Influencing big decisions and inspire change- This Feels Right!

Have you ever wanted to influence others to shift their behaviors, ideas, or actions without playing power trip games? If so, listen for the next hour. Welcome to TFR, This Feels Right, with your host, Joel Silverstone. You'll learn the tools and concepts to influence others with everyone involved maintaining their respect and understanding so it doesn't seem like it's all one way. Now, here is Joel Silverstone.

Welcome to TFR. This feels right. Before we jump in, let's check in with our first guest, Bryce Stewart. Bryce, how are you feeling today?

I'm doing fantastic.

How are you?

I'm doing great. Thank you. Well, welcome to TFR. I'm your host, Joel Silverstone. And for over 20 years, I've been helping people in business and sometimes in life to be more influential by using their communication skills. And being more influential means that when we make decisions, we need to hear the The logic and the emotions to be able to really connect. So, when we are going with logic, we're thinking, I think this is right. And the emotions, that's the title of our show, This Feels Right. Well, listeners, you are in the right place if you want to be able to shift behaviors, ideas, and actions and learn from our speakers and our coaches and our leaders in industry. Today's show is Great! It's called Influencing Big Decisions and Inspiring Change. So listeners, here's the thing. How do you be able to influence a person, a team, an audience to buy in? How do you get to that trust? And how do you influence change when it comes to diversity and inclusion? So listeners, this is going to be a really good episode. We've got the banker with us. Bryce Stewart. And we've also got the bank coach, Sarah Neville, with us, who will be joining us in the second half of the show. Now Sarah is also a keynote speaker, writer on communication skills, inclusion, and diversity. But let's start with Bryce, our first guest. Now Bryce brings to us well over 20 years of experience working in capital markets. He does mergers, acquisitions, real estate investment banking. He has led Almost 100 transactions that helped real estate clients raise over $13 billion of equity and advises clients on over $10 billion in M&A transactions. So, that's quite a profile, Bryce. Is this correct? Did I have it right? Yeah, that's all true.

That's 100% accurate. Well done.

Well, thanks. Well, this is interesting because we are talking about influencing big decisions. And as I read those numbers, the $10 billion, The $13 billion. Obviously, I'm not a banker but those are big numbers. So Bryce, you're in the middle of that. So here's my question because it is about influencing. You've got the logic. You've got the data. You've got the analysis. What have you learned over the years to be able to influence people to really be able to shift their ideas and their mindsets towards agreement, towards, yeah, that this makes sense? What have you learned?

Right. I actually think the first thing is that you need to be open to having your own opinion changed.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think if you go into a situation having convinced yourself that you have all the answers, I don't think that's a great starting position, because for a few reasons. Number one, I think people can sense that, and it can be off-putting. 2, it's probably 9 times out of 10, or even maybe 10 times out of 10, probably not consistent with reality. And 3, I think it belies a mindset of not being open to, frankly, constantly learning, which I think is so important. So I think the first thing is actually that you need to be open to being wrong.

Yeah.

That's happened to me so many times where I think I've got the right perspective, and then you start listening to someone, you realize actually, They have a point. I think that's the first thing is actually that you actually need to check your assumptions.

That's brilliant. I think one of the first ways to get people in negotiations to really agree or to be open is to go, yeah, you're right.

Right. Yes. Definitely puts— I mean, even if you don't mean it, as Machiavellian It definitely puts someone at ease, but I do think that having the capacity to listen— the old line is, you're given 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason, but I think the capacity to listen, to empathize is super important in business and frankly, in life.

Yeah, it's about really— it's not listening for your assumptions, which is really interesting. How did you How did you figure this out? Was there a moment? Was there an aha? Was there sort of a failure? Did you watch someone else do this? How did you realize that? Because that's quite a big self-awareness moment.

I think I have to think about that for a minute. I think probably most importantly is I think it's so important in life to have good mentors.

Mm-hmm.

And good teachers. I was fortunate enough in life to have a series of really good mentors in my life, and some of them were my bosses and some of them weren't. I think you can learn just a ton from just watching people that you respect. Frankly, I think it's— I'll put it to you this way, I think it's underrated who your circle of who's in your inner circle. I think that's something that you really need to actually work at and cultivate in terms of who is surrounding you. There's the old line, show me your friends, and I'll show you your future. I don't know if it's as cut black and white as that, but definitely, who's in your atmosphere definitely influences how you're thinking about things. I think the first thing was frankly, Just having people I could learn from in my life to teach me that. I think also, you can learn it through experience. I don't know if you've ever had the experience of going shopping and having a need that you need fulfilled through purchasing a product, and you go and engage the person at the store, and you tell them what you're looking for, and they start trying to sell you something. It's like, this person is not listening. I think like even frankly, you can just draw it from life, like the way that people treat you can inform you in terms of, okay, that's not how I want to behave in business.

Yeah, it keeps coming back to really being able to listen and this adaptability. Now, you've also, because you're in a global area, and that's your expertise in dealing with different cultures. Have you learned some ways to adapt, or what have you picked up in dealing with the different clients globally?

Yeah, I guess there's a couple of things. One, probably, there's no such thing as one size fits all. The particular institution that I've worked with for a number of years was a global institution, so it enabled me to really travel the globe in my position as advisor. For sure, there are cultural differences that are actually quite stark. Even within Asia, the countries within Asia, there is massive differences. in the way people behave and transact in China, and frankly, even within China, Hong Kong versus Shanghai, that would be remarkably different cultures. I think just frankly, there's things you can do in advance of those meetings, and there's things that you just frankly learn in the moment.

Yeah.

I'm going to say 2 things which are going to sound contradictory. But the first is do your homework. And so, there's things that you don't have to start from scratch. You can talk to people and read things and learn from others. Just asking questions is a great way to learn. How did you deal with that? How did you learn from that? What was your experience? What was the thing that you learned? What was the thing that was most surprising? You can learn a lot from asking questions. Questions. My dad actually taught me that. The second thing is, and this is going to sound contradictory, but when you go into a meeting, do not overprepare.

No, it makes sense.

Because what happens is in these situations, you need to learn to think on your feet. If you overprepare with your own agenda, and you go in there and you've got it wrong, You're not in a mindset to switch it up and go wherever the conversation leads, it can be a really flat meeting. Do your homework, but then don't overprepare. Go in knowing that the thoughts you have in your mind might not be right.

Bryce, that makes total sense. Again, it's talking about this model of influencing, which is to have the logic and to have the emotions. The logic is, do your homework, come in prepared so that You don't feel like you are improvising, that you're scrambling as you're going through. Have a baseline. But going back to what you said at the very beginning, which is taking ownership of really being able to listen and adapt, it's that when you go into that, don't be married to your assumptions or married to your judgments that you made because that's— what you've got there in that homework is maybe some facts and also maybe some opinions and some myths. Like you said, you ask people and they might tell you something. That becomes a story, and that story becomes a myth. Then if you start believing that myth, you get into that trap, as you said, of being overly prepared.

Yeah, I think for me, I think the term— a lot of my career, the job was to generate revenue for the firm I worked for. You can call that a form of sales, but as I've come to learn, I think the term salesperson, is a bit of a misnomer. I think what would be a better term would be solution provider.

Yeah.

I've learned to not go into a meeting trying to sell someone something, because that presumes I actually have the answer. I may have the answer, but I may not have the answer, because the types of businesses that I was dealing with, they're very large, complex, and complicated businesses, and I can't presume to actually know definitively what their issues are. It's not always obvious what someone's issue is.

Yeah.

That's because people are actually not highly motivated to be that transparent with the planet and frankly, with bankers in particular, to be that open and to say, actually, this is our struggle. It's just human nature to not really be that vulnerable. Really, what I think what management teams are actually looking for is someone to help them solve problems, because that's frankly why they're there.

Yeah.

That's their job is to solve problems. If you can go in there and be part of that solution, that's very valuable for them.

Well, this is a good lesson because as you gave the example earlier about walking into the store and the salesperson isn't listening to you, they're just right away pushing product. It's the same thing. It's not being of service. So whether we're selling, putting together a billion-dollar merger or acquisition, or we're trying to sell an idea, no matter what we are selling it, we're not really selling it. It's how can I be of service and really—

Right.

help you, other person or audience, solve this problem or at least take the steps towards this problem. So, solution provider is a great mindset in whether we're, again, whether we're selling that billion-dollar acquisition merger or we're just trying to sell an idea. Being of service is so important. So, let's do this. We're going to come back and talk about your experience as well as being the hockey coach. And I also want to talk a little bit about this sort of life-changing experience that you had before you got into banking. So, we'll come back after the break. This is our break. We're going to take a little what I like to call, Bryce, Improv Improve Your Communication Skill break.

Okay.

All right. So, this is what we're going to do. This exercise is going to be called Yes, But. We are together on the hockey team. We're both— you're the coach. I'm the team manager. I would like you as the coach To get me, as a team manager, to get me intrigued into the idea of moving up another level, going to that next level of hockey. That next year we go into the next level. Just to let you know ahead of time, I'm always going to answer with yes, but as I start my answer.

Okay.

All right. So whenever you're ready, you're trying to convince me that we should move up to the next level in hockey.

Okay. I'm going to be a little tricky here. So I'm going to say that— I'm going to start with this.

OK.

What do you think the single greatest frustration our team has right now?

Uh, yeah, but I'm really short on time, Bryce, so maybe just cut to the chase.

All right, so, um, let me explain to you what I think, um, is a frustration of the team right now. We are Winning every game. And while that may not sound like a problem, it's the way we're winning. So, um, do you remember what the score of the last game was?

Yes, but, you know, winning is good, and, and I see the kids being happy, so I'm not sure this is the route I want to go down. Right.

No, and listen, you know what, I hear you, because it is fun to win, isn't it?

It is. All right, pause right there. You're doing great. You really came prepared for this. Way to go, Bryce. You're really showing us that. We're gonna switch it up now. Same thing, don't change anything. That was fantastic. Great example of communication skills. We're gonna do the same thing, but this time I'm always gonna answer with yes, and. So we're gonna go back in time to just like 2 minutes ago and start again, and I'm answering with yes, and. And take 2.

Okay. Let me ask you something. What do you think the single greatest frustration our players and our team have right now?

Uh, yes, and that is a great question. Uh, God, there's so many. I'm, um, what do you, what do you see it?

You know, I agree. You know, there really is probably more than one. Um, I think one of the bigger ones is, um, I think ironically, I think the kids are frustrated that we're actually winning too much.

Yes, and I agree, because if it's, if it's too easy, um, you— they get complacent, or they're just not, um, yeah, they're just not challenged enough.

Exactly, exactly. So what do you think we could do to change the dynamic?

Oh yes, and I really like where this is going because I think we could really— all right, we'll pause right there because we're collaborating. All right, so Bryce, let me just ask you how, you know, this ties into a lot of what you're talking about, really being able to listen and not jumping in with solutions. How did you feel when I was answering always with yes, but?

I felt like I was meeting some resistance. Yeah.

Um, it was, it was like, it was like the goalie is like the size of the net, right?

Right.

You just, you just, you just try to find it somewhere, a gap in there, right?

I, I did not feel there was a lot of openness to even have the conversation.

How did you feel when you were being yes-anded?

Well, it's obviously far more, uh, a far more relaxing experience. And, um, you feel like, um, yeah, that you use the word, which is collaboration. It did feel like there was more collaborating.

Well, congratulations. Bravo! You just did your first improv exercise. And that rule, of course, is yes, and, which ties into so much of the things that you're talking about is be prepared but go in with a yes, and mindset, which is yes, and how can we adapt and collaborate with this? So, that was a nice tie-in to what we were just talking about.

That was fun.

Yeah, it was. Let's talk about hockey. But before we talk about hockey, I want to come into this, Bryce, and I always found this a great story, which was before you got into banking, you were in consumer goods. And something told you this was not the place for you.

Right.

What was the aha there for you? What was that moment that you go, hmm, this doesn't feel right?

Okay. I guess I'll— yeah, so I will tell this story. It was very illuminating for me. And I forget, Joel, if I've actually told you this story or not. But basically, what happened was I had convinced myself that consumer packaged goods was something that was going to be attractive to me and fulfilling for me. in my career, and for which it is obviously for so many people and such an important industry for the planet.

Mm-hmm.

But I'd never actually done it. And so I took a job with one of them. This would have been back in 1997. And on day 3, we were called into a room, and I guess the president of the company for Canada had an all hands on deck meeting. The purpose of the meeting was to let us all know that we'd done it. We'd done it, and that we had successfully secured the image of the Incredible Hulk for our cereal boxes for the month of X. And the place erupted. And it was like this was their Super Bowl. And I remember thinking, you know, this does not excite me as much as the people to my left and my right. And I need to pay attention to this. So I actually— I sought other employment very quickly thereafter. But that's what happened.

Me like cereal.

And then it became Bryce smash this job.

That's right. Well, what I love about the theme of all this, Bryce, is that this is— when you made that decision, this before emotional intelligence became popular buzzwords, that you had this self-awareness about what is important to you. That if you really want to be of service to other people, if you really want to be invested and you really want to be passionate, you need to be— You need yourself to be surrounded by people that have high expectations, a high level of passion. So having that kind of awareness, I think, is really impressive. So kudos to you. I think that's why it's a good story for everyone to be able to ask themselves this question about, where am I that ties in with my values and my beliefs, or am I just fooling myself?

Yeah, I mean, I think it was— I mean, it was— I'm not sure it was all that. I mean, I was really kind of acting out of instinct more than a strategy. But it was for sure, I guess you're right. I was listening to the— I'll stick with the superhero references. My spider sense was tingling.

Yeah.

And so I was paying attention to it. And I think that was— it turned out to be a very emotionally intelligent thing to do, I suppose.

Well, that's it. That's— well, I strategized your spot, your spider sense.

All right.

Thank you.

Let's— with a couple of minutes, let's talk. Let's talk about the hockey coach. And again, Bryce, you know what I see about you're the hockey coach and is I see a lot of other coaches and this is still quite surprises me in this day and age. They're still screaming at the kids on the ice in front of everybody, like still screaming. Yes, you're getting excited, but you're not screaming at the kids. You're not demeaning the kids. You're not making the kids feel smaller. You're really working hard to make them feel bigger and to challenge them. What I also like is how you also communicate with the other coaches. I see a lot of trust and delegation to them. There's really more— the mentality of the team is there, not just with the kids, but also with the other coaches. Is that deliberate, or how did you come up with that?

I would say that— I need to think about this. I think I was— I guess the strategy was selecting good people to be around me, to help me. I guess that is where the strategy was. The folks that we have on the team as part of the coaching staff are— I would describe every one of them as exceptional in their own way. I think in some ways, my job is to set the tone and to establish the strategy, but to really allow them to flourish in the areas that they're capable. I mean, and it's one of those things where as I see the productivity, I'm able to relax. So, we have a situation now where one of our assistant coaches is becoming increasingly involved in frankly running the practices. And, he's gifted in that area and I can see it. And so, it's just giving people the right space to do what they actually want to do and are good at. And, I enjoy that. And, um, it wouldn't— um, I don't think— I mean, it's— I guess the other strategy is I, I wouldn't want to do it any other way because I want it to be a fun experience for everybody. And I want, um, I want them to continue. I want them to stay. So, um, I guess it's strategic. But I, I, um, I guess when it works and it's fun, it doesn't really feel like, um, work. It just feels like, um, it just feels like it's fun.

If you mean it feels right, is that what you were looking for?

That's the word, Sergio. It feels right. Both Both in my gut and my head.

Yeah. I was just looking for some soundbites.

You can edit that. Yeah, you can make it. Yeah, exactly.

Post-production. Exactly. Well, you know, this is, as we're coming to a close, Bryce, this is a great loop because you talked about how you learned is surround yourself with the right people, that inner circle as you said. And it sounds like that's what you've done with, you know, the fellow coaches and your team manager and also having the the right kids on the team, not to say the most talented, but the right chemistry. You don't necessarily want the hotshot, but it ruins the whole chemistry.

We work very hard at creating a good team culture. If you had 15 hotshots, I'm not sure it would work because you probably wouldn't ever get out of the dressing room. I think team culture is super important. Having an atmosphere that is warm and inviting and encouraging is important. That all starts at the top. That all starts at the top of the pyramid. Yeah.

Well, Bryce, thank you so much. What we take from this is, again, it's not sales, it's being a solution provider, whether that be selling a $13 billion merger acquisition real estate investment to an idea, to putting together the right hockey team is making sure that everybody is listening to each other, that they're supporting each other, and that we have a common purpose into where we want to get to. So Bryce, where can we get in touch with you or find out more about you?

So I am on social media. So I'd be delighted if people wanted to reach out. I'm on LinkedIn, so Bryce Stewart. And I suppose you could also find me on Instagram and Facebook, but LinkedIn would be a good place to start.

Lovely. Well, thank you so much for your time this morning, Bryce, and best of luck with the team this year. We'll be back right after the break with Sarah Neville, who will be talking about banking, helping bankers present, but also around communication skills within diversity and inclusion. So we'll be right back. Our guest, Bryce Stewart. Thank you so much, and we will see you right after the break.

Become our friend on Facebook. Post your thoughts about our shows and network on our timeline. Visit facebook.com/voiceamerica.

The pace of change in the world is increasing exponentially and shows no signs of slowing down. Leadership is The world is evolving and requires more and more innovative leaders to keep up. Innovating Leadership: Co-Creating Our Future with Maureen Metcalf features interviews with global business leaders, thought leaders, and academics in a wide range of industries. Proven concepts and tools may be applied to build your organization and deliver sustainable success. Tune in every Tuesday at 2 PM Eastern Time, 11 AM Pacific, on Voice America Business.

Leadership is a vital skill set in today's competitive global economy. Being a leader is not enough. To succeed, you must optimize your performance and know how to imbue others in your organization with leadership skills. Practical, actionable leadership insights are the focus of Leadership Development News, hosted each Monday at 9 AM Pacific, noon Eastern, by Kathi Greenberg and Relli Nadler on the Voice America Business Channel. Doctors Greenberg and Nadler, who coach global leaders on how to be most effective, will share their insights and contacts The path to leadership excellence begins here.

The Voice America Live Events channel is here now to showcase your corporate, individual, or organization's live event. Visit voiceamerica.com/liveevents to see all of our past live events and find out more. Whether it's a multi-day conference, special speaker, or single-day event, we've got everything to make your event a success. We can do a few hours, or a few days. For more information about taking your event to the next level, call Jeff Spenard at 480-294-6417 or email info@voiceamerica.com. Again, that's Jeff Spenard at 480-294-6417 or send us an email to info@voiceamerica.com. Voice America is where you are and where you want to be. Join us around the globe as we broadcast live from some of the Interesting events available. Don't forget to view all our live events, including on-demand access to past events that you may have missed, by visiting voiceamerica.com/liveevents.

Have you become a member yet? Sign up now to become a member of Voice America. It's always free and easy, plus you get to take advantage of some great member benefits. Get unlimited access to millions of hours of on-demand content across all of our channels. Keep track of your favorite episodes, shows, and hosts in your own customizable library. Find out what shows you might be interested in based on your favorites. Plus, you get insider access with our newsletter. Membership gives you more. Sign up at voiceamerica.com and click register at the top right.

You are listening to TFR, This Feels Right. If you have a question or comment for Joel Silverstone, Please send an email to joelsilverstone.com. Again, that's joelsilverstone.com. Now back to TFR.

Welcome back to TFR. This feels right. Uh, before we jump into our second half of the show, let's check in with our second guest right here, Sarah Neville. Sarah, how are you feeling today?

I'm feeling great.

Great. Good. Well, welcome back to our second part of this show. Yes.

I was going to say, it feels right. So far, it feels right. Great.

We are always looking for soundbites. So, thank you for that. And as you know, listeners, This Feels Right is about how we're able to speak to the logic and to speak to the emotions. So, we go, I think this is right. And yeah, this feels right. And so listeners, again, you are in the right place if you want to learn from leaders and speakers and coaches which is on how to be able to shift behaviors, ideas, and actions. And today's show is again, how do you influence a person, a team, or an audience to buy in? How do you get to trust? And then, how do you influence change when it comes to diversity and inclusion? And we've got with us a great guest to talk about communication skills, diversity, and inclusion. And we were just talking to the banker. And here we have someone who coaches a lot of bankers, Sarah Neville. Who is also a sought-after speaker on communication skills in business and diversity and inclusion in business. She's the founding partner and director at OpenLine. She's an instructor at the Rotman School of Business. And you may have read some of her contributions. She's a regular contributor to such publications as Forbes magazine— fancy— Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star, and the Huffington Post. So Sarah, before we go any further, is this correct? Is this what you've been up to lately?

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. That sounds great.

Great. Well, we were just talking to the banker and I know, Sarah, you do a lot of coaching to bankers on presentation skills.

Yeah.

Specifically on presenting to inspire action, one of your courses. What do you find is some of the keys when helping them? What are some of the key points that they need to— they could be better at?

Well, I think for a lot of people, particularly people who work in the financial sector, but this is true of a lot of sectors, is that when you're trying to communicate information that is very technical, that's got a lot of data, that's got a lot of information. The challenge for a lot of people is to take that information and to simplify it and to, uh, to, to get their idea into their listener's brain. And, you know, communication is a process of translation. And so, you know, I communicate, you receive the message. And what I always say is, if the receiver didn't receive the message, then you didn't communicate with them. So when you're, when you're communicating, complex things like numbers, it's really important to look at what is the key message behind the numbers? What is the story that you're trying to tell and how can you tell the story that the audience is actually going to be interested in and what's meaningful to them?

Yeah, that's, you know, as we were speaking to the bankers and he was great. He did a great job of not getting into, you know, because part of his intro is that he's done $8 billion in mergers and acquisitions and $13 billion in this. And what he said was a lot of what you're speaking about, is that if we want to be able to influence people, it is about coming in and being able to communicate on their language so that they're actually hearing what you say, not what you want to sell, but what's important to the audience or to that other person.

Yeah. And what I really liked that he said was about this idea of solving problems. He said, I'm not here to sell. I'm here to solve a problem. But the idea is that, you know, you go into those kinds of meetings and assuming that you know the problem when it often, that's not what we know. You know, we don't know that right off the go.

Right.

So, in terms of when we're talking about presentations, whether it's, you know, whether it's a high-level pitch, you know, in a capital markets context or whether it's an internal meeting, where we need to start, and this is where we always coach people, is to think about Start with your audience. What do they care about? What do they need to hear? What do you want them to do with that information at the end of your presentation? Oftentimes, it's surprising how often people go in without having gotten clear on what is my goal and what do I want the listener to do with that information.

Yeah. Again, whether we're selling that $13 billion acquisition or selling it or selling an idea, it's clarity as to before you go in as to not just being focused on my product but why they should care.

Why they should care. Yeah. What's their problem? What are they worried about? What are they hoping for? What are they dreaming about? And what might get in the way of them doing what I'm asking them to do?

Yeah.

That was one of my first sales jobs was working in a shoe store where specifically for the clientele was older ladies. The challenge for me was that the manager was always on me about, you sold her the shoes but you didn't sell her the matching handbag. I was like, oh, I didn't want to push that. I didn't even bring it up. I didn't want to push it. Then I still remember to this day. I quit because I'm not going to be that kind of person. It goes against my values. I'm not going to push the handbag. And I told my grandmother and she says, how was your day at work? I said, I had to quit because I was a handbag pusher. And she says, oh, I love it when they offer me the handbag.

Well, there you go. You needed to know your audience in that case.

Well, that was the thing. It was reverse assumptions.

Yeah, that's right.

It was reverse assumptions. So speaking of reverse assumptions, let's talk about diversity and inclusion. And specifically, you know, you've written a lot about and you talk a lot about this idea of microaggressions, where it's that little non-intentional, usually non-intentional, but it's a slight. It can come across as hostile. It could be verbal. So, you know, tell us a little bit more about that and really A, I guess, how do we build our awareness that we're maybe doing it? And then how do we respond to it when we notice it? Sure.

So microaggressions are the kinds of slights or comments that we, that we make and that we hear that are by definition unintentional. So there's something that, that happens in, you know, in day-to-day conversation in the workplace, in our, in our daily lives where somebody may feel offended or marginalized, and usually when we hear of a microaggression, it's something that's based on some aspect of our identity. So whether it's our gender, our race, our cultural identity, our generation, our age, that kind of thing, that some kind of comment that is offensive to us and that crosses the line in terms of who we are But the speaker is unaware of that, and it's unintentional. So there's a difference between a microaggression and actual expressions of racism or sexism that might be much more explicit and may even be known. So that's what a microaggression is, and they tend to be the things that may seem small, But that are often felt to be, often felt quite strongly by the receiver.

And I think we've all been in a situation where we've delivered a microaggression. We've said something that's, again, totally unintentional, but we didn't realize it till actually someone had the courage to come up to us and say, by the way, I know it wasn't your intention, or maybe not. Maybe they actually say, hey, when you said that, that was really hurtful. So here's my question, right? So how, or is there a way for us to be more aware of when we are doing these things?

I think it's, you know, I think it's the first step, I think, would be to be mindful of the kind of, just of our language and the kind of comments that we make. And is the comment that I'm making something that I would make to somebody else of a different gender or sexual orientation or cultural background or whatever. And if it's very specific, we're going to just stop ourselves, take a moment to think, how is this going to land? Am I sure this is going to be received the way I think it's going to be received? And just take a moment of pause. Now, that said, we all step in it sometimes, right?

Yeah.

And as you said, much of the time we're not aware. We're not aware of of the impact of our, of our words, of our actions. And so that's the challenge, is being— when we are— when someone, as you said, has the courage to muster up, you know, their courage to say, actually, what you said kind of crossed the line for me.

Mm-hmm.

Then how— then we have a choice about how we're going to respond. And for most of us, the response that we'll have is Defensiveness. Well, yeah, I didn't mean that. That's not what I meant. What I meant was this. When I said, you know, you look prettier when you smile, I meant, you know, I was trying to give you a compliment. And that's one that, you know, that the women will often complain of, is being told to smile.

Hmm.

And, you know, for some women that can feel patronizing, condescending, you know. I'll smile if I feel like smiling.

Yeah.

So it's about when you're being accused of committing some kind of microaggression or something that feels offensive to someone else, there's a real opportunity there for learning. And again, it's that moment of pausing before I react with my defense to say, well, this is what I actually meant. Instead to focus on what was the impact on the other person. And that's a really important concept in, in just talking about this kind of behavior generally when we're talking about microaggressions and we're talking about more extreme examples of discrimination, is what's the separation between the intent and the impact. And in the case of microaggressions, the intent may have been positive or it may have been neutral or there may have been, you know, very little intent at all. But the impact is what matters. The impact is that actually crossed the line for somebody else and they have a lived experience that I don't understand. And so if I want to learn from this moment, then it's time for me to listen.

Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Again, this idea of really dropping your own ego.

Yes.

It's not about you. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

It's not about you. It's about how the other person is feeling.

Yes.

So speaking of that, so someone says to me, oh, you'd be a lot prettier if you smiled. And you're like, okay. And I'm saying here what every listener is thinking right now, which is, okay, someone just said that to me and I'm clenching my fist right now because it's like, oh, my body's just clenching up. At the same time, I have a relationship with this person professionally or whatever, and I know Deep down, probably it's unintentional. They're just trying to say cheer up in a weird way. Is there a way that I can respond to this without shaming the other person, basically?

Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I'll say is this. Sometimes we just are so taken aback by something that happens in the moment that we can't respond. We're tongue-tied. We can't think of it. What I always advise people That's okay. You know, first of all, you don't have to respond. You don't owe it to anybody to educate them and enlighten them. And also, if you choose to respond, you can do it in the moment, you can do it later on after you've had time to think about it. But one thing I would suggest to start it is to pause and take a moment, and then to clarify.

Mm-hmm.

So to say, you know, can I just Can you help me understand what you meant by that? Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you said I must be— I'm probably good at math because I'm Asian, right? What did you mean by that? What do you know about Asian people and math? And so to clarify, and you're giving— in that moment, you're giving somebody an opportunity to clarify and also to examine To hear, first of all, back, you know, what they actually said, and maybe have a moment to realize, oh, you know what, that didn't actually come out the way I meant, or now that I hear it reflected back to me, that's like, that's a bit uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, first of all, to clarify, and then to resist the urge to blame. And so this is a moment to actually You know, in that pause to say, okay, that really made me feel uncomfortable, but I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt in this moment, and I'm going to assume that maybe there wasn't any negative intent there. And the way we can communicate that is in language like, you may not realize this, or, this probably wasn't your intent.

Mm-hmm.

But when you said this, and then to share the impact— and this is really important because for most of us, we go through much of our lives without a lot of awareness about what the impact of our words and behavior are on other people. You know, sometimes it's obvious and sometimes it's not. And so, so it's really important to share the impact with somebody else of how that made me feel, how that landed. So, you know, this probably wasn't your intent, but that comment made me feel uncomfortable. Or, it might surprise you to hear this, but I hear that kind of thing all the time, and I really don't like that. It sounds like a stereotype that I am not comfortable with, and I, you know, I actually object to.

Yeah.

And so it's not going to be a comfortable conversation, but it doesn't have to be a painful conversation and it doesn't have to be a conflict. And I think that's really important for people to realize is that when we are dealing with addressing somebody else's difficult behavior, people often say, well, I can't— I'm not going to say that. Especially if it's somebody, I think as you said earlier, that's in a position of authority or— or may have some influence over my career. I'm afraid to do that. Well, I'm afraid to say this. And it's important to really examine that and to ask ourselves, well, am I really feeling afraid right now or am I just feeling uncomfortable? Because there's a big difference, right?

Yeah.

And discomfort is something that we can push through even if We may not like it. It's not, it's, you know, it's not comfortable, but, but we can, we can do it. And there's not actually any real danger here. Now, of course, that's assuming there isn't any real danger, right?

Yeah.

If there's a really significant power imbalance, this is somebody who is bullying us, or there's a situation of harassment, then that's different. That's different. But if we're talking about something that is relatively minor and there is a reasonable amount of trust between us, Then what we're talking about is an uncomfortable moment, but it's not a— it's not a painful— it doesn't have to be a painful moment. And those kinds of crossing those moments of discomfort can actually really profoundly build relationships if we—

huge.

Yeah, if we have the courage to undertake those kind of conversations.

Sarah, I'm gonna pause you here because this is— there's a lot of good stuff in here, so I want to Number one, what stands out for me is, in our mindset about giving feedback to someone like this, is take the pause and change your mindset that this is— it doesn't have to be about conflict. Your emotions have been heightened.

Yeah.

So maybe that's why you're thinking this is going to be about conflict. But it's getting comfortable with the discomfort. In other words, it's also Looking at the temperature of the emotions in that conversation, it's not a 10.

Yeah, exactly.

You might be at a 9, but the other person's at a 0, basically. Yeah, yeah.

That's a nice way of putting it.

They're like, they just threw it away, right? Oh, you must be good at math. Yeah, exactly.

They threw it away.

Threw it away. They didn't even think twice about it. So when you approach them, they're not at a 9.

No.

You know? So—

That's right.

Right off the bat, that helps lower your temperature. Go, okay, well, this person is not getting ready for conflict. Their body's not tense like I am right now.

That's nice.

Yeah. And then, well, you said it. I'm just paraphrasing.

Okay. Nice job. Made me sound smarter.

So this is huge. This is really huge because if we want to be able to To really have that trust with another person, it's like this, is to get comfortable. It's part of resilience, which is, what do you see coming out of this on the other side? If I'm bouncing back from this, if I'm going to have not a challenging conversation, but maybe an uncomfortable conversation, it's temporary. And that's the resilience part of it.

Mm-hmm.

The payoff is, well, this person is more aware. There's more trust between us. We can be more open. And maybe this leads to more open conversations down the path.

That's right. That's right. And it's kind of like building a muscle. You practice doing it. It gets easier. And just linking back to that idea of resilience. So we can build our own resilience and we can build that capacity for handling discomfort. But if we don't— if we can't muster the courage to enter into those conversations ever, then they're going to continue to be really, really daunting. And so, you know, the more we do them, the easier it gets. And, you know, as we were just saying, that they can really build relationship and they can build trust. assuming that there is a certain amount of trust there to start with. We also have to go in with the expectation that it may not go well. They may not see what we're trying to communicate.

Yeah.

We may have to let it go. What I always tell people is, as I said earlier, you don't have to do this. It's not your responsibility, especially if you're somebody who is receiving a particular kind of microaggression on a daily basis. You just might feel like, I don't really I don't really feel like educating everybody out there in the world. But, you know, we choose our moments and we choose what kinds of interactions we want to have with other people and what kind of world we want to live in and what kind of engagements we want to have with other people. So yeah, it's a good point.

Good point, because also it may not be that immediate win also. Maybe if you do decide to speak to them, it may not be that immediate win, but this person, you know, might At 3 AM, I go, oh my God, I was a jerk. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That can happen. We have just a few minutes left. What I want to do is maybe— and maybe this is a later topic because we have about 3 minutes left. Can we talk in about 2 minutes, do you think we could talk about the fact that creativity is going to be so important for the next decade and part of being creative is that we have to be much more receptive Now, this is a big matzo ball. This is a big one. Sounds like it. Yeah. Is there a thought around that that you can maybe tell us in a minute or two? Sure.

About creativity?

Well, about the fact that we need to embrace diversity if we want to be more creative and not just stick to the same old, same old people that we go to. Sure.

Yeah. I think that there's a lot of research now about what's often referred to as the business case for diversity, which is that The more kinds of diversity that we have in organizations, the more opportunities there are for for what's referred to as diversity of thought. Meaning, if we have the same kind of people in the room who have the same similar kinds of life experience, they're going to tend to have the same kind of ideas. And once we start to have different people of different genders, cultural backgrounds, age, you know, the many different aspects of identity, you start to have different. points of view, worldview, and that leads to creativity, that leads to greater innovation, that leads to— it's a whole range of different ways of looking at things and ways of doing things. Now, that said, while the idea of diversity of thought is really— it's been a real kind of buzz concept out there for some time now. What isn't always acknowledged is that diversity has its challenges, because when we're all thinking differently and we all communicate differently, by the way, that it makes things— it can make things more challenging. It makes things— it can mean challenges in how we work together and how we, you know, create together, etc. So, but it It's worth it. The fact is that we are diverse. We have diverse workforces already. Once we have— the diversity is there, the next step is to create inclusion so that that innovation and creativity can really thrive.

Well, I like this. This is a great way to look at diversity, Sarah, which is that diverse— not look at diversity, but look at that everybody's coming with different life experiences. That's really what diversity is, different cultures, different perspectives, different choices. Sarah, thank you so much. Where can we find out more about Sarah Neville?

Well, you can find me on LinkedIn. Certainly, you can find me on Facebook. You can also go to our website, which is openlinecommunications.com, and send us a note.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. This is a conversation to be continued. Sarah, thank you so much for talking about diversity, microaggression, and presentation skills. Welcome. Thank you everyone, listeners, for listening to TFR: This Feels Right. If you have any thoughts or comments, please reach out to me at joelsilverstone.com or reach out to me on LinkedIn. We will see you next week, and thank you so much for listening to TFR: This Feels Right.

Thank you for tuning in to TFR. This feels right. Please join host Joel Silverstone for another edition next Friday morning at 7 AM Pacific time and 10 AM Eastern time on the Voice America Business Channel. We'll talk again soon.

Thank you.