Easiest Way to Make $30,000 Per Month in Insurance | Ep3

So you quit straight up, you walked away from nursing before you even sold anything?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I lost like all of my friends except for one. My first. Hey, what up, y'all?

John Wetmore here with another episode of Insurance Insiders Podcast. I have my friend Caitlin Blackburn here. Appreciate you getting on, girl.

Thank you. Thank you.

You got it. So owner of Diligence Agencies. And, uh, is it Phoenix? I don't know if it's Phoenix proper, but you're out there somewhere.

And I love Phoenix, but we— I don't live there. I live in California.

You're in Cali? I know you're out west. Yes, maybe, maybe you were in— you might have been in Phoenix last time we— last time we spoke.

I'm in Phoenix twice a month. I might as well just live there full time.

Yeah, that's why I thought you lived there. I didn't know that. Yeah, I remember this actually. You told me Cali last time we talked. I did this when we spoke last because I see you in Phoenix on social all the time.

Yeah, it's one of my favorite places to go. So yeah, one day maybe I'll live there. We'll see.

Yeah, I love it. I know there's a lot of people live there, obviously, that we're connected to. Yeah. Um, but yeah, killing it in the insurance space. Sells a shit ton of insurance. Team— team's doing massive volume. Um, one of the best trainers I've seen in the industry. It's funny, you can tell when some people like train whether they actually do this or they just kind of like got lucky.

You're like, did you actually sell or did you just build a big team?

Correct. Yeah. And it's, it's funny. And how did you build that big team? It's very, very curious sometimes. But I've seen you for a while now, but I would love for you to share with them a little bit of maybe like how you got in, into insurance. Um, and we'll go from there. I have a lot of questions for you that I'm intrigued by, but I would love to hear the backstory because I actually don't know. I have no idea how you got in. I don't remember.

Yeah, so it was, um, about 3 years ago now, um, that I've been in the industry and I was a nurse before. Um, I was scrolling through Instagram one day. I remember I was at the gym. I was just kind of thinking about like different opportunities cuz I felt like where I was at in the hospital was just always gonna be a capped income. I wasn't building anything for myself and the biggest reason was I wasn't seeing my daughter, um, the way that I wanted to. you know, as a single mom, I was like, I just cannot imagine doing this forever and not being able to see her. So, um, I actually got a message on Instagram, um, talking about some sales position and I had looked at the ad and I reached out and then, um, got a phone call and Bowen Sweeney had messaged or had called me and kind of just explained the opportunity. And I was like, okay, like at first I was like, there's no way that this is actually real, but I don't have anything to lose. So I went all in with it. Um, I actually was studying for my exam while I was still working and then, um, passed that exam, quit my job, and went all in. And that was like extremely crazy to most people that you just quit your career and go into something where you have no idea whether or not you're going to be successful. But it pushed me up against the wall, you know, I had to make it work. And to be honest, I didn't know what I was getting myself into. So when I first started, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like really hard. Like, this is way harder than I thought it was going to be. But it put me in the mindset of obviously like, I'm going to make this work no matter what and to have fun with it. So, you know, starting in homes was really, really just focused on sales. And then from there, you know, it really allowed me to build a big business just because I was doing the work myself. I feel like when people are doing the work, people notice that and they want to work with people that you know, they can respect that do lead from the front. So I always remembered that. That's the story though. Um, and then fast forward 3 years now, um, you know, we do work really hard, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Were you like working night, like crazy shifts as a nurse?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I was working night shifts. So, um, yeah, they were brutal. Um, and I just remember like the people that I was working with too, and like people that have been there for so long just unhappy with their positions there. And I was like, you know, that's not gonna be me. Like, I'm not gonna be this person that works in a hospital for the rest of my life, even though that was what I like had aspired to do. I was like, that's just not going to be me. I don't want to do this. Um, and I didn't— at first I didn't really know this was like as much of an entrepreneur position as it is. Yeah. So I thought that it was going to be a lot more structured, like maybe like more like a job. And I just went all in with it. And then, you know, I actually like the concept of entrepreneurship. I think that I'm better as an entrepreneur than I am as an employee. Um, I, I don't really like to listen to people telling me what to do. I kind of like to do my thing. And I also am extremely driven, so I want to be paid what I'm worth. So if I'm working, you know, 80, 90, 100 hours a week, whatever you want to call it, I want to be paid that. You know, I don't want to have to, you know, have a cap on my income. So I always knew that, but this is way more entrepreneurship than I had originally thought. But hey, you know, sometimes your personality just matches up with it.

That's true, that's true. Did you know that for a long time, or just like— meaning, I was— I had a similar realization. I worked in warehouses for a while when I was in my early 20s, and I remember seeing the guys that had been there for 10, 15, 20 years and They were like miserable and sore and hated, like same thing. And then I got into accounting right before this and like anyone I was around, the top like accountant in the building was making like $70 grand, you know what I mean? It was like, and hate, same thing, hated what they did, but it was, they got their 2 weeks off a year and their little baby Raisy. And I was like, nah, I can't. So my question to you is like, did you always know you wanted to do that? Or it was like the nursing was like. Oh shit, I don't like this.

I think I didn't always know I wanted to do it. The nursing kind of pushed me over the edge. And then also when I found myself just intrigued about other opportunities, I just was like, well, this nursing may not be like the end game for me, so I wanna look into other things. And at first, when I first started, like it was really hard for me. Like I had like massive phone anxiety. Like I was always getting hung up on, like I, was not good at the sales aspect of it, but it pushed me to be better. And, you know, like I always was thinking, like in the back of your mind, like you want to be a better person and you want to develop yourself. And this, this career and this type of path really does that. So to answer that question, no, I didn't really notice that. But once I got into it, I was like, okay, like, you know, you see the small wins, like as you're going through getting your teeth kicked in, you know, you see the small wins that come out of it and you're like, yeah, like, okay, I am, you know, I'm, I'm gonna persevere through this and I'm gonna make it work. So that still excites me to this day, you know. Um, you know, as a business owner, you know, there's always stuff that you gotta handle. There's always going to be adversity that hits and it doesn't just go away. You just get better at handling it and you get better along the process. So I, I still get excited about that kind of stuff, but I'm definitely an entrepreneur at heart.

I love it. How old is your daughter now?

She's 6 now.

Cool. How long were you a nurse?

I was a nurse for about a year and a half.

Okay, so like right after she was born, basically?

Shortly after? Yeah, yeah, shortly after.

Yeah, cool. So how's, um, how, how did that work in— so you quit straight up? You walked away from your nursing before you even sold anything?

Yeah, it was during COVID Um, so the funny thing about that is that I had got COVID and then obviously you weren't allowed in the hospital unless you were like testing like negative for it. So when I went back, um, they were like, you're still negative, so you gotta take 10 more day, or you're still positive, you gotta take 10 more days. And then I was like, yeah, okay, this is like my out. Like that's what I was thinking in my head. I was like, okay, like I'm just not gonna go back. Like I'm gonna figure out what this new opportunity is for me. And then I let them know and I was like, this is gonna be a better option all the way around. And yeah, I mean, I was pretty new there still at the hospital, so I feel like it was pretty easy to replace me.

Yeah. Were you, was like your family giving you crap for leaving that and going into insurance? People around you?

Oh yeah. I'm pretty sure I lost like all of my friends except for one when I first started. All of them were like, they just didn't understand what I was doing. Still to this day, there's a lot of people that don't understand me, but especially when I first started, they were like, okay, you are crazy for doing this for one. And then also I never see you. So yeah, I have questions. I remember people asking me or saying like, yeah, well, you've been gone for like 3 months, so I have questions for you. And I was like, okay, Yeah, I'm doing this. I'm, I'm building my own business now, so it's gonna take a lot out of me for the first, you know, 1, 2, 3 years, whatever it takes. And, you know, I have one friend that was my college friend and she always supported me, and I was like, okay, that's the true homie. Like, you know, whatever, they're just not happy for you, which is okay. Um, they're on their own journey. But yeah, everyone thought I was extremely crazy, that's for sure. And I had a lot of student loans as well, so luckily with this type of industry that we're in, I've been able to get, get those all the way down. But when I first started, it was like, oh yikes, I have a lot.

Yeah, they, hey, they watch your social. You live a good life.

Yeah, that's good, man.

You get to take care of that little girl. It's neat to watch. So starting out, you said you got your teeth kicked in. So you're only— I assume you've never done— maybe not never, but have you ever done field sales? All telesales?

No, I did field sales.

Yeah.

Um, I started all field. So, um, funny, funny thing about that is that it was a really hard transition for me to go into virtual. I didn't want to go virtual. Um, it was like I had done all field and then people were starting to do more virtual and there was like trainings going out about how to sell virtually and I was really hesitant to it. Like I was just stuck in my own ways. And I think that the biggest thing that happened to me, there was like a mindset shift at one point where Um, I was growing, but I wasn't growing at the rate where I could actually develop my team. And that was what really like pushed me out of the field to go into virtual instead. Of course, there was a learning curve there, you know, when I first started going, um, virtual compared to being in the home. But you have to realize that at one point, like, virtual is a lot more convenient for being able to build a business at the same time because If you're on Zoom teaching or training, like there can be, you know, 60, 70, even 100 people watching you do one thing. But when you're going in the house, like the max is one person. You can't just be taking a bunch of people in home with you. But I do think that the in-home sales really helped me get the foundation that I needed because then once I transitioned over to virtual, I was like, okay, like I know who we're speaking with because I've sat with all these people. You know, like, I know the type of clientele that we're working with, so it's like, it shouldn't be super intimidating. Like, they're just looking for help. And, you know, realistically, like, if anybody does have some phone anxiety, like, you just have to take yourself out of it and realize that this is just somebody that's looking for help. And, you know, don't worry about you, worry about them.

What did that look like at the beginning? The phone anxiety, getting your teeth kicked in, as you said. What was that?

Oh yeah, I'd hang up on people when they'd answer and I'd have my script there and I didn't know what to say or I got nervous. I would be like, oh, thanks for— I would say thanks for answering. Ridiculous. And then I wouldn't know what to say and then I get so nervous that I just hang up. So yeah. And then I was like, okay, you got to figure this out. And obviously I had to put my emotions to the side and be like, there are going to be people that are not going to be happy be that I'm calling them. There's going to be people that are gonna hang up on me, and I'm gonna have to be okay with that. So I put my emotions to the side and just decided that I was going to continue to just persevere through it. And when I talk about like the getting your teeth kicked in, like, that's a lot of business just in general, but then the small wins are what make it worth it. So it's like the small wins are booking an appointment, or the small wins are going to a house and being able to protect a family. Like that is what makes it all worth it. And a lot of people, I feel like they just can't like wrap their mind around it. It's like, it's super worth it when you actually can experience the wins throughout your business as well. But yeah, there was extremely, um, a huge learning curve for me at the beginning.

Did it take a while? How long, like how long did it take? And how do you get, how do you get to the— obviously the thought process you have now is just a lot of time, but they're like switch, you know what I mean? Like how— I'm curious how long it took for that and What made it change for you?

Well, I would say, I mean, I did like around $30,000 my first month, so that was pretty good. Holy shit. Yeah, that was pretty good. I had a really good week and I understood the investment of the business. That can hold a lot of people back where they don't understand the investment of it, but you have to invest in your business to make money. And if you're not investing in your business, then you're not believing in yourself. And I always believed in myself. I was like, you know, if I put this money down, I'm gonna make it work, you know, I'm gonna figure out a way to make it work. So, um, I, I would say that that first month, I mean, $30K was a lot, but at the same time, I was working a lot. So it's like, I see a lot of new agents come in and they're kind of just like doodling and twiddling their thumbs half the time. And it's like, that's not what I was doing. Like, I was very, very, very diligent with my schedule my first month, especially because I needed to figure this out. And I worked all the time. So it was like, as far as like getting no-show to door knocking the leads, just because I had watched videos on people door knocking and I was like, okay, like I could do that, you know.

Yeah.

Um, and just working really hard. So that's why, I mean, like, I preach it to everybody, like, it's, it's always about the work ethic and how much you're actually putting into it versus the skill, because the skill was not there when I started. Um, and the skill probably didn't start coming until, I mean, close to the 6-month, you know. Yeah, like, I remember walking out of houses that I didn't protect their family because I didn't know what to do. And that was okay. And I— you have to realize that you're just learning, you know? And that is a feeling that, you know, when you walk out of a house because you just didn't know what to do, you're like, I'm never gonna do that again, you know? I'm gonna figure it out. Like, you're like, I'm not gonna lose these people, I'm gonna figure it out. And that's, that's my personality too. So it just came down to that. But there was a definitely a learning curve, but, um, if you outwork the learning curve you'll be fine.

So 3 years ago, when did you start? Like what month? Do you remember?

Um, April. I started late April.

Yeah, cool. So what'd you sell that year? Do you remember?

Um, $627,000. A lot. It was a good amount.

Yes, sir. A little bit more than nursing paid.

Yeah, a whole lot more.

Good for you. Were you, uh, were you building right away too?

Not actively, but I had a lot of warm market, so I wasn't actively like I am now. Like now I enjoy having conversations with people over the phone about the opportunity. I definitely will reach out to them or they'll reach out to me and I am more actively building because we have a really good foundation. But when I first started, I was— I'd take phone calls of like people that I knew. I'd let them know about the opportunity and then I kind of just threw them into the fire because I didn't have a structure in place at the time either. I didn't really know what I was doing. I was just figuring it out. So I was like, all right, come join me. You know, we can go knock doors together, we can go dial together and we can figure this out. So a lot of warm market, but I wasn't growing at like the rate that we are now. And just because I wasn't taking the recruiting side seriously until about a year and a half ago.

Okay. So $620K, what'd you sell second year?

Second year was like $750K. $780,000 or something like that. And then the third year was $940,000.

Good for you.

Yeah.

So, boss talk.

There's always—

how do you, how do you deal with them? Like, meaning you, you recruit enough that some people can't even wrap their head around making $100,000. You know what I mean? They lose their mind and they're impatient. They're not worth— like, how do you like, talk to that person. How do you, how do you deal with that now?

It really just comes down to it's not about the money in your bank account. It comes down to a stronger why. Like, you have to really have other reasons why you're doing this. And if you don't have that, you need to either find it or you're probably going to burn out at one point. Like, that, that is kind of the, the honest truth of how I speak to those people, is that if you get complacent in this business because you don't know why you're doing it. You don't know why you're here. You don't know what your end goal is, and you don't know— you're not finding the joy in the little things that this business brings. Because I find joy still, even though I don't need to sell insurance. I still find joy in helping somebody with a policy. I still find joy watching new agents come in and succeed. I still find joy going to lock-ins, doing events, speaking to people. A lot of people, like, if they get complacent, then it's really hard for them to keep going because there's always going to be the, the stuff that we have to deal with, you know. And if you don't have a stronger why, then it can be really, like, taxing on you, and you're just not going to be able to persevere through all of it. But I am really big on that. I want everybody to find their why, whether it's their children, whether it's another industry that they want to be in at one point, whether it's real estate, whether it's, you know, just generational wealth in general, like whatever that case may be, like you have to realize why you're waking up and doing this day in and day out, you know.

How do you deal with those ones like that say they have their why, they know they want to do it, they say they're tired of being broke, and they just still don't put in the work, you know what I mean? They're still negative, they're still like— how do you deal with that? Because we all get I'm just curious your perspective. How do you literally deal with those people?

Well, sometimes I have a really hard conversation with them and try to get down to the root of the issue, like the root of their laziness or the root of their complacency, whatever the case may be. And other times I just let them, you know, let them figure it out because the best thing that you can do is continue growing yourself and continue growing the people that actually want it. And you'll be surprised how many people come back around because they're like, okay, well, wow, now Sarah's doing this and Kimberly's doing this. Why couldn't I have done that? So sometimes just leaving them be at one point is really what you have to do just because you can't put your energy into something that is not— I mean, you can't want more for them than they want it for themselves. And I say that all the time. I always say to agents that say they want to, you know, issue pay $30K and they want to recruit 20 agents that month, like, I'll say, well, you know, you want to be great and you can be great, but are you doing the things that you can— that— are you doing the things that you need to be doing to be great? And a lot of the times they, you know, they get taken back by it because they know that they're not. You know, we can all— we can all hold ourselves accountable. You know, I know when I'm not my best self. I know that, and I'm very self-aware, and I feel like the majority of entrepreneurs are very self-aware. But complacency will be the death of your business if you allow it to be. You can't just get paid— paid on Monday and decide to take the whole week off because you're— you feel like you're like good, you know? It's like, no, that's not the point of this. Like, it's about building, and it's about helping other people get to the spot where you're at. And that's my favorite part of the business. So if they don't have it in them, you can't really like make them have it in them. Um, you just want to move on to the next because there are other people out there like you and I that want something like this, and they don't even know about it because we haven't done a good enough job at like showing the opportunity to everybody, you know.

So, so many people over the years kind of linger with the negative, whiny, needy agent and just think they can like revive them all.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm like, it's hard to watch someone, like I call it like watch them drown in a sense. Like it can be hard to move on from someone, but I always reasoned it with like, if you're not doing what it takes for you to succeed and I'm always trying to like save you from drowning, I'm losing spending time with people over here that really do want it, you know what I mean? The minute I realized that, I was like, oh dang, I'll actually like watch you drown in a second now that I know you're, you're, you're, you're preventing someone else from having success that really wants it, and you're draining my mental capacity and ability to deal with other people. When that clicked for me, I was like, oh shit, this is a different game now.

No, for sure. Unfortunately, people have to think of it that way. Like, more people just have to, because I know that you can feel bad and you can feel like you're like emotionally responsible for their success, but like you're really not. And there's other people out there that really want it and they need your time and you can't. I mean, I sometimes I think to myself, I'm like, I am not a therapist, like, you know, like therapy, so I'm not really good at that. Like, I'm I'm here to guide you in the right direction, but I cannot do it for you. You know? And at that point, like, I would say the best advice that I could give to people that are, you know, struggling with that is like, allow that person to quit on themselves cuz they will, like, they're, they'll fire themselves eventually because you are not gonna be as present and you're not gonna save them every single time they get into a situation and. Sometimes when you enable people like that, it's almost hurting them because, you know, I wasn't enabled in this business and look how far I went. Yeah, you know, I figured it out.

Then they'll call the next guy and be like, my upline didn't support me, so I'm quitting. That's why I always, I always laugh at that one. I'm like, oh Lord, stop. Um, what, what size your team now? How, how big is your agency today?

1.4. Um, we, we range anywhere from like 1.4, 1.5, um, mil a month. We have about $15 million a year-ish.

Yeah.

And we have about 120 agents right now that are actively writing. We have more in the pipeline always coming in. But yeah, we're looking for growth. I mean, we're right at that really great spot to bring in more people to allow them to be successful. Because I feel like once you hit around the million mark, it starts to go up more because you just are able to continue to bring people in and duplicate the process. So it's exciting. It's like, definitely, um, a million was my goal, and now we're— the goal is 2 million, and then it's gonna be 3 million, and then it's gonna be where John Wetmore is at.

Except I'll be— I'm gonna keep— I'm trying to keep growing too. Like, I'm trying to let you catch me, just to be clear. Yeah, we're But it, funny enough, in some ways it's weird. In some ways it gets harder, and in some ways it gets easier because your role evolves, you know what I mean? But with you, and you're not the type that like recruited one person and that's why you're growing, like you're stacked wide. I mean, you got some, some crazy width and depth to your group. And my guess is at this stage you'll start, you probably have a couple other people really starting to stand out and go like, hey, I want to do what you do. You know what I mean? And then it starts to multiply because it's not just your efforts anymore. Yeah, you know, and that's, that's, that's when it becomes fun. Well, I got some of the right people in my corner. It was like, oh dang, we're building this together now. And I get credit more, way more than I deserve, but I'm like, yo, I wouldn't be here without the crew I got helping. There's no chance.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's fun to watch, watch what y'all are doing. Again, you can see some people structure, it's like, you know, they hire Bob, and Bob has 152 people, and you're like, I have 153 people. So you have one, you have one.

You're like, you don't have anything. I like the width of the team too. I, I think that it just allows me to have more personal relationships with more people. Like, if I'm recruiting them like directly, like, they, they expect to work with me, and so I want them to be direct to me unless they find another, um, you know, another agency within my hierarchy that they want to work with. Like, of course, like, you can go and work with them if you feel like you're you know, vibing with them. But I like the with. It helps, um, it helps us grow. And it is something where, you know, I've found quite a few individuals that have come in and like, they are like the backbone to the business. They do a lot of things that help us grow. And that's a really cool spot to be in, um, because sometimes you think you're never getting there. I don't know if you thought that, but I did.

Sometimes I still feel that.

I mean, I'm not gonna ever get there. Like, I'm gonna be doing this alone forever.

Yeah, I definitely— and mine didn't really start— mine was about the, the phase you're at is where some people really started to pop, you know. Then we were there in like 2018, and 2018 we were kind of flat. We were doing like between $800,000 and $1 million all year. But then '19, we went from that million, by the end we were doing $2.5 million. Like, we tripled in '19 because like Zach started recruiting a lot. We, you know, I mean, with Dom doing some stuff with other group doing, like there were some 5 or 6 groups that like I didn't have to get them out of bed every day and they were going to recruit whether or not I told them to or not. You mean they were just doing their own thing and I was starting to become more of a supportive role than a, you know, I mean, like having to teach them every little thing.

Yeah. And that's great. I mean, that's what I look forward to too, is like when the recruiting clicks for some other people because recruiting is fun too. So it's like once it clicks, it clicks. And that's exciting because then you see a bunch of your people start to take off as well.

Yeah, that's true. It is fun. Give them a few, like, I want to see two sides, and you can pick either one first, I don't care. Like sales things and/or building things, just like some principles you've learned, some strategies, some like real, like tangible stuff, you know what I mean? Not like just ver— like give them some stuff you do and pick one. I don't care which, you're great at both.

Well, I will say that with, um, sales and building, they go hand in hand. So it really comes down to, um, this is a mind game. So your mental toughness is extremely important. And if you can't control your mind, then it's going to be really hard to control your business and be able to grow it. So best advice when it comes to both sides of it is to, you know, have a positive outlook and be able to control your mind. You know, keep your mental toughness strong at all points of your business. You have to, um, when it comes to sales, I mean, like, realize that not everybody needs your help, and that's okay. That this is coming down to, we're looking for the people that actually need our help. And if you can build the value in the product, they, they requested it. Now all they need is somebody to build the value and make sure it's the right position for them. And with recruiting, it's the same exact thing. It's like we're talking to them, They have— they obviously have an open mind if they're on the phone with you. They obviously have something that's missing, and it's your job to figure out how you can help them get the things that they're missing when they're in this business. And that's your job. It's, it's developing, you know. That's how you build a really big business, when you can actually care about your people and develop them into who they want to be and help them, guide them to that direction, you know. So I would say, you know, mental toughness, and then also just really doing what's best and over-delivering to your clients and your agents. That's what you got to do.

It's funny, not a lot of people can relate both because they are literally identical in thought process as you start to learn it. You know, it's wild to— it's wild to discover that. It's like, oh dang, it's literally the same thing. Give them— so how do you, um, you said like identify problems and build value. How do you give a couple examples how you do that on sale? Sit with a client.

Yeah. So with a client, it really comes down to like figuring out where the money is gonna go, what they'd be leaving behind, and the pain point of what that looks like. Painting a picture for them, like what that looks like if they don't have this in place. Because it's not about selling it, it's about figuring out like how this product is going to be of value to them where they're gonna actually pay for it. You know, like that's really what it comes down to. It's like, this has to be valuable enough to them. So painting that picture, because most people have beneficiaries, most people have families, most people don't want to leave that burden behind. But if you don't paint the picture for the client, sometimes a random phone call can be kind of like, it's like a strange, weird thing to talk about. You know, like it happens to all of us. We all pass away. But if you're upfront with a client and are able to really paint that picture, it makes it a lot easier for them to connect with you and for them to actually feel like, okay, this is something that I do need to get in place because she's, she's— I mean, you make them make the decision on their own by painting the picture of what it looks like without it. And, you know, for sales, that's exactly what you got to do. You know, they are going to make the decision at the end of the day whether or not they feel like they need this product. But your job is to guide them. In the direction of knowing that this is going to be valuable to them and this is going to deliver exactly what they're looking for. Now with recruiting, it comes down to the same thing. I'm always asking questions about what's missing and why they're on the phone with me, because I want to know, why are you— what are you looking for out of an opportunity? Because I can be very transparent about this opportunity. I'm going to tell you how it is. I'll answer all your questions very directly, just like I do with my clients. Like, I'll answer your questions directly. However, I do want to know like, what is, what is the reason behind why you want to make a transition and what kind of opportunity you're actually looking for? Because if you're looking to work at a corporate 9 to 5 or have your handheld or, you know, have somebody constantly monitoring you, then this might not be the right fit for you. But if you're somebody that like has a drive and wants to create generational wealth, wants to, you know, have the freedom that we have in this business, then what are you willing to give up to go up? Really? You know, like, are you willing to put in the sacrifice and the time that it takes to make a business work here? And if you are, then I can guide you in that direction. So, you know, I think that that's really important and just being transparent and then also realizing on both sides that you don't need every recruit and you don't need every client. You don't, you actually don't want all of them because some, some clients you don't want on your books and some recruits and agents that you bring in, you just don't want them working with you. They're not gonna bring value to your business and you have to be aware of that. And you can find that just by asking questions. I mean, find those questions, find those pain points. And, um, that's where I have a lot of fun with both sides of the business. You know, there is a lot of recruiting calls that I take and I like build a relationship with these people before they even pass their exam. Like I know what their life is like. I know, um, I know what they're looking for out of the opportunity. And I, I mean, I like to have relationships with people. So like, that's probably why I succeed in this space is because relationships are important to me and I enjoy learning about other people. And like what they have going on. Like, I actually like that. So some people, like, I feel like they don't like that, so like it makes it harder for them. But I actually do. Like, I want to know, like, oh, what's your kids— what do your kids do? Like, what do they like? You know, like you build those relationships and you can really help them, um, you know, be in a position where you're at if they're willing to put in the work. And that's always what I say, like, this is a business where you get what you put into it. So the more you put into it, the more you're going to get out of it. If you don't put anything into this business, you're going to get zero out of it. So let's not waste each other's time here. Do you think that this is going to be something that you can be successful in? And do you feel like this is going to be something that's going to benefit your life? Because if you can't answer those, then it really wastes everybody's time.

My wife Steph, she would always tell people when they were mad about their recruiting results, and agents that were not doing what it took and not putting in the work and whining, all this stuff. We'd be at trainings and she'd be like, I mean, you are the one that hired someone who just wants to be an employee somewhere. Yeah, they didn't— you know what I mean? Like, so many people apply to this and they— all they want is a job. And I'm like, if all you want is a job, this is gonna— you're right, you are gonna struggle. Because when you just have a job and you just want a paycheck, when your boss ain't looking You're probably like on Facebook, you know, I mean, on Instagram, thinking around on the— and it's the same thing because I ain't going to be looking every day because I don't care. Not in a mean way. I don't care if you— you don't care. I certainly don't.

No, no, you, you can't. I mean, you can't, you can't want it more for them than they want it for themselves. But yeah, like if you hire people that do want to be in a corporate job, this is not it. Like it's not going to work well for them.

Definitely not. Yeah. I always learned like the things that you're mad about— this works for sales too, same concept— like, if you get these objections all the time and they— I want to think about it after I show pricing— and all this stuff you get, or people cancel, whatever, it's like you would go back to the beginning of the sales process and be like, what did I mess up to get all the way down this road and get a think about it and not see it coming?

Yep.

You know what I'm saying? Like, you did something wrong if you weren't expecting it. Like, oh dang, they told me I want to think about it. Who saw that coming? Like, they give you 942 clues, you just ignored them and didn't ask more questions. Yeah, it's the same with agents. Like, you get agents who are here and they're 6 months, 9 months, 12 months in and they're negative. You know, a few months in, they still don't know how to do basic stuff, where to get the trainings, or it was just basic stuff. I'm like, all right, go back to the interview and figure out where you messed that up. Like, how did you do an interview and bring someone on so poorly that 4 months in they still are confused on what it takes. Like, you did that bad a job, John.

Yeah, you're able to kind of catch it like at the beginning if you're aware of it. Um, and I mean, trust me, I'm the farthest thing from perfect, so I've made a lot of mistakes and I've been able to catch myself like throughout the business of like what I've done wrong, what I could improve on, like I'm very accountable. So like, if I see that I'm doing something wrong, I'm going to fix it. If I don't see it, then I'm just going to continue doing it. So it's like, I really have had to go back and figure out like exactly what I want to do and how I want to run my business. And with recruiting, it goes the same— it's the same thing, you know. You have to figure out who is going to be the best fit for you and the business, because like we've talked about multiple times, if you bring in the wrong people, you're taking time away from from the right people. So you don't want to do that. You want those right people to be in your corner. You want them to be successful if they want it themselves. And you're going to find a lot of people aren't good fits, but that's okay.

Yeah, I think it's funny, like a lot of people always ask, like, how do I do the perfect interview to hire like you do? And I'm like, you mess up like 3,000 of them first. Yeah, that's what I did. I did it so poorly so many times. That my inner— the first time Steph heard me interview, because she had a, she had a job, um, even when I was making stupid money. She's just a very independent person. She has one job her whole life, and she's running this like optical lab. And, uh, she just refused to quit. She just didn't want to stay home. And so I've tried to get her for a few years and whatever. It took like 4 years to get her to like finally stop working. Like 4 years after we could have You know, and I'm like, so finally one day she's, she's, she's, she's driving with me to the office and I'm doing recruiting calls in the car on the way to the office. And she hears for the very first time, hears me do a full, full recruiting call. And she's like elbowing me, like just trying to correct, like she's like nervous about it. Yeah. And at the end I get off. So my mentality with recruiting was like, I wasn't trying to hire the person. I was always trying to ask enough questions to find a reason to get off the phone, to not hire them. I was looking for that reason. Now I want to know now. I'd rather not find out in 2 months, 3 months. I want to know right now.

Yeah.

So I'm going through questions just through experience of people who have done stupid things and things I didn't like and things that frustrate me. And that becomes my interview style. And at the end she goes, dude, it sounds like you were— what's the word she used? She, uh, she goes, it sounds like you were interrogating him. I was like, I was. That's exactly what I was doing, because if I choose to work with this person, he's going to take time away from you, Maddox, and the other kids, you know what I'm saying? So I have to make sure it's a good fit, otherwise I'm out. I was, I was definitely not trying to hire that guy. I was trying to find a reason to not hire him. And she was like, what? It's so counter because she comes from a very corporate world where you just hire someone to push the button to make the glasses work, you know what I mean? It's just a very different style. That's hard for people to learn that.

Yeah, this is just a different environment. I mean, it definitely is like if you bring somebody into the business and they take up your time, they're taking away— and if they're not, if they're not being respectful of it and they're not being successful, then it's taken away from your family too. And you know, that's not, that's not okay. So I, I like that style. I like that you're trying to figure out what it is that like would make me not hire you, because if I can't find anything, that's a really good sign.

100%. What's been the— man, what's been the hardest part of this business for you?

Hardest part of this business, um, the downs of it where you're not growing, where you feel frustrated because you feel like you're either— your personal sales are not the way that you want them to be, you know, you're falling into, um, issues with your personal sales, you're falling into issues with your recruiting, you feel like you're just not being able to get past that hump. So anytime I see numbers that just stay stagnant for a couple months, I know that we're doing something wrong, and that is the hardest part for me. Um, I like to see the growth Um, and I like to see consistent growth, so people consistently coming in and winning. So I guess I would say that that's like the hardest thing is not seeing growth. And also that is part of the adversity because when you're not seeing growth, there's obviously things that are going wrong in your business, so you have to fix those. Um, and being able to compartmentalize the business from your personal life as well. To be able to tackle those problems and not let that affect your personal life.

Yeah. You have any examples, like hard spot, what it was and what you did to fix it?

I do. I have. The hardest spot was when we were having some issues with a carrier and we had some issues overall with the business that was going through. There was just not high enough numbers, um, which we didn't know that we were doing it the wrong way, um, but now we know. And we had to lose it for a little while. And during that time, it was really, really hard to tackle that issue. But what happened was that it ended up being a blessing in disguise because we changed our entire business model. So Like if you look at it from that perspective, it's like there were things that were going wrong that we needed to change, but we weren't aware of how to change them, nor were we aware that it was affecting other people. So going in and changing business models to be able to grow that, I mean, that's what we did and now we're back on track and that, you know, that was a hard couple months there, but adversity hits, you know, and what are you gonna do? You gotta figure out a way to make it better and you gotta figure out a way to improve. And luckily, in an industry like this, like, we have great people that we work with that are able to communicate with us and able to allow us to become better so that we can get on back on track with exactly what we need to. So that, that's the, the hardest thing.

I love how, like, stoic you are about it, because to be clear, you were losing your ever-loving shit.

Yeah, I was losing my mind. I almost lost it completely.

Yeah, I do.

I have to— in order for me to like really be able to get past that adversity, I have to look at it in a better light. And that's what I had to do the entire time. And, you know, I truly believe that everything happens for a reason. So if something like that is happening, like, things need to change and Um, this business is adaptable. You have to adapt to what's working, um, for others and making sure that it's good for everybody involved. So that is huge. And that's where mental toughness is extremely important because there will be times in your business where things will go down, whether that be your income, whether that be your, your lead flow, whether that be your recruiting pull. Like, things will go down. And if you don't know how to in a healthy way overcome them, you will lose everything that you built. Um, and I remember thinking that. I was like, there is no way I am going to lose everything that I have done in this business. I am going to fix this. I'm gonna make it work. I'm gonna do whatever it takes. I don't care if I have to fly around the country to figure this out. I'm gonna do it. Like, and you know, that's how you get better. You just don't give up. Like, you don't just say, oh, poor me, Like, you know, it wasn't poor me. It was like, this is a circumstance. This is something that happened to me. Like, that's okay. Things happen to us every day. People have their own stuff that's going on all the time that we don't even know about. So it's like, not poor me. It's like, okay, this happens, so what do we do to fix it? Like, what do we need to do to fix it? And that's the mindset that we had.

Yeah, yeah, you handled it well. You're only out Couple days. I mean, are you, you know what I mean? Like you turned around pretty quick, you know, like, all right, it is what it is. Like, I got a damn solve it. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and to be fair, it's like, all right, so we don't have that carrier, dude. You know how many people have built multi-zillion dollar companies in this industry without that carrier? Like, I know it's something, but who cares?

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, the cool, it's like your daughter, you know, in a sense that she's watching you and if something's going on in your personal world and you overreact, you're teaching her to overreact. You know what I'm saying? If you're, if you're like handling things well, which you do, she's watching that. So I'm sure then it's the same thing. Your agents were watching, and if you publicly— like, you did it very well. Like, you privately lost your shit to a couple people that you could confide in. Yeah, you didn't like lose your shit in front of everybody, which was great, because had you, they would have imagined the little— you know what I mean? That would have been a sign to them that it's okay to do that and still have a chance at having success. I always tell people, it's like, and you said it too, like, this industry is gonna punch you in the face. Life is, business is, family is, health is. Like, you're dealing with stuff no matter what. It's coming to all of us. Yeah. You know, and it's like, I think the ones that I've, I've been now 12 years doing this, and the ones that have built the biggest and most sustainable companies and have done the best really are able to keep their head on a swivel and adapt to the change that's inevitable. Yeah, you know, and like right now the whole world is like, telesales, ah, you telling me in 5 years it's not gonna be different? It's going— I'm telling you it's going to be different. Yeah, I got, I got the perfect lead. Baka la. Next year that will not be the perfect lead, I promise you.

Yeah, yeah, you can't, you can't rely on just one lead. There's no way you It's forever changing. And that's, that's exactly what you mean by like learning how to adapt. I mean, you have to learn how to adapt to the ups and the downs of the business. It's always going to be forever changing, and you can't spend too much time feeling bad for yourself because if you do, you're, you're wasting time. Like, there are things that can be done and there's things that you can be proactive about to get past the adversity. And those little, those things that happen in business, I mean The people that get past them are the ones that are successful every single time. You just have to be able to be mentally strong enough. And if you're not mentally strong enough, you will fail. That's why I'm so big on that, because you really will fail. I know what it feels like to be mentally not strong. So you need to focus on that and you need to be strong enough to be able to get past anything that comes your way.

Yeah, I love it. I want to wrap up. I want to ask some personal stuff and share what you want. Hide what you want, doesn't matter. But you know, I get— I do get— I do follow you on social, so I get to see some of the cool stuff you do with— I don't know if they're agents or friends or— but you, you live good. But what are some things like— and I'm more like, I got into this to change my kids' lives, you know what I mean? Like, I did— I was tired of telling them no. There's some things I wanted to accomplish for them and be able to provide for them in a certain way. I'm curious, like, if you'll share any of the cool things that, like, I wanted to do this for my daughter and here's, like, now I can. Is there anything like—

yeah, my daughter was the main reason why I obviously wanted to change her life. I wanted to give her a better life than I had had and a better life than I was thinking that I was going to be able to provide her. So, um, you know, the cool things that we have done is that we are able to travel now. Um, I never thought I was gonna be able to travel everywhere with my daughter when I did have her. Um, never thought that I'd be able to enroll her in like different types of private gymnastics or private sports, like things that she wants to do. Um, because all of that costs money, and like for the average person, like, that's expensive, and it gets expensive over time. And like, we don't even think about it. Like, she— we go snowboarding all the time, and like snowboarding lessons are not cheap, if anyone knows. But they— this is something we're able to do, you know. We're able to get a place right next to the resort, you know, like we're able to actually do those things. And I love that I can do that with her. I love that I've been able to buy a house. I love that I can provide her with a home that's beautiful for all of us. I love that we have the freedom to not worry about the price tag of things. And I love the fact that my daughter sees me work really hard and she respects it a lot. And I, and I love that because I know that she's going to be the same way as me. Um, she's gonna, she's gonna be appreciative for what she has, and she really is. But she's also going to know that you do have to work hard to get the things that you want in life, and that things aren't just handed to you on a silver platter. Because she understands the concept of, you know, when Mommy gets a new car, when Mommy gets a new bracelet, or whatever the case may be, or when I get her something new, she knows that I worked hard for that because she watches me, you know. She knows that. So I think that that's really cool. Um, aside from that, I mean, this has just given me, um, you know, more of like an open mind to what else like is out there for me in this world, you know? Like, I never thought that if you're stuck in a 9 to 5 or a hospital for 12 hours a day, you don't even know what's out there. You don't know that there's places that you can travel. You don't know that there's people that you can meet. You don't know that there's other hobbies and other avenues out there for you, and this vehicle allows you to do that. So I think that's so cool because I think about like all the other ventures, you know, like maybe one day— like, I love Pilates, I love spin bikes— like maybe one day I'll open up like a little place in Chico where, you know, there's Pilates and spin. And that's cool, it's something that I could do, which you never think about those things because you you couldn't do them before. So yeah, but we, we live good. Um, we're very blessed. We work hard and we will continue to work hard. I believe that, um, you know, you— like, what you put into the universe is what comes back to you. So like, you have to continue to work hard, be good to people, and it will come back to you.

A sign says behind you, it says work hard and be nice to people.

Yeah, I live by that.

Yeah, good little mantra. I love it. Well, anything you want to leave them with, whether it's— I don't know if you want people following you, you can share it if you do, or if you want to leave them with any last thoughts, more than happy to put out whatever you want.

Yeah, great. Well, you guys can follow me, it's at @KatelynnCarmella, um, K-A-T-E-L-Y-N-N-C-A-R-M-E-L-L-A. And then I'm also giving my phone number because I— my Instagram is extremely busy and sometimes I miss things. So you can feel free to text me. Calls are usually not good because I'm usually on my phone, so I won't answer you. But shoot me a text and I will get back to you. It's 530-570-5567. That's my personal line. If you want to chat about the opportunity, we're always open to growth and open to new people with new opportunities.

I appreciate your time. It's always fun.

Thank you, John. I appreciate you too. Always fun talking to you. Always fun chatting with you. I was like, yeah, we're not going to prepare for this because we just get along.

Yeah, you asked a couple of times. I'm like, yeah, we'll be all right. It'll be good. Yeah, I appreciate it. And thanks for everything you're doing. It's cool to watch. Very happy to see what you guys are accomplishing in the world of insurance. It's very fun to see other people killing it too.

So thank you, thank you.