Episode 13: “Unlocking Communication Mastery with Joel Silverstone”

I know when I started out many years ago, people at the end of the day would say, oh, TJ, you're great. This was a great training. Fantastic. They don't say that anymore.

I grew up, I'm in Canada, and so I grew up French and English. And, um, and the more I'm living in Toronto, which is more the English side, the more I'm losing my French. We did a few of them with different groups, and every first day was always the same. First hour screaming at me, even though I'm coming from the outside. I don't know them. They don't know me.

Our guest today Has an acting background. Joel Silverstone is the founder of TFR. This feels right. He brings his experiences as an actor. How— to me, that's such a big challenge. Quite often people come in like, well, I can't really change the speech. We've been working on it for 3 months and, you know, investor relations has signed off on it. Marketing has signed off on it.

And then again, what I've learned all, uh, you know, from that horrible sales sales training was I have to, I have to adapt and realize this is not— people are being bored. People are— this is not of interest.

Who are some of the best communicators you can think of in the entire world? Chances are it might be someone like a George Clooney, a Meryl Streep, top actors, actresses. They command the stage. They command our attention. Wouldn't it be nice To be able to communicate like that. Well, our guest today has an acting background. Joel Silverstone is the founder of TFR, This Feels Right. He brings his experiences as an actor, as someone from the theatrical world, and he teaches executives from everyone from Microsoft executives, TD Bank, others, Abbott Bear, you name it. He is a wild successful communications coach in demand around the world. And we're very happy to welcome him today to the TJ Walker Success Show. Joel Silverstone, thanks for being our guest today. Great.

It felt like the Muppet entrance. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. Yes, thank you, TJ. Okay.

So Joel, first tell us your approach to Helping someone be a better communicator. Everyone has their own approach. And I'm as guilty as the next communications coach that I often think I have the only right way and everyone else is doing it wrong. I want to step back from that and sort of get rid of some of my own preconceptions today and learn from you. Tell us your basic approach of how you help people communicate more effectively based on your own background and skill set.

I love the introduction you gave me about the acting because it was such an interesting thing. All my life, my young life, my adult life, I was studying acting and looking at scripts. And then about 25 years ago, and that's another story, but I'll get into that later. But about 25 years ago, I got into the corporate world and helping executives and their teams to be better communicators. And what's always astounded me Because in acting, it's so clear. Your job as an actor is very simple. It's not about you. It is about moving the other person in the scene to have an effect on them. And the only way you're going to have an effect on them is to actually genuinely listen to what they were saying so that— and especially when you're doing film acting, you have to do take after take after take. You have to be so present. And that's what's astounded me in the corporate world is even in the per— even our personal world, uh, when we're communicating, how we are so not present. We're busy thinking ahead. And we always think actors are thinking ahead of the lines they're going to say. No, we're not thinking ahead, because if we're thinking ahead, then I have this look. I'm not connecting with you. Uh, so I have to be really present. Um, trust that what's going to happen next. And then the second part about the acting also that they're bringing to communication is 2 things. One is, why did the person say that? So when someone writes a script, whether theater or film, there's a purpose why the character said that. And so in our way that we communicate, we have to be almost like detectives. Why did the person say that? And then the second part is the miscommunication. What was missing? And so we have to go, Hmm, maybe I better ask some questions to get to make sure. And I'll share some examples later about what happened. So, that's at the heart of what— and like you said, I've gone around the world and worked in sales and leadership and customer service and coaching. And it always astounds me how they missed, and I'll use sort of a sports reference, they missed that turning point moment in the conversation. And it happens often within the first few seconds.

Joel, how do you actually teach someone to be in the moment? Because, you know, no offense to our good friends at Microsoft, and I've worked with people there too. But if you come in thinking, well, here's my PowerPoint deck, and I've got to go to this next slide, and I've got to get to this next point, it's kind of the opposite of seeming like I'm here in the moment sharing with you. How do you get them to make that transition?

Oh, that's such a good question because that's— because number one, I think what you said is so true, which is one, how do we do it? Because everybody thinks they're pretty good communicators. So that's number one. I do a lot. I bring some of the acting background into it and I'll do a lot of role play. So I'll become that customer. I'll become that employee. I'll become that other person that they're struggling with. And then I'll be able to sort of say, hey, I'll sort of give a guided learning. And as I'm acting really in the moment and I'll say, here's that moment that you missed. When you missed that moment, I felt ignored. I felt rejected. I felt small. And they're like, oh, I never even— I was so busy thinking about closing the sale or I was so busy thinking about getting you to change or getting you to see this. I love this one. They say, getting you to see my point of view, getting you to see, getting you onto my agenda. And that's really what I teach is how do you And it's a bit of emotional intelligence too, which is, how do you manage your own needs, but also notice what's going on with the other person?

How do you tell if a training is successful? I know when I started out many years ago, people at the end of the day would say, oh, TJ, you're great. This was a great training. Fantastic. They don't say that anymore. Now, they say, wow, TJ, that guy's great. She's fantastic. If I can be half as good as she is or he is, I'm going to be the star of my industry. They're pointing to a video of themselves. So that's, that's my stamp. When that happens, I know a transformation occurred. How do you define yourself as having had a successful training? What metrics do you use?

Yeah, you know, the metrics is in the moment. Because, like I said, well, I'll incorporate a lot of roleplay, which is, you know, Words that nobody wants to hear in training because when you say role play, it's like saying when the doctor says, oh, I don't like the looks of that. So, but I call it practice instead of calling it role play. And in the moment, we'll do a lot of redo moments so that it's not just a theory. It becomes a new muscle memory to be able to practice that. And to me, that's when I see success is when someone is able to incorporate the feedback and make that small change because it really is a small change. But as you know, it's easy at the end of the day. If someone leaves with one thing that they can change, one thing that they can do differently, then I think that's a success. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Certainly, often it's one thing that makes someone awful. If you can get rid of that, you've helped them immensely. Someone can have a great voice, nice clothes. If their idea of giving a presentation is reading to people because I don't want to get anything wrong, and you get them to stop reading, well, that alone is the difference of day and night. Sometimes communication is kind of a binary thing of you were awful, now you're interesting and great.

Yeah.

Okay, you know, Joel, coming from the acting world, the costumes do sort of help or hurt the overall impression. What is your advice When you're working with executives on how to dress? Because sometimes they overdress. Like, I wouldn't wear this if I'm going to work with a tech client. Sometimes they underdress. How do you advise people on costuming? Which, let's face it, a suit, a tie, a casual shirt, it's all a type of a costume.

It is all a type of costume. And there really is. So what's going to be— number one, what's going to make you feel confident? And then But part 2 of that, and, you know, TJ, as you notice, the world has just changed so much. Like a few weeks ago, I was working with these consultants in Chicago. And one of them was in, you know, and I've been so— I've been working with them for years. I was so used to them that they started off in suits and then they became more casual. And then it was like, it's okay to show up in jeans for the training. And then this person showed up in a skirt and high heels. And, you know, one would normally say they were male. Now we're saying it's— we're calling it them. Absolutely. And, you know, they were brilliant and pleasant and everything. And so that was— the world has changed. So it's hard for me to say wear a suit, don't wear a suit. I'm still— I'm a bit like you. I'm a bit old school in the sense that I like to show up and look what I would call professional. So with the consultants, and if they're wearing jeans, I'll wear dark jeans and I'll wear a sport blazer with a shirt. Um, and I might— and I'll still maybe wear nice running shoes or just casual, more casual shoes. Uh, when I started, when I worked with the bankers, when I started, I would show up full, full suit and everything. And now I've got a closet full of suits that I basically never wear because even going to the bankers, they're not— we're not wearing suits anymore. It pretty much is But I have to feel confident in what I wear. And so that's what it boils down to for yourself. It's if you're, you know, and I remember working with a colleague and the whole time she was just thinking about, oh, why did I wear this? I don't feel good. I don't feel like myself. You have to feel like yourself. But like in everything that you do, whether you're presenting or communicating, it's about how can you bring out the best in yourself? What is, what is my best version of me in that moment?

I think you really put your finger on it. You got to feel good about it. And the worst thing The last thing you want to have happen is to be up speaking in front of people saying, oh God, I shouldn't have worn this. You don't want anything chipping away, creating any negative feelings. You don't want to have to think about what you're wearing once you're up speaking or sitting down speaking or in front of a camera speaking. You want to just know, this is what I planned. I mean, my general rule of thumb is wear something that doesn't confuse your audience, that is consistent with what they expect you to be in that particular situation.

Right.

And it does change. I'm like you. Years ago, the bankers all had suit and ties on. I was just in a dress like you for many years until recently. And I looked at the data of my YouTube channel and I found that for whatever reason, my audience really responded much better To videos of me, frankly, old videos where I was wearing a suit and tie. And I don't know if that's because they think of me as the corporate trainer or I'm over 60 now and they just are more comfortable with someone like me in a suit and tie. So that's the only reason I'm wearing a suit and tie. I'm in Florida. I'd much rather be in a tank top and bathing suit right now. Right, right, right.

100 degrees.

This seems to fit. So yeah, we have a question from our audience. Sidon writes, how can we be unique in group discussions? And how do you gain attention when you're in a group discussion?

Yeah, we've got extroverts and introverts in a group discussion. The introverts often get ignored because the extroverts speak a lot. And so maybe the heart of this question is maybe, you know, Siddharth, maybe you're an introvert. Yes. Okay. I just see that in the comments. An introvert. Exactly. And that's probably why, you know, how do I do that? Let me give you— I'm going to share with you one of the rules of improvisation. And one of the rules of improvisation is first thought, best thought. And what happens as an introvert is you're missing the moment to maybe come in with a comment, to come in with an idea, to come in with a thought. thought because that perfection brain is going and then you miss the moment. And then you're maybe beating yourself up about it. Gosh, that was my moment to speak. And now you're missing what's going on. So trust your instincts that whatever you're going to say is going to be of value. Most importantly, because you use the word unique, it is your thought, your idea, your perspective. Whether it's right or wrong, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you're contributing. And when you're contributing, People start to look at you and you start to develop more confidence because you've opened your mouth. Our biggest challenge is that this and this is 2 separate muscles. So, the brain is one muscle going until you speak. This will all just be going in overdrive all the time. I hope that helps. And TJ, I don't know if you have thoughts as well on this.

That's a lot of good points there, Joel. I know you have people all the time say, I'm okay talking about the company, but Now, I'm going to a job interview. I'm uncomfortable talking about myself, promoting myself. I'm interested in your tips there, number one. But number two, let's do a case study right now because you have a podcast, you have a business, you have products. I want to just give you the floor and allow you to pitch to this audience because we applaud pitching here. We want self-promotion because we're all about it. Tell us about your business. If you have free giveaways, if you want to invite people to your podcast, let's hear it and then we'll talk about it. And then you'll tell us, I'll come back on screen. You'll tell us what you were trying to do and why you were doing it. So let's just hear Joel pitch right now.

Yeah, let's start. Let's start with that, with the giveaway idea, which is if you are interested in being a guest on my podcast, This Feels Right, which is all about communication skills and how we influence others. I can't guarantee you that you'll be a guest on, but I would love to have a chat with you and see if we can have a great conversation about influencing skills, which ties in also to This Feels Right and why I came up with the name for this company. What I've noticed is that in conversations, and especially because my clients have always been in that more sort of technical world or analytical world, banking and IT consulting. And logic is a big push in that. But what was missing is that people react first emotionally. So, if we want to be able to influence someone, we often miss the moment because we go right in with the logic. And then, we're wondering why isn't this conversation moving forward? Why isn't a connection happening? Why isn't trust forming? And because the first thing that happens with that other person is they react emotionally. And this has been proven by science that our first reaction is always going to be emotional. And the first thing we ask ourselves is, within the first couple of seconds, does this feel right? In other words, does it feel right? Do I like this person? Do I respect this person? Does this person seem to respect me? Is this person listening to me? Is this person making eye contact with me? Is this person matching their voice and tone with me? Does it feel right? And then, the second part of influencing is when we start to introduce the data or the logic. But logic and data that supports the emotions of what was happening. So then, the person, the other person will go, yeah, I think this is right. And so then, when emotions and logic come together, then they go, I know this is right. So that's why I wanted to— that's why this feels right is so important. And working with—

Yeah.

Recently, I was working with wealth advisors at a bank. And their challenge was they had a preconceived notion of their clients. They know them well. And as bankers, they want to go right for the numbers. But with wealth or possible wealth or gaining wealth, there's all kinds of stories. There's family. There's legacy. There's concerns. There's worries. And if you don't speak to those emotions first, whether when you're presenting your ideas, when you're listening, if you just keep going to logic, they're wondering why are their clients not more engaged. So, it's really important about really, this feels right is about how do I connect quickly with someone, create a deep connection and a deep relationship. And it's focusing on those listening skills, on those empathy skills. Great questions to ask. Recently, I was working also with a high executive and they had a disagreement with another high executive. And so they've kind of let a lot of time go by and they realized, I need to apologize. And they were reaching out to me and go, how do I do this? And so we worked on the letter, which is taking away those minimizing words like, maybe I got a little disrespectful or maybe I got a little upset. It's like, no, I came across as disrespectful and that wasn't my intention because I do respect you. So, little tweaks in the language like that. But the main point of my story is, what do you do after that letter has been sent? And I asked the executive the question. So, what are you going to do now that that letter has been sent? And the executive said, well, I'm probably going to just continue to make small talk. How was your weekend? And that kind of stuff. So here's where this feels right comes in because it's not about making small talk now. You've you you put the matzo ball out there. You put you said I respect you and I want to create a relationship. So now it's going from small talk and I asked how can you make that more of a deeper moment? And I was like okay well we just went on this big sort of trip all together all the executives and we did something. relatively large in another city. And I could talk about the experience of that and maybe what their thoughts were. And also, this other person's working on presentation skills. And I could say, how do you feel about presenting? What's your secret potion to that? What's your secret magic? And so, that's exactly what This Feels Right is about, is about going from making small talk into deeper talk and picking up on those key moments to create engagement quickly on the emotional side.

Fantastic job, Joel. And for those of you watching, we didn't arrange this in advance. I didn't say, hey, I'm going to give you, you know, 3 minutes. Be prepared. Prepare your speech. I just tossed it at him. That's the sign of a real pro. He sees an opportunity to share his passion, share his expertise. He took it. He didn't say, well, I wasn't prepared to give a speech today. He just hopped in. And that's one of the things I find consistent among all great communicators is They like to communicate. An opportunity comes up and you have 6 months to plan. Great. An opportunity comes up and you have 6 seconds to plan. You do that too. So very well done, Joel. Now let's go behind the scenes. We, we really try to go behind the curtains, behind the scenes, what really goes on in communication and what people do and how people like you and me work and help people. Tell us what you were doing. What were you thinking about as you were presenting? Because yes, you certainly came across as in the moment, but you had some objectives of what you were trying to do as well.

Yeah, I love that question because, again, it sort of ties into acting, which is I love the behind-the-scenes moment as well as how do you get into character. But I love this behind the scenes of what's my self-talk, basically. kind of going on while I'm speaking. And while I'm speaking, the whole time I'm thinking about, I want to make sure that I'm making this relevant. So I'm sort of keep checking myself every few seconds. Is this relevant? Is this creating connection? Is this flowing from one thought to the next? Is this thought supporting the thought that I just said? Do I— you know, I started talking about writing the letter and it's like, oh no, that's not the main point. But instead of saying— instead of just all of a sudden dropping it, I acknowledge it and go, that's not the main point. Where I really want to go is this. And I made that decision in the moment because I felt that was going to be more about connecting and more of a story versus a how-to write an apology letter.

We have more questions coming in from our viewers. I'm from a non-English background. But no English. But at time of speaking, I'm not able to speak fluently. But in my mind, I can speak like TJ confidently. So what do you think about this?

As someone who grew up bilingual, I grew up— I'm in Canada. And so I grew up French and English. And, and the more I'm living in Toronto, which is more the English side, the more I'm losing my French side. So I feel very self-conscious when I have to speak French or when I go back to Quebec or— and I've delivered some training in France sometimes and have to go there and it's like, oh boy, I'm really self-conscious. I found the most important thing is speak slowly. I will never speak the way I speak in English, which is I can think fast, I can speak fast, but in French I can't think fast because I'm translating everything in English. And so there's like a time delay. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to say less and I'm going to speak slower and maybe even ask and just acknowledge it and just say— and I've done this before because I've made some mistakes in French. I thought the word for French for corporate was corporel, and it turns out corporel means you're naked. And so I kept saying, oh, you know, we're talking about corporel communication, and everyone's laughing. And so now, I just acknowledge it. I go, if I make a mistake, if I say something that doesn't make any sense, call me on it. Don't just nod your heads or even worse, laugh at me.

Yeah. Although, at some level, I do like a laugh because if someone's laughing, it means they're not ignoring you, staring at their cell phone. They're not daydreaming. They are at least listening. They are responding. They are reacting at some level. But preferably, they're laughing with us and not At us. But I get you.

Yeah, well, because, you know, and you, you make those— I make those mistakes all the time because it's like, you know, you'll say like, uh, and every language has different meanings. So I'll say, you know, we're going to come back to the room, meaning the training room, but we're in a hotel. So when I say we're going to come back to the room, it's like we're going to come back to my hotel room is what it sounds like in French. So again, a lot, a lot of things where it can be sort of lost in translation. But that's why I just say just call me because I want to learn too. I want to I want to get better at my— at how I communicate in this language.

Joel, you've been in this business for a long time. We've all had good days, bad days, successful days and unsuccesses. In a moment, I want to know about one of your worst training experiences ever, but also one of your best. I mean, I can tell you, I've had situations where a client just fell down on the ground, cried, went into the fetal position, they were so nervous and uncomfortable. I had one person stand up At the end of the day, when asked, what did you learn? He said, I learned this was the worst waste of time in my entire career. This was completely useless. Now, it happened to be his most passionate, interesting speech of the day. But that's sort of the, you know, worst-case scenarios. I've also had a situation where I worked with someone; they gave a fantastic TED Talk, invited to give another TED Talk, the main stage, millions of views. book deal, book deal option to do a movie by Steven Spielberg. Pretty good success. I want to hear, what's one of the worst situations you ever had in a training? And what's one of the best?

Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to top one of the best. I don't think I'll be able to top the TED deal and Steven Spielberg. But let's go to the worst because everyone wants every, you know, we go to the racetrack to see the car crash. So let's go to, let's go to the worst. Um, let's go to the Rolodex here and see which one are the worst here that I got. Um, you know, absolutely, I've been doing this for 25 years and there's always going to be a learning experience. Um, you know, one of the things about being in this business, of course, is that there's— you do get, uh, assessments, you do get reviewed, you know, the smile sheet, so to speak, afterwards. So you, you kind of know if things didn't go as planned. But sometimes even without the smile sheet You know, this is failing big time. And I was just a few years ago, it was like a sales conference. It was a private sales conference for a company. And I was brought in and I was out of my element. I was listening too much to what the client was trying to accomplish. And they usually have like a laundry list of things that they want to accomplish. And I was so focused and so worried that I wasn't checking off those boxes. that I wasn't being present in the training. I wasn't being myself. Um, and these people were not— um, they were doing selling the same way they've always been selling. So now they were being told to sell a different way and sell a different product because they're also being taken over by another company. So their emotions were also heightened because, am I going to—

People always love change, right?

Yeah, yeah. Nobody loves change. Exactly. Are my emotions— the emotions are are high. And instead of doing that, you know, some of the feedback I got was I was mean. And as you've known me for like 20 minutes, I hopefully don't come across as someone who's mean. And so that really threw me for a loop. And I realized I came across as mean because I was so focused on my agenda and so worried about how I was going to come across and that the client was going to go, we'll never hire you again, which is what happened because I was. I was mean. I didn't actually create a worthwhile experience.

Everybody's mean to someone. My daughter was screaming. My 11-year-old daughter was screaming how mean I was last night because I wouldn't let her watch Squid Game. So everybody's mean to someone.

Well, there's, there's firm. You're being firm with your daughter. And probably fair. But you know, mean is like when you maybe— when you try to make someone feel small. Which is kind of what I was doing because I was so out of my element. I was so uncomfortable. And that was the mean part, which is when you try to make someone feel small.

Mm-hmm.

Let's switch over to the good part then. Let's— the best ever training. And it didn't start out that way. This was— I was brought in for 4-day in-person training for customer service. So TJ, you know, if you've ever delivered this and if you've ever been on the other end of it, You know, as soon as you hear the word 4 days of customer service training, what am I gonna learn? That is just like, like people were already rolling their eyes.

I confess, this may sound horrible. The first thing that popped into my mind was, wow, you sold 4 days at once? That must have been a really hefty fee. But that's from my own perspective as a small business owner. Please continue.

They wanted the 4 days. I'm like, this is 2 days at most. Like, no, we gotta— and they were right because basically, these people had been in the job for 20 years. They've been doing customer service for 20 years. It was a unionized environment. Again, change. Their job was changing where they were sort of in a— first off, their job is where they are often verbally abused and occasionally physically threatened. And their job was where they're in a protective booth and they were taking the protective booth away and they wanted them to circulate amongst the people that were sometimes threatening them and to deliver customer service. And there's 50 people in the room in person. And I did this a few times. It was sort of rinse and repeat. We did a few of them with different groups. And every first day was always the same. First hour screaming at me, even though I'm coming from the outside. I don't know them. They don't know me. But I'm the face of the problem. You don't know anything about us. You, you're, this is, you're the problem. Uh, all that. And I'm like, hey, I mean, I'm a customer even. I'm not even here to deliver the training. I'm also a customer. They didn't listen to it. What I learned from that is emotions. I had to really listen, drop my agenda, really listen to them, empathize with them. And I call this Q-tip, quit taking it personally. They weren't upset at me. They were upset at their situation. It was changing and they were scared. And why it was the best ever training was that by the end of the first day, we're actually starting to do improvisation scenes. They're up on their feet and they're doing improvisations. And by the fourth day, the end of it, we're literally handing out certificates. There's tears. We're making a big circle. Everybody is sort of like, this is the best ever. And I see them sometimes when I'm taking public transportation. So That's the best ever training when you really change someone's life, not just their work, but you change their life. And what they got out of it is they remembered why they got into this job in the first place, why they wanted to be in customer service.

Joe, I have a question now. Now it's the tough question. And oh, you're gonna like it. And I in no way mean to be disrespectful. But I do want to share something with you about industry trends I've seen. First, the good news, something that you probably are aware of and may like. The single most successful media trainer communications coach I've ever heard of comes from an acting background, Michael Sheehan. He went to the Yale School of Drama, was a part of a theater in Washington, D.C., and started working with I won't talk about politics, but one political party.

Okay.

And was sort of brought in as a friend of a friend. Can you help this person get ready for, I think, a hearing or a campaign speech? He did that, kind of fell into it. Then he got invited by one of the major parties to prepare all the candidates before the 1984— one of the major political conventions in '84. Did it again in '88. '92. Here I will get political, folks, but we're not here to talk about politicians you don't like. He was Bill Clinton's media trainer. Boom. Well, Bill Clinton becomes president, gets a reputation around the world as one of the best speakers. Everybody wants this guy. Boom. He's got more business than 6 full-time trainers can handle. His— my understanding is his fee goes up to $20,000 a day. And life is good, and he's still doing this, to my understanding. I hired him once when I was on the inside working for a member of Congress, and you can never— it's very difficult to train someone when you're full-time staff. So I've seen him in person. I've been at Campaigns and Elections magazine seminars where he was there, and I've been a part. He's very, very good. So when I'm talking about people from the theater background, keep in mind, I have him as the most successful trainer I've ever seen. So I am not taking some broad brush and saying anyone with a theater actor is horrible. Now, so that's the good news. The bad news, you're not, you might not like this.

Okay.

But for, you know, 25 years, I was based in the New York City area. And I was president of the National Speakers Association, New York. While also doing media training and public speaking training. So I met countless people with acting backgrounds, either in the communication skills training space or trying to enter it. And here was the, here was the problem I saw with their approach. Actors by definition love to stand up and talk about feelings and emotions. Business people, for the most part, do not want to do that. And I always found a disconnect. And countless times I've talked to corporate clients who hired me. I said, well, who have you used in the past? And they said, we hired this actor and it was a complete waste of time because they wanted to stand up and talk about feelings. They never even video recorded us because they wanted to turn it into an acting workshop.

Right.

So I have found personally that when someone's coming from the acting background, they're bringing their world of, let's stand up and do a workshop and talk about feeling and not even video record.

Yeah.

My other— so I generally have a bias against anyone who tells me they had anything to do with the acting world when they're coming into the communication space. The other thing that's related to that, and I want to give you full, full time to respond to this.

It's all good. Yeah, yeah.

The thing I have found with so many people from the acting world is they don't even video record people in the trainings. The number one thing I do that I think helps my clients the most, frankly, is when I work with someone, even if it's a group of 10 people, everyone gets on Video not once, not twice, not— but 10 times in a day. To me, the real learning moment, the magic moment, is when someone sees themselves coming across exactly the way they want to come over. That's ultimately what gives confidence. And so many people in the acting world, it's just about how you feel in the moment up on the stage. They never see themselves. So Right. What's your response to this? Do you think I'm being wildly unfair? And how, how many times do you video record people is really kind of the question I always ask people from the acting world because they typically don't. And I don't mean to assume that you don't. Yeah, there, there, I've said my piece. Let me give you full time to— for rebuttal.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's great. Um, well, first, I love the story about Michael Sheen.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's a, that was a, that's a great story about that, about how he was able to, uh, take the world of acting and, and bring it right up to the president. That's just absolutely quite a leap.

So I think Obama, he, to this day, he continued, he continues to train major world leaders.

So he's gone against the grain of where, you know, where you're seeing where He's, he's managed to figure out this, the, the formula of, you know, what can you bring from the world of acting and put it into the world of business and even more so into the world of politics, which is like a whole other world unto itself.

Yes.

Um, you know, I love the idea when you, you know, how many times you video because you nailed it. It kind of goes back to what I said at the beginning. Everybody thinks they're a good communicator. It's kind of like when you hear your, your voice first time on the, uh, When we used to have answering machines and you'd sort of play back your outgoing message and go, what? I sound like that? I talk so fast. My voice is so high. It's the same thing with the video. People don't realize how many times they're looking, they're trying, they're thinking, they're thinking face. So they're looking up to the sky for an answer while they're— and they're missing the point to genuinely connect as an example. So video recording is absolutely So important because you won't believe it until you see it. That's what it boils down to. And you're right, some actors got into communication skills and feel, you know, I'm so aware of the fluffy, the feelings. And I never really say, you know, we talk about feelings because when you want to get someone to talk about feelings, ask them, you know, what are their— And this is what I learned quickly with consultants was I wouldn't say, how did that feel when we would do something? Because they would say, 6.7. And instead I'd say, what are your thoughts on that?

Hmm.

And then they go, oh, and then they would express often feelings. So it was changing the question. So it wasn't a feeling type question, but it really was about feelings. So often it is about what are your thoughts on where you grew up? What are your thoughts on this method of doing this? What are your thoughts on the change? Not how do you feel about change? How do you feel about change?

Not good.

What are your thoughts on change? Oh, I have lots of thoughts on about— and it's always going to be feelings.

And related to this, and this is my last beef, I don't mean to rake you over the coals, but my other beef with actors is they're looking for another chance to perform. They think of a training as now I get to be on stage and share wisdom. And I was guilty of that early in my career. In fact, at the end of the day, I'd be tired, my throat would be sore. What I have found, certainly in the last 15 years, the less I talk, the better the training experience it is for the client. The more they actually improve, the more they like me, the more they're likely to rehire me. So if I'm tired at the end of the day, or my throat is even the tiniest bit sore, That means I talked too much. How do you try to balance the amount of time you talk versus getting people to actually speak and watch themselves and learn from that?

Yeah. Well, as someone, you know, and I'll relate to Sedant, as someone who's also basically, I am an introvert. And so, it takes a lot of, it does take a lot of energy for me to be in the moment. And to be so, I fully agree with you that people are not paying me to come in and entertain them or, you know, edutain them.

They're—

they are paying— they are— they do— people do want to leave training with, you know, having some fun and a good experience. But at the end of the day, people want to learn something about themselves they could take away and make their work better, their work more productive, maybe even make their lives a little bit happier. They want to take something away, not just that they were entertained. And that only happens if I, in a training, ask the right questions and just listen. So that, again, it's dropping my agenda and like, what, what do they need here from the skills that we're talking about? And how can they make it relevant in their world? And as you said, it only happens if, you know, if you're being interested and not, not interesting, as they say.

Mm-hmm. How— to me, that's such a big challenge. Quite often people come in like, Well, I can't really change the speech. We've been working on it for 3 months and, you know, investor relations has signed off on it, marketing has signed off on it, and I've got all these slides. I'm kind of handcuffed. And I said, okay, fine, but guess what? Nobody in your audience cares what you got signed off. They're just listening to this from the standpoint, is, is this interesting? Did I know that before? Should I pay attention? Or Should I go to Plan B, which is read my cell phone? How do you get your clients to sort of shake up this idea of, here's this big presentation I have, and really think in terms of, is everything I'm saying either interesting or useful to my audience now, or should I— can I just get rid of it?

Yeah. Usually starts with that. And I'm sure you do this all the time with that one question, which is, what do you want your people to be doing after this speech?

Mm-hmm.

Because it's always about, we need to do this, this, and this, this. And I'm sure you use this question, you know, what, what, what does success look like at the end of the speech? What are they actually doing after this big speech? And they're like, oh, well, they're doing this. Oh, I see. Okay. Well, if they're doing ABC, then let's, let's look at the speech and make sure that these are the— I understand these are things you want to accomplish, but if you want them to actually do ABC at the end, Let's look at maybe some of the key pieces. And then again, what I've learned all from that horrible sales training was I have to adapt and realize this is not— people are being bored. People are— this is not of interest to them. This is not relevant. And we've got to go a different direction here. Or what I'm saying, or tweak it. So, it's often not a big change. It's often just tweaking it.

Joel, I want to learn from your own experiences as a podcast host, because you're younger than I am.

Sure.

You know, one of the fascinating things about communication is something's changing every day. There's new opportunities every day. When I was young, you know, there was 3 TV stations, a local newspaper. You wanted to give a speech, you knocked on the door for 6 months at the Rotary Club and begged, and maybe you'd get Now there's opportunities for everyone to speak everywhere. There's also new challenges. As you know, giving a keynote speech is very different from doing a great podcast. We spoke earlier about this need to really listen to people, to be in the moment and not be thinking about 10 other things. So that's something I'm trying to get better at already because I'm, I'm trying to listen to you. And because I find it interesting, and I know when you're interviewing people, you'll have people on your podcast, you're listening to them, but we're also multitasking because—

Yes.

When you're speaking, I want to be looking at you, but if I look at you down here, it looks weird to you and the audience because it looks like I'm looking at my notes or checking emails. So I'm actually ignoring you and looking at the camera. Yes. Because I want to project the fact that, or the feeling that I'm looking at you. So that's a little bit weird for people who don't do it all the time. And it's still less than 100% comfortable for me. But I'm also doing a show. So I'm aware of the mixer here. And I want to make sure I'm still recording. And I want to make sure I introduce you properly. So I'm occasionally glancing at notes. I'm trying to reach a larger audience. So just a moment ago, we signed off on TikTok. I took myself off camera for a moment, brought the TikTok back on. I'm aware of timing issues. I got to think about, wow, we are on video. Am I getting a little bit of shine? Do I need to maybe take a break and put a little more powder on? I am multitasking a lot, as I know you have to do with podcasting.

How—

what tricks have you learned as you've been doing this to be able to multitask and yet still really be present for your guests and anyone you're talking to?

Well, first off, TJ, I'm already sweating just hearing about everything that you've been doing while I've been speaking. speaking, uh, the, the, the, the absolute multitasking. And I love that you share also that you're not actually— because it looks like you're looking right at me, but you're not even, you know, there's no eye contact. I feel like I'm getting the eye contact. So you're doing that as, as a guest. You're making me—

Now I'm really far away. I can barely see my computer screen right now.

Okay.

By the way, the reason I have this angle is for when I'm talking about public speaking, I can actually demonstrate and walk and tell people what to do with their hands and not do with their hands. So sorry for me showing off the—

No, I love that. And that's the thing, you're— I mean, there's a few differences, right? You're operating live 3 hours a day, 5 days a week on different mediums. You're running a lot of different things there. So it— I have to admit, and, you know, your questions have been amazing and without hesitation and And it's a question that sort of takes me to the next level of thought. So if there's anyone watching, I have to sort of bow to you, TJ, on this, in that you've done an amazing job.

Well, thanks.

Yeah, you've done an amazing job of asking great questions in the moment while still being very present and building on that. And I'm impressed with that, not even realizing all the different cameras and the the mixer boards and, and stuff that you got going on. Um, when I do a podcast, I don't do it live, so that's number one. So I'm not dealing— and I did do something on Voice America, uh, that was live, um, but it wasn't on camera, so it was just audio. So with that, I'm able to cheat. And how I could— how I cheated when, with— when we're doing live off camera was I could take notes as I'm listening. So I could circle back to what someone had just said. Hey, you mentioned this, so that I could really just sort of listen as I'm doing that.

Hmm.

That also said something I did early on because, you know, I'm not as young as I seem. But when I started, it was all, it was a lot of it was on the telephone. There was no video. There was a lot of telephone coaching. And so, I got into that. habit of taking notes while I was coaching someone when we were doing it on the telephone.

And I remember those days, I would record them with a cassette and play it back. Is that what you did?

Okay. No, no, because they didn't have the technology for that to be able to do that. It was literally, you know, a landline phone and didn't— wasn't able to do that. Uh, but the— how it helped me feel better to be present was I got into this habit of really listening very carefully because I was taking notes. And then as you do that, you start picking up listening for just keywords. You start cheating and listening for just keywords, and you make a note, keyword there, and then it's in the back of your mind and you could continue to be present.

Great. Tell us more about your podcast? How long have you been doing it? Where all can people find it? What's the, what's the main value they get from listening to your podcast?

You know, I've done 2 podcasts, and I'm bringing back the This Feels Right podcast. So I did This Feels Right podcast for a few years. And then I was working somewhere else. And I did something called the Great Canadian Leadership Podcast. And then going back, now I'm going to go back to this feels right. The theme has always been the same, is that— and you said this earlier too, you know, you're already a very strong communicator, but you're curious about what others are doing around communication. And a lot of that was also my same idea, was around, you know, how did you motivate people? Because people want to know, or how did you— how are you able to influence them? Because at the heart of it, it's kind of what we want to do. And Again, going back to the idea of acting, we want to move someone. We want to get someone to collaborate or maybe someone to work together or to be looking together at solving the problem. So how did you do that? What was sort of the secret sauce, whether that be a whole organization or whether that be that one employee or that one client? And then in the kind of— you asked me too this.

Yeah.

question. I'd always sort of include, you know, what was your learning point? And I call it, you know, your failure ta-da, which is from the world of improvisation, which is celebrating your failures, which is let's not be ashamed of our failures. Let's look at our failures as a learning point. And what did you learn from that? So that's pretty much the theme of the podcast. You don't have to be a great communicator, but what did you learn along the way that was like an aha? It's how you're able to influence someone, to be able to move them, and using your communication skills to do that.

Questions coming in. Because you focused on podcasting, I'm curious as to whether you know who Dave Jackson is and whether or not you've attended Podfest. He's a well-known leader in the community, in the podcast communication space.

Yeah, I haven't attended Podfest. I received their newsletter. So that I'm up to date on that. I don't know, TJ, do you— have you been to Podfest?

I haven't, and I, I should have. They were in Florida not too long ago, and I, I had scheduled— yeah, hope to go.

Yeah, they usually come to— they do, they usually go to Florida once a year, and I'm in Toronto, and I think they've come to Toronto.

Um, who, you know, I mean, you're, you're a North American, but Canada is like America, but it's very different. Who were your role models growing up as a communicator? Were there certain— I mean, I don't know that I think Pierre Trudeau is the only prime minister I can name other than his son, maybe Brian Mulroney. But were there certain political leaders, talk show hosts, speakers you really looked up to growing up in Canada?

Well, You know, you talk about you had your 3 channels. We had 2 channels in Canada. We had CBC and CTV, and then you had the 2 French versions of those channels. So we didn't have a lot of homegrown talent. Like, one would show basically a lot of American shows, and CBC would show some local programming and some North American programming, but a lot of British programming. So, um, I was really influenced more so on the, the comedy side.

I don't know about great speakers, but I was more influenced with Monty Python, perhaps.

Monty Python, exactly. Um, but on the Canadian side, we had these 2 gentlemen called Wayne and Shuster, um, who were able to take things and sort of shift it and looked at it from a different perspective and have the sort of self-deprecating sense of humor. And so, I've always appreciated that about communication when people are able to be, you know, we always say being authentic. And to me, being authentic is you're taking the work seriously but you're not taking yourself seriously. And that's something that I took away from watching those comedians on CBC growing up. And then, as sort of more in the later stages, I've always enjoyed Dan Pink. Dan Pink is, I think, has just been— He's a wonderful author. And he was speaking of politics. Yeah, the author. And he worked for Al Gore. Speaking of, you know, politics, he was a writer for Al Gore as well. And he did a TED Talk.

And I think I have several of his books. Was it Made to Stick? Am I getting it right? Yeah.

Um, my favorite of his is To Sell Is Human.

Yes.

And I think that's a really great one around how to, um, how to communicate. And then, uh, uh, now I'm loving this this book by Charles Duhigg, I think his name is, I believe. And he wrote about habits before, right?

Super Communicators.

Super Communicator. Exactly.

Fantastic book. I just finished reading it myself.

It's the first hardcover book I bought in years because I basically just read everything on my iPad. So it's the first hardcover because I basically want to sort of go back and look at it. And I love his examples. Because like I said about touchy-feely stuff, like he's talking about You know, that the CIA is basically in the communication business. And so those are really good to balance it out, that communication is not always about touchy-feely. It is about being very strategic and specific, but also how to be yourself in those moments. And that's a big part of it. Going back to, again, self-deprecating and sort of self-disclosures.

Mm-hmm. What's the, what's the fine line that you try to reach when you're a host of a podcast? If all you do is ask questions and never disclose, it's not as interesting to people or the guest. If you spend too much time talking about yourself, then it seems like you were rude to the guest. How do you balance that?

Yeah, um, it's a— it can't be The thing about questioning is whether it'd be a podcast or whether you'd be a leader or whether you're doing sales, it should never feel like an interrogation. And if it's too many questions, then it just feels like an interrogation. Nobody wants to be on the spot and have to be sort of constantly like that. So it's a nice break for anyone when the podcast host, as an example, shares a little bit about them. And when that happens, as you have been doing, sharing a little bit about your thoughts around acting and the actors and as communicators and sharing a bit of your best successes and your worst successes, your worst experiences, you're creating connection with us, with me. And so I feel a bit safer. I don't feel like you have a hidden agenda where you're going to maybe take me. I feel like we're connecting. And I think that's, again, at the heart of whether a podcast or anything is that it's how can I connect with this person? And when you self-disclose a little bit, but know that you're not putting the focus completely on yourself, you're still keeping the focus on the other person, then you're creating that safety in the conversation.

How have you evolved as a podcast host? Would someone listen to your first couple of podcasts versus your most recent, what would they notice? And what are you conscious of having tried to actively improve?

When I was in university many, many years ago, I was also the host of like a radio show that was doing theater critic and film criticism. So my— and we didn't have— you couldn't sort of stream things at the time. You were just listening to the regular radio. And again, there was just CBC Radio. And CBC Radio was like sort of like BBC Radio. There was a sort of voice like, you're listening to CBC Radio. Tonight's episode is You know, there was that voice. And so when I was doing the reviews, I would do that voice, which is not me. And so that was, you know, even when I started podcasting, it was the same thing as you sort of play it back and go, oh, I'm doing that CBC voice again. I'm not being myself. I'm trying too hard.

Mm-hmm.

To be professional. And I think that's what gets in the way for so many people is they try too hard to be professional as opposed to Take the focus off myself, put the focus on the guests.

Yeah. And unfortunately, I'm sure you experience this. So many people think professional is speaking at the same tone and the same volume and the same speed, and it's boring. They're afraid to use the full range of their voice. I mean, to be captivating, as you know, is with an actor, you got to sometimes be high and low and fast and slow. It's, it's the roller coaster. That makes it fun and exciting.

Absolutely.

Joel, we really appreciate your time. Again, Joel Silverstone has been our guest today. If you want to know more about him and perhaps listen to his podcast, the podcast is called This Feels Right. And is it available? We have a web address for it. We'll be posting that in the description and the show notes.

Yeah.

Is it also available on Spotify, iTunes, all the normal places?

Everywhere you can. And you can listen to it. It's TFR, This Feels Right, the podcast. Every Spotify, iTunes, everywhere. It's also available on YouTube as well. There's a YouTube channel for it as well. And then more recently, I was doing the Great Canadian Leadership Training Podcast. Same thing. You can check that out everywhere if you're looking. You know, again, we had lots of amazing leaders on that. And so you could listen to that as well. And then, yeah, do connect with me on LinkedIn. I love— I share a lot of great tips on LinkedIn. But also, I love to follow other people's journeys as well as to what they're doing as well. And so, do connect with me on LinkedIn. And my Instagram is also @thisfeelsright Instagram. So, I'll post little videos there and that kind of material. So, do check. I'm not on TikTok. But There we go. Instagram and Twitter or X as well. This feels right on X.

I am on TikTok right now, but maybe no one in the United States will be on it in a few months. But we'll table that debate for another time. Joel, you've heard the expression, you know, the cobbler's children wear no shoes. Sometimes that happens even to people like you and me, because I know we both advise to clients before every presentation, ask yourself, What is it you want this audience to do? Do you want them to buy from you, vote for you, endorse your candidate, endorse your budget for next year's fiscal infrastructure? What is it you want people to do? And yet, I've gone on talk shows before where I didn't have a clear-cut agenda. What would you like our audience to do?

Well, one is, uh, you know, on a personal selfish note, connect with me on LinkedIn. Uh, I'd love to hear your story and, and if I can be of service to you or to your organization, uh, or have a conversation, or even if it is, you know, even if you just need 15 minutes, you know, let's talk about a freebie, you know, 15 or 30-minute chat. Absolutely. You know, as part of this pod, this episode here at TJ Walker, my pleasure. Just say, heard you on TJ Walker's podcast. I'd love 30 minutes of Free coaching on communication skills. Absolutely love to help. No strings attached. I'm not signing you up for anything. Happy to do a 30-minute coaching. And then, you know, on the unselfish side, I hope that you've taken out between TJ and myself, and if you're a regular TJ watcher, even this episode, that you've taken some tips around that the focus of communication is not about you, but it really is about how can I move that other How can I create a connection with that person? How can I go beyond small talk, let's say, and create maybe a deeper connection with that person, make them feel safe, and that we're collaborating or working towards the same goal?

Great. Joel Silverstone, thank you so much for being our guest. I'm TJ Walker. This is the TJ Walker Success Channel, where we get together to improve communication skills, boost our skills, and boost our confidence.