"How do you influence others to be at their best, in front of a camera?" Your headshot, your brand with guest Jonathan Ellul

You're listening to TFR, This Feels Right. TFR, This Feels Right. I'm your host, Joel Silverstone. Before we jump in, let's check in with our first guest, Jonathan Ellul. Jonathan, how are you feeling today?

I'm feeling great, Joel. I'm really happy to be here.

Good, good. I know we were talking about Steve Martin and the Pink Panther before, and whenever I hear that name, I just want to do that, that Steve Martin and the Pink Panther. Okay, I'm going to call you Johnny from now on. How's that?

That's great. That's great. All my friends call me Johnny, and you can too.

Perfect. Thank you. I'm a friend now.

Great.

I've made the inner circle. Lovely. This show is going to be called Lights, Camera, Action. Johnny is an acclaimed headshot photographer, and we're going to be talking about how can we get to feel more comfortable when we're doing something that is so stressful, such as getting your headshot done. We're going to go into much more detail about that, what you can do to prepare, and how Johnny's able to get the best out of you and why that is important. And we'll be talking about those influencing skills that he uses. And speaking of influencing, Listeners, you are in the right place if you want to be able to listen and learn about how to influence without manipulation. And what that means is we're able to connect to the logic so the other person goes, yeah, that makes sense, and most importantly, connect to the emotional part so the other person goes, yeah, this feels right. And so if you want to be able to shift behaviors, ideas, and actions, then that's what influencing without manipulation is. And today's show again is about getting that right headshot. How can we feel more comfortable? And we've got the right person for us today. His name is Jonathan Elul. And Jonathan— Johnny, I'm going to call you Johnny— has an interesting story because he's got 2 careers. He is a professional actor. You may have seen him at the acclaimed Stratford Theatre or touring across North America with the musical theater Forever Plaid. Maybe you've seen him in some of the numerous commercials that have aired across, again, North America, such as the Honda campaign. And what was the campaign that was playing on YouTube that had 40 million views?

If You Say Something.

If You Say Something, right. So that's 40 million views on YouTube. So check it out on YouTube. If You See Something, Say Something.

If You See Something, Say Something. That's right. Thank you.

And then in 2010, Johnny switched gears and rekindled his passion and love for photography just as his kids were being born and realized, yeah, he loves taking pictures of his kids and reminded himself of what the joy of this is and really about bringing out the best in them. And for the past 10 years, Johnny has been doing exactly that, bringing out the best in people for something so stressful, such a spotlight moment to get to know that you're about to get your, your headshot done. So let me pause right here. Johnny, is this correct? Is this where you're at right now?

Absolutely. You said it, you said it better than I could, actually. That's exactly— All right, well, good. Thank you.

So I want to talk about the magic of, of, you know, what we can do to, to prepare. And towards the end of the show, we're going to be sort of talking about kind of like taking our car to the shop. What's our 20-point plan that we need to do to feel prepared for our photo shoot? But let's Let's start at the beginning here. So you're a professional actor, and I think people always want to know, and I think this translates a lot into how you run your business as a photographer, is how are you able, or what's the mindset you need knowing that you've got a few seconds to put your best foot forward when you go to an audition?

Okay, well, that's a, that's a great question and, and something I worked over a lot of years to kind of make a system for myself. And there was a lightbulb moment I had after I'd been doing this for several years, which was shifting. We enter the room with a lot of nerves, a lot of ideas, a lot of of self-talk. And we're looking for the job, we want the job.

Yeah.

And I realized, having sat on the other side of the table a couple of times, and also having run my business separately as my side hustle as an actor, that if I wasn't offering trust in me, I wasn't offering enough. And so I learned to treat auditions as a free estimate. Whereas I'm going to show you what it's like to work with me. And I'm going to show up on time. I'm going to show up prepared. Prepared is the key to feel— to feeling in control of your nerves. The more prepared you are with the material and having some interesting questions to talk about, are going to put those nerves and stress at ease. And then walk in the room most interested to listen. I'm here to listen. And I'm going to offer, I'm going to offer you a couple of solutions, my way, my style, and as efficiently as I can. And that creates a memorable interaction. As opposed to the energy of coming in the room of, oh my gosh, I got to get this job. It could change my life. This is such an opportunity for me. And that's when I started to embrace that and apply that. And it wasn't easy at first. It was like, you know, it's a switch. It took several, several attempts to make it a habit of changing my mindset.

Yeah.

But all I can tell you is that's when I started to get recalls consistently. And that's when the quality of the work I was getting started to go up.

Johnny, where were you when I was a struggling actor?

I was struggling too.

Wait, here's the thing. I like what you're saying about the free estimate. 'Cause you were, as you're starting out in acting, you kind of started your own painting business.

Yes.

And that's where this light bulb moment came up with this free estimate, I think, which is, that's what you're actually— your business influenced how you're going to approach auditions.

Exactly. Exactly. I was painting houses and starting to feel like I was more valuable as a painter I was as an actor. And it was beginning to do my head in and I got a little depressed and anxious over it.

Yeah.

But one day I realized that the people I had, you know, I'd done the estimate, I'd walked through the house and listened to their concerns and how their improvements they wanted. And I Told them how I was gonna work and without a question, they gave me the deposit and the keys to the house and they were delighted. And I went to the car and I said to myself, I don't understand what— And the light bulb moment came there where I realized I was not selling a paint job as I was selling trust in me through paint. And the fact that they were not only giving me as much money as I asked for, but the keys to their house, knowing that there was their 2 teenage daughters were coming home to a strange man in the house every day. And the fact that they trusted me to be that person, finally is when I realized the value I was giving. It wasn't about the paint job. It was about a lot of other things and a lot of other emotional decisions. And that's when I started to think, how can I do this in an audition? How can I sell trust in me through acting? And it's everything. It's, it's showing up on time, but it, it's being prepared, and it's, it's being willing to listen and take it in and, and make the that person feel like you're here to help them. When you leave the room, there is a feeling attached to that experience. And the next thing they're going to look at is your headshot. And that's when I realized that actors— and substitute the word actor for solopreneur, entrepreneur, self-employed creative person, self-employed anything. You are your business. You are— the people are hiring you because of you and what you bring to the— what the solutions that you bring. And the most powerful tool you have is your likeness, your image, followed by your name and followed by your voice. Those are the 3 things that are trademarkable As you. So that's where this idea of branding comes in. And I kind of realized this all in the same moment, that when you leave the room and they're feeling trust in you and they're feeling opportunity, that gets connected to the visual image, which is you. You are the brand. It's not a logo, it's not colors on your website. Those are all the things that support that feeling. But that image of you is what they're going to remember. And I started realizing that large corporations, companies, and individuals— Coca-Cola, Nike, for example— work very hard on their image. And they— it's because we have an emotional reaction with their product, with their entity, and they have an image for that. And as artists and entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, we don't think of ourselves as that, but we are. We are a brand when we leave the room. Before we enter the room, what are they looking at? They're our picture. And they're wondering, is this the person for us? Should we bring them in? Let's bring them in. It's a maybe. When you leave the room and you either go to a yes or a no, it's a one-dimensional decision. But that feeling is what gets attached to that. With that knowledge, you can begin to influence how you show up. It's what we used to call a reputation. But now in this visual digital world, everything is followed by an image or preceded by an image.

Yeah, well, you know, you're talking about, I mean, it's even on your LinkedIn profile. Like a lot of people now are looking for work. Is there, is With what's going on in the world right now. So the picture that you have on your LinkedIn profile has to create already within a couple seconds a sort of an emotional connection.

Absolutely.

You know, I know, you know, my picture on LinkedIn definitely needs to be updated because it's like, it looks like I went to a Sears portrait studio. There's nothing there. I'm toast with no jam in that picture. There's no personality in there. I'm literally like Frozen in time. Nothing's going on. The eyes are, the eyes are dead. And we're going to talk about that, what's happening in the face.

Okay.

But what you're saying here is the emotional connection is so important. And this ties in with how to influence others without manipulation, is that there has to be an emotional connection. If our words and our voice don't match, you know, our tone, it's a giveaway. And what you're saying is that, that, you Maybe you come in, you have a great job interview, you have a great audition, but then they look at the picture and there's something cheesy about the picture or it doesn't feel right. It didn't match up to the person they saw. Then their eyes are telling them, sending a message to the brain going, it doesn't feel right. I don't trust this person. I don't— I saw something here, but this picture doesn't match it. And it's that attention to detail of you yourself that you're not maybe doing that attention to your own picture. that it should match the brand that comes in. And they said Coca-Cola and Nike is really focused on those attention to details. So let's, let's, let me ask you this now. Because this is so stressful, knowing that we now know this, right? So where is it? We now know within a few seconds, we're trying to create that trust that you, you have figured out as a photographer and going, okay, I know I need to create trust with this person. So what, what, how do you do it? Let's, let's say I'm coming in. Let's say I'm coming in to work with you.

All right.

And already, uh, uh, you know, my face would break out before knowing that I got to get my headshot done. I don't like the dentist. This is how it feels to go get the headshot. I also feel like I'm going to the dentist. I, I, I feel so much pressure on getting it right. Right. So—

Exactly.

How would you sort of walk me through it before, before we meet?

Okay, well, this is excellent because you are absolutely 100% on the right track. If you're feeling nervous, you are 100% human.

Good.

It's a very unnatural thing to do is to have a portrait taken, especially a headshot, 'cause we are trying to achieve an image that is completely natural and engaging, and yet we're standing in front of a camera with lights in our face and we're in a studio and it's extremely unnatural. We're looking down the barrel of a lens of a of a camera. Even highly skilled actors who spend their career in front of a camera get nervous and freaked out when getting a portrait done because they're looking straight down the barrel of a lens, which is not something you do as you're acting unless you're directly addressing the audience.

Well, you have a character, you have a character to play if you're an actor, you have an intention. Your only intention is here, you know, damn, I hope I look good.

Exactly, exactly. And, and fear sets in. On our conscious mind, right?

Yes.

This is normal. And some people are apoplectically opposed to having their photograph taken. And the reason I believe is that deep down in our subconscious, we believe that the camera contains our own harshest critic.

Uh-oh.

That the camera will record all those flaws that we know about that we work so hard to To cover up. And, and we're also not in control of pressing the shutter button. So we don't, we feel that there's so much out of our control that is recording our heart.

Oh, you, I'll just pause you right here because you nailed it, by the way.

Awesome. Yeah, good.

That's exactly it. It's like, I don't like me. Camera's gonna show that. And absolutely, it's all those fears of like, I am, I don't know what mask to wear. I don't know how to be myself in this moment. And so the brain is going, and that's probably why those pictures catch those people, like they're thinking as opposed to just being in the moment. Exactly.

So what happens is our conscious brain freaks out and thinks, I got to control this. Yeah, I gotta make sure my eyebrows are right. I gotta make sure my smile is in the right angle.

Right.

And so I'm here to teach you 2 things. One, I'm behind the camera and I happen to think you look amazing. I see what people see. I see why people want to hire you. I see the best in you and I'm going to show you pictures that reflect that only. And all the other ones we're going to delete. So that's number one. Number 2 is I understand that your conscious brain is trying to control everything and protect you.

Right. Yes.

And I'm going to help you ask your conscious brain to take a break because you and me and your subconscious are going to do some work together. And one of the good news is that your subconscious mind has 100% control of your expressions perfectly, 100% of the time. As you're working and you're subconsciously engaged, I could walk into the room and say, how you doing? And the look you'll give me without a verb, without speaking, I can pretty much gauge exactly the area code of your mood. If you're elated or you have an idea, It shows on your face, and that's your subconscious accurately communicating with the environment around you.

Yes.

And so I just want you to trust that your subconscious has always had control over your expressions. And I'm going to elicit some stimulus that's going to bring out natural expressions every time. And when I see your conscious brain trying to control, when I see your, your, your heart rate increase and your breathing, I'm going to just Calm us down. We're gonna slow down because what you're doing right now, listening, is more interesting than any smile that you could conjure. And if I were just to say to you, can you, can you narrow your bottom eyelids a touch? There we go. Now there's an expression that's real. Now it's like, okay, hold that there. We got that smile. Just go there. We got click, click, click. I'm gonna shoot 10. And as you're laughing, Yeah. On the recovery, We're going to get some winners and I'm going to show you this. And after a few things, you're going to kind of fully give over and, and go with the process. And it's a process. And believe me, I won't keep you there any longer than is needed. But I want to also be able to take our time and not be watching the clock because somebody else is coming in after you and we got to get this done. I want— And I think any photographer who specializes in this understands, but everybody's different. And some people are going to come in and give you that winning expression in the first 3 frames. And the rest of the time, we're going to just be playing and trying to even do better. And other people, it's going to take them a while. But when it clicks, you'll know it and I'll know it. And I'm always shooting. If I make you laugh, I want you to go with the laughter, not stifle it. If If tears come up, well, you know, it's okay. We'll step aside, we'll feel safe again, and we'll come back and we'll keep going. And that happens sometimes. Just letting go of all of this has an emotional release, and we just, we just take the time for that. And what I want you— what I want to do as your photographer is, is— Layer your confidence, how you look most confident subconsciously when you are in action, when you are in flow, combined with a slight approachability, a slight smile, a grin, a full-out laugh if it's elicited but not forced.

Right.

And these are the images that As, as human, like, as a viewer is going through, a casting person or a headhunter or employer, they're looking through. We feel confidence resonates when we see an image and we feel like, oh, I'd like to get to know that person. Or there's a softness here that as well as a strength that I like. We might not have the verbs, but we feel that. And—

And you nailed it, Johnny. I think that, you know, when I look at other— some headshots of people and you go, I want to get to know that person. I will— I want to work with that person. I like that person. And you don't know anything about them, but something is coming across. There's that— there's their personality somehow is coming across. And then you see the sort of the classic You know, they did headshots in 5 minutes and they had to do the whole organization. You— there's nothing going on there. It's a blank. It's a blank. You're looking at blank canvases. They all look the same.

They're out to lunch. Yeah.

Let me ask you this question, then we'll take our Improv Your Communication Style break, and then we're going to go with our Our 20-point checklist because everything you're saying about the subconscious is so important. So at the end, we're going to talk about all the conscious things you can do so that you can maybe, you know, relax your mind going into it.

I love it. Awesome.

All right, great. All right, so here's the, here's the, here's the question. You know, what, what is, what do you think is Is, you know, if I'm feeling like really stressed, what is something that maybe I can do, or maybe some questions that I could ask of you? Because I think if I'm trying to decide on a photographer, I'm looking at photos online, maybe of their thing, but that doesn't tell the whole story. It really has to be— I think everything you're saying is that there has to be a relationship and of what you are offering. So what, what should I, what can I be asking you maybe? Because you probably think that.

No, it's true. And depending on your market, you know, finding a photographer starting from zero can be very hard. Every photographer will tell you they can do a headshot. Very few photographers specialize in headshots only. And I think those are kind of where you need to go if you want a viable commercial headshot that's going to help you meet the people and build the relationships you need to reach your next level. I think when you're researching a photographer, you want to, you want to look at their work. You want to, you want to see if their work speaks to you? Are these images— is anything in these images compelling me to lean forward? Because that's the ingredient you want.

That's a great visual right off the bat. Like, you know, like, does it capture your attention for even a couple seconds? I love that lean forward because that's— yes, that is so good. Okay, great.

And then I think a headshot needs to do that. Then I think the second thing is to get in contact with that photographer. and see if it's a good fit for both of you. Ideally, that photographer is gonna ask you questions.

Yeah.

Is gonna wanna know where you're heading. They're gonna be looking for some sort of common thread that they can build on and they can build a relationship around. And that should be a very important indicator for you because you want a photographer who's gonna see you in the light that you want to be seen in. You want your photographer to see you as somebody who is not just willing and able but determined. Whether you are a management level in a corporation or you're branching out on your own, whether you're a coach or yoga instructor, You know, you want to come across as an authority and as an expert, and you want a photographer who's going to bring that out in the session. And they should, in their marketing and in their wording and in their conversation with you— get them on the phone and then you'll get a feeling. Does this person make me feel safe?

Yes.

Does this person intimidate me, or is this somebody that I actually am looking forward to stepping out of my comfort zone with because They've got this and they got— and, you know, you should feel like they care about you.

Pause right there because I think you just nailed it right there, is that that's, that's what we should be listening for when we meet the photographer, that they actually care about us and that they're curious about us and that we're not hearing their 10-step process. Well, we're going to meet at the studio and we're going to have the lights and we're going to use a DSLR 1200 to get the best shots and I've got an assistant photographer. You know, I don't— it should not be about the photographer. It should be about the client.

100%.

No matter what conversation we have, if we want influence without manipulation, it should be about the other person. And I mean, that's what you talked about the audition is when you're able to take the focus off of yourself and be focused on how can I be of service to this person? How can I make their life easier? I think it's the same approach you're taking to your business as a photographer.

Exactly.

Well done.

And as a client, I mean, I think that's separate. That should be a big influence in your decision-making. I mean, ultimately it will be. You're going to go with who you feel safe with.

It's got to feel right. I mean, you got to feel right. You got to look at the quality of the pictures, right? And, you know, do they have a studio? Are they shooting this on an iPhone in an alley? So obviously there's some logistics and the price has to be also within your budget. I mean, that's also gotta feel right, but it has to feel right with the relationship because you're giving up so much of yourself in that moment for something that's gonna last for a couple of years. That's gonna be your brand.

That's right.

All right, that's great. Let's take a little break here and then when we come back, we're gonna talk about those logistics. What is that 20-point plan, so to speak? What we can do to prepare. But before we get there, let's do something that we like to call Improv: Improve Your Communication Style. Johnny, are you ready to improve, improv your communication style?

I am ready, Joel.

We're gonna do something that's called Last word, first word. Here's how it works. You're only the second person to do that I'm gonna do this with, so good for you. We're gonna come up with a title to the story, and here's the challenge: we have to try to stay to the, the theme of the title of the story. So we can't— you can't all of a sudden go off track onto your own agenda. We've got to try to stay that we're talking about the same thing, same theme of the story. I'm gonna say a sentence to start the story, and You're gonna take the last word of whatever I said and you're gonna make that your first word. So if my last word was Nike, then you would start the— you would start the next one with Nike is a brand that's really good at connecting emotionally.

Okay.

All right, does that make sense?

Yes.

Okay, great. Here's the title for the story. The title for the story is I'm getting into musical theater. That's the title for the story. I'm getting into musical theater.

God bless you.

Ready?

Ready.

All right, here we go. Uh, so I'm starting it off though, right? So you don't know where it's gonna go.

I don't know. Okay.

Here we go. Um, well, I just watched, uh, A Chorus Line and I'm Motivated more than ever to get into musical theater, so I'm putting on my tap shoes.

Tap shoes are my favorite part of A Chorus Line. When he sings the song about stealing his sister's tap shoes because he can do that, I could identify with his Choice.

Choice is what's so good about musical theatre because you can do Broadway, you can maybe do operatic style. Um, I love it.

Love it if you like to move furniture because musical theatre is a lot of set changing if you're not a featured dancer. And scene!

Good job. How did that feel?

That felt fun.

It was hard.

It was challenging to take that first word and start a sentence with it sometimes, but then kind of keep it in the theme of, uh, of I'm going into musical theater.

Yeah. It's a good exercise because it's not always realistic in what we're saying. It's just, it's a good exercise to train your brain, train that behavior on not going off topic, not going onto your agenda, but really how can I collaborate with this other person to keep this sort of, you know, theme going. Like we're still collaborating and we're getting out of our comfort zone and we're pushing ourselves and we're coming up with big ideas. But when you have big ideas, it's always easier to have big ideas and then make them Smaller. So thank you for participating. And, and this is what, you know, the theme is, which is you should be collaborating with your photographer, right? There should be that collaboration. The theme should be you, the client, about what you are trying to get across and not let get sidetracked onto the photographer's life story or whatever. Like, we should be focused on— this is your time, take it.

Exactly. And it is a collaboration. Absolutely. There are 2 people that see the— there are 3 people involved in viewing the image. The images of you, right?

Yes.

Taken at the moment I chose that the viewer is experiencing. So it's— I can get pretty meta on it, but it's an absolute collaboration with the desired result.

I like that. So here we go. Photoshoot is tomorrow. And now that, you know, one's thinking, let's say I'm the client, I'm thinking, oy vey, here we go. I'm panicking. What do I need? What do— what can I do? I know Johnny's got it under control. I know he's got an idea. But what, you know, I, like I said, I want to somehow feel I've got some control on this. So what can I do? You know, do I need to iron my clothes, sleep better, drink water? I don't know, avoid alcohol, spicy foods.

I would say this is great actually, in terms of what you can do to prepare for your headshot session. If you're gonna have your hair cut, don't do it the day before if possible. Do it 4 or 5 days before. Maybe even a week. So you don't have that just-cut look. If you're somebody who works out, do your workout before the shoot. And then you just obviously, your skin will just look healthier and you're definitely a good night's sleep.

I like this thing about the workout because even if you don't work out, It sounds like you should probably at least go, don't just go from waking up and go right into the— go for a walk, get some fresh air, get some blood circulating in your body.

Get some blood circulating. And it, cause it'll just show in your skin and your eyes. A good night's sleep is important. Strive for that. I know it's not always possible. But yeah, like, If like, you know, don't be hungover if you can help it.

And iron your clothes, I guess.

Iron your clothes, take the time, and then you'll feel prepared. And just bring a few options, but not— you don't have to bring your whole wardrobe. Bring your favorite, the things that you look best in. And maybe one or two other options if you're not sure. Because the photographer might say, you know what, that blue shirt on that background is gonna look so much better with your eyes or someone, but you wanna be able to make those adjustments and—

Right. Don't bring the shirt that you feel guilty about that you don't wear and go, oh, I really should be wearing that shirt. Don't bring that because you don't feel comfortable in it.

Exactly. Don't even bring it.

One last question about this, and that's about makeup. So like men, women, so like should men be coming with makeup on? And then we'll talk about women.

Okay. No, men should not come with makeup on. There was a time in the, in the late '80s, early '90s when that was kind of a thing, but it is not now. And, and I'm shooting so close and so tight that the powders on men's skin is just too obvious and is a pain to retouch out. It's not necessary. Now, women, on the other hand, it's probably kind of important to have a professional hair and makeup artist there for your headshot. Unless you feel very comfortable with doing your own makeup, and then you'll have that conversation with your photographer. But most photographers will, and I provide a hair and makeup person if necessary, and you spend 45 minutes or an hour with them before the shoot, which is actually— it actually is great for the shoot because you're spending time on yourself. It's luxurious. You're being pampered.

Mm-hmm.

And it lends well to the photo shoot after, and you feel and you know that you look your best.

And that's the thing, it's a makeup person who knows, who's working with a photographer. So you're not just going to a salon and getting like makeup for like a bar mitzvah.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. These artists understand the lights I'm using and how close I am, and they're very You know, they just have the right tools for the job, which is a little bit different than the makeup you might use every day.

Mm-hmm.

So that's a choice you will make as it comes to, but understand that separate from a snapshot or a great photograph of you, a headshot has a job. A headshot arrives before you do and gives us some information and gives us a feeling, more importantly, about who you are. And you want to follow up that consistently. And, you know, that said about a hair and makeup person, don't get your hair done in a way that you don't wear it. Like, don't—

Right.

Like, we want you to come in, we want to photograph you looking as you look when you come into a meeting or when you show up for an executive brunch or, or a team meeting or a Zoom call. We want that to be consistent, uh, and that goes down to the makeup as well.

Yeah, I remember in the, in the '90s there, and even the early 2000s, in the mall there'd be glamour shots, right?

Glam shots!

Yeah, yeah, you're not looking for a glam shot, you're looking for, uh, and I love this, this is a great bookend because we started talking about this, that you're, you're, I love this, you say, Johnny, that you're Your picture precedes you before you walk in and after you walk out. It's the feeling that before it happens and after it happens, it should be that matching feeling. So it should look like you and it should match the personality or the brand that we just witnessed. So lovely, Johnny. Before we sign off, where can we find out more about Jonathan Ellul?

You can find me and everything about me at jephoto.ca and watch for this being updated several times this week. I'm gonna be doing a launch of my new studio with a limited time to get a discount on your session. So check it out, jephoto.ca, and I'm on Facebook and Instagram @jephoto.ca.

Okay, so on Instagram, @jephoto as well?

@jephoto.ca on Instagram, yeah.

On Instagram, okay, great. So that's a good— just to see some of the stuff and what you're up to, and of course, your website. Johnny, this has been great. Thank you. These are great tips. So thank you so much. And whoa, I feel a lot better about getting my headshot done. Goodbye, Sierra's portrait. Here we go. Goodbye, glam shots. Thank you so much, Johnny. This has been terrific, and we will see you next week on This Feels Right.

It's been an honor, Joel. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Charlie. Thank you so much for listening. And if this felt right and you would like to see this interview, then come on over to our YouTube page at youtube.com/thisfeelsrightpodcast. Or join the conversation with our Facebook group at facebook.com/thisfeelsrightpodcast. Or if you just want more influencing tips and communication skills, then please connect with me on LinkedIn, Joel Silverstone, Or come on over to Silverstone Communications at www.joelsilverstone.com. I look forward to connecting with you.