Marc David and John Assaraf on The Psychology of Eating - May 20, 2014

Hey everybody, this is John Assaraf, CEO of Praxis Now New York Times best selling author of Having it all and the Answer. And with me today is my friend Mark David who's the founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. And many of you know that in the last five, six years I've really made an immense focus, effort and attention around my mindset, around eating, around my body, my exercise. And Mark happens to be a visionary leader and a teacher in the nutritional psychology and he has written two amazing books and they're classical bestsellers. One is called the Slowdown Eating for Pleasure, Energy and Weight Loss. The other one is just as good called Nourishing Wisdom A Mind Body Approach to Nourishing and well Being or Nutrition and well Being. And we're going to have a great opportunity to talk today about not just eating, but really the mindset which you all know that I love around eating and whether you're healthy on the outside, you may not be healthy on the inside. And maybe you really want to learn on how you get healthy and stay healthy all around. So as you will see, I've got this great little document in front of me of all the questions that I want to ask Mark. And so I'm going to be going off of a really good list of questions for Mark and you guys are going to get an amazing education in that. So Mark, my first question was really around one of my passions and what really is mind body nutrition?

John, first of all, thanks for having me on. Thanks for asking that question. So think of it this way. So often we are super focused on nutrition from the outside in, meaning, hey, let's take a look at the food because the food is, has nutritional value, vitamins, minerals, macronutrients, and indeed it does. But then as it turns out, this strange thing called the mind body connection, what's going on in this body will have a tremendous impact on how that food is digested, assimilated, calorie, burned. So essentially mind body nutrition is the psychophysiology of how thoughts, feelings, beliefs, my personal story, what we're living out how all of that literally and scientifically and we're going to get into that impacts the metabolism of a meal. So stated in another way, we could be eating the healthiest food in the universe, but if this body is not under the optimum state of digestion and assimilation, which by the way happens to be the relaxation response, then we will not be getting the full nutritional value of that meal. So a simple example, way back in the 1920s and 30s, Hans Selye discovered the stress response. And then years later, decades later, Herbert Benton, Herbert Benton identifies the relaxation response. And essentially this has been in the medical textbooks for so long that, that the way you and I are wired is that we will digest and assimilate in calorie burn most fully when we are in parasympathetic nervous system dominance. Relaxation response. It's how we're hardwired. As soon as we go into the stress response. In a full blown stress response, if you and I are running from a lion and fighting for our lives, digestion assimilation completely shuts down for a good 5, 10 minutes.

So let me get this right. So if I'm eating really quickly, I'm stressed out. I'm going from one thing to the next to the next to the next, and not taking time to be relaxed, I'm going to be actually doing damage not only to my body because of stress, but my food won't get assimilated, digested properly, nor will I get the nutritional value of that meal.

It's incredible. But bingo. Yes. And this should be headline nutritional news. And when you think of it, how many people do you know are eating in an anxious rush or eating under stress, or eating while multitasking, or eating because I'm pissed off, I'm upset, or even thinking the thought I hate my body, I'm not good enough, I don't make enough money and then I'm eating. So those thoughts. So here's how science, you know, the science defines stress as any real or imagined threat and the body's response to that threat. So whether it's the guy chasing you right now or sitting in a room nice and relaxed, thinking about the guy chasing you, we could put our body into a stress response. Stress chemistry, decreased digestion. What's going to happen is you're going to eat that meal. We could literally measure how much, let's say macro minerals and micro minerals you'll be excreting through the urine. So right now, if you are a super relaxed guy and we took a urine sample, you might have 5, 10, 15, 20 milligrams of calcium maybe excreted through the urine. If we stressed you out, if I said to you, hey, by the way, this interview is going to cost you 15 million bucks and you start to get all upset. We take a urine sample, you might lose 150 milligrams of calcium, pissed right away. Now think about this for a second. Americans consume more calcium than any nation on earth, except for one. And we have One of the highest rates of osteoporosis. So when you start to look at it, it's less about eat more calcium and more about excrete lessons.

Well, you've got me thinking and I'm feeling a little guilty right now. I'll tell you why. Because about seven minutes prior to our interview, I chugged a protein shake, had a vegetable soup in the microwave that I ate here at my desk in a stressed out fashion while I was getting ready for our interview, trying to get something to eat because it was late in the afternoon and I hadn't had lunch yet. So you know what you've just done for me? I'm not doing that anymore.

But check this out. Here's the good news too. If you would then take that experience and go, God, John, you're such a bad guy. What a loser. What a willpower weakling. That creates stress physiology. And that's going to create excess insulin, excess cortisol, both of those hormones will signal the body to store weight, store fat, not build muscle, that kind of thing. As you and I, in those kind of moments, as we drop into forgiveness. Okay, well I'm not going to do that anymore. So there's a positive spin on that. You're staying in essentially relaxation response as opposed to dropping into self rejection. Because check it out, it takes the body. There's a range of how much time the body kicks back in to a relaxation response after a stress response. So on average, if you and I were a deer in nature running from a lion being stressed out after that stressful event, the deer will let go of the stress response in less than a few minutes.

Wow.

So the stress response, nature designed the stress response to last for two minutes because it knows that we have two minutes and we're either going to get eaten or, or we're going to get away. So it's about a two minute rumble in the jungle kind of thing. So we got those two minutes. But humans, we can reproduce that stress and we could make that stress last for hours. So we can literally measure digestive function in the body. And for a lot of people it takes hours to kick back into full digestive function after a mild stressor that we continue to carry based on what's happening in mind or heart.

So let me make sure I get it because I think I'm understanding this. So let's say we are stressed out. We happen to eat a meal quickly, then we feel guilty that we ate that meal quickly, then we are talking negatively to ourselves, then we think about what we're feeling, we're feeling what we're thinking about. And we are perpetuating a stress cycle longer than it needs to be because we are in a self fulfilling doom loop that we don't know how to get out of. Would that be accurate?

Well put. And I want to make a little music off of what you just said. The self fulfilling doom loop. For a lot of people, what happens is this cycle becomes a self fulfilling metabolic prophecy. Meaning if you said, oh my God, I shouldn't eat this piece of cake, it's fattening, it has sugar in it, it's bad for me. And you know, those things may be true. But then if you eat the cake, oh my God, this is fattening, this has sugar in it. This is no good for me. That increased stress hormones, mostly cortisol, but insulin tracts, cortisol, those two hormones, when we hyper secrete them day in, day out, again, literally signal the body to store weight, store fat, not build muscle. So the stress we create on top of the eating that fattening food actually potentizes that property because we're literally aiming our intention on that as a stressful experience. It's kind of wild, but it's simple science.

So it's so true that whatever it is that we focus on appreciates or expands and whatever we let go of will depreciate or deflate. And so what I'm hearing you say is one of the things that I know that we talked about when you and I talked a week or two ago. We talked about being mindful of what's going on and being more aware of when you're eating what you're eating. Can you talk a little bit about that? And I know that you referred to eating slow at some point in our dialogue the last time, so maybe we could talk about a couple of those things.

Sure, Great question. You know, first off, slow is the new sexy as far as I'm concerned. You know, nobody ever said, gee, you know, I like sex so much, let's get it over in 30 seconds.

But that's what a quickie is for, right?

So all the people watching now, all.

The people watching are going, did John Asrap just say that? I said, yeah, come on, we're all adults now.

So we are designed by nature. Humans are designed to eat slowly. The act of eating quickly to the body is literally a physiologic stressor. So even if you and I are the happiest guys and we eat a meal fast, the body's going to go into A stress response. Because it takes time for the brain, the head brain, and the gut brain to scan a meal. It takes about 20 minutes for brain and head brain to scan a meal and say, okay, how much fat, how much carbs, how much protein? Is there? Enough amino acids, micronutrition? Do I need more? Do I need less? So there's a ton of information. There is information coming from the gut brain to the head brain. There's as much neural traffic coming from the gut to the head as there is the head to the gut. So we need time. Without that, slow, without that time, the brain's not certain. So if you have a big healthy meal and you wolf it down in a minute, have you ever had the experience where you ate a big meal really fast, your belly feels full, but your mouth feels hungry?

You know what, to be honest with you, it happens to me all the time. So I'm all ears right now. It happens to me all the time. I eat really, really quickly. And yeah. So the answer is yes.

Here's what's happening. The brain in your belly, which is what scientists call the enteric nervous system. It's a separate yet interconnected nervous system that enervates your digestive organs. The brain in the belly is awake enough and smart enough to go, whoa, John, you just ate a big meal full. But the head brain is going, huh? I have certain requirements. I require taste, pleasure, aroma, satisfaction, and the visuals of a meal. Plus I need time to really assess the nutrient quota of that meal. Oh, wow. So the brain goes, now, believe it or not, pleasure and taste are a requirement. We think of those as superfluous. But all creatures are programmed to seek pleasure and avoid pain. So the brain goes, I don't remember taste. I don't remember pleasure. I didn't get any satisfaction hungry. So there's this argument between head brain and gut brain. Gut brain says, I got a lot of food in here. Head brain goes, I need experience, I need to taste, because taste is an intelligence. Taste tells us what's going on, what's in that meal. So then the head brain goes, okay, I don't remember the meal. Give me more food, because I really didn't eat. And then what happens is you might overeat. And then people go, oh, my God, I have such willpower problem. I'm a loser because I had this big meal and now I'm still eating more. And you're not a willpower weakling. All you did was you didn't have enough simple information to know that if I take More time. Head brain and gut brain have enough time to make a smart decision. And the natural biointelligence of the body takes over and goes, okay, satisfaction happened. We had at least 20 minutes for that big meal. Full and done. Make sense? You know what?

I'm sitting here going, holy superlative. How many times I have done exactly the opposite of what you're doing. Where I've experienced, I've eaten more than enough, and I still feel like I want to eat more. And there's this. I've eaten more than enough, but I want to eat more. And I usually will listen to my head brain, not my gut brain. And this actually reminds me of some of the research that I've been reading in the last year or two around where the term came trust. Your gut is really from the idea that your gut has got an incredible intelligence to it, more so than even your heart. There's a lot of research around the.

Heart, but they say that the gut.

And the brain have got the most of the nerve endings versus the heart.

And.

And so is that part of what we're discussing here as well?

Yeah, great question. Well, check it out. It was about maybe 20 years ago, as scientists were getting all excited about the brain and the belly, the enteric nervous system, some guy decided, let's count how many nerve cells, how many neurons are actually involved in the gut brain? Well, it turns out it's about 100 million neurons, which is approximately the same number of nerve cells, neurons that are in the spinal cord. So that's a tremendous amount of intelligence. And to your point, which is why you and I never say, I had a gut feeling. I mean, I had an elbow feeling or I had a kidney feeling about that guy. We say, I have a gut feeling because that's where the action is. We'll even say, wow, he's got guts. That person knows how to assimilate and digest really well. They can take in anything. So there's a beautiful intelligence happening there. Deepak Chopra used to tell a story. He was interviewing a Japanese billionaire, and Deepak was saying, what's the secret to your success? And the Japanese billionaire says, whenever I'm making a business deal, I imagine that I swallow it and I take it into my belly, and if it feels good, I do it. And if it doesn't feel good in my belly, I don't do it.

I love that.

By the way, the Japanese, you know, when they say, I know, they will point to the gut and go, I know. Americans go, I know. We point to the head. They Consider center of intelligence, the hara, the tandem, the gut. It's kind of fascinating.

I love that. And so one of the things you said earlier that I want to come back around was around beliefs and how our beliefs are driving a lot of the behaviors and they have an impact on our food, on our metabolism, on our nutrition. Can you talk a bit more about that? Because I'm really big on helping people understand they can choose new beliefs. And in choosing new beliefs, they'll change their perceptions, it'll change some of their behaviors. And so can we talk a bit about beliefs?

Oh, I'd love to. You know, there's so many layers of this when it comes to the realm of nutrition and metabolism. Let's start with what I'm going to say is probably the most potent if we go over to the realm of placebo research, the placebo effect. So, you know, as most viewers and listeners know, you know, placebo, it's a fake, harmless, inert chemical substance. Every drug company, when they're testing a new drug, they're required by law to test it against a placebo. Because we've got to figure out, is it the power of the mind or is it the actual drug? Well, here's my favorite placebo study. This is in the world Journal of Surgery, 1981. Cancer doctors are testing a new chemotherapy. So they're on a hospital ward, they split up the cancer patients. One group of cancer patients gets the actual chemotherapy. Another group of cancer patients get a placebo chemotherapy. It's water injections. So after a couple of months, all the patients on the real chemotherapy had a common side effect. They lose all their hair. 30% of the patients on the placebo chemotherapy lost all their hair. A water injection, John, that's what they took. So imagine that they had the association, have cancer, go on chemotherapy, lose hair. So if the power of the mind is that strong, that that's what we can create. What happens when I sit down to a meal and I go, I shouldn't eat this. It's no good for me. Or I shouldn't go for that dairy. It causes mucus. Now, I'm not saying you could eat poison and it's not going to kill you, but I think what's happening is we're entering this fascinating, not even a gray zone. It's a colorful zone where mind is impacting the body. And it also turns out that our thoughts impact us in terms of the different personalities within us. A lot of the fascinating research behind the scenes in psychology, they'll talk about multiple personality Disorders as an interesting model for human consciousness. Meaning we're just not one person, we're a crowd. So in any given moment, you might be John the professional, you might be John the father, you might be a son, you might be a friend, you might be a killer if somebody's attacking your loved one. So we have all these Personas in us. We might have the victim. So the question is, who is sitting at the head of the table inside of us when we eat? Now, here's what I mean. Quick, quick. Fascinating research on multiple personality patients. There was one patient who had dozens of multiple personalities and had an intense allergy to citrus fruit. In one personality, such that he would eat orange. Hives would occur on the guy's back right in front of the researcher's eyes. Switch to another personality, the hives would disappear. There was another multiple personality patient who was an insulin dependent diabetic in one personality, switch to a different one. Perfectly normal blood sugar regulation. So what I'm saying is, notice your personality when you eat. A lot of eaters have put themselves into the victim mode. And when you're in victim mode, you have a certain chemistry. Now, science hasn't figured out exactly how to measure it, but you know how you feel when you're in victim mode. You know how you feel when you're in your royalty, when you're in your adult, when you're in your king or your queen, you know how you feel when you're in your rebel. That's. That might be a little different. So for a lot of people, the idea is, who are you being when you eat? Because you're bringing a metabolism to the table.

I love that. Candace Perk, who used to be with the nih, the National Institute of Health, talked about a story where people that would change personalities, even their eye color would change. And I've never heard of that until I heard it from her. And, and so our beliefs of. I love what you just said is, who are you when you're at the dinner table or at lunchtime or breakfast, or you're out in the restaurant? Who are you and what chemistry are you bringing to that table? And so if somebody has a desire to make some changes in their eating patterns, in their health, in their biochemistry, and ultimately their lifestyle, what do you recommend that they do? Obviously, we're going to give them a way to get your books to find out more about what you do. But what would you recommend for people to at least get started? Because you've just opened my eyes up in about. I don't know, 20 minutes on holy mackerel, I've got to make a few changes. Even though I've not had alcohol for six years, I've been vegan for a year and a half. No refined sugar, no caffeine, and I'm pretty healthy with six days a week of exercise and meditating every day. And I just got some great killer new strategies for upping my game. The average person who may want some assistance right now, what are a few things that he or she could do?

Great question, and I'm going to answer this for that average person, but I'm going to say it goes for you and I as well.

We are the average people.

So first thing to do literally is begin to just make the commitment to put your body in the ideal state of metabolic efficiency. Whenever you eat, which is slow and relaxed. Now, even if you're stressed, even if you're anxious and you're In a rush, 5 to 10 long, slow, deep breaths takes you less than a minute. The body can go from stress response to relaxation response. 5 to 10 long, slow, deep breaths, you can completely change your digestive capacity, your assimilative capacity, even your calorie burning capacity. By the way, the majority of your calories are burnt. Not when you do that hour of exercise, they're burnt the other 23 hours. And if we're in a state of stress, we're actually lowering calorie burning capacity. So anyway, what I'm saying is, as we begin to approach a meal, like a great conversation, if you and I are slowing down and we're listening to one another, we learn, we absorb, we take it all in the same. With a meal, we want to be just brilliant biological machines. So let's function the way the intelligence of the universe programmed us. We are programmed to eat in a relaxed state, which often means celebration, it means pleasure. It doesn't mean you have to chew your food 50 times and be bored and meditative. No, you could be happy, you could be talking. But like, what puts you in that state? It might be music, it might be sometimes eating alone, sometimes eating with families. If you do a prayer before a meal, it doesn't even matter what your belief system is. For so many people, a prayer before a meal, it actually puts them in relaxation response. So you are taking so you can change your metabolism without changing anything you eat, but by changing you the eater, which is tremendous, so it's slowing down. And also there's a piece about pleasure. Pleasure sounds like it's a superfluous thing and it's Kind of for pleasure junkies, but we are wired for nourishment, pleasure, for feeling good. And you eat the foods you eat in part because they make you feel good, either short term, long term. So as we experience the food and start to feel the pleasure that exists in even the simplest meals or even the simplest bite, pleasure catalyzes a relaxation response. Meaning you had a rough day at work, somebody massages your shoulder, you go, ah. Pleasure helps us relax. So when we take in the pleasure from a meal, we can relax. So it's slowing down, creating relaxation response through breathing, through just centering, receiving pleasure. That right there can change your metabolism. And if you do that as a practice, a simple practice, forgive yourself when you can't do it. Don't go into guilt. That's more stress response. Let it go. We are really evolving ourselves as metabolic beings because we're participating in nutritional evolution.

I love that. I think you've given me some great new habits that I'm going to incorporate. So thank you so much. The question I have for you that a lot of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Asians, around the world, we are suffering from an epidemic of overeaters of diabetes in children and adults. What do people do as far as eating the right foods, the right amount of foods? We haven't Talked about eat 30% carbohydrates or complex carbohydrates, and 40% protein and 20% of this. What are your thoughts about generally the types of food people eat? Because what I believe is most of our food has got zero nutrition in it because we overcook it and it's pretty much dead. Dead. What are your thoughts about the types of food that we eat in order to really get ourselves back on track to being healthy?

Beautiful question. I think the most general nutritional change that anyone can make. If I was the God of all nutrition, but I only had one change that I could make for planet Earth. I would say let's have the highest quality quality food that we possibly can. To your point, our food has become depleted. Even the fruits and vegetables you buy in a supermarket, they become depleted because of the soil. So the whole movement towards more organic, more locally grown, more naturally grown, no GMOs. If somebody's going to eat pizza, I would rather you have the highest quality pizza than the worst quality pizza. Most people know, like, oh, yeah, this is the best pizza in my neighborhood. If you're going to drink a juice, I would rather you have an organic juice. So whatever it is, how do you go for the highest quality version of that? Food, which generally means real, fresh, organic. The next level of that is as a planet, our food has become so industrialized that after a few generations, the healthiest populations will have a genetic change. So we have to be. I wish this wasn't true, but we have to be more sort of nutritional warriors these days. We have to be more health warriors. We have to have a strong immune response to information that's not healthy, to kind of the programming that's coming in to the commercial food that's being aimed at us and our kids. We have to have a good immune system to go. No, not really. Wait a second. So a lot of the foods that are being pushed are extremely poor quality carbohydrate foods, high in sugar, all the cereals, all the candies, all the soft drinks. And that is a recipe for diabetes, it's a recipe for weight gain. And then if you ate that and then your kids ate that, their kids are going to have a hard time. They're going to come in with a different genetics based on how nutrition does change the genome. So the recommendation is as best you can, if you can afford it, you buy high quality natural foods. You let go of a lot of the junk carbohydrates as best you can. High quality protein, high quality fat, high quality vegetables and fruits. That's the general. And one more thing about that, John, I think there's a beautiful thing called the nutritionist within the diet that's best for you is going to be different than what's best for me. And there's things we're going to have in common for sure. So it's great to honor someone else's journey. Because if you're attracted to being a vegan, my goodness, respect that, because that's going to be the wisdom of life pulling you and asking you, hey, go on this diet that might work for you for a lifetime. You might turn around a year from now and go, okay, I'm done with that. I'm now attracted to this kind of diet. So I think if we listen to that whispering, if we listen to the wisdom of the universe coming through us, speaking to the nutritionist within, it's a worthy experiment.

I love it. And it's interesting because people ask me how come I switched over to being a vegan. I said, I want to experiment with something, but somebody was telling me to just experiment with something I've never done before. The first three months of it was very, very difficult as my digestive tract was getting used to this new way of eating. I never ate A lot of red meat and simple carbohydrates. But I did consume a lot of sugar. I was a sugar aholic. And as soon as I gave up all of the animal protein, gave up the sugar, my whole body transformed. I released 30 pounds. I started feeling energetic, didn't need my afternoon espressos, didn't need anything outside of the food that I was getting and the sleep that I was getting, to feel extremely energetic from morning until night. I felt so good. A lot of my friends started saying, you look like you're reverse aging. And I said, well, I feel like I'm reverse aging. I feel like I'm just like, everything is renewed. I've had things that have been aching on me, like a shoulder that I had severe tendinitis on and a meniscus tear that have healed in the last six months. And the doctor's like, what in the world are you doing? I said, I can tell you I've been eating great, exercising and breathing and meditating. It's made a world of a difference in my physique and in. And getting into my second half of my life, which I want it to be the best half of my life. So I love what you're saying.

That's so beautiful. I want to highlight something that you said, which I think is important. And you said, you know, I wanted to try this experiment. And subsequently, you didn't start to tell us, oh, my God, sugar is evil. Nobody should eat sugar. It's bad for you. What really, what you did was you tried an experiment with the spirit of curiosity. As a scientist, let's put aside the good and bad and watch what happens. So now there's a. There's something natural, something real and organic happened in your body. So instead of saying, sugar is bad, and we could say that. But if you say to somebody, don't eat. That is bad for you. Oftentimes what they hear is, you're a bad person for eating that food. Right? And then it sets up this guilt thing, and then it sets up this battle with the food. And if we can frame it in the positive, like, hey, I want you to try this experiment. I want you to let go of these foods. I want you to try being a vegan. I'm not saying meat is bad. You know, yeah, we can clean up the food chain. And, yeah, we treat animals, you know, terribly sometimes, but let's try this experiment, see how you feel. And then there's a positive story on the other end. And that's what lives on. Not the. This is Bad. Let's fight the bad guy.

Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting is prior to going 100% vegan and releasing sugar from my diet, about six months earlier, I did a hundred day test and I took out sugar, wheat, gluten, eggs, peanuts, soy, and one other thing, dairy. And I felt phenomenal. And then on the hundred and one day, I said, okay, now that that experiment's over, let me go back to my normal way of eating. And I felt awful compared to that first hundred days. And I got to the end of like 2013 or whatever the case or 2012, and I said, I'm going back to feeling great again. I don't want this pattern. I want this other pattern that I felt for those hundred days. And so I totally agree with you in the spirit of it's not good or bad, but just test things out for yourself and then do it slowly. Get pleasure out of it. Enjoy yourself. And I think that will be one of the best recipes you could have ever asked for to be healthier and happier of body, mind and spirit, which is great.

Well said.

Love it.

When you just said that, what I heard was inspiration as opposed to motivation. Because oftentimes people get highly motivated, but a lot of times when somebody's highly motivated, they're often highly stressed and they're highly anxious. Whereas coming from a place of inspiration, that energy just keeps giving, it keeps coming out and you're inspired to be healthy as opposed to motivating yourself to not eat something.

Yeah. I've likened motivation to gunpowder. It lasts a short period of time, but inspiration is infinite. I love it. Mark, if people want to get a hold of your books, your programs, your products and find out more, where would you like to send them? Because this has been fascinating, I can't wait to dive deeper into your material and to keep developing our friendship.

Thank you so much. So, yes, thank you for asking that. If you want to learn more, go to psychologyofeating.com so psychologyofeating.com that's our website for the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. We do online programs for the public. People just want to work on their own beautiful relationship with food. I have trainings for professionals who want to kind of do this work with others. You can learn about my books there. There's all kinds of free resources, blogs, some really cool videos. So there's tons of free content. And we also put on conferences, online conferences, future of nutrition, eating, psychology conferences. So once you get to psychologyofeating.com we also have the usual, you know, there's a bunch of free videos you can opt in the eating psychology. So it's all there.

Yeah. And by the way, everybody, I signed up for it before I even met Mark and they're excellent. So it's one of the best ones to get. So I can give you my assurance on that. So, friends, I want to just thank you for watching. And Mark, I want to thank you for giving us your brilliance and your wisdom. And remember, everybody, it's your choice to live an amazing life. And part of living an amazing life is living a healthy life. And you've gotten a little tidbit from Mark David on the ideas behind nutrition and eating and psychology and beliefs. And so hopefully you've enjoyed this. And so, Mr. Mark David, thank you so much on behalf of everybody at PraxisNow. You are absolutely the best and I absolutely enjoyed this very, very much.

Thank you so much, John. Thanks for all the great work that you're doing. Bravo.

Thank you. And remember, just go to psychologyofeating.com sign up for his free videos and get some of his material. They're absolutely world class. Have an amazing day, everyone. Bye bye now.