Grow your confidence and capabilities with the right tools and practice Feels Right!

Have you ever wanted to influence others to shift their behaviors, ideas, or actions without playing power trip games? If so, listen for the next hour. Welcome to TFR, This Feels Right, with your host, Joel Silverstone. You'll learn the tools and concepts to influence others with everyone involved maintaining their respect and understanding so it doesn't seem like it's all one way. Now, here is Joel Silverstone.

Allô, allô, allô! Bonjour! Good morning and welcome to TFR, This Feels Right. Today's show, and I'm going to say this I think in a Bond villain voice, is the keys to confidence and how and why that different framework. That was less Bond villain, I think, than more like the Count from Sesame Street. And also be talking about self-awareness. So, we've got our first guest, Kristin Sherry. Kristin, I'm going to share with everybody a little bit about your background and then I'll just Just to let everyone know that our second guest is Catherine Hayos, and she'll be at half past the hour. And she is the senior leader of learning and enablement at Optimus SBR. So Kristen is an author, a speaker, managing partner of UMAP, and da da da da, the creator of UMAP, which is also a self-awareness tool to help uncover your strengths, values, preferred skills, and personality-based interests. She's also got this book that she has authored called UMAP, which is UMAP: Find Yourself, Blaze Your Path, and Show the World, which is a number one bestseller on Amazon. Her new book, Your Team Loves Mondays, Right? I think that's supposed to be said with a sarcastic tone, is coming out shortly. You also can see Kristen has been featured in Inc.com and Entrepreneur Magazine. Is this right so far as your intro, Kristen?

That sounds like me.

And Kristin and I— and this will be sort of my first question because our theme today is about the keys to confidence and the tools and the capabilities to get there. Kristin and I met at Disrupt HR. We were both speaking there. Kristin's talk was— and Kristin, I mean, you look like you were having so much fun doing it. So it was Resumes Don't Fit the Future of Work, which is so relevant in this day and age. So let's talk about confidence because I know for myself when I did that Disrupt HR talk, I mean, that was probably one of the hardest things to do. So let's get your thoughts on maybe around confidence and maybe your thoughts around that Disrupt HR talk.

Sure. So there's a difference between having confidence overall, being a confident person, and then feeling confident in every single situation in your life. So you may not feel confident in every setting but can still be a confident person. That Disrupt HR talk is a perfect example. I am a confident person, but going through the preparation process to do that talk, even though I have a lot of public speaking experience, the format of 15 seconds per slide for 20 slides and having to line up each point you're making to land as that slide changes, that's not my presentation style. And it really—

Yeah.

in a few days started to shake my confidence when I was preparing for it. And there's 2 things that I recommend people do when they're—

Hang on, let me get pen and paper.

Here we go.

2 things. I'm listening.

2 things I recommend people do, or really remember in general, is that first of all, confidence comes from knowing what it is we do best. So when you're in a novel situation or doing something new, you have to think about What do I really do best and how can I leverage those strengths or skills in this particular situation? And the second thing is to have an awareness that our actions can influence our results. So when I started to have shaky confidence on the Disrupt HR talk, I started to think about, well, what am I really good at? And I thought, well, I'm really good at generating ideas. So I started to think about what are ideas of how I can creatively prepare for this talk? And I started doing things like drawing pictures to represent each slide and putting keywords on the back of it and then going for walks and creating imagery in my mind so I could conjure the images when I did the talk. And the second thing was knowing, hey, I can actually take steps to make sure I do well here by leveraging my talents. So I think if we do those 2 things, that really increases our self-awareness in every situation we're in, and that's really the number one predictor of success. in our careers is having self-awareness.

Yeah, that was a really good answer. That was chock-full. Knowing what we do best and then actually just going, hang on, drill it down. What do I actually do best? Awareness that actions have results. I like this idea of visualization as a way to maybe get past our self-talk. Is that the idea behind visualization?

Absolutely. For me, I'm a very visual person, so I decided to use visualization. See, the typical advice is, well, you know, just memorize your talk and keep saying it, and then you'll know it.

Yeah.

That doesn't work for me because I'm more of a spontaneous person. I'm more of a creative type. I'm a writer. So I definitely had to use different advice. And so that's why I had to tap into what I do best. But if you don't have self-awareness, that's the key, is you have to really understand what are my assets and things that I can tap into? What is the toolbox that I have for this particular novel situation that I'm in so I can really influence my actions to have better results?

Yeah, you know, for me, it's— I'm trying to visualize, but somehow I just see everything blowing up. So what I did for that, because it is, it's like you've got 5 minutes and every 15 seconds there's a new slide, and I'm with you, Kristin. My background is improvisation, so it's It's going in the spur of the moment. But you have to be prepared. That's the thing about improv. You do have to be prepared. You can't really just wing it. For me, it's always about intention. I'd look at each slide and go, why is this important? Why am I talking about this? Why should anybody care?

Yeah, those are good things to ask yourself before you speak to an audience.

Yeah. I want to talk about the new book because I think— Tell me if I got this right. It's not out yet, is that correct?

It's in pre-order, but it doesn't release until February 20th.

Okay. And so did I read this correctly, that the idea behind the book is that there was some Gallup research and 9 out of 10 people are not actually wired naturally to manage people? Is this correct?

Yeah, absolutely correct. And so my last book, UMAP, was really designed to help people figure out what they do best that others need most and then figure out a plan to go after that.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of times, job seekers are attracted to the book. So what I realized, though, was a lot of those job seekers were leaving their roles because they were trying to get away from their managers. And so now you're going to have a new job seeker who goes into that role and potentially could have the same problem. So I thought, I need to tackle this from the other side of the equation and help managers to do a better, more effective job of leading people. Because I think most people want to go to work and do a good job. But they just don't know what they don't know, and they don't realize how their management style demotivates their people.

Uh, absolutely. Yeah. Um, I think I just saw a— well, I know I just saw a statistic this morning, uh, actually about that, uh, people, you know, workers for lack of a better word, are actually going to be 12 times more fully engaged if they actually trust that team leader. Um, so I think that's what, that's what you're saying here is that, uh, if that Team leader is maybe again going back to that lack of self-awareness and how they're managing people, that then breaks the trust and then it sort of creates this vicious circle where people feel like they're not being supported and they're not being recognized.

Yeah, a lot of times people make it more complicated than it needs to be when you're thinking, how can I influence this group of people?

It's simple.

They need to know you care about them. They need to be able to trust you. They need to believe that you're competent. It doesn't mean you know everything. You can admit your mistakes and I don't know that, I'll get back to you. But overall, as a person, you're competent. You need to be fair.

Yeah.

And you need to be open and honest. And if you do those core things, then everything takes care of itself. Now, you have specific skills that you need to learn or they won't think you're competent. You have to know how to develop, or at least support their development, and know how to train your team and retain your team. And there are things that you need to know how to do, and you should always be pursuing skill building to increase your effectiveness as a manager of people. But if you are— because you can be fair and caring and trusting, and if you're not competent, they'll like you, but they won't really want to follow you.

Yeah, because at one point you have to, you have to be able to give feedback. And if you're just trying to be their best friend, it's going to be really hard to give objective feedback.

You know, it's interesting you would say that because there's a lot of research I did around this new book and Employees say that managers that give constructive feedback are considered twice as promotable by their leader and are rated as more effective managers by their employees. Now, they have to be giving constructive feedback, of course, not just feedback like, hey, that work product really sucked. That's not going to fly.

That's right.

But they do still want to receive more positive than constructive feedback. So it becomes this ratio. And it needs to be genuine. If you don't believe what you're saying, oh, great job, it's not specific. People don't really know why they did a great job, and you're not really meaning it. It's just kind of, you're just throwing it out there to have your positives higher than your negatives in your feedback. That's not going to fly. You really have to be paying attention and looking for opportunities to show your team that you value their contribution.

Well, you know what? And I think this is a great segue to do a little something here that we call, we call it Yes, But, a little improv exercise specifically around the idea of giving sort of backhanded feedback where, hey, you know, like, you're doing good, but... So are you ready to try this out, Kristin? We're going to do a little improv around communication skills.

Let's go. I've never done improv. I'm excited to expand my skill set.

Oh, you've never done it?

Great.

Okay, fantastic. All right. All right. Well then, great. So this is what's going to happen. Kristen, let's assume that we're both working at UMAP and, oh my goodness, you're not going to believe this. This is going to be your task. Your task is going to be, you are trying to— we've left the holiday party or end of the year party to the last minute. You haven't planned anything. So you're going to reach out to me as your coworker and try to brainstorm some ideas to get that holiday party up and running or what we could do about it. Okay. Just letting you know in advance, I'm going to be always starting my answer with yes, but.

Okay.

Just letting you know in advance.

Okay.

All right, here we go. You started us off with some ideas about what we could do for a holiday party because we left it to the last minute.

Okay, Joel, I know we have to have this party. It's very last minute, so I think what we should do is probably see who will be willing to open up their home for the party because we probably won't be able to rent a facility this late.

Oh yes, but Kristen, that is so embarrassing. It's obvious that we left it to the last minute.

Uh, okay, so what idea would you have then if you don't like that idea? I'm open to your suggestions.

Yes, but Kristen, I am swamped. I don't have time for this. This was really your responsibility as the, as the managing partner here.

Okay, well, why don't I do this? Why don't I Come up with some ideas on my own, and then you can just choose the one that you like the best.

Oh yes, but that sounds like a lot. All right, so we'll pause right there.

I feel terrible already.

Well, good news: we're going to go back in time. So like do do do do do do do. We're going back into our sort of improv time machine here. We go back in time to two minutes ago, and we're going to start all over. And this time, Kristen, good news: I'm going to always answer with yes and from now on.

Alright, do you want me to come up with different ideas this time?

No, same ideas.

Okay, so Joel, since it's really last minute for the party, I think our best bet is to see if one of the employees on the team would be willing to open their house for the setting since we probably won't be able to get a venue this short notice.

Yes, and Kristin, that is such a great idea because, you know, nobody wants to be in a loud restaurant. It's lovely to have the intimacy of a home that really says something about our organization. That's great.

Thank you. I appreciate that. What do you think about if we then had each employee come up with an idea of a theme so that we could decorate in a theme-oriented style for the party?

Yes, and Kristen, that is being so respectful, and I think that really represents the culture of our organization, and it's empowering everyone. Kristen, you're on fire this morning with these ideas. Great.

And what if we had a potluck and everyone brought in a dish from their background or culture? Oh, absolutely.

All right, so we'll pause right here.

And so, ta-da!

Yay!

So how did you feel with the yes, but? You kind of said a little bit there, so let me check in. How did you feel there when you were being yes, butted?

You know, it's funny because even though I knew we were doing an improv, when you would say yes, but and level an objection, I felt kind of triggered. It kind of took me back to the corporate world when I had people who would do that to me, and I could feel it in my— in the pit of my stomach, that feeling of, of being completely silenced.

Oh, oh, I, I— it's true. It really, it, it really is a trigger because it's so passive-aggressive. Yeah, it is a trigger. So let's, let's talk about the positive. How was the yes and for you?

Oh, I just love the enthusiasm around it, and I feel like it expanded my ideas. Before, when you were saying yes, but, I was thinking about, well, if you're not interested in my ideas, why am I here? And, well, why don't you just do this yourself? That's the kind of thoughts I, I have. But when you were saying the yes, and, my brain started to generate more ideas and enthusiasm because of the receptivity.

Absolutely. That is the whole purpose of that yes, and improv exercise. First off, it's like the number one rule of improvisation is basically 2 actors come up, they make an offer to each other, they have to accept the offer or else the scene falls flat. Then, as you said, in the corporate world, how it translates that is the idea is about collaboration. Before I dismiss your idea, that I'm actually open to your ideas and I'm thinking about being collaborative. I think it goes back to when we're giving constructive or positive feedback about being specific and not just That was good, but here's the 5 things that need to be better.

Yeah. That's a good exercise to keep in mind.

Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of that, and I want to talk about building confidence in others, you mentioned in your Disrupt speech, and I think it's a big part of UMAP as well, is people's values. And maybe again, maybe that self-awareness. We're not always aware maybe what are our values, what is important to us. And how we communicate with others, we may not be aware of what's important to them. And so that's why sometimes it's hard to influence people because we're not in sync with our values. So let's talk a little bit about values, Kristin.

Values are really the closest access point to answer the question, who am I? We aren't our jobs. We aren't our skills. We aren't our personality. Our values are really distinct to us. Most of us go through life not even really knowing what is most important to us, but our body knows and our brain knows. It's just not conscious. And so our values will be violated in certain settings and somebody says something or does something and just crosses our values and we have an immediate negative response to that, but we can't even really put our finger on why. And what happens is we just end up going into fight or flight.

Yeah.

And having a negative response. So for example, I'm working with someone right now. Her number one value is responsibility.

Hmm.

And she believes in doing what she says she's going to do, and it's a reciprocal value. So you have to know, is this a personal value of mine, or do I expect this from other people as well? And she has some issues with people on her team that she perceives that they are not doing what they're supposed to be doing and they don't say what— they don't do what they say. And so there's an accountability issue. And so that is not really something we can flex on. We break on our values when they're being violated.

Yeah.

And a lot of times when I talk to people, they don't understand why they ended up in a situation— either it's in a relationship or a job they took— it seemed so perfect on paper, but then it was a disaster in practice. And almost always Always, those are values violations. So what is most important to you? And some people value things like community and making a difference and meaningful work, while other people value things like stability and structure and consistency. And so those people are going to resist your ideas or try to influence you based out of what they value. So if you don't know what you value and the person you're relating to, if you don't find common ground on the values, it can be very difficult to be able to work well together.

Kristin, I think you just nailed what the show is about. It doesn't feel right.

Yeah, exactly.

And when we're in sync with our values, as you said, maybe the both of us are, you know, family is a big value or family-oriented or community. Or, you know, I said responsibility. There we go. Yeah, well, this feels right because we don't know. We're not always in touch with what our values are. I think when you have that self-awareness about what's important to you, what are your values or your beliefs, and then you can, A, sort of state what they are when you need them to sort of, you know, kind of like a user manual. Like, hey, these are my values and this is what's important to me. So if you want to communicate with me, this is what I need from you. But also to be aware that, oh, maybe this person has different values. How can I speak to what is important to them? How can I speak to their values to really get their buy-in and build their confidence?

Yeah, you really need to know a few things about a person to get their buy-in. You have to know what motivates them and what's important to them. Sometimes those things are different. The thing about values that I would add is it's really an excellent filter or lens for decision-making in all areas of your life. So for setting the vision for your life, for being able to set boundaries, setting your goals, being able to say yes and no to things, if you know what you value, it becomes very easy to know who to bring into your life, what goals to be setting for your life, and that really sets the vision for your life. So it's really kind of interesting. It's amazing to think about how so many people go through their entire life without consciously knowing what's most important to them. Just think about that for a minute. We just sort of guess our way through life instead of—

Yeah.

The word is intention. Once you know your values, you can live with intention. So as far as influencing other people, you are going to tend to influence people through what you value. So don't take that promotion. It doesn't make enough money. And that person might value adventure and fun, and they don't really care about the paycheck associated with it. So definitely speaking to what another person values, and you won't know that by guessing. You have to ask them what's important to them. So the first piece of any influence is keeping quiet, asking questions, and then being quiet and listening to what that person says.

With that lens of that you're seeking what's important to them, whether it's not money, maybe it's adventure, as you said, it's that values. I think that is— you nailed it. When I first met my wife, everybody said— we weren't married obviously then, but when I met her, everyone said, oh, we're completely different. I was this struggling out-of-work actor and she was working in this sort of very high-end retail store like a Barney's. And so we seemed on paper Complete opposites. And everyone was like, what? It's never going to work. But what we found out was actually it was our values that were the same. It wasn't what was on paper that she was working in this high-end store and I was a struggling actor. It was the values that we were family and actually that we like to laugh. Humor was really important to the both of us.

You're exactly right. My husband and I have very opposite personalities. He's very conscientious and careful and cautious. And I'm very spontaneous, and I love to laugh, and I'm loud, and I talk a lot. Our personalities are opposite, and we get along like peas and carrots because of what you just said. We share the same set of values.

Right.

Not only from our faith, but also in terms of how we treat one another. We don't believe in raising our voices at one another, and we believe in listening more than we speak when we're talking and seeking out the other person's perspective. Not talking over each other. We have a lot of the same values and they stem from things like respect and connection and things like that. So our relationship works very well. The opposite personalities isn't the issue. It's the way you agree to engage in the relationship based on your values.

The way that you agree to engage based on values. Uh, that is a great way to end this, uh, this segment, Kristen, uh, with just about a A little over a minute left. Where, you know, because I know values, for example, is a big part of UMAP. So, Kristin, where can we find out more about you and what's coming up next?

So you can go to my website, kristinsherry.info, for what's next and my speaking engagements. You can go to myumap.com to learn about UMAP, and feel free to connect to me on LinkedIn.

And I'll add, of course, go to Amazon to check out the book UMAP. And of course, the next one that's coming out, which is Your Team Loves Mondays, Right? which is coming out in February. And I'll put a plug for the both of us. Go to Disrupt HR to check out our videos, Kristin Sherry's video and my video as well, to see us in action. Kristin, thank you so much. Thank you, Joel. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been great. I think we really unpacked something with the values, and I really had a huge takeaway about that.

Thank you so much.

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You are listening to TFR. This feels If you have a question or comment for Joel Silverstone, please send an email to joel@joelsilverstone.com. Again, that's joel@joelsilverstone.com. Now back to TFR.

And we're back. Welcome to TFR, This Feels Right. And we have our second guest here, Katherine Hayhoe. So before I introduce you fully, let me check in and see how are you feeling today, Katherine?

Hi, Joel. I am feeling great. Thanks for asking. And yeah, delighted to be here and in conversation and honored to be asked to be part of This Feels Right. Looking forward to it.

Honored. Wow. OK, lovely. Terrific. Well, we're delighted. And that's— I appreciate that. So again, ladies and gentlemen, listeners, you are in the right place if you want to learn from leaders and coaches and speakers who are sharing their examples and perspectives on how they've been able to influence behaviors, ideas, and actions and not be manipulative. If you listened to our first guest, you know the theme to our show today is about the keys to confidence, the how and the why and the different frameworks and that self-awareness that goes involved. Our second guest is right here, is Kathryn Hayos. She is the Senior Leader of Learning and Enablement at Optimus SBR, which is one of Canada's largest independent consulting firms. What's interesting about Kathryn also is that she She is a former actress, and she brings a lot of those techniques into play in her over 20 years as being a learning designer, a facilitator, a coach. She has a strong belief and a framework around experiential learning and practice is going to fine-tune the skills to get to confidence and mastery of those skills. Katherine, did I get that right?

Perfect. Sounds beautiful.

So Catherine and I have known each other for probably over 20 years. We might share some stories and some examples of that. But the first thing, Catherine, I want to talk about as we talk about experiential learning and practice and maybe some of those acting techniques, one of the biggest things that I think is sort of underrated, and I think you really bring a lot of attention to that about why it's so Absolutely, Joel.

You know, you're right. I was thinking about it, and I think voice actually is the gateway to action.

Hmm.

When— that's our instrument, right? It's our piano, and we don't really use that effectively. We don't use that as a muscle and fine-tune it and limber it up. We all know when we're on the receiving end, let's say, of a presentation, and someone is speaking in the same monotone, and yet they're saying something really important. I'm really excited to be here. I've got some great things to share with you. I know we're going to do an awesome job.

Yeah.

No credibility. I don't believe you, and you haven't inspired me. So no action. Yeah.

So what can we do? What can the regular person do? Because what you're saying is that if our voice is not warmed up, we're not going to have any presence or any ability to have any effect on another person. Especially when doing a presentation. Any ideas or suggestions that we can do for our voice?

Yeah, great question. One of the easiest things, and I'll just tell a really quick story, I was working with somebody, a leader, and sometimes leaders just feel, I have to show up a certain way as a business person. I was trying to get him to be more animated with his voice, and then he got a call from his daughter.

daughter. Mm-hmm.

And his daughter was going through, you know, a little bit of a thing, and I heard him on the phone being animated and showing emotion— everything I wanted him to do in the presentation. So we're capable of it, we just are not fine-tuned to it. So one of the biggest things to do is to read aloud. If you have kids, read aloud to kids. Play the parts, play the different roles. Read aloud. And so often people practice, and they just practice by reading what they're going to say, but they don't do it out loud. So we're not engaging that muscle. It's like going to the gym for your voice.

Yeah, well, it sounds like— or it sounds like if we don't do it, if we're just reading it, it's like we're watching the workout video but we're not actually doing it. Exactly.

Yeah, good point. And, you know, the voice has a lot of range, a lot of color, and that is the gateway to our And so when we're connected, when we've got our voice limber, then the emotional quality can come out and then we can inspire action in whether it's a one-on-one conversation or a large group, and then we show up credible.

Yeah. And you and I both know— I mean, you taught, you were a theater teacher as well. I mean, so the importance of voice and how much, as actors, you spend so much time working on your voice because that is, besides your intention and besides your ability to learn the lines, the voice is that powerful tool to, to give a tone, to give a pace, to give a pitch, to give a pause, all those abilities.

100%. It's a tool. It's our piano. It's our instrument. And, um, yeah, I, I often, you know, I take a risk and I have, as you know, I've done vocal modules when I've done training sessions in government or business sector, and I always think, oh, this is a little risky. I can't believe we're going to be bringing the actor exercises into this domain. And it sometimes ends up being participants' favorite module.

Yeah. And so let's segue from that into the idea of practice and experiential learning. And as you said, so acting techniques is— voice work is one of the things. But why is— and obviously, I'm a firm believer in this, but I'd love your version of this— why is experiential learning so important?

Yeah. Well, essentially, I think we've all seen it. You can sit through a training, and it can be even a great training session, and you understand it intellectually. You're nodding your head. I get it. Great. And you've got a beautiful binder that you got with this training session. And then you leave the session. And you go into work the next day, you put your beautiful shiny binder on the shelf, and then you're dealing with work. You're busy, you've got crises and things to deal with, and the training slowly but surely goes out the window because you haven't had a chance to practice it, to get it into you and make it your own. And so I see, like, training is often viewed as a one-time thing, and it's not a one-and-done event. And I will bring Confucius into this with this really great quote.

Okay.

And it's, you know, tell me, I forget. Show me, I remember. Involve me, I understand. And that's the practice. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah, that's, you know, so, and it has to be the right practice and good practice.

Okay, so let's talk about that, good practice, because that's a key offering at Optimist SBR and the training and learning division of my practice that you're overseeing. So let's talk about practice, especially this idea of successive practice, I guess, if you're going to be involved, because you can't just sort of practice it once. You've got to master it, as you say.

Exactly, right? So how do you get to that road to mastery? And it's not just practicing it once. I mean, athletes practice. Athletes would never think of, you know, going for a run, getting on the tennis court without practicing and warming up and fine-tuning what they're doing. The same with actors. But often in the business world, smart, smart people juggling a million things, really busy, they have a one-on-one, they have a conversation, a presentation, and they just dive in without practice or thinking about it. So if you take a step back and do the right practice— and you're right, what we do at Optimus with the My Practice solution is we give you performance coaches who are actors who can play the part realistically of your customer, the customer who's really angry, the customer who's not speaking, the customer who is— You know, on the verge of tears. We play those personalities realistically, and we really fine-tune and work on the skills that your company wants you to exhibit. And then you practice having that conversation with that personality with a certain issue that we've created and scripted out. And here's the real important thing.

Okay.

You get feedback. feedback on what it felt like to be your customer or your employee.

Yeah.

And that's the really important thing because feedback needs to be delivered in a way that you will receive it. And obviously, we can talk about that. That usually starts with creating a safe space because I'm going to make myself vulnerable in that practice situation.

Yeah.

You are in— you need to be in good hands. Too often, I have seen people be kind of shattered because feedback has not been delivered well and that's it. They've shut down. They're going back to their old ways and they're not going to try anything new.

I think feedback is the new F-word for the 21st century. Yeah.

For better or worse.

Yeah, that's going to be my next talk I'm going to do. I'm going to call it the F-word, feedback. Love it. Love it. Yeah, because it's true. If that feedback is— and this is why people roll their eyes when they hear they're going to be doing role plays at work because they don't really trust that the other person really has the right intentions about that feedback is about continuous growth or continuous improvement or that people can be better versus the feedback they feel like is just about trying to make them feel smaller. Yeah.

The feedback, you're right. It's all about the person giving the feedback, right?

Yeah.

And it's like, I'm gonna dump all this stuff that you're doing wrong and be done. And really, you have to be very mindful of what— how you prioritize your feedback, what is the right feedback to give, because oftentimes you can give one piece of really specific targeted feedback to a person, and then what happens is you will see a ripple effect. Once you get one thing right, other things start to fall into place. And we see that so often, and so we go back in. We do what we call a redo moment. We go back into that specific section that a person is struggling with and give them another chance to practice it after they've received feedback. And so often you see, wow, all those other things that I was going to give you feedback on, you've started to implement them.

Yeah, it's kind of going back to that example about you were coaching that person about their voice, how they're able to switch. If you give something— a feedback that triggers something, it has that ripple effect. It lights a switch for the other things to sort of fix themselves. Exactly.

Exactly. And so, if I've dumped on you 10 things that you need to do better, you've shut down. You're done.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Even really sometimes over 3 things and you're done. You're not going to take it. You feel demoralized.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, the goal of feedback is to get that person to have the ability to be able to reflect on it. And so that they're, as you said, then they're open to do that redo moment. So if you give that feedback that's meaningful, respectful, and relevant, they're able to go, you know, oh yeah, okay, I could— yeah, they're able to reflect. It makes sense. Versus, like you said, like, here's 10 pieces of feedback, and that's just, that's just like the grocery list, right?

You know, you've hit something really important because, I mean, obviously when we do it with our malpractice teams, we're really experienced coaches, so we know how to give that feedback. And in organizations, people struggle with that, right? They, they, they get promoted because they're really smart, but they may not have the tools to be a really good coach or be or give feedback effectively. And I think the challenge is, how do I give feedback while preserving the relationship? And as you said, actually even igniting and stimulating, getting someone excited. I can do this. I want to try this. And it becomes, it becomes a really great moment. You can see people light up for both the person who gives the feedback and the receiver. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think— which is a good segue for, uh, let's talk about how that, that has, that has an effect on, on neuroscience or how it affects on the chemicals in our brain after our little improv break.

Okay.

So hold on to that. So, uh, are you— I'll tell you what we're gonna do, but let me just check in, Catherine, and, you know, create that safety, as you say. Uh, are you ready and feeling comfortable to try a little bit of an improvisation?

Absolutely. Thanks for asking.

You're welcome. So this is our— we always break somewhere around here to have a little improv around communication skills. I'd love to try something with you because you were talking about the vulnerability that we need. It's often because vulnerabilities— we're afraid we're going to show something. This is an improv exercise called Failure Ta-da! Where I'm going to ask you to basically say the headline of a failure and say it with full energy and enthusiasm. Then after you're done, just to let you know, we are all going to celebrate it. You're going to say your failure and then you're going to give a big ta-da at the end of it and we are all going to celebrate it. Does that make sense? Okay.

I got it.

Yeah. So go through your Rolodex.

Yeah, I think it happens about 3 to 5 times a day. Okay.

All right, so whenever you're ready.

Well, the first thing that actually came to my mind, it was spring in my house, windows are all open. My younger son is in grade 12. He is on the road to getting to university, so his marks need to be good. I found out that he missed or skipped a test. The teacher let him know. do a makeup test, and then I get a call from the teacher that he didn't go to his makeup test. I am livid. My blood is boiling. He walks in the door, and not my finest parenting moment, I tear a strip off of him, and I probably used some really foul language as well. And once I finally get my breath, I realize, oh my God, the windows are all open.

Ta-da!

Out of the window!

Bravo!

So I'm sure my lovely neighbors think I am evil woman, evil mother.

Uh, well, well done. First off, you know, we can all relate to that story. Um, we, we, we've all been there, uh, whether screaming at, screaming at our kids or, or a friend or whatever, that, that moment that just emotions take us over. But that was to share your failure and to normalize it and, you know, get it out there. And as you said, it's almost like vocal work. It's like it's in your head and now you've said it out loud. You've put it out there. How do you feel?

It's fun. You know, it's interesting. I mean, we're really going through a wave where we really are celebrating failures and looking at— there's a real common theme around that. And certainly when I was growing up, that wasn't wasn't the way it was. You know, it was like, you cannot do wrong. You cannot do wrong.

Right.

And safety, you know, as you said, learning really happens in those places when you don't do it right, in those moments of vulnerability. It's just hard to get there. And I know— and I'll just segue— I know when I do— when I used to do acting, there was something called clowning. We did clown training, and it's European clowning.

Mm-hmm.

And they always— they really pushed you. We called it, stay in the shit. So when things aren't going bad, stay in it, stay in it. Be a failure, be a failure, because really interesting, crazy, funny things emerge from that. And so I know we all beat ourselves up so much, and I have to really remind myself daily, I made a fool out of myself in front of my team, you know, and I beat myself up and I go, whatever, I have to go, ta-da!

Yeah, yeah, you have to go ta-da. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's true. I mean, now we're putting— we are putting that positive spin on failure. The failures are about learning lessons. So I guess the good news about that is we can know that people are gonna be more— give us a little bit more rope, so to speak. They'll give us a little bit more leeway that if we fail, We're kind of all in agreement that we're— it's not about being perfect. It's about, I'm trying my best to get it right. I'm trying my best.

Yeah, we show up human, and I think when we do that, when you show up that way, it gives the other person permission to share and be vulnerable and show up a different way. And that builds relationship. I just had a conversation yesterday with someone who I thought was so perfect, and she's just an amazing woman. And I sort of started to share some of my vulnerability about being— she was supportive. I'm surprised that I feel anxious before I do presentations, this kind of thing. I shared that with her, and then she, who is just amazing at presentations and everything she does, she said— she shared with me that she's terrified all the time about that. And it was like, wow, we share our vulnerability, some of our failures, and we kind of see each other more human, and it builds that relationship. Yeah.

Again, on this segue, what I'm really learning a lot is that people that we view as successful— and you and I both know, having worked with leaders— is when you're one-on-one with a leader or one-on-one with someone that you believe is successful, when they have that vulnerability, they're going to share with you, I hope no one knows I have no idea what I'm doing. Exactly.

Exactly. And I think the really beautiful thing is when leaders are able to share that in a story to their teams effectively and what they're learning is they really start to build a relationship and inspire the people that they're talking with. And I've seen that time and time again because it's showing up authentically. That's what we have to give. And bringing it back to the voice, when we're connected with our voice and being able to share that, we can inspire action.

Yeah, connected with our voice. And when you were sharing that vulnerability That's, I think, how you start to feel confident because at this point you've kind of been faking confident as a leader until you actually share, hey, I'm terrified of doing presentations. And then all of a sudden you feel more confident in front of your teams. You don't feel like you're wearing this mask anymore. You could actually be more yourself. And that actually is probably what a big thing of confidence is.

Yeah.

I mean, we all have to work at that. And the more you practice, get feedback, you still feel nervous and those butterflies, but then you're in the moment and you can get out of your own way.

Yeah.

Yeah. So let's talk— we promised we were going to talk about neuroscience a little bit. And, you know, that's something that you started a few years ago bringing to your clients in the learning and how important that was to connect storytelling, to connect voice, to correct acting techniques, to connect coaching. So let's talk about this. What neuroscience does and maybe like the ripple effect of neuroscience?

Well, I'm no neuroscientist, but certainly when we look at the way the brain functions, and it is about that idea of fight or flight or freeze, your goal in presentations, in coaching sessions, is to help someone get out of their fight or flight. Your goal for yourself is to help you get out of that fight or flight.

Right.

So, if you start with relationship, if you start by starting positively, giving positive feedback, you're sending some oxytocin, some dopamine, some of those love hormones. You're starting to feel good or making the other person feel good. And that, you know, we start with the emotional, that the amygdala, the— where the emotions are the first place we react, right? So, if I'm feeling nervous, that's the first place I'm going I'm going to get defensive. I'm going to feel anxious. And so it takes a minute or a nanosecond to get to the front part of the brain. And if someone can help me to calm down my emotions and go, I'm in a safe place, or they're making me feel good with some positive feedback, ah, I start to calm down. I start to think rationally a little more clearly, and I can be in a place that's more open to feedback. Or I can be in a place that's more— if I'm presenting, Where I am more open and I can see my audience. I can be with them, as it were, and I can take notice. Ah, I'm starting to bore them. Okay, I have to switch it up a little bit so I can be more present.

Yeah, so what— so positive feedback triggers the oxytocin, uh, it triggers the dopamine because it's that reward. This feels good, so I want more of this. And then, of course, segue back to the title of the show, the person goes, yeah, this feels right. And because it feels right, you've made them feel more confident again. You're helping them feel more confident to actually work with you and collaborate with you maybe on what they need to do to do better.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And this reminds me of, as leaders, As leaders, sometimes when we are in the audience or when we're listening to somebody present to us, somebody on our team, how we show up, if we show up engaged, that is giving a little bit of positive feedback. That's helping the brain chemicals of the person who's presenting to us do better. And so often we present to blank faces, folded arms.

Yeah.

But as a leader, you need to be aware, if I want my person to do really Well, what signals am I sending them out? And usually, if a leader starts to show up a certain way as an audience member, there's the ripple effect. The rest of the team starts to go, oh, my leader looks really engaged, then I will too.

Yeah.

And that helps. Then you bring that person who's presenting to you or sharing their ideas, you make them feel better. That oxytocin is going in them and they're starting to relax.

They will do better and they will show It's amazing how much power we actually have, whether you be a leader or just one-on-one with someone, about how you can have really an effect on the other person, speaking to their values, speaking to their beliefs, speaking to that oxytocin in them to trigger them, to get them engaged. So with just a little bit of time left, Katherine, where can we find out more about you and your work? And Optimus SBR.

Oh, great. Yeah. Well, I am at Optimus, so you can go to our website, which is www.optimussbr.com. You can find me there. You can find a lot more about our company. Also, reach out to me at katherine.hayos@optimus.com. And I, of course, am on LinkedIn, and I'm on Instagram at Katherine Hayos. So lots of ways to reach me and look forward to anyone reaching out.

Thank you so much for being a guest with us. This was a wonderful conversation today with Kristen Sherry. Thank you. And Katherine Hales about the keys to confidence. It's speaking to values, it's creating that ripple effect, it's triggering the, uh, the oxytocin that someone feels cared for. So thank you so much, everybody, and we'll see you next week. This has been TFR, This Feels Right, and I'm Joel Silverstone.

Thank you for tuning in to TFR, This Feels Right. Please join host Joel Silverstone for another edition next Friday morning at 7 AM Pacific Time and 10 AM Eastern Time on the Voice America Business Channel.

We'll talk again soon.