I Taught 10 Life Insurance Agents How to Make Their First $100,000 (ft. Katelynn Blackburn)

You know, all the insurance I've sold, I've never sold any family. My mom told me no. She got a mortgage protection lead in the mail and she called me. She was like, what are these? Some guy keeps showing up. What are these? So I explained it to her. She was like, no, I'm good. I always look at it like two things. Um, one, the first is like, as you're starting to build stuff, I think people overcomplicate it and it does. There are things that get complicated. For sure. But we still to this day keep it as simple. And this is my version of saying what you said is just help people get paid. You mean, so if you're working with someone, literally just, what do I do? How do I manage? You just help them get paid. Like you've all been paid for the most part other than a couple of new people in the industry. So you know how to get paid. Just teach that. Start there. You know what I mean? And my focus is always if I'm going to talk to someone and bring them on, all my job is to help them get paid. I'm not worried about helping them get rich yet. That, that can come later. Right now, just help them get paid. And when they get paid once, help them get paid again. And then teach them how to get paid faster, more frequently. You know what I'm saying? And slowly manage things. We've just kept that mentality of just help people get paid. Every time I talk to you, I'm like, how can I help her get paid more? That's it. You know, and that, that's, that's helped. And the other thing that you have that most people don't have that I think everyone should have is like And we use words like, that sounds crazy. But think about the amount of people that have done stuff like that already in the world.

You know what I mean?

Like someone rolled out of bed one day and was like, yo, I should develop this office complex. And he fucking did it. And then someone like me bought it. You know what I mean? It's not that uncommon. Every time I see like a skyscraper in downtown or a $200 million building, I'm like, someone literally one day went, I should put a building there. And they went and fucking did it. You know what I mean? Like, it is that simple. So anything you can envision, like, one, probably someone else already damn done it. You know? One of the things in my staff meetings, I'll be thinking— I'm a big idea guy. And I'll be thinking of different things. And we'll go like, whatever the thing is I'm thinking of, I'll be like, we'll research it. We'll look into it. I don't know if anybody's— if that exists yet. I'm like, one thing I know with certainty, I'm definitely not the first person to ever have this idea. Someone's done it. Let's just go find it. Whether it's a new system or a way to approach something or how to solve a problem we have, I'm like, someone has thought of this or had the issue before. And I'm just a big believer for everybody. Like, if everyone else out there in the world can do it, why the fuck can't we? You know what I mean? And some of y'all have to continue to have that belief that you don't currently have. And I just don't think anybody else is that much more amazing other than execution of stuff. And maybe certainly they got some advice and some ideas and people gave them a hand and helped them and mentored them, all those things. But everyone has access to that stuff. So I appreciate you sharing. You had a question though, bro, a minute ago. I know I messed—

I was touching on that right now. You were saying somebody can't believe. You help them envision all that stuff. And my question was, at what point do you start doing that? And what does it sound like? And I think you're doing it like right now.

Yeah, so like, did you play sports? Yeah. I had a feeling. I mean, you look pretty fucking jacked. What'd you play? Football. What position?

Wide receiver.

OK, were you any good?

Yeah.

OK. Do you remember how long did you play? I played for like 7 years. Okay, till through what age? So maybe I think it was started like, did you play in high school?

No.

You quit before that? Good point. Cool. Did you get injured or just didn't like it? Uh, kind of, kind of fell out of love with the sport. Did you? Did you play any other sports? Basketball. After or before? Uh, during like, during the same time frame? Okay, cool. Do you remember like at wide receiver when you're playing around all kinds of other people, there's like the whistles and the coaches and the parents yelling and all the stuff. And remember when like the quarterback throws the ball and it's in the air? Do you remember what you hear then?

Nothing.

Zoned out.

Isn't that wild? Right? And like when you're in this environment and you're new, and you're making phone calls right now, but do you— I don't know if you remember when you were brand new, like your first day of practice, and you hear all the noise. Does that make sense? You hear all the chaos and you're like, "Go to this hole and go to the A gap and all the stuff, all the words and the terminology and slants and route and post and in route and all the stuff." And you're like, "Ah!" But with time, remember how long the ball was in the air? It like just was going— it's like in slow motion. Does that make sense? Do you know why it got that way? I was only focused on that. Yep, combined with what else? It wasn't your first time catching a ball.

No.

Right? What did you have along the way? Lots of practices, lots of games. Practice, games. Lots of reps. It happens so many times that everything slows down. Does that make sense?

Yep.

This business is going to be exactly like that journey. To Caitlin versus you right now. The insurance ball's in the air. All you hear is the noise. Everybody over there in the corner yelling at you all the shit to do, and your brain's like, what the fuck? Does that make sense? Where she can hear that and go, got it, go. It's just, it's more clear. Everything slows down. The ball looks bigger. You ain't worried about the dude that's trying to defend you, you— none of the noise matters. The whole thing slows down. Does that make sense? So if you can understand that as you're going through this journey, you will eventually feel that same feeling here. Does that follow? But without the reps. And when you messed up on the field, what happened when you got off the field? Right. So now the difference is here you mess up over there, you have a choice on whether or not you go speak to a coach or you curl up in a ball and stay by yourself. But without that coaching, would you ever gotten to the point where you don't hear the noise and everything zones out and you're just in it? You wouldn't get there, right? That's because that's life, dude. It's experience. It's how we get better at anything. Now here, they don't go, show up at 4 o'clock, we got doubles today. Now we have things like this and you showed up, but when you go home, typically we're by ourselves. Maybe you put yourself in an environment where there's a dial session or a Zoom room or something like that, but you just gotta be more proactive in getting the reps in and then come getting advice, watching film, getting coached, getting checked, and not being sensitive about it. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's okay. That's how we get better at football, and that's how we get better at insurance. You know what I mean? And if you can understand that while you're going through the process, it won't be as frustrating to you because it'll be normal. So every time you feel something, I want you to relate it to football and find something in football that feels like this. Does that make sense? When you feel this feeling here, go like, oh, I remember in football when I felt that way, and here's how I got through that. Yeah, that makes sense. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I just do that, and I can relate. I could find anything about anybody that someone has an experience with in this room that they once sucked at, then became good at, and had gained clarity. You can literally do it with anything. I don't care if you're at a pizza shop flipping pizzas, you can do the same concept. And so it's learning to make people see something they don't currently see. Now my goal is every time he gets hung up on, he's like, you know, that's when I got whacked in the face from a defender. You know what I mean? A linebacker came across and took my chin strap off and I didn't catch the ball, whatever it is. You know what I'm saying? It's just part of the game. You know, there's a lot of negatives in football.

For 7 years, right? So have you grown a team?

Yeah.

I think he said it was like a dozen, 10 agents, something like that.

Okay, so I think that like going back to your question is like when do you start talking to people about that kind of stuff? Like you have the experience now, it's just about implementing that and your people on a day-to-day basis, like pouring into them, like having those conversations constantly. Like it really does help, you know? And I know like there when you're selling recruiting, it's chaos and everything, but there's always that time where you can pour into those people. And that's how you grow.

Yeah, you do have to give people what they don't have naturally. Most people aren't natural leaders. And that's okay. You know what I'm saying? And they are looking. Most people do overthink. Hell, you probably overthink. I definitely overthink. You know what I'm saying? It's like the difference is we overthink things or have fears of things, but maybe do it anyway. Or don't let the things we're overthinking drag on very long. We shorten the window. You know what I'm saying? It's usually the only differences because we're all jacked up. They just see it different. I'm like, Brahma's messed up and has as many fears as you do, especially when I was new. Like, dude in the back, I forget his name again. He was sitting out back. He'd been here like a month. He's like, how long you been? I'm like, I've been 12 years. He's like, holy shit. Like, I've been doing it for 400. You know what I mean? But that's a normal reaction in insurance because how few people make it 12 years? I mean, it's not common. But dude, I remember being sitting out there in the back of someone's office making phone calls just trying to figure this shit out like it was yesterday. And it's like that's normal. So it's like one of the things I've learned to do for sure is— and I've said it a couple of times, but the way I term it is like to normalize things. You know what I mean? So all the fears that people have, you know them all, all the places people get stuck, it's just like, you just gotta make that normal. It's a normal part of the process. You know what I'm saying? Again, imagine you go play football and you expect to never get hit. That'd be weird. Imagine you, you know what I mean? Like, so it's like, why do we expect to come in this and never have people hang up on us or cancel or like, why? 'Cause someone didn't help normalize that.

The expectations weren't set like off the rip, you know, like when, when you bring somebody in and like, I, you know, I, I know that for myself because when I came into the business, like, I thought it was going to be easy.

Like, I really did.

Like, I, my first, my first dial day, I was sitting on my like apartment floor, like just next to the couch, and I thought I was gonna call these leads and they're gonna be like, yep, sign me up. I thought it was gonna be easy and I got torn into. I was crying. I was like, what did I get myself into? I just quit my job. Like, you know, I was terrified. But it's because the expectation wasn't set for me. Um, there's people that can get over that, you know. Like, I had to get over it. Like, get over it, whatever, you know. It, it's— this can't be easy if it's worth it.

That's how I had to think about where, where do people that are building get stuck with something very similar, you in concept.

Same thing. So, um, and every single one of you guys will hit that point. You're probably there already. The— it's the spot where, um, it's hard to explain because it happens right before you hit, like, I'd say like a million, you know.

I'm saying even in terms of like where you said like, I expected to call the leads and every one of them to say yes. A lot of people building expect to talk to every recruit, have everyone of them say yes, and then come in and sell a bunch of insurance and off to the races. I have a giant team next week. I mean, that's definitely not reality, you know what I mean? And what I've learned is like, it's very funny to watch the parallels between selling and building and the managers that are building have the same frustrations just in different ways as the agents they're mad at. Does that make sense? Like the agent gets mad that they get hung up on or they invest in leads and it didn't work out or convert or that the chargeback and they didn't expect that it should be that and they lose their mind and all that shit. But then as builders, we're mad when we put money into ad spend to recruit and the recruit doesn't sell right away. Or we invest leads in them and they don't stay or they quit on us. Or we send them to an event and pay for this or pay for that and they quit. Or we have roll-up debt. I mean, like, we do the same fucking thing. And I'm like, you're mad down here when the agent does it, but you're doing the equivalent of it up here. That's what I see that holds most back. And I'm like, when that clicked for me, that I was getting mad at the concept was the same thing I was getting mad at I was doing. I was like, oh my God. Like, what the hell? And there's parallels the whole way.

You know? The— what do we call it? The point, the turning point, or like the— what did you call it up there? You said— The one point that people will get to that they'll quit, they're right there and sometimes they'll quit.

I think it's like we were— I think we were talking about the investment part at that point.

Oh, the fruit comes later.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very big delayed gratification side on the building side for sure, you know, meaning you can buy leads and go sell today and get paid tomorrow. You're not going to recruit me and get me started and get paid, get an override tomorrow. That ain't typically how it works, you know? And if it does, it's a one-off and it does take a lot of investment. And I always learned like selling insurance is your job and recruiting is the business and you have to use the job to fund the business. And most people aren't willing to do that. They use the job to fund their lifestyle, and they somehow want the business to grow big enough to quit their job. And it's like, think of a business— yeah, think of a business that you can build really without putting capital into it. Rare, if any. I mean, it's not very frequent. And you know the business works because you're making money in it from a personal production standpoint. Then it's like, well, if it's not working on the business side, the question is why? If we know the industry works, why is it not working for you? We must be doing something wrong because the industry's proven a gajillion dollars a year over. I don't know how much insurance is sold, but it's a fucking shit ton. You know what I mean? Every product, every state, every comp type, every system, every— it doesn't matter. You door knock, you phone call, you one-call close, you book appointment. They all work. You know?

Why do you think so many people have trouble doing both?

I think it's a combination of things. One, just like the agent believes the reason they don't sell is because the clients are the leads, most people building believe it's the agent's fault as to why they're not growing. Like, in most cases, you believe it's all your agents are the reason you're not growing. Almost exclusively, the blame is on the agents, you know what I mean? So it's like you miss a sale, we go, well, it's not the client's fault, it's the agent's fault. But a recruit quits or doesn't understand something, you're like, that dipshit. I'm like, wait, you just trained him to take ownership of stuff and now you're blaming him or her. You know what I mean? So I think that's a big piece of it. And I've learned too, like learning how to— properly, like, guide people with such a variety of different personalities and learning styles and communication styles and needs is tough. Like, I always, I always say, like, if you sit with 3 different types of clients, you know, Grandma, you know, a 42-year-old dude whose wife died last year, or a 21-year-old kid. Think of how differently you would speak to each one of them, right? And then go with all your agents. Do you speak as differently to each one of them as you would if they were clients? Typically not. Typically there's one delivery and one way to do things and one way to push. You know, and I had to learn how to— I got a lot of help in learning how to be as dynamic in communicating with different types of people who are very different than me. In fact, I've learned most— you're a rarity in that you sold a lot of insurance and built a big team. That's more rare than you— most people who sell a shit ton of insurance can't manage people because they have expectations that 80 grand, what the hell, you dipshit, just go buy leads and get on the phone. Like, it's not— ah, which— so it's like learning how to have that range, you know.

That comes from trial and error for sure, you know, like learning how to handle people, all different personalities, walks of life. Um, I think that, you know, one really good, um, trait to have is just empathy for other people, like understanding where they came from and like putting yourself in their shoes. That helps a ton because then you can understand where they're coming from and it makes it a whole lot easier for you to not blame them, you know, like, oh, this person. And also selling for me allowed me to never have to worry about—

correct.

Yeah. So I never felt like, oh my gosh, like I have to make sure that these, these 10 agents write policies today so that I get paid. And I never worried about that. I was selling. I didn't need their override to live. And when you get in that spot, that's a different world. Dangerous.

It allows you to say no to people. Oh, you know, it's like, think about how many people you've interviewed over the years. Have you ever said no to anyone? They want to work there. They want to work with you. Have you ever just told someone no? Most people don't. I'm like, I told way more people no than I said yes. Because I was making $500,000 selling. I didn't give a shit. I didn't need them. And I had a mentality much like clients. When you call clients, we typically know that they have a need. People that are good at sales don't go like, do you have a need? Like, we go into it assuming there's a need and we ask what that looks like. Makes sense? Like, your questions are naturally different. So many of you have asked if there's an option for more access, more direct coaching. And so we've created a coaching platform called the Winner's Circle where you have a couple of different options. There is a one-on-one option. To where we can work directly with you on a regular basis. And then there's a small group setting, 4 to 6 people, really high achievers looking to get to just a new level in their career. We've had a ton of success in this already. First month, actually, the first guy that joined deposited $7,500, worked with them back and forth one-on-one. The very next month, he deposited over $30,000. So basically a 5x return on his income in 30 days. So if you're looking for something like that, you can click on the link below, get get access to an application because I'm not taking everybody. I do want to make sure it's a good fit for both of us. And if we feel like you'd be a good fit, we'll set up a one-on-one call directly with me, um, and kind of go through your struggles, what you need help with, and what I expect of people that are joining the coaching program. Um, so if you feel like it'd be a good fit for you and something you want more of, click the link below and we'll see you on the other side. Welcome to the Winner's Circle. Right, so when you're working with potential recruits, I also understand they need me way more than I need them. So my questions are naturally different because I don't need them to make a living. She doesn't need them to pay her bills, you know what I'm saying? But when you're like here and your bills are hitting, when you're like just getting by or you're maintaining your lifestyle, you see an agent, your eyes light up and you're like, ah, whatever I gotta do to get them in, you know what I'm saying? Your questions are different. No different than when he's on the phone trying to make a sale because he's new. It's going to be different. But I heard you over there in the corner. You're like, I mean, what would it be like? Do you really want to leave your family with— you only got this, this $5,000 in the bank. What would that be like if you pass away? Do you really want to leave them like that? Right? Because you understand no matter what. The questioning is different as you've gained experience in the industry. You know, and I think when you start selling a bunch. And the other thing is like, think about how Maybe y'all look at what she's accomplished, right? And— or anybody that's at some level of success, and you have that little bit of feeling like, oh, and you're saying this up there, like she did it because of whatever. She has some innate ability, she's superpower, she got it handed to— whatever it is you think. But there's typically this gap of separation on where you see someone above you and where you believe you can get. You know, now keep in mind the people you hire have that also, right? So if she's selling $60 grand and you're selling $20 and you feel that gap, they also feel that gap. So if you're selling $10, $15, $20 grand and these people think you're the shit, their belief level is going to be like, I can probably only sell $3 or $4 grand. They're not going to believe they can because they don't believe they can get there. So if you set the bar up here It's a lot easier to go like, dude, I'm like, I can teach my dog to sell $20 grand a month in this business, and I believe it with everything I have. Just send them around the neighborhood with enough notes on his little collar with the pricing. Eventually people will pick, pick some product, you know what I mean? I don't think it's that deep. 10-year-olds sell Girl Scout cookies by the billions in this country.

Every time.

I don't think sales is that complicated. And so what I was always taught is like, your people are going to do half of what you do. And typically half of what you do, if you ain't getting by, they're going to need a job. So this opens up the gate to something you can't even physically see. Now every once in a while you get a rarity. Someone's got some money coming into the business. They don't necessarily have to do that. And they know how to hold their weight and teach people. But it's so rare. Most of us, you go out and kill it, it'd be insane. The change in which people are attracted to you, listen to you, take your advice. You know what I mean? They'll be willing to go through more to achieve what you're achieving. And I would, I dicked around. I don't know how long you, before you, you sold a lot, but you didn't do both recruiting right away. You delayed. I was doing both. But it took me 3 years before I started selling a lot. So I got to see a crazy shift in the way people viewed me. Does that make sense? Because I was doing it, I was, I was building, quote unquote, for 3 years. I just didn't get any traction because everyone was like, why would I listen to you? You're still not making any money, bro.

You know?

So, um, do you have specific questions or stuff you want us to touch on specifically? I don't— obviously I want to let y'all be able to dial in. She's bouncing in an hour and a half. Yeah, go for it, dude. Would you say that a lot of people inability to move forward, whether it's in the sales process or growing, stems from a lot of how they personally feel? 100%. Yeah. People always have the— we're— I don't know if we talked about the what-if thing down here. We were talking about up there, but it's like emotions mess you up, dude. Think about any situation in life you're annoyed with. It's typically due to your expectations of that situation or that person is why you're frustrated, you know, and your emotions attached to that situation. Anybody in here ever let their emotions spiral them the fuck out of control? So this is normal everyday human stuff, you know. And then when you think of anything new, most people are uncomfortable with new stuff. It's like a giant dark tunnel we're walking into, right? And so most people are built where they have fears around things that are unknown or uncomfortable to them. So then what do we do internally? If I have fears of stuff or unknown and I walk it, meaning let's pretend it's pitch black right now and I go, hey, follow me into this tunnel. What's going to start happening in your head? Freak out. Always worst case scenario, you're freaking out, like, what the hell's in there? Oh my God, is it— am I going to fall off? Is it going to be slimy? Is there going to be an animal? Like, all this stuff, right? So I think it's understanding that that's one, that's normal. So it's like, okay, and but logically, if I'm like, dude, it's just a dark tunnel, we go fucking 200 yards, bro, and it's just the other side of the tunnel, it's nothing, you just follow me. You'd be like, oh, got it. Most people can swallow that and go, oh, that fucking makes sense, and go in. You know what I mean? So it's like, just like sales, you get them to make that decision through emotion, and then they keep it with the logic, right? So I have to play that game with people too, is go like, understand the emotional part is normal, but I have to like play logic with them sometimes too, you know, and get them to see what they're doing. And I've learned That peop— What the hell is that? Is the door open? Is that what happened? Oh, got it. I'm like, that got weird. People in their head start to go, what if? And then they insert negative words. Almost 100% of the time, damn near 100% of the time. It's like the dental thing. 99.9% of dentists recommend this thing. It's like 99.9% of the time people go, what if something negative comes out of their mouth? Right? And so logically, I can— she did it upstairs. She literally was doing it on the damn podcast going like, what if this, what if that, what if this, what if that? And I'm like, all right. So, and you learn how to do things as you go on and communicate with people. You learn what works and what doesn't. And I I'm always like, all right, so fair to say everything after the what if was completely made up. Like if we're walking into a dark tunnel and you go, what if, it's literally all made up. There's nothing true about your fears and your anxieties in the moment. You're making them up. Fair?

Fair.

Okay, so if we're gonna make them up, can't we make up good shit? Like if we're making it up anyway, Like, can we just try it the other way? You know what I mean? Because so far what you're doing typically hasn't worked out. So all the fears you all have, like, how they working so far? Wouldn't be here if they were working amazing. So can we just for a little while try it the other way? So every time you say what if and you think negative, okay, you're going to do it. You're natural. I still do it. Catch it and insert something positive. What if they hang up on me? Ah, what if they pick up and buy? Can we just try it? You know what I'm saying? And I just kind of try to work with that, dude, and slowly try to get people to learn different and just be logical about stuff, dude, because we are— we're emotional creatures, you know? And this is a very— you play this game logically Crazy stuff can happen. I mean, it's insane the amount of wealth that's built in this business from just everyday people, dude. You know, I get to be in some really cool rooms and it's wild. Some of the wealthiest people in this industry, good old country boys, grew up on a farm, freaking milking cows in the middle of nowhere, just had no business being as wealthy as they are. But just logically, they just didn't let all the stuff slow them down. They're just like, eff it. Why not me? Let's go through it. Let's fight through the stuff. And then I just try to relate it, make it, again, where something else where if I can get them where I have them feel that fear in the past and they got through it somewhere, I'm just like, oh, this is just like that. It's the same shit. And get them to foresee stuff they don't see. Again, just you've driven through a tunnel before with the lights on. It's the same shit. Just today the lights are off. We're just going to go to the other side, dude. It's no big deal. You know, and I just try to make everything no big deal, no big deal. I got it, makes sense, but no big deal. Let's come down, you know. You will be a mother-effing psychologist in this business, which you deal with it. The door-to-door is same. You're dealing with a lot of the same stuff, you know. You're just going to have to— a lot of that will correlate really well, you know. Only thing you're gonna have to learn is this terminology, but the concept is people are people. Communication, communication, you know what I mean? If you can manage that many people well, you'll still be able to manage them well over here. So help? Cool. What else you guys got?

Mike, you got one?

Yeah, I think I saw one.

Yeah.

Thanks for having us.

You got it, dude.

So I came into this a couple months ago, love the system. 2 weeks ago, and we built up a team, so I guess just transitioning into this, what would be your advice for my situation? As you said, a lot of it's going to transfer, so much skill mindset, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had a, uh, decent-sized team, so about this close to just like transitioning everybody over.

Mm-hmm.

And so I guess, how would you do that with the least amount of bloodshed and collateral damage?

Define bloodshed and collateral damage to me. What do you mean by that?

Making sure that we like, I don't waste like human capital bringing them over and then maybe I'm still like kind of, what's the balance of like making sure, because I also want to lead from the front, I want to make sure I can teach these guys how to do it. Yeah, but obviously Kate's been great. She got— she's— and she said, look, I'm going to help you build this thing up.

Yeah.

And so, um, but not, you know, but obviously when people believe in you, they trust you.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, look, I'll take it. Let's do this. And then of course with that mindset, they're expecting it to be similar, at least work out the way they would expect.

Yeah.

So I want to make sure I don't waste that, like, human—

yeah, yeah. How many, how many people do you have selling over there?

So I had a team of 4 or 500, 450 or so.

Okay.

So, yeah.

Do they know you're doing this yet?

I mean, I made it public last week on my Instagram videos.

So not to them.

Got it.

Yeah.

So it's kind of weird.

Most of your close guys, you mean?

My close guys.

They all know. Yeah.

It's almost like mafia when you leave the store.

I understand. So is the insurance, to be clear?

Yeah.

100%. So you're going to fit in well.

See, it's— so which is—

is it run by a few people up at the top?

Exactly. It's like they're trying everything they can to make sure that nobody would be—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'll challenge you a little bit, and I'll give you the answer, and I'll challenge you a little bit to look at it differently also. Um, one, I would definitely have a more intimate conversation with your group somehow versus them like, oh shit, on Instagram, because then people go, oh shit, and they get emotional. Does it make sense? So I'm making sure I'm going to communicate like very directly. Here's why I'm going to give people vision. I'm going to give people opportunity. It's going to be about them. It's here's why we're making the transition. I'm going to go through in detail why you're making that choice and how it benefits them. Does that make sense? I'm not going to get insanely into the bullshit politics. I'd leave that But I'd also say, yeah, think about this though. If you think about what is the collateral damage or would you call it human? What's that other word you used?

Human life wasting, human resources.

Cool. I like it. Think about those things. Perfect. I like it. You're really smart. I don't. I'm like people. I got it. Think about all the collateral damage that you just won't see if you don't make the move with all the people that could use you in this industry. Does that make sense? It's like, yeah, because like one of the things as I was building this, you ever like drag someone along because you see potential in people and they just don't do the things they say they're going to do consistently, but they like, I promise this is the time, and then they don't do it again? You know what I mean? Like, and you, you spend a lot of time with someone that didn't work out. I always struggle with that because I want to help people. Now I have the opposite problem as you. Like, you have a lot of empathy by default. I have zero by default. Yeah, like, dude, like zero. I, I have to very intentionally be like, stop being a dick, right? Because I'm— we're just— I'm wired differently. Now there's pros and cons to both. Does that make sense? It's much easier for me to cut someone off than it is for you when you— we both know we should, you know? But it's like, when I learned— when I learned— so it's like we both have to— we both have to change. Yeah, you know, I always learned it's like there's this like line, right? So you got a line over here and you have someone over here is a little softer and someone here's over a little, a little harder, you know what I mean? You really got to live here. Now she's a bit of an exception because it's a lot harder for people to go this way. It's a lot easier to pull someone back, typically, typically, you know, um, but when I learned, like, if he's not putting in everything he's got but I continue to appease him and be a shoulder for him to complain to and be negative to, all the stuff that we just let linger because we're afraid to lose someone, I learned that it caused me to miss her. If I spend too much mental energy here, I shut it down for the night. She calls, I don't pick up. Does that make sense? I spend too much mental energy here, I don't do an interview the next day and find him, right? So I'm willing to watch him drown to allow her to save herself through me, right? And so there's people that are dying for help that you may not see yet. Because you're over here worrying about human capital on some people that may not matter. And I'm not saying all or nothing. Does that make sense? But it's like, if you see the vision here, my advice would be take the jump, be willing to sacrifice some people because not everyone's going to be a perfect fit, and understand it's going to open a way bigger window for you as far as opportunity. Better question, better question. Yeah, yeah. No, it's okay.

I've accepted it. I'm launching full speed. Yep. Like, how systems go. My ultimate goal is to put— isn't a bad goal to say like within 3 years or less, be in a position where integrity would knock down my door?

No, think about like, what do— so I learned a little bit. About— I asked him like 3 questions, numbers. It's like 400 people selling. My understanding is y'all make a couple hundred bucks each one, $300, whatever it is, roughly. Correct. So how many does the average person sell in a month, roughly? You don't know what your person sells on average, each person?

Sells about like 10, 10 a week, 8 to 10 apps a week. Okay, 8 to 10 sales a week.

Cool.

An average sales manager, whatever you call it, agency, we call it owner, would make like, uh, like what, $100 on each sale? About $100.

So you figure— so the average person is making like $7,000 a month?

Oh, it's— yeah, that's like—

it's like probably less.

The average ones, yeah, probably.

So that's your top guys selling that?

Top guys are making probably like $10,000 a month.

Oh God.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and as spread for you guys per sale is what?

Spread for us is, um, roughly per app, like $100.

Okay, so think about this. Our average app's like $1,200. Yeah, even if let's just say there's a— I don't know, what do you want to use? Spread? 20, 20 point? I don't know, average 20%. Yeah, $400. Just has an override. You know what I'm saying? It's like, so imagine you have 50 people selling, I don't know, on average 8 apps a month, which is pretty fucking low. So $400 times 400, you know what I mean? You make $400 a pop, 400 times a month, it's a shitload of money. Yeah, it's 160. $160K just in override money monthly, just getting 400 people to sell mediocre at best. What's, what's the apps? What's the most, the top app count for an individual agent in America?

Annually?

Monthly. Monthly apps. Yeah, number one, roughly. I mean, I see our leaderboard.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So to go 8.

Yeah, I guess I was like, my whole thing is like, I have to accept the fact that I'm going to have to like rebuild, and I don't mind. Like, I don't mind doing the grinding. It's going to take me leave from the front. Okay.

Yeah, it is in a sense, but you have an advantage. I mean, think about this. Let's just pretend for a minute you're not wanting to leave your industry. Right? You just, you know what you know in your industry. I know what I know about my industry. I'm like, cool, I built something dope over here. I just for fun, I'm bored out of my trees, I want to come do what you do. How quick could you teach me to do what you do knowing I've built this over here? I'm not a dipshit. How quick can I make, I don't know, a million bucks?

3 years.

Okay. And I don't even know what I'm doing, you know what I'm saying? Like, but you see an easy path to it. Yeah. So I think in this area, how quick do you think you can get them to make a million bucks if you listen to everything you do? Yes, I agree. I was going to say 12 months, 12 to 18 months max if you listen, you know, passive and with way less people. So for clarity, when I was doing— I had 50 agents. We were doing about $600K a month in production. And on average, well, I'll just tell you, I made $1.8 million that year with 50 people, about 30-point average spread. You know what I mean? If I hire someone new direct to me, I was probably at 40 points because they were new and they— there was no one in the middle. I was like her. I had a lot of people direct to me. I didn't like hire a dude who hired a bunch of people. You know what I'm saying? I hired a shit ton of people direct to me because the spread was bigger. And I'm like, I'll train them. I don't give a shit. I'd rather teach people how to do it and keep a chunk than help him do it and make 5% or 10%. I ain't mad at that model, but I did this also. So I got to multiple 7 figures with 50 agents. And it's like— and then I started teaching people how to do that as well. And that's where the magic came. Now there's less direct revenue in that, but it's a lot more stable. And it's a lot— it gives you a lot more of your time back. As you know, when you can duplicate things, you got him doing what I'm doing it great. I get her doing it as well. Cool. I get 4 of them doing it. It's like we're a machine and I don't even have to get out of bed necessarily with time. So I wanted the time and money. Here I had the money, but I didn't have a lot of time. You know what I mean? Because I was doing everything. That's when I started hiring staff and I started teaching systems and I started teaching duplication. I started going like, hey, who wants to build? Who's willing to do this shit? And I would just teach them every step of the process that got me to 50. I've never taught someone like— we had 6,000 agents last year. Sell a policy. I'm like, I don't teach people how to get 6,000 agents, but I'll teach you how to get 50 and print money. And it's, it's much more like attainable in people's head, you know what I mean? And really, to teach you to get 50, I'm like, can you just hire 10 and get 4 other people to hire 10? Now we're at 50. Like, it can happen really quick, you know?

And in this model I think the biggest thing too, like, for your situation that I struggle with trying to solve for you is there's a lot of people in your industry, your past industry, that they could be good, but it's hard to— it's hard to hold on to them, you know?

It is. I don't know how to—

I don't know how to help them with that because I get it. Like, you build a team 400 people, you want them all to win and you want them to be in a better position, right? But if they want it, they're going to figure it out, you know? Like, it doesn't matter how crappy the system is, you know, they're going to figure it out.

It's like, do you, do you plan on coming here to sell too? Yeah, you are selling currently? Yeah, I'm blind to it all. I don't know, obviously, anybody in the room really. I think you should. Yeah, yeah.

—like, just being here. Plus it's really fun.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it'll allow you to translate a lot easier to people naturally, you know what I mean? Even if you don't have to— I don't know your financial situation, but, you know, even if you don't have to do it, quote unquote, I would for a minute because it'll teach you to experience what they're experiencing.

I told my guys, okay, she's gonna help me out with this.

Yeah. I would, I would rely on her heavily early, you know what I mean? And people's like, everything she's done to be— I mean, again, you want 100 agents, she's done it. I would rely on her for everything. Hey, how would you handle this situation? Like, I, I'm sorry, I would bug the fucking shit out of her, dude. Literally, I would blow her up, but then I would retain the information and put in the action she suggests. I wouldn't keep asking the same thing over and over again. Does that make sense? Y'all with Andy? I would blow him the fuck up every day with new questions, new scenarios, new information. Hey, I had this situation. And you've done this long enough to go, hey, I had this situation. Here's how to handle it over here. Do you advise the same thing over here? There might be variances. You might have to like bridge that gap a little bit. You know what I'm saying? So, it's like see if your thought process is correct. You know?

Is I, I've built this, this agency, but I didn't have to like bring them from something else. I understand. Yeah, so that's where like I equally want to—

but you did bring them from somewhere else because they all had previous jobs, but they weren't like— I got it, but that you're overcomplicating it now. You're not going to convince me it's not the same as them coming from anywhere else.

Yeah, as well, because I know what you should like. James, people like equally want to get in front of them and bring them over and get them into the system. When we lose somebody, we want to know why.

Yeah, you know, but just like y'all lose people there, they don't all stay. This shit's going to— it's— that's not going to change. That's life. That's business, you know what I mean? So it's just accept that's part of it. And for you, I would learn what you can learn here about structure and insurance and all that stuff. You know people, you know what I'm saying? It's just how do you get people to see it and verbalize it, she can speak this language better than anyone else you're going to talk to right now. You know what I'm saying? So I would learn the lingo and how to communicate and how to get people to make it in this space. And it's like, you ever have someone— you ever seen— you ever read Maxwell's Five Levels of Leadership? You read that book? It's the way people view you, right? Scale of 1 to 5. It's really not that deep. Basically, if I talk to somebody that is in one of the buildings down the road, they literally don't give two shits what I do for a living at all. They're just like, he's some dipshit who rents a building next door to us. And I'm like, no, I own it. They're like, oh, I don't even know you. They don't care about me at all. It's like a level 1. They just don't give a shit. You've done nothing for them. You don't affect them. It doesn't matter. But like the way y'all view Andy, or you view her, there's automatically a higher level of belief in that person because of things they've done, right? So you, you're, you're, you're buying into them is different. But if you, if you don't know me at all, the people down the road don't know me at all, and I'm like, yo, and I just did it by mistake because it's whatever, like, yo, Caitlin, she's a fucking beast at A, B, and C, but you don't know her yet, but you know me. And I tell you how amazing she is, how quickly does that change your perspective of her?

Very.

Now, if she does it without me, she just tells— you don't know her and she just tells you how amazing she is. Is that more impactful or less impactful than if I tell you how amazing she is? You have to play that game. If you play that game with like, your people believe in you, they don't quite believe in this. So if you go like, yo, they're gonna— dude, it's gonna change that level of leadership to them. Just, it's the, it's the nature of it, the psychology of it. 100%. Andy Albright's one of the best on the planet at that shit. You know, he was teaching me that 12 years ago, you know, and it's, it's like, it's a very positive way to manipulate the way people view things. You know what I'm saying? And it's for their benefit. So I would do that on purpose. You know?

And we're just going to let the ones that—

Because you have some buy-in. What doesn't have the buy-in is the industry.

That's— So good. I'm glad you're confirming a lot of the things that I've been kind of saying and doing.

Yeah. We've been going back and forth on this.

Because in my head, when I recruit people now, I'm like, literally, you got to— there's this girl, Kate, that I met, right? Yeah. She's this. She's that.

Hey, think about this, like, hey Reese, how many times have we put out like, hey, we have an event at my office. How many of these people ever been? Caitlin says come, y'all all come. It's not that deep. It's just the psychology of it all. You know what I mean? And so it's learning to be really intentional with the way you communicate with people. And again, Maxwell's one of the best. I've just studied people that do this stuff, and there's people in the industry that have scaled these businesses this way, and they've just taught it. It's not like I've like made this up. I'm not that smart, but I can go like, oh, that fucking makes sense, and execute it, you know. So you should rely on that and her ability to teach people that come from all walks of life to have success here. Your industry is just another walk of life. It's no different than when she found him, or this one, or that one. It's no different. You know what I mean? They have a past, they have a family, they want to take care of their bills, they want to have a good living. You know what I mean? They're just looking for direction, you know, and she can provide it no matter where you come from. So that's, that's going to be your biggest— that's going to capture the most people, knowing they ain't all coming, dude. And some— someone over there is going to be reeling them in the opposite of that. He's a dipshit, insurance sucks, Caitlin doesn't know what she's doing. You mean you're gonna fight that? It's like, it is what it is, dude.

Correct. I mean, that like provides us a lot of clarity because, yeah, you know, I obviously like, with my personality, I obviously want to help and bring everybody there, but it is also like, I'll watch him and I'm like, we can't spend this much time.

Correct. Because imagine what y'all can do. Here's Here's why I like—

'Cause he's great on the phones too. I mean, he's super personable. Yeah. Like you hear this man on the phone, it's like everybody stays on the phone with him 'cause he's hilarious. Yeah. So it's like, there's the money there too. You know, it's like you can be making money leading from the front, showing your guys how to do it, and then new people are gonna come in.

And then leaning on the fact that like, it's not going to be as hard to recruit. Like what it took me to get to 500 people— Correct. I had to take my ass out to get that.

Yeah. And there's a lot of value in having like a right-hand person or being that to someone. You know, when I came into the business, the dude that was mentoring me had the agency. And I always tried to figure out how I could add value to his agency. You know, in turn, certainly he added value to mine. But because we became kind of like one and we were on the same page, we were very different personality-wise. He was like empathetic. He was good with people. He said like 3 words and could get a powerful point across. I have to talk for 4.5 hours and give 27 analogies, you know what I mean? Like, I'm analytical. I understand numbers. He was like, he can't turn on a computer. He doesn't know how to log into fucking America. He didn't know. He didn't know any of that stuff. But he was so powerful in these other areas. So I'm like, what if I add value over here? I take his advice in one area, but I add value over here. And we kind of became like one unit. And so as the agency was growing, we would pass the same messages. We might deliver them slightly differently because we're different people, right? But our thought process and the direction and where we wanted to go as a team was one. So no— and you've had it with teams where I go like, hey, what's the question? I have a question. And you tell me this answer and I don't like her answer. So I go to you because I get a different answer. If you got kids— I don't know if y'all have kids. It's like the mom-dad thing. You go to mom for some things and dad for different things because you know you're going to get different answers, right? If you all can get on the same page, it's deadly to have 2 or 3 or 4 people on the same page build something because when the messaging is always the same, eventually people will be like, oh, I guess it's— oh shit, I guess it's me. You know what I mean?

And everything about what you said about like serving and just edifying her, it's just been the best thing. Yeah.

Yeah. And she'll naturally do it back. And when it's— not that it's inauthentic, but when it's— when you have a chance to build a relationship over time and it becomes very fluid. Oh, dude, we built a machine because it was just one message all the time. That's why y'all— your team is always the same messaging. It's always— you know what I mean? There's the buy-in from all the— Paul, all the guys that have been there for years, they all have the same buy-in level. You know, different styles, different personalities, but everyone's on the same page.

You know, I think that's the most powerful thing is being on the same page. I mean, we have some people in our agency that never will be on the same page.

Correct. That's hard.

I mean, I think that's cool. That's where my heart is, like, to see Casey's agency grow and like, just be like, you know, it's probably— it's literally from the beginning. We're in both the same machine.

Yeah, well, we're on the same page all the time. Time. I mean, Mike and I have been on the phone with, with someone before where we were both— we didn't even know we were having this call. We were both completely on the same page. And then the guy gets off the phone and we call each other, we're like, I mean, isn't that cool that like we both were on the same page with this? You know, like to the point where it's like there was no other— there's no nothing else for him to say.

Yeah, correct. Just being like, dude, okay, like, yeah, what should I do? I think I lean on my own, like, experience, you know?

And again, with time it'll—

yeah, I try to solve issues.

Even if it's checking, that's why I said like, hey, I'm thinking this, is that right? You know what I mean? And so what my goal was, I was, I was working with this dude Mike, I would always be like, what would Mike do? Here? And I would think about it. And I'd try to process it the way he did. The more I worked with him, I'm like, "I wonder if I can solve it. How would..." Because I want to like take the guy and bash his head against the wall. Mike definitely wouldn't do that. How would he approach this? You know what I mean? And I would try to think about it. And then I'd call him and be like, "Yo, I got this situation. This agent did this." I'm thinking you're going to say this. And the more I did it with time, the more he's like, "Yeah, dude. You're good. You got it exactly right." At the beginning, he's like, no, bro, that ain't at all what I would do. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, oh, why? And I wanted to understand not to argue, but to understand his thinking and his thought process and the angle. Like he's a very patient person. Like if I got something going on, I want to handle it right now. Like if I'm having an issue, I want to pick up the phone, call it, handle the issue now. Mike's like, nah, let that shit play out 2 days. Why? I'm like, he's like, bro, they'll cool down. They'll start thinking about it different. This— you don't know what pieces are moving behind the scenes. You know what I mean? It's like he's like, "Chill. Just relax a couple days." And I'm like, "Well, I want to do it now." And with time— Correct. But dude, you don't know how many times a situation would happen. I'd be like, "All right. Let me step back. Let me go to the gym." You know what I mean? "Let me go. Just give me a minute." And dude, something would play out that I just never saw coming. And I'm like, "You fucking wizard. How did you—" just he had more experience with people than I did. You know what I'm saying? And that's my biggest issue was impatience and the delivery during a time of impatience. So I had to learn that piece from him. And that was with time. And I still to this day, I'm like, what would Mike do? Shit. Because I have people in my world that you know that are like, let's go. I don't call him, right, for that moment because I know he's going to be like, fuck yeah, use a chainsaw and cut his head off. You know what I mean? I'm like, ah, yes, he'll validate it. You know what I mean? I'm like, uh-oh, now there's time. Now there's definitely times I know I should call him because he'll be like, he'll help me bury the body and do all this, whatever, you know. Or if I need to solve a problem now, he'll knock it out now. But you know, so you've got to understand your strengths and weaknesses and understand that if you can play them against each other, it creates a, it creates a fuller pie, if you will. You know what I'm saying?

I guess my question is, um, you know, like, we're trying to build something while we're at our platform. Yeah. How would you know in both platforms take what you know from this industry, from, from this? Yeah. From what we got going on, it's just like, like, what, what would be your next steps if you were in our shoes, um, of what to execute next? What would you be working on if you were us?

Yeah, I think that, I mean, I don't think the platforms are wildly different, to be honest. I mean, ours spawned out of yours. Not that deep. I think everyone knows that at this point. I think what the difference is here and in our world, it was a culture of personal production at a very high level. You know, I mean, you come into our world, You ain't doing $40 grand, you're not even in the conversation. There's nothing to talk about sales-wise if you ain't doing $40 grand. You just don't work enough, period. You got to lead, you got to start it.

So it's on. Fuck yeah, it's on y'all.

Do you know how much insurance— Sean started this company and he was in the field selling $80 grand a month, starting a company. It's very easy for him to go, no offense, I'm running the fucking company selling 3 times, 4 times, 5 times as much as you. Cut it out. Let's go. It's really easy to have those conversations when you're walking the walk.

Well, there's some crazy shit that like, I guess, when like when you started doing that, like you went from like, let's just say $10,000 a month to like $50,000, $60,000, $80,000, $100,000. What are some things that I guess you had to do some sacrifices, if you will? Can you give some examples of things?

I mean, the stuff to do was easy. I called more people. I prospected more. This business is all about prospecting and presenting. That's the business. Fair? Is there anything deeper than that? We prospect and we present. I don't give a shit where you get the clients. Leads, great. People you know, great. Walk out the fucking door. There's 400 million people in the country. There's plenty of people to prospect. You can find people anywhere. Does that make sense? Um, what I had to sacrifice— think about Again, how many appointments a week do you run presentations? Okay, so in my world, 15 or 20— for the top producers doing 15 or 20 a day scheduled, they're trying to, they're not executing because people get no-show, all the stuff. But 15 in a week is laughable in my world. You'd be laughed out of the room. Does that make sense? Or told to expect it to suck. It's never going to get better. It just is what it is. You know what I mean? And we're not trying to be the 95% close ratio people. Who cares? We're just trying to present to enough people to get the— to get the result we want, you know? And we have a culture of we will run through that fucking wall to make it happen, right? Many other people have a culture of just do it a little bit whenever you want, whenever it's convenient for you. Around the soccer games and the barbecue, just whenever you want to work, just work. No, no, we don't care. We're going to collect our 80 points and just, y'all, just whatever you want to do, just do. Fair? That's— I don't understand that world. Like, we're trying to make the NFL Draft. Y'all are playing pickup flag football on Saturday with whoever shows up, right? The approach is going to be different. You get hammered on Friday night and roll out of bed and you show up 45 minutes late to the game, no one cares. You try and make the NFL Draft, that ain't how you go about your weekend. Does that make sense? It's just— it's the approach that's different. And so when your approach is different, it's going to be really hard for people with a different approach with time to walk into that. Building it was a bitch. Okay. So— Oh my God. Everyone fought. I remember when Sean first— I'll give you perspective. When I was in— probably it was 20— probably 2014, first year we were in business. We left that joint and we're here. The first time I sold— first of all, the first time I sold $5,000 ever in a week, I was part-time. I swear they threw a parade for me. It was like, "Oh my God!" Right? It was like the biggest noise ever. And then when I did it like a few weeks in a row, which again, 4 weeks in a row is only $20 grand and you only keep $15 of it. You only put $12 of it in your bank account and then you gotta spend $3 of it on leads. There's no money. Fair? So we are very honest about that. It just is what it is. You're not going to make an incredible living without it. I remember the first time that Sean started talking of normalizing, which I talked about earlier, writing 10 grand a week. Do some of the most elite producers were like, you can't do that. Oh my, no, that can't be done. Mark was like, got it, 10 grand a week like clockwork. How? Fucking more appointments. It wasn't that deep. Like, the average guy sells 10 whatever Verizon plans a month, or whatever he said. How do they sell 20? They prospect twice as much. It's not that deep. Does that make sense? Can you get skill set better? Sure. But that's not the biggest lever to pull. Does that make sense? It's very incremental. Now, that works over time very good. But in the short run, going like, "Say this and you're twice as good." That doesn't work very good in the short term. But like, "Make twice as many phone calls." That works really good right now. You know, so we just normalize, dude, that we're going to do whatever it takes. To sell 10 grand a month because that's the kind of money you need to make to make it. Yeah, 10 grand a week, that's the kind— that's what you need to sell to make a good living. You can't make a good living otherwise. 10 grand, 10 grand a week, 500 G's a year selling, maybe 400 stays on the books. First year you get advanced 75% of that, you're putting 300 in your pocket, you know what I mean? 50 G's on leads, you're netting 250. That's a good fucking living. What up, y'all? Officially releasing my book. You can go on and order it now at JohnWetmore.com or click the link below. It's where I go over the 6 basic principles I implemented to go from a struggling agent for my first couple years to issuing nearly half a million bucks a month. Then go through stories and examples and exercises that you can do to implement for yourself. Appreciate it. Again, JohnWetmore.com, get yours. Later.

You know what I'm saying?

And then you— zero team, correct? Zero team.

So, you know, and so that, that you doing that only allows people to see that you can do it, and that's why they follow you. Yeah, like they just— I mean, I, I was telling him there is no way I would have built the business that I have today if I did not lead from the front, correct? Yeah. And some people still don't believe me. They still don't. Like, they're like, oh, she must have special leads, or she did People will always think that.

Oh, like always something.

No, there was no advantage that I had over anybody else in this business. Actually, I came with less money than probably a lot of people did, and I just sold my way into a leadership role. That's what I did. I failed, failed, failed, got back up, failed, failed, failed, got back up, and found people to join me. So it's like, if you're not setting that standard, they're not going to to do it.

They just won't. So to answer the question about the sacrifice, think about all the things you're doing instead of running 40 a week. Yeah. Instead of the 15 a week you're doing, your personal situation. Think about all the stuff you do instead, instead, whatever that is, right, wrong, and different. There's no wrong answer. But if you think about, I'm doing 15— how many days a week do you sell?

Probably 2 to 3 days.

Okay, so 4 to 5 days off, you don't sell, and you're a salesperson for a living. 4 or 5 days a week, you don't sell, and you're a sales guy for a living. I'm just bullshit. Yeah. Do you think 4 or 5 days a week people in the NFL don't play football? No. Does that make sense? 4 or 5 days a week as a salesperson, you don't sell. You know what I mean? Like I— are you okay with saying I'm a sales guy but I only sell 2 days a week? Yeah. What is it? Does that make you full-time or part-time? Part-time. Sometimes. Correct. It's like a hobby, dude. You know what I'm saying?

So it's like chaos for sure. It's chaos when you're growing and selling at the same time. It's absolute chaos, but it's for a short amount of time. I mean, we talked about it. It was about a year and a half. Where I felt like I was going to die. Like, every day I was— my head was like spinning. Every day I was like a chicken with her head cut off. Like crazy. Like, sale, recruit, sale, recruit, sale, recruit, repeat, rinse, repeat. Didn't sacrifice my daughter's— my time with my daughter. But now I wouldn't trade it for the world. Yeah, like a year and a half. Like, you can't do that for a year and a half. Like, you absolutely can do that for a year and a half to have to Net, 200 grand a month.

You 100% can do that. All right, so we're 2 or 3 days a week, 15, call it 3 week, 3 day, 3 days. That's 5 people a day you present to. Of 5, how many are actually there? Or that are long presentation, not like a 3-minute thing like over there? Um, say 3. Okay, so you're 2 times a day making a 30, 45-minute hour presentation. It's a couple hours a day. I mean, it's like, all right, so we got 24 hours in a day. How many do you need to sleep? It is what you pick, right? So we got— even if you sleep 8 and you're spending 3 selling, I mean, I'm like, we got like 12, 13 hours left in a day that you're currently doing something with. That's what you need to sacrifice. In order to get to the next level, whatever those things are. The difference is they're different for everybody. Everybody does different shit. You got to figure out what it is you're doing with that time, make a list of it, and go, what am I willing to get rid of to add the stuff over here? Because you add that many more appointments, you will get— you will have to get rid of stuff, you know what I mean? So for me personally, I sacrificed, quite frankly, being home a lot. Fuck, I'm still— I still travel a shit ton. But I'm trying to build an empire, you know, and I enjoy it now. It's mentally a lot easier today than it was then. I mean, I can get on a plane now. It's like bougie as shit. And first, I go eat dope dinners and stay at a nice hotel. It's like, it's not hard anymore. But I still have to be away because I choose to. But like, for me, I was field sales. So I was gone 3 to 4 days a week. Like I wasn't home that day. Family, you may as well assume I'm not going to be here on these days. That's what we wanted. You know what I'm saying? And then when you added the recruiting side, when we were at baseball games, soccer games, school, I was on the phone a lot. You know what I mean? I'd be pacing out in the outfield watching Maddox play, but I'm on the phone recruiting someone, training someone, taking psychology for someone. You know what I mean? I'm doing all that stuff. You know? But I gave up sports. I played flag football till I was 35 years old. Like, as a grown— I made fun of it a minute ago. I played from the time I was 20 till I was 35. Every Sunday I played flag football for 15 straight years, all year long. This is what I did as a hobby. I drank a lot. I slept in a lot. I watched a shit ton of sports on TV, and I would watch junk TV, Survivor and all that kind of crap. You know what I mean? I literally was like, I looked at it, what worked for me. I'm a numbers guy, I'm a math guy, and I like looking at opportunity costs, you know, and I would see, I learned what I was making on average per appointment, call it, right? And then I went, how many appointments can I run during a football game? 3-hour football game. I'm like, yeah, I can easily run 3 or 4 appointments. And if I run 4 appointments, I'm gonna pick up 2 apps. At that stage, I knew how to sell. You know what I mean? I could close half. It's not that deep. So I'm like, yo, football games cost me 2 G's to watch. I ain't watched football since. Rare. I just don't care. It wasn't worth 2 grand for me to sit on my ass on a Saturday and watch 3 games. You know what I'm saying? I just mentally was like, What am I doing? So I made that— made an active choice that that stuff didn't matter to me anymore. And changing my family's financial situation mattered more. You know what I mean? And I did it like she said for— I went on a tear, dude, for like 18 months, 2 years. Put a million bucks in my pocket on my own pen. Started recruiting and hiring people and teaching them how to do it. And before I knew it, I was out in the field just teaching that basic concept. You know what I'm saying? It's like, so yeah, and that's the only difference between mental— the, the— you said plat— I don't believe it. I think it's a thought process where we can go out and kill it in this industry and print money. And now today, in today's world, 40, 50 G's is nothing. Our top writer every month, our top 5 every month are over $100 grand a month, every single month on their own pen. Every single month I have top 5 over $100 grand We have—

Steve, do you know how he does like $120,000 a month?

Yeah, just in my group. I'm saying their numbers, you know what I mean? Like, we probably have, fuck, dude, 500 people a month minimum doing over $20,000. Minimum 500 people a month. It just became normal. Just curious, what's their lead spend for the ad? A lot. Yeah, dude, I always say it's probably 20-25% of what you want to make. I mean, they're probably— yeah, they're— I bet— I mean, I know guys dropping 3-4%. Yeah, they're definitely— I know people spending 3— yeah, I know people spending 3, 4, 5 G's a week. You're going to put a couple grand in. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Especially early. As you build up and get back in money and get better and start getting referrals and things, you know what I mean? It certainly lowers. You know, I always go like, people look at lead spend or profitability early on. Yeah, think about my lead spend, my personal lead spend relative to income today. I bought a personal lead in 7 years, but I wouldn't have what I have today without the lead spend I spent then. Does that make sense? That personal production, that— and same as the backend money y'all don't see. You see, I spend money on leads. I made this deposit today. I saw I spend money on leads, I make deposit today, I get back-end money later, then I get renewals, then I get recruits, then I get overrides, then I get back-end money on overrides, then I get renewals on overrides.

And that's right where people will quit because they're not seeing it right there. And if you could push past that point, you, you won't regret it. I mean, that, that is exactly what we were talking about earlier, and that's right where it is, where you're not seeing the fruits of your labor until a little bit later. And if you can just push past through that uncomfortable spot where you're like, shit, is this gonna work, you know? And you can push past it, and then all of a sudden it works, and you're like, it's flowing.

It's actually— y'all have, y'all have an advantage because it's not the norm there yet. Y'all kill it over there. They will like cause fireworks in the most positive ways. Y'all have a crazy upside. With changing that. You think like it's just a matter of you just gotta pay your dues? Yes. Like you just have to pay. I wish, I wish I could take all of you back to 2013 with us and see what the fuck we went through. I fucking wish social media was a thing back then. I wish you were following me around with a camera 12 years ago and I could just play it. I do, I swear I do, because I can— I remember being in your seats All we did is go out and do it. Even when it hurt. Even when it sucked. Even when it didn't feel good. You know how many times I pulled over on the side of the road and want to kill someone or cry emotional or want to quit? Like that's normal. In any business. Yeah. Alright. I'm going to tell him what he's doing wrong. He's like, "What am I doing wrong?" Dialing. Okay. What time was your first phone call? Okay, that was the first problem of the day. What time could you start dialing? I'm not saying today, maybe you had stuff going on, but 8 o'clock, so you missed 3.5 hours there. Okay, I started at 7. Okay, so I'm a 4.5-hour pace ahead of you already before lunch, and I got an entire year to do that every day. Okay, next phone call, what time? 11:25. Okay, you supposed to triple dial, you only called twice. Maybe he answered, maybe he didn't. Next one, 11:25. When was the next one? 11:53. How many minutes is that gap?

That's about 20, uh, yeah, 20 minutes.

So you have a 20-minute gap and you've only been dialing for 3 minutes. So dialing for 3, not dialing for 20 so far. Yeah. And if we count the first 3 and a half hours, now you're dialing for 3 You're not dialing for 4 hours now. Just adds up. So if we got a dialing section and a not dialing section, and there's a timer on both. Damn. Okay, now your next one. 11:56, 11:58, 12, 12:02, 12:03, 12:04, 12:06. All right, what's that gap? Um, don't know.

Um, 10 minutes. 10 minutes. I'm sorry.

So you dialed for 53 You dialed for 13 minutes here and then you stopped again for 10.

For what? Do more, do more. Okay, that's all I do.

You haven't got to tell me that yet.

Now look, look here, 12. Now maybe we didn't lunch, you know what I mean? It's like, so I'm looking at gaps, dude. So never done that in 7 years. That's, that's where everyone loses, is the gap. You go, I've run this many appointments. Cool, you ran a 45-minute appointment, but your next one wasn't for 4 fucking hours. So you're not selling longer than you're selling on your phone today. You're not dialing significantly longer than you are dialing. That was the difference between me and you. I looked at my phone, 60 an hour, no matter what. I'm hitting 60. There will be 60 fucking phone calls an hour pace. Does that make sense? Just because I'm not going to have the gaps, dude. It's 12:00, 12:01, 12:02. I'm just going to go. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Whether I call 60 leads once, I like triple down. So yes. I can make 60 phone calls an hour easily manually.

You get automation, it can go up. Now you're just—

this is straight off rip, like right when you get people started, you just are— it's kind of like, dude, this is the same. This is how I do that day one. I do that on day one. Yeah, like with him when he— and I didn't want to interrupt what they were doing. You know how bad I wanted to close his laptop and tell him to pick up the phone? Like, stop it, fucking close. Oh my God, I was going out of my fucking skin. I literally wanted to shut— but I don't know, I didn't. I'm like, let me stay in my place today, like, for now. I don't know him. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, you know what I mean? But I wanted to be like, close it, let's go. Eventually I did. I'm like, can we just call? You know what I mean? You made us all correct. Can we just work? Does it make sense? That's where the magic is. It's like, stop the noise, let's just go, you know what I mean? So it's like, pick up someone's phone, it'll tell you the truth. Now you get to decide what to do with it. Do you like having— I dialed for 3 minutes and I had 20 minutes off. If you're okay with that, try that on a job. Go work 3 minutes and take 20 minutes off. And then work 3 more minutes and take 20 off. And work 12 minutes and take an hour off. Do what happens. You get fired. Does that make sense? Yeah.

What's your process for referrals? Scott.

I don't know if you already said it, John Wetmore. For referrals from my clients? Yeah, I'll be honest, I wasn't the best at that. I'd be— I was like, yo, give me leads and let me rip. Um, so there's people that are better at it than me for sure. I just— yeah, I mean, I just would ask, you know what I mean? Like, hey, do you literally—

do you know?

Yeah, I think what I'm missing is like having them put us in a chat.

Yeah, yeah. Just being— and I'm not saying this is the right way at all. I want to preface that because there's people kill it on referrals. For me, it seemed really inefficient and I don't really like people. Just being real. I didn't want to call Mary's aunt and try to convince her that she needed insurance. I want someone that filled out a form. I want someone who requested. For me, for my personality, does that make sense? I'm not going to— I just— I'm not good there. So I was like, let me work to my advantage. Now, some people— I know people that make a million dollars a year on straight referrals, so I'm not saying don't do it. They are really good at it, and they create referral networks, and they have business partners, and they work with attorneys and lawyers and CPA, you know what I mean? Like, they create— it takes time to build. But for me, I was like, call his cousin or call another lead. Fuck it, give me the lead. That was— that's for me, that worked better, you know what I mean? Now I could have found a happy— I could have found a medium to that. I just— yeah, give me leads, dude, and let me rip, you know? For me, yeah, especially early, you know what I mean? Just think how long time it takes to call someone. Hey, this is John. I got your name from your cousin Susan and I would want to hang myself doing that. You know what I mean? Like, just let me eat. Give me leads and let me go. Make sense?

Can I see your— or can you break down, like, what was your schedule that you have your team on? What was your office schedule? Because I'm running it with the office. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, well, telesales is very different than— I'll tell you mine, and I would just take the intentionality of it, not the exact, right? Because I don't come from a world where we were doing telesales early. So today my schedule would be what she does. Does that make sense? But I just— we kept it simple, dude. Monday was a dial day. Tuesday, Wednesday was appointments all day. The standard was 12 a day. Again, field sales. You're sitting in your couch in your underwear this needs to be like 20. Does that make sense? And then we would just wash, rinse, repeat that Thursday, Friday, Saturday. You know what I mean? So that became the standard. Like if you came into my world, the culture was you were going to grind the phones all day on Monday, and you're going to go see people Tuesday, Wednesday. You're going to grind the phones all day on Thursday, and you're going to go see people Friday, Saturday. And if you didn't do that, all good. Now, could you shift it if you did something else and you wanted to work Sunday? Sure. Like, you can shift it forward, backwards, who cares. But if you didn't do this or some equivalent of it, in my world, you were part-time and you didn't have the right to complain because I'm telling you it's going to suck. So you guys didn't do virtual? It was all one-on-one? The technology wasn't there. This is 10 years ago. Does it make sense? Now, today, dude, it's let's work like adults. Here. Does that make sense? And set them— set a standard for— I don't know, I'd be like, if you're not doing at least 10 a day, you're literally doing nothing. Yeah, I mean, what are you doing if you're in an office an entire day and not in that ballpark? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And if you— if you're doing less, all good, you're just That makes you part-time. Does that make sense? So I'd be— I would just have this all day every day, dude. It'd be some combination because again, telesales is wildly prevalent now. That's what most people are going to do. So to me, it would be this. If I were running this, it would be full every day and there would be dials starting at 7 AM and they would go till fucking 9 PM and maybe later if they were playing the time zone game. If you could play with time zones, I could dial here till midnight and call West Coast. Does that make sense? So if I were running the show today at your stage, this would be a factory of people. You know what I'm saying? We'd be on the phones nonstop and I'd have structured, like they'd feel good, we'd have some time to train, we'd have some time to dick around. You know what I mean? Like there would be structured increments. Yeah, 100%. For sure. Yeah, you would definitely put that stuff in there for sure. Yep. 'Cause again, now why turn off? Ours, we had to. The technology required that we go see people. There was no e-apps, there was no, that didn't exist. Dude, it was fucking paper apps, to be honest.

So with us going back over there, right? And like we talked about setting standards and whatnot. Would you gather your folks together, your team together and tell them, hey, don't step the fuck up, or just not have that conversation and just start doing it? I would. You would?

Yeah. Hey dude, we see a vision, here's what we're going to start doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially with your main people.

Here's what it's going to take. Yeah, I mean, I would have the con—

you know, it's like, how much do you talk about it though versus just do it? You know what I mean? But I'd be, I'd be way more inclined to do than talk. But I ain't mad at having a Hey, just FYI, it's also a lot easier. Do you have a team call every week? We don't. Not yet. He does? Or he doesn't either? He does every month.

Once a month.

He doesn't see any changes in it. Yeah.

We do a TWC Friday call.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of bringing people together at least a little bit, you know what I mean? Once a week or a chat of some kind where y'all can, you know what I mean? Yeah. And just, I would go to town, dude. How big of an announcement does it need to be? Just go to work. You know what I mean? Hey, here's what we're doing. People are going to see it. You know what I mean? You want to put it out there for an accountability method for yourself. It wouldn't hurt. Absolutely. But again, very few people are going to take it and let it rip with you right away. Just being real. It's going to take time to— take time to build it. So you got it. Thank you, brother.

Put up for like regular, so you let people know like this is how it's going to work. If you want to do like part-time, like you'll take people, but it's like if you want to be in the office, this is going to be the schedule.

Yeah, yeah, I just, again, I just, I gave people options, you know what I mean? Meaning if I go, you can go in that door, it's part-time, it's this many wraps, da da da, it's going to be bumpy, you're going to, it's going to hurt, it's going to suck, there's thorns in there, is burning raw, you know what I mean? Like, it's shit. You go on that one, you got to do 30 a week, 40, whatever your number is, but it's fucking green grass and it's plush and there's pools in there and stuff like that. You just gotta work a lot more on that one though. Like, you're gonna be busy. This one, you won't be busy, but it hurts. You pick. Which door do you want to go in? You'd be shocked how many people pick this door. You know what I'm saying? So if you're going to walk in that door, I'm definitely going to let you because I've told you what's behind that door. But you ever heard of Dave Anderson? Yes. Which one? Um, it is called Up Your Business. All right, so if you go back his earlier ones, uh, he has It's Not Rocket Science. I think it was that one is the one I'm about to reference. It's Not Rocket Science was a good one. Yeah, he's good. We did this. I don't have— oh, here's what we did. We did this we would write. So if you did over $5K, this simple psychology, they do this in car dealers. The car thing. Yeah. So if you wrote over $5K a week, everyone put the numbers up here every week and we had this like method. You'd go like it was like appointments, premium apps, and then recruits or whatever it was at the time, right? So we had a little— we had kind of lingo for our stats. If your premium for the week was over $5K, you could write it in green. If it was between $2,500 and $5K, you could write it in blue. And if it was below $2,500, you had to write it in red. You know how many people didn't want to come up to the front of this fucking board and write in red, bro? Yeah, because you were in that lower class. I stole it from Dave Anderson's book, dude, and it worked. People would be like, I didn't write anything. I'm like, cool, go write your zeros up here in red.

When would you— every month, every—

yeah, we had— so we had 2 days again, Monday, Thursday. So our week— I don't know why we counted our week weird. Y'all probably do too because we stole it from— we— Thursday to Wednesday was our week. How would you call them up? No, everybody knew this. When you came in, we had it up here. It was like, again, appointments, apps, correct, whatever it was, premium. And then at one point we did recruits, we did all kinds of stuff. And when you came up, everyone just— again, you're coming into a culture. It's not like I start— came in, it was no one here one day, and then next day there were 30, right? So I'm like, hey, we're going to have our meeting. Can you go start the numbers? And you know, you come down here and you write John, 30 appointments, and you write your stuff. And then the first thing we do is we go through everybody's numbers. And I'm like, all right, Joe, Steve, Bob, Susan, only ones over fucking— only ones in green. Look, weird. They're the ones in green. They're the only ones over 20 appointments. Shocker. All y'all in red all have 3 appointments, 2 appointments, 6 appointments, 4 appointments. Is anyone confused? You know what I mean? Like, and there would always be like, there would always be someone down here who had a bunch of appointments and low premium, and there'd always be someone up here who had low appointments and big premium. Like, they got lucky this week and they just had a bad week. There was always that, but the overwhelming majority, you would see them fall into Not just, not just colors, not just premium, but the activity always aligned. And what were those key—

what were those indicators?

It always started with appointments. So the way we did it just at the time, because again, we had 2 days a week, so sometimes we were midweek. Does that make sense? So we met on Monday, we're in the middle of the week. So we would do appointments. We had appointments left. So again, I come in, I got 20 scheduled. But I have 10 I still haven't run. Does that make sense? And it was after, like, halfway through a dial day, so you could be like, oh, I booked 6 more today. So there was always appointments, appointments left, there was premium, and then there was apps. That was the main stuff. Yeah. And so we just see it. Literally anyone that walked in here would write it down. I didn't have to. After a while, it was just the norm. And then you'd see there's like, all right, 8 people writing, there's 14 people in the room. All right, which 6 of y'all didn't write? Come up, John Wetmore. You know everybody. Say, hey, come write your numbers. I didn't do any. Write them. You know the drill. Come up. The walk of shame up here to write not only in red, but to write zeros in red. Dude, the psychology of that, bro, is insane. You know, and that's why you see so many leaderboards. There's just not as much intentionality with leaderboards today as probably— and as it got bigger, it got harder to control, which is why I don't— you know, I mean, we don't do that today because I'm not But if I were working with like a base shop close, it's highlighting, it's highlighting the right stuff. You know what I mean? You know, verse, and then you just start talking to people. Hey dude, why'd you only run 4 this week? You said, you come back next week and don't do what we just said. I'd be like, bro, what's that? Like, what? It's confusing. And you're gonna get, and you just start to see people who are ready to perform and those that aren't. You know what I mean? And so that created a culture of high-level activity, high production, just became the norm. You couldn't walk into our office and not see a bunch of people killing it. And over the course of time, those are the ones that drove nicer cars and had nicer houses and had nicer things, could live different. You know what I mean? So you just got to create the version of that virtually. You know what I mean? So I'd have a team call every week and I'd have that shit up there and I'd have it in different colors. And be like, yo, you know, and there's ways to get people to submit them. You know, I mean, you could create a little form, they submit it, it goes to a sheet. If you're a techie, like, that stuff's not complicated. Yeah, you know, there's apps out there that have it, but you can keep it really simple. She's— she's— I just like her. We get along. She calls for help, I answer her. She keeps calling for help, I keep answering. I have no incentive whatsoever. She's doing a million plus a month team-wise. Yeah. Paid volume. Yeah. Huh? Million plus. I don't know exactly. She'd tell you, but it's over a million. I mean, she's fucking killing it. It's probably 1.5 by now. Yeah. I mean, she's not my group, so I don't see her. I literally just fucking— she calls and I help her. Yeah, I think she was saying before that she did face-to-face and then she got on both, like on the phone.

Yeah. And like, that's what—

she came in during the transition. From one style to the other where it changed. I just was out of the field. I got— I've been out of the field since early 2017, so I haven't sold in 7+ years. So the whole— the industry's changed wildly, especially after COVID. But so 5 of these years you sold, which means 7 you've been out?

Mhm. Yep, yep.

First year I was part-time. I did like 3-ish years full-time in the field. Okay. Yeah, '14, '15, '16. I was full-time, and my first full-time year was full-time. It was like your version of full-time, which is why I can say it, because I did it to myself. I did these audits to myself, and that's what changed.