'Influence your audience to act as team - Feels Right'

Have you ever wanted to influence others to shift their behaviors, ideas, or actions without playing power trip games? If so, listen for the next hour. Welcome to TFR, This Feels Right, with your host, Joel Silverstone. You'll learn the tools and concepts to influence others with everyone involved maintaining their respect and understanding so it doesn't seem like it's all one way. Now, here is Joel Silverstone.

Hey everyone, and welcome to TFR, This Feels Right. We have our first guest with us, Carol Lempert, and before we jump in, we're just gonna say hi. So Carol, how are you feeling today?

Hi, good morning. I'm actually feeling really flattered that you think I have something helpful to offer your listeners, so I'm excited for our conversation.

Please, Carol, it is my pleasure, and I know you have something to offer. We definitely look forward to it. So once again, welcome to TFR. I'm your host, Joel Silverstone. Silverstone. For over 20 years, I've been helping people in business and sometimes in life to be more influential and using their communication skills to accomplish that. That means that they're able to speak to the emotions and logic to be able to get others engaged. Emotions, well, that's our first reaction. That's our gut instinct. That's that point where we ask ourselves, does this feel right? Well, ladies and gentlemen, you are in the right place if you want to learn from leaders, coaches, speakers who are going to be sharing their real-world business examples and perspectives on how they have been able to influence behaviors, ideas, and actions and not be manipulative. Today's show is a really interesting one because we have Carol Lempert and Stéphane Morel who bring their background and experience in film, theater, and television about how they are able to influence their audiences and help others to act as a team. So we're going to be talking about how they can manage our own presence, how they've been able to help others and themselves to influence without acting like the boss. Our first guest today is Carol Lempert. Now, Carol is a sought-after speaker, master facilitator, learning designer, and she specializes in executive presence, storytelling, and presentation skills. You may have seen or heard her being quoted in Forbes, Financial Post, the National Post, or even Reader's Digest. She's also a former professional actress and playwright. What she does is she helps executives and their leaders on not just what to say but also how to say it and uses those skills that she has mastered as an actress and as a playwright and helps others on how they can use those to really generate their presence. Carol, welcome to the show again. I know you're flattered. Here's my first question for you. I would love to know executive presence. What does that mean?

Mm-hmm. So I realized several years ago that there is something that actors understand about stage presence that really is at the core of what business people need when they talk about having executive presence. And what I puzzled out is that stage presence has these 3 dimensions, and I know you have a little bit of acting background yourself, so I'm curious what you think.

Sure.

But the first is see, the second's hear, and the third is feel. So the first, like, see, what do people see What does the audience see when they look at you, or the auditors, when you walk into the room? What does the audience or the auditors hear during the performance, the words you speak, your ability to make them believable? And perhaps maybe most important, what do they feel after the performance, or as you might say for your show, does this feel right?

Yeah.

So in business, it's the same. In business, it's the same. So let's take that first dimension. What do people see when they look at you? So do they see someone who's overwhelmed, distracted, someone who's unsure about what to do next 'cause there's just so much going on, or do they see someone who's confident, who's grounded, who's comfortable in their own skin?

Yes.

And my brother Sheldon is actually a really great example of this. I saw this crazy thing happen. I currently live just outside of Manhattan, but originally I'm from Michigan, Oak Park, Michigan. And a few months ago, I went home to visit. Whenever I go home to visit, if I wanna see my brother, my brother's a contractor, so there's gonna involve at some point a trip to Home Depot.

Mm-hmm.

So we're in Home Depot and we're standing at the corner of like heating and cooling, and I noticed this guy from way far off across the store, and he's walking in our direction, and he walks by a bunch of people. Some of those people happened to be wearing orange aprons that had big white letters printed on them, and he's got a drill in one hand, he's got a bunch of drill bits in the other, and he walks up to my brother and he's like, hey, excuse me, man, what kind of bit do you think I need to drill into cement? And my brother goes, hey man, I'm happy to help you, but I don't work here. And the guy says, oh sorry, you just look like you know what you're doing. So that's partly what presence is. You look like you're the person that knows what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good example of presence. It's feeling comfortable in your own skin and that certain kind of confidence that, as you said, when people look at you. So then let me ask you this before we unpack the the other ones, which was hear and feel. What is maybe the preconceived notions of what people think? You work with a lot of leaders, Carol, so what's their preconceived notion of what they think executive presence should be?

I often hear when I go in to work with organizations to run sessions on this topic that people are like, yeah, I'm interested in what you have to say, but presence, it's like you're born with it or you're not. There's this idea that it's a charisma. You're either naturally charismatic, or you don't happen to be naturally charismatic, and you either won the genetic lottery or you didn't. And what I've really enjoyed when I'm working with people is, you know, I went to theater school for 4 years, and one of my teachers in my early year of theater school unpacked something for me, because even once you go to theater school and you have this ambition, you want to be an actor, you know, you cross your fingers, you hope you're talented.

Yeah.

And my acting teacher said, it's not about whether you're talented or you're not. It's about your technique, and you practice your technique enough so that it becomes automatic, and when your technique becomes automatic, your technique becomes your talent. And so it's the same thing with presence. When you unpack what these skills are about, how can I show up that people see someone who looks confident, what are the skills of that?

Mm-hmm.

What do I say that they hear that I'm believable? How can I make them feel really comfortable when they're with me? Those are all skills that can be learned.

Yeah, that's really good because I think that I agree. That is the preconceived notions that leaders almost give up because they say, well, you either got charisma or you don't. If they don't, then maybe sometimes that's why they become more of an authority figure. They go, well, I don't have that charisma. I don't have that kind of confidence that I think others have. It's something that— what you're saying is something that actually can be learned and it's about practicing it.

Mm-hmm.

building up your awareness of, and I like this, going back to what do people actually see in you? So are you, what signals are you giving off when you're interacting with people? How does vulnerability play in that?

So for me, that goes to the quality of what do people feel. In a lot of organizations, If they're grooming a high potential leader to move to the next level, which is often when this conversation of whether you have or don't have executive presence comes into play around leadership. So they'll do a 360, and I think those are excellent assessment tools, and you get a tremendous amount of valuable information. You get information at the top level, what your senior executives are observing in you, from your colleagues, from your vendors, from your staff, you know, 360 all the way around. And what that tool provides to a high potential leader is what do people feel about them? And when I'm talking about executive presence, which layers in this piece of vulnerability for this last dimension, what do people feel? What do people feel about themselves when they're in your presence? Do they feel that you've got their back? Do they feel that they're cared for, that you've made a connection with them? And the way to make connection with another human being is to be authentic and show your own vulnerability. That as a leader, you don't always have to know everything and be 100% right all the time.

Yeah.

You have to be willing to develop the people under you. You have to be willing to share credit when they've done a good job. You have to be willing to take a hit for the team when you're talking to your boss above. And you have to be willing to share with your own team the mistakes that you've made. That's the vulnerability that I think you're asking about. So that your team can learn from you. I think that that really is at the core of that third dimension.

Yeah, that just creates vulnerability. I think it takes a lot of courage to have this vulnerability, to decide that you are going to be willing to say, I may not be the smartest person in this room. I may not be the expert, and I'm willing to share credit. I'm willing to share mistakes. It goes a long way to Creating the trust and what you said, it's not just what you're saying and how you're appearing, but it's how the people feel about themselves. I think that's a swish. I think that's gold.

Yeah. And so when I hear you say that for some people you have to be brave to be vulnerable, then that goes back to mindset. I think that you only need to be courageous or brave to be vulnerable if you have a mindset that vulnerability is weakness. If you have a mindset that vulnerability is actually human connection, that if I am willing to show my warts and all to you, then you'll reciprocate and you'll be willing to share your warts and all with me, then we have a relationship. That's a for-real relationship. If we're all just pretending that we know what we're doing all the time, it becomes sort of a transactional work environment. I think there's an element of mindset in there too.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Speaking of mindset then, the second one, we went from seeing to feeling. We skipped the second one, which is— let's go back to that, which is about what does your audience hear? What does your audience hear? Yeah. So tell me a bit more about that.

Yeah, an audience, I'm using that both in the large sense of the word, if you're on the town hall stage, if you're a leader that has to give a presentation, and the small sense of the word, if you're having, like you and I, we're having a one-on-one conversation right now. So what do people hear when they're in conversation with you? So are they hearing, and this goes back to the signals that you referred to before, do they hear warmth in your voice? People spend so much time on the telephone, so are you— do they hear the smile in your voice when they're having a conversation with you? Do they hear that you're interested, that you're curious about their world, their problems, their point of view? Or are you just waiting for their lips to stop moving so that you can get in what you want to say? And it's surprising how interesting people will find you when you're actually interested in them, that you're building relationships with them.

Right.

So when you're in meeting environments, when you are giving the presentation, do people hear you have energy, that you're committed to your own thoughts and your own ideas? I can't tell you how many presenters I've coached that they'll get to the town hall stage to give their presentation and they'll sound like this. I'm so excited about the new marketing initiative. I really think it's going to revolutionize the 4th quarter. And so that it could be just they're nervous to present. But that's not a skill-based thing. When I— afterward I'll say, well, did you rehearse? Did you practice before you got on the stage? Did you think about the fact that you were excited? Oh no, that hadn't occurred to me. I just, you know, I was working on my slides.

Right.

So there's this element of rehearsal and practice, you know, that from the world of the theater that you can be a bit more congruent with the ideas that you're putting out into the space. People hear the energy that you're bought into your own ideas. And this idea of what people hear, it's important when you're meeting people for the first time too, like in those networking moments. So a few months ago, I go to a lot of networking events for my own business, you know, to find clients. So a few months ago, I was at a networking event and after the presentations, there was this time to socialize, meet some new people. And so I approached this woman, she's across the room, she looked really nice. What do people see? She looked approachable. So the first element she had going on.

Right.

So I go up to her and, hi, I'm Carol. She says, hi, my name says Joanne on her badge. Hi, I'm Joanne. And so I ask I asked the question that people always ask at networking events, you know, so what do you do? And she says, I'm in title. And I go, I'm sorry, what was that? I'm in title. And again, I'm like, what? I'm sorry, what was that?

Yeah.

Just as she's about to say for the 3rd time, I'm in title, what I realize that she's telling me is that she sells title insurance.

Ah, okay.

But what I heard— yeah, but what I heard, what you might have heard, is I'm entitled Right. Which made me think, yeah, you kind of seem a little bit privileged too. So then that goes into that third element of presence. What do people feel? What I felt in her presence was stupid. Like, here she's trying to tell me something, I can't even understand what she's trying to tell me because she was talking in code. She was talking in a code that she thought that I understood, that I heard what she said, and I didn't.

Yeah, that's— I think that's part of the hearing. And going back to your example of the person who's disjointed with The words they're saying, the words are excited but they're not showing it, is they expect people to be mind readers. Can't they just assume that I am excited? Do I have to show that? Back to the entitlement. It's, I'm entitled. Everyone knows what title is. It's that mind reading skills.

For me, that goes back to the premise of your whole show, which I think is fantastic for your leaders. It's the emotion and the logic. What you were just saying, like, shouldn't they know that I'm excited? Can't they see the numbers? Those are exciting numbers. That's the logic. You're only appealing to the cognitive part of the brain of your audience members. But if you're going to do the emotion piece as well, which is your premise that emotions and logic work together to influence people, we need to feel it. We need to see it.

Yeah, because we need those emotions to substantiate the logic because we make a logical decision and we're like, okay, and then we check our gut instinct. And as you say, if we're looking at a leader, we're looking at that leader to substantiate that gut instinct with that smile or that warmth in the voice to go, Oh, right. This is exciting, as opposed to just the logic, he said it was exciting, or he or she said it was exciting.

Yeah. And I'll connect the language that you're using around gut instinct, which I think is similar to the language I'm using about that 3rd dimension of presence, is what do people feel? So let's use this example. I'm so excited about the new marketing initiative. In addition to the fact that I don't sound excited, so the audience might be falling asleep, And one of the core things about executive presence is that people are present with you. So if you're so boring they're not paying attention, you've kind of lost on that first metric. But also, do I believe you if I hear that you're bored out of your mind, but you're saying you're excited? The incongruency puts the doubt in my mind. So my gut instinct says to me, hmm, I don't know. I don't know if I believe that that person's really excited. And so now that goes to what do I feel about you? If you're my boss, and you come to me tomorrow and you say, you know that thing I talked about yesterday on the town hall stage? I'd really love for you to spearhead that project. If you're my boss, I'm gonna say yes, but I'm gonna say yes with a little bit of doubt in our relationship now. It's not gonna be my most pressing, high priority thing to do because now our relationship has suffered because now there's doubt in our relationship.

Yeah, and it's not even a conscious decision, right? It's that subconscious. It's your Spidey sense that's telling you that you're not as motivated had the leader not Put all those factors together about the feeling with the logic.

Exactly. If you don't even look like you believe in it, why should I believe in it? That's exactly that gut check that you're talking about. Yeah, for sure.

Carol, this is a point— I'm going to switch gears here for a second as we're talking about communicating with feeling and really what is the presence. I'd like to do a little break here. We'd like to call it our 60-second improv your communication skills or improve your communication skills.

I love that. That's from my whole acting world.

Great.

This will be a good segue after as we will talk about how people can use theater skills and acting skills to boost their presence. I'm going to take your suggestion. We had touched base a few days ago and your suggestion was let's try the exercise of one word at a time.

Mm-hmm.

I'll start us off. Basically, I'm going to start off with one word and you have no time to be able to think of the next word. And we're going to try to make sense and we're going to try to create a very brief story here and really be able to listen to each other and collaborate, keeping it obviously clean language. And at the end, we should have a story. But at the same time, we're just like executive presence. We're on the spot. We're in that spotlight moment. We don't know where this is going to go. Are you ready, Carol?

I'm ready. I am ready.

Okay.

I am a very happy listener because yesterday I went to turn—

would you say that again?

To where? Turn, T-U-R-N, turn.

Oh, in my resume to the boss who decided that he is going to promote.

Me!

Yay!

Yay!

That was fun. That was.

How did you feel?

I felt like on the edge of really focused. What's he gonna say and how am I gonna offer something that builds on what I've just heard? So I feel really focused and then kind of energized, sharp.

Yeah, yeah, like you really, you know, I mean, this is the key about really listening, I think, is that you The stakes are high in this exercise. Whether there's an audience listening or not, we should always treat the other person as though there is an audience because that other person is your audience and they want to feel respected. And yeah, it's nerve-wracking because you don't know where this is going to go. So you really have to trust the other person that they're not going to throw you under the bus.

Yeah. And the other thing that occurs to me as we're kind of debriefing, just having done it and it was kind of fun to do, Because all conversation is improvisation. I don't know the thing you're going to say, and so how do I know the next thing I'm going to say until I hear the thing that you are going to say? It might not be one word at a time. It's actually one or two sentences at a time, but conversation is improvisation, so that's why listening is so essential.

Absolutely. Well, we've got about 5 minutes left, Carol. What I'd like to do is I want to leave a little bit of time so we can talk about where to find I want to hear more about you, but before that, if you can give us maybe a couple tips that you've helped leaders from the world of acting. So we just sort of demonstrated a little improvisation, but maybe share some of your expertise with the world of acting and how that's helped leaders. A couple tips.

Yeah, thank you. So my mental orientation to life is as an actress. I'm an actor, actress. If I'm working with an executive that has to give a presentation, we'll start with their PowerPoint deck, because there's what you say and there's how you say it. What you say, for an actor, is the script. How you say it is your performance. So, I approach the PowerPoint deck like a playwright. Instead of just sitting down to type or creating an outline, I'll create a storyboard. And this is a technique that comes from Hollywood that kind of bleeds into the theater, as well. It started with Walt Disney in the 1930s. And we will use the 5-part narrative structure that I know from playwriting, from screenwriting that makes a compelling presentation to help somebody get their presentation in a place that the audience experiences it like a story. And much as we were just saying that you are doing one word at a time, one sentence at a time, in this case it is slide to slide to slide to slide. What a story is, is a series of events where people care what is happening next. So that is what a slide deck is. From slide to slide to slide, a series of events, we want to care from slide to slide what's happening next. So that's one way.

Yes.

The other is if I'm getting ready to teach or see a client, I think about what role I need to play for them, and then I'll ask them what role they need to play with their people. So for example, what role might I need to play with a client? Am I their coach? Are they coming to me because I'm the expert? Are we collaborating on a problem together? Am I the authority and I'm just going to tell them what to do? And so each of us plays different roles in our work. As a leader, sometimes you are the coach, sometimes you're the collaborator, sometimes you're the authority and the commander because there's not a lot of time and we got to do it quickly and you got to do what I say because time is of the essence.

Mm-hmm.

So I'll talk to people about what role are you playing and how can you step into that role in the most believable kind of way. So those are 2 examples.

Yeah, that's great. So, you know, wearing 2 hats from the playwright and the actor's perspective, so looking at the PowerPoint, the PowerPoint is a storyboard. It should flow in the sense that each slide is continuing the story and building on that story. It's a series of events, kind of like what we just did one word at a time, as you said. And I like this. What role do I need to play to really give some focus as to what's my intention here as a leader? Am I here as the coach? Am I here as the collaborator? Or there's just not a lot of time and someone has to be the decision maker here. Someone has to be the commander, as you said. Yeah, and—

I'm sorry, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

So when I'm pushing that idea with a client, I'll give an example from Actors. So if you think about someone like Meryl Streep, for example, early in her career, she did a film called Sophie's Choice. The character is a Holocaust survivor character, and there's many scenes in the film where she's trying to make herself small so she won't be caught, she won't be seen.

Mm-hmm.

So that's a low-presence character. So the role that she's playing is a role where she doesn't want to be seen— low presence— because presence can scale up or scale down. Later in her career, she played Margaret Thatcher in a film called The Iron Lady, or The Iron Woman. Iron Lady— no, that's Iron Man, is a whole other movie.

Mm-hmm.

Iron Woman. And so that's a high-presence character. And even in the film, Margaret Thatcher hires a vocal coach to help her deepen the pitch of her voice because she's going to be running for elections against all of these men. How can she sound more authoritative? So thinking about your presence as being something that you can scale up or scale down also has to do with how you're going to show up in your role. So that's another way that presence comes into play.

Scale up, scale down. Love it. Carol, where can we learn more about you and continue to get these insights and tips?

Oh, thank you. So the first easy place is I'm on LinkedIn and my name is C-A-R-O-L, Carol, L-E like Edmonds, L-E-M-P-E-R-T, and I post things every day on topics like presence like we've been talking about, storytelling for leaders, how to give better presentations, what your personal brand is. So I just posted a bunch of stuff earlier this week on personal branding. People can sign up for my newsletter, so they can find me at my website which again is my name, CarolLemert.com, and there is an existing resource library of a bunch of articles I've already written on lots of different topics too. I've got a YouTube channel, so there's a bunch of videos that I've posted about how to look good on camera for your own social media platforms, storytelling for leaders, storytelling for sales. There's some fun stuff. My acting stuff is on there too. They can check it out. And if people are interested in potentially working with me, they can reach out through my website. I do keynotes, I do workshops. I'm actually flying tomorrow to Brea, California to run a session called Own Your Own Brand Before It Owns You for a group of women in a diversity inclusion group. Lots of different ways to connect.

Sounds great. Sounds like a lot of fun. I'm going to take away again about that executive presence. Correct me if I'm wrong, Carol. It's 3 things for that executive presence. It's what do people see when they look at you? What do they hear? What do they feel, and I like this, how do they actually feel about themselves when they are in your presence as an executive? Is that correct?

That's it. Thank you for that. You were listening well. I feel great.

Well, now of course I'm going to be very conscious, as you said, about the level of your voice. Is there a smile in your voice? Are you sounding interested? Is there warmth? Are you curious? Because that is a great way to be able to influence And to speak to that, the logic is there. Great. That makes sense. But to substantiate it, even just the tone in your voice can go a long way to, as you said, so that it's really lined up and congruent with the message.

Mm-hmm.

All right. Carol, thank you so much for your time, and safe travels tomorrow as you go off to California to share this.

Thank you.

We will take a— yes, you're welcome. We will have a little break, and then we'll be back. We will be back with Stéphane Morel, who is an award-winning filmmaker, and he will be sharing with us his perspective on how are you going to be a director on the set. We often think of the director as the tyrant on the set, but a director actually has to bring people together to act as a team. I think we'll be pulling off a lot of these ideas of stage presence, of see, hear, and feel. I think we'll definitely go into that. So thank you very much everybody for listening to Carol Lempert. And again, if you're looking to find her, she is at carolempert.com. She's got some great resources there as well as if you want to contact her and share some of those acting insights that can really help leaders in their presence but also help leaders with their storytelling skills and a lot of new things that Carol's doing around your social media presence and how you can own your own brand before your brand owns you. So, I love it. So once again, this has been TFR. This Feels Right. I'm Joel Silverstone. And we will come back in a couple minutes to discuss further with Stéphane Morel around this idea of how do you influence others to act as a team. So thank you. We'll talk to you in a few minutes.

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Welcome back to TFR, This Feels Right. Before we jump in, uh, we've got our guest here, Stéphane Morel. And Stéphane, let me just check in with you, and how are you feeling today?

Uh, Joel, you told me this was an interview, not a game show, but I love game shows, so I'm going to go with Right, I Feel Right for $1,000.

Let's check our board and ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yes, that is the correct answer. Bravo. Well, it's great to have you and we'll share with the audience in just a minute as to your background and what the show is going to be about. Once again, I'm your host, Joel Silverstone. You are at TFR where we talk about emotion and logic to get people engaged and that emotion is that gut instinct where we ask Ourselves, does this feel right? And that substantiates that logical decision. So again, we are going to learn from leaders and speakers, and in this case, we have a film director, about how they are able to influence others, shift their behaviors, their actions, and ideas without being manipulative. So Stéphane Morel is our guest for this second part of the show. Stéphane is an international award-winning documentary filmmaker. He likes to think of himself— I think of himself I think of him as a storyteller. In fact, you give him a camera, a good hat, send him anywhere in the world, into the wilds of Mongolia or Patagonia or New York City, and he will come back with a great story that has been captured on film. The reason I'm having Stéphane on the show is, besides being a good friend of mine, is I've always been fascinated how Stéphane is able to Take people, the team and the crew, on these journeys that he goes when he's making these movies and to get everybody working towards a sense of purpose, really working as a team when they're not doing a traditional filmmaking way of doing things. So I've always been fascinated by that. And also, I'm going to learn more about how, as a documentary filmmaker, is he able to get his guests to be so vulnerable? So, Stéphane, thank you again for being on the show. So maybe we can start with that first question, actually, which is, you know, when we think of a director, we think the tyrant on the set. When did you know, or how did you know, that if you were going to get everyone to go along with this, there had to be a better way than being the director?

First of all, Joel, thank you for that lovely intro. And I have to say, I'd love to meet that Stefan guy.

He sounds great.

In many ways, I was born to be a tyrant. I'm an only child. And with that comes the romance with being in charge, the idea of being born to be the boss.

Mm-hmm.

The boss of the playground, the boss of my toys, and ultimately the boss of others. And sure, that sounds like a great childhood place to be. And, well, it doesn't work in the real world. And it certainly doesn't work in the world of filmmaking, and specifically in the world of documentary filmmaking. I've been a filmmaker as long as I can remember. And by that, I mean, I was kind of telling stories that I didn't know were worthy of being captured on film a long time ago. And in doing that, I thought, okay, this is great. This is a very private universe. It's a world I can be happy to live in. The only thing that's getting in the way is that to make these stories public, I have to collaborate. Hence, learning that being the boss isn't really the best way to collaborate.

Right.

You have to listen. Telling stories, the best way to tell the story is to listen, ironically. There's a paradox there, because certainly in the case of a documentary filmmaker, I harvest the stories of others in order to turn them into a story that I think might be of interest to an audience. The idea of being a tyrant on the set or a dictator or bossing people around, In theory, it sounds like the only way to go because there's— someone needs to be in charge of decisions, someone needs to be both creative and practical. The thing is, a man is no island in the filmmaking world. It's a collaborative process. You need to depend on each other. You need to be trusting of one another, mostly. And as you pointed out in your own show, you need to learn how to be vulnerable.

Mm-hmm.

And the secret to, or rather the purpose of that vulnerability is in allowing others to recognize in their leader that there's humanity there, that there's a person behind the structure and the decision-making that makes them a real person. that they can relate to, that they can identify with. And then that vulnerability becomes very contagious in the team where everyone feels like, okay, it's safe to expose myself, it's safe to maybe share my ideas, it's safe to contribute to the collective process, which is an artistic one and a practical one.

Yeah, you know, I'll just pick up from what you just said here. I think that's a great way to wrap up What you just said, which is this vulnerability becomes contagious. Because it's contagious, people start to feel safe, and because they feel safe, everybody on the crew starts to feel that they're part of the team and this is a collective idea. And the payoff to you, I'm going to guess, as the director, is that because you're doing a documentary film and you don't quite have the storyboard laid out, you're not quite sure where it might go. You're harvesting the stories, as you say. You might get some great ideas and suggestions. The pressure is not all on you. Now you're getting some different perspectives and insights versus you have to make all the decisions. Is that right?

That's right. To go back to a bit of the evolution of my career path, I started doing commercials and corporates and music videos and gradually migrated towards documentary filmmaking. What I discovered was the motivation for that. evolution in my artistic sort of pursuits was a very personal development as well. The more I became conscious of the value in connecting with others, the more I became curious about others, and that became a kind of mission for me creatively in terms of the kinds of ideas I wanted to explore in the world that were be, that would resonate with me on a very personal level, and obviously, on an artistic level, but that I felt were worth sharing, and that could connect with other people and inspire other people. One of the main ingredients to documentary filmmaking, of course, are interviews, or is the interview process. And interviews, as you know, Our conversations first.

Yeah.

You can show up with a list of questions and have a very precise agenda in mind. And if you want to go down that path, well, you'll probably reach an objective that's close to the one that you imagined in your mind, but it's not necessarily the most rewarding, either for you or for the person you're having that conversation with. Because what becomes meaningful in those conversations is what's unexpected. It's the truths that are revealed when you least expect them. And the way to get there is by agreeing to connect. And to connect, as I was saying before, you need to be vulnerable. And to do that, you need to build trust. Sometimes that takes time, but it's always worthwhile. The time, that is, and allowing the natural progression of a relationship, even if it's in the span of 5 or 15 minutes during that conversation. You just need to be real from the moment you enter the room. You need to be real before you even enter the room, for that matter.

Well, I think that's the whole thing about being real and vulnerability, you know, and what I'm hearing from you is Being real and being vulnerable, it starts with the mindset that you are parking your ego. So whether— if you're going to do an interview process, for example, and you just want to follow your agenda, or if you're going to be the director and you want to just follow what you've got and you're not open to potentially learning from others. And as you said, as an interview process can be actually meaningful, it could be the unexpected. I think it starts with, as a leader or as a director, or even just as a human being in general, if we're able to just park our own ego and this isn't about you, this is actually about sharing and learning from each other. Would you agree with that or what are your thoughts on that?

I believe it comes down to curiosity. Curiosity is the key to everything and it's certainly the key to emotional intelligence. If you are curious about the world, it implies that you're curious about yourself, and naturally, by extension, you're curious about others. You can only learn about yourself by allowing others to mirror your own thoughts. Just a very quick sidebar, I spend a lot of time with animals, and they're brilliant mirrors of that very phenomenon of if you listen, you will learn. And so that kind of curiosity is where I always want to take the conversation. And it's true on set and it's true in life.

Yeah, I agree. And I still believe that you're only going to be curious if you check your ego at the door. And I think curiosity comes from that you're open to the idea that you can learn more, that there is There is more to learn, that you're not the expert. I say that because I've worked with enough leaders to see that the ones who have a closed mindset, who feel that they have to be the leader and be the authority person in the room and are not really open to ideas or open to growing, that they don't have curiosity. They don't really ask questions and they show very little curiosity.

You know, if I walk onto a set, uh, and I'm— whether I'm working with people who, who know me or who don't know me, uh, it's obvious, uh, pretty much to everyone that I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm the director, uh, not because I come in yelling, uh, to everyone that— and announcing my presence.

Right.

It's obvious because I care. I show interest in everyone who's there. I meet them with my, my energy, but I also connect with them visually. And that is a sign that to everyone in the room that I'm there for them rather than they being there for me.

Well, you've also got that chair that says director, right? And you're wearing the beret and the scarf.

And the hat.

And the hat, right? All those things help to say, oh, here comes the director.

And the bullhorn.

And the bullhorn.

Perfect.

And since you do enjoy horseback riding, if you're wearing the riding boots with the pants in there as well, that helps.

I always show up with a whip.

That's right. All right. On that note, let's take a, what I like to call our 60-second improv, improve your communication skills break. And since we're talking a lot about about connecting with others and caring. I'd like to do a little something here that we call Yes— well, we'll start with something that's called Yes, But.

Hmm.

All right, so this is where you have no curiosity. So we're going to start it off and the suggestion will be, let's make this about you will be pitching ideas for a film. And I'm, I'm a producer. And, and just to let you know, as you're pitching these ideas, I'm always going to answer with, yes, but.

Okay.

All right, here we go. Whenever you're ready.

Oh, I'm to pitch my ideas?

Yeah, you pitch your ideas.

Yeah.

Okay, so I've got this crazy idea. I want to take a bunch of blind people across the Andes on horseback. And tell their story of a great, wacky, unexpected adventure.

Yes, but that sounds like an insurance nightmare.

Well, maybe we could use an insurance company as a sponsor for our project and help finance this film.

Yes, but then we really are going to get sidetracked now trying to find an insurance provider. That really narrows the field. I don't think so.

Look, here's the thing. This is an opportunity to do something that has never been done before. And by experimenting, by taking an adventure, it's an irresistible experience for the people who are involved and the people who are going to experience this as a film.

Yes, but it still sounds limited to who the audience is. All right, so we'll pause here. And now we're going to switch gears, Stefano. Now, same, we're going to go back in time. Do do do do do do. We're going back in time, and now I'm going to answer everything with yes and.

So did I pass the yes button?

We're going to. Well, I'll tell you in a second. We're going to go back, start from the beginning again, and I'm going to. I'm going to be answering with yes and from now on.

Sure.

Okay, go ahead.

I have an idea for you. I want to make a documentary. That features 3 people who have never even been near a horse before and who, oh, by the way, are blind. And they're going to ride horses through the Andes.

Yes. And that sounds like such a magical journey of the background and also the journey that these people are going to go through because they're blind.

You've nailed it. It's a journey. It's a personal journey. It's a spiritual journey. And it's a A physical journey. There's so many components to this.

Yes.

And that's such a broad audience that's going to enjoy this movie because it's going to speak to so many different people. It's in us to learn about being uncomfortable and finding new challenges in ourselves.

Well, if you think that blind people are willing to take the risk and have the courage to go on such an extraordinary Epic adventure. It can only be an inspirational, uh, experience.

And scene. Bravo. All right.

I like the yes and.

Yeah, for sure. Nobody likes the yes but person. He's a jerk. Um, how did, how did you feel when you were hearing yes but?

Backed into a corner. I needed to find a way to work around your objections that would somehow still remain true to my intention and my, and my passion, yet fit into whatever box you needed it to fit into. But I couldn't quite identify that— what that box was, because you just kept saying no.

That's right. You're not even hearing yes, but— you're not even hearing the yes. You're just hearing no, and you're feeling, uh, you're feeling like you're like the hamster on the— on the— I'm only Yeah, you're only hearing no. How did it feel? You like the yes, and? What, what did you like about the yes, and?

Well, it was collaborative, right? It was supportive, uh, and you were listening to the words I was using, you were listening to the ideas, you were listening to my enthusiasm, and I did the same. And I was able to not only repeat for the sake of repeating to indicate that I'm listening, but actually build on what you were saying. And all of a sudden And the idea that started in my mind as a good one became a great one because we were working together.

Yes, and that's correct. The idea of the yes, and improvisation exercise is one of the first rules of improv, which is—

This is fun, by the way.

Yeah, it is. Yes, and is exactly that. It is about collaboration. And it goes back to the mindset you said of when you come on the set, that you're going to come on. Yes, you're the director, but your mindset is about coming on. It's about connecting. It's about caring. It's a yes-and mindset. The yes-but mindset is, I'm going to say yes, but it's not really where I want it to go. I think I'm saying yes, but all people hear is the no. The yes-and mindset is exactly that. It's working towards cooperation and collaboration. Interestingly enough, of course, you were just talking about You know, one of your award-winning films, which is Blindspot. You know, we have a few minutes left. Can you, you know, maybe just share with us a little bit about this journey of Blindspot? And, you know, let's not worry about influencing others, but I think it is such a great story. If you want to just take a couple of minutes here and just share with us a little bit about the background of that movie.

Well, I happened to be crossing the Andes on horseback When the idea came. And I was talking to someone on that trip, and we were discussing how extraordinary a place we were in. And there was just no way to find the right words to express how profound that experience was. And as we talked about it, I was saying, yeah, it would be great to make a film, but it just seems so easy. to capture this on film because it's so beautiful. I'd like to say something deeper, more meaningful. And that's when the idea of bringing someone who couldn't see what I was seeing, but could experience it in a more tactile or, you know, spiritual way, and find words that were not descriptive of the place, but descriptive of the feeling.

Yeah, because that really is what comes across. These are, you know, they're visually impaired. And so a lot of the film is about, well, A, they're going to get out of their comfort zone, as you said in the yes, and. These are people who had very little to no horseback riding experience. But is the feeling that came across and what you felt as well when you were in the Andes Mountains—

Well, I did this I make this film for the same reason that I make any film, which is to learn, as I mentioned earlier, about myself and to learn about the world.

Mm-hmm.

It's always, you know, we started the conversation talking about being the boss. The fact is that there's always a reward. And the reward isn't bossing people around. The reward is creating something new and going to discovering a new place. And that's what the reward was for me in making that film. It was learning from people who could experience something that I would not be able to express from the tools that I have available to me now.

Mm-hmm.

And everyone who participated in the project, in the making of the project, but who also appear on film, and specifically the guides who assisted the riders, the visually impaired riders, They all were familiar with that place, or at least they thought they knew it well until they spent time with someone who hadn't seen it before, who couldn't see it.

Right. Yeah, it's again that other perspective that opens your— just opens you up to seeing things from a different point of view. And as you said, it's how everybody felt in that.

Well, the project was all about shifting Yeah, it's true.

Steph, with just a couple minutes left, where can we find out more about you? And is there somewhere where we can see Blindspot?

The first place to find me is at my website, which is stephanemorell.com. It's an easy solution to find links that will lead to all kinds of projects that I've made over the years, including Blindspot: Moments Unseen, which is the film we've been discussing the visually impaired riders crossing the Andes. There's an Instagram, there are Instagram links, there's Vimeo pages, there's Facebook pages, there's LinkedIn pages. Hopefully there are no wanted ads, but you can find me pretty much just by searching for my name online. And if you come up with a morel mushroom, you're close, right? But keep, keep going.

Right. stefanmorel.com. Absolutely. To find all the links to see some of the films. Currently, you're one of your films is playing at a film festival in California?

That's right, at the Coronado Island Film Festival. I made a short film about a sweet little old lady who develops a pen pal correspondence with inner city schoolchildren. And she discovers something about herself that she didn't plan to discover. She just thought it would be a nice thing to spend a few hours of her day writing letters to schoolchildren. And before you know it, an 85-year-old woman And learns a few things that she didn't anticipate about herself.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. There is— you know, we talked about vulnerability, and I think that's such a constant theme in yourself as a director that you're so willing to share and to connect. But it's also a theme that we see that you manage to break out into the people that are in these movies. And definitely, if one was to describe your movies, there definitely is the— we leave with a feeling after these films because there is so much vulnerability and so much openness. And as you said, that vulnerability is contagious, makes us feel safe, makes us feel intrigued. Stéphane, I want to thank you so much for your time today and for sharing really a different perspective from leadership of being the film director is about actually connecting with others. as your films do. So I want to thank Carol Lempert, our first guest, who was talking about, you know, a leader should be seeing, hearing, and feeling. And Stéphane, vulnerability and connecting is so important to the director.

So thank you very much.

I was a sensitive guy. Thank you very much for listening to TFR, This Feels Right. I'm Joel Silverstone. We'll see you next week.

Thank you for tuning in to TFR, This Feels Right. Please join host Joel Silverstone for another edition next Friday morning at 7 AM Pacific time and 10 AM Eastern time on the Voice America Business Channel. We'll talk again soon. Thank you.