"Turn your stage fright into a Superpower" with guest Carol Lempert

You're listening to TFR, This Feels Right.

And welcome to This Feels Right, TFR. We've got our first guest right here, Carol Lempert. Hi, how are you feeling today, Carol?

I'm actually feeling really excited for this new way of having conversation with you.

I know, this is great. We're gonna be— we got a video version and we got our podcast version. So some people said they like to really see what's going on.

Yeah, I like that.

Terrific, great. Well, welcome. So welcome to TFR, This Feels Right. This is what I call our season 2. So again, This Feels Right is about how you can influence other people's behaviors, ideas, and actions without being manipulative, whether having to show authority. So being able to use your communication skills in that way. I'm Joel Silverstone, the host, and for 20 years I've been helping people to be more influential in business and sometimes in life. And this is great, we've got Carol Lempert with us, and Carol is a keynote speaker. She started as an actress and she's now a master facilitator. You could find her at carolempert.com. And her whole thing is about how to tell it better. What to Say and How to Say It in Business, which really ties in so much with what the show is about. This is a really fun show, and Carol, I'm so excited to be talking about this because it is— I want to get this right— Turn Stage Fright into Stage Might.

That's it.

And it is about public speaking. It is about doing our presentations and how to get out of our own way. But what I also like about this, it is also about those small spotlight moments. It's not just about being up on stage, but it is also about when we're in a meeting or one-on-one or coaching or we're doing a sales call. So that's what I love about it. Now, Turn Stage Fright into Stage Might is also going to be on at Speakers Who Dare. So Carol, maybe just tell us a little bit more about Speakers Who Dare, and then we'll jump into the Turn Stage Fright into Stage Might, what that's about, and get some of your tips and techniques and how to get get out of our own way and how to deal with our anxieties and some techniques around that. We'll do our improv communication style, a little break halfway through. And then we'll get some final notes and final tips from you. More importantly, where can we find out more about you? So let's start with Speakers Who Dare, because this is, this is an interesting event and it's going to be happening in New York City in March 24th. March 24th.

Yeah, it's Broadway meets TEDx. And the 2 women who are producing the event, which I'm really grateful and excited to be part of, were TEDx producers, and they have a mission to just spread a global message. So it's me and 20 other— there's a drummer, there's a singer, there's several Broadway singers. People are talking about the environment, they're talking about climate change. There's one woman who's talking about her decision to be a single mother and give full custody of her kids to the father, and how that's kind of a shame-based thing. It's an unusual thing for women to do and to empower women to be able to make those kinds of choices in their lives. So there's a real gamut of topics. And my topic, as you've just introduced, is helping people manage their anxiety, turning their state, what I call stage fright, into their superpower, into their secret weapon.

And that's good because, you know, it, I think it reminds me of the Seinfeld joke about where he realized that most people, their number one fear is public speaking. And then their second fear is death.

Yes, right.

And so his joke about that is imagine if you had to give the eulogy at your own funeral.

Yeah, right. You'd rather be dead than give the eulogy.

That's right. Your top 2 fears happen.

And that's true. I mean, I have had clients that their anxiety about speaking in public, speaking up, speaking at meetings, asking for a raise feels that heavy for them for sure.

Yeah. So let's, so let's, let's go, let's sort of go back a little bit and, and where did the idea come from that This is something that, you know, you coach, you know, thousands of people and deliver presentations to thousands of people, Carol. So you obviously saw something that there's a need for this.

Yeah. Well, so my main offering is around executive presence, which is the first conversation that we had a couple of months ago.

Yeah.

And using the skills that actors have to help executives show up with better executive or leadership presence. And so when I'm working with clients and when I'm working in workshops and when I'm giving my talks, Often I'll give a couple of very practical tips to help people look like they are more confident. So for example, owning the space. So owning the space of your body and moving around and owning the space that you're in if you're giving a presentation. Exactly.

I'm going to just listen up.

I'm not slouching.

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Owning the space of the frame. So you take a big deep breath, you think about owning the space, you stand up straight, you've got good posture. And for, I would say, more than half of the people that I work with, just starting to unpack what their own bad habits are and which techniques that they need to be corrective to look like they're more powerful, that works for them. And then we've got the 40% of people who, even though they understand what the skill or the technique is, when they try to implement it, it's, it's still not landing. They're still not looking or telegraphing that they've got good executive presence. So in conversation with those people, really what's under that is their own anxiety. And so unpacking— I often will ask when I'm coaching them and giving presentations, for example, what are you telling yourself about yourself before you go to give the talk? And often the answers are, I just want to get this over with. I don't even want to be on the stage.

Yeah.

So if that's the little voice in your head, that's exactly what we're seeing on stage, someone that doesn't want to be on stage.

Yeah.

And so that's how thinking about helping people with their anxiety really became part of helping them with their presence.

Yeah, because that's, you know, when we always say people are, oh, they're speaking so fast, they're speaking so fast probably because they just want to get out of there.

Yes, they want to get it over with. That's often what people tell me that they're thinking.

And I like the word telegraphing because that's exactly what they're telegraphing. Yes, their intention is not about how can I help you, audience. Their intention becomes get me out of here.

Yeah, and you can see it sometimes in the pace with the voice, as you just said. But if you've ever seen anybody who's like wandering aimlessly around the stage and it seems like they're not landing anywhere and they just keep moving, Their feet are literally trying to run away, even though the rest of their body knows that they have to stay there. So that's another manifestation of how you can identify that kind of telegraphing.

Yeah. And, and, and this is a good tip because it's, um, you talk a lot about, about visualization and, and so the kind of how that we don't know the difference between imaginary and real. Right. So there's the story you're telling yourself is somehow having an effect on your body.

Yeah.

Right. It's, it's, Wanting to be out of there. So your feet are moving away.

Literally wanting to be out of there. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's talk a little bit more then about, about the mindset. You have a couple of tips.

Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of turning stage fright into stage might for me is a lot about mindset. And this was the most recently what I discovered is what's driving the anxiety is these chemicals: adrenaline, cortisol, epinephrine. And when we are facing situations that feel dangerous to us, either physically actually dangerous, like, oh my God, a car is coming and I might be hit by a car, or in the middle of the night I'm sleeping and I hear a big thump, oh my God, someone might be breaking into my house. Adrenaline starts pumping into your body to get you ready to either fight the enemy, fight off the intruder in your house or the marauder in your house, or run away. You know, you need all of that adrenaline in your big muscles.

Yeah.

Our body will also trigger that same adrenaline response, that same fear response, when what we're feeling is if we're in socially dangerous situations. So if we're afraid that we might be embarrassed, if we're afraid that it might be a shame-based kind of thing. People often are afraid to give presentations, not because they're afraid to stand in front of other human beings. They're afraid about what the other human beings think about them. So it's this reputation.

Sure.

And that's where the adrenaline comes from.

Yeah.

So what I've recently learned is that there is this magic window of time, and I talk about this in my talk, between the moment where cortisol and adrenaline are released into the system and when they start to dissipate. And during that window of time, it's around 6 seconds, if you can start to reframe your thinking about what all of that adrenaline is, because all adrenaline is is energy. And in fact, to do any kind of scary— going to give a sales pitch, pitch, having to ask for a raise, standing on a stage giving a presentation to your boss or your boss's boss, or I'm gonna go and talk at Speakers Who Dare. You need energy for all of those things. You can't, otherwise it looks like you don't care what's happening. So I actually do need energy. And if you start to think about this adrenaline in your own body as the energy that you actually need to execute on whatever the task is that you're working on, then that helps you transform that energy into purposeful energy Rather than this energy that makes us, as we were talking, talking too fast or like we want to run off the stage.

Yeah, absolutely. I think people will always be surprised, you know, because both of us have an acting background, and people will always be surprised when I'll say, oh, I'm nervous about doing the training tomorrow, I'm nervous about presenting tomorrow, and they'll be like, why are you nervous? And it's nervous because you want to do well. It's a positive energy, as opposed to nervous that Everything's going to blow up or they're going to find out I know nothing. It's a nervous energy that I just wanted to do. I want to do well. And so I think that's what you're talking about, about switching those, how we have this adrenaline, how we could turn it, put a positive spin on it.

Yeah. Some of your listeners might not recognize this person that I'm going to name, Johnny Carson, who had The Tonight Show before Stephen Colbert, before Jay Leno. was interviewed. I remember I heard this in my early acting career. I think that's why it stuck with me. He said, the day I stopped being nervous— he was like the head of network television, the most powerful person, nothing to be nervous about. No one's going to fire him. He owns his own production company.

Right.

He gets nervous. He confessed that he got nervous before every show. And he said, the day I stopped getting nervous is the day I know I need to retire, because that means I stopped caring. So that some of the adrenaline is really, I care to do a good job on behalf of the people who I'm talking to.

Yeah, it's because it is about energy. And you can see that when people become complacent and they're no longer nervous, yeah, they become complacent. And that's the energy that comes across. Another thing that you talk about, and I think is, is, is really interesting because I love this point about your audience wants you to do well. Mm-hmm. I like that because I think nobody ever goes in and goes, man, I hope Carol's gonna suck.

Yeah, I'm gonna spend $100 to go and See Speakers Who Dare, and I really hope all the speakers are terrible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They go, I got the babysitter, and I've ordered the Uber, and we're gonna go have dinner before. I'm gonna make an event of this. Whether it be Speakers Who Dare or whether it be going to see you doing a sales pitch, it's the same idea. I hope this is gonna be worth my time. Absolutely.

People want to make sure that they have spent their time well, right? So that if we talk about this feels right, That it felt right to have sat for half an hour, an hour, however long the meeting was, however long the conversation was, that they're getting some value out of it. So we— the thing that often trips us up and makes us nervous is we're worried that the audience is going to be judging us. And in fact, the audience is coming into the interaction very pleasantly, wanting to have a good experience.

Yeah.

And so that's a way to try to balance the self-talk in your head as well. Remind yourself, they're rooting for you, they're cheering for you. They want you to do well because if you do well, they get something out of it.

Yeah, they want it to feel right.

Exactly.

Well, let's take a little, a little improv your communication style break. So if you're ready, I'll tell you what we're gonna do today. I think it ties in with, with stage fright and stage might. It's a little exercise that we call Failure. Ta-da! You gotta do the jazz hands. And what it is, is I'm gonna ask you in a minute to share, as much as possible, think back to an epic failure that you had. Give us the headline of the epic failure. Say it with enthusiasm. Don't hold anything back. Don't worry about being judged, as you said.

Okay.

You know, take that nervous energy and share it with that enthusiasm, that energy. And then at the end of it, good news, Carol, you get to celebrate it by going ta-da with the jazz hands. And we will, all the listeners and myself, we will applaud you and celebrate that failure.

So it's a way to build resilience, this exercise. Yeah.

Exactly. It's a way to get it out. Get it out. Do you have one?

I do. I have many, but I have one that comes to mind that I'll share with you and your listeners. Yeah.

Yeah.

From A to Z. Yeah, early, early in my career, I was hired to be vice president of a boutique training company in Toronto, Canada. It was a startup. It was about 25 years ago, and it was my first kind of big girl, wear my business pants to work kind of a job. And we had clients. We were a consulting firm, and we had clients. And there was a high-stakes thing going on, and I had to give a big presentation. And one of the clients came in, and he was making a lot of noise. So I went and I yelled at him. And yeah, not good. He was someone that really had the kind of personality that liked to be catered to and needed to be shown, and rightly so, needed to be shown a lot of respect. So I had to eat a lot of humble pie and write an apology letter and send flowers. And we almost, and I mean, the bigger part wasn't just that I personally got scolded for having this guy feel bad, we almost lost the account. So the headline of it is, almost lost the biggest account at my very first job, therefore almost killing the business. This, let alone I might have lost my own job.

Ta-da! Bravo!

Bravo! Yeah, and I have to say, like, celebrating it now feels good. It's one of the single most formative moments in my early life to understand really how it is to give clients what they need and treat them like it feels right all the time, no matter what's going on. It was a big, big learning moment Absolutely.

It's, it's, you know, you could have shifted how the way you were gonna communicate it, you know, still, still stand your ground.

Yeah.

But, but instead of reacting, you would have responded.

Exactly. I like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I like that. But so thank you for, for sharing that because I think that is, that's again, our sometimes our fear of, oh, I hope nobody ever sort of knows our secrets or When you go up and present or spotlight moments, as you say.

So, well, and it makes me think, I often will have conversations with clients around— so they tell me they're very nervous to have to go give a presentation or have a particular conversation. And so I'll ask, what's the worst thing that could happen? Like, let's play it out. What is the big scary thing that you think is actually going to happen? Let's give voice to that. What is the probability that that thing might actually happen? If it happens, what might you do to recover gracefully? What might you do after, you know, like I had to go and make an apology. We didn't lose the account. I didn't get fired. It ended up being a huge learning moment for me. And after that, the guy and I had, I wouldn't say a better relationship, but we had a more respectful relationship.

Yeah.

So sometimes these moments that we think are going to be the worst things that ever happened to us can actually be the moments of the most growth and learning for us. And if we remember that, then it makes it less scary to face the scary thing that could happen.

Absolutely. And, and I, you know, I can definitely share many, many worse things that have happened as I've presented or facilitated. And then it's really, it's in your mind because afterwards you'll hear the feedback and it wasn't as bad as you thought. You're often, you're always going to be your toughest critic with that. Yeah, if you're not, well then there's a problem. If you're not taking, you know, you don't necessarily have to take yourself seriously, but at least take the work seriously.

Exactly.

So if you're, and if you're not, then yeah, then you should not be presenting. Okay. So let's do a quick recap. So we've got, you know, our intention to be clear. What's the worst that can happen? The visualization of—

Oh, well, so we've talked about visualization as a concept, and there's 2 different ways that people can practice visualization.

Okay.

So the first way to practice visualization is get an opportunity to be in the room that you're going to, if you can, in the room that you might have the presentation or have a conversation. Conjure it up in your mind the night before and visualize yourself doing really, really well, saying your speech very clearly. The audience is applauding you. You're bowing like crazy. The client gives you the deal. You're shaking hands and signing the contract. So you can visualize success. And that you're populating your brain with all the great things that can happen rather than feeding the amygdala with all the terrible things that are going to happen.

Right.

The other way to visualize is to visualize making the mistake that you're afraid that you're going to make and that you have the ability to recover gracefully from the mistake so that by the end of it, nobody even is going to notice it. Because the thing that people remember the most from a presentation is the last thing that happened, not the thing that happened in the middle. And so if you can recover gracefully from it, people go, oh, she's human just like me. I'm human too. And she's able to fix it and carry on. That actually increases your trust and increases your credibility for the audience. So 2 different ways that visualization can be helpful.

That's a, that's a really good one about visualizing. Okay, what's the worst that can happen? You forget where you're going next or, or whatever that might be. And you go, okay, how would I recover?

Yeah.

So you kind of give your— actually, it's like you're bringing this little friend with you on stage.

Totally.

And you're saying, you know, Plan B and Plan C, come join me.

Yes.

And you can— it's like literally, it's like you can ask a friend when that happens.

Yes.

All right.

You built it into the show.

Phone a friend. That's right. Oh, I forgot what I was going to say next. What was I going to— right. That's what I was going to do. Right.

Yeah.

And even then, when you see when people even make a joke about that and go, you know what, I completely forgot where I was going to go next. And I even visualized this last night about what this would happen. And, you know, when people even are self-disclosure and authentic.

Yes, exactly.

They connect even more.

This idea of David Letterman built a whole career out of just like saying the mistake again and again and again to make it funnier and funnier and funnier and funnier. And that became his whole brand and his whole reputation. So he actually was looking forward, I think, to making mistakes because then he knew that he could make something really funny out of it. People can do that too.

Well, we kind of want that.

When I talk about executive presence to people, what I try to remind them is we don't measure someone else's executive presence on the fact that they're always perfect. We actually think that people who have the ability to recover gracefully have better executive presence than the person that never makes a mistake. Because the person that never makes a mistake is intimidating for everybody. And then you have no way to build relationship with them. And that's a big part of having presence too.

Well, it's kind of why we sometimes, we don't trust politicians because it feels too scripted. It feels too perfect. There's missing that authenticity. But when, when anyone, a leader or just in general, if you want to be able to influence someone, you have to be authentic. If you're so worried about getting the script right, then you are not, you're not connecting with that person. You're just, yeah, you're pushing, right? You're just pushing your agenda.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And then as the audience, it just, it feels like that. It feels Claustrophobic almost. Like you can't breathe. And when you see someone lower their guard and they make a mistake or they say something that's off the cuff and you go, wow, that person, I like them. That's basically what— I like that person.

Yeah.

Okay. So one other tip before we, we bring this to a close.

Well, we've been talking a lot about the mental tips, like how you might manage your own self-talk.

Right.

So I'll give one more mental tip and then there's some physical things that you can do too, because when the adrenaline is released in your— once it's released, it's in your body and it's It needs to go somewhere and do something. So the last mental tip that I'll offer comes from the work of 11 neuroscientists from the University of Michigan and Michigan State University. And they were practicing people doing self-talk in a very specific kind of way. So first, positive self-talk, not, okay, don't screw up, Carol.

Right.

That would be negative. You're trying to give yourself a pep talk, but you're framing it in a negative kind of way. Positive self-talk, you're going to go in there and you're going to rock it. And talking to yourself as if you're talking to another person. So not using the pronoun I. And they found that by talking to yourself as if you're talking to another person, you sort of take your anxious little mind out of the conversation and it decreases the fear response more substantially. So instead of, I'm going to rock it, Carol, you're going to rock it.

Yeah.

In the same way that I would go, Joel, your show is going to be great today. So that's one tip, a mental tip that people, very practical, that people can start doing. And then physically—

Well, hang on, just before we get to the physical, I think that is such a good one because it's kind of, it's kind of that visualization of seeing yourself, again, your friend, it's not you. So it's not, I'm gonna rock it. You're seeing, it's your friend, your friend drops your phone and you go, and they go, oh, I'm so sorry. You go, oh, that's okay. You drop your phone, you go, oh, what is my problem? I'm such an idiot.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the same thing. We are more forgiving of our friend. Yeah. And so that's what I like is like when you say, it's like you're talking to your friend, you know, Carol, you know, Joel, you're gonna rock this show. It's like, oh, thanks, Joel.

Yeah. Well, I've heard you even use this technique in an even different way. You might want to elaborate on this. I know that when you do all of your I want to call them marathons. I know that's not accurate, but you do a lot of physical workout and camping.

Yeah.

That you talk about motivating yourself by talking to future Joel.

That's right.

As if future Joel is a different guy than who you are. So it's a similar kind of idea. Maybe you want to elaborate on that.

Well, there's 2, there's 2 parts to that. There's future Joel and then there's my alter ego. Hmm.

Okay.

Which is He-Mom.

Okay.

So Joel is never running these things. Right? It's always, it's always, you know, let's go, He-Mom. You got this, He-Mom. It's putting— it's like Superman and Clark Kent. It's switching. I need to fit into this category. I'm going to do that. So even as a presenter, I'm not— it's not Joel Silverstone presenting. It's the presenter or the communicator. That person is going up. And so that helps to— same idea about switching.

Yeah, I think it's the same idea. I like this idea that you can create an avatar for yourself and then talk to your avatar. Then it's your avatar that's going to go out and do the good job. And you were just there as the cheerleader to get them to be brave, to go out on the stage.

I wasn't there. I was having brunch. All right. So let's go to a couple of physical tips, because we started the show with physical tips. And I even felt better when you said, you know, like, sit up and, you know, bring your shoulders back. And already I felt more confident and I probably looked more confident than when I was sort of sitting like this.

Yeah. So once adrenaline is released in the system, it is there to help you fight or flight in the face of fear. If there is nothing to actually fight, if there is nothing to actually run away from, you still have all this adrenaline that has accumulated in the musculature in your body. And so by activating your muscles, basically dissipating the adrenaline that is now getting ready in your muscles, that can help calm you down too. So if you have an opportunity before the presentation to go into the stall of the washroom of the building that you're in, or before the big presentation and just take a big deep breath and bring your shoulders up to your ears and exhale and let them drop down and bring the shoulders up to your ears and exhale and let them drop down. Make fists tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, and then stretch the fingers out so we get the muscle of the hands that might be getting ready to punch someone if you were actually fighting. You get the muscles there.

Right.

And if you're sitting, this can be helpful for people who are presenting. Let's say they're the 3rd or the 4th or the 5th person in an event, so they have to physically be in the room. They can't go running to the bathroom to do what we just did.

Right.

When you're sitting in your chair, you can just tighten up the muscles of your bum and your thighs and your toes in your shoes and relax and let them go. And often people won't even— you're sitting at a table, no one's even going to see that that's happening. So you're activating the musculature to be able to release some of that adrenaline. So that's— those are some physical things that you can do. In addition to just big, nice, deep breaths where the exhale is longer than the inhale, and that activates the relaxation response. So you would take an inhale for maybe 3 breaths. We can do that now. The belly expands, you hold for a couple of moments, and then you exhale. 3, 4, 5, 6. And when the exhale is longer than the inhale, it triggers the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest system that operates in your body. And so if your body is like, oh, if I'm resting and digesting, I guess I don't need all of that adrenaline, and we can start to calm the heart rate and start to calm the system down. So there's some physical things that can be done as well.

I like that it has an effect on your voice as well after you take a breath. Your voice is just a lot more calmer, confident, reassuring. And again, if we want to be able to influence someone, if our voice is like this because we're not breathing, it's very difficult to get our point across. But if our voice is much more relaxed and reassured, it absolutely goes a long way. And I like the ideas of stressing your body because again, it's, it's kind of what's the worst that can happen is your body will be stressed. So why don't I stress out my body right now?

Yeah.

And then let it go.

Yeah.

And great to also, you know, got all this science behind it. So it's not just, it's not just intuition. Like there's, there's reasons why these things are effective.

Yeah.

Carol, this is great. I don't want— I don't want— I want to save a little bit for Speakers Who Dare.

Okay.

I think this is— I think this is so important. As we said, going back to the beginning, that this is not just for public speaking. This is for any spotlight moment, one-on-one, one-on-10, that you want to be able to influence someone. You want to influence someone means you really want to connect with them. You want to bring them value and you want it to feel real and authentic. And yeah, it starts with ourselves is what I'm hearing.

Yeah. And in the talk, I like that you were elaborating on this. In the talk, I am going to talk about not just stage fright, that people get these same kind of responses, test fright, date fright, boss fright, just plain social anxiety, talking to another person fright. And all of these techniques and ideas for any of those situations can be helpful.

Yeah, like going to a networking event, right? A lot of people have anxieties around that. Oh, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna talk? But if you get your— those— that nervous energy under control and have that positive spin and get the physically and the mindset, I think even that is so beneficial.

Exactly.

Well, Carol, tell it better, what to say, how to say. How do we learn more about you and how do we learn more about Speakers Who Dare?

Oh, thank you. So both me and Speakers Who Dare have a website. My website is my name, carolelempert.com. C-A-R-O-L-L-E-M, like lemon, P, like Peter, E-R-T.com. And Speakers Who Dare is speakerswithanswho dare.com. The event is March 24th in Manhattan. So if you're listening and you're in Manhattan, we'd love to have you. If you're listening and you're not in Manhattan, then the Speakers Who Dare website several weeks after the event will have all the videotapes of all of the speakers. speakers, including me, but it's an incredible event that's happening and a lot of wisdom that's going to be shared. So people can check that out. And feel free to link with me on LinkedIn. And again, it's my name, Carol Lempert.

Great. And Twitter?

Yes, @CarolLempert.

Easy.

Easy.

Well, Carol, thank you so much. These are great pointers and great tips. And thank you for being our first guest on season 2.

My pleasure. I was happy to be able to connect with you again.

Absolutely. And look forward to— well, you and I will see each other after your speaker, Zuhair. We'll be— Working together in Chicago. So I look forward to hearing about the event. And then of course we'll be able to, to watch the video just probably a couple weeks after, in mid-April, I guess.

Yeah.

Carol, thank you so much. And I guess break a leg.

Ah, as they say. That's right.

All right, thanks. Bye-bye now. So this has been TFR, This Feels Right, and we will see you on our next podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And if this felt right and you would like to see this interview, then come on over to our YouTube page at youtube.com/thisfeelsrightpodcast. Or join the conversation with our Facebook group at facebook.com/thisfeelsrightpodcast. Or if you just want more influencing tips and communication skills, then please connect with me on LinkedIn, Joel Silverstone. Or come on over to Silverstone Communications at www.joelsilverstone.com. I look forward to connecting with you.