Virtual Communication- When to Push, When to Pull with David Knechtel

Welcome to This Feels Right, TFR Season 3. Wow! We are now being listened to in 21 countries. So, thank you very much, everybody. We continue to be the show that's about influencing others, shifting behaviors, ideas, and actions without being manipulative. And what that means is that we are effective in our communication skills and mindset on how we are able to Speak to the logic and most importantly, connect to the emotion so that both sides can say, yeah, this feels right. I'm your host, Joel Silverstone, founder of This Feels Right Effective Communication Skills Training and Coaching. And for over 20 years, I've been helping people in business and sometimes in life to be more aware of those turning point moments, to be listening for those clues and cues that they're able to now deepen those relationships. And about this podcast, if this feels right, then please leave a rating, a review, or even better, subscribe. Now, let's listen to the podcast.

To not just go to the task of like, this is what we've got to do. This is why we're here.

Right.

It was to spend a bit of time. It was to reach out. It was to Imagine, like, you know, do that willful act to connect and then really to actually take the time to listen a little longer, to reflect back what we were hearing and saying empathetically, and to really make sure we were conveying this sense of care across the camera.

That's David Nectle, Managing Director of The Client Council and Vice President of Business Development at the Heart and Stroke Foundation Canada. David is not just a guest, he's also a friend. David grew up on a farm near Stratford, Ontario and wanted to see the world. And he fulfilled that. He has traveled, he has lived, he has worked in Europe, North America, and Asia and built up all kinds of companies. And he brings that wealth of Global experience and communication skills with different perspectives to share with us today on today's episode on how we can communicate and make it feel different. And how we can really connect on a humanitarian level. This is a great episode. It's really going to feel right. We're going to be talking about empathy and motivation and all the different degrees of ambiguity that we're dealing with. This episode is going to feel right with David Nechtel. All right, welcome to TFR. This feels right. I'm Joel Silverstone, and we've got with us David Nectal, who is the founder of Client Council and also the vice president of business development at the Heart and Stroke Foundation Canada. Is that correct? Is that the correct titles?

Those those are that's correct, sure.

David is also someone that. I would say, I want to say, I want to use the word mentor. Can I use the word mentor with you? I mean, a friend, a friend, but I'm going to say also has been a mentor that I've known for 20 years. And, you know, David, one of the, one of the tips that has stuck with me forever and was sort of a real turning point for me, it didn't feel right at the time, but, but has completely changed the way I approach things, which is you said to me, Joel, you need to read more.

Yeah.

And it was like, what? I am reading the sports section. I am looking at the weather updates. I am reading, my good sir. But it has completely changed. In fact, you even sent me on to a newsletter that was in the learning field. And that was a turning point because of that newsletter, I ended up being a presenter at that conference, at the Massey Learning Conference. conference, and that was like full circle. Circle was complete. So thank you.

But similarly, I mean, so many lessons of all the years we were able to work together were about improvisation, about being in the moment, staying present. There were many, many meetings we had with clients where you were always the voice, the last voice in the room as we wrapped up and be like, hey, few things, you know, pretty good meeting. Here's a few things you still need to do 'cause you just kind of jumped to some assumptions. You didn't ask the right questions. You could have done so much more. And so, you know, I carry to this day, Joel, a very, very deep gratitude for all that I've learned from you. And just so thrilled to see this fantastic work that you've created and continue to create. So I just think it's a lovely moment for us to be back together.

It is. Thank you so much, David. I really appreciate that. And this is what— this is the show today is going to be about, that about communicating virtually. David has a lot of experience about communication in the virtual world, and he's really figured out a way as to when to push and when to pull. And how do we do this now in the virtual world? So David, if you're ready, let's jump in. All right, let's talk about actually communicating in the virtual world. So what, you know, looking at that, what— you were already prepared because I think, you know, when I've observed you, you had already— this was already going on in your mind as ways to communicate virtually. So what have you figured out about communicating virtually before we even got into this COVID mess?

So, and you and I had a lot of experience years ago where we literally would do all kinds of, you know, everything from cold calling to more business development meetings, particularly like globally, but particularly from Canada into the United States. And there were always sort of 3 practices that we did. Because again, in that era, we as individuals or as the organization we were representing, we weren't well known. Nobody had heard of us.

We were— No.

Unknown. And And today in virtual world, we often are coming into new conversations or meeting new people. And it's hard to say, how do we create that warmth and that connection virtually? It's something lots of people find as sort of a new challenge.

Yeah.

There were 3 things that I think we always did which helped. One was, first was the preparation. pre-planning your meeting. It's pre-planning the conversation. I always smile where, you know, in certain clients or certain prospective clients, there were folks that we would know from our pre-planning. It's like they're sports nuts. And I'm not. Like, I really don't know who's in like the Stanley Cup or things like that.

The NIMETs. Yeah.

We would pre-plan and it'd be like, Joel, I need you to lean in. And you would, you would come equipped, you would know the teams, you would know the players. And the benefit of that was that they served already to some intimacy, some connectivity. And so pre-planning is one of the ways you start to build connection.

Yeah.

And then the 2 other things, one was we would actually make sure we tried to create a bit of a narrative or a story. So it's not just like, hey, here's what we are, what we do. we always try to anchor a bit of a narrative around it and the power of storytelling. And the reason that storytelling helps is it feels like there's something bigger or more meaningful than we're just presenting our wares. There's something big. And whether you're running like a department in an organization or your own small business or what have you, Thinking about how do I tell our story in a meaningful way? What are we setting out to do? Why is there something really rich and meaningful? What's the backdrop we're emerging from? Those stories resonate because they feel different to the audience. And then the final thing is we'd structured the experience so that we made sure we had multiple voices.

Yeah.

And the interplay, you know, we would riff off of each other, Joel, and that interplay Also conjured a sense of place. Like, yeah, there's a vibe here and, and you can't name it, but you sense it. And, and so it was those, those intangibles that are actually deliberately crafted that made a difference, I think. Is that— Yeah, yeah.

Oh, you know, this is, this is it. Like, you, you had figured out a way— this— because there's no visuals. This was an oral experience. It's on the telephone.

Yeah.

There's nothing to point to. So there's nothing to rely on except for creating an experience that we could still do virtually. And the 3 things I already said is that one, by pre-planning, you're creating an intimacy. We're in our world, you're in your world. Let's make that world smaller as much as we can by showing how can we understand your world better and relate to your world. Make— create stories. Don't just give facts, right? As we know, for it to feel right, there has to be a connection to emotions. There has to be a story that, that makes it engaging and compelling. And the other one is, um, when the person's listening or watching, they're like, I want to be a part of that. Uh, that's not— there's a vibe going on there. There's, there's that, that culture, right? When we think of a Google, we think there's a culture going on there. I want to be a part of that.

And just on that final point, it's about structuring experience. So it's like, um, I might have 2 or 3 people on the call So even today, let's say if you were going— if, you know, one of your audience members going into a meeting, you know, you've got a couple peers on a call, you're meeting another department, another group. Have multiple people tell this, have multiple people engage. What's your interplay? And deliberately create multiple voices. And the more that you're doing that and that you're enjoying that and empowering that, That's how that, that vibe emerges, that there's something, something lovely. And especially if the other side doesn't have that kind of energy, that kind of interconnection, then that becomes highly attractive, aspirational, interesting.

Yeah, I love that. And this is going to tie in. We're going to come back to this in a sense, because we're really going to talk about How people are feeling so disconnected and talk about, you know, empathy and motivation. And we're going to talk about that at the end. I think this interconnectivity is going to be such an important part of that because people are feeling so disconnected. So let's switch gears now. Let's sort of fast forward to where we are right now, which is— Ah! COVID-19! I hate you! So yeah, it's a turning point. All right. And this is where we start to maybe talk about our pushing and our pulling of communication styles. So, let's talk about the turning point of COVID-19. What are you seeing? What are your thoughts on that?

COVID has disrupted all of that. And because it's been so uncertain and because the risks have been kind of unknowable and then, you know, we're slowly piecing it together but we're still not realizing all We still get sideswiped by new lockdowns or new choices or—

Every day.

Options being limited. The bottom line is that there's new risks, and we don't quite know how to deal with them. Those risks mean that we often have imperfect information, high degrees of ambiguity, a changing landscape, and that can change within hours. And so that requires a whole new set of muscles to manage, which means I, as a leader, as I choose to communicate, I'm trying to pull as much information together, but at the end of the day, I will have to act in this state of a high degree of ambiguity, a high degree of uncertainty. Yeah, I think that's a really new set of, of conditions.

Yeah, I think you said, uh, it's, it's getting comfortable with ambiguity, which is, which is so hard. And then so your communication style now changes because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, and so you have to, uh, make some, some quick decisions within the moment, right? And so I think you had We were talking before about an example where you change your communication style about decisiveness, which is what you're seeing a lot more.

Yeah, so like one of the things I definitely— I've witnessed, but also, you know, I think it's really important is, you know, is how do you like, you know, when you're faced with those conditions, what do you do? So we had an example where I needed to rapidly stand up a learning management system. So the context was Canadian healthcare hospital systems were at risk. This is in March and April. We know the cases are soaring and all the hospital systems across the country were basically pulling in retired nurses, doctors, other people. And one of the things about the Heart and Stroke Foundation is they've got about 11,000 instructors, which is amazing. because you're teaching life-saving skills. And they needed— we basically had to create a virtual solution. And so one of the things we ended up having to do that I led was really find a learning management partner. And we went to them and said, hey, look, we need to get this in place now. We have to provide this essential life-saving training now. And so we had to find a solution. to all these Canadian healthcare workers. So we can't go through a normal procurement process with you. In fact, I can't guarantee I can buy your system, but I need it. So, um, I need you to make a decision, and I need you basically to give me the software for free for a period of time. I can't guarantee I can buy it at the end, but I need it. And if you can't do it— It's okay, because we're going to find someone who can. And it's a moral choice. And what was powerful and galvanizing is, is they, they were able to make a decision in a matter of like a day or two, hundreds of thousands of dollars of value. And, and you saw that happening all over the place. I know for some of the banks I work with, they were having to make choices on credit, on, on extending terms, on revising policies, choices that they would normally take You know, days, months, research, study. They're making choices in an hour. So there's heightened levels of decisiveness that combined in ambiguity and uncertainty. And that's really important in these times right now.

Yeah. You know, and this is, it's like hitting the fast forward button, right? So it's like, I'm going to build a relationship. I'm going to ask questions. I'm going to empathize. I'm going to find out what their needs are. It's like, no, I need it. I need it now. And so, Yes, there's a decisiveness, whether it be the banks or, you know, your style, David. But, you know, what I know from you is that you, you were prepared. You, you've always done a good job of pulling, which is, you know, building that relationship, uh, cultivating it, and then transitioning to now here's, here's where we're at and we need to move forward. And so what you did is that, you know, you already knew what that sounded like, and so you were comfortable with that communication style to be really a decisiveness. And that's I think you nailed it with where we are at with COVID is that there's no room to— there's not enough room to be hemming and hawing because things are moving so fast and we need to have the courage and confidence to go, I need it now. And we're all in the same boat. So there's an understanding too, which is nice. Let's go now. We're talking about the decisiveness and then I alluded before to You know what I've seen you before is you're very comfortable with the soft skills part, that pulling. When you want to pull someone in, you know, we use our soft skills, we ask questions, we empathize. So let's talk about empathy because, you know, and you've seen this too, right? Probably one of the most overused words in organizations and underused skills. So what is empathy? How, what do you see as empathy?

You, you know, you asked me that in the prep work, and I really gave some thought because, you know, I think empathy is this deliberate act of imagination. One of the writers I am always influenced by is Salman Rushdie, and there's a lovely collection of essays that influenced me many years ago which is called Imaginary Homelands. And in it, he talks about, you know, so many populations and people. It's a question of definition. Who am I? And where do I belong? And, you know, as I, you know, and I'm a farm kid, and I've been able to travel all over the world and live in a bunch of countries where— Yeah. I'm the minority, or I'm the linguistic minority. And so one of the pieces that comes with that is, who am I in this new context? But then who is everyone else? And so the only way you learn to navigate that is a deliberate effort of imagination of like, well, what are they experiencing? What must it be like to be in their shoes? How might it feel to be in that moment as that other person? And so to me, it's that sort of— it's an effort to actually summon that and to stay present for that. But it is that deliberate act of imagination. To kind of carry you, because how could we know? But only through imagination.

I'm writing— I gotta— I'm gonna write this down afterwards because that's great. Because it really is a deliberate act of imagination. Because I think people mistake empathy with that I should be sharing what you are feeling, when in fact you don't have to share what you're feeling. But what you do is you have to make a conscious act. Maybe you don't understand it, and maybe this is out of your, your, your realm of understanding because you can't relate to it, but use your imagination is what I like, that expression. Use your imagination to go, okay, let me put myself on pause for a second and just what do I observe? What do I see? What are they dealing with? Because you've lived in Asia and you've lived in Europe and you've lived across North America, and so you've been a part of all these different cultures. And so you've put yourself through the test of I can't always relate to what's going on, But let me use my imagination as to what I see in here.

It's, it's, and then it's giving deliberate voice to, this is what I, this is what I'm witnessing. This is what I, I think, I, you know, it's articulating that, but it's, but, but empathy, that the way when you connect empathetically is not just I passively give witness, or I kind of intellectualize witness, that there's a sense that they actually feel that you're giving witness to how they're feeling. And so that part where it feels authentic, where the emotion is truly exchanged, is rooted, I think, in imagination, because I'm not feeling I'm not feeling that solitude. I'm not feeling that hardship. I'm not. But I can convey that I'm really cognizant of it and aware.

Yeah, your effort, it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be this magical Disney-esque experience to give empathy. That just the effort alone, the sort of the, you know, the hand, the handing out, the holding out your hand in a sense, in that type of gesture, already says so much. So let's talk, we're going to talk about motivation in a second, but let's just bring empathy into the virtual world now.

One of the pieces that was fascinating over the last number of months was what was the experience of connecting to people at home virtually and doing a blood pressure reading? And, you know, what we found was there's a, you know, A, people are really struggling because they're home, they're isolated, there's loneliness, there's some real things. And so All of those things that we mentioned earlier is to not just go to the task of like, this is what we've got to do. This is why we're here.

Right.

It was to spend a bit of time. It was to reach out. It was to imagine, like, you do that willful act to connect. And then really to actually take the time to listen a little longer. to reflect back what we were hearing and saying empathetically, and to really make sure we were conveying this sense of care across the camera. So there was also a lot more of this kind of looking in, being present, seeing and connecting. And so one of the really fascinating pieces of feedback when we did surveys to all these Canadians was That, that last experience of taking blood pressure moved from being sort of a tactical experience to— they actually described it as a coaching conversation. They actually described it as something that they derived meaning from. And so I think it shows that any action you're taking virtually Whether it's just a quick check-in call with a team, whether it's an outreach call to a loved one, whatever you're doing virtually, assume you have the power within the medium to reach out and make the connection. Just slow yourself down, remember those skill sets, and raise the bar for your own imagination to reach there. And it can be done.

You nailed it when you said switching from being task-oriented, right? So that's the difference. And then it becomes when you're listening and you're taking that extra beat to really hear what the person is saying and to connect with it, not just to be moving on to the task, that there is a connection that's happening between the people, whether it be virtual or live. And I love that it becomes actually a coaching moment. So you're actually trying to change behaviors. And you can when you take— when you stop being so task-oriented and actually focus on connecting with the person as your intention.

So I love that.

Let's go over to motivation then, because I think this is gonna lead into that. You know, you've got a lot of years of experience of having working with different organizations and different industries.

I do.

And yeah, and so motivation. What have you figured out about that?

For all of us, we can sort of go, who do I want to impact? What matters to me? And whether I want to impact just a, you know, one person, or whether I want to impact a team, or whether I want to make a wider societal impact. If you anchor it in terms of Focusing on impact, I think that's the new source of motivation, and I think that's going to be wildly important as we go forward. I think the question we all can ask ourselves, and we ought to ask ourselves, is who or where can I really make a difference? And a whole lot of motivation can spring out of that belief that not only is that possible, but that's a worthy thing to do. So that's, that would be my hope, that we all see some benefit out of this very, very difficult time we find ourselves in.

Great perspective. Swish. Great perspective, David. Thank you so much. So, Dave, before we go off, where can we find, uh, if we want to connect with you, learn more about you? And maybe also learn more about the Canadian Heart and Stroke Foundation.

So yeah, so for sure, like my organization is the Client Council. So clientcouncil.com, council, C-O-U-N-S-A-L. So clientcouncil, all one word, dot com. I'm David Nectal. And then, you know, check out the Heart and Stroke Foundation. So heartandstroke.ca. Again, We're doing really critical groundbreaking research, advocacy, and also some amazing education programs. And it's really trying to make a difference that for everyone's life. We don't want you to miss it. We want you to have a healthy and meaningful life. And for those people that are affected by cardiac disease or by stroke, Helping them and their families and their loved ones recover and recover better through more research, better treatment, better support. Those are things. So check out both those sites and you can see lots more.

lioncouncil.com and heartandstrokefoundation.ca.

heartandstroke.ca.

Oh, heartandstroke.ca. Perfect. Okay. Thank you, David. Thank you so much for your time and your insights today. And it was great to Reconnect again. We will see you next week. Not you, David, but our listeners. We will see you next week on This Feels Right. And scene! Thank you for listening to today's podcast. What questions, comments, or thoughts you may have, then connect with me, Joel Silverstone, on LinkedIn or come on over to thisfeelsright.ca. And again, if this show felt right, Then please leave a rating, review, or subscribe. We'll see you next week.