How I Make $2 MILLION/yr Working 3 Days A Week ft. Tiffany Gruenberg | Ep61

Everything good over there?

Yeah, I was just— agents are stupid, man. They like—

you can't write a good opening to our podcast right here. Tell me more. Welcome to the podcast, peeps.

Thanks, coming in hot.

Insurance Insiders. We might, we might put that stuff out because it's been recording the whole time even though I didn't start it yet. But you know, I'm like, maybe that'll be— maybe there'll be a good part of it. I don't know. It's, it's true though. Um, well, I appreciate you getting on. Um, those of y'all watching, appreciate you tuning in again and, and all the cool messages we get about the guests and comments. And it's getting out there, this little podcast that I just kind of threw together one day. Um, so Tiffany is with me today. I've known her for a hot minute, her and her husband been in the business for, for a while. Hell, maybe longer than me. You've been in the business a minute, I think.

I have been in business, I, I think I've I've been in business for about 17 years, and then I've been in insurance for 8 years before that. So I've been in the— I've been in the game.

So I started in 2012. Well, technically I got my license in 2010, but I didn't do anything for 2 years. So you've been around longer than that, I assume?

Yeah, it's been a minute.

2007, '08? Yeah, dig it.

Yeah, '08.

I know has sold a lot of insurance, built an agency, does a ton of annuity volume now, all kinds of stuff. I think a lot on referrals. I don't even think you're in the lead game at this point, are you? You don't play leads at all anymore?

No, no, I just— I mean, the, the annuity world is such a circle of influence if, if you play it right, right? If you do the right thing by your clients, uh, you just— you don't have to be in the lead game. People just call you, right?

How much annuity money you moving now?

So I think right now I have about just 300. There's a lot of little ones kind of that I'm, I'm rolling, but there's about 300 in the pipeline right now. Working on that one this morning is going to be about a year. Uh, oh, I would say over 2, 2, usually.

Yeah, it doesn't suck at all.

It doesn't. And it's not— I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm running when I want to run and, you know, spend a lot of time with my kids. And yeah, it's awesome. It's great.

I dig it. How, uh, but you don't come from that? Space at all.

No, no, I did not come from that space at all.

I—

when I got into insurance, I was managing a vet practice. So really, like, yeah, as far as you can get.

I don't remember that one.

No, covered in just saying, in dog pee most of my day.

Dang.

This has been a, a huge transition. And it's, you know, Dan and I laugh about it actually a lot because You know, who, who's to say, like, an admin, or like, I, I did a lot of secretarial type work, which it, you know, before I got here and Dan wasn't at the DOT. So, and now, you know, you can, you can do whatever you want, you know, every once in a while by a W-2.

Yeah, every once in a while, a while back, not anymore. Now they come to our house, the people who groom the dogs and take care of them, but A long time ago, uh, Steph used to every once in a while have me drop our dog off because it was on the way to the office or whatever. And I'm not the biggest animal dude, to be honest. And, uh, yeah, but when I would get there in the lobby, it was always like all these animals that were like overly stressed out and nervous as shit to go back. Like they knew they were at the doctor, you know what I mean? They're gonna get clipped on and pushed and whatever y'all do and behind the counter. The dogs don't like it all. No, the scrambling and wetting themselves and shitting on the floor that I would see every time I got in. As you were explaining that, and then earlier you said agents suck, I sometimes see the two correlate a lot. Like, I picture a lot of agents kind of handle themselves that way.

Yeah, and then throw cats in the mix because we're, you know, let's have a lobby that has dogs and cats. That makes sense. Yeah, it's miserable.

It's interesting. Anyway, so beginning of the insurance career, would you sell What was it like at the beginning? Obviously going from vet to this business, what was that like for you and the family, all that?

Yeah, it was hard. I mean, one of the things that we did though, and I encourage everyone to do this, was like we had a family meeting. We, we sat down and said, listen, uh, Mom's not gonna be as available as she has been. I had little kids when I started. I think they were 8 and 4 when I first started.

Got it.

So I— we just had to have a really open communication, and then I just got him to buy in. I think that's the biggest thing. Like, I know you guys have spouses that are crapping in your ear when you first start because comp is hard to transition to, but we made it a part of our life and a part of our family. So I would— we had a little running tally on our refrigerator when I would sell because I was racing to get like 25 apps, you know, in 30 days or what have you, and they would get to mark them off when I got home. And it was, you know, Mommy, what'd you sell today? And things like that. So they were bought in, and now they're still bought in. I mean, I got 20-year-old college kids that are like, hey, when's your next comp coming in? When's your annuity issue?

Yeah, do any of them want to do this?

Um, I have— well, one's in nursing school, and she's wanted to be a nurse since she was forever. And the other is just kind of doing that floundering thing where, you know, we're just paying for college and she gets to party a lot.

And then finally— oh, sorry, go ahead, keep going.

Oh, the little one, she, she could sell ice to an Eskimo.

I mean, she's all she knows.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she's gonna do just fine.

Yeah, that's how Maddox is like that, you know. But Brayden— so my oldest, um, Shaylee— I was trying to think if you were at the old company with us. I don't think you were, right? Pre-FL. Yeah, so Shaylee at that time there sold for a minute. My oldest, she's 30 now, but she only did it— she went to college and she was done.

Yeah.

And, uh, the next two, nothing. But Brayden, he's 17 now, and he's like figuring out like, oh dang, I'm about to be an adult and y'all just kind of pushed me in the pool. And so he's wanting to kind of learn about money, and he's been around my office enough lately, um, to go like, hey, what does it take? So today, literally today, I'm gonna have him like start training on dialing today. Yeah. So Yeah.

Beautiful. I used to call my family when I was learning the phones. I would just randomly call my kids and Delilah, when I think she was 10, she was the hardest to book an appointment with. She would be like, I'm busy. I have to play with my dolls. I can't make that time for you. So she's like, that's funny. Giving objections at 10. That's awesome.

What did you sell at the beginning? What products?

So I sold, um, A little bit of Medicare, long-term—

really?

Yeah, 0 out of 10. It's so much paperwork. I was like, I don't— this is not for me. Uh, so a little bit of Medicare, long-term care was a big part of it, and then, um, life and annuities. But, um, I— the first piece of business I ever wrote in insurance was an annuity.

No kidding, really? Wow.

Yeah, the very first app I ever wrote.

I was like, were you working leads then though?

Yeah. Huh?

Were you working leads then? Early?

Uh, yeah, yeah. A lot of orphan stuff, right? Um, just our clients. But yeah, makes sense. I just sold it all. And I think that helps a little bit. Like, if you're in the insurance industry, you should know, you should have a base knowledge of everything that's out there to offer. Because people are going to ask, right? Like, you don't need long-term care, you can self-insure. Well, you wouldn't know that if you didn't know what long-term care was, right? So I think that's, that's a good advice, is to learn it all. To, I mean, you know, unless you're, you don't want to learn Medicare, unless your memory is like a paper bag, and yeah, don't do it. Don't do it.

Some of you can't learn one thing and get good at it. 6 years in, still don't know underwriting. Let me add Medicare. I love you all.

AEP, learn that.

No, no, it's a fine line, people.

It's so great. Such a good market and people do so well. It's just, you know, you got to know you, and I'm not that.

Yeah, I love it. Interesting. When did you get into the— how'd you connect here? I don't, I don't even know.

So I, uh, Dan randomly, he was a supervisor at the DOT and he went into, I think, Buffalo Wild Wings with his crew and ran into a guy from high school that he knew. And he's like, oh man, what are you doing these days? You know? And he was always recruiting. And so he, he's like, oh really? Well, oh, actually my wife does that. And he was like, never mind. I don't want to talk to you. Let me call your wife. So, and I was at a separate company. And I would be like, he had found out when my, uh, when my sales meetings were, and during the sales meetings he would just send me comp statements and they were a lot more comp than I was making. So I, it just, it became a no-brainer.

And who was it? Do I know?

It was Matt.

Oh, I want— I wonder, I thought it was him but I wasn't sure.

And so he just forever I was, and it just got to a point where I'm selling whole life, like a whole life final expense product, making 30% on it, 35%. And it just, there was no math that made sense anymore.

So, and he was selling a policy every 12 minutes.

Yeah.

So I'm sure you got lots of them.

Yeah, I did. So it was just for, it was for an hour. Like the sales meeting was from 11 to 12, and for an hour my phone would be ding, ding. And he just sent them. It was great. It's so effective.

Such a trip.

Isn't that funny?

Does not surprise me with Matt.

I love it. Yeah, he— yeah. And then it was, it was Mike who told me one day, stop making your husband go into work. Stop it. Stop it. Really? Yeah.

I'm not surprised at that one either.

He can talk to— because I was like, no, it's security, we need it.

I remember us talking years ago trying to get him to do the sales side, and he was always like, it's not my thing. He did a little bit. I know he did sell some. Yeah.

And then he just was like, no, I— yeah, Mike was like, stop it, stop it. The freedom you guys will have as a family, stop. Yeah. What's it like now? Uh, it's good, it's good. He manages more. Um, like, he does life for the most part. He always is going to write annuities because that— it's just dumb if you don't really.

Yeah.

Um, but he runs a lot of life, and I, I I work from home now and I'm home for, you know, when Dee has softball and whatever, we get to go and it's great. So we just kind of do our own thing, which is nice in business. If you work together, you just get to do what you want. Love it.

It's awesome. How do you get from like selling client-to-client, lead-based, making calls, doing the dials, the grind, you know what I mean? Like that kind of hamster wheel. There's obviously several different ways out of that. Um, so, but why do you—

I mean, yeah, you have to do it, right? Like, I think people like to think that they can just skip through this business, and you can't.

Like, please, please just get to where you are today. Yeah, day one.

Yeah, yeah, you can't. Uh, and you know, if you're, if you're running an agency and, you know, you, you've got agents that think that they can just skip it and be you and all these kinds of things, uh, they can't. Like, you have to do it. Like, I had my kids were drawing pictures of our family. I wasn't in them. Because I worked. I worked 80 hours a week. I was dedicated, and I did it so I could buy my freedom, right? So you get to that point by doing the grind. You do. You've got to, you know, if you want bigger and you want an exit strategy out of the field, build one. Talk, you know, recruit, get agents you can trust, give them tools. Like, don't hire people and then walk away from them. I think that's A lot of people do that. And, you know, you can have a great agency with, with lower numbers if they're productive, if you give them what they need, if you train them. And then I, I think you, you become referable. I think that so many people we get, like, we're lead junkies, right? We, we need those new numbers to dial. But imagine if you could, you know, lower the amount of leads you have to outbound dial and just start getting people calling you. I mean, you, if you have someone that retires from an any kind of agency or any kind of business, they're not the only one that's ever retired there. So how are you walking away from that person and not talking to the next person? So becoming referable has been the most profitable, profitable part of my business by far.

By far. So it started with leads.

Mm-hmm.

And then you were finding their circle.

Yeah, yeah.

How do you go about it? Like, because quite frankly, I was terrible at that. I did not do a good job at it. Yeah, I mean, I'd get some naturally, you know what I mean? But yeah, I was not playing the game. So I was taught how to do it weird, and I didn't like it.

I was too. Yeah, I was like, you know, hi John, I, you know, I, I feel like I've done a great job for you today. Would you agree? Yes. Well, can you think of anyone or 5 people that I might also be able to help? And then you just look down and wait for them to give you 5 names first.

I did emergency contacts and I hated it, dude.

I didn't like that one either. I didn't like that one either. Or call the beneficiary. I've heard that one a lot. Call the beneficiary and see, you know, what they have, of course, because, you know, Mom and Dad just bought this for you, basically.

Yeah. Um, it feels like the closing of like, we're not— you don't have to make any decisions, we're just seeing if you're eligible.

Uh-huh. Yeah.

And then you put it through and then you wonder why they cancel. The process. Feels the, I feel the same ick.

Yeah. The process close. Uh, no, I, I just, because when I worked with someone, this is a relationship-based business. It is a relationship sale. So when I would go through the process, it was just a matter of making them feel so comfortable and confident in me that they didn't really have a choice but to talk to their friends in their circle about it. Uh, and like, I wrote— I had a client who retired from Xerox, and it was during— they were doing a lot of early retirement offers, severances, layoffs, and things like that. And she— I wrote $2.5 million in her circle just simply on an annuity basis. I wrote life in, in as well, but it was just simply because she was so confident in me and what I had done for her. I never even asked for a referral. From her. She just was like, hey, I need you to call throwing them at you and Mary. And it was just this thing. She's like, yeah, get in front of them. I'm still writing that circle. I, I literally wrote 200 for that circle last year, like end of last year.

What do you think it is that you do better than most agents to make it— you keep saying referable, which I like. I've never heard that word. I'm a fan of new words. I have a small vocabulary.

Uh, I I think what I do is there's a way to present yourself as, as an expert, like fake it till you make it, right? That kind of thing. Uh, I just did that. I do that. I speak with an assertiveness, a confidence that people want other people to feel, and I make the clients feel like their decisions have never— they've never decided anything in their life that was better than this decision. And that's like, you know, that there's an old saying about, you know, people will never remember what you say, but they'll remember how you make them feel. That's what I do. I make them feel amazing. I leave those clients' houses and I get I love yous, right? Which I always thought was a little bit weird, but I see them more than their kids do a lot, you know? And if you're working in that senior market, you've got to do that. And I know a lot of folks are on the phones now. You can still do this on the phone. All of my annuity volume that I'm doing now is on the phone, and I'm still getting referrals. You can make people feel amazing in the hour or the 30 minutes that you talk to them and write an app. You can make them feel really good. So I think that's what I do better, is I make them feel good. I don't— I'm not there for me. Like, I'm going to— I'll get my self-worth from somewhere, but I'm not— you know, I think a lot of agents' egos get in the way. To be honest.

Yeah, that is definitely true. Get effing paid.

Get effing paid.

Get effing paid.

Get effing paid.

What up, guys? If you guys are looking to get to a new level in your career, you may have seen that we've been running some workshops in my office in Atlanta. I have them every quarter now. The last one sold out fully. It was a massive success. A couple different levels you can attend. Just a general ticket, get you in the door, listen to 2 days of training, interactive workshop style. We really dive into what you got going on and how to get to new levels. If you're looking to be in a new crowd, higher level up, um, I have a private mastermind. Last one was at my house. It was insane. Um, all the value that everybody added to each other and we had a good time. And, uh, I heard it was way underpriced relative to what people got out of it. You can check out some of the testimonials here, I'm sure. But if you'd like to attend, click the link below. I do 'em every quarter. The date'll be around here somewhere. Look forward to seeing you there. If you are in the insurance industry and you're looking to scale and grow your business, I highly encourage you to check John Wetmore out. Probably honestly made the cost of the event back in like the first 2 hours of being here. If you want to win and you want to grow, I'd get around John as much as you can. John Wetmore is a beast.

So much value in everything that I've learned here.

Growing, about building, delegating. He's talking about systems and automating right now. It is worth the price of admission. Make sure you get to the next one. How, um, what advice what advice would you give on if someone wants to start writing annuities that's not— and they're like, how do I have the confidence when I don't know what the hell I'm doing? You know what I mean? Like, how do you, how do you balance the two? Or how do you get people moving on that? I obviously, I get to work with you in the thing we do, so it's like I see you doing it. But for the sake of this, I, I'd love to—

man, I, I wish that we would all stop making annuities this giant thing. Because that's what it is. We scare the absolute crap out of agents. We scare them into thinking that this is a product that they don't know enough about, they can't do whatever. It's just insurance. Like, if it was more than that, it wouldn't be a part of your test and your license. You would have to have special licenses. You would have to, you know, be FINRA registered and all this kind of stuff. It's not. It is an insurance product. It is very similar to a life insurance policy. You pay a premium, you die, it pays out. You pay an insurance premium, you want to take money out of it, you have access. It grows. It is so simple as a product that we overcomplicate it. And the other thing I think with agents is they're— they get into this mindset that they don't want help on something that they know nothing about, which is just idiocy to me. Like, ask for help, get help, partner with someone who knows the annuity product, learn from them, write several apps together, and then go on your own. Like, I always thought it was weird because, like, I'm all about good math, and 100% of zero is motherfucking zero.

It's zero.

So stop with the 'I can do it on my own,' right? Like, I had an agent that was working on $700,000 I'm like, please let me talk to them. And come to find out that it was in a 401 that they had zero disbursement. Like, they couldn't take any money. So you're wasting time because you're not asking good questions. Learn the questions, partner with someone, and don't be afraid to ask your clients because you may be the only one that ever puts them in a position where they can protect their money. So I think it just starts from day one. Like, if you have a license, please start talking about annuities from the beginning. Don't wait. It's like building an agency. I got to wait until I'm good at it. Well, you might not be good at it. So you might be terrible.

So that's the old Kilomet line.

Yeah, classic.

Love it. So how do they start?

So the origination of the annuity conversation is simply by asking— we call it the golden question, whatever. It's simply, what do you have that acts like life insurance? What do you have that's going to pass to your beneficiaries when you're no longer with us? Simple questions like that will put you in front of money. It always does. People will say, what do you mean by that? Well, any— and now you've disarmed them, right? They're asking you, what do you mean? That's a disarming scenario. So now you can say, oh, you know, any IRAs, 401s, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, you know, significant savings, anything like that. So at this point, I've not said, hey, John, give me your bank statement. I haven't said, give me your Social Security number so I can look up your IRA. I've said nothing like that. I've just simply said, let's communicate about it. Let's communicate about it. The other thing I think that especially if you're, if you're on the phone and you're introducing yourself, you know, to clients, it's important to let them know what you're licensed for. You know, hey, John, I'm licensed to talk about, you know, your life insurance. Your retirement income and, you know, whatever else you're, you know, your health or whatever. And now I've already told them I'm going to ask you some questions about all of those things. I just want you to know that's why, because I am licensed to discuss those. We're going to focus on whatever you called, but I've never heard you say that.

Weird enough. I like that.

Really?

Yeah. I just missed that one. It's funny, like how much you can be around someone and miss something so big. That's a good one.

Yeah, thanks. It's just disarming, I think.

Yeah, it seems really obvious now too.

It is. And I've done it forever, like, with it. And again, that's a— those are for leads, right? When, when I'm referred to someone, I know why they're calling, you know. I don't necessarily have to do that. I still say it, but still, yeah. I mean, if, if I'm writing, they need life insurance, I, I'm their girl. Like, I'm your, I'm your everything, right? I'm holistic. I wanna— I'm, I'm gonna help you.

The same concept is like, hey, I work with 20 different companies and I'm gonna do the shopping for you. It's the same psychology, 100%. Yeah, smart.

And that way, when you ask the questions, like, I am massive on— I don't get a lot of objections. And everyone's like, you know, BS. Yeah, you do. No, I don't. No, I don't. Because I'm gonna take them away before you ask them. I'm going to tell you, I specialize in life insurance, retirement income planning, and mortgage protection. And today we're going to focus on, you know, your life insurance. That's why you call. But if you have questions about that, I definitely can answer them for you. So when I start digging in and I ask, what do you have? They're like, oh yeah, she already told me she was going to ask me questions about that. There you go.

Damn, I'd have sold a lot more annuities if I went back in time with that one. I did the— I did all the stuff in the middle. And all the stuff at the end, I did all that right. I did not do that in my intro.

And it would be great again, especially when you're doing phone sales.

I think that's awesome.

It will help massively if you're running leads, you know, tell people that I'm licensed for this, and then that's where you get into your secondary, you know, sale opportunities.

15 years in, you gave me a light bulb moment. It's good. Appreciate you.

Thanks. I'm passing on it.

I love it. Cool. So how do we, uh, so when they find it, do you— what do you think you— what do you want to get into next? How about that? You know it all, and you know all the questions I could lead you to ask, you know what I mean? So let's just like, let's just— you, you go next. What do you think is important for people to learn?

Like, I think it's important to learn why, like, why the annuity market is so important for your business. Because we talk about it, you know, and we say, oh, you know, annuities are great and you get paid a lot. But I don't think we ever really talk about what kind of strength that product brings to your book. Because we're slanging a lot of insurance, right? I mean, the, the industry itself has changed. We are crushing, you know, the, the replacement market to put you in a better product, a stronger product. Not have accidental when you thought it was real insurance. We're doing a great job at that. So the volume that we're seeing is massive, right? So how do you keep that volume and then add in this next step? Because it's so important to your business. If you can write one annuity, one annuity per month, and it doesn't have to be massive, it doesn't have to be $400,000 or $500,000. It simply needs to be one. If you can write one annuity, the influx of that chunky money that comes into your business puts you in a position of strength. It puts you in a position to recruit. It gives you the opportunity to use hiring platforms. It gives you the opportunity to not stress about your lead bill. You know, I just, I wish people could understand that, like, we're not pushing this product because we need the volume, because I'll write it all. Let me be clear. I'll write it all. You send it all to me, I'll do it. But we want it for everyone else because of how powerful it is in your business. It, it's just, it's something that you can rely on to bring. And, and if you break it down, like, you write one $100,000 annuity, right? That's— you're at $550,000, or $5,000— you know, $5,500 is typically your, your comp unless you move up the ranks. But That's what— how much in, in life on—

yeah, it's a lot.

And I just, I, I wish that we could get people to understand the reason that we push this product and the reason that we want people to incorporate it into their business is for their business. It doesn't do us any good, right? It really does.

The overrides suck.

The overrides suck.

Which is why most people are teaching it. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like it's— we're not— it's not an override product. It's not for us as managers and leaders. It's literally for you and your business. And when we, when we say like, and I'll have agents that'll work with all agencies that I work with and they'll ask the, you know, the golden question and, and use that lead-in and everything for about 15 minutes and then they're like, screw it, I'm going back, right? I'm just going to write. I'm going to slang insurance and write life. I just make it a part of your business because it's so powerful to your business. It's not like— and we're stepping over freaking dollars to pick up pennies sometimes. It's there. It is there. Just, yeah, that— I think that's, that's really important.

Yeah. Hell, I got paid 6 grand on one yesterday and I don't even write in hoodies. This is great.

I know.

I still like it. You know, my son, that's— Braden was in yesterday and I told them, and I've been trying to like share more and more with him, and he's like Yeah, I know. Amanda already told me. And I was like, good. He's like, when can I start doing this again? That's why he's getting on the phones today.

We're going to—

he can't sell, but we're going to start training him. He's going to start booking appointments and things like that.

I've said this probably a million times since I started selling. If I would have found this at 18 or 20—

oh, bro.

Oh my God. Just— I say it all the time. If I would have found this, if somebody would have said to me, listen, this is what you're good at, you know? Because I was thinking, you know, when you're— I mean, Gen X, right? We're in college and we're like, oh, you have to be a doctor or a lawyer to make any money.

Yeah, 100%.

I remember I was pre-med in college and I thought, I don't want to be in school this long. So yeah, I wish.

I was 35 by the time I found this shit myself. So again, it's craziness. Um, and you know, if y'all have interest, we have, um— I've had Tiffany on. A lot of people here obviously follow my stuff already and are probably already involved, but for those don't, we put on an annuity boot camp. Um, we've done several, you and I together, me, her, and John Gavin. We've probably done, I don't know, 5 or 6 or 7, something like that, um, videos on it. So if you just— if you go to JohnWetmore.com/annuity, she's actually walked through a ton of stuff, like more than we can put in today, um, on the annuity business and ways to help agents and clients. And there's all kinds of options for you out there. And if you're looking for help writing them, there's just a little, uh, form on the site, goes to Tiffany, and, and she can reach out as well. So, um, cool. I love it. What, um, what do you see like from— if you were, if you were in an— and I know you, you try to make the people obviously take care of them, make them feel good, they're giving you referrals naturally— but how are you training on people to seek referrals out now without it being freaking weird? Like, how do we teach them how to do it?

I think, I think follow-ups are awesome. Um, I know they're time-consuming, right? But I think, because I do think that it gives me the massive ick when you ask for a referral on your first appointment. I just think it's weird. I think it's creepy. I think you— yeah, the ew. Um, but I think if you like— and I'm talking like, we don't have to wait 3 months or 6 months or a birthday or any of that kind of crap because that's just too much to take care of. But I think if you like set follow-ups for 5 to 10 days, they should have gotten their policy, right? You call them back and you say, hey, you know, John, I just wanted to make sure that you got your policy. You know, make sure you go in, highlight your beneficiary, highlight your death benefit, right? And, you know, once you get that stuff, I just was wondering, you know, I do a lot of my business on referrals. Like, I don't mind saying that to my clients. I do a lot of business on referrals. You know, can you think of anyone that you think might need my help? It's not hard. And they may be like, you know what? I was just talking to my daughter about you. I just told her I put some in place. Let me give you her phone number. And it's like, I'm not asking for 10 people. I'm not trying to sell you Cutco knives, right? What I'm doing is I'm trying to help the people around you in your circle protect themselves the same way you did. And again, I mean, I'm encouraging them. I'm telling them you made a great decision. But I think a quick follow-up call, like you can spend an hour, do like on everything you sold every 10 days, spend an hour and just recontact those people. That's free leads. That's free leads. And if it takes you an hour to get 5 free leads and you're working with someone who already purchased, right, buyers are buyers are buyers. So that's, that's the biggest thing. I mean, I rarely get into a referral appointment where I don't place business. It is very rare. Like, it's happened to me once, and I still remember that. I still remember.

Easy work most people won't do. Everything you just explained. Yes, easy work.

Yeah, correct.

It's like harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. 100%.

Like, work smarter, not harder, y'all. Just try it.

I'm a big fan of both.

Yes.

Like, yes, if you're working hard, why not also be smart about it.

Do the easy things.

Yeah, like, why not? It's a, it's an easy way to ask.

Do you think that agents, when they start, right, do you think that they, they just get like a tunnel vision and like, because you know how people become product loyal, right? Yeah. Um, because that's all they want to learn, they want to learn one thing. Do you think that there's like, how would we make the annuity option to be part of that tunnel vision? Like, you know what I mean? With a new agent, like, because this is something we talk about in the agency a lot. Like, how do you get them to tunnel that way? Like, you can look down two paths. Yeah, but I like— that's one of the things we struggle on. Like, how do you get them, like, to learn one product and just the basics of it so they can place it.

It feels almost like getting Maddox, who's 13, to clean up his room without us asking. Yes, it feels the same.

Excellent analogy. Like, they just don't want to.

Yeah, it makes you want to put like a fork against the wall and bang my head into it a couple times. I, um, you know, I think that's part of the mission that obviously we've collided in very similar ways, is like I'm trying to explain how simple this business is if you do it the right way. And I made an ass ton of money selling annuities, and I don't know jack about annuities still, like almost nothing other than you won't lose any money. If you're looking to keep your money safe, I can help. If you want anything else, call someone else. That's literally how I sold the one yesterday. I didn't go into indexes. I didn't go into— I don't even know what to go into because I don't know any of the stuff, quite frankly.

And they don't— they don't want to know either. Do you think that every broker on the planet explains every ticker symbol, every stock that they put people's money in? They don't. Okay? They, they don't. They either know they make money or they don't. So like, learn to say you'll never lose another penny, and they'll be like, sign me up, sounds good.

That's all that happened. It was like, hey, I got this account, the market's going crazy, I'm losing a bunch of money, I heard you help people not lose more. I was like, yeah, that's what I like, I want that. I'm like, got it, send me your account, and can you talk in 10 minutes? And it literally took 15 minutes, like, and I don't even write apps, dude, and I got through the app no problem.

Yeah, because they're not hard. They're not. That's another intimidating— like, when I— because I'm working with a lot of new agents now, and they get so intimidated by it. And I'm like, here's the suitability rules, make sure they fit. Like, I don't— I don't— please don't complicate things that are not complicated.

Yeah.

And I think, I think that that is the most paralyzing part. I think it's new agents and annuities.

If you're an insurance agent and you feel like you're stuck, you've hit a wall, you're trying to figure out sales strategies, the scripts to use, how to get like off the ground and get to that top of the leaderboard type status. I have a course that I've put out, super affordable. I'm getting a ton of great feedback from people every day on the strategies they've learned and been able to implement, from goal setting to sales techniques to calendar scheduling, everything you would need to get your business off the ground and get running quickly. jwcourse.com, click the link below and get in there today. I, I'm just guessing a little bit, but it's a cool conversation. Like, I feel like part of it's just all the noise around people that they listen to, you know what I'm saying? And like, I think people naturally go down the rabbit hole of what if, and they make up all this negative shit in their head, you know? What if it goes here? What if they ask this? What if What if I have to talk to a financial guy? What if they ask questions? What if I— you know what I mean? And they go down this crazy Never Never Land of what-if, black hole, negative side. And what I always try to teach people is like, I don't— no one's ever argued with me that everything that comes out of your mouth after you say what-if is made up, right? Everyone ever has agreed with that.

Yes, it's—

and my argument is Right. So I go like, if you know it's made up and you're the one making it up and we know it's make-believe, it's like a comic book. It's not real.

Yep. Fiction.

Why don't you make up good shit?

You're in control of it. It's your story, right?

That's how I always ask it because it confuses me. And I— dude, I'm human. I do it too. And I— but I catch myself, right? And I go like, you just made up something really make-believe and stupid. Cut it out. And I retract and I like restate something a lot, you know what I mean? And I think people just, they believe the stuff they make up in their heads or the noise other people, friends, family, um, dipshits on TikTok that say this, that, or the other thing about every product. And you know what I'm saying? I think they just go down this rabbit hole and they fall into this crazy belief.

And well, and, and it's the, it's the, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of noise, right? There's a lot of noise out there. For this market. So when you're listening to someone who just wants to hear themselves talk when they're training, that's all they want is to hear themselves talk. They want to feel really important. Look how good I am. They, they make that person with that self-talk think, I can never do that. When I train agents and I'm on the phone and, you know, I was talking with an agent, she's like, man, I'm going to be with you for a while. I, I do not speak the way that you speak. And I said, but that's why you're listening. That's why you're listening. So if you can take one thing that I said and create it, you know, put it into memory, what would it be? And now she's using it. That's all we want. Like, I don't, I don't expect you to have 18 years of experience talking about this like I do, because that would be weird. That would be weird. No one's expecting that of you. What they're expecting of you is simply to have a base knowledge I can't lose you any money. And can you say, let me help you? That's it. And again, I, I just think that we, we get into this world, like you said, of what if, as new agents, thinking again, you've already had the conversation with the client before you've had a conversation with the client, and that will never make you any money, ever.

You know what else I'm thinking of as you're talking is like I think I see agents frequently not be able to identify who's not a client for an annuity.

Yes.

And they push and go down that road hard when they don't really know it well because they don't ask for help. Does it make sense? And they're trying to play down this road on their own and they get smacked in the face by a non-client, someone you wouldn't go down the road with.

Yes, of course.

And then they feel like that's what they need to know to sell an annuity because they're speaking to the incorrect person. I think that's a big piece of it too.

I think that's huge because again, every interaction that you have about the product is going to be a part of your learning process. And if you get someone who has no money telling you that annuities are terrible, you— that's where you, you commit that to memory and think, oh well, no one's going to want to have a conversation with me because Joe Schmilles said annuities are bad. Right?

The guy on the other end. Oh yeah, guy who— yeah, the guy who's just not our client because it's not his thing. He likes playing the game and all the jazz.

And that's the thing, like, know your role. Like I tell agents that all the time, I'm like, know your role. I'm not going to fight with you about your money, okay? Do I believe I can put you in a better position? Yes. Do you believe that? No. I'm gonna move on. I— the guy who wants to, or the, or the girl that wants to go ahead and sit there and has 3 TVs on and 4 computer screens and is day trading? Not your client. Yeah, not your client. They don't care. They, they don't. So don't beat yourself up because you can't change that opinion. That's just silly. Talk to, you know, you know, Mary and Joe that, that just cannot afford to lose any money, and they don't know what products are available to them. Like, when you say that the annuity is the number one retirement vehicle in America, Do you know how powerful that statement is?

True.

And it's true. It's literally true. A pension that everybody is like, oh man, I wish I had a pension. That's an annuity. Social Security, that's an annuity, right? Like, if we could just keep things simple and know your audience again, because, yeah, somebody's going to hand your ass to you. You know, they do life insurance too. They— that's the exception, not the rule, especially in the annuity market. People don't know that.

Isn't the lottery an annuity too?

Yes, it is.

That's what I thought.

Give you the option. It's just, it's so bizarre to me that we don't— like, people want to assimilate this product to negative things and all this kind of stuff, and I'm like, you fund an annuity every time you get a paycheck, your taxes. Like, you have one, you own it, you own it already. So I just— it's one of those really bizarre things that we don't like say. And, and by the way, like, the annuity term still comes with negative connotation. Like, I know they were like— it was an '80s thing that they were saying.

I feel like they should rebrand it.

I think it should be called something else. I agree.

It's like whole life, term life, maybe it should be annuity life, or I don't know, new word. You need a new word in there.

Something should be just like—

because it does, it does explain two completely different products, the word.

Yes, absolutely.

It gets a little weird.

Absolutely does. I'm— yeah, and you like— I'm working on a VA right now, and I'm just like, like, you're— it's just simple math, right? You're going from a 2.44% fee to a 0.95% fee and you've lost $30 grand. Like, that's just better math. Better math over here. But I think again, I— it's such the absolute downfall in insurance is the overcomplication of that product.

Yeah, I agree. It's funny though, is the people that get it, they sell a lot of them. It's not like they sell only a couple, the ones where it clicks, you know, because there's so many people seeking it. I mean, it's middle-income America. Most people in middle-income America don't want to lose any more money when they get to a certain age. It's honestly, it's that simple. Just, can you go talk to a bunch of them?

Yes, that's it. That's exactly what it is. And it, it, it really is. And people don't like— they, they want financial security. It's the only reason they go to work. Yeah, right. They go to work for financial security. So why, why don't you make their money work the same way that they do to earn it? That's what an annuity does. I say that all the time. People that have big savings account, that's lazy money. You worked really hard to save that money. You, you know, imagine all the hours it took you at your job to put that money away, and now it's just lazy. It's not working as hard for you as you did to earn it. Let's give it some, you know, give it some opportunity to grow.

And I'm trying to look up our next event as you talk. I'm not ignoring you. Our next one is May 26th, so we're doing one. I, I don't know if you're— who's getting on it between me, you, and John, but some— we got some more annuity training coming. Again, johnwetmore.com/annuity. Um, Tiff's taught a ton of the stuff. We have— you can register for the next event there as well. You You can watch all the past ones. You can get help with a client. You can do whatever you want, or you can just close your eyes and don't sell anymore and keep struggling.

It's such a great website though. Like, I'm on it a lot, just, you know, moving around. But like, the intake forms I think are awesome. Like, hey, I need help. Here's an intake form.

Sure.

I mean, why weren't we doing that a long time ago, John? Those are great. Those are so great. And you put them in front of everyone. I just think like if you're on and you've written annuities or you haven't written annuities, Don't gatekeep that stuff. Like, make sure that your agency and the folks you know in the industry are going to that website because there is so much knowledge on it. It's just— and it's simple. It's not people saying they're better than you. It's just, this is what we do. We're everyday agents.

What's been cool is watching all the people that listen and adapt and change a little bit and how quickly they're finding opportunities and writing them. I'm like, it's really neat to see how much people are getting, getting paid from just a really simple process and helping the client like ease their mind. And yeah, you know, it's—

yeah, I just— I was talking to an agent on— I was doing other things and she was on speaker and, uh, I got done and Dan goes, I think that agent learned because it's good. So many times they don't, and he's like, oh, 100%. Learned.

I know they keep doing the same thing. So again, we're always going to continue to make it easier for y'all to skip some of the hard shit we went through.

Yes.

And it's cool watching, watching a lot of y'all listen and learn from it. I get it. I do get a ton of messages, especially on ones that are different. Yeah, you know, a lot of people stick to sort of the bread and butter on the sales side, and when I— one like this, that'll be a little bit different than the norm. People are like, oh dang, That's, that's freaking cool. So if you need any help along the way, certainly let us know. And thank you, Tiff, for getting on and sharing your knowledge in this space and helping everybody out and taking your time. Appreciate you as always.

Enjoyed it.

Let us know.