🧑‍🏫 An Introduction to Transformational Mens Work with Raul Espinoza from All Kings Replay

Good morning. Good afternoon. Hi, Venus. Hey, Jen. Deb. Dorothy. Hey, Mark. Morning. Hey, Martin. A Keys. So we'll be starting at three minutes past the hour as usual. If you'd like to share in the chat how you're feeling in this moment, in three words, share. How are you feeling in this moment in three words. Good morning, Paul. Good to see you here.

Sa.

Hey, Patrick. Hey Tarek. Hey Adrian. A Renz. Hey, Sarita. Okay, well, welcome everyone. Excited to have Raul here with us this evening. Let me just spotlight, spotlight both of us. Let some people in. Okay. Welcome, Raoul. It's so great to have you here.

It's so good being here with you, brother. Thank you for having me.

So Raoul is an old friend and Raoul is the director of All Kings.

Executive director. Yeah.

Executive director. Yeah. And why don't we just dive right in? What is All Kings? And how did you come to. How did you come to be the executive director of All Kings?

Yeah, totally. Thank you. So All Kings is a peer led men's group and we're dedicated towards mental health, emotional wellness and leadership development. And we mainly work with men that have been impacted by the justice system. So formerly incarcerated men, alternatives to incarceration. We also work with young men that are at risk. So we have a lot of active gang members and street kids in our community. And the whole intentionality behind that is to normalize men talking about, you know, behind our story, behind our narrative comes all these belief systems, how we perceive the world, how we think we need to respond to it. And some of that has led to our detriment, you know. And so we, we create these containers, retreats, weekly circles and leadership courses so that way we could unpack and understand like the roots of how we're operating, why we're coming and interacting with our life this way and how do we want to respond and what do we want to model. And essentially the whole, the purpose of this, behind this is almost this idea of a father figure. And if you have a sound, healthy father figure that's in a street corner, violence goes down, crime goes down, community feels tighter and more like empathetic and compassionate held. When you have a sound figure along with the mother figure, along with the elders and part of the tribe, but in, in societies and communities, parts of our community that have been impacted larger by violence or by incarceration, that healthy father figure is often absent. And I've been doing transformational work for the last 17 years doing like emotional intelligence development work and peer led support and mindset coaching. And I've got to work with communities around the world, especially specifically oppressed communities, and just to dive in a little more, because I come from that. I come from a household with domestic violence. I come from poverty. I come from a lot of chaos in my own environment and no real resources to really be me, where I was at and support me. And so I saw a lot of friends that fell to addiction or fell to incarceration or violence, or those that dodged all those bullets just managed to just shut down and beat these kind of like shells of men. And so we're looking at how that'd be different.

Yeah, man. It's such a powerful, powerful story and just powerful work. How did men's work find you?

And I'll slap myself here with a mosquito bit.

Can you mute everyone there? How did I think, yeah, there we go. How did men's work find you? And what was the impact of menswork, specifically on your own journey? Kind of from that background that you just described?

Yeah, you know, Mensworth found me in a very crucial time for myself. Take in mind, I was already doing my own transformational work for about 12 years. It started off with more like mindset coaching, cognitive development, and how my mindset, amount of reality was dictating my behaviors. So how do I break through that and get to the next level? And then over years of doing this practice, when I became a coach, I was very in the masculine. I was very like, actions, results oriented, get moving, break through the wall, get to the other side, whatever it takes type stuff. Very, very high, grand. My masculine that I've grown, I've grown a good bit past it served its purpose back then, and now I'm in a just different state. And then I got into this realm of emotional intelligence. And I've always been connected to my feminine. I've always been connected to my emotional landscape. Though it was a bit hard to own publicly because I had this stigma of man up, toughen up, boys, don't cry. And it wasn't normalized for men to be emotional because it was deemed to be a female trait, as if that was, you know, something negative. And the only thing that I saw that we were encouraged to be as men was angry. Because if we're sad, it's soft. If we're afraid, we're small. If we're ashamed, then it's little of us. It's not like something to be proud about, even if you're joyful. I would find people be like, what are you so happy about? But the thing that I was Allowed to be was angry, because angry was aggressive. And aggressive was power. And power was success. And success is the. The ultimate goal for. In traditional men's society. And so I was doing a lot of my own interpersonal work, doing my work around the world. And I found myself graduating from this attachment to my avatar, who I thought I was supposed to be. And I started letting some of that stuff go around. Who. Who am I? What is my role in society? What is my role in a family? And I started really dissecting and unplugging from a lot of these expectations that I had projected or I agreed to myself. And I stumbled into a part where I was felt so lost deep in my work that I became formless. And I really kind of abandoned intuition. I abandoned my practices of like aggressively goal setting and doing all this stuff. And I just. I don't know, I didn't really have models. And I realized the majority of my work was with women. And it's because I trusted women. I grew up with my mom and my three sisters, all of us who were abused. I didn't trust men. I didn't trust men's shadow and what they're capable of, the cause of destruction, the fact that we're perpetrators of violence in our community. And then I came across these men that were just starting this idea of All Kings. And there was something about it that told me, do my work here. And it was the first place that I came to as a man where it wasn't about, what are you trying to achieve? It was all about, where are you right now? And to me, that concept was revolutionary, even 12 years into doing my own work. So men's work allowed me, the arena, to be all of myself and everything that comes within its history.

Wow. Wow. And could you share some of the stories of transformation that you've seen from the individuals who found their way into All Kings and some of the kind of before and after that you've witnessed.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the work that we do, especially specifically working in these communities where it has a higher rate of violence and incarceration. It's unfortunate that the statistics are not really measured for that. You know, we often measure in my work a success, as in reducing recidivism, reducing the. The likelihood of going back to prison, which when I think about transforming our communities, that is not a metric that's really going to have that happen just.

To have someone like a low bar, basically.

Absolutely, absolutely. And so to me, we've have young guys that stop carrying their guns around, you know, what's the consequence of that? We have men. I've had men that, you know, would slam the door in anger, just storm out and leave. A job or a relationship can turn around and saying, hey, can I share something with you? What you said really hurt my feelings. And I have a request around that and I know where it's coming from. But as a partner, as what I'm trying to create with you, this is my request. So to be able to articulate what's going on down there, this, this place down here that we were got taught to ignore, to be able to navigate that process that self regulate or actually also co regulate in, you know, articulate a support. But one of my favorites was there's this guy that did 20 years inside a prison and he was working with me for like a year into his development and he came onto one of our retreats where he led a new, a new participant through. And this participant has, had not been just as impacted. He was this pretty well off guy, banker from Connecticut that just was drawn to our community and he called him a good leader. So my guy's very charismatic and he's, he's always making jokes, he's always having conversations and he was pretty quiet this part of the weekend. So I go up to him, I'm like, what's going on? And he was like, you know, my guy called me a good leader. I'm like, what's, what's standing up for you, brother? What do you feel about that? And part of my language. But he said, I've been told I was a fuck up my entire life. I never thought anybody would call me a leader. You just see this shift within him of this, oh, who am I actually and what can I be? And now he's one of our lead facilitators where we go into district attorney offices or we go to neighborhoods that, you know, a violent crime happened and we can be violence interrupters. And he sees himself there now because he got to reflect that within his community.

That's amazing, man. One thing that I'm curious about is I'm imagining kind of you guys and your leadership team going into, let's say a prison environment. How do you. And this is kind of tying to what a lot of people here in this course are exploring around, like feeling somewhat numb or disconnected or shut off from emotions and just having those, like, you know, maybe there's like anger is online or maybe there's like a very rudimentary set. How do you begin to open the conversation with someone about exploring the broader emotional landscape that may likely have not been safe in. In the past for them.

Yeah, the first thing that I would say is modeling it ourselves. So I have. I, for example, haven't been incarcerated, but when we go into a correctional facility or when we go into a group of guys that maybe just got out of prison or are involved some. Some level in the judicial system, it is not normalized to talk about what's going on. We actually. It's encouraged not to. It's encouraged to be stoic. So when we go in and I go in with a guy that did, you know, five years or 30 years in prison, and we model what it is to be very honest and real. Like, say the thing that's hard to say, say the thing that I don't want you to know about me when I do that. I cause permission for others to do the same where they are like, oh, he just went there and he's actually rewarded by his surroundings to that he allowed himself to go there. Well, I guess I could too. And so this, this container of honesty starts occurring because there's a misconception about vulnerability being this. Waves of emotions and tears and vulnerabilities really, like, how do I keep it as real as possible? How do I be the most. The most authentic, raw version of myself? And when we go there first, when I go there first, we get permission for that to seem to occur.

Yeah, it feels like the. What you mentioned earlier about, like, lacking healthy father figures. It feels like modeling that. And then I guess over time they're able to internalize what it's like to have that kind of healthy, masculine archetype within them as well as have other people that demonstrate it as well?

Yeah, absolutely.

And what, what is some of the barriers or challenges that you see to this type of work, like, really landing in people and being, like, sustainable as well? Like, what are some of the. The typical ways in which people's resistance arises as you kind of attempt to gently lovingly prize them open?

Yeah, I think I'm going to go somewhere that may be a little controversial.

So please.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll go there. At least in the communities that I work with. And I think in the larger community. One thing that I find is that we say we want emotionally, emotionally awakened men. We want men that are able to go into their emotional hemisphere. But the thing is that the majority of our subconscious expectations on traditional cisgender men in our community is, you can go there for a moment, but I also need you to be the man that I Know you to be so what. The reason why I say that is because with our retreats, it's a form of de. Armoring. Right. Somatic experiences, experiential learning, a way of taking the shield off. But before we leave the retreat, we actually encourage men to put the shield back on. And the reason is because of that, is because of the community that we left, the partnerships that are back home waiting for us, the friends, the streets that we're about to go back in, they might not be ready for this new version of myself. And I might be perceptible to being wounded this way. And so there is an encouragement to put the armor up, back up, but just to know when the practice of taking it off. Right. So I think the practice here is how do I create or find environments where I could take the shield off? I could come with my most authentic self and be received so I could safely process whatever's occurring for me because of the fact that, like, that might not be readily available out there when. When I go out. Um, so having the space that I could go to normally to continue unpacking is some way to keep it sustainable. And the second thing to do is be the courageous one to model it around me, you know, and encourage it around me. Again, almost to what I just said before about if I'm willing to go there first, can you go there too? And if I have the courage to bring that to my family and my friends and my community, then. Then it could start to become a culture shift on how we hold each other and how we're seen.

Yeah. It strikes me that maybe one of the most missing things in our culture, in our society today, are these healthy spaces where that armor can be taken off for maybe men and women. And again, for people kind of listening in this space, how might you go about finding or even creating those types of spaces for yourself and for your community?

Yeah, I mean, fortunately, men's work has become increasingly popular, which is. Which been great. You know, there's some that are nationwide or worldwide, or I would assume that there's even plenty in your communities wherever you're dialing in from. So it's also an excavation of, like, what's really important for me, like, not to knock any other men's groups, because I think there's. There's always, you know, pros and cons to everything that is out there. Right. But there's some men's groups that some might explore that really. It really doesn't resonate with me because the focus might be on. On someplace else or might be speaking to a demographic that you don't quite fit in. So the encouragement is to try different communities out and see what else is out there and see what you find within yourself, even the initial resistance that might occur. I think if, if we allow ourselves to dig, if we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and try something out, then we might stumble across something. And if not, there's, there's people that are in our network. I mean you for example, that, that if I do want to spark something myself or create something of my own, to have those that have done it before that have a roadmap about what's essential in a safe container in order to really access my vulnerability and my truth. And there's some best practices that, that anyone could start taking on. In fact, our leadership training is exactly that. Our leadership training is about men cultivating the skills on how to hold safe containers and how to ask these prompts and questions within a confined time and space. So that way we could allow ourselves to go there.

Can you share some examples of like what might some of those daily or weekly practices be that let's say someone is like fairly early in their journey and that but they're looking to kind of continue to practice. What are some of the things that you think are most helpful?

Sure. In a self practice or even a community practice. Meditation is something that is powerful. We do a drop in anytime we lead, facilitate something as a form of meditation to allow ourselves to arrive to this moment and just notice what's present. I'll speak for myself. I'm. I'm in my business mode all the time as even before we got on this call. I'm like yeah, I'm back to back. I'm, I'm running this thing. Are you doing the application? I'm operating a good bit from up here.

Right.

I'm operating from my frequency of busyness and activeness from up here. But then in the drop in is allow myself to go in like where am I at? What's present for me right now? What do I feel? And the framework that some that we often use is something called a PEMS check in P E M S and is physical, emotional, mental, spiritual. Where am I at physically? How am I feeling physically? What's, what's occurring in my body? Where am I at emotionally? What do I feel? What are the different sensations that I might be picking up on and just welcoming them in awe. Not from a place of try to resolve, try to fix. Let me try to shift off of this. Your body and Your mind and your spirit, your emotions are trying to get your attention. So just to try to feel better is ignoring the signals that your body's trying to tell you. And so then mentally and spiritually doing a check in on where am I at right now at this given moment?

Yeah, that's great. It's actually the same practice that we have in our men's group. And it's always fascinating to me how even like two or three minutes of doing that, it can just surface so much information. That was like, just like a couple of layers under the surface. Yeah, that's a great one. So I kind of, I'm tempted to kind of open up for questions from the group here because I really want this to be like a, an interactive kind of flowing and I also want to kind of name that there's quite a few women in this, in this space. So maybe before we open up the questions, how do you. Or how might you. What's the right question here? For women who are looking to kind of support the men in their lives, be it like sons, husbands, fathers, what do you tend to. Or like, how do you tend to start the conversation for women who are looking to kind of like promote men's work and support the men in their lives?

Yeah, you know, the, the journey into doing self reflection for anyone, but let's say doing men's work right now, the more that I uncover, the more that I'm going to realize that was down there dictating my actions and behaviors. And, and so often as I was growing up with the man up, tough enough, boys don't cry, I expedited a lot of my healing. A lot of the things I just had to kind of rush and work through and just get back to being okay. And so to do this work is to, to really reflect inward and really understand the origin of why, why I am the way I am, how did I get here and what's occurring for me, how do I operate? And so that could bring up a lot of things and often in society or in men, where we're perceived to be in this notion of, in our power, in our king, in our sovereigns, in our warrior, in these types of like, elements of that that kind of suggests or includes some type of patriarchal power. Right. If we ask, I've done this exercise so many times in different groups and be like, let's list out all the things that are meant and you'll get the same 20 answers. You'll get the powerful, strong, tall, reliable, and then you'll get the Liars, deceptive, you know, irresponsible. All these things, right. Categorized. But we don't often get compassionate. We don't get vulnerable, we don't get empathetic. We don't get considerate. It's not necessarily a general description of men and masculinity. So as someone is embarking on their journey is to really create spaciousness for whatever might come up. I need to do work for my little boy right now. And can you allow me to be in my little boy right now and not know? Because so much value is attached to you have to know you as the man in this. Like, again, I'm talking about traditional relationships and cisgender men. But you as a man is. Are supposed to have the answers to these things. Can you allow me not to know right now? Can you allow me to get it wrong? Because I'm stepping into a part of myself. I don't. I haven't visited very much. And so to be able to do that takes a lot of work and empathy for what might come up in this excavation. And the second thing I would say is also just getting educated around that. The same way us men could get more educated about feminine archetypes and perceptions and perspectives and experiences, women could also get educated. There's books around this stuff to understand kind of what the nature of these qualities come with. So, yeah, that's what I would say.

That's great. That's so good. And I mean, what that makes me think of is it seems as if masculinity is. There's almost like a shedding of like, what has been labeled, like, toxic masculinity. And it feels like as a culture, we're kind of in this liminal space where we haven't quite crafted a new story for, like, what does a generative, healthy masculinity look like? And so as a result, a lot of men are in this kind of limbo space where they know all the things that they're not supposed to be. They know all the ways in which their behavior has caused, you know, pain and challenge for many, many people. But there's not really like a. Yeah, like, like a kind of well defined story of what is a generative, like, masculine presence. So how do you, how do you think about that? And what, what stories do you attempt to kind of share in. In All Kings.

Can you say that one more time around, around that, like, what, what would.

You say is like the story or even the definition of the healthy masculine. Yeah, that, that we're trying to kind of share and promote each.

Yeah, that is. Well, here's the thing about getting it wrong. I'm still learning, man. You know, I've been doing this work for a while and I'm still getting a hold of what does that actually mean? Because so much of. Since I was a little kid being three years old, playing sports, dusting it off after I took a fall to win is so built into my system. And so I've been in the process of dissecting and really understanding what. What that means. And I think it's really subjective. Right. It's also subjected to my environment and the way that I play a role in my environment. And so, you know, this. The something that we need to do work on as a society is talk about empowered masculinity, you know, and it's talking about like, and. And that's a bit of a taboo topic because we want empowered women. That's okay. But empowered men sounds. Oh, patriarchal men. I have enough power. I'm not talking about that type of power. I'm not talking about dominance power. I'm talking about embodied power. I'm talking about like, welcoming myself. And so what I think it is to be a man is a step towards what it means to be human and be embodied in my masculinity and my femininity, in my inclusivity and my spirituality. To have an embodiment of these different elements of my authentic truth and how I choose to carry that out, because that's also going to dictate what shows up in my surroundings, in my environment. Yeah, I would. I would say just that normalizing that is to what else is part of you, what else is showing up here? And how do we welcome that.

That in.

And in each environment, like if you go into the hood, if you go into these places that I. I go into, what it means to be a man is vastly different. Is if you go to the suburbs. Right. And so it's up for you to really define, but for you to meet yourself in those parts where I might usually close off to keep them open and understand them is my understanding of what it takes for me to be in this environment.

Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said. There was a question in the chat around book recommendations from Raul. Someone's already shared some. What are some of the books or philosophies around men's work that have influenced you personally? And all kings, I would say the.

Main one, especially for all kings, is king, warrior, magician, lover. And you know, it's off of Carl Jung's 12 archetypes and Robert Moore wrote, King, Warrior, Magician, Lover is the four archetypes that we utilize to understand. Kind of like an introductory of understanding our elements to doing that. There's another book that's not necessarily driven towards men. It's called no Bad Parts. And it's about parts work and understanding that we all have these deep, deeper personalities within ourselves that are dictating our thoughts and our behaviors. And it's almost that contrasting feeling of like, oh, I want to launch this business. Oh, but you know, you don't have enough time or you don't have enough resources, or you're not smart enough. These are two different parts of me that are talking. So to doing parts work is understanding those elements on who are those voices that are in my head influencing my thoughts and behaviors and telling me what to do. So books like that I think that are really powerful, but I think King, Warrior, Magician, Lover is a really powerful way to start.

Yeah. And something that comes to mind for me is I almost think of those four archetypes as being like parts in a way. Like you can kind of have conversations between the warrior and the lover, for example, where they might be in conflict. Can you give an example of how what might sound quite abstract, you know, talking about like, like archetypes. How is that practical in terms of like someone's lived experience? How is understanding those archetypal roles and energies actually useful in kind of like day to day life?

Yeah, I. Understanding that framework, I think is really important. Just because we're in more of a boxing, we think we are, you know, these, these societal norms or how we need to participate. There's different energies that come with the different archetypes. So for example, like the way I describe it is like the warriors in my stomach. It's the fire, is the gut, is the powers, the creator, destroyer. That type of action like that, that passion in my belly. Right. The lover is the heart, the empath, the, the considerate, the one that shows up for my family, the one that longs for, you know, even the parts that are addicted is the ones that are grasping. You know, there's light and shadow in each archetype. The magician is the mind, the creative. The playing with thoughts and daydreaming is also the critic, the one that's judging us and the one that's saying, oh, that was really stupid, you should know better. Or the one that's like, oh, I have this really interesting idea and that sovereign is that king or queen? Is that like alignment? It's like, which one do I allow to Speak when and who drives and how do I allow these different parts to take place? Take space is what roots me to the ground, and it connects me up to the divine. So to understand these general universal archetypes, there's many more, right? There's many, many more. As many as you could imagine. To understand these is for me to know when I could shift into a different archetype. It's like, oh, I'm around my family right now, but I'm still very much in my warrior. Okay, let me drop into my heart real quick. Let me. Let me take a time to ground and get really intentional about what I want to cause and create here. And it's a thing that also just activates when I'm in emergency. Oh, my warrior. I need to kick my warrior on because there's something that needs to be resolved right now, and it's counting on me to do so. So these archetypes are a simple framework of understanding and developing to know when we're overusing one or when we're deep shadow or deep light in others.

Yeah. Can you share an example of what are some of the more common shadow sides of these archetypes that you see arise in. Yeah. In men's work? Like, what are ways in which shadows might be playing out that are in kind of below conscious awareness?

I would say the king and the warrior. The warrior is actually probably the most common because I think it's the most encouraged. We were taught to be. Uh, and so the warrior is the one that's productive. Right. Is the one that can be constructive and make things happen and get things done. Uh, it's. It could be efficient, it could be rigorous, but that could also be overbearing. When I'm only in my warrior and I'm only in action mode, I'm eliminating presence. I'm eliminating this, like, this divine connection that I might have around me because I'm in that driver's seat moving. Right. It's all about progress and creation and destruction, like I said. So being that that's one of our most overused archetypes as men, finding how do we balance that out and how that takes place was like, wow. Like that. Really. I operate a lot from this space, so. And it's the same thing of I was saying in the magicians, like the critic, being constantly stuck in the mind and overthinking to, like, allow myself to catch myself while I'm in that process and. And step out of that cycle, I'm like, hold on, let me grumble quick. I Am overthinking a lot. I am feeling anxious as hell. There's something going on here. What needs to happen here and let me go and check in. So having a practice of really identifying and being aware of a shadow when it's being brought to the light, I think is a very powerful tool. The thing that I'll say about that is when I started doing this work, I resonated least with the magician. It actually took me a little bit to understand. It's like I don't really quite understand what the magician is. This, like, daydreamer. I don't think I have much magician. And at the same time, I would be in here spinning my wheels, spinning my wheels. So once I realized, oh, this is the quality, the archetype of the magician, and these are the lights and shadows, I could identify when I'm in a spiral and when I'm not.

Yeah, I resonate with that as well. And for me, the magician is almost like the lenses through which we perceive our lives and particularly the stories that we tell, whether they're conscious or unconscious. What are the stories that are operating the way that we move through the world and realizing that we can be conscious of those and then also tell a different story, Tell a story that is more generative, or tell a story that serves in a different way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm curious about you, of your. Your journey and your archetypes and. Or even just doing these parts work stuff of, like, what you found you naturally gravitated towards or what you had most resistance towards.

Yeah, thank you. I really found a lot of benefit in journaling between the different parts when I had something, some kind of challenge in my life, whether it was like a relationship conflict or like doubt at work, and having the king as almost like the moderator. So the king being kind of like the capital S self in parts work that was really helpful for me. And combining the archetypes with somatic work as well. So whether it was through breathwork or just kind of somatic inquiry, building presence in my kind of belly area was a practice for a long time. And kind of connecting to not only healthy anger, but then also this sense of, like, fierce discipline was a piece also with the lover as well. This is something I think is very common for a lot of men is like, challenging to. People find it. Men find it challenging to really receive love or receive compliments or receive appreciation. It's very. It's. For me, I. I think it's much easier to give appreciation and love than it is to feel Vulnerable enough to actually receive that from other people. And so kind of working on that, both in a kind of somatic sense of, like, reducing tension in the back of my chest and really letting in compliments or appreciation or love in different forms has been. Is an ongoing practice.

Yeah. Yeah. And I also want to say that the importance of us doing this work together is that you just said loosening that point in the back of my chest. And as you said that I, like, I looked in there and see, felt if I could loosen mine.

Right.

And that's the beauty of us doing this together and circle work and men's work and. Or just finding communities of a space of reflection is because sometimes I don't know the thing to say. I don't know the thing to say. I can't really see it, but someone else across from me can name it, and it could just trigger me and be like, oh, that. That's the thing that I've been feeling. I just didn't have words for it. And now I have some level of power to an agency to explore what that might be for me.

Yeah. Yeah. It really feels like the. One of the core missing pieces for a lot of men is having that fierce, loving kind of feedback. So something that like. Like come. That could be perceived as critical, but comes from a place of love out of a sense of, like, seeing more potential or seeing a version of you that's in higher integrity and kind of delivering that in a loving way, I think is such a. Can be such a gift. And it's really, you know, outside of men's groups. I think it's really lacking in our society.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I want to start opening up from questions from the group. So if you guys have something you're curious about or something you'd like to speak to Raul about, do you want to raise your virtual hand? And we'll take a few questions here. All right. Starting with Adrian. Hey, there.

Hello.

Hi.

How's it going, Adrian? Yep.

I've got a question, because I think you've both touched it a little bit. I'm thinking about developing the healthy warrior, healthy anger drive. Because looking back. Back at my history, I think that my father wasn't that. Isn't that driven in life and as developing my business, in my career, I see that I'm lacking that healthy aggressiveness. And I see, for example, some people developing further in my field only because they do things, not necessarily because I perceive them as better, and I'd like to develop it in a healthy way. Problem is, I Don't really know how to start. I've had, I've had a group of like a men's group. Last year, unfortunately it dissolved. So I'm on my own. So if you had any advice how to sort of deal with it on my own, that would be great.

Yeah. I got something for you, Adrian. So I want to acknowledge that you have clothes on your back right now. I want you to acknowledge that you're in maybe an air controlled space or maybe you're not hungry right now. And these are part attributes of the warrior figuring it out. And you're here on this call. So there's a lot that you are figuring out that you might not be giving yourself credit for, maybe something to just try on. I'm not right about any of this stuff. But what I would say is if you want to develop it is to really identify all the ways you are already being it. Even when you say I'm going to get up at this time and or I'm going to cook a meal tonight or I'm going to go for a walk and then you do it to acknowledge that might seem so small, but to acknowledge yourself that I am my word. I said I was going to do something and I did it. And these little things are development of almost like strengthening the muscle of the warrior. Right. Identifying all the ways you are in the warrior and giving yourself acknowledgment and credit when you are that. So that way you could, you could practice it and do it again because the more repetition and comfort you are at recognizing the part of you, the more activated and is going to start to feel. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I mean it's super interesting because my default way of thinking is that I'm not enough or I haven't done enough. So it's almost like totally different approach what you said.

Yeah, yeah. And this is also, you know, the tricksters of the magician of like enough is a comparison to where you expect yourself to be or where you maybe might perceive something being a value where I'm not yet. Right. But one thing that I, I also something that I came across in my own work because I, I've had that of I'm not doing enough. Even when I was high performing, doing all the things I was, I was, you know, thriving in my business. I was going around the world doing this work and it was like still not enough. It's still not enough. And I realized also the place that it was coming from. And I'm just going to speak on my. For me right My experience about it, I realized the place that I was coming from was this extreme deficit of wanting something so bad and, and not having it. And in my community we say what we want most, we give best. So the thing that I want to cause the most is the thing that I desire also the most, you know, and that's the thing that I'm capable of creating. And so to, you know, if, if life was to end right now, you know, God forbid, if life was to end right now, am I, do I hold myself in judgment for where I didn't arrive? Or can I hold myself to the fact that this is what I chose for my day today, this is how I chose to be. This is, this was my intention and this is what I lived behind. So it really like the journey arc the achievements are going to be constant all through life. No matter what, there's all you're always going to be at the bottom of the next ladder. Right. But again, that self acknowledgment and of like what my intention is and how I choose to perceive and practice and the fact that I'm showing up this call recognition is a big part of that man. So yeah, again, in, in the activating and strengthening the warrior is to realize how you've been this warrior all along to get you exactly where you are. And the more you do that, the more of an instrument it becomes.

Amazing. Thank you.

Yeah.

Hey there, Venus.

Oh, hi.

Sorry.

Hi, Raul. I, I, I'm curious about how to have deeper conversation with my husband and.

Oh, you want to mute again? Yeah.

Hi.

Yeah.

So recently I start hearing struggles from my husband. Normally he never share nothing, but I think he share with me because I share with him. I shared my authentic thoughts with him. Then he told me something I felt really, really important that I don't know how to explain because I'm not meant, I don't know how, how it means for men to have those feelings. But he just says I don't feel anymore. But he has something he's working on for a really long time and it just has not been working on working well. And I totally understand what that feels, but I could not give him, I don't know how to support him to be open again. And I'm not sure if I'm hearing things correctly or like if there's anything I can, anything you can give me advice understanding more about what it means of a man saying I'm not feeling. But I know I want to get there. But because we are in a relationship of marriage, so it's kind of important for me to know what I should do.

Yeah. So let me see if I'm hearing you right. So that he usually doesn't share about what was going on for him and then recently or suddenly he did and now he's retracted back to not sharing. Is he still sharing? Because I also heard you say that he said that he's not feeling anything or he doesn't feel anything.

Yeah, he had shifts after that conversation. I, I, I feel he's trying making effort in talking to me more.

Yeah, yeah.

And he start to go morning exercise regularly just after our talks because I, I gave him a lot of advice on how I see and how I feel. And he like, about a week later he, I asked him again how, how did it go? And he's like, I just don't feel anything. And I know you, you talk to me about a lot of things, but I just don't know how, how to feel it. But then I start saying he is doing something differently. Maybe.

Yeah.

But I just.

Yeah, I get that. Venus, if I could share. There's a number of things that pop up for me. One is the fact that you're being open and honest and vocal about your experience.

Right.

So like I said before, is modeling a sense of, of openness and vulnerability. And again, it doesn't have to be heavy. It's just very honest about what's, what's occurring for you and your ability to name that. Secondly is as I think this goes back and I'm generalizing here, but what I said before around men's role in society is to know and especially if he's been trying to build something or trying to like, I know when I'm like building my business and everything like that, there's the insecurities about what I don't know. And there was so much shame in what I don't know or what I, what I have a hard time figuring out. And that's really hard for a lot of men to really be in this. Like, I, I don't know how to do it. I'm, it's not working. I'm not figuring out. And there's tremendous amount of like pressure and shame around being in that position. So one of the things that I find is most powerful is also just to listen. It's, it's not about advising or saving or changing or anything like that. It's really creating a space where could just be heard and say like, yeah, I hear you say this and I hear is really stressing you out. What do you need. You know, because I could have my perception about what I think you should do or could do, but that might not even be what he's sharing in the first place. You know, so something that I've done with. With, you know, a partner is I've asked, what do you need right now? Do you want me to just listen or do you want me to share about what I would do or my thoughts about this as creating the normality and permission of having dialogues and conversations and also just giving that grace that he might have pulled back right now because that level of vulnerability might have been scary for him. And that's okay, right? To continue making the space to invite back in. And whether he choose to or not right now, I think is essential for saying, cool. You could choose not to share right now. You might not be feel right now. I'm still going to ask you tomorrow. How you feeling? You're back on mute.

So, for instance, I'm asking you a question and you have been pausing for like an hour or two. Should I just keep waiting or should I just come back tomorrow? Or like.

Well, you could the. That's a. That might be a great question to ask him. Hey, I noticed that, you know, when I asked you before, you shared and now that you don't want to share, do you. Do you not want to share right now? Yeah. What do you need right now? Do you rather not share right now? And because I love you, because I care for you, is it all right that I ask you tomorrow? Because I want to know that you feel great or that you're empowered or that you could be open about whatever thing you might be struggling with. It's okay if you don't want to share, but the same question that you're asking here, something that you could also ask him.

Okay.

Yeah. I think there's a sense of honesty and vulnerability. It's like, oh, I want them to share. I want them to feel this way. And we don't actually tell the person. It's like, you know what? I would love to hear what's authentically going on for you. I would love to hear more about what you experienced through the day, and I would love to share more of mine as well. And it doesn't have to be heavy. It could just be something, when it does come up, to just celebrate. Awesome. We just. We were just real. It's not about resolving or fixing anything. We just had an honest moment. And I really appreciate that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you, Venus. That was beautiful.

Hey, Raul. Appreciate your sharing. Here I've been going to a men's circle recently and it's been pretty awesome and got pretty curious about sort of the practices that you've seen in those circles that are really, that work really well. Have only experienced like a few just with this circle, but potentially interested in leading some of these in the future. So it'd be interested, like what are some of the practices you seen that feel really good for people and really help men? Yeah. So for us, when we facilitate circle, it's the, the. Our kind of general framework is we do a drop in first. The way that I mentioned before, we do a check in on what's present for us. We always check out with what are we leaving with? And we almost always give each other what we call blessings is pretty much like a recognition of like something that you might admire someone or, you know, that you want to acknowledge something that they shared, their, their willingness of where they went to. Because again, I think championing each other in this form of relating is super important to normalizing it. Okay, cool. I just shared that thing that was really hard to say. And you know, one of the things that we, we say in this container also is shame dies when shared in a safe space. So you just shared something that was very vulnerable and I want to acknowledge you for going there. And so though that might feel sticky, that might feel that I just went hard and I feel tender, I'm also getting recognized for the fact that I had the courage and willingness to be that honest and real about this thing that I've been holding on to. And the weight just sheds off. Another thing that I would also add is just prompts.

There's.

There's so many different. I mean, there's infinite amount of prompts that you could think of just talking points because instead of. I, I often come across this in my work where it doesn't suffice to ask someone, especially at the gate, what do you feel? It's like, we have guys that come into my community. It's like, what do you feel? It's like I'm feeling hungry and feeling tired. I'm like, no, no, no. What's the emotion that's behind that? And it's like, well, I don't know how to go there, but tell me a story then tell me one of the things that, you know, formed you or where'd you learn how to be a man? What was your greatest inspiration and like seeing a man when you were a kid? Was it a comic book figure? Was it grandpa? Was it like, what Was it and what you learned from there. And under these narratives, I could start to invite permission in these stories that I might have just ignored and over, like, overlooked. I start to feel like that kind of activation of what else was, was down there. And I'm like, wow, I didn't realize that that person had that much of an influence on me. Great. And that's just part of the dialogue and continue unfolding. I think you went on mute. That's awesome. Super helpful.

Yep.

Thanks, Paul. Sweet. Thank you. Thank you, Paul. Hey, Patrick.

Hey.

Hey, Jody. Thanks for that, Raul. Thank you as well. This is really, really interesting and inspirational. The question I wanted to ask is specifically with a focus on like thinking about teenage boys. Yeah. How do you think about when they get, what do you think about when they get exposed to online charlatans who pedal a specific narrow dimension, narrow notion of masculinity that's kind of terrible but really seductive to many teenage boys. What I'm just interested in your thoughts there and maybe ways of thinking about approaching this if this came into your circle. Yeah, this is, this is actually a really tough one because it dances the line of shame, of not shaming anyone for what they perceive to be powerful, beautiful and, you know, replicating could be a sense of like, don't do that, do this instead. Right. And it's less, it's less about the behavior we're trying to avoid rather than the behavior we're trying to encourage. And so to me, the, the greatest step that I could see is being that embodied masculine boldly to the best of your ability and modeling that instance, because there's one, there's one side that we're not going to take social media away that's going to be there. There's going to be a lot of this side of what masculinity is supposed to be and these types of figures that are going to be very influential and in a sense of, oh, for women or money or power or success, there's also, there's, there's something beneath that. And so to having very real and honest conversations around what's beneath that and what our desires coming from. And like when we talk to some, some guys, like, I want to, I want to live that made life, you know, I want to, I want to have this, this type of car. It's like, what does that car mean to you? So this just means that like, you know, I made it and I could, you know, I, I, I feel powerful. It's like, what does that look like for you? What does that Mean, you made it for you. It's like, well, it means I don't have to worry about things. You know, I could. I could just feel, like, pretty confident where I'm at. It's like, so confidence is important for you and making this like, yeah, where. Where do you want to be at? So the more conversations we actually have about what that thing represents, what that character represents, what those achievements represent, we could start getting to a real place. It's like, man, I just really want to be safe and comfortable. I. I really just don't want to deal with this struggle of insecurity and, you know, or fear of being bullied or there's something that's deeper underneath that. It's like, okay, cool, I hear you. And if we could take that model, especially if we have relationships with. With these young men, to be like, okay, cool, I hear confidence things, so how can we work on confidence together? And that might not be a dialogue to have, but it's just more of an exposure thing of another. What else confidence could look like or other forms of confidence we could achieve? Um, I think that addresses a good bit of it rather than trying to detour away from. From this type of stuff. And if they have the ability to have conversations, it's. It's. Is to just share your input. Right? Yeah. Like, I'm just going to go on just a little bit more about this. We have young men that are in the gang life and street life in my community, and we're never saying, you shouldn't do that. We don't. We don't tell someone we're supposed to do because we know, like, so why you? Are you part of that gang? What do you get out of that? It's like, oh, well, you know, I feel strong and feel safe. It's like, when did that start? It was like, well, you know, I live in the projects, and I couldn't go to the grocery store without coming across these other group. And so the gang made me feel safe. So safety is something you look for. Got it. What else? Well, the only people that are, you know, mom is working two jobs, and, you know, we struggle with money, and the only people that have money are these guys. Okay, cool. So safety and security is something that. Okay, cool. And so once we start dissecting that, these guys be like, oh, man, I'm outsourcing my things that I'm looking for in these places. But this is also the consequence of that. I actually want that. How do I cause that for myself? And they start thinking, because now they know about why they're attracted to it. So revealing. That, I think, is a big. It's a big thing of, like, being in dialogue and not wronging someone for. For their attraction, but just getting them to realize why they're attracted to it in the first place.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really great. Thank you. Yeah, man.

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Patrick Martin. Hey, there.

Thanks, Johnny.

Hey, Martin.

Just something came up and you said the word safety. And it's funny because I've been on a bit of a journey and I've been using or appreciating using the community within SM and a couple of other places as my sort of working men's groups, even though they're mixed and.

I.

Think I can appreciate. I've often thought about starting one where I live, a dedicated men's group and would be interested in, obviously, the benefits I think I can see to containing it just to men. But the safety element that you just brought up is something that I was reflecting on last night. I'm also doing another program called Rite of Passage. So I'm sort of extracting some of my experience over the last 18 months. And a lot of that is dark Night of the Soul sort of stuff. As I sort of hit middle age and went through a bit of a renewal and deeper transformation, which I'm in a really good place. And it's nice. And hearing some of the stories you shared and the work you do at certain demographics is heartwarming. And I do appreciate how lucky I am. But even for me, and everyone has their own experience, obviously, this. This idea of safety really just. It came to me last night and I was like, this is like, I know that I have to do this. I'm looking to write for the rest of my career or life, and it's a big career change and there's a lot of unsafety around that as I'm independent and security. And it just hit me. I was like, I have to do this for my own safety. I have to. I can never go back to where I was before, like, pre burnout, the work I was doing, the. The situation I found myself in for my own safety. And it just. It's lit a fire under me for. For writing and being able to express in certain ways. Because if I knew that if I didn't perhaps get to the stage where I feel like I am now, that safety might never be there. I'd always be not able to operate from source.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to see if is there, I want to make sure that I didn't miss a question or if it's just like thoughts you're sharing around safety.

Have a neurodiverse brain and I often get to the question at the end. So thank you for offering it. Maybe you have a coaching question. Just one. Not to take up too much of your time, but what could you reflect on what I just said?

Well, for sure, I think what, I'm curious what safety means for you because safety means different contexts. If it's a physical safety, if it's a emotional safety, if it's a stability safety that caused me to feel safe, if it's a relational safety, you know, there's, there's many different forms of when I feel safe, I feel this, right? This is my indicator that I'm safe. Because safe is subjective, right? But in the experience of when I feel that I'm in a safe space, I'm feeling calm, I'm feeling seen, I'm feeling supported, I'm feeling sheltered, I'm feeling these different things. So I really come into the core understanding of what does safe within myself look like? And how do I self generate that, right? How do I cause that for? How do I experience that within myself, right? I'm not talking about within, I'm not talking about by myself, I'm talking about within myself, right? And so again, meditation, internal work, men's work, mental and emotional wellness, these physical practices that has me feel safe in body then now I'm out body also of myself. How do I cause safety in my environment, in my stability, my, my structure, my employment, my household in this, like in these confinements, how do I feel safe? And then after that is how do I feel relationally? How do I cause safety in camaraderie, in connection, in romance, in co workers or this type of outside relational stuff? So come into that basis of what does safe actually mean to you and what do you desire? And if you could ask yourself from your heart's mind what that looks like, then you could be like, okay, cool. Then if peaceful or if grounded feels safe for me, how can I cause things for myself to. So that I could tap into peace and calm, meditation, workout, massage, whatever it is it might be I could start going and generating that. And the byproduct is that I feel safe within myself.

Thank you. I'm going to take that as the what or the how. I think you phrased it as how does that come about? How do you find that safety? What came up for me while you're Speaking was actually the question I think I was trying to formulate for myself internally, which is the why. Why do I not feel safe? Or why in the past had I not felt safe? I don't feel I'm in that vulnerable place now, but I. And thanks in. In great part due to the community and Johnny's work as well, I've been able to. Because I did have a full nervous mental breakdown during that phase. And as well as being very depressed and suicidal. And I've been able to wrangle, I think, during this experience that I can feel connected and energized, but also calm. And that's been a real change in the last sort of three to six months during my sabbatical. But just to answer very quickly, the why, I think for me, in case, just to close the loop, it's not new information to me, but it's deeply rooted to the fact that I am, as, I think at some point, many of us, or many people, older people, end up in that situation. I'm midlife. I'm an only child. My mother's in the end stages of her life, losing her cognitive powers. I had no, like I said, no, obviously no brothers or sisters of biologicals. In a sense, I do rely on a close, very close circle of, like, trusted family and chosen family. And that why is very much something that I had to come to terms with. So now I think it's about the how.

Yeah, yeah. And an invitation that I have for you, if you're. If you're open to hearing, is I hear that you also been feeling a lot safer within yourself as of recently, and just gratitude for whatever work you needed to go through to overcome that depression, for that stage of whatever you were confronting, battling suicide, all that stuff, I don't take that lightly, man. That it takes. Takes a lot. Takes a lot for you to be here and thank you for figuring it out to be right here. And that says a lot. And in those moments. Yeah, just breathe them in. In those moments of you being safe within yourself, if you could just scan your body and see where you. You feel that nugget of safety, if it's in your chest, if it's in your stomach. And what I said before, around listening from your heart's mind is not about what do I do. To feel safe is let your body tell you as. As you drop into that and find where you carry that, that feeling, that sensation in your body, to just ask it or to see, all right, what does this part of me need? How do I operate from here. Right. Because shadow stuff comes up, dark days come up. But if I could practice creating home right here, where I could feel that sense of safety, I could start normalizing more for sustainability within myself and have more tools for when those times come.

Yeah, that's what I've been. I've been focusing on that and, and creating that resilience without. And strength without leading into like the masculine term, like without it being overpowering from. From a. You know, just sitting there in the mind and. Yeah, so I feel I have done.

A lot of that.

There's still always work to do. But much thank Johnny and.

Yeah, and thank you, man. Thank you for your vulnerability and your realness for that. Appreciate you.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you so much, Martin. That was. That was beautiful. Thank you for being here. Mary Louise. Hey there.

Hello.

I just wonder, have you done any work with women? Because we are the spouses, we are the mothers, and we are just a very important part of this equation. So how can we help to embrace and to. To foster this culture and change that is needed?

Yeah, absolutely. I've. I've worked a lot with women prior to running this organization. The majority of my work was actually with women in doing mindset, emotional intelligence work and development of like really finding those routines and anchor points. Right now my organization is just for men and young men. We do have some women that want to launch all queens because to your point, you know, this, this crisis of, you know, the highest rate or highest country of incarceration, you have the maternal figure that is often raising families on their own and holding households on their own. So the trauma of dealing with that. And plus men being the perpetuator of violence, a lot of times our women get the brunt of that violence or the brunt of that trauma of that unconsciousness just untethered and going out there. You know, there are. There are different. There are several groups that work with. With women in support, and there's obviously, you know, not enough. I think there could be more that's done.

I was talking about how can we support you? Like, how can we do our work? But yeah, we support the work that you are doing. Like, you said that you have to put your armor before going to the world again and then go again to the men's group and you can be vulnerable again. So how can we help you to be vulnerable, like in your daily life as women?

So one thing is, I'll say create space for it. So asking and just having open conversations where you share and you invite others to share Listening from a very like non judgmental of just like a very open place and celebrating what, what someone is sharing. Right. So almost to, to the point that I was making before around not trying to necessarily fix resolve or anything, but really just creating a space of like celebrating that type of recognition of someone's vulnerability and is also just be able to celebrate what we see. I think as, I think, I mean think humanity can do so much better at giving each other acknowledgment. You know, it's, it's one thing that I've said. Like I don't remember the last time I told my mother how much I love her and how important she is and the impact that she's made on me. I kind of assume she knows. Same thing with partners, same thing with children. It's like, oh, this is assumed love. But making the practice of articulating the value of what we see I think is a big part of just like saying hey, all of you is welcome here. I want it and I want, I, I, I owe something to it. Like I want to honor it. So I would say that if you, if you experience vulnerability from a partner or the men is to, to really support it and welcome it because that's a very fragile place for a lot of men to be. So acknowledgement and honoring is, is a way to keep them safe in those moments of vulnerability.

Thank you.

Yeah.

That'S really beautifully said, Raul. Thank you. Thank you. Marilis Kello, I was wondering.

One thing I struggle with with masculinity is how to create confidence with men that are more on the real masculine skill. For example, you work with gang members and often when I show up, for me it's harder to connect because I'm a little bit more on the feminine side, more on the emotional side. And I sometimes have the feeling either in work that I have to overshadow myself or position myself in a different way to feel connection and to really get my foot within the door to even gain that confidence, even to get into a conversation. So I was really curious if you have any tips for me on how I can hold myself better or how to interact with those people without, for me to, to present myself differently.

Yeah, the, the thing that I would say that is to not position yourself differently is to be you confidently because especially if I, if I go into, you know, I, I fortunately have an like, I, I, I feel really connected to the, my feminine side as I shared with you before. And also I have an ability to reach some of these young guys where they're at. Right. I have enough edge for them to listen to me. But the thing that works for them is that I'm not trying to BS them on like saying, hey, this is a version of me that I could be for you. Because I think they feel that. I think others sense that. But if you could be powerfully in who you are, then there's respect there, there's an admiration there. For example, we have guys in our community. Not everyone is just as impacted. We have some guys that come from different economical background backgrounds and different forms of employment. Some of them are doing really well to the earlier point. All of us are dealing with something.

Right.

All of us have something. It's just part of humanity. And the fact that creates such a bond is you are being real about where you're at and what's occurring for you, not trying to fit in for what's right for me. Right. And in that dynamic, we could choose. And you might not be for everybody. You might not be for that guy that only wants to surround himself around these a types, super masculine, whatever that might be. And that's all right. You know, I think it's allowing yourself to be really anchored and rooted in who you are. It's the best shot of someone authentically connecting with you. Yeah.

What I also experienced is that because I also had to deal with a lot of anxiety. And for example, in my men's group, because we had a really eight type men's group that I was seen as the shadow, which I showed up for a lot of people and I took. I basically was the visual version of the shadow. They were disacknowledging. So that was why there was no connection. And there was a lot of pressure against me. So that's also sometimes some things I struggle with.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I said before around, like, trying different groups out. There's some men's groups that I've been a part of that are all about like, let's be warriors, let's be lions. It doesn't really work for me. I have my years of being a lion. I don't need to be aligned. I could. I need to learn how to be softer. Right. So find the different groups because they all have their value of what they do. So trying out different spaces where it'd be like, let me practice being my most authentic self here. And how is that received and how was that? And you could start cultivating and strengthening what you initially have, rather than trying to leave who you are to suit something else. Right. Because this the Dance with anxiety. Dance with this battle of who I'm supposed to be and what I want to cultivate more of. If you're not feeling safer, grounded into that, that could be more wounding for you than. Than beneficial.

Yeah. I think this really hits home, to be honest, that it maybe what's resonating with me that it was trying to find acceptance from them instead of finding my authentic self. So it was more about.

Yeah.

Fitting in then about developing myself. So that's. Thank you for that.

That mirror. For sure, man. For sure. Because then the validation, as long as it's external, you will be relying on the external validation for you to know if you're enough. And that's never the sustainable way, you know? So it's. Yeah. Finding a place where you could be seen and loved. Exactly. For how you are. And as you improve the ways that you want to improve. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Kees, Raoul, I want to honor the time that we set.

We could keep it going for a bit more, and I'll just handle stuff.

Okay. All right. Appreciate that. Thank you. Daniel, you're up next.

Thank you, Roald, and thanks for being here today. So I was wondering if you could share your perspective on this possibly masculine urge to fix things. I made these experiences where I consciously stop myself from. From helping people with things, and I see them being able to do it themselves, and I feel quite good about that. But I also made the opposite. I mean, there's also other situations where it just doesn't work, where things for other people just won't happen unless you do them yourself for them. And I find it really hard to balance between these two.

Yeah. Yeah, man. I totally hear that. That resonates for me. As a former savior addict, I was like, oh, I got answers for that. Let me just resolve this stuff. I even have, like, resistance, even maybe even a little bit now of, like, I. I'm. I'm much more fascinated by what I don't know rather than I do know, so to speak, on what I think or what I believe is not always the place I like to be anymore. I think I used to be there. But there's a sense of. There's some people that you will choose not to resolve it for that. Won't resolve it right now. But it could be the key thing of what. What gets created in them for later. Right. So is not necessarily your job or role to save someone from themselves. You could be there of support. You could be there an anchor, and you could bring in your Wisdom. Look, one of the things that I have, like, one of the things I think we're trying to heal from in masculinity as well is that in this new age of not being toxic, masculine and all that stuff, that phrase that gets thrown around, there's this almost this like, forfeiting of masculinity. Let me just sit on my gold, let me sit on my blessings, let me sit on my tools that I have to not be toxic. When you have power, man, part of your power is your ability to resolve. Part of your power is your critical thinking, maybe, or your analytical self, or your driven self, or your ambitious, your rigorous self. You know, these are part of your golden attributes. And so to, to own them and be with them, giving people the spaciousness to, to fall and if they fall, might be what they needed in order to learn how to get back up. And as long as you keep on stepping in there and getting them back up, they might not develop that tool, you know, So I don't think there's a wrong doing. I think you asking yourself with good intention about what you intend, what you mean by it, and also being in communication around that, like, hey, what do you need? I see that this is not working for you. What do you want to do with that? What do you need? And let them say, I need support. Or maybe they just want to figure it out and like, okay, I'm gonna plug this in real quick. There's family, friend and spiritual relationships. I read this somewhere, I forgot where. Family relationships is often rooted in fear, right? It's like a mother's love. Don't aim for the stars. Don't go for your dreams. Find yourself a comfortable job. Find yourself someone to marry, have some kids, play safe, you know, I know how cruel the world could be. I don't want, I want to solve you from that. So family is almost in this fear. I just want you to be okay. Friendships is almost enjoy. And avoidance joy is. I want to be joyful. And avoidance like, oh, you're sad, let's make you happy, let's try to change that. And in these spiritual relationships is I'm going to accompany you on your journey and I'll support you, but I won't do it for you. I'm just going to be right here. And if you're down, I'll sit down and I'll be right down with you. If you want to thrive, cool, I'll be there. And if you want to help in hand, cool, I'll be there too. But it's not your role to resolve their life. Right. Is for them to live in you. Having the resilience and love to honor their journey wherever they're at.

It's quite profound. Thank you.

Thanks, man.

I'll think about that for a while.

Beautiful. Thank you. Daniel.

Hi.

Thank you.

Thank you for your time. I have, I have a short one. So about you, something you said earlier, and I noted it, receive love and appreciation. Feels vulnerable. Vulnerable. You know what I mean? And I resonate with this, but I don't. Cannot understand why. Is it, Is it because it is vulnerable to feel anything at all either? Because it's. Because we are feeling. I'm feeling I'm not enough to receive this love and appreciation. How does it, how does it work? How do we live with this? Solid.

Yeah. My perception of it is, is, you know, from a young. The thing that I was saying before, and this is just what I understand about my upbringing, right. And, and maybe common day society here is that like it was rooted in our, our pride was rooted in accomplishments. You know, if we played sports, if we achieved this thing, or the things that we see in movies, the jocks, the guys that have the girls again, like the, the ones that get recognized are those that achieve.

Right.

And the, the way that is recognized is attention, love, material things, whatever it is. But it's often not in. Through a sense of expression of care. Right? Because then that would be me leaning into my emotional receptor of like, hey, I want to tell you how much I value you. That's significantly harder for men generally than receiving something of like, oh, a medal of plaque of honor or a promotion. That's easier to get because it's a material thing. And I'm used to doing that. I'm used to getting a trophy. I'm used to being in the status. But to hear the things that I value or the things that I admire, appreciate. I know for me that's. I, I was. It's so much easier for me to give, to dish it out than to receive it myself. And I would actually feel the compliments just bounce off my chest and hit the ground because I was also raised critical. I was recognized for the things that I, I haven't done or that I'm missing rather than the appreciation of what I do have. So it's a practice of allowing myself to. Okay, cool. I just. My body's not used to this. My body's not used to being recognized or loved by this. Great. Let me, let me practice right now. Let me just listen to what this person has to say and being in that sense, because if. If it's uncomfortable for you, then you might have just not learned how to really be in that or receive that or just be enough as you are. It might have been attached to what you were doing. So something to maybe just practice.

I see. So it's just unusual. That's why it feels.

It can be.

Well, strange.

Yeah.

Okay. Thank you.

Yeah.

Beautiful. Thank you. Nick. Ocean, if you want to bring us.

Home, I'll do my best. Yeah. Mine's part question, part share. Going back to what you were saying earlier about listening. I have a brother who I would say I very much took on, like, caregiver role to him growing up. And I found that my default was to just listen and hold the space for him. But then in recent years, he's been dealing with some severe mental illness challenges. That is very hard for me to hold and for me to support him through. And I went through a phase of, like, just throwing, you know, resource and, like, support at him and getting frustrated at, like, I'm doing so much, I'm giving so much and it's not doing anything. He's not receiving it. And so now I've. I've come kind of back to the other side of, okay, I'm just going to take on the role of listener. And we had a really profound conversation recently where I just listened and we had a, like, what felt like a conversation we would have had as teenagers. It felt light hearted, it felt real. And he shared that he really enjoyed the conversation. He learned a lot about himself and that he felt heard. And I was like, okay, there's like power there and there's kind of beauty. But then there's still the part of me that's like, he doesn't have support. He doesn't have a healthy, masculine role model in his life. We didn't have that growing up. And so I, I still find myself going into the space of like, really, I. I look at myself as, like, I'm the only person that can do anything to support him.

Yeah.

And so it's like, I wonder what advice you might have for A, me as the person kind of holding that and then B, whether there's any resource that you could point someone towards. It's like resource constrained and not necessarily looking for this kind of support. Not even knowing that they might benefit from these kinds of spaces.

Yeah.

Yeah. So one, I just want to thank you for being in his corner because I promise you that he feels that as he encounters this, sometimes this, you know, I've I've felt like the hits of life and things are just hard and things are just keep on failing. Even if I have in hindsight I see I had the agency to do something different in that moment. I was doing the best I knew how to do. And that's, that's real across the board. If those that are dealing with addiction, those are dealing with any, any type of like self abuse or even like in balance. I truly believe that in those moments we're doing the best we can, even if it doesn't look like a good decision to the common eye or the external eye. But one thing is creating that space where he knows he could come to a place without judgment and just be heard about processing whatever. Just is one thing. The second thing is also like you could let people know about what's available. It's up to them to make the choice about it. If not for. But one of these things of saying is, is having a conversation if you have a relationship with him is like, hey, so I heard, I went on this talk today and I heard these about these different resources or I heard I was researching some of these things that are popping up that sound beneficial. And I remember you saying you want to blank, blank, blank. Maybe something you might want to explore, but not from a place of like hey, you need this.

Right?

Because unfortunately even when dealing with like I've, I've worked with people, even some severe addiction, it's, it is their lifeline. And as much as I want them to choose it, it's never sustainable unless they choose it for themselves. All I could do is love them from where I'm at, listen to them and encourage the possibility for them. And what they choose to do from there is up to them. But my role as theirs, being part of their family and, or their, their, their community is loving them, supporting their where they're at and encouraging them to a possibility that they say that they want that I know it's like, you know, that we know is constructive. And that's a very tough place to be in because I know it's really loaded with love and care and what you would want to see for him and he's on his journey that gets to pick that he gets to pick it.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's what you, what you might say. I appreciate that.

And, and I also would see like what support there is out there for you. You know, if, if he is dealing with something severe of mental illness or depression or addiction or anything like that, what support are there for Families and. And, you know, people in connected. In communities of where you could go and process and hear from peers and learn what other people are doing with that are dealing with the same situations. It's part of your own growth as well, you know.

I hadn't thought of that. Thank you.

Yeah, Great.

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Ocean. And thank you so much, Raul. Man, I just feel so moved listening to these conversations and the way this unfolded. And thank you, everyone here, for your vulnerability and the questions. This was a really beautiful session. Is there anything that. Do you have any final words, anything that you'd like to leave people with or any resources or places to point people to before we. We close off here?

Yeah, there's no necessarily direct resources because I think it's subjective to who people are and what they're looking for, but it's out there. I know there are times where I feel like I'm the only one in my world dealing with this right now, and there's no one else holding it but me. There's so many others around that are holding the same thing. So. Asking for support, being vocal, participating in things like this, asking for other resources, and really network sharing on those of what we find. Even the call here, the amount of people that are here and the access to information or even support that's in this room alone is infinite. So lean in, speak up, get support that you need, and let's just accompany our journey together.

Beautiful, man. Well. Well, thank you. I appreciate you. I appreciate how you show up and just. Yeah. Thank you for. Thank you for doing what you do.

Yeah, brother, thank you so much for having me, man. I really. Yeah. You are a true gem. I appreciate you so much.

All right, beautiful. Well, have a great rest of your week, and we'll speak soon.

All right, all Take care, guys.

Thank you, everyone. Take care. See you on Friday.

You.