Creating Safety in Feedback with Joel Silverstone

When a manager wants to give feedback or an observation, it's that they want to share. They want to make that other person try to understand something. And that becomes their intention. I want you to understand what you're doing is such and such. So, one of the ways to make it feel safe is to, what do you want that feedback to do? So, changing your intention. What do you want that feedback to do? And even such a word of like collaboration, or trust, or growth. And maybe if it is, I have some observations. I have some observations. And I'd like for us to discuss them. I want to get your perspective. And it's really about an opportunity here for growth. Welcome to Management Development Unlocked, where you will learn how to nurture a world-class management team. And now your host, Eric Girard.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Management Development Unlocked. I'm really glad you're here. While you still have your device in your hand, I'd like to ask 3 favors as per usual. Number 1, please subscribe to the show. 2, please share the show with just one other person. And 3, go to gerardtrainingsolutions.com and download my free ebook on becoming a manager. Today, I have Joel Silverstone with me. Welcome to the show, Joel! Who are you and what do you do?

Thank you, Eric. First off, I'm a loyal subscriber to the podcast. Yes, Joel Silverstone. I'm the Senior Professional Skills Facilitator at the Great Canadian Training and Consulting Company. I joined about 2 years ago. And that was because there was— what the company saw was there was a gap in basically in the soft skills for a lot of people. And there was a lot more demand. And so, I joined them about 2 years ago and redesigned or created all the new soft skills courses, everything from time management, delegation, to new manager courses, to difficult conversations. And with that, I bring my 20 years of experience where I'm a facilitator, a speaker on communication skills. And then in my former life, I was a professional actor. So I also bring some of those acting techniques into the training as well, because, Eric, I think we could both agree training should also be experiential, should be insightful, and it should also be some fun.

Yeah, heavy on the fun. Do you bring any improv to your work?

I'm also a graduate of the Second City Conservatory program. So yes, improv is a big part of what I do. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. You didn't tell me this before we started recording, and now I'm very—

Well, we gotta have some surprises.

Now I'm very interested.

Did you, have you done any improv?

No, I've only taken a couple of acting classes. I think I'm a frustrated actor, and that's why I like to teach and facilitate. So we should talk. Maybe I'll take a trip out to Toronto and come see you.

Yeah, that'd be great.

Yeah, cool. I have a series of questions for you, Joel, and these are a little bit different than my usual questions. So I'm excited to see where this goes. We're gonna talk today about feedback and why feedback is important. Since that's a strength of yours, Joel. So, this is a management development show and I'm talking primarily to new managers. So, why is giving feedback important for new managers?

Probably because it's one of the hardest conversations a new manager is going to have. If there's no feedback, then there's no communication with the people on their team. And there's no communication with them as individuals. And there's no opportunity for those individuals and those teams to know what What is it that they're doing well and how can they continue to do that well? And what is it that they need to improve upon? And it's a difficult conversation because the new manager is probably building it up. How am I going to do this so it doesn't sound like criticism? Or as many of us have gone through, feedback for us was not a good experience. And we have a sort of negative connotation when we even hear the word feedback. I always say that's a great way to get your emotions up. It's kind of like when you receive that text which says, we need to talk. And it's the same thing. I need to give you some feedback. Emotions rise. So, new managers need to get comfortable and make that a part of their new behavior. And it might be a bit uncomfortable at the beginning. But like anything, like riding a bike or learning to drive standard, or learning to mountain bike going down a hill, you will learn in stages. And it is just even that 10% of trying to do some feedback is just going to have a huge improvement and a huge ripple effect on your team and your confidence as a new manager.

Couldn't agree more. Absolutely agree. I got a new one this week. I have some observations. Okay, that was a new one for me, and that triggered me as bad as I've got some feedback, because luckily the person who delivered the observations is a friend. He was very kind. He was very complete in the way he did this so that it didn't leave me feeling like I was bad or wrong or stupid. He did a fantastic job.

Right.

But he sent me this note on a Friday, hey, I have some observations. I'd like to talk Monday. And I was like, all weekend I'm like, oh geez, he's gonna call me a fraud. I'm gonna get busted. He's gonna call me out. Imposter syndrome was looming its ugly head. And it was really, it's interesting how even just word choice when you're just asking your direct report or your colleague, Yeah, to speak, you know, can we have some time to talk? Can be really triggering. I got another one not long ago after a meeting, and, and the person just said, let's chat, right? And it was like, about what? Yeah, what's wrong?

Well, that— yeah, I love that example because I could just imagine what's going through your mind as soon as you hear, I have some observations. Let's talk about acting here. You start writing the script. All right. You start writing the script for both sides. Okay. Their observation is probably going to be this. Well, then I'm going to counter with that. And then they're going to say this. And then they're going to say that. And your emotions build up. So, by the time Monday morning arrives, well, your emotions are already at like a 9. And probably also, well, I guess that same person who said, I have an observation for you, their temperature is also probably at a 9. That's probably why they even delayed it because they're trying to maybe even figure out how they want to position that. But that whole anticipation is such a great thing because that's what feedback should not be. It should not be about, let's chat. I have an observation. And then time builds up because you're allowing for a lot of anticipation to build up. And the thing about anticipation is I don't know if you remember the movie Jaws.

Yeah.

But we don't actually see the shark until an hour and 21 minutes into the movie. It's all about the music that just builds up that da-da-da-da-da. And the same thing, I have an observation. I have an observation. And you hear the music going the entire weekend while that's happening.

Oh, that's a beautiful example. Yeah, really nice. So, this is a very natural segue into my next question, which is what can managers do to make feedback feel safe? We've talked a lot about how sometimes it's just a word that would trigger the other person. Observation. chat, I have feedback and alarm bells go off. So, how can a manager take the edge off?

Well, first off, it even starts with for the manager. And we talked about this before is when a manager wants to give feedback or an observation, it's that they want to share. They want to make that other person try to understand something. And that becomes their intention. I want you to understand What you're doing is such and such. So, one of the ways to make it feel safe is to— what do you want that feedback to do? So, changing your intention. What do you want that feedback to do? And even such a word of like collaboration, or trust, or growth. And maybe if it is, I have some observations. I have some observations and I'd like for us to discuss them. I want to get your perspective. And it's really about an opportunity here for growth. So, even if there's, as you said, like an observation about what, It's still going to be an observation. But how can we make it somewhat safer? And if you start off as the manager with that intention of, what do I want this feedback to do? And just changing that word from, I want them to understand, to, I want this to be about how can I collaborate or how can I help them grow? Because the truth is we all do want feedback. We all want to know how can we be better at what we do? How can we be more efficient, more productive, more happier? And feedback can also be— we always think of feedback as a negative connotation. But feedback can also be about positive things. It can also be, I saw, I observed something that you did really well and I want to share this with you.

Hmm.

And in fact, when people do receive positive feedback and very specific like, Eric, when you did this with that client and I saw their reaction, That was a great example of— and so, when people get very specific examples, 92% of the time, that person will repeat that specific action when they get praise and a specific action as opposed to just sort of general feedback.

Yeah, absolutely. I love your example about Jaws. You know, I love the idea of adding more so that the trigger word doesn't take over. I have some feedback for your growth. I have an observation for your growth. And your focus here on getting your intent right, your heart right, reminds me an awful lot of Crucial Conversations, which is one of my favorite books and my favorite classes to teach. And it's like, before you even open your mouth, get your mind right, get your heart right so that when you speak, you're able to be more persuasive and not abrasive.

Absolutely. Start with heart. And that's what Crucial Conversations says. And that's exactly it. And it is about switching that mindset. The first question you had was about why is it so important for new managers. And because as a new manager, you're there to help the people around you be and feel more successful at what it is that they do. And so, already with that intention again of collaboration or the idea that feedback is about growth. That's the whole idea of feedback. It's about growing a person. It's not about trying to change a person. Because if you're trying to change them, Good luck.

You know, one of the things I've, I've noticed, so I've been, I've been doing this for 30 years. I was in Silicon Valley for 20. And one of the things that I've walked away with is, is when with people, pretty much what you see is what you get. And you're not gonna, you're not gonna change anybody. My wife's been trying to change me our entire marriage. It's, it's not gonna happen.

Right.

I am better about picking up my socks, but you know, it's, there's not gonna be a massive transformation. So learning how to adjust and adapt yourself as a manager and adjust your style to get the most out of person A, person B, person C, I have found has been much more useful than trying to make them do something, be different.

I like the way you word that. I'm trying to get the better of them as opposed to trying to change them. And that's a great shift. I like that. I'm going to borrow that if that's okay.

Please.

Yeah, yeah.

This podcast is in the public domain. You may have anything you want.

Great!

What are some communication skills managers can use in giving feedback?

Well, there's basically 3 main ways that we communicate, right? We listen. We ask questions. We make statements. And often, we go to number 3, which is we make statements. And when we're thinking about giving feedback, or in your case, I have an observation, it means I have to make statements. Well, what we want to really focus in communicating is we want listening and empathy. And I know you're a big fan of empathy. Listening is the gateway to all of that. Listening to not solve the problem and listening for what is important to the other person. What do they care about? What do you see? What do you hear? And so, one of the improv exercises I like to do with people, for example, is an exercise where One person has a minute to share a problem and the other person listens without taking notes. And at the end is not allowed to solve the problem and is not allowed to ask a question because when you're asking a question, you're trying to solve a problem. Have you tried this or have you tried that? And all they're allowed to do at the end of that minute is to say, what did that person care about? What did they value? What was their belief? Or what was even sort of the unspoken? What did you see? Uh, from that person. So listening, number one.

I would fail that so bad. Oh my goodness. I remember in high school once I was, I took a counseling class, you know, to learn how to counsel. And I was in an exercise where the other person was presenting a problem to me and I couldn't even let them finish speaking before I was jumping in going, why didn't you do this? And why can't you do that? And yeah. And, you know, I'm a very— I'm a— in the DiSC universe, I'm a high I, high D. So, I'm very expressive and I want to get stuff done.

Right.

And it's hard for me to shut up and listen. And living with 3 women, I'm having to learn to just, okay, please tell me more, tell me more, and not try to solve because that's my default.

Well, the fact that you recognize it already is a huge step because a lot of people don't even recognize that that's their go-to. So, the fact that you recognize that you're a Well, first off, it's coming from a good place. It's well-intentioned. You're thinking fast. So, you see it clearly how it's unfolding. So, that's also a challenge to step back and speak to the emotions first before the logic. And that's sort of the second part of communication is we want to speak to the person's emotions before we come in with logic. Because especially when we're giving feedback, we're talking about emotions are already high, that whole Jaws thing. The anticipation is built up. The music is up there. So, your adrenaline is already high. So, we want to speak to the emotions first. And then, their temperature starts to come down. And now, we can start to problem solve together. And that's the other idea of feedback, which is you want to be soft on the person and hard on the problem.

Hmm.

So, I like to say everybody loves chocolate. So, even if you think the other person is not going to get it, well, just remember at least maybe the one thing you have in common maybe is you both like chocolate. So, there's a human being in there. And to to recognize that. And the goal would be that we're both looking at the problem together. And so, that's if you can listen and listen to the emotions. And then, you're able to really separate that person from the problem. And that's not from me. That's from the book From Getting to Yes, which is the book of negotiation skills, which is probably 50 years old. But it makes sense. It separates the person from the problem. And I just like to say, soft on the person, hard on the problem.

Yeah. Wow, you reminded me. I haven't read that book in quite a while. It's time for a reread.

It's still timely. That's the thing. It really is about even when you're saying no, it's still say yes to the person but no to the problem.

Yeah, that's very wise. Excellent. Thanks.

Great.

Well, my next question is, how does giving feedback have an impact on the organization or the team?

And this is what I've observed. And I'm sure you've seen this, Eric, again, with all the experiences you've had. And the same thing, in 20 years of work, with leaders is when I see that a leader who is, or a manager is really good at giving feedback to one person. Well, it creates a ripple effect within the teams because there's that trust. So, when you're being called into the manager's office because they have an observation, you feel already a lot safer. Your temperature is already a lot lower. And so, the ripple effect that that has is that This person, this manager becomes like a rock star within the organization. And then, people go, okay, well, what makes this person the rock star? And then, they want to know that and they start modulating it. So, it's the ripple effect that it has.

I like it. Yeah, that one pebble in the pool.

That one pebble in the pool. And what I'll say also about that is the other thing about feedback it makes me think is that anticipation. We were never called into the principal's office because we got an A. So, you know, when you said, I have an observation, it's the same thing as all of a sudden it takes us back to being called into the principal's office because we're going to be shamed or we're going to be reprimanded or, yeah, you were never called in because, hey, way to go. You got an A in chemistry. It's no, it's about you did this, you did this. And it's personal. You disappointed us. It's always, it was always personal. It was never, how can we solve this problem together?

Oh, I'm having flashbacks.

Yes, sorry.

I come from an era where the principal's office was a very scary place. So, well, moving on so that nobody winds up reliving any PTSD.

Right.

I would like to give you the opportunity to plug a product or a service if you have any.

Well, you know, as I mentioned at the beginning about joining Great Canadian Training about 2 years ago and redesigning and delivering their other soft skills courses, their professional skills courses, because Gricone Training is mostly known for their technical courses. So Excel, software training, PowerPoint, those types of courses. So what we've done now is we've combined the software training and the soft skills training in something called the GREAT Series. So in the GREAT Series, there's building our presentation skills with the PowerPoint. So in one day, for example, you spend the morning working on your PowerPoint, with the software training instructor, and then you'd work in the afternoon with me on then how to deliver it. So, it's a really unique concept, I think, where you get to work on having great-looking slides and great content, and then how do you actually then deliver it? And then, the same thing with Teams. We've got the same idea with Teams, which you spend the morning, how can I best use MS Teams, as an example, all the tools and ways to create communication within that? And then, in the afternoon, we're working on team building, exercises and activities and ways to communicate as a team. So, that's our great series on building great teams and building great presentations.

Great! Well, how can folks get a hold of you if they want to take advantage?

Well, they can reach us at greatcanadientraining.ca, greatcanadientraining.ca. And you could check out all the courses there. You could also email info@greatcanadientraining.ca or email me directly, joel@greatcanadientraining.ca.

Perfect. Good deal. Let's move on to the speed round. This is where we get a chance to learn a little bit more about you. Nothing terribly personal. First question, if you could interview anyone, if you were sitting in my seat, who would it be and why?

Can I say 2 people?

Sure.

All right.

And it can be living or dead.

Yeah, they're both living and it's Tina Fey and Alan Alda. And not to say that I'd want them together at the same time, but I guess I grew up with Alan Alda in M*A*S*H. And then, uh, and then I find myself coming back to watching like Tina Fey in 30 Rock, and it's the same thing. It's, it's this somehow this, this balance of where they're able to, to self-deprecate and do it with a confidence and courage. And it almost feels like they're telling jokes in the sense of humor where it's like, am I the only one getting it? Like, I can't believe they have the courage to, to make these kinds of jokes. And especially Tina Fey, who writes this and, and got it on— like, I was— I'm rewatching 30 Rock. Like, who's the audience? But so I, I wouldn't even know what it is I'd want to ask them. I would just sort of be like, just sort of like, uh, uh, I would be like that the whole time.

You know, you and I have a lot in common, and one of the things is, is growing up with M*A*S*H. Yeah, I watched M*A*S*H every night at 7 o'clock at my house, and I remember not long ago binge-watching the entire series from series 1, episode 1, all the way through the end. And it was just— there's just something very, very comforting about it, even, even when it touched on touchy subjects.

Yeah. And it's, it's that M*A*S*H was that balance of, of zany, you know, Marx Brothers humor, but, and also ahead of its time, uh, in empathy and, and political political humor as well.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Some of the stuff hasn't stood the test of time. Some of the things would not be able to be remade now as far as M*A*S*H goes, but still way ahead of its time in a lot of other areas.

Yeah, yeah, especially the movie, I think would probably get chopped up pretty good.

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

My next question is, what is your favorite vacation spot and why?

Well, you know, as you say, we have, we have a lot in common because I'm gonna, I'm gonna guess this is probably similar to you as well, which is I'm gonna say anywhere that has mountains and ocean. So I live, I live on the east side now in Toronto, but spent quite a few years living in Vancouver. And Vancouver just felt like home and just that combination of the mountains and the ocean. And then a couple years ago, we went, we took a trip to California and, and yeah, and it was like, that's, that was really it. So anywhere where there's mountains and ocean or mountains and water, mountains and lakes, you got this combination of you can go into the mountains, you can go swimming all in the same day. I'm happy. I'm good.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And you're right. We do have that in common. Living across the sound from Seattle, I can see the Olympic Mountains out my front door and from my living room window can see the Hood Canal. And it's just, it's really, really nice to have this all around and not within an hour you're someplace amazing.

Oh, really handy. Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's really nice. Yeah, yeah, that's inspiring.

Yeah, it is. All right, where would you most like to travel aside from a place with mountains and ocean?

Right?

No, you know what, I'm gonna let you have that one. You can, you can throw that in as well.

Well, you know, uh, what I would— what I've always wanted to do is I've always— and I don't know if it really does exist, but somehow I read that you could ski from Switzerland to Italy, and like the bus kind of follows you around as you, you start off in, in the Alps and you ski skiing somewhere from Switzerland and you end up in the Alps in Italy and the bus follows you from, from village to village with your, with your luggage. And so every night you're in a different inn and you've, you've skied through that. And it just, I don't know if it's The Sound of Music that's playing in my background. And I'm pretty sure that does exist. So I'm, I'm, I'm going to find it where there's that excursion where you're skiing from Switzerland to Italy.

I've never heard of that, but that sounds great. Yeah. Oh, tell me how it is. Yeah, I will. Last question. What brings you the most joy in your life?

I would say, you know, it's constantly changing. And I would say right now, what can give me a quick hit of joy is I'll go early in the morning and down to the lake here and see the sunrise. And I'll— and I take my skipping rope. And I go down there and skipping rope as the sun is coming up over the lake. And that's like, just like, you know, quick hit of joy right there. Does everything feels good in that moment?

And some cardio to boot.

And cardio to boot. Well, that's, yeah, well, that's, it's, it's, it's, you're, you're getting the, the endorphins going and you're getting this almost looks like IMAX movie happening in front of you as the sun is coming up over the lake.

Wow, that sounds amazing.

Yeah.

Great. Well, Joel, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you all for listening. Please subscribe, comment, share, and connect with me on LinkedIn. We'll catch you in the next one. Bye-bye.

Thank you, Eric. Thank you for listening to this episode of Management Development Unlocked.

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