Leadership with Emotional Intelligence Feels Right

Have you ever wanted to influence others to shift their behaviors, ideas, or actions without playing power trip games? If so, listen for the next hour. Welcome to TFR, This Feels Right, with your host, Joel Silverstone. You'll learn the tools and concepts to influence others with everyone involved maintaining their respect and understanding so it doesn't seem like it's all one way. Now, here is Joel Silverstone.

Hello everybody and welcome to TFR, This Feels Right. Before we jump in, let's say hi to our first guest, Shaquille Barmal. Shaquille, how are you feeling today?

Joel, I'm feeling fantastic. It's a beautiful day here in Ottawa and I am ready for a fantastic conversation with you.

Terrific. Lovely. Well, we're freezing here. And yes, I am your host, Joel Silverstone. And for over 20 years, I have been helping people in business and sometimes in life learn to be more influential by using their communication skills. Influential really means being able to speak to the emotions and logic to get others engaged. Our focus in the show will be about the emotions. That's our first reaction, our gut instinct. That's the point where we ask ourselves, does this feel right? Well, ladies and gentlemen, you're in the right place if you want to learn from leaders, coaches, speakers. They're going to be sharing their real-world business examples and perspectives on how they are able to influence behaviors, ideas, actions, and Our first guest, as we just heard him say just a few seconds ago, Shaquille Barmal. Shaquille is the COO, which is Chief Operating Officer, of Aga Khan Foundation Canada. He's also the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic. He's a speaker, an executive coach, a friend for over 10 years, and also has started a very interesting series of weekly blogs about nostalgia. It's great that we have a leader here because this is our theme for the show today. is going to be about emotional intelligence and leadership. So welcome, Shakil.

Thank you very much.

So let's jump in if you're ready. And I'd love to—

good.

I'd love to learn a little bit more about what your perspective is on emotional intelligence and leadership. And first, before we go there, maybe because emotional intelligence, as you know, and I'm sure you've heard it many times, it's kind of something that's just sort of thrown around. What's your version of emotional intelligence?

Well, yeah, my version of emotional intelligence really comes down to the idea that in any kind of interaction or relationship, it's really, really important to show genuine interest and caring for what someone is feeling, what they're going through, and understanding what's important to them in their life, in that moment, whether it's career, family, doing social good, their education, their brand. Understanding that first, and then everything you say, do, offer, ask should be centered on that understanding. To me, that's emotional intelligence.

That's a brilliant definition. And, you know, having known you for a few years, I think that really ties in with who you are and why you get so many people engaged is that you are one of those people that is genuinely curious.

Yeah, I mean, that's what keeps me going from day to day, just questions and satisfying my curiosity, absolutely.

All right. Let's talk about leadership right now. This is something that you— and we'll come to the blogs in a few minutes because obviously this is something that you have learned through time on how to have that curiosity and how to be interested. How can others develop this ability to be emotionally intelligent or really even just to start with being curious and drop their agenda?

Yeah, I mean, it really does come down to being human and being authentic, right? You know, as we live our lives, you know, we start as children just being genuinely curious about all the things around us and the impact we can have on the world by doing things. And we start out curious, but then depending on your path in the world, sometimes that curiosity gets kind of taken away from us, whether it's through life experience, through our reactions to failure and mistakes, through individuals that come into our life, that gets taken away from us sometimes. So it's really about being self-aware of that and getting back to understanding what it felt like to be a kid and just be genuinely interested and curious to what's happening around us.

You know what? That's so true because kids— well, Not so much these days. They're not so curious because they just say, Hey Google, which we didn't grow up with. Going back to the self-awareness, and you talked about reaction and failures, I think that's where maybe we lose perspective on our self-awareness. That's sort of what I like to say is the TSN turning point, how we deal with those reactions and failures. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, when you think about it from a perspective of emotional intelligence, I feel like there's 2 opposing forces that if we can figure out how to lean into both of those forces, we'll all be much more emotionally intelligent. And first of all, it's meeting the other person where they are.

Mm-hmm.

Getting out of our own heads and trying to put ourselves in their heads, or as we say, put ourselves in their shoes. But then the other side is we actually have to be in our own heads a little bit because we have to be self-aware to what's happening in the moment and how we're reacting in the moment. And my CEO had this really excellent analogy that stuck with me. And it's this idea of when you think of, let's say, a hockey player, right?

Mm-hmm.

The best hockey players, Bobby Orr, for example, legendary hockey player, had this ability to be playing in the game on the ice, in the moment while at the same time having the ability to step into the stands and watch what's happening in the field of play.

Right.

And for me, it's about that ability to be in the moment but also have the ability to step out. And when there's little mistakes or little failures or little things that happen in our interaction, the ability either in the moment or maybe even shortly thereafter to see what happened there. What did I do? What could I have done differently? And just embracing each failure or mistake as an opportunity to get better.

I think you nailed it on a few things. Just starting with what you just ended with, with that self-aware, that trigger point, which is, okay, this is actually an opportunity to ask myself, instead of feeling sorry for myself, I could say, well, what could I have done better? What could I have done differently?

Absolutely.

And I think that's sort of the next piece of emotional intelligence is that how do I now manage my emotions? And then the other piece, and you could tell we're doing this from Canada here 'cause we brought up hockey as an example. They say that about athletes, the really good ones. But I think even if you really have a heightened emotional intelligence, it's the same idea, which is that you're able to see things in slow motion.

Right.

Your example about seeing it from the stands is where you could see the conversation unfolding or you could feel—

Yes.

You could feel this doesn't feel right for yourself, that something is being triggered in you and that's that awareness. It happens in slow motion. not react, but you're able to respond, I guess.

I, you know, I think what you just said is so powerful. You know, so many of us, me included, right? Only human, is that you have this instinct sometimes when you're feeling a negative emotion to kind of try to bury it away and get through the moment, when really the right answer is to actually lean into it, to embrace it, to say to the person on the other side of the table that I'm having difficulty with what's happening right now, or I'm feeling this or that, it creates such an opportunity for a human connection that changes the conversation. And I think we all have to do a better job of just embracing those moments, those moments of anxiety or anguish or stress, and just lean into it a little bit more authentically.

I couldn't agree with you more, Shaquille.

Hopefully I'm not creating that emotion for you right now.

No, it's all good. You know what? Which is another thing I've noticed about you as well, why you're such a powerful leader and such a good coach and command the room, is your ability to show vulnerability, to really, for lack of a better word, I guess, wear your heart on your sleeve, that you're really able to feel comfortable in your own skin and be able to actually share what's on your mind, how you're feeling, in a way that is not compromising your leadership. What do you think?

Yeah, well, you know, Joel, I don't know any other way. I don't know any other way. You know, some other people have told me that throughout my life and career. And in some cases, people have kind of raised it as a weakness. And the truth of the matter is, I couldn't do it any other way. I couldn't if I tried. I mean, I just go through this life interacting with people whether it be the person on the street or the people in my personal relationship with the people I work with. And I think I would miss out on so much of life if we weren't just real with each other. Um, and so that's, that's my view.

Okay, well, let's, let's get real here and let's talk about your, your blog, uh, which is all about nostalgia, which is, you know, as you said, you couldn't be any other way. And, um, how did you decide that you're going to start this blog and the blogs were going to be about I guess, for lack of a better word, making you the person that you are?

Well, yeah, that's actually a really interesting way to put it. It was a bit of a discovery process, Joel. You know, I've been blessed my entire life with a really, really powerful long-term memory. My partner will tell you that my short-term memory is awful, but my long-term memory is really good. And it would make for great party conversations, right? Be able to tell You know, a friend who I'm good friends with for years, hey, you know what, this particular day 25 years ago, do you remember this thing? And it would be just a lot of fun. And so one day I was reflecting, is what if I could take all that memory and all those experiences and actually put it to the service of learning?

Mm-hmm.

And a bit of an application to self-awareness, really. What if I could, rather than make this a great party trick, what if I could put it in the service of learning? And one morning after my, um, my, uh, 50th birthday, just turned 50, I—

Congratulations.

I, I thank you. I typed a little bit of a log, uh, blog on LinkedIn, not really a blog, just really a post where I told the story of a memory from my 18th birthday. And it was related to a work experience and, and my dad. And I was overwhelmed. I mean, I had like 35,000 views and comments and sharing of people giving me their stories. Um, you know, within a week I had stories from people I'd worked with years ago, stories from strangers. It was really quite incredible. And I thought, man, I think everybody's got these memories. And what if I could create a community or a movement of people that are willing to grow and learn and express themselves? So I, I decided that I was going to go through this learning journey. I started listening to podcasts and reading about blogging. And I decided, let me do it. Let me start taking the moments in my life and telling stories about them as a way for me to discover what those experiences have done to me from both my leadership perspective, my interpersonal interactions, but also embracing the mistakes and the embarrassments in my life to see where do they come from. And it's been honestly a joy to write and share and even more of a joy to get the reactions I've been getting from people in my life, but also strangers.

Yeah, well, I heard 35,000 views, so that's quite impressive for the first blog. And again, goes back to the likability of that people want to talk, as you said, about their memories and their experiences and they can relate to it.

Yeah, absolutely. People are telling me, this made me think of a time in my life. And that brings me no greater— there's no greater joy than to know that something I put in words has made somebody else think about their own life experience.

I love it.

Well, 'cause you talk about long-term memory and what you're doing here is you're forcing us to trigger our memories and sort of take an almost emotional intelligence inventory of who we are as people. What are our values and beliefs? Like when I read your most recent one, about how your family came here with pretty much nothing and all the struggles your family went through, and it was all about faith and resilience and perseverance, I actually paused and started to think about, you know, so maybe that's where I got some of this, some of these skills from watching my mother and my aunts and my grandparents go through those struggles.

Yeah, I'm sure it is. And, you know, the thing that it made me realize as I'm doing this, really impactful for us when we have kids, is that If I think about all these lessons, they didn't come from things that my parents told me.

Right.

They came from these observations I've had about how they interact and deal with things. I think now reflecting on my children, how many times I've gotten on a soapbox and lectured or told them things and realize now that those things aren't the things that'll stick with them. It's the things they saw me do and the things they saw me say to other people that will actually stick.

Which is going back to leadership is so important that we see so many leaders who talk about emotional intelligence or talk about being able to influence, so to speak, but they're not buying into it themselves. What have you— because you've coached a lot of people and you've worked with a lot of people— what's your experience in watching other leaders sort of juggle this?

You know, it's interesting. It's— I mean, it— I think it all starts with how you look at leadership. Um, you know, some people look at leadership and say, you know, I'm in this leadership role because I've got to get something done. I've got, you know, I've earned it and I've got to achieve something and I've been given this mission to do this.

Hmm.

I, I look at leadership, and a lot of people I, I work with look at leadership a little differently. To me, leadership is the ultimate form of service. If you're put in a leadership role, whether you're appointed, elected, you're recruited or hired or promoted, I believe you're in a position of leadership because you're meant to serve either an organization, a team, individual people, a cause. And so if you're leading people as a service, you have a responsibility to be connected to what matters to those people. People are made up, they're a bundle of emotions and motivations and ambitions and experiences. If you're in a leadership role to serve others, you have to develop the skills to be able to flex and meet those people where they are, because people aren't going to change to meet your needs.

Yeah.

You have to evolve and flex to help them be the best people they can be. And so it really comes down to how you view the role of a leader.

I think you nailed it on a few levels there. One, emotional intelligence is about realizing what's bugging you, what your triggers are, and just put it on hold for a few seconds here so you can be of service to the other person. But also, if we want to be able to influence someone as a leader, it's drop your ego and be really open to what are the concerns of the other person. How can you get what you want but also making sure that the other person is also Uh, feeling respected and not manipulated.

Absolutely. I mean, ultimately, I mean, Joel, I know you know this, is that there's no way you can make any human being do it, do anything they don't want to do, right?

Um, well, you can't, you can't grudgingly.

Sure, grudgingly. But I mean, long— sure, short term, right?

Yeah, sure.

You can make any—

you can do—

make people do things they don't want to do, but long term, you can't begrudgingly. So I mean, it really does come down to Really understanding what matters to them and then trying to structure what it is you need to get done in terms of how you can help them achieve what they're trying to achieve. And I think it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it works more times than not. So that's, that's, I think, the approach is have to meet people where they are and have to truly understand what matters to them.

Yeah, it's so important, but we're so focused, like you said before, about the pressures we're putting on ourselves, whether it be a leader or just in general in life, that we're missing the clues and cues that people are giving us. We're not really genuinely listening.

Yeah, you know, I remember I read a great book. Most people have heard of this gentleman, Stephen Covey. In my 20s, I read this book, and one part that really resonated with me is how many times in a conversation when we're talking to somebody do we end up giving an autobiographical response, right? This idea that we don't respond based on what we're hearing from them, but instead we respond based on our own story that we're telling ourselves. And resisting that temptation to respond from our perspective, but responding from what we're hearing come from the other person—

Yeah.

Is truly the power. It's really where the power is. Reflecting honestly and authentically what we're seeing and hearing And feeling from them.

Uh, you know, and so this is, this is a good segue. We're going to take a, what I like to call our, uh, improv or improve your communication skills, uh, technique. We're gonna do a little improv exercise, Shakil, if you're open to it.

Okay.

We'll take our little 60-second break here. We're going to do this. Um, I'd like to play a little game here. It's called Last Letter, First Letter.

Okay.

So what's going to happen is I'm going to make a statement such as, Canada is a big country. You have to listen to the whole thing and take the last letter that I just said. So country would be Y, and then you have to start your next sentence without changing the flow of the story with that letter.

Oh, this sounds like fun.

Yeah. So it goes like, you know, Canada is a big country.

Y.

You know, yes, it is. S. Saskatchewan is a part of it. T. Totally. Excellent.

All right, are you game? I'm game, let's do it.

Okay, uh, so I'll, I'll give us the, the first sentence. You ready?

Sure.

Okay. Hockey is a big part of Canada.

Hockey is a big part of Canada and it forms The fabric of so much social interaction in our communities.

Yes, that is so true. People love to get togethers.

Regardless of where they're from, how they've been brought up, what their family life is like, it's a powerful way to share and discover each other.

Boom! Done.

Fun.

That was great. Oh my God, I want to keep playing, Joel.

Absolutely. Uh, how— so how, how did you, how did you feel?

That was, that was really fun. And I just, it, you know, the idea of a little bit of nervousness because I didn't know if I'd be ready, but then just as you kind of lean into that nervousness, as I talked about, and just be open and ready, like, you know, it really allowed us, you and I, to have a great conversation about What a great country we live in, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Really, we talked about listening. We have an audience listening to us, so the stakes are even higher because they know if we're going to cheat here, if we're going to fake it or not. It's the same thing, I think, when leaders have to be able to realize that when they're speaking to one person or to a group of people, that they're really Yeah, yeah, that's great.

That was really great insight, Joel. Thank you.

So we have probably about 4 minutes left. So I just want to talk about the Aga Khan Foundation of Canada. And if you could tell us a little bit about what's— we know Aga Khan, its mission is about fighting global poverty. But maybe tell us a little bit more about it or what events are coming up. And then I'd love to ask you, where can we find out more about Shakil Barmal?

Oh, great, sure. So yeah, Aga Khan Foundation Canada, there's a lot you can find out on the internet, akfc.ca, but one of my favorite things about this organization and the work that we do to improve quality of life in some of the most difficult parts of the world, in Asia and Africa, is the way we engage and mobilize, like, Canadians here, right here at home. You know, I have the joy and pleasure of working with Thousands of volunteers, some of them very senior volunteer leaders, corporate leaders, and the common thread through all these human beings is the care about the world beyond themselves. And they recognize and are embracing with courage the role we can all play in improving quality of life for for everybody in the world, here at home as well as in the most difficult parts of the world. And so it makes me really proud to be a Canadian and. be associated with people like this. The next thing that's happening, actually this weekend, we're welcoming our senior volunteer leaders that run our World Partnership Walk campaign that kicks off in the spring of every year in March.

Okay.

And the campaign kicks off next March, but this is the kickoff event for the planning of next year's campaign. So we'll have, you know, 20 volunteer leaders here this weekend looking to sharpen our leadership skills, Looking to plan and improve from what happened last year. And it's one of my favorite weekends of the year. So that's what's happening next.

Now, you said World Partnership Walk, right? So this is happening just about everywhere?

Yeah, well, it happens in 10 cities across the country. It's been happening for— this will be the 30— this is the 35th year we just finished, actually. So next year will be 36. And it started by a small group of women who just wanted to give back to the countries they came from. They started this volunteer movement, and lo and behold, you know, it's become this movement that involves 40,000 Canadians across the country, completely volunteer-driven. They donate, they raise awareness and funds for the role that Canada and Canadians play in making the world a better place. So worldpartnershipwalk.com.

Okay.

If you want to check it out. And we're always open and welcome to new organizations, workplaces, schools to get involved.

Great. And obviously, if anybody also wants to volunteer.

Absolutely. Always looking for great volunteers.

Lovely. All right. Now, Shakil, I mean, we have, again, just a few minutes left. So I want to talk about where to find you and maybe talk a little— some more about Ocean Blue Strategic. You're the founder of this. Can you tell us a little bit more about this? This new venture that you've started.

Yeah, yeah, no, pleasure, uh, pleasure to. So I've been, uh, been here at Dagkan Foundation, uh, for almost 7 years now, and, and, uh, through, uh, some self-discovery, self-awareness, I'm planning a bit of a different journey with some next steps. And I've launched Ocean Blue Strategic, um, as a coaching leadership development, uh, firm. You know, the naming is interesting because I don't know about you, Joel, but Every time in my life I found myself in front of a body of water, I feel in so perfect alignment with myself and hopes and aspirations and, and what I want to accomplish in this world. So I decided to call the company Ocean Blue. And the idea of this company is I want to work with people that are driven and have a desire to impact the people in the world around them.

Mm-hmm.

And it's such a complex time in the world right now. It's volatile, uncertain, complex, but yet really good human beings still want to make a difference. And so I'm— my focus is going to be on helping individuals be the best leaders they can be, both in their work, in their organizations, but also in their lives, to create as much impact as possible on the people around them. And so that's the focus of Ocean Blue Strategic. It'll be a coaching development company. And for now, you can find me at shaquillebarmal.com. And then at some point, I will launch oceanbluestrategic.com as a website. But for now, you can find me at shaquillebarmal.com.

And that's where we can sign up also to get these wonderful blogs about nostalgia and really trigger those memories and that emotional intelligence for us.

Yeah, please do. And the more the merrier, the more people share, the better. I mean, this is starting out about me sharing some of my stories, but my real hope is that I just awaken a lot more people to share their own stories. I think that'll make us all so much better to just connect with each other.

Well, Shaquille, I just want to let you know this felt right. So thank you so much.

It felt right to me too, Joel. Nothing is random, Joel. I think we've been meaning to have this conversation probably since we first met, and I'm really honored to have shared this time with you. Thank you so much.

And we're not in an airplane having it, so that's even better. Exactly.

Yeah.

Well, Shaquille, you know what? I think a great way to tie all this together is what you have on your website for Ocean Blue Strategic is when you say, A drop creates a ripple, and a ripple can change everything. I think that's the big piece here about emotional intelligence and leadership is really being present in that moment because that small moment, if you miss it, the whole conversation has gone the other way.

If you don't miss it and you embrace it, you can change everything.

Swish!

All right, Shaquille. Well, thank you so much. We are now going to go to our commercial break.

Thanks a lot, Joel. Have a great day.

Thank you.

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Welcome back to TFR, This Feels Right. We've got our second guest when we're speaking about emotional intelligence and leadership. But before we jump in, let's just say hi to Jamel Lindo. Jamel, how are you feeling today?

I am doing fantastic. Thank you so much for having me on.

Absolutely. It is our delight. Thank you for joining us. Once again, I'm your host, Joel Silverstone. For over 20 years, I have been helping people in business and sometimes in life to be more influential, especially using their communication skills. Today's show is emotional intelligence and leadership. And we've got an expert with us today. Jamel is the emotional intelligence leader. He's a coach. He's a trainer. He's a speaker. He's also the founder of Paradigm People Development. He's also a masterful coach and speaks and writes a lot about and part of the Forbes Coaches Council. So Jamel, this is great to have an emotional intelligence expert. We had a great conversation with Shakil in our first half. from his version. But Jamel, here's my question for you. What is your version of emotional intelligence?

It's really interesting that you asked that because depending on who you ask, you'll get different renditions and versions of what emotional intelligence is, and there are even different models to look at it through.

Yeah.

So let's, let's just make sure that we're clear. This is, this is my version and my interpretation of what works for me and the people that I work with. So I normally just I always describe emotional intelligence as your ability to use and manage emotions purposefully, yours and others. And the reason why that's a really significant statement is because in all that we do, we've all had the experience where emotions can trip us up. They can get in the way and they can prevent us from achieving our goals as opposed to helping us to achieve our goals. So emotional intelligence is about how do you get ahead of them, how do you be smart about emotional experiences, yours and others, so that they can work for you instead of against you. Yeah.

So tell me a bit more about that. Like, how did— like, you know, so for, for someone who, you know, is trying to figure this out and go, okay, well, how, how do I know? How am I going to be smart about this? What does that mean exactly?

Yeah. Well, the first step is self-awareness. So it's an ability to actually recognize what emotions you're feeling at any given moment and how they're playing their part in your success. So are they working for you or are they working against you? So an example of that could be you're about to deliver a speech and you're moments away from stepping on stage. And you and I, we know, we've both been there, you know, the nerves set in.

Yeah.

And so are you able to manage that feeling, that emotion of being nervous? Are you able to find a way to allow that to work for you instead of work against you so that when you get up on that stage, you can give your best performance? You can communicate clearly. You can have people walk away feeling like they're impacted. And of course, the alternative to that is that you step up on stage, you know, you draw a blank. You don't know what to say. You stumble on your words. It's that whole lack of confidence piece. So that's one example of how it can apply. But really, if you think about leadership, if you think about sales, if you think about anything that involves people, there is an infinite number of ways that it can apply.

And you know, Joel, I'm going to quote you from your speech that you had at Disrupt HR, which was that self-awareness is the gateway.

Absolutely.

And I think that's It's got to start there because it doesn't matter so much what you're noticing in other people if you can't manage your own emotions. As you said, getting up on stage is a great example because so many people have a fear of public speaking. If you're not even aware of what it is you're nervous about and you're just dismissing it, then yeah, you probably will go up and draw a blank because you're not— Taking that pause to go, why am I nervous and how am I going to make this work for me?

And that's exactly it, right? And a big part of that is because we don't have a conversation culturally in the mainstream around emotions. So emotions are not something that we understand. Most people are not in a space where they understand, you know, how they're— how they feel, how to interpret it, how to decipher it, how to make it work for them. And so we have moments where we feel nervous where We try to brush it under the rug or we try to ignore it.

Yeah.

We have moments where emotions are getting in the way of our success and we do our best to not address it head on, usually because we just don't know how. A big part of it is giving people the tools so that they can become more self-aware. Then once you know what it is that you're feeling, then you can manage it. But if you can't see it, you can't manage it. That's where it can get the best of you.

Yeah, absolutely. I like the difference between IQ versus EQ is that this is something— correct me if I'm wrong— this is something that you can actually work on. You can actually build your EQ where you can't really do much more about your IQ. Is that correct?

Yeah, absolutely. There's a few things to really keep in mind there. The first thing is that when people think about Emotional intelligence or EQ, they think that it's one particular skill.

Yeah.

When the reality is, it's actually an array of different skills that all tie into your emotionality. So things like optimism, that's a part of emotional intelligence. Confidence, your assertiveness, so your ability to be able to speak up and say what matters and what's important. That's important in, in sales or in leadership if you have to deliver difficult feedback. Your ability to make decisions when stress is involved, to solve problems when stress is involved, to manage relationships, to be empathetic. All of these things tie into emotional intelligence. That's why I also fundamentally refer to it as a fundamental people skill. Daniel Goleman calls it the fundamental leadership skill. And so EQ is the scientific measure of emotional intelligence and looks at Where you rate or where you stand across all of these sub-competencies.

Let's transition this into the leadership. As you said, it's a fundamental leadership skill. Why do leaders need to have this?

Well, because leaders are essentially there to influence people. Fundamentally, if you're not influencing people, then you're Then you're not leading. Of course, the goal is to influence people towards a result, towards a shared or collective goal.

Right.

Now, what we have to understand is that human beings are emotional creatures. We can try to avoid it. We can try to say that it's not true. We can act like it's not there, but it's a fundamental reality of our biology and the way that we're built. We've even had the feeling brain, so the limbic system, Yeah. Longer on the evolutionary scale than we've had the thinking brain. The thinking brain came much later. It's a development process in the brain that is a part. It was built onto, developed onto the feeling brain. That's why feelings can actually override your logic, right? When you get emotionally stimulated, you can say, do things that seemingly just don't make any sense. And so as a leader, if you don't understand emotions, then you don't understand people.

Yeah.

And what we also have to understand is that people are driven by emotion, right? And so it's the action of people that are driven by emotion. It's what we do. And what we do is what creates the result. So again, if we don't understand the emotion within people that's driving the action or non-action sometimes, then we won't really be able to influence that person to drive a specific result. We also won't be able to understand them. We won't be able to get them into a positive space. There's so many things that are cut off from us when we ignore the human element and the emotional element that's involved with leadership, that's inherent to leadership.

No, you're absolutely— I started by saying no, but what I mean is yes, you're absolutely right.

Right.

Even neuroscience proves that humans make decisions based on emotion first, and then they apply the facts afterwards to back it up, to reinforce, to substantiate the decision. It is. We tend to go with our gut instincts. I think as leaders, or even just in general, we always sometimes really work really hard to try to make our point with facts and logic, but if you don't speak to the emotion, then The person's not really listening to you. They're not open to it.

That's exactly it. And it's not about only focusing on emotion and not bringing in a sense of accountability and what we need to accomplish. I believe that in this space, there's a misunderstanding that says that emotional intelligence is just about, you know, being nice and comforting people into a space of non-action when that's not the case. It's just about understanding people. so that you can actually more clearly align to what the goals are, what the objectives are, what the results are. And that comes with holding people accountable.

Mm-hmm.

But what we often do is we skip the emotional part and we go straight to the accountability. And so people don't feel valued. They don't feel cared for. They don't feel that you have their best interest at heart. Now, just real quick, I want to come back to the example there. You had mentioned neuroscience and how they've proven that emotions do drive Mm-hmm. Our actions and our behaviors. There was this interesting study that was done where they looked at people that had significant brain damage in the areas responsible for emotional experience, and so they weren't having any emotional experiences anymore. And what they observed about these people is that they had very, very, very challenging times making very, very, very simple decisions. When I say simple decisions, I mean simple decisions like what should I eat, what should I wear, these kinds of things. And the reason why that was difficult for them is because they did not know how they felt about any particular decision. They could rationalize it in their minds. They could come up with reasons, logic.

Yeah.

But because they couldn't connect it to an emotion, it made the whole decision-making process very confusing for them. That goes to show you just how wired we are to our emotions and how much they drive us.

That's a great example. Without it— we need both, basically. That's the thing. We need the logic and we need the emotions to be able to— my formula for influencing people is if you speak to their emotion and they go, yeah, This feels right, and then you speak to their logic and go, yeah, I think this is right. Then when the two come together, they go, yeah, now I know this is right, because the two have come together.

Yeah, that's exactly it. It's about being able to strike the balance between the two. I feel that, and I see a lot of evidence that suggests that in the leadership world, we are very much imbalanced towards the logic side, and we haven't yet integrated the human element And the emotional side so that we're approaching leadership more holistically instead of just using these very limited tools to help people succeed and to help organizations succeed.

Yeah. It is. It really is limiting. This is what I want to do then. I want to take our little, what I call, improv or improve communication skills break. So Jamel, if you're game, I'd like to try a little improv/communication skills exercise with you.

I am down to play. Let's go.

All right. This is what we're going to do. Let's pretend that we both work in the— that I'm one of the people who work at Paradigm People Development Company. I work with you. We are planning our end-of-the-year party, and let's say there's about 20 people coming. So I'm going to ask you to brainstorm with me some ideas that we could do for the holiday party or end-of-the-year party. And I'm— just so you know, I'm always going to be answering with, yes, but. I love it.

I love it. Okay.

All right, so whenever you're ready.

All right, we should We should go bowling and then we should go dancing with the entire team. I think it would be amazing.

Oh yes, but that's, you know, not everybody feels comfortable or is able to stand or dance. It's putting a lot of people under pressure to do those things.

Okay. Do you feel that maybe we could have a mixed situation where there's a little bit of dancing, a little bit of sitting, a little bit of socializing?

Yes, but then you're really labeling the people who, you know, and then maybe the partner says, why aren't you dancing? And it's putting a— I'm that person. I don't want to— I don't have to feel the pressure I should be getting up and dancing.

Is there a way for us to have it so that people can dance or sit, but then not necessarily feel that pressure?

Yes, but that's That sounds like it's going to take a whole committee to figure that out. All right, so we'll pause right there, Jamel. We're going to do this exact same exercise again, but this time, good news, I'm always going to answer with yes and.

Okay.

So try it again. It never happened. We're going back in time.

Do do do do do do.

We're going back in time. Try it again.

Okay. You know, I think that it would be really cool if we took everybody in the office out. To bowling, and then we all went dancing after.

Yes, and that is so retro to go bowling. I mean, it's gonna bring back so many childhood memories. I think that is so much fun. Do you have any ideas where we could go?

Yeah, there's a bunch of places. There's one downtown, it's one of my favorites. It actually combines both bowling and dancing, so we could stay there, or if we wanna try something new, then there's a little place just up the street where we could all go grab a drink, and they have an amazing dancing floor.

Oh yes, and everybody loves the idea that there's choices there. You could bowl, you could dance, you could just have a drink. Jamel, you're on fire today with these ideas.

Absolutely. All right, pause right there.

All right, so Jamel, how did you feel when you were being yes-butted?

I felt like the flow was being stopped. It was being cut. We weren't able to get into a flow of brainstorming and getting good ideas out there.

Right. And how did it feel with Yes, And?

It feels great. It feels like there's a flow. It feels like there's an energy. It feels like we can get a bunch of ideas out there and explore and hopefully land on something that works. I like the Yes, And guy a lot more than the Yes, But. I was about to call out the Yes, But guy, but it wasn't a part of the exercise, so I let it go.

Fair enough. Absolutely. When we do this exercise, you don't even really even hear the yes, but. It goes back to how you felt. You just feel like someone is putting up a wall against you. When you hear the yes, and, you're not even hearing the yes, and. You're feeling like this person is being collaborative. That's the idea of this yes, and exercise is that being open and not judging someone else and being open to their ideas, to their offers, so to speak. Yes, but I was making you work really hard at coming up with ideas.

Yeah, that's exactly it. What's interesting about that is you can actually have a difference of opinion but still use the word and. If someone shares something with you and you're not in complete agreement, but you'd like to present a different perspective, you can acknowledge them and say, yes, I hear you, and here's something else that we can consider.

Right.

In that way, you could accomplish a very similar thing.

You know what? That is a really good observation because yes, and doesn't mean that you necessarily agree. I think that goes back to our emotional intelligence, which is, this doesn't feel right for me right now, but checking in why it's not feeling right and not fighting it. Would that be accurate then?

Yeah, absolutely.

Let me ask you this. Let's go back to the Influence Formula and talk about emotional intelligence and leadership. You've worked with a lot of teams, not to mention the fact that your background has been in working with leaders in HR and client care. You've done a lot of training, a lot of speaking, a lot of coaching. Any examples where you've You've seen the fall off the rails as far as leaders and their emotional intelligence?

Yeah, there are many examples of that. I do want to point out that it's usually not something that we are conscious of, but it's something that we discover through coaching and training. I'll give you some examples. I did a training session recently for an energy company.

Mm-hmm.

And we went out there, at the beginning of the training session I usually get a feel for how are people defining leadership, what does leadership mean to them. And when you ask these questions, you normally get very, you normally get responses that you've heard before, very common responses. So you hear buzzwords like influence and authenticity and people-centric, and you hear all of these things.

Yeah.

So that's why I always incorporate an experiential part so that we can kind of pull out the experiences and look at what's really happening and look at what we're really doing so that we can become aware, hold ourselves accountable, and then take different actions if we need to. So one exercise is where I get leaders to write down the names of their people, and these are leaders with with smaller teams, so anywhere between 15 to 20. And they have to write down several things. First thing they have to write down is the first name, last name. Hopefully that's easy.

Okay.

The next thing that they have to write down is really brief family situation. So married, not married, girlfriend, brother, sister, whatever, to the best of their ability. The next thing they have to write down is an interest that they have, 1 to 3 interests Or hobbies that that person has. And the next thing that they have to write down, which is one of the most important things, is what that person actually wants. And when I say what that person actually wants, I'm not necessarily just talking about a paycheck, because we know that fundamentally everybody wants a paycheck.

Yeah.

But is that the only thing that they want? Is this role a stepping stone for them into another career? Is it a stepping stone for them into another department? Is it a stepping stone for them to go somewhere else within the company? Are they looking to develop themselves? Are they looking just to make more money and that's literally their only sole driver? Are they interested in leadership, in communications, in marketing? Why are they here beyond the obvious, which is the paycheck?

Right.

And you would be amazed at how many leaders are not able to answer that question. And so then that brings us to the next idea, which is all about trust. Fundamentally, relationships are built on trust. You have it, you can do anything. You don't have it, you can't accomplish anything. And people don't want to work well and hard for people that they don't trust. I came across this definition of trust that I absolutely love, and the definition is, trust is my confidence in your ability to capitalize Hmm. So you gotta kind of run that one back slowly. It's my confidence in your ability to capitalize on my best interest, which means when I'm not around and something happens, will you make the choice, the decision, the call that is in my best interest, whether I'm there, whether I'm not there? How confident am I that that is 100% what will happen? And so that brings us back to, if you don't know me as my leader, you don't know my interests, you don't know my family, you don't know what's driving me within this organization beyond a paycheck or if it's just a paycheck, if you don't know what my best interest is, then how can I trust you to optimize on my best interest?

I'm writing down your quote there because that's gold.

Yeah, absolutely. Right? And so essentially, we get to this place where leaders start to realize that they're not as people-centric as they think. They're not as people-oriented as they think. Because if they were people-oriented, the very first thing that they would do, it would be obvious. Even if someone was never in leadership, but they stepped in and they were people-centric, is they'd find out. What actually drives their people, what motivates them, what it is that they want. And then now you're entering into a relationship to collaborate with that person to help move them towards that goal while also fulfilling and delivering on the business organization organizational goals at the same time.

And Jamal, just, sorry, and I don't mean to be rude. I just want to let you know we just have about 2 minutes left here, so I want to Because you gave us so much in this piece here. I want to let people know where they can look more of this up, where they could find you and learn more about this. I think your 5-minute disrupt speech capitalizes a lot on this. But how can I trust you, I think, is at the heart of this. Trust, as you said, is not just— it's a moment. It's really being—

A journey.

Knowing that you have the other person's best interests. It's not just your own agenda. So, Jamel, where can we learn more about you and learn more about what you bring to this?

Yeah, absolutely. So really simple, just go to my website, jamellindo.com. That's J-A-M-E-L-L-E-L-I-N-D-O.com. On my website, you'll find everything that I do. You'll find testimonials. You can reach out to me if you'd like to have me come out to do training for your leaders, to do coaching for your leaders, to do corporate events, speaking engagements, or even personal one-on-one training and coaching for yourself if you want to become better at what you do through emotional intelligence. And if that's the case, I would highly recommend for any leader, professional entrepreneur, to start with getting your emotional intelligence assessed so that you know where you stand You have a scientifically valid benchmark and you know where you need to develop and where you need to spend the time. Everything is on my website. You can also find my Forbes articles on there. I do have one specific to what to expect if you're going to embark on that emotional intelligence journey. It is also important for you to know that along with emotional intelligence is mindset, understanding your thinking, understanding your thoughts. Just understand that that will be a part of the process. Should be.

Thank you. Thank you, Jamel. Just before we get interrupted by the fade out, thank you so much, Jamel, for being a guest. Everybody got that site to find out more and read up more. I want to thank Shakil and Jamel today. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being a part of the show and really sharing how important trust and being present and really listening is a big part of leadership and emotional intelligence.

Thank you.

Thank you for tuning in to TFR, This Feels Right. Please join host Joel Silverstone for another edition next Friday morning at 7 AM Pacific Time and 10 AM Eastern Time on the Voice America Business Channel. We'll talk again soon.