Motivation Capability with guest Shakeel Bharmal

You're listening to TFR, This Feels Right. Welcome to TFR. I'm Joel Silverstone. We've got a great show for you today. And before we jump in, let's meet our first guest, check in, see how he's feeling. Shakil Barmal. Shakil, how are you feeling today?

I'm both excited and nervous at the same time. Excited to talk to you, but nervous because when I talk to you, we never know what's gonna happen. I'm both excited and nervous.

Well, you know what? This is so good. It ties in with our show about understanding your needs. So you're right off the bat, you're demonstrating that. So thank you, Shakil. TFR, I am Joel Silverstone, and for over 20 years I've been helping people in business and sometimes in life to be more influential using their communication skills without being manipulative. And so what that means is they're able to speak to the logic and more importantly connect to the emotions. So the other person says, yeah, this feels right. Today's show is really interesting and it's gonna be a lot of fun. As Shakil said, we never know what's gonna happen because today's show is called— I'm gonna quote the ABBA song here— Knowing me, knowing you. Aha! There's nothing we can do. That's the show today. Knowing me, knowing you. Aha! There's nothing we can do because in fact there is something we can do and it's called motivation capability. It's understanding what motivates us, what doesn't and why it doesn't, and what we actually can do about it to be more influential using our communication skills and really get what we want and. Also make sure the other person feels respected and understood. So I'm so looking forward to unpacking this with Shaquille. You might remember Shaquille from our first episode, Leadership with Emotional Intelligence, which by the way, Shaquille, is probably one of our more popular shows. So that's awesome.

What an honor. Thank you.

So it's great to have you back here. You might remember that at the time Shaquille was the Chief Operating Officer for the Canadian unit of the Aga Khan Development Network. Now he is the founder of Ocean Blue Strategic. Shakil is a coach. He is a leader. And Ocean Blue Strategic is that. It's a leadership coaching consulting firm. And it's really focusing on improving competency, character, the confidence of leaders, entrepreneurs, and professionals and their teams, really as they're navigating the— Talk about you never know what's going to happen next. Navigating the challenges and opportunities of disruption, what's going on. Also, you can find Shakil, he's also a partner with The Summit Group, which is a global sales transformation firm. And we had Phil Sterling, the CEO of Summit Group, here also on our show. So let's talk now about motivation. First off, let me just check, is this correct, Shakil? Is that, is that who you are?

Is that where you're at? Knowing me knowing you, you know me really well. Thank you. Okay.

Okay. So Shakil, let's talk about motivation capability. Such a, such a big word. You know, give us the, give us the overview of what that is.

Yeah. So, you know, motivation capability, it came along in my life at the perfect time. Since I was in my 20s, I always believed in Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. There's one particular habit which is all around focusing on those things you can control. and not worrying about the things you can't control and living in that center circle of influence. Well, that is great. And it's great if you're talking about that with somebody that already gets it and already understands how to live in the circle of control. But most of us don't. And so the motivation capability, it was a mechanism for moving to action.

Okay.

To understand yourself, get some self-awareness and understand what you can do to move to a place of action and influence. And founded by this great lady, Hele Bundgaard from Copenhagen. She is the founder of the Motivation Factor Institute and she trained me on this methodology and it really does work. It's outstanding.

Yeah. You know, I like what you just said about, you know, Stephen Covey's, you know, 7 Habits and, you know, we want to be proactive but we can't always name what that means to be proactive. And so if I'm understanding correctly, this motivation factor, motivation capability, is being able to name what it is. So can you give it— can you sort of walk us through that?

But you think of it like a hierarchy of motivation. Think of a pyramid. At the base of the pyramid is a deep understanding of what drains your energy and what gives you energy, what enhances your energy. And when you know what drains your energy, you can start understanding what are the reasons behind it. So understand your energy and energy management. The next is understand your needs. What are your deep needs that need to get satisfied? And so what happens in life is usually when we're feeling at our lowest energy, our energy is drained. It's often because our deepest needs are not being satisfied.

Right.

And when that's in conflict, That's when we have trouble being motivated. And so motivation capability is the ability to hone in on your energy drainers and your needs, to know yourself really well, to then recognize that you can do something about both that, your energy drainer and your needs. So that is what you describe as motivation capability, the ability to recognize that and pull yourself out.

Right. And this is good because it's recognizing it. And I think the key word here is to, is then to name it because We can get lost in, oh, my energy drainer is my kids, my spouse, errands, my colleague at work.

Yeah. Would it help if I give you an example, Joel? Yes.

Yes, please.

So, so I'll just put myself in there. So when I was going through this process, one of the things I identified was my biggest energy drainer was being around negative people.

Okay.

Right. When I was around negative people, I would just feel awful. And I wouldn't want to be in that environment or circumstance anymore. But sometimes we have to be with negative people. We have to work with everybody, right? So then I connect the dots between that, uh, being with negative people and the behavior I dislike most in others is people that blame other situations or people for their issues, right?

Uh-huh.

So now I know I don't like being with negative people and I know I don't like being with people that are blaming others rather than taking ownership.

Right.

So if I step back and reflect on that, that is stemming from a deep need that I have for personal power, for personal influence. I have a deep need to feel like I can change or influence a situation for the better.

Okay.

So when I experience those behaviors, it's because my need is being violated. They're touching on a very sensitive part of me. And as soon as I recognize that, I can now go to a different place and say, hang on a second, that's me, right? This is my need for personal power and influence. They may not have that same need. And so then I have a choice to make. I can decide that I can engage with them, but be aware that, that they're not in that place yet, which will allow me to cope and build my motivation up. Or I can decide, hmm, I don't want to be in circumstances with people like that. And I can choose to exit or not spend as much time in those situations. Either way, the choice is mine. And that's the point. When you recognize the choice is yours and you know that there's things you can do, all of a sudden your motivation is lifted because you feel like you have the ability to control. That's how it works.

I, I, you know, good, because this is, this is the, the outside things that allow, allow us to be, allow, we allow ourselves to be affected by it. And what you're saying is, Hang on, stop the presses. You actually can go into, you know, someone is bothering you and you don't know why they're bothering you, but you can actually go in when you start naming what it is that bothers you about that person. And then you could be the adult in this relationship, which is go, okay, you know, serenity now. I'm gonna let it go. Either I'm gonna break this relationship or I'm gonna understand they're not there yet.

Yes. Absolutely. Because you can't change the other person. We talked about this last time we talked, because you can't change the other person. No, you can only change your reaction and your action to the other person. That's all you have.

And that's what the drainer is. The drainer is when you're true, when you spend all of your time waiting for that person to read your mind. Why can't they read my mind?

That, that is another part of this, right? Most of the time our energy drainer is related to somebody else not meeting our needs or expectations. And I guarantee you that most of the time, that person does not even know that you have a need or expectation. So again, back to what can you do? When you realize that's happening, you can decide— actually, that's a third option. You can each decide, I'm going to tell the other person that, you know, I actually really believe in the importance of your own personal power and your own personal influence. So when you do this, it really drains my energy. Now that person can choose to do whatever they want with that information. But you've taken a step to articulating it. Now, they might receive it as a gift. They might not like it. They might choose to stay away from you. But you've taken the action that you can take. Now it's their choice.

The courage that you would show to demonstrate that.

Yeah.

And the fact that you're saying, look, it's not you. Yeah, it's just me. This is— this is for me to get past this, for me to be able for us to communicate. This is— this is my thing. This is where I'm stuck.

Absolutely. Yeah. But either way, it develops that relationship.

Yeah. It creates a whole, whole other level of trust.

Absolutely. Absolutely true. You did an episode where you talked about starting difficult conversations, and that resonated with me because it was exactly that idea. Start with your vulnerability. Show a little bit of courage, which is both the same thing— vulnerability and courage, as you talked about. And when you do that, you move the relationship to a whole other level. And every time I've done this, there's always a fear and anxiety about telling the other person What your needs are. But once you do it, oh my gosh, it's so empowering and liberating and it moves the other relationship to a different place. And you realize that, wow, you waited so long. It feels so right in your world. It feels so right. Why did I wait so long to just be more honest with both myself on my need and the other person by letting them know what my need is?

Well, you know, in a business sense, it's the masks that we wear, right? And so it's very hard to do that. So how, how does— how do you figure out what your drainers are? I mean, there's, there's an assessment, but, you know, is that, is that how we start to figure out, like, how do we figure out what our drainers are?

Well, there's 2 parts. There is an assessment, and the assessment is really valuable identifying your needs and your talents and the things that, that cause you difficulty and the things that boost you for sure. But there's a whole other part of it, and you don't immediately need the assessment. Simple question. Ask yourself when you're in a situation at work or doing anything in your life and you are feeling your energy drained. Just take a moment in that moment or afterwards on a walk in your journaling exercise. Write down what you were doing at that moment in as much detail as you can possibly get to. And if you go over the course of a week, you write down these things, you'll start identifying patterns.

Uh-huh.

Right now, some people can do this off the top of their head, but most of us need a little bit of extra time and work and reflection. So that's it. Notice when your energy is low or being drained. And by energy, I mean both emotional energy and physical energy, not one or the other. It's kind of the package.

Yeah.

And then the other thing you would do is notice when your energy is boosted and when you're feeling good about what you're doing and make a note of that. And then you have that contrast. And once you reflect on that, you'll identify a handful of things, 2, 3, 4 items that you can define as your energy drainers and be aware of that. That's the first step.

Okay. That's, that's, that's really good. I think that's, you know, going back to what you could be proactive about. So abstract. So it's, it's taking that beat to realize, um, oh, I'm not feeling right. You know, even just go, I'm not feeling right. Why am I not feeling right? Why am I feeling so stressed about, about this person or this activity. It's because, oh, this is an energy drainer. So jot it down.

Yeah. And you said the word 3 times, which is the most important word in the human vocabulary, is the why. Why am I feeling this way? Right. Why? What is going on underneath? And just that powerful question faced with the circumstance, the situation will just be so enlightening. Uh, so.

Yeah, no, like you said, the people that drain you are the ones who are, um, Don't take ownership for their, their actions.

In my case, in my case, yeah, the people that blame and don't take ownership.

And, and so to go, okay, what, why don't I like, you know, Jessica?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And why is it that that bothers me? And then, you know, once you start asking that, then that's like you said, this is why I feel this way. But then it allows you to go to the whole next level. Why do they behave that way?

Hmm.

Rather than taking ownership of their behavior, recognize that, you know what, they have their own set of needs, their own set of energy drainers that they're wrestling with and trying to manage with. So you could choose to help them, or you can choose just to accept them as they are. And but at least recognizing, once you get through this process of recognizing our own circumstances, you then start being aware that, you know what, we all have circumstances, we all have needs, we all have. And so we're just bumbling along in this life, in this world.

Yeah.

And, and we're just all doing the best we can and not being so judgmental on other people's struggles. First, focus on our own struggle, get to that place with ourselves. And when we engage people in that manner, sometimes we help them, um, rather than pointing the finger on what they're doing wrong. We look at ourselves. We sometimes inadvertently end up helping the others.

Shakil, I love that you said judgmental because you are probably one of the, one of those people that is the least judgmental. of them all. And so that, you know, again, that's probably why it pisses you off when you see that somebody's blaming someone else because it's like that is not your values. And if anyone reads your wonderful blogs, which are all about really opening up about what you have learned and your nostalgia blogs and what you have learned and the values you put into play, that you could see that these values are so important and that ties in with your beliefs. Which is your, your, your needs and your, those energy drainers.

Well, Joel, you said something interesting about— thank you for those kind words about not being judgmental. It's definitely something I strive for. But look, I'm human like anybody else. So I do slip. And that's one of the other indications of an energy drainer is oftentimes when you are experiencing that energy drainer and you're tolerating this behavior that you're seeing in other people. you end up feeling guilty because you're feeling guilty because it's evoking emotions in you that you actually wish you didn't have or that make you feel bad. So when I feel that, oh man, this person is always blaming other people, I'm, I'm judging that person. Right?

Yeah.

And then at the same time I'm judging that person, I'm feeling really guilty because I'm not the type of person that judges people.

Right.

But yet I'm judging that person. So it creates this inner conflict. And so it's a bunch of mess of things that you can, you can identify and unravel. And once you kind of pull that thread, all sorts of interesting things open up about your own self-awareness.

Absolutely. So let's, let's pause here on this because we're gonna do improv, improve your communication style. But what we're gonna do is something a little bit different here. You're actually going to try out some of the exercises with me.

Okay.

I'll be your, I'll be your, your coachee on this and motivator.

I'm sure all your previous guests are wishing they had had that opportunity to actually flip the table.

That's right. That's right. So you actually have an idea of where we're going.

Yeah.

Then when we come, when we come out of that, we'll talk, because we've been talking about the energy units, then we'll talk about the positives of the, you know, the talents that you have.

Okay. Yes, exactly right.

And then we'll go towards that, to name, name those talents. So how do you sort of pull yourself out by focusing on, you know, what it is you love to do? What are your, your natural talents?

Okay, great.

All right. So I'm— Shakil, I'm all yours. Okay.

All right. So we'll stay with the theme of energy drainers. So I'm going to ask you, Joel, can you think of just one, just think of one thing that drains your energy?

Oh yeah, no problem. It's— I hate writing. Oh, so example, like, we're gonna— we're recording the podcast, and then after this, I know I've got to write this beautiful piece that somehow, you know, gives justice to the show, gives justice to you. And I know it's gonna be read by, you know, people from all around the world. So it's like, oh, what an energy drainer.

It's a lot of— it feels like a lot of pressure.

You feel a lot of pressure. Yeah.

And let me ask a deeper question. Is it the anticipation of the writing or is it the actual writing?

Yes.

Both. Yeah. Okay.

I really don't enjoy writing. And I, and then so the anticipation of knowing that that's what I'm going to be, what's going to take me all day, what I know could take someone 5 minutes to do.

Okay. Okay, great. So then my second question is, what do you want instead of that?

Um, I would want somebody else to do it.

Oh, okay. So you want somebody else to do the writing for you?

Yeah.

And let's say you were able to find somebody else to do the writing for you. What would that give you? That's the third question.

Yeah, that would just give me, give me time back. And so I could do, I could do something, something I enjoy doing versus what feels like drudgery.

Okay, so it'll give you time back.

Okay.

So Joel, 4th question. Yeah.

What are your options? My options, I guess I would have to, I would have to hire someone.

Okay. Can you, can you think of any other options?

I can try to not make it so feeling like I have to give justice to the show and justice to you. And I could think about how can I make it, you know, keep it more simple, I guess.

Okay, good. That's, that's another way. I'm going to ask you a question. So you could hire somebody, right? You could keep it simpler.

Yeah.

Joel, you don't seem to have a problem talking to me right now and coming up with the words to talk to me. So, right. Is there a way to use that talent you have of just articulating vocally in a way that'll help you with your writing?

Yeah, I guess, I guess instead of, In my mind, writing it in my mind and then trying to, you know, coordinate hand-eye, hand-mind coordination. Maybe to actually say it out loud first. Yeah.

Yeah. So I wonder if that opens up another option that if you could find a way, and I don't know if there's a way, but if you could find a way to speak out loud and record yourself.

Right.

And so instead of having hiring somebody to do the writing for you, because that can be expensive, Yeah. Instead of hiring somebody to do the writing for you, maybe you could just hire somebody to take one of your recordings speaking verbally and just clean it up and type it into a short paragraph for you.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I, I still want to have some control over it. Yeah. So, and I don't want to have to micromanage someone else to do it. So actually just say it out loud, and I love that, and actually have someone Take, take my words, clean it up, give proper grammar.

Yeah. Well, that, that's how, that's how this works. So we went from energy drainer in the span of a few minutes, and we identified options that you can take to move forward. And one of the things we drew on is this understanding of your talent. I happen to know you pretty well. So I know that you have a talent for speaking and your listeners know that too. So it's moving from your energy drainer To your talents, to finding another way. Right.

And this is good because I would not, you know, doing it by yourself, by myself, I wouldn't really recognize. All this time I haven't recognized that it's an energy drainer. I just recognize it as drudgery versus changing the language to this is an energy drainer and then going through this process of questions to coming up with alternatives now.

Yeah.

And alternatives with talent. What is it I do best? What is it I enjoy doing?

Absolutely. And I asked you questions. You actually already had the answers when I asked you the questions, which is really one thing to say about this motivation capability is we all need people. And so sometimes it's just having a deep conversation with somebody you trust.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's a, it's a coach that you can hire to help you work through this. You can use an assessment to get more insight, but whatever mechanism or tool, it's about getting that opportunity to just kind of express yourself and think it through, whether it's out loud, In a book, with a coach, right? With many options.

That's such a good point because even the energy drainers, you know what they are, but you haven't named them. And so exactly what you just said, by asking these questions, I know the answers. I just haven't actually said it out loud. I haven't named it.

Exactly right.

Great example. Lovely.

Yay!

How were you able to know?

Does it feel right?

It felt right. This felt right. Yeah. Well, it was, and that's what it is. It was logic with, with actually speaking to the emotions.

Yeah, absolutely.

Lovely. So let's, let's go now to talking about, you know, you mentioned the word talents.

Yeah.

So, so let's talk about, I don't know if you want to use yourself as an example, but let's talk a little bit more about, you know, what are talents? Because that's the next step after energy drainers and needs.

Absolutely. Well, and in fact, we might even use you because we just had a great conversation. We might build on this conversation. So we talked about understanding your energy, both your drainers and And what we didn't talk deeply about is your enhancers. What are the things that boost your energy? And we talked about needs. So those things move you to a certain level on this hierarchy of motivation. The final 2 steps on this hierarchy of motivation is knowing your talents and then using those talents to move you to your higher purpose.

Okay.

Because that is where intrinsic motivation comes from. So once you get your motivation capability to get you to a certain level, Now it's about sparking the flame of this perpetual intrinsic motivation. And doing that is all about getting to your purpose and using your talents to achieve that purpose. And so the next part of the journey says, okay, if I look to my energy enhancers, my boosters, I write those down. And then I start thinking about when am I at my greatest joy and what am I doing and what does that reveal about my talents? And what have I heard from other people that are my talents? And being aware of your talents then puts you in a position to say, the next time I'm in a situation of having poor energy or my expectations not being met, I can take control by identifying which of my talents I can use to address my own needs. And then the next step after knowing those talents is then to articulate how can I use my talents to satisfy my needs and achieve my purpose in life? And so we just talked, we had a great conversation here in a short, brief moment.

Yeah.

And we alluded to your talent of being this personality that's able to ask good questions and articulate yourself vocally. I mean, you're a stage performer, you're an actor, you're a great interviewer, you're great at talking to people. That's clearly— there's a talent that you have that lies in that. And we translated your talent, right, into an ability to alleviate your stress and anxiety and energy drainer about writing. You translated your vocal ability into an ability to create content that somebody else can transcribe for you. Easy fix. So that's the opportunity, is do a better job identifying your talents. Another, like, a talent of mine—

Yeah.

Is, for example, I love facilitating in a room and drawing out different strengths of different people and putting them together, right? Whether you call it facilitator, a leader, manager, whatever it is, I love doing that. So when I'm in a situation where my energy is draining because there doesn't seem to be a solution to a problem at hand, the easiest thing I can do leveraging my talents is call up 3 or 4 people that I respect who I know are bright and smart, get them on a Zoom call and ask them a question about this problem.

Right.

And facilitate a conversation. And by the end of 10 minutes, we're going to have a number of answers on how we can solve a problem. And so that's another example of how you might use your talents.

Is— and so going back to you for a second here, is curiosity a talent? Because you're very curious.

Yeah, I think you're right. I believe curiosity is a talent. Now there's a formal naming convention of talents that is used in motivation factor assessment, but those are just naming conventions. I believe curiosity is a talent, is a talent because that drives your ability to do research.

Mm-hmm.

To ask good questions. And all of that leads a path of learning and discovery. So if you're a curious person, you're likely very good at learning and finding answers and finding information. And then turning that information and learning into a solution to a problem. So curiosity, absolutely, I would say is a talent.

What are some other names of some of the other talents? I don't know.

Another talent, it's a, it's a fancy word, but it's called a catalyzer.

Okay.

Catalyzer is a talent that allows you to take ideas from different places. You could read a book, you could listen to a podcast, you could talk to a person, and being able to take those ideas and put them together to craft a solution, that's a catalyzer. So I think of any kind of inventor, right? Any kind of inventor or researcher that does exactly that, interviews people. I would say you're probably a catalyzer, Joel. You probably read, you probably talk to people, and you talk to, you know, lots of different people, and you listen to other podcasts, and you bring it together to create great, great ideas or solutions on communication, and that's what you do. So that's, that's another example is catalyzer. Creativity is another one.

Okay.

The ability to look at a situation not from a traditional way, but able to look at a situation from different angles and perspectives and bring creative talents to it. People in the advertising industry have this talent. Obviously artists and musicians have this talent.

So those are all talents that are brought What would you say when you, when you sort of look back at yourself, what would you say are some of your, your talents that you were able to identify with?

Well, when I think of the work I did, creativity was definitely one of them. Catalyzer was definitely one of them. Communication was another one, right? The ability to communicate a vision, articulate to people what you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish in a clear way. That was another one of my talents.

So, so this is why we like each other. Yeah, you tend to like people that are, you know, have probably similar talents because it's tied into, you know, values and beliefs, right? So it's, uh, there's certain similarities there. Um, what, one, a couple, I have 2 more questions for you. One more, which is, you know, what, so personally, you know, what attracted you to, to motivation capability? Like you're, you're, you're out there, you're coaching, you're leading, and all of a sudden this thing Flashes across, you know, you see, oh, motivation capability. Oh, interesting. What attracted you to it?

Yeah, it's interesting. So I was actually fortunate. It was kind of revealed to me. I was studying coaching and getting my certification with the Ivy Academy. And the people that run that program actually came from years of experience at a business school in Europe called IMD in Switzerland. And they had been working with Motivation Factor and Hal Elgort as part of that program. And so they brought Helle to us as part of our certification.

Okay.

Learn about it so we can use it in our tools and our coaching. And so when the minute I got, I got through the first kind of 20 minutes of this session, I knew that this was the thing that I didn't even know I was looking for. It was a format and a path to go from recognizing you want to be an influencer to actually taking action in the world, uh, and, and driving your own motivation. And when the minute I went through that, I went through a whole day of the program. And by the end of it, Joel, the, the program ended with a bit of an interview with a classmate. And in the interview, you had to get to your purpose. And so the, the person, my, my, my classmate asked me this question, And he said, so what gets you most excited when you're doing it? What are you doing when you're most feeling at your, in your purpose? And I said, when I'm talking to people and I'm recognizing and I'm using, doing my hand motions like this in concentric circles, um, when I feel like the person I'm dealing with is going to walk away and take something I've helped them with and impact other people, that's what I'm feeling at my best, my best energy. And so he pointed out the fact that I was doing this with my hands. I didn't realize it. Because you know what you're doing? You're, you're acting like a drop in a ripple in water. And that was the vision in my mind that said, oh my gosh, that is my purpose. And in fact, it ended up becoming the logo for my, my, my company.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so that whole discovery process of getting from understanding my needs, my energy drainers, to my talents, and then identifying my purpose, basically laid out the course of my life and career now. So I don't differentiate between my job, what I do for a living, and how I live my life. It kind of all aligns because I've moved up the hierarchy of motivation from motivation capability to intrinsic motivation to now purpose. And that's the power of this process.

I can see why you're— yeah, it totally makes sense. I can see why you're attracted to this because it combines Optimizing Influencing, which is strategy and emotional connection. There's, you know, again, your first point, being proactive, great, but what does that mean? So now you've actually got a roadmap to do for yourself and to help others.

Absolutely.

Have a roadmap on being aware of key moments here.

Absolutely. It's like a virtuous cycle because now that I'm on this path, I, I, I'm able to, um, step back from any situation where I'm struggling and maybe not immediately, but perhaps overnight.

Yeah.

And then able to unbundle and say, okay, this was a challenge. Why was it a challenge? What can I do about it? And once you have that investment, it's that idea that we're all— it's a sustainable energy, really. It's a perpetual virtuous ability to move forward in life regardless of what's happening around us. Yeah, we all need some of that, right? Regardless of what is happening around us, the ability to just keep on moving forward, that's what this kind of framework has given me. And fortunately, I get to do this with other people, and I'm, I'm helping them through it as well, and I'm finding some great results. It's very, very inspiring.

Absolutely. And I love the fact that now, now at my 4:00 a.m. meeting that I have with the, with the rest of the, the Instead of beating ourselves up at 4:00 a.m., you know, why, why do I hate that person? Or why, why am I feeling so tired? Now I could actually, you know, put it in, as you said, into like this sort of map as to where I'm going. What's draining me? What are my needs? What are my talents? What gives me joy? What is my purpose?

Absolutely right.

So before we go to find out more about you and more about the motivation factor, motivation capability, Shaquille, what are, you know, Maybe a couple of thoughts that our listeners can, can walk away with to put into action already. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know, some of it, what I'll do is just really crisply try to summarize some of the questions that we talked about here.

Okay.

And so I would really strongly recommend that your listeners spend some time, just write down what are the top, top 3 things that drain your energy and what are 3 things, what are 3 behaviors you dislike in others? Right. And spend some time working on those questions, energy drainers and behaviors I dislike in others. Then take a step back and you can use the assessment. But let's say even if you didn't use the assessment, you could just step back and say, what are my needs? Right.

Hmm.

Like, for example, one of my needs is the need to be heard. Right. With a, with a little bit of reflection or conversation with a coach or somebody else, people can probably get to a place where they identify their 2 or 3 kind of core needs. And once you have that understanding, start connecting the dots. What is the dot that connects my energy drainer and my need? And what is the dot that connects my need and the behavior I dislike in others? And when you kind of triangulate, put yourself in the center and say, now what is it that I can do about that? Just naming those things is the first step to saying, what can I do about it? That would be something I'd offer. 3 questions. What are my energy drainers? What's behavior I dislike in others and what are my needs?

Perfect. Swish. Nicely done. All right, Shakil, where can we find out more about, about you and Motivation Factor?

OK, well, I'm, I'm on LinkedIn. So Shakil Barmal on LinkedIn is a great way to find me. B-A-R-M-A-L is my last name. But I have my website, www.oceanbluestrategic.com. And if you put a backslash motivation, you'll get to my page on Motivation Factor.

Okay.

And from there, you can navigate to the Motivation Factor organization in Copenhagen and learn all about their instrument, their tool. And I can, I can also help you with that. That's probably the best way to find me, oceanbluestrategic.com or LinkedIn, Shaquille Barmold. Lovely.

Shaquille, thank you so much. And hey, I learned, and I learned something about myself today. So this is great. And I've got a takeaway as to, you know, how I'm going to do the— how I'm going to write the description of this podcast.

Awesome. I'm so glad. That makes me happy.

Great.

Always a pleasure, Joel. Congratulations on all you've done with this series.

This feels right.

You're helping a lot of people. And you should feel really good about that.

I appreciate that, Shaquille. Thank you so much for your kind words. Listeners, thank you again for joining us, and this has been TFR. We will see you next week. Thank you so much for listening, and if this felt right and you would like to see this interview, then come on over to our YouTube page at youtube.com/thisfeelsrightpodcast or join the conversation with our Facebook group. at facebook.com/thisfeelsrightpodcast. Or if you just want more influencing tips and communication skills, then please connect with me on LinkedIn, Joel Silverstone, or come on over to Silverstone Communications at www.joelsilverstone.com. I look forward to connecting with you.