007 - Why Stress Tests, EKGs & Calcium Scores Miss Heart Disease (Full AI Heart Scan Walkthrough)

Timing is key. This is absolutely the window.

Yeah.

And why?

These are the wrong tests. Mm-hmm. They need to be retired. They should be legacy tests. The first symptom of heart disease is a heart attack or death. Mm-hmm. We need to doge cardiology.

What's going on everybody? Welcome to the show. Today we are gonna be talking about preventing cardiac disease with the 2 founders of Clear Cardio, J.D. Enright and Dr. John Osborne.

Gentlemen.

Thanks for being here.

Great to be here.

Thanks for having us on.

So you just injected me with a bunch of stuff today. You put me through machines and then—

Non-narcotic.

Forced me live to get my results in front of an entire audience. So thank you for that, first off.

You're welcome.

It was amazing.

After we let you up off the ground and you gave us consent form for that, yeah.

And what I've learned from, honestly, I learned from this process. So I came down to Dallas, Texas after I met JD and heard of Clear Cardio and what they do in preventing heart disease. Fears. And if you follow the show for a while, I always tell the story about a friend of mine who passed prematurely in his 40s. Healthy guy just dropped dead of heart disease. And for those in the GoBundance community, I mean, we've had a few people in the last couple of years that that's happened to as well. And we all probably know somebody or know of somebody. So when I heard that there was a way beyond the standard screenings, everything else I've done— stress tests, EKGs, cholesterol readings, ultrasounds of the hearts, calcium scores— Everything else I've done, but it just, it didn't ever feel like it was complete.

Like—

That's 'cause it was useless.

It was useless.

Just gonna lay it out there.

No. So when I heard of this, it's a, you know, a technology-based approach. It leverages AI, cutting-edge sort of technology that you're using. I had to do it. Before we dive into it though, and before we learn about this, I've been aggressively studying some of the, and I maybe wanna start with you, Dr. John, 'cause this is gonna be your expertise. Let's go like true, false, true, false. This is what I'm learning about cholesterol, which is the, the thing that everybody talks about. What is it, like 2 million people on statins in the United States or more?

Oh, no, no, no. Millions.

More, more millions.

Yeah.

Yeah. Tons of people suppressing their cholesterol.

Closer to 40.

So here's a few that jump to mind that I've learned. Cholesterol, essential for myelin production.

Yes.

And myelin production, obviously, it, it, it prevents you from getting Alzheimer's and dementia.

Maybe.

Okay. It's less myelin, more chance of Alzheimer's or dementia. Fair?

Yeah.

Okay.

That's reasonable.

Cholesterol, higher LDL in particular, is essential for men over 40 in terms of testosterone production.

Yes.

Yes. So all of your testosterone or estrogen, if you're a woman, progesterone, is made, manufactured from cholesterol. Okay.

Cholesterol moving through the body Is very different than cholesterol adhering to the artery.

Yes.

Okay. So you can have high cholesterol, LDL, HDL, whatever. But if it's flowing through your body, then it's producing myelin, it's producing testosterone, so on and so forth.

All the stuff we need cholesterol to do.

Cholesterol 70 years ago, 300, 350 was fine.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, so literally just not that long, 20 years ago, if you look at your total cholesterol, high was above 300.

Okay. Triglycerides are probably more the indicator of heart disease if they're too high than even cholesterol. Fair?

Yeah.

Triglycerides have always been underrated. They are. It's a nasty form of cholesterol.

So the only thing I can surmise is over the last 60, 70 years, correlation of cholesterol being present kind of at the scene of the crime for heart disease. Not, not never causation. I don't think I've ever heard that. Cholesterol has been linked causally to heart disease. It's correlated to heart disease. Is that fair?

So I'm going to say scientifically, and plus it will generate some interesting interaction, right?

Yeah.

I'm going to say 100%, absolutely critical, core, mandatory, necessary, but may not be sufficient.

What do you mean by that? What may not be sufficient?

Okay, so imagine this. You got cholesterol floating down your In your vessels, right? Just floating around doing nothing, right? The critical step is whether that cholesterol attaches to the lining of the vessel, called the endothelium, and then whether it enters via the endothelium between the endothelial cells and into the wall of the vessel, right? So it's not just how much cholesterol there is. You can imagine the more cholesterol, the more likely that could happen.

Sure.

But it also depends upon, I like to say, how sticky the vessel is, right? Well, okay, so then we get into inflammation.

I was going to say, the vessel is sticky if there's inflammation.

Correct.

So if you have a high sugar, high glucose diet, probably more inflammation. Smoke, right? More inflammation, more cholesterol adherence. So cholesterol's job is to attack inflammation, is it not?

Yeah.

So if you don't have inflammation, then cholesterol, well, I'm sorry, cholesterol, when I say correlated, then in my mind, and this is with many minutes of study, but cholesterol is correlated because—

All 30 seconds.

All 30, 45, maybe, maybe a minute.

I don't know, a minute.

Um, but cholesterol is correlated. And what I mean by that is if there's not inflammation, cholesterol's not adhering.

Yeah, I, I think it's— well, it's really the interaction between cholesterol and whether it gets And it's if it's sticking or not.

Correct.

So because of that, I can show you people who have high LDL cholesterol, Jimmy, high LDL cholesterol, but it's not sticking.

Yeah. Can I say that? My LDL is 209.

Yeah.

209.

So on the vessel side, right? So we got cholesterol, right? It is the stuff. If you do an autopsy, heaven forbid, or if you get that material that's in plaque, right, it is cholesterol. 100%. Right. So, so we do not form plaque in the absence of cholesterol.

We do not form plaque in the absence. Yes. Agreed. Yep. Makes sense.

It does not happen.

Yep.

However, it's a very— it's too simplistic a model because at the vessel level, that endothelium, that single cell layer that separates the stuff in our blood and our vessel wall, think of it as a continuum between Velcro to Teflon.

Okay.

So if you have Velcro, yeah, even if your cholesterol is not high, right, it looks great. Yeah, pat yourself on the back, looks awesome, right? Yeah, it can stick all day long. Yeah, you can have extensive plaque.

Yeah.

Conversely, you can show the opposite of that where your cholesterol is high, right? You got lots floating by, but your vessels are like Teflon and it does not stick.

Yeah, that makes total sense, right? Yes.

And so You have the cholesterol people going, cholesterol's bad, right? Well, yeah, cholesterol has to be there, does stuff like you mentioned. And then you also have people saying cholesterol doesn't matter at all because it's all inflammation. And you know what? They're all both wrong and they're both right. It's the interaction between the two.

There you go.

Right? So everybody could be right.

Right, but what I'm surmising is back in some, at some point, tell me if I'm wrong on this, Cholesterol became the, the, you know, victim number one, or public enemy number one for heart disease, whether it's correlated, whatever. It wasn't sugar. In fact, sugar was— eat breads, here's the food pyramid, all that bullshit.

Well, yeah, there was some crazy—

yeah.

So drug companies then can develop drugs to lower cholesterol. I don't think they can develop or haven't developed drugs to lower triglycerides.

They actually have. Yes, they have.

Have they? Oh yeah, yeah. Are they just like less expensive? Like, why aren't they pushing it?

Oh God, no.

Okay.

I mean, maybe that's a separate story, but we'll get into that. But yeah, we'll get into that.

But as a result, cholesterol became, ooh, 250 is high, 200 is high. 170 now is the number, 180, whatever the hell it is today. Right. So the lesson I'm learning is my cholesterol at 209, unless it's adhering, unless it's sticking, it's not a problem.

Right.

So if I said— right.

So I, as a preventative cardiologist who— this has been my passion for 30 years. Also not just— also board certified in lipidology, right? The, the study of lipids and cholesterol. Right. I would be the first to agree with you.

Okay.

Yeah. And you and I are very similar in a lot of ways.

You and I?

Yes. Jamie. A little better looking, but yeah. You're much better looking. But what I mean by that is I, too, am a patient of Dr. Osborne.

Yeah.

And we'll probably get to that later. But my cholesterol was to almost 250. Total. Yes. 248. No, my bad cholesterol.

Oh, bad cholesterol.

Yeah. Like, was like really high. And I'm 50, at least 57 in March. And this was a couple of years ago. So I was in my 50s. You're in your 40s. So I'm what, about 10 years old?

11?

Yeah. 11 years older than you. Thanks.

I had to make sure I wanted to go for 10.

You go shot for 11. Thanks very much.

At this point, I have to get every year.

You guys saw that, right? But no. So, so 10 years of Eating whatever, you know, I eat relatively clean, pretty healthy guy. But my total, my total plaque, and we'll get to that too, my total plaque burden, volume burden, yeah, was like 260-something.

Gotcha.

Whereas yours was, I think, 40.

25, 28.

28 or something like that.

Same as your age.

Not that 10 years is gonna 10x that, but I'm just saying, you know, so But from a high cholesterol perspective, in the grand scheme of things, I wasn't like a level 3 or something like that. I was more like lower level 2.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

But still, so I don't have overly sticky arteries, but I still have enough sticky artery to make a difference. So, yeah.

Makes sense.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, so we are similar in that regard. So then what is the issue today? If this is, I mean, this feels like it's, I'm seeing this widely reported now. A lot of cardiologists are coming out and saying, yeah, hey, cholesterol's not really the— by itself, the issue. There's plaque. It's, you know, this, it's that. And even just the way we look at food and diet now, sugar and breads and all of that, not good. You know, maybe vegetables, whole foods essentially is what— is what— what's being pushed. Why then are we still in this mode of as soon as we hit cholesterol at 200, we're putting people on statins? Like, why is this not more pervasive? Is it just money? Drug money?

You know, I'm not really going to fault the drug companies per se. You know, if you look at why those numbers progressively went down, it's because we did studies. Right. And we show, oh, geez, we have— in fact, if you go back to 1994, this is the first statin trial that was first reported. Right. Before then, we had really very, very limited tools to treat cholesterol. It was really an evidence-free space. The first statin trial using a legacy statin that we don't use anymore. took people who'd already had a heart attack, right? So they, they only not only have plaque, but they had already had a heart attack.

Yeah.

We then randomized them to nothing, which we could not do today, or to an early lower dose of a statin. And that trial showed a 34% reduction in cardiovascular events and a reduction in cardiovascular death. However, The starting LDL in those individuals was 190.

Okay.

And they already had known heart attacks, right? They had already progressed through depositing plaque. It resulted in a heart attack. And so it's kind of striking for me in 2025 to think that we could do a study, albeit 30 years ago, and take somebody who'd already had a heart attack with an LDL of 190 and scientifically say, you get nothing, you guys get a cholesterol-lowering drug.

Yeah.

And we did those studies. And what happened is every time we did those studies, we start out with 190. Well, what about if we get it down to 160? Well, yeah, there was benefit. And then that rinse, lather, repeat of science occurred. And every time we brought it down lower, our tools have changed over the time, right? Every time we did that, we had less events. In fact, if you look at the most recent studies in the cholesterol space, we now have tools, drugs, whatever, that can lower LDL unbelievably low, right? I mean, so now we're looking at people on drug achieving LDLs of 30 and still versus people with an LDL of 90, right? All on drugs. But one group got a more effective drug than the other. But we lowered LDL to 30 and we still saw a reduction in cardiovascular events. So we've never reached the point at which a further reduction in cholesterol doesn't translate to less events. However, you got to appreciate these are generally looking at people with known heart disease, not just detecting a tiny little bit of plaque in a vessel.

Yeah.

But who've already had what we call secondary prevention, who've already had an event. Right. They already got multiple plaques, multiple blockage. They've had stents and balloons and bypass surgery. So these are people that have extensive plaque.

Yeah.

Which case, lowering cholesterol, which is the stuff that gets in the vessel, makes sense. And with the tools we can lower it, then it makes complete sense to shut off the fertilizer.

It's so interesting.

That's very different from someone who's never had heart disease, who does all the right stuff, in which case then we get so hung up about the cholesterol, never knowing, unlike the people in these trials, Balloons, stents, bypass surgeries, blockages, strokes, heart attacks. In primary prevention, who've never had an event, we go, oh, well, that's the cholesterol that bought this guy a heart attack, so let's lower that cholesterol and we're doing you a favor, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's not the same logic, because all the data and the studies and science are focused on people who have generally established heart disease. Plaque, that not only have established plaque, but has progressed to the point where it's caused an event.

That was the pivot point for me, Jamie. When I first met with Dr. Osborne and I learned that your cholesterol levels, while cholesterol is critical to heart disease, i.e., plaque buildup, you can't have plaque without cholesterol, right? The idea that you have to have high cholesterol to have heart disease or plaque in your arteries versus having low cholesterol and having plaque in your arteries is really based on you.

Right.

As a human being.

It's the Velcro Teflon.

Genetically, all of that stuff that comes into place as personalized medicine versus just assuming that someone who has high cholesterol needs to go on a drug. That's not the case. And when that light bulb went off, when I learned that from Dr. Osborne, And I realized that we really, the standard of care really needs to be about an individual and understanding that individual's capacity for turning cholesterol into plaque, like Velcro versus like Teflon. Only then, and looking under the hood and understanding, the only way to know that is to look under the hood.

Right.

Right, all the risk factors are irrelevant, quite frankly, until you look under the hood. And that's why, Clear Cardio exists primarily for that reason because, you know, at 250, 260 cholesterol, right at 56 years old or 55 when I started taking the tests, you know, one would assume that, you know, hey, you got to get on a statin right away. Da da da da da da. You could have lots of. And I went in there and yes, I do have cholesterol. I have heart disease. I have plaque in my arteries, in my widowmaker, as a matter of fact, similar to what you have in issue. That's the only place that I have it. And only then did it make sense to start dropping my cholesterol down, because I know that my body, in a very specific way, converts cholesterol.

You're Velcro.

Yes, well, not as bad as, say, other people, which could be way worse, who have a 100 bad cholesterol level, but yet everything that comes through their bloodstream and cholesterol sticks.

That's why that 150 total cholesterol person still has a heart attack.

Absolutely. Precisely.

It happens all the time.

And that was the light bulb for me. Wow. This— you have to do this to know.

That's it. So I really— I'm excited to get into your, your pathway to clear cardio.

It's really treat the disease.

Yes.

Not someone who looks like they might have the disease.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's where we've always started from. Right. You look at your age, sex, total cholesterol, HDL, blood pressure, smoking, that kind of stuff. And we put that into a formula and we come up, well, it looks like you might have heart disease. Well, do I have heart disease? I have no idea. You look like you could. You look like someone who could. And as it turns out, we've done these studies already with imaging. If you do not have plaque, lowering cholesterol does not benefit you.

There you go. There you go. That makes sense. So on this, wrapping this up, and I want to get into your story, I think the point I want to make here, and there's actually a little bit of a personal anecdote with this, is like what we think we know about cholesterol There's a whole other world out there that, I mean, seems more like the truth than what is sort of mainstream right now. And that is that cholesterol is essential for immunodefense, helping boost your immune system.

Sure.

It's essential for myelin production, which is a factor. It's the fat on the brain in keeping— in fact, I believe dementia and Alzheimer's are— there's a correlation in terms of like incidence rate with the push to lower cholesterol over the last 40, 50 years. We're gonna go with it.

Yeah.

You're the scientist. I'm gonna go with it. Conspiracy theory's more fun. Yeah. Cholesterol's essential for testosterone production. Like all these things we talked about, right?

A variety of hormones.

It's the plaque. It's the plaque and all these tests. So I talked to a bunch of buddies of mine from high school and I, or not high school, but like just around college age. And I, we tried to do a Zoom call. We live all over the world and country once every few months. And I told 'em I was coming here this week. We just did it this past Sunday. And they're like, oh yeah, they ran through it. I've done the stress test. I've done the CT, cardiac CT. I've done all these things. And I was trying to explain like, yeah, that's, that's all good, but it doesn't get this. Like, no, no, no, no. I had no blockage. Like, yeah. And I was doing what you did. I explained like, there's a donut. It grows up first.

And they're like, I appreciate that.

I was Dr. John Osborne.

You've warmed my heart.

There you go.

Without the doctor.

You've taught another one.

Yes.

Another disciple.

Yes. Another disciple.

But it made sense, right? You've got an arterial wall that gets deteriorated or bloated by, by plaque growing up. It thins out, boom, it collapses. Just like if you had a copper pipe that had no more structural integrity, it would collapse. That's the lights out. This guy was healthy and all of a sudden he died. The plaque was growing up and not down. You look this way, nothing that looks really bad, but you look through the artery, nothing. You can't see any blockage. A stress test, you've told me, is up to 70% blockage, you're cool. EKG is the electric, not the plumbing. All these things, I've done them all. Right, but until you look at the plaque, You have no idea. And thankfully for me right now, little plaque, not bad. And we're going to look back at it.

And a comment, right? You know, we talk about good cholesterol, bad cholesterol. Cholesterol is neither good nor bad. Yeah, it's just a molecule, right? It's where that cholesterol ends up is the problem. So when we begin and if we begin to warehouse cholesterol in our vessels, that is never a good place to store cholesterol.

Right.

Right. We also can put fat in our liver. That creates an epidemic problem called— now we changed the name to MASH, metabolic-associated steatohepatitis, which is a long-winded way of saying fatty liver.

Fatty liver.

That 40% of us, or probably closer to 50%—

Why'd they change that? Is it a woke thing? Why isn't it fatty liver anymore?

Well, it was called NASH, which was nonalcoholic steatohepatitis, and then people got touchy about calling people alcoholic and all that kind of stuff, when in fact, the vast majority of the time, it's not because you drink too much, it's because you eat too many carbs, you got a crappy diet, You don't exercise, your triglycerides are high, right? So we sort of— it was a little bit of a PC name change. You said we can say anything here.

No, it's woke. I don't like it.

To call it from non-alcoholic alcohol, you know, oh, are you insinuating something, Dr. Osborne? To metabolic associated, which is actually probably a better appreciation of what causes it.

Did you see the manufacturer? This is a quick aside. Did you see the— it was a senator or congresswoman? who said not enough women are applying for manufacturing jobs.

And the reason is— did you hear this? Yeah. No.

The reason is manufacturing sounds too masculine. Why would I want to apply for that? We should like— I don't know if anything— wool manufacturing. It was like on in Congress, live session. That was what was said.

Anyways, this really never took—

fatty liver.

You can get a golden visa. Whoever said that in another country very easily now, I'll pay for it.

100%.

All right. That's— that's— I really wanted to land that point. Because that's what I've learned through this process. And what I'm excited about seeing is like, okay, I don't feel like cholesterol is an issue for— I have higher cholesterol. I've always had higher cholesterol to some extent, higher than whatever it should be.

I like to say my favorite line, you chose the wrong ancestors.

Yeah, right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly.

But they did too, actually.

To see what the cholesterol is actually doing. Right. It's like guns. You can have a whole bunch of guns in the house. If they're not shooting anybody, they're not harming anybody. More guns doesn't mean more violence. It's just there are more guns, right? If you're shooting people with more guns, then that's a problem, right?

You can solve this whole demyelinization issue with cholesterol and testosterone issues and all of that stuff. You could get rid of all of those myths and conspiracy theories. Just come into Clear Cardio.

Yeah.

Find out if you have heart disease plaques in your arteries. And then if you do and it warrants taking medications to lower cholesterol, then take the cholesterol. Because what's worth— what's worth, you know, maybe not getting it up every once in a while or dying of a heart attack and leaving your family behind? Right. What's worse? Right. So like it's short-term versus long-term. And there's no— there's no— to my knowledge, there's no direct correlation.

I will tell you. So this is late-breaking news.

Okay. Well, I like it when he does this.

This has not yet been published. Okay, let's hear it. So using the AI tool technology that we use.

Yeah.

Right. We looked at 250 people and they all did an AI analysis. We know exactly how much plaque they have down to a 10th of a cubic millimeter. Right. Then we looked at their cholesterol. We looked at total cholesterol, triglycerides, LDL, HDL, ApoB, any fraction and formulation and slicing and dicing cholesterol you can imagine. There was no relationship between how much plaque you had and what your cholesterol levels were.

Makes sense.

Right?

Yeah.

Because you don't know. I can't tell you, is it sticking or not? I do not care about your cholesterol unless it's sticking.

Yeah.

Right? And the only way you know it's sticking is you gotta get your scan.

You could have a 300 cholesterol count, bad cholesterol count. You come in to see us and you have no plaque.

Yeah.

Right? We've seen that.

Yeah.

No plaque, clean as a whistle, or very little plaque, if any. So nothing to really concern yourself about, right? Not have to worry about taking a statin, and the whole cholesterol statin issue goes away, right?

So 2 weeks ago, scanned a couple, right? So they're married long time, same environment, exercise, diet, right? Her LDL 184. Pretty high. Yeah, right. His LDL 224. Yeah, pretty high. But I mean, both high, right? We put them in the scanner, the wife, and they're both 156, 157, right? So, I mean, environment— They're in great shape.

They eat healthy.

Yeah, they eat healthy, do all the right stuff. Again, same environment, right? Different parents because they weren't from Arkansas. Sorry.

He does this. He does this. It's embarrassing as hell, but it's great. It's true.

Tip your waiters, please. So we scanned them, right? She had less plaque than you.

Mm-hmm.

And he was a stage 3. He had 658 cubic millimeters, which is great for an engine.

Can we frame this? 0 to 250, stage 1, 250 to 750, stage 2.

So she was stage 1, barely. Yeah, just like you. He was stage 3. 658 cubic millimeters of plaque and lots of the bad, nasty, active, soft lipid-rich plaque. I call it lava.

Yeah, someone looks at the other podcast.

Unless you put them in the scanner, you'd never know, right? Yeah.

So amazing. Amazing. When I talked to you and learned of this and I talked to Sherry, your chief marketing officer—

That's why Save Your Life, I think. Isn't that what it is?

I think so.

At least give you peace of mind.

Well, that's it. Yes.

So we call her Save Your Life Sherry.

You know, this is a— ClearCard is a concierge medical program. programs specifically for preventative— preventing cardiac disease, right?

There's technology.

Eliminating. Eliminating. Good point. Eliminating cardiac disease. It's a great point.

Yeah.

We wanna get rid of it.

That's my professional goal, right?

When it comes to—

I just wanna eliminate the disease.

100%. Right. And put yourself out of a job. Exactly.

Put me out of business.

But for me, it was like, wait a minute, you know, there's a cost, there's the travel, there's all the things to it. But it's like, but I, I get one of two things. Either it's like, I don't worry about this for 3 years or whatever. I don't worry. I just, okay, this is out of my mind.

Which I don't have to now.

Yeah. I don't have to worry right now. I feel, relief. Yeah, no bullshit. Like, that's what I feel leaving. It's like, yeah, okay, now I can go worry about cancer.

You can work out as hard as you want. You can work out as hard as you want. You can eat all the meat you want.

Any little ping. I told— I think I was talking to you about this. Anything like, oh, is that something? It's on this side.

What's going on?

I could just— all right, just get out of your head, Jamie, and just go.

Go get a good night's sleep.

Play with your kids, wrestle with them, do all that stuff.

Get a good night's sleep.

Or I'm stage 3 plus or whatever it is, and I add years to my life.

Either way, Yeah.

That's the investment of time, money, and energy that I want to put into this, 'cause I have 2 young boys, 9 and 6 years old.

Dr. Osborne can save your life.

Right, and that's what I— he saved me, in this case, peace of mind, which saves my life in a different way.

Yeah, yeah, stress, cortisol production, all that stuff.

Correct, but I could also have had my life saved. Like, there's really, it's either way.

It's tragic, right? And this has happened millions of times, right? You get the usual cardiovascular workup, EKG, stress test, they pat you on the back and you die next week.

Right?

Right. It happens all the time.

It does. You hear about it all the time.

And it's terrible.

He just had a stress test.

It's unacceptable.

Yeah.

It is just absolutely unacceptable. So that's why, you know, working with JD, we put together Clear Cardio. We're just out to, to eliminate heart disease.

Well, your passion for that makes sense. This is a 30-year profession. You've been— you've obviously been educated on this. This is your life. Your passion for this. So you're an entrepreneur, you're a serial entrepreneur. We'll say you've exited multiple businesses. You've done great for yourself. So congratulations.

Thank you.

The exit of a tech company into a, I don't know what you call it, cardiac prevention company with some tech underlying it. Is it that, hey, I see opportunity and I understand the tech world, so it doesn't matter what the product is.

Yeah.

Makes sense. A plus B equals C. I could see the potential here.

Yeah.

But it sounds like there's more of a story maybe around, around like, how did this start for you? Clear Cardio?

Yeah. So it started out as, you know, like you, what's that twinge? What's that feeling? Right. And I always just blew it off because I, you know, when I was back in the day when I was running a tech company and here and we're, we're coming live from Dallas, Texas. So not far from here, actually. It's very stressful, and as part of that, we had shareholders. We're a multi-million-dollar company, and I was required to have something called keyman insurance.

Mm-hmm.

And for those of you who don't know what keyman insurance is, it's an insurance policy that the company takes out on you in case I get hit by a bus because I'm flying from one boardroom, from one meeting, you know, whatever, traveling, whatever, if I get or die of something or become incapacitated in any way and I can't run the company.

Yeah.

That money goes to the company to find a replacement for me.

Yeah.

And so at the time, I believe it was a $50 million policy, and the insurance company required me to go to a clinic to get, you know, like if you were getting like life insurance, to make sure that I didn't have a fatal disease or, you know, whatever. Uh, so I would— I went to the best clinic, um, that, that I was told everybody said was one of the best clinics in the country, if not the world, uh, certainly in Texas. And it was concierge, so no health insurance, uh, because here at Clare Cardio we don't take health insurance for a number of reasons, which is a whole other podcast.

Yeah.

Um, but, but I went there and I would pay, you know, $15K. I'd get there 6 in the morning, I'd leave at 6 at night, and they did everything. I, they— I was It, for me, it was, yeah, it was literally, you know, turnover, bend over, lay over, roll over, running on treadmills, EKGs. You know, I look like Top Gun running on, you know, with masks and everything, EKGs, everything. And they would give me a binder and I'd walk home with the binder at the end of the night and I'd sit down with my wife, Yvette, and she'd ask me, honey, how did it go this time? Because I'd go every quarter.

Right.

And she'd be— and I'd be like, oh, I'm not on medications. Everything seems to be fine. They didn't find any cancer, I don't think, you know. And I'd have this binder and I have all this information there. And I knew I had high cholesterol. They kept telling me I had high cholesterol, but it didn't meet the criteria, whatever that means. It was like a 10% or something like that.

You had a pulse and were breathing.

Yeah, there you go. But they wouldn't— but they didn't really explain because it was just, okay, you're good enough. Here's your insurance policy. Fast forward to nine months prior to you know the sale of the company. I was busy and not sleeping well, and you know I was in the middle of night. You stand up. What is that? Maybe it's muscle or whatever. It turns out that wasn't like a health. It wasn't a heart issue, but I didn't know that.

Yeah.

But so I go to my neighbor's house, who's Dr. Raju Kizori, who is an interventional cardiologist, which is the opposite of what Dr. Osborne is. He's the one. that you don't want to see ever, right? Right. The casts, whatever surgeries. And I just was at a party. He walked across the street, bottle of wine with my wife. Welcome, you know. And I walked in the door and he looks at me, goes, JD, you don't look okay.

What was it specifically? What did he see?

I don't know. Doctors see that stuff, you know. Maybe because I was in my robe. Pocketbook.

A pocketbook?

Insurance.

I should have came clothed. I didn't know it was like Clothing optional, you know. Right, right, right. No, but seriously, he said, I want you to come see a colleague of mine.

Yeah.

And I want you to come tomorrow. And so off I went, right? And so literally brought me in the back door, rolled me in, and introduced me to this fine young man right here. And he proceeded to just change my perspective on the world. And the first thing that happened to me was I got very angry. I got angry that I had spent— the company spent a fortune over 4 years, 3 years of all this insurance and not getting anything from it. I got angry because I was running the risk of having a heart attack or stroke and leaving my family behind and all the work that I had built and the wealth I had built for my family and just leaving my family behind. And I got angry that the doctors really weren't doing their job. Because, you know, why is it that you've got this unicorn here, like, by the name of Dr. Osborne, who's been yelping from the rooftops about preventive cardiology?

Yeah.

Right? And so, so then, so then all of a sudden I started to accept that, and I said to myself, okay, I have heart disease. I have plaque in my widowmaker. I had red plaque. I had lava as well as yellow and blue, and blue is calcified, yellow is the medium plaque, still dangerous, right? But I had red as well, which is really dangerous stuff. And so, all of a sudden, I became fixated. If you're an entrepreneur, like I know you are and many people are who are watching your show, when you see something, you go after it. just absolutely fixated. You'll read every book, you'll lock yourself in behind closed doors, you'll talk to everybody you can.

Nothing else matters.

Nothing matters. You go down the rabbit hole, and I went deep into the rabbit hole, and I called friends. I went up to California, and I said, is this all real? Are that many people dying? Are these statistics actual? Because what he was— what Dr. Osborne was telling me was hard to believe. The fact that Half of all the people who have heart attacks and strokes, which is like, you know, millions and millions and millions of people in the United States, more than anybody who dies of cancer, all the cancers combined, all the infectious diseases combined, including COVID and all that other stuff, all of those combined don't equal the number of people who drop dead of a heart attack or stroke every year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Who don't have to die? How are we not doing something about that? So I started thinking to myself, well, I don't want to die. I don't want my wife and my future— my children who are growing up, I have 2 children, or my friends and colleagues that I've worked next to, my brothers, and my father's 92, and he'll never die. He's just a pain in the ass, but I love him to death. But my mother, whatever. So, but then I started thinking, well, wait, hold on. And I said to John, I said, Dr. Osborne, I said, why isn't this the standard of care? And he proceeded to tell me a lot of things, and I filtered all that out, and what I heard was, for the most part, doctors are not good business people. They're just not.

What do you mean by that? They're not good business people?

They're just not. They're just, all of my experience, and I'm—

No, but I mean, how does that correlate? What do you mean?

Because they don't know how to get it out there. They don't know how to turn it in.

They're not good marketers.

Well, because venture capitalists, private equity investors, money, government grants goes towards people who know how to get the message out and show that they can turn a profit. I know that sounds terrible, but guess what, guys, girls? If it's— if you can't make a business out of it, if it's not sustainable, because the government can't subsidize everything. So if they're not— so it's got to be sustainable. So you need business guys and girls who understand how to build a company, a business that is profitable, that people will invest in to grow out, because the bigger it grows, the more people you can help.

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

One of the biggest problems we have with, like, when we— in philanthropy, when we give money to these causes overseas or even here in the US, you just give, give, give, and it's like a black hole and just disappears into nothing because they're not building sustainable businesses that can be sustainable.

Yeah.

So to me, what, what I heard through all the discussions about why doctors don't do this and the training that they don't receive or do receive, and it's the wrong training and all this stuff, it came down to me. All I heard was they don't know how to do a business. They don't know how to run a business, and they don't know how to get the message out properly, whether it's social media, like talking to folks like you who are geniuses in this space, or beyond genius, or, you know, or building, using AI not just on the technology side for the medical side, but also sales funnels, getting people together. How do you communicate a message that's authentic, that's real, that people can connect to so that they— and that creates trust, right? And authority.

Yeah.

To be able to get people to make that decision to save their own lives, because that's what they're doing. And so for me, that was like, okay, I got angry because I got taken advantage of and it risked my life. I got through that. Then I decided— then I was like, how do I figure this out? Why isn't this the standard of care? Knowing that I, you know, I can't change the world. When you're an entrepreneur, you start out thinking you can change the world. Some people can, right? We can't all be Elon Musk. We can't all be, you know, those guys. But we could, we could do our part. And so I said, how do I, how do I do my part? How do I make it a business that's sustainable? that people will invest in, um, make it at the same time affordable to a lot— to the masses, right? Um, and, and to be able to grow this and save more lives. And that's where I came together and created— that's why I created— that was my story, why I founded, co-founded, uh, Clear Cardio with Dr. Osborne. It— we work, yeah, right? Force multiplier. Like, he's He's the guy that you want to see, right? You want to be preventive in your medical care.

100%.

Worried well. And it wasn't— he wasn't— he couldn't— he wasn't doing it on his own. It wasn't happening. He was yelping from the rooftop. He was talking to all the academics. He was traveling around the world. He's worldwide known. Harvard cardiologist, lipidologist, double board certified, all that good stuff. That's great. That looks great on the wall. but it doesn't save lives. Talking to other doctors about what's going on, slowly they start to adopt that stuff, and when the insurance companies come around, and then the pharmaceutical companies come around, and they stop— That's a huge issue. The special interests and the lobbyists all get around, which takes forever. But you partner that with someone who understands how to connect with people, how to build a business, how to make it profitable, how to get investors to come in, in order to get that message out, all of a sudden you put a megaphone on Dr. Osborne's voice, right? And it gets out to the people that matter because at the end of the day, it's the everyday JD, Yvette, JB in the world who are working 8, 10, 12, 15 hours a day, who come home, they're tired at the end of the day, they've got kids running around or whatever they're doing. It's us that makes the change.

Yeah.

We drive the change. We're the consumer, right? Do you remember 25, 30 years ago, maybe 30 years ago now, you never saw a commercial on TV for pharmaceuticals?

Oh no, it was illegal.

It was illegal, right? Or perceived illegal. It was perceived illegal. The reason why it's perceived illegal, and I know because I was in the middle of that, I was part of the very first, like, AstraZeneca Prilosec.

No kidding.

Do you remember Prozac, the purple pill?

Yeah.

Well, I was working for AstraZeneca at the time.

No kidding.

Yes, in Westborough, Massachusetts, at the pyramid. And I remember having conversations about, why don't we just go in direct to the consumer? Because the doctors, they do off-label, or you've got to— they were always pitching to get a trip to the Bahamas for playing golf, or go swordfishing, or whatever it was. So they were spending crazy amount of money, the company, the pharmaceutical companies, spending crazy amounts of money trying to get doctors to prescribe their drugs, convincing them, all this stuff. I said, skip that. Have the patient come and ask the doctor about this drug. That was the beginning.

So you started it?

I was one of the guys who started that, yeah, back in the day.

I was gonna ask a question like, you guys seem hesitant to kind of like go after Big Pharma here. That's why. You are Big Pharma.

He's a plant. I was a lonely program manager engineer back in the day. I was young back then, but I was full of piss and vinegar.

Sure.

And I was wearing that entrepreneurial hat. Why aren't we talking to the customer? Right?

Yeah.

So if you take that same perspective, let's bring this to the customer.

Yeah.

Right. And because we are and we can make the change.

Oh, I like that. I like that correlation. I have one quick question. Whoever wants to answer it.

Sorry, I'm talking a lot.

No, because I want to dive deeper on something you just talked about. How close were you? Like, is there a sense of— did you have that discussion with the amount of plaque that you had and the look that your neighbor saw you have?

And like, oh, yeah, no, he didn't have any significant blockages.

So he was—

and that little whatever. Yeah, nothing.

Right. You can say it's the widowmaker. The widowmaker. Yeah.

He doesn't like that term.

He doesn't like to use that term because it's not scientific.

Well, it's not scientific. And the other thing is, you know, heart disease, right? Strokes and heart attacks kill just as many women as guys.

Sure.

Sure. So if I find a plaque in your LAD or left main, In a woman, it'd be a widower maker, so it's sexist.

This is very woke.

Why are you so woke?

Don't forget, yeah, I guess fatty liver is gone because of wokeness, and widow— widowmaker is gone because I like widowmakers.

Let's just start a new trend, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is it okay to say couch, or is there something wrong with that?

It's sofa. It's, um, we're gonna couch that.

I like that. Are we in a window? You talked about the ability to scale this, get insurance companies on board. My mind, as you were talking, I was like, I wonder if insurance companies will eventually pay for this. Then you said something and you kind of were like talking through thoughts that I had. So I'm gonna further past all of it and ask, are we in a window? So we've got this unique movement, let's say people agree with it, people don't agree with it. Under the Trump administration, recently confirmed NIH director being Bobby Kennedy with the whole MAHA movement, right? Make America Healthy Again.

Yes.

This, this sort of thing feels like Clear Cardio, what you do with Clear Cardio, preventative heart, like, you know, getting ahead of it. It feels like you've got a 2 to 4 year window right now in which with the right connections and the right interactions and the right presentation and everything, and you're, you've already hit a point client size, I believe, where you have proof of concept. You know, you're not, you're not too early stage.

No, no.

Yeah.

So are we in a window where Yeah, it takes a lot, but if it were 4 years ago or 4 years from now, it takes a lot more than maybe it does right now. Is that a fair question to ask you?

You know, Jamie, that is so insightful, and the reason why it's insightful is because, as an entrepreneur over the years, right, I've learned that it's not just about— it's— I don't want to scream statistics out there because I really don't know. I have a sense as most entrepreneurs do over the years, of that timing is more important—

Oh yeah.

Than the product.

Yeah.

Because if people aren't ready to pull and you're pushing and pushing, that's really expensive and you'll miss the mark. And entrepreneurs are pretty smart people and venture capitalists and and private equity and the people that invest in these companies that allow these things to grow, to get it out to the masses, to lower the cost so that it's more affordable. All that ecosystem is necessary. If the timing isn't there, the pull isn't there, you're wasting your time.

Hmm.

More great companies and great products have gone out of business and defunct because it wasn't timing. Either there wasn't a market or there wasn't a— you know, you got to have a place to sell your product, right? And so Yes, timing is key. This is absolutely the window.

Yeah.

And why? We have the tech. We have people that are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and I'm gonna say it, these insurance companies, which are not healthcare companies, because they don't provide healthcare, they are— and we had a podcast about this on the Kokari Podcast, a little plug there.

It's called something different. What's the podcast called?

It's called the Clear Cardio Prevention is Power podcast.

Prevention is Power. Sorry, continue.

And prevention is key. Yeah. And so, you know, to that, we are in a perfect window now where people are tired of those insurance companies saying, no, you can't take the money that you pay us every day, either directly or through your employer or whatever, and use it the way you want. We're going to decide for you how you spend that money. People are tired of that, okay? I mean, it's a horrific thing that happened when the CEO of UnitedHealthcare was gunned down on the street. That should never happen.

Never happen, agreed.

But the aftereffect was polarizing. If you look at social media, how it came back, right? And I think everybody understands what I mean by polarizing, right?

Sure, sure.

Okay, so, but now that you've got this awareness, you've got this new fantastic regime, I don't know what you want to say, these great people who care about this country.

Yeah.

Trump and, and Elon and, and, you know, RFK Jr. and all of these folks who care, really care, and they're digging deep, right? They— this, this total movement where people are tired of the insurance game, they, they're tired of being sick and tired, they want to take control of their health, they know they can do that now. and with the support of the new folks in D.C., I think we're gonna see a heyday in this type of preventive care, concierge medicine in general, and the more people engage in this, the lower costs it will get.

Is there, by the way, I think you voted for Trump.

Sorry, I just rambled on.

I think you voted for Trump.

Do you think so?

Yes, yeah.

Is there a, for you right now, is there, like, what's the connection point, or is it already established? Like, is the link established for something like this to get the attention of somebody like him, or is there—

is there—

are there breaks in that chain at this point? Like, in other words, if you were to make a plea to whoever's watching, yeah, is there a connection? Is there one person? Who's the person? Yes, that you need.

So it's RFK Jr.

Oh, you're like directly to him?

Yes.

Get him.

And so RFK Jr., I'm talking to you right now.

Hopefully he's watching.

Yeah, I know he's probably watching. But, uh, no, but seriously, all kidding aside, It is absolutely, absolutely necessary. In fact, in fact, and I won't go into a lot of detail, you and I talk about this quite a bit. The reason why our entire healthcare system, insurance companies, things like that, is pay for services, there's a very specific reason when that happened in this country and why it happened, and it's not pretty. And that's a whole other podcast.

Can you bullet it?

It's very controversial, so we'll talk about it.

Hit the link below for circardio.com. Prevention is power. Yep.

But that said, it is fee-for-services. Yeah, right. You don't want to go down that road, okay? That is reactive. And anybody who's an entrepreneur out there, reactiveness is the most expensive, time-consuming, and biggest cause of failure of any project company out there or any venture. You want to be proactive, prevention. If you look at Look at most European countries, Portugal, Spain, Italy, France. They are very, very proactive, prevention. They reward prevention. They actually punish you for being reactive, like last minute. Why did you wait till the last minute? Why did you do things? In the United States, it's the exact opposite.

True.

Why?

Cardiovascular care, right?

I'm waiting for you to say it.

Cardiovascular care is half a trillion dollars a year.

Holy shit.

And, you know, and after a few years, we're talking real money. It is the leading driver of healthcare costs in the US. Yeah, 100%. Right. I mean, we talk about, yes, it kills more people than the next 7 causes of death combined, including cancer. But it's also, by the way, not shockingly, I guess, the leading driver of costs, $500 billion dollars a year. And so when you imagine we're doing 10 million, 20 million $500 to $5,000 stress tests a year that are useless, I will tell you, you heard that from a cardiologist. When we're doing $20,000 invasive diagnostic heart cath where we see— get much better data for 5% of the cost with a cardiac CT. And the heart cath procedure goes back over 60 years ago. It's barely changed since it was accidentally invented. You can see where the costs are ungodly, and yet these are the wrong tests. They need to be retired. They should be legacy tests, right? It's just crazy.

It's a great point. Jamie, ask me how much it costs for something, to meet with Dr. Osborne, and as a Clear Cardio patient.

Oh yeah, go at it.

for, for the following thing. For all of that blood work that we do, and we talk about the blood work, it's extensive. And not just walking in and to Quest, and not that there's anything wrong with Quest, but, you know, it's a very comprehensive— I mean, Lp, right?

And, and very, very highly selected and curated.

Genetic markers and all this stuff, things that matter to you physically, you know, physically about, you know, Cholesterol, you know, how do you process cholesterol, all those things. So that full workup, then you come in personally, you meet with us, VIP concierge, you're not waiting in line, you're not filling out paperwork, you're in, we greet you, we take you in. You did it this morning.

15 minutes.

15 minutes, you're in.

From the time I entered to the time I left, 15 minutes.

Right.

Yeah, maybe 20.

Yeah, all that imaging, and then on top of that, all of the AI analysis, all the reports, and then sitting down with Dr. Osborne and having a, Exactly. And having a 1-hour discussion where you're being diagnosed, and then there's a treatment plan, assuming that you have— need a treatment plan, right, on that. And then this full concierge service for your cardiovascular needs for an entire year.

Right.

For an entire year.

Yeah.

Okay. Now, we do some additional things like exercise and diet. We have support and things like that. So if you choose to do that, as a bolt-on, it's about $8K for the whole year. If you don't choose to do that and you just do what the prior thing that I mentioned, that's about $6K for the year.

Yeah.

Yeah. That is nothing.

I know.

Here's the paradox, right? So heart disease, number one killer, number one cost driver. Half of people, their first symptom of heart disease is a heart attack or death. So what's amazing is we have a disease that can be detected with imaging for 20 to 30 years before you ever get in trouble.

Right.

We have incredibly effective, proven tools, cholesterol drugs and many others, actually, an incredible array of highly effective and clinically proven tools that stop and reverse plaque. And of course, then downstream prevent the strokes, the heart attacks, the stents, balloons, and surgery. But for insurance, You know what insurance will do? They will pay for your cardiac CT after your event.

Yeah.

So we basically sacrificed half of the men, half the women, right? They die, they get a toe tag. Then those that happen to survive, they get stents, balloons, bypass surgery, $50,000, $70,000 worth of stents, $150,000 bypass surgery. Then we give them all the right drugs and stuff, 20 to 30 years too late. or 20, 30 years after the disease has started. But we've already sacrificed half the population because their first symptom was they died of the disease as their first symptom. Insurance does not pay if you have no symptoms.

What's crazy, I live in what many would consider to be a third world country. And when I did these stress tests and everything, I walked into the cardiologist.

Democrats were trying to get rid of those tests.

That's fair. But I walked into the cardiologist. I didn't go to my primary and then get a referral and then whatever. And it's— and showed my insurance card at the end, and it's paid for, right? In another country, to your point, in Europe, preventative, right? Is, you know, and there's still a Western medicine, like, you know, like cholesterol's high, do you want a statin? Like, no, I don't want to. I mean, there's definitely the mindset there still, like, kind of around the world. But, but that was jarring to me, you know? Like, I live in a very developed part of that country, but even still, like, you can do, you can go get hormone therapy, it's covered by insurance. You can do a lot of things there covered by insurance. And in the United States, the most—

Pay for services.

It's insane.

Yeah, we need to do a whole podcast on that.

I've agreed. What's the risk now? So the risk to this window. So you're in this window, you get the attention of the right people, and to your point, the world changes by going to the consumer, and the consumer demands the change, and whoever adopts this idea. Is this duplicatable now? Or does he need to be duplicated?

So yeah, so we have a system that is scalable.

You do?

Yes.

Okay, so this could be broad-scale adopted.

That's exactly what we're doing, actually.

Right now?

So I was out in Dubai last month, And Abu Dhabi and a few other places. So we are, we are, we are looking at that right now. We have a lot of people interested in because they see the value that this adds. And this is only going to get bigger. It's only going to get bigger because I can tell you right now, all the conversations I've had in D.C. with the folks that matter on the government side, they are going to start rewarding proactive measures.

That's good.

That those days of that reactiveness is cost too much money.

This administration is probably one of the most strikingly open, throw out an idea, throw the spaghetti on the wall, let's see if it sticks. Yeah, more so than any other administration I've had in my life. Yeah, same.

Agree.

So if any administration is gonna go, oh, let's hear the argument. Yeah, right. Tell me about this. Yeah, I think they are the most open to listening.

Yes.

And then obviously on the execution side, you know, yesterday was the first month that the Trump administration.

I know.

And no matter where you are in the political spectrum, you're going, holy moly, we've never seen this much happen.

Those are facts.

And this much transparency.

Those are facts. Like, you know, you could disagree with what he's doing. You could disagree with his policy, but you can't disagree with the pace of action.

That's right.

And you can't disagree with the— you mentioned about like willingness to hear.

Yeah.

Openness in the history of the country.

I mean, you can't argue with it. You cannot like it. You could say, you know, Elon's getting private information. You could do all that.

But the pace—

We need to doge Cardiology, right? Is that— wait a minute, is there— is that an offensive term in cardiology in some way, shape, or form?

To about 99% of my colleagues.

You know what, I would make it doggy, and we'll call it doggy style cardiology. Cardiology—

you went down that road fast.

Doggy style, that's what I like.

Yeah, well, I think he means the healthcare industry in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need to doge the healthcare industry. It's coming, it's coming.

This this podcast will be—

that sounds like an EKG thing.

Yeah. Um, all right, so it's ready for wide-scale adoption. It's, it's all set. To your point about pricing, and what I'll do, I'll put a link down below. I think, I think there's a coupon code. I'll put it all down below. So whatever the price is, it shakes out. But yeah, when I heard the price, um, somebody said to me like, oh, is that a lot? And I'm like, well, let's again, let's, let's break it down. $8,000 for me to know whether or not I have heart disease, which either prolongs—

To know definitively, 100%, without a doubt, a shade of doubt.

To the millimeter.

And a year's worth of support, medications to take care of that, to reverse that.

So here you have a cardiologist lipidologist telling you with an LDL of 209, you don't need drugs. Right, right, right, right, right.

Imagine that. Imagine that. 209. LDL, 292— what do we say? 209 to 68. So what is that? That's a lot. Plus 70, 282, 277. 277 is my total cholesterol. And I am not walking out of here on a statin.

Right. That's right.

Because you don't need to be.

Isn't that crazy?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's cool.

That's going to blow minds.

It's really about the personalization of care, right? Because I'm not saying, oh, well, geez, other people with this kind of cholesterol, this happens to. Well, that's not Jamie. Yeah, right. Here I can say, no, this is you, and yes, your LDL's high, but it, it's barely sticking. But I'm like, and I don't care about cholesterol that doesn't stick, right?

But I'm like butter.

You're like Clinton in the '90s.

Tiptoe. Sorry, had to go down that road.

That's awesome.

I love that.

But no, that makes perfect sense. The personalized part, I've kind of walked past that a couple of times.

Because we're actually saying have disease, don't have disease, right? We, for years in the world of cardiology, Who we treat, not treat. We'd go, well, you kind of sort of look like someone who has disease, right?

It's a trophic teller.

You're like when you walked in and met my colleague Dr. Kasuri, and he says, "I need to see you," right?

Holy!

I mean, when a cardiologist said that, you're going to listen, I hope, right?

Yeah. But but I went right home and went to bed. I didn't know.

You didn't know.

Yeah.

You get in the scanner.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

We need to treat your cholesterol.

Yeah. It's yeah.

It's it's happening.

Yeah.

And then you. Yeah, you got a tiny little bit of plaque there. It's okay, right? Keep doing what you're doing.

And here's the proof though. This is important. Yes, I needed to be on a statin. And yes, and I— because it was specific to me, they knew me, right? Because not all widgets are gidgets and all gidgets are nidgets, right? Kind of thing. Yeah, but it was— it was for me, it was, okay, here's the statin. I was well tolerated. I went heavy at it and I went back into the scanner. And guess what? I have no more red lava.

Gone.

In my arteries.

Yeah.

So I've got a little bit of yellow.

And we didn't talk about GMV, but with the ability now to do this very accurate, precise, validated plaque measurement and quantification, when you come back 3 years ago, we'll be able to do a compare function and literally go whole heart per vessel per segment. Is it becoming calcified? the end-of-the-road plaque, the non-active plaque, how much lava there is, has the lava gone down? What we'll see generally is, of course, you know, our goal is that we see less lava and more calcified plaque.

Right.

Right?

Right.

But we'll be able to mic that out down to a 10th of a cubic millimeter 3 years from now when we put you back in the scanner, and we'll know.

That's one of the things, right? So we talk about, you know, the price and what you get for the price in my mind, yeah, all the benefits you talked about, that's great. Those are the features. But it's the outcome, right? The outcome is I have peace of mind and/or I have a treatment plan to not die of a heart attack. But the ability to see things that nothing else can see. So I can go get all the most expensive tests that are not this, but to your point, I won't be able, like the plaque that we saw wouldn't be visible in any other way. Like I would be told—

So you had all this testing and they said, you look great.

Right, right, right, yeah. Yeah.

They had no idea.

So I know exactly where it is. I know it's like a little polyp, like you talked about in the colon. Like there's a small little polyp and we'll watch it. And then yeah, in 3 years I'll come back and take a look and see what's what. So to me it's a no-brainer.

And that whole— Meantime, have your 4 eggs a day and ribeyes.

That's what I do. Well, that's the other part, right? Like I've always been a heavy meat guy. Like I don't, I haven't been like dedicated carnivore all my life, but I've gone through months and I'm in one right now where that's all I do. 4 eggs for breakfast, ribeye for lunch, ribeye for dinner. Nothing else. No vegetables, no oatmeal, no fiber, nothing. So I honestly expected, 'cause when I'm not on that, you know what I'm doing? I'm eating meat, eggs, all of that, and then cake.

And you know, some of that sweet tea.

Some tequila.

Oh, I like cake. Love sweets.

So that's the tequila on date night, right? A tequila Old Fashioned is my drink, right?

Oh boy. I love tequila.

But got rid of all of it in the, in the, recently, and I've done it before. So I am, at least when you take the trough method, like you were talking about of like, well, if you, if you have this cholesterol, whatever, I would be a candidate for, oh my God, you're gonna die. It's gonna be hard. I remember when I announced this the first time, I put it on social media, like, going carnivore. People that are in this profession that are cardiac nurses or whatever were like, I'm in this, you are going to die. Don't do this. You're killing yourself.

Well, Jamie, I'm gonna tell you, you are gonna die, but it won't be from heart disease.

Right, exactly, exactly right.

I cannot make you immortal. Yeah, that's the next step.

You're not gonna have a heart attack or stroke.

Right, the other part that I got was kind of an all clear, I'll say, on bone density, on on my liver, on my lungs, on, you know, seeing other things.

No MASH.

No, yeah, that.

Yeah.

No fatty liver.

Yeah, exactly.

I didn't have any of these other things, which was, again, not the point, clear cardio, but what a nice little side effect. I got kind of my torso looked at as well. Yeah. And I was—

Your bone density, right?

That's a really good point.

We can look at your liver. Do you have fatty liver? That's MASH we talked about. We get all that data. I love to, I mean, the cardiovascular data is so cool and impressive in the AI, but I think we forget we get all that other stuff inside your chest. There's a lot of good stuff in there, right, that we want to know about. Your esophagus, your aorta, your lungs, your stomach, your spleen, your liver. You know, we could look at your bone density, your spine. That's, that's all the free data.

By the way, that's all part of the price.

Yeah, that's all free.

I'm just saying.

Right.

No, it's just It's just, it's the extra data.

What do you call it?

Collateral.

Collateral awesomeness.

Collateral awesomeness. I was going to say collateral damage.

That wouldn't have been— awesomeness. Yeah, I tried to intervene there before you went down.

I'm obviously sold, so I'm glad I'm here and I did all of this. What am I leaving out? What are we not— what have we not talked about that you want to make sure you get out?

No, no, I think we covered it. I mean, it's, you know, the value is really there and it really comes down to, you know, do you want to know if you have heart disease or not? And if you do, the only place you're going to find that is right here at Clear Cardio. Come, come, come meet with us. Let us take care of you. You know, we will take very good care of you, and you will walk away knowing either— it's, it's binary. It's either 0 or 1.

Yeah.

Either you don't have it or you do.

Yeah.

And if you do, what severity it is and what degree, and here's how we treat you. And guess what? Dr. Osborne can treat you no matter how severe you are. We can, we can work through that.

So JD and I have had a little joke between the two of us for a while, and we need to put up a little sign that says lives saved every day.

Yes, right?

Every day, 100%, right?

I love it. Any other last words? Most educated guy usually gets the last word, so any other last words for you?

Just look under the hood. Yeah, that's it.

Just look under the hood. I'm leaving here feeling— going home feeling fresh. So I appreciate both of you, honestly. Thank you for what you've done.

Yeah.

Thank you for the consultation, for all you're doing as well. And it's been great. So, guys, I appreciate you having me here.

Thanks for having us on.

It's been fantastic. Thank you. Thank you, Jamie.

Thank you.