The Ultimate Guide to Scaling Your Insurance Business ft. Pete Fournier | Ep6

All the boring shit will make you rich, but they do it and they're like, that was kind of easy. I want to do it this way now. And you're like, like, what are you talking about?

It's how much people want to overcomplicate it. What's up, y'all? John Wetmore back with another episode of the Insurance Insiders Podcast with my dude Pete Fournier, singing, dancing machine. All things insurance.

What's good, bro? What's happening, brother? How are you?

I'm doing amazing, dude.

Good, good.

Amazing.

Those things in your world, uh, you know, firing on all cylinders and none at the same time.

Welcome to building, bro. The pains of building.

That's it, that's it. Burning the candle at all three ends.

Yeah, isn't that funny? You mean you don't get balance all day, every day?

No balance. I can barely stand. I'm surprised I'm standing right now. I love it.

What's the hardest part right now, bro?

Ah, hardest part, um, I would say the, uh, the, the discipline of outsourcing compared to, uh, giving up margins in the process. Like, you've probably experienced with purchasing, uh, lead resources or hiring more and more staff Um, when you start growing, uh, the money is insane. And then as you get to a certain threshold, you're like, oh man, I can't do everything myself or I'll pass away. So, um, being able to scale that back and not only hiring people but like the right people to put in the right situations— and that goes for like W-2 employees, payroll, uh, could be VAs, could be outsourcing, could even be like the people that you put in management roles. Just because, as you know, someone wrote 50,000 a month 3 months in a row doesn't mean that they know how to take on a leadership role. So I think that's the hardest obstacle that I'm going through right now at this point in my career is like getting to that next threshold. And, you know, you have to sacrifice a little bit in the interim in terms of overall profitability or margins to be able to scale that as time progresses.

Yeah, I remember my buddy Mark teaching me about cash flow in the business, you know what I mean? And we hit a certain point, I'm like, yo, I'm making 50 G's, I'm spending 10, I'm killing it, whatever.

Yeah. And he—

but I'm like— and he goes, yeah, but I'm making 300, spending 60, whatever the number was. Yeah, I mean, I'm like, how do you get— and he literally had to teach me like, all right, spend this to make this, then don't you spend this to make that.

And as—

what's crazy, dude, and you may not see it yet especially as you scale and duplicate things, eventually, dude, I got to stop spending a lot of the stuff I was spending because I just had to prove it worked and then got a bunch of other people, you know what I mean? And I got to pull back and the profitability went fucking through the roof.

Yeah, it's like you get to this— I, I think of the analogy of like you almost have like a slingshot and you're like, pull it back, pull it back, pull it back, and then eventually, to your point, like your staff will get staff and those people will get— and so on and so forth. And then the profitability will skyrocket again. But right now I'm in that, that tight, uh, interlude portion, which is fine. It's a, it's a great growing pain to have. It could be the antithesis of that where you're like, I'm making no money and I'm spending a lot of money. What are we doing?

Hey, there's, there's lots of those out there, and I don't think they're spending a lot. They think, they think they're spending a lot. I love it. I love it. What's, what's the easiest part right now?

What's going, um, easiest part? The, the process that we have in place in general, either for our agents, whether they're LOA— because I do have like a captive LOA side, which everything is like paid for, right? And then for the brokers, um, aside from like the, the couple that like are trying to be fancy and do everything themselves and not take our advice, uh, which, you know, if you're rocking it whatever, high five. But, uh, for 90% of them that want to participate in our processes, it's very duplicatable. That part's very easy. Here's the script, here's the process, here's how you should phone. Uh, if you're taking inbound live transfers, here's the script that you should use, here's the check-ins on a weekly basis. So we got to the point now where it's like not everything is solely up here, um, it's all on paper and it's regimented. And I could give someone like the Pete the Fournier Bible, or in my case, the playbook, and be like, just do this and, uh, you'll make a substantial amount of money. And then as you grow, obviously you'll go through growing pains if you want to build or whatever the case may be. But from a producer's standpoint, that part is very easy at this point. Onboard, start buying leads or having leads paid for if you're on that program, do the script, work this many hours, rinse and repeat, you know. Yeah.

Dude, what's crazy is I've watched your stuff and I'm like, oh, mine's still up here. People are gonna have it. I'm like, I've been too lazy to make it. I don't have a book like Pete. Like, I don't— I should, but I don't because I dip shit. And I have— so we've been having some meetings about like, yeah, I gotta, I gotta make some of this stuff available that I can just go like, here. Yeah, you know, I wasn't that good at that part.

That makes it a lot easier. And like, you, you probably did a ton in the past. I know that. Like I was doing so many one-on-ones throughout the week. It was absolute insanity. And now it's more so like, granted, I like the one-on-ones. They can book on the Calendly and stuff if they really need something. But there's not like as many questions now, just the scheme of things. Unless someone's like that weird kid in school that was like, are you saying 2 2 4? Like, you're like, yeah, yeah, that's what I said. Uh, but besides that, like, it negates like 90% of the bullshit that I was dealing with on a one-on-one basis.

Yeah, I did it with video. That's how I started. That's how my social started, dude. I would like— people would ask a question, I'm like, you're the 9th fucking person asked me that question today. And I started recording videos and just throwing them on YouTube. And then when the next person asked, I'd be like, yo, here's the video. If you have any questions, call me back. But I never like made it pretty.

Like, yeah, you were also using that Marco Polo forever.

That was a good dude. That killed it, bro, at the time. And I would still do some— we still do some equivalents of different tech, but the same concept is like, you know, speaking to the masses at once versus a lot of one-on-ones. Yeah, you know, and getting, getting new agents to hear other agents ask questions and see the answers. And yeah, I mean, kind of getting the agents to eventually sell the thoughts I was trying to sell. It's weird, the new agent will believe— a newer agent will believe some dude that's been with you 3 weeks when he says it works than he will when you say it works. I'm like, what the hell?

100%. How did— I asked you a question real quick. How did you get to the point where, um, they feel like they don't need the John Wetmore one-on-one time? Because one small hurdle— I'm getting to the point— is like, maybe they have an upline, maybe they talk to Sean or JB, who are my two VPs of sales, but like, they need Pete to say it, which like is the antithesis of some of the agents that don't listen to shit from me. But to your point, you have a 3-week-old agent doing it, they're like, oh wow, yeah, correct, yeah, yeah, dude, but I need to hear Pete say that.

Yeah, yeah, that was hard, dude, to be honest. Um, And I didn't have like a path for it where I was like, all right, if we do these 5 things, no one will need John. It sort of developed over time to where one, like your sales stuff, dude, I knew every issue with every agent ever. It's like how many objections are there in sales? There's a fucking handful. It's the same. There's only a handful of things that agents say that you got to deal with. So I started preempting a lot of those things. On interviews. I started telling them if they didn't get on the trainings and they didn't show up to the events and they didn't get on the Marco Polo or the Slack or the— if they didn't do all these things, I could no longer give them the time. And I would tell them, dude, if you don't do all the other stuff, I'm not that good. I can't help you get better if you don't do all the other things, right? So I started speaking it, not in a mean way, right? But I started, I started putting— giving them so many resources because I was the answer guy. Bro, for like, dude, from 2012 till like 20— like 7, 8 years, dude, I was the answer guy, you know? And I built this thing where I'm like, hey, you got any questions, call me back. Hey, you got any questions, let me know. Hey, if you need anything, let me know. And dude, they let me know, right? So it started becoming like, yo, I'm only here to guide you towards information that you need to consume. I should play this much of a role in your life. At the beginning, it's bigger. I'm more at the beginning, but as time goes on, it shrinks. And in the overall 24/7 over the course of a week, a month, a year, dude, I'm involved in your life this much. So if I don't teach you the resources and you aren't coachable, you're going to fail anyway because I'm barely around you, you know? So it's like in the sales side, dude, I started setting the right expectations to what my role was. I started defining my role instead of letting them define my role.

That's good, right?

Um, and then, you know, with time they could earn more one-on-one time if they were doing what was needed. You want to, you want to sell 10 G's a month, dude, you don't need me at all, right? You want to sell 40, you need me or someone like me, you know what I mean? To hire your cousin, you don't need me. You want 20, 30, 40 agents, you need me or someone like me. So I, I just started, it was like resources availability, kind of, but also some level of boundaries I had to learn to put in place. This dude, uh, one of— this guy I had for a coach once, he taught me this concept, man, and it like blew my mind. He had me like write out my day for like a week, what I was doing, who I was talking to. Literally, it was a pain in the ass, dude. I didn't want to do it at all, but I took 7 days, and every time I did something, I'd like mark it down. And we looked at it at the end, and he saw me go from like you know, sales training with Joe, to dealing with payroll issue, to dealing with, you know, where we order staples, to like just crazy stuff. And he goes at the end— I'll never forget this in my— for the— till the day I die, dude. He goes, bro, your life looks like you spend all day fielding fly balls. Yeah, whenever they hit the balls, you go chase them down. He is like, there's no intentionality in your day. Right, so I started creating structure in my day. So it's like, all right, if 9 throughout the week, 9 fly balls are over here, yeah, why don't I knock all those out in 20 minutes instead of doing it like this, you know? So it was a, it was a combination of those things that, that, that helped. I had to be stupid intentional about it because I couldn't, I couldn't get, I couldn't scale because I spent so much time just wherever people needed me. And dude, after I started changing that, uh, like 2019 was the year I really made it. We tripled, bro. And I was doing good volume in '18. We're doing $800 grand a month. And through '19, by the end, we're doing $2.5 million a month just from that one concept, you know, and being intentional with it.

So yeah, it's funny you say that too, because I don't know if it's just because like we hang out, or we hang out around other people that are at the same or higher levels than us. But like, sometimes agents are like, what do I do all day? And I'm like, how do I not let my day just run away from me? Yeah, because to your point, there's a million activities to be doing throughout the day.

Correct.

It gets nuts.

Yeah. And I'm even more now— I get more and more intentional with it as, as we grow, to where like I would have— I'd come into the office and I would have meeting at 9, and then I'd have another one at 12, and then I'd have something at 2, and in the middle I would just do stuff, right? You know what I mean? And I'm like, dude, I hate this. So now I pick days I come in the office, and dude, I'm back to back. I've— I have not stopped talking on something since I've been in the office. What time do I get in today? Like 11:30? I think it came in 11, 11:30, 12, whatever it was. And dude, I've been literally one after the other, back to back to back to back to back to back. Dude, I have nothing scheduled tomorrow. You know what I mean? I'm going to go to like— my daughter has a thing at school. I'm going to the gym for 2 hours. I'm going to play golf. I'm going to go take my son to baseball. Like, I'm just like, I'm not here Tuesday, period. You know? And so I continue to refine it. Yeah. To just be stupid effective with my time.

That's huge. I did read, and I got it on my shelf over there, Big Money Energy, Ryan Serhant, because I don't think that— I love him. I love him. He's got to be— I don't know if he is, I spread rumors— gotta be out of his mind because the guy gets like 4 hours of sleep and he's like, okay, all the time. But he is— he has one comment in that book which I, I started implementing like 2 years ago, it's helped a lot, is everything's in 15-minute intervals. Yeah, like because I used to have agent one-on-ones and they'd be like an hour and you'd talk about nothing, nothing like 20 minutes of it. So if everything's back to back to back in 15-minute intervals, you can really consolidate that, that schedule.

Yeah, here's one of the things I've learned too, dude. So let's do this. If, if, if I took your playbook, right, sling it. Yeah. And I go through it and you give me some one-on-one stuff, me and you were talking, whatever. How long would it take Pete to teach John— not John today, but John of 10 years ago— how long would it take you to teach me to sell $30K a month, issue $30K a month? If I listen to— dude, if I listen to everything you say, bro, how long would it take you?

Like in total one-on-one time, you think after that?

How long in like how— what month will I start selling $30K a month? It's April 29th right now.

Probably by June, I would say.

Okay, so a month.

Yeah. Okay.

So then my question to you is if someone's only doing sales after one month, what on earth are you talking to them about?

Right, true. That's a huge point.

Does it make sense?

It—

what is it? It's something you've already repeated.

You have to—

you repeating stuff you've already said, you know what I'm saying? And I had to look at that and go like, yo, why are you calling me about lisinopril again, right? Like, seriously, you don't know that one yet? Does it make sense? Or like, what do you do when they say this? Bro, the same thing I told you last time. Are you looking for a new answer?

Yeah.

You know what I mean? What do I do? Leads, uh, how do I get to the— I'm like, I would literally started going, are you looking for a different answer than I told you last week, dude? And then I, again, I started setting the expectation that if they listen to everything I say, it should only take this long, you know. Now there might be some one-off random stuff every once in a while But for the most part, there ain't a ton that you're talking about after 2, 3, 4, 5 months that you've not already said. So I just started taking the method of like, yo, if you didn't listen to me the first, second, or third time, I'm definitely not saying it the fourth time. I'm out. You can stay here.

I just—

I had like a no complaining rule. If you don't listen, my one rule is you can never complain, you know what I mean? And that, that helped with the the, the initial question as well. Um, you know, and then what that allowed me to do is focus on people who want to grow and get to a new level or build. Because you start talking about building and scaling, dude, there's endless conversations then, you know.

Yeah, so makes total sense. I, I think too, too, you have to alleviate— and I talked about this on my training call last Wednesday because it makes no sense— like, all the boring shit will make you rich. Like, I think a lot of the questions that stem is your agent comes in, maybe not brand new writing $30K a month, but like if you were somewhere and you know what AmeriCo is or Amman, whatever, you're gonna do it. But they do it and they're like, that was kind of easy, I want to do it this way now. And you're like, like, what are you talking about? Just go make a quarter million dollars doing the same boring shit over and over again and then come talk to me about something, you know what I mean? It's insane.

It is wild. It's how much people want to overcomplicate it, especially after they've done it. It's like, what? Yeah, you know what, like, and I still teach the same. I'm like, dude, watch my trainings. I'm 12 years, I say the same exact thing still. Yeah, it is boring, but I do it 19 times a week on different videos and trainings and whatever. Yeah, it's wild, dude.

Or they want to change up product lines, which is also insane. Like, oh man, I made $20 grand this month on final expense. I'd really like to be able to sell short-term medical now. And you're like, what are you doing?

Joe told them that was cool and easy.

Yeah, 100%.

Not any Joe we know. FYI, Joe, if you're watching, that's not who I meant.

Yes. Yeah.

Hey Joe, I love it, dude. What, um, tell them, give them— what do you want to talk— what do you want to share, dude, in, in terms of sales stuff? I know all your stuff, I've seen it. But I think you should definitely share some of the things that you see working well, whether it's one of your copywriting. What I like about your stuff, dude, that I— God, like, you have cool names for them. You have like ABC, you know, what if, when— I don't know them all, but I watch it, you know what I mean? I'm like, God, this dude's so intentional with making things stick, you know what I mean? Putting names to them and tying it together. So I like to share, share some of your stuff, dude.

I think one of the best tricks— and like, I really didn't make it up, I made up like the verbiage to your point, but like not the concept— is my dad worked for Lowe's Theaters. He was a VP of HR when I was really young. And, uh, you know, they got bought out, so you got downsized or whatever. But he worked there until I was like 12 or 13. And I remember them, the biggest thing was concessions for, uh, movie theater because they didn't make tickets, they got to sell $8 popcorn, right? And if you, if you watch like the most successful fast food chains, the movie theaters, whatever, all of it is a 3-option close all the time. It's always small, medium, large. Sometimes they got the size, whatever, and it's all psychological. So the, the first thing, uh, whether you're selling final expense, Medicare, mortgage protection, whatever the product is, always, always, always a 3-option close. At least that's what we teach our agents. And The key to the 3 options is to make it make sense for the prospect. I don't like silver, gold, platinum. I think that's like horseshit. Doesn't make any sense. So if you're, let's say, final expense, for example, because most agents start there, we pitch a today, a tomorrow, and a max-out plan. Today will pay for a funeral cremation today. Tomorrow, uh, accounts for inflation. And max-out is the maximum amount of insurance that this carrier will allow you to have. And that's it. And you kind of blame it on the system. Like, hey, based on your age, your reciprocal, your Metformin, right? Whatever bank account, this is what you got. You got it today, tomorrow, max out. And if they like balk or they say something in between, you got to put it on them. Be like, no, this is your customized plan. So do you want to pay for a funeral today, tomorrow, or do you want the maximum amount of coverage? The psychological aspect of that is A and B are always very tight. Meaning in final expense, let's say, let's say option A is like $58, right? Option B is like $70,000. So it kind of makes no sense not to do that for a $12 difference. The ROI is much greater. It's like what they do in, uh, when you go buy a car all the time. They're like, you want a sunroof? And you're like, yeah, fuck it. And they're like, do you want heated seats? You're like, I might as well do it. Serious radio for 2 years. And you're like, geez, and your $60,000 car went to $90,000. Right? So same thing, the today and the tomorrow plan, make them tight to each other. And then the max out is sticker shock. You ever been in a buying situation, whether it's like an expensive watch like we like or a car or whatever, and they'll show you like the holy cow Ferrari, whatever. And you're like, oh yeah, that looks awesome. And they're like, that's $500,000, but you could get this one for $320,000. And you're like, wow, that's not so bad. So if you scare the shit out of them with the max out— now granted, some clients will take it 10% of the time, but your whole goal is to lead them to option B. Because fast food chains, movie theaters, right, all these restaurants, etc., the medium size is usually like 70% or 80% of their revenue. So just duplicate that into life insurance. Same token, to John's point, when you're speaking to people, I'm big on referrals. Like 90% of my business now is on referrals.

I don't play right?

But when you're talking to them, they didn't request anything. So you still need a 3-option close leading into your presentation. So I came up with term for what if, IULs or ULs for we hope, and whole life for when. It doesn't matter that they're just concepts and there's no pricing. It still leads them to pick something because it's 3, it's not 2, it's not 5, etc. So that's a really important concept that we try to instill in all of the agents that I coach and the agents in our downline because it's the simplest concept. I've seen people do step-down training. I've seen people do like, you know, we learned it both you and I, like, oh, you can't afford the $400,000 mortgage. How about the 2? How about the half? How about the whatever? At the end of the day, if you just outline the options, no is not a realistic answer to A, B, or C. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's important.

Some of the most intentional wording is, is where you're really good, you know, just being intentional with everything you do. And I was always— I was taught by my mentor Mike, if you want to get paid like a professional, you better act like a professional, you know what I mean? And when I was like winging it, yeah, I'm like, oh, I, I can't do the wing it playbook, that one ain't good, you know, it don't sell as much insurance, right?

Right. The other big thing on the sales too, an intentional, um, verbiage is super important. How many times do we listen to agents and they throw things in like this wishy-washy crap language? Like, I hear agents all the time be like, do you want to do this, or— what do you mean, or? The latter option is always the option. Yeah, okay, yeah, I don't want to do it. So like, why, why do we do that? Like, when I first started in the field, I had huge RBF. And for those of you that don't know, it's resting bitch face, right? People would be like, oh, these are my kids. And I'd be like, I don't care, whatever. I just want to make this sale and get the hell out of the house. So I had to do my presentation like staring at myself, which was so uncomfortable. So whether you're like doing telesales or you need to record yourself or you need to look in the mirror, like focusing on what you are intentionally saying and not sounding like an idiot, or worse, so you're saying John's words or you're saying my words and there's no substance behind it. You don't know why you're saying it this way, you know what I mean?

Yeah, so it's understanding the reasoning and where we're leading people and all that jazz. Yeah, I've definitely— dude, I've heard people— like, someone once when I was newer, we created some scripts and someone, like, uh, they typed out my script from a recording, like verbatim, and I say things like That's dope. Or yo, hey, about, you know what I mean? Like I was saying, just, I was being me, dude, right? And one day someone's like, I was like, all right, give me your phone script. And he's like, all right, so that's dope, now what do I— and I'm like, bro, I didn't ask if you could read to me, you know what I mean? Like, can you, can you give me your thing and be you?

That's a lot.

Yeah, you see a lot of them. Yeah, how, um, a question I get a lot that I, I find funny, but a lot of people over the years, they talk to me about selling and building. Hmm, you know what I mean?

Like, how do I do both?

Do I stop selling to build?

Do I— you know what I mean?

And then I was just talking to— I just did one with this dude Max, who I don't know if you know him, but he knows you. And we were chatting about it, and he's like— and he did your voice, which was really cool. And he's like, you know, Pete, I just, you know, I did $17,000 in life volume today, 4 annuities, 2 Medicare apps, and I'm on my way to tennis. He just, you know, it's like, but you know, if you watch your life, it's not that complicated. But talk to him about doing— I mean, you do obviously both of these things. You still sell a shit ton of insurance yourself.

Yeah, which is cool. Did you—

hey, did you buy that car, by the way?

No, no. Oh God, real quick tangent story. So I rented a 488. I wanted a DB11 at Medicare, and they didn't have one, or they had it but it was coming in late. So I wanted to go hiking, and you know, you got to vision board every once in a while. So, quick, $1,000, rent the damn car. So I rent the 488, and they said you could come pick up the DB11 at noon and it'll be ready for you. And I was like, oh cool, I've never driven a Ferrari, this will be fun. So I took it in the desert, and I go hiking for like 15-20 minutes. I come back to the car to go to the next spot, car's dead. Won't turn over. $400,000 car died in the desert. 2 hours in the desert to get rescued by the Aston Martin. I was like, stop it, I'm 0 for 1, so I'm never buying a Ferrari. Take it all off the vision board and adding the DB11. So insane. But yeah, I just wanted— you know, sometimes you got to feel it. It's like the secret. I agree. It was pretty fun except when I got stuck. So if you own a Ford 88, be very careful out there, ladies and gentlemen.

Don't go to the desert.

But, uh, so, and everybody's got different— there's so many different organizations, so many different strategies on recruiting and producing. Obviously, if they're produced to make a paycheck first, I think it's important, at least where I'm at in my career, to habitually produce. One, because like my lead bill for the LOA could be upwards of $30,000 in a week. So if I need cash real quick, I know I have the opportunity to print money. So every once in a while it's for cash flow, but more importantly, it's for clout. Like, I remember wholeheartedly, it was like my last month at a 3-letter non-IMO captive agency, and, uh, I won some contest to go out in the field with my RVP because that's what they called them. And apparently this guy was like amazing. And I was 22 and he was 28, and he had a Breitling and I didn't. I had like a Casio. And I was like, I'll listen to everything this guy does. We went 0 for 11.

Him—

it— the whole point of being in the contest was so he could get me hella paid for the day. Like, oh, I'm gonna make 10 grand today. And we couldn't close a fucking door. So I I think staying relevant is important. And also too, it comes with the territory of like all things insurance group. We sell every product line. So if Pete doesn't sell it, how am I going to teach the distribution? But it's the same thing like we talked about in the beginning. Time management is of the essence. Like I'm not going to spend time writing an ACA app or like a $50,000 annuity and take away time from my business. Like I'm going after big group clients. If I'm posting online, my average premium's like $10,000, $15,000 on a life case. So I'm writing it as referrals come in, or if I have to make a contest or whatever. But, um, I think you have to get to a certain point in your career where you don't have to produce financially to be able to start building or continue to build. Um, if you feel like you habitually need to personally produce I don't think you're ready to build just yet. Maybe you could get an agent or two that, like, you know, if your buddy's working at McDonald's and he sees you driving around in a Corvette and they're like, what are you doing? What are you gonna not bring him in? Like, that makes sense. But if you're still paying all of your bills, um, on your personal pen and you're like running scared with your leads and your marketing and all that stuff, I don't know if you're ready for more than like 2 or 3 agents. And I think that amount of money is different for everybody. Some people can start building with $20K in the bank.

Cool.

Some people need six figures. I don't know what it is, but I think there is a monetary correlation to be like, I'm either habitually making this or I have this saved up so I can take away some time to start bringing people on. Or you have the best processes on the planet, everything is automated, and you can just recruit people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had like 9 cents when I started recruiting.

I was so sick.

I was like, let's go, who cares?

Yeah.

Now I will say I leveraged other people that were really good.

Sure, sure.

I mean, I, I had the dude who helped me, he, his motto was like, treat everybody like they're direct. So he allowed me to send him the people. All I did was go like, hey, Mike's trying to teach me, he's teaching me how to make a bunch of money. You open a conversation, you know what I mean? And he taught me how to do it with time. So he made it, it made it super easy.

That's 100% the play. If you can put the onus on your upline manager, the IMO Direct, some of these resources, right? And you can just build, build, build, build, build. As long as it's not like—

I've—

and we comment on the same post all the time, these life insurance groups— as long as you, Johnny, are not trying to teach Deborah how to be idiots the first 6 months. Yeah, you shouldn't teach nothing. Yeah, exactly. But if you can like funnel them into the process, you start day one. Who cares?

Yeah, that was, that was my model. I wasn't— I didn't want all the W-2 staff, so I'm like, yeah, let me get, let me get these agents to be recruiters in a sense, you know what I mean? But I had to take on a lot of burden of time, dude. I had to do everything for all of them. So it worked, but it was, it was, it was hard with time, you know. At first I leveraged him, but over time I was like, hey, let me duplicate that model. But it was, it was a, it was a headache. It's a lot, a lot of ways.

Yeah, bro.

He's nuts. I see your, uh, when you're posting about recruiting, you're definitely really clear about who you want and who you don't.

100%. Yeah, 100%. You know, it, it's—

your work ethic is dog shit, don't call me.

Literally, because you, you know as well as anybody, you can get taught anything. Waiver, premium rider, returner, premium. IUL crediting, wash loans, all the shit you can open a book and read. But like, I can't force you to pick up the phone. So if you have maniac attitude, I'll take you the rest of the way. But it's like these people that are like, meh, or like, no offense, part-timers, I've started to steer away from that. I was a big proponent of all on my own sword with this big proponent of it initially because I was like, oh, you know, you want to make side hustle money, whatever the case may be. But like, in my experience now, after like 13, 14 years, no one that I can foresee— and everybody's got their own story— no one that I've recruited part-time has had enough success because of part-time hours to then transition out of their full-time job because they're still running scared from part-time results. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, yeah, hard.

Yep.

There's very few, you know. I have a lot of people talk to me about it because they want— that was my Transit, you know what I mean? But it's like, dude, it's hard, bro. It was hard doing it, you know? Because I'll say, like, the hard part for me, man, is if, like, you're trying to get into this part-time and you're struggling, you're going to work way more before you get to work less. Because you have to do your current life and your current job and your current stuff and kids and all the crap you do, and then you have to add this, and you have to add learning it, and you have to add the, the blows to the face of it. Like, buckle up, you know. It's, it's an interesting— it was a hell of a journey, that's for sure.

It's double the work, legit, 100%, until you're ready. Yeah, I dig it.

How's dad life, dude?

It's wild. She's running and talking and walking. Not talking like full sentences yet, but she's almost 17 months old, but she says like little words here and there. She's starting to catch, which is crazy. She's also a giant, which is helpful.

Are you serious?

Oh yeah, yeah, she, she's like 98th percentile in height, 96 in weight. So I'm looking forward to like preschool, like, oh, Mallory took so-and-so's lunch money. I'm like, oh, who's— you'd be like, Cody's. And I'll be like, oh shit. But, uh, yeah, it's cool. It's, it's wild that they— I mean, you know, they grow very fast, very quickly. The changes are absolutely insane in a very short time. Yeah.

How's it when you travel? You travel a little bit, decent bit. You come back, what's that? How's it feel traveling, right, when you got them at home, when you got her at home, and then getting back?

Yeah, I mean, I'm— we, we were on that crazy tour together and I was taking 77 plane rides a year and whatever. Now I do like maybe 5, 6 trips a year, um, One, because I don't like want to be away, like, and it's more like what you were talking on that time management side and what's worth it and what's not. But it is so insane. Like, I was in Vegas for what, 4 and a half days? I came back, I was like, do you grow an inch and gain 5 pounds? And like, it's so— the evolution is so nuts in just like a speck of time.

Yeah.

Um, and it, it's a hard, um like, I, I— you could talk on this too, of where you were at in both businesses, like the accounting job plus the life insurance, on when your kids were born. But like that dichotomy of, all right, well, I gotta go to— Dad's got to go to work because he wants to be able to provide for you and do everything, but I also want to just play with you for like 5 and a half hours. So like that juggle is, is not easy on a daily basis.

It's not, dude. It's tough. You know, when they were when I was— when they were younger, when I was new to the business, it was, it was a little easier in the sense that I didn't have a choice. Yeah, I mean, like, we were just in a financial position and I didn't, I didn't sell. Like, I'm not a sales guy. I didn't have money. I didn't— dude, I didn't have a choice. And most of my life I didn't have a choice because I had a second job or, you know, I mean, I wasn't making no money. But as, as I've gotten older and they've aged and now, like, I got not mad, but I was like being a baby to my— so my, uh, two oldest are in their 20s already. My oldest is be almost 30, and I got 25, and I got one which I call my oldest now of the three younger ones. I got three that are still around. I'm like, the oldest, she's just turned 18, she's graduating from high school, and she came over and just said hey the other day, and I gave her a hug and kiss, and I'm like, it really sucks that you're not 4 anymore. I was kind of pissed. I'm like, you're fucking 18 going to college. I remember like playing out in the dirt with you like it was yesterday, you know. So it does go by so quick, dude. And now Maddox is 12.

Wow.

Yesterday I'm like, bro, I only got like maybe 6 more years, and I don't even have that because by the time they're 16, they're so different. Yeah, you know, I'm like, bro. So I, I do it. I don't regret the way we did it because we get to live the way we do today. But I do, um, I do make sure I get as much time as possible with them now. You know, and I had kids so young, I didn't live the same.

It was just a different path for me, you know, having to do it.

So now I live kind of vicariously through Amanda's girls. She has twins and, uh, a little touch older than yours.

Yeah.

Now she'll send me a video or I'll be on the phone and I hear like, Mickey, and you know, here we go, and they drop the ball. And I'm like, I can understand her baby's lingo and I love it, dude. I love babies.

That's so awesome. I tell you what, the nice part about doing what we're doing, and we can brag on ourselves a little bit, is like having the nanny, being able to afford the daycare, whatever. So that way when you are with them, you're 100% present and you're not like fielding phone call or whatever. Um, so it sucks to like offload that, but at the same token, it allows you like if it's 2 hours a night, let's say, before she goes to bed at like 7:30, 8 o'clock, like 2 hours is a nice amount of time, right? Like 100% dedicated focus to her, you know what I mean?

They don't need you that long typically. They're usually bored with you way sooner than 2 hours.

Like, yeah, I'm done. Just Rachel, play with the ball.

I love it. That's so sick. It's, it's a blast. Yeah, it's, uh It's, it's fun. So what, um, where are you? What's the direction? Where are you going?

What's the goals?

I want to hear some vision from you. What are you trying to do?

Uh, trying to get the EBITDA up as huge as humanly possible, obviously, first and foremost. Um, yeah, uh, one of the big visions is like not necessarily huge from a bodies perspective, but in the next 3 to 5 years we want 1,000 people making over $100,000 a year. Is the, the primary income goal. I want to say like that's minimum wage at 8K, which is nice. We're about $460, but like, you know, as well as anybody else, like there ain't no $460 making 6 figures because they're, you know, doing whatever. But, uh, that's one of the immediate ones. Um, and then scaling the, uh, the LOA side. So our LOA is like kind of a jumping off point to then become a broker. Like, I don't want you on that program for more than 12 months. It doesn't really make sense for you as a producer. So, uh, getting to 100, uh, of them for the end of the year, so that way we can start transitioning hopefully 100— you know, not everybody's gonna make it, but 100 estimated into the broker field on an annual basis and just keep the class kind of, kind of going. Yeah, yeah.

Y'all mostly remote? I know you have some people in the office, but yeah, mostly people in here making sales.

Uh, we could fit about 16, 17 in here, and now we got like 2,200 to 2,300 square feet. Most people are remote though. We do, uh, we do an in-person training. We implemented this, uh, last year, and I know you guys do a ton of it. So the last Tuesday and Wednesday, we do an in-house, like, deep dive every single month, uh, and people come in from all over the place. And like, the in-person— I don't care where you're at in your career, like, if your upline or your IMO or whatever has a, a conference, a boot camp, an in-house training, something like Fucking go, because like you learn so much in like two 8-hour classroom settings than you do on like 500 Zoom calls. Yeah, it's true.

Yeah, it's a whole different experience. Whereas I'm starting to do them again. I got away from it for a little while only because I had the same people showing up locally and they weren't listening or growing, and I'm like, dude, I'm kind of tired of talking to you 12 people. Can we, can we stop? But now we're getting— dude, I'm like, like you, I get a lot of people reach out from all within all different companies in the industry or whatever. So we're starting to do some in-person stuff once a month. I do on Zoom once a month. I also want to be protective of my time in a lot of ways, right? Like once a month.

I used to do—

I did it twice a week in office for 8 years. That was a lot.

Wow.

You know, and I'm like, nah, we're going to once a month. I'm— that's all I got in me right now.

Yeah, 100%. And like, you're, you're I mean, I always had remote uplines and agencies like throughout my entire tenure. Your person doesn't need to be in your backyard, just go there once every couple months, you know what I mean? You'll be fine.

I had, uh, I had, I had an agent reach out the other day and they were like, hey, my upline so-and-so, blah blah, the support, I'm really looking for someone local, can you help me? And I'm like Damn, what do you need me to get, like, get you out of bed in the morning and get you out of your PJs and walk you— yeah, like, walk you to your car? Like, what does local have to do with shit?

You know, it's just an excuse, always an excuse.

It's funny. What do you, um, what do you look for, dude, in, in agents? I know kind of the maniac style, but how do you, how do you get, how do you get there? Like, to— it's a hard thing to do, obviously. I can relate in a lot of ways, but how do you identify that? How do you weed them out? And better yet, how do you know when to tell people no and move on?

Yeah, I gotta get better at the latter, that's for damn sure, because I've seen enough success stories where like during the interview I'm like, man, this person sucks, and then they come out the gate swinging. You're like, oh wow, I shocked myself. But you still gotta vet— I gotta vet them a little bit harder. But I started treating this more like a standard job interview than I ever have in the past. And that was over the last, I would say, like 6 to 9 months. And, uh, it's one part being like disgustingly honest with the person so they weed themselves out. And then two is like, what did you do before? It's not like we're getting a lot of college kids, right? We do have an internship program, but it's small, it's like 10, 11 people. Um, you're not getting people that had no job experience before. So like, I'm getting into insurance, or the, the worst thing— I hate it on every interview, and I'm sorry if you said this to me and you're on my team— I'm getting back into insurance. Yeah, well, what are you talking about? What are you doing for like the last 2 years or 3 years? So, uh, focusing on either gaps in their resume— and it's not like I'm accepting resumes ways. But yeah, yeah, that's in their resume or their timelines or whatever, and kind of really harping on that, whether they want to be LOA and have everything paid for or even be an independent broker. It's like, do I really want that person on the team? Are they going to be a liability both time-wise and maybe monetarily? Because debt roll-ups are a real thing. Um, so I, I started getting better. My dad was really good at that because he was VP of HR for Got it. Uh, he was hiring, like, he helped hire the CEO, like, for interview questions. And you're not that strict or regimented because you're not paying someone $4 million a year, but either getting them to weed themselves out or you kind of weeding them out, uh, based on their trajectory or what they want. One thing that I implemented, I don't know where I heard this, it was at some conference somewhere, and I was like, holy shit, I gotta run with that idea. So on the, uh, recruiting call, I asked them what they want to make. Over the next rolling 12 months? And if they say less than like 100, I'm, I'm immediately like, look— and it's not, it's not because like 60 or 70 is like bad and people don't live off of that, but like realistically, the only reason you should be in this business first is like, I want to make a shit ton of money.

Correct.

If you want to save the whales or do stuff for your family or whatever, like that comes with finances. But like, your initial goal should not be like, I want to work less and make $42,000 a year. That doesn't work. Uh, so like, immediately weeding people out based on their income goal— yeah, it is quite funny. Um, but it's true. Like, the people that write like quarter million year one, you're like, yeah, right, but maybe. Uh, but you can tell the determining factors, like when that person gets on phone versus someone that's like, I'd really like to supplement my $62,000 salary. That's fine. I don't know if I'm the right quote-unquote upline for that because I don't— I can't pull you to a buck 20 or buck 50, you know what I mean?

You'll get frustrated.

I'll get frustrated. Yeah, yeah, you, because I'll be really mean. Correct.

Oh Lord, that's funny. It's so sick. We should, um, I feel like we should do something fun together. I don't know what, man. I don't mean shopping for shoes again because that was fun.

That's dangerous.

And what did we do? We did, uh, was it— did we do the piano thing? I feel like we did dueling pianos.

And the last thing we asked you was go watch shopping, and that would be just destruction.

Yeah, we should— I'm all about that. Yeah, because to be clear, we drank more in that night than we probably should have in a month.

Yeah, but it was fun. I think I paid like $100 to hear like Crocodile Rock or something, something stupid from that guy.

But yeah, we should, we should have like a, uh, do something in the industry too. Yeah, something, I don't know what, but when we did the chases thing, it was fun as shit.

We sat on there for like 2 hours, uh, like a little, uh, Red Only Zoom or something like that.

Oh yeah. Yeah, Reds only. Oh man, upset Nate.

In the meantime, yeah, we won't tell people what it means or what it is, but if you think you're a Red, you should join us.

It'll be a blast. We should set it up for sure. Yeah, um, yeah, end with whatever you want to give people. Obviously, if you want to tell them not only where they can find you, which I think most people know Um, but like, I don't know, just a message, anything you think we didn't talk about that you want to just kind of wrap it up however you want, dude.

Yeah, yeah. Um, I run all my own social just like this dude, so, uh, @PeterJFournier everywhere. If you want to DM me on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, whatever, um, hit me up, uh, or go to PeteFournier.com. Um, I, I think a big thing, and I harp on it a lot of times on podcasts or whatever, is, um if you are in whatever version of a rut is for you— like it was me when I got in $50,000+ of roll-up debt, like, you know, 12 years ago, and I wanted to, like, swallow a bullet— um, just know that, like, wherever it is right now is a speck of time in your career, as long as you're thinking of this industry as a career. I think too many agents, and even recruiters too, or agency managers, are looking like this far in front of their face, um, as opposed to like 2, 5, 10, 15 years down the road when they're future planning, when they either want to sell or exit or retire or whatever the case may be. So if you're in a bunch of debt right now or you feel like you're not getting this off the ground, like, one, no one can wave a magic wand and make you successful instantaneously. It's still a hard business. It's not easy. It sure as hell is simple if you listen to John or myself or any of these other high-performing people. It's a very simple strategy, but it's not easy by any means. So just know that if you are stuck somewhere, uh, or you feel like you suck, or you're out of money, or you're scared to swipe your credit card or whatever, just know that we've all been there. Like, I don't know really anybody that was like, oh, I took over an agency, year one I made $1.5 million, and it's like this from there. Like, that's not, not gonna happen. And if it does, fuck that person. Um, so that's true right there. Just know you can get out of it. And when you look at your entire timeline in this industry, like, I look at it 12 years ago, um, and I'm almost 14 years in, very small piece of the pie in your overall trajectory of where you need to go. And, uh, things can change. I I mean, instantaneously. Like John just talked about, today, from one year to another, you triple production. Like, where else are you going to be able to do that? But if you don't stay the course, you're, you're never going to. So make sure you stick with it.

Yeah, that took 7 years for that to happen. Yeah, you know, it's like, whoa, you know, it's, it's wild. And, uh, I think it's funny that you get some— sometimes agents are like, yeah, this Insurance didn't work. It don't work. I'm like, wait, what? Y'all see the amount of people printing money?

Yeah. The other thing is too, do not be afraid, because I am every once in a while, because I'm used to doing things a certain way. Like age leads, you're gonna be no more, or whatever, right?

Yeah.

Be okay with transitions. If they take away a lead, a freaking product, or whatever, It doesn't matter at the end of the day. The, the strong will survive. Pivoting is not that difficult. And, uh, don't get into the cesspool of like social media Facebook groups where everybody's so negative all the time. Do you not think negative sometimes? Because I don't go down the rabbit hole, you know.

I, um, I don't know how you do it. I, I removed myself from all of them. I can't function in life reading these fucking idiots' posts, dude. I can't do it. I, I— and I would try to be nice and teach them stuff and do my best. I'm sorry, my staff's right here like, will you two stop cussing?

Sorry, you have edit work to do.

But these groups, dude, I literally took myself out of all of them.

I can't handle them. It's wild.

You have way more patience than I do because I assume you're still— I used to, at least yours would always pop up. Yeah, I mean, like, because we follow and be like, oh, Pete responded here. And I would, and I quit. I just, I don't, I'm, I'm too weak.

I'm either like, uh, super helpful, like assisting, especially because I, I can empathize with people needing help or whatever, or I like, you know, maybe have a bourbon and talk mad shit. Either way, it's, it's one way or the other. That's, it's no in between.

Yeah, our lives should include bourbon and vodka.

Yeah, we go live.

Yes, that'll be fun.

Yeah, that would be fun.

It would be one hell of a show. Amanda, she's pissed now with me talking about it. She's right there like, what are y'all— and they can't hear you. Oh, so yeah, they only can imagine what's happening here. No, it'll be fun.

Absolutely.

I appreciate it, bro.

Thanks for having me, brother. So much fun as always.

Always, man. Have a blast hanging out, and if I can help in any way, let me know. Otherwise, let's catch jump offline. You'll see us around.

Hell yeah. Thanks, bro. See you soon.