🧑‍🏫 Exploring Modern Addiction in a Distracted World w/ Alex Olshonsky

Good morning. Good afternoon, everyone.

Tony.

So we'll be starting in about two minutes time. If you'd like to share in the chat how you're experiencing life in this exact moment in three words. What is your experience of life in three words?

Okay.

All right, then. Let's get Alex in the spotlight. All right, good. Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon. I am really excited to invite my dear friends, Alex Olshansky to this. This live session. Alex is. Alex is many things. You're a writer, you're a somatic coach, you're entrepreneur, podcaster, founder of Natura Care. Bunch of different things. Welcome, Alex. It's great to have you here.

Thanks, Johnny. Good to be here. Good to be back with nervous system mastery.

It's great to have you back. Yeah. So I'm imagining kind of the flow for today's session. I was going to start by just kicking things off with some questions around, broadly around modern addiction, but also kind of varying, going down various tangents, kind of wherever we get. And then I was imagining kind of the last 40 minutes or so, we'll open up for questions from the students and we'll just do kind of live Q and A.

That sounds great. Cool.

All right. Amazing. So maybe to kind of set the scene, um, I was rereading some of your incredible essays. And by the way, I'm. I'm going to post a link into Alex's writing, because I think, honestly, Alex has some of the most articulate writing on the Internet, and I really just want to share it with people. Um, I was reading one of your essays about specifically modern addiction, and you wrote this line that was, what if I were to tell you that addiction does not just live inside you, but rather it exists between you and the world and that you think of addiction as this kind of, like, reciprocal narrowing? So can you kind of share a little bit about your frame on addiction and what is this kind of reciprocal narrowing versus opening that you think of?

Yeah, that's a great starting point. And first, I think it's worth just mentioning that, you know, when people hear the word addiction, and I've learned this, that, like, oftentimes some people will just tune out and be like, that's. That's not me. And. And so I think what I would just encourage is, like, thinking about any habits or behaviors that you do continuously that create harm in your life that you wish you could change, but you haven't. Like, that is simple enough to. To look at it from this perspective. And when. So when it comes to addiction, I think in modern Society with digital tools, with juul vape, wildly potent cannabis. Everywhere we look, white, you know, white cloth, there's now potent alcoholic seltzer water. We're. We're really just in a. We're swimming in a sea of consumerist addiction. And so rather than it being this thing where people. It's just the people who are huddled up on the side of the street or people who went through like, serious recovery journeys like I did, it actually is really something that impacts pretty much everyone these days. And it's a spectrum that we all find ourselves on. Some days. I think almost most people can probably relate to the feeling when you scroll Instagram or whatever your poison is for too long and you're like, what. What just happened there? Like that in the way I orient to it is. That's what I'm talking about here. And so that often happens when we're in a state of nervous system dysregulation. So in some of the. The core stuff. But to. To get to your. Your prompt around reciprocal narrowing, I. This concept is, I think, really interesting because what addiction can do is it basically progressively narrows the things that you're interested in. And so you will maybe get. It might be screens, it might be a substance, and then you become progressively interested in that thing. It helps you avoid your emotions. And then over time, you. That thing becomes the thing that you're mostly interested in, in that you're, You're. Your focus literally narrows. And so instead of seeing the whole world around you, you become reciprocally focused on getting this thing in. At extreme cases, it like you might do completely desperate behavior to keep pursuing that thing. And then at the same time, your agency to actually like, interact and to be a functioning person in the world diminishes as well. So it is this like reciprocal relationship in the sense that it's not just necessarily about you, but it's actually about how you. And how you interface with the world. And you could think of the move away from that as this like, reciprocal opening. And a lot of the things that Johnny's teaching you, like around being in your body, being okay with whatever states of nervous system are present, letting that come and pass like that is a reciprocal opening to what's here. And when that happens, you open yourself to the. To not just what you're feeling, but to the world. And you have more agency to act in that world. And some even describe like the. So if addiction is a reciprocal narrowing of the things that bring you focus and your ability to impact in the world, you could Think of enlightenment or awakening as like the complete opposite. It's like a progressive opening of the things that bring you pleasure or even the states of like dysregulation or the pain. You're like, ooh, I'm excited, I can face this. And there's even some pleasure in that.

Yeah, I'd love to hear you share a little bit about like your own journey and your own, let's say, relationship with your nervous system over the past decade. Like kind of paint a little bit of the picture of like where you were at with the, I think high functioning addict was kind of the frame, the frame that eased where you are and like how, yeah, how is your relationship to your own nervous system changed?

Yeah, well, it was high functioning to a point and then it was not functioning. And in a lot of ways that term, like I've written, I've written a little bit about this because that term itself can be somewhat, is like somewhat misleading because it's like what is actually functioning? What is it that we value as a society? But anyways, I was, I was working in Silicon Valley and I was living this really intense double life. I don't have to get into the, the full details here, but it involved a double life in the Tenderloin of San Francisco and very severe physical and emotional and financial toll on my life. And at the time like when I first started in recovery, I was a nervous wreck. And so I used to travel around the country, sometimes the world, even giving talks in tech. And I thought I was a really good public speaker just to give to, to give an example here. But then it's really kind of easy to, at least in my case, to, to do public speaking when you're on like a really nice cocktail of drugs that sort of like uppers and balance and downers to balance things out. And so then when I first removed all of those drugs and intoxicants, I had to like learn how to speak again. Like I'm, I'm not even talking about like even just like raising my hand in a meeting. And so my nervous system was that shot and I had been pushing down those feelings for nearly a decade. That it was, it was really raw and it was really intense and it took a lot of time to, to ultimately heal that and transform that pattern. And my path was like recovery into Buddhist based recovery into then into plant medicine and somatics and the healing arts. And that's when I really got interested in studying somatic psychology and the comey method and learning about nervous system and polyvagal theory and it, but it still took a lot of time. And where I'm at now is. Yeah, it's hard to even imagine where I used to be. And generally now I live my life is. And I want to say this without being. I don't know how it might sound, but. But generally I live in a state of calm and pe. And just enjoyment and things come and I still get angry and I can get angry and mad, but it just. I actually kind of get excited when that happens. And I, I couldn't imagine that that would be possible. And so in other words, all the stuff that Johnny's kind of cluing you into here really, really works. And especially if you follow it all the way to the end.

Beautiful. So I know that you also have a course that you call Life Not Wasted, which is a great name and a great title. And I think there's a fair amount of overlap between the things that you teach there and what we're doing here with Nervous Mastery. What are some of the frames or the practices as part of that that you think are almost like the most effective or the most essential pieces? And this maybe for people listening who don't necessarily consider themselves severe addicts, but have like you said in the beginning, certain tendencies, certain crutches, certain behaviors that are somewhat addictive.

Yeah, yeah. And I would encourage it like for most people, like, you know, think, think social media, think porn, think overeating, think maybe a couple glass of wine too much. Maybe for some people it's too much caffeine.

Right.

I saw some folks saying that they're overly caffeinated. And so. Yeah, what, so the, what's very. Where there's a lot of overlap between, between what I'm teaching there and nervous system mastery is that I really try to take a bottom. So most recovery frameworks are top down. And so they'll work on like confronting your character flaws or your beliefs and then from there, you know, kind of work their way down. Whereas this is like, let's start with the body. And generally I think that what's, what's most effective on that front is like, so first, when, whenever you're noticing that you're reaching for something that you. It's that part of that same pattern and habit, that thing that you've told yourself that you want to stop doing, but you find yourself doing again. The, the, the, the key is like getting curious as to like what are you actually feeling in that moment? Because there's always some emotion that is being avoided or put away or not Wanting to be dealt with always is a strong word, but generally like 90% of the time that's the case. And so the, the ultimate move is to be able to actually like pause, notice that, get curious about it and let it be there. But as many of us knows, it's not always so simple. And so what you actually need to do is at first, like really reroute some of that energy towards a constructive behavior. And that could be like taking a walk, it could be calling a friend or where some of the, I think where there's a lot of overlap, it actually might be doing like Bastrika breath or breath of Fire or whatever upregulating, you know, breaths you need to change your system. Or if you're actually in a more, you know, slow and you're in a more frozen state, or you actually, or vice versa, you actually might need to slow things down, right? And do, you know, a 4, 7, 8 breath to calm the system. And so the idea is that like, yeah, when, when you can be with the emotion, but when you can't like actually reroute that energy because it's energy that needs to be expressed. And then I think over time you develop a capacity to play with the energy and get really acquainted with it and to learn that that energy isn't actually something that you need to fear, but something that can actually be really harnessed productively. And you can like, when you actually can reroute that energy, it can become great life force and creative expression. Oftentimes in particularly with like social media, and this is especially true with social media and porn and even overeating. Like, there's often like some un. Under expressed artistic or even entrepreneurial or creative energy that needs to move there. And so. Yeah, I'll pause there.

Yeah, that's, that's great. And this. So this week, just for context, we're exploring emotions. Basically, it's, it's like the emotional serenity week.

Um.

Let'S kind of like use a specific or practical example. Like let's say you or someone is like the afternoon about to like reach to scroll on, let's say Instagram. Like, how would you kind of navigate yourself or someone else through like the play by play of like noticing the feeling? And then let's say, let's say there's the feeling. There is, let's say there's some fear around or avoidance of doing something that is hitting publish on a blog post. Let's say, let's just use that as an example. How would you navigate someone through that? Process. And yeah, kind of from being aware that, oh, there's an emotion here to some kind of completion where that energy gets kind of transmuted, as you were saying, into something creative.

Yeah, it's a great question. And I think actually there's like, there's important nuance there because, like, most of the time you don't even have that awareness to stop. Like, you're just, like, you're just scrolling. And so one of the things is when you want to first, like, own that, oh, this is a pattern that I have is that I scroll and for too long when I don't want to, and I have this blog post I've been putting off. And so first, like allowing that to just be captured in your psyche and then the next time you notice it and when you pause, you first want to just be like, oh, okay, I remember, I do this thing. What am I feeling? And that's when you'd want to bring your interception awareness into the body to really like scan and look. And the, the sort of more skilled move is actually to just compassionately be present with your. That energy. And like, you could play kind of put a hand on the belly and the heart and breathe and it will pass. That again, is sort of like one at one access point that's not often so available. And so then if that's not the case, then what you'd maybe want to do is, okay, I'm feeling something, I'm not sure what it is. I feel like I can't just breathe and be with it. And then at this point, what you'd want to do is actually remind yourself of the consequences. It's like, oh, when I scroll, I feel super crappy about myself. I don't hit publish on this thing. That I really care deeply is important to my soul and my spirit to produce. And I want to remind myself of that. And then you redirect the energy towards something else. Like, I'm going to take a breath, I'm going to take a walk, I'm going to do something that really. Or you could even just like open up your awareness to have the full periphery of the space in the room and what you have to figure out really what works for you. You know, some folks, it's like jumping jacks. Other people need to get outside and be in the sunlight. It might be one of the protocols from that that Johnny offers. Those are great. That's what they're here, they're here for and they work. But it does require some experimentation to get to. And you can. And it's like you can actually start to have fun with it where it doesn't become this thing, which is because the, the real challenge when it comes to this, these sort of behaviors is that we, we can, it can feel like, oh, why am I doing it? And then the self, the, the self hate really that can come on loop from that is so strong. And so it's just, it's just a matter of interrupting that, that process with compassionate awareness and then kind of getting excited and curious about what you might try today.

I love that one of the phrases that, you know, I hadn't heard before but you mentioned in a recent post was this idea of ping minimalism and being ruthless about digi Digital addiction. Encroachment. How do you think about that? And I guess kind of setting really firm boundaries with technology that is, you know, specifically designed to capture attention. Yeah.

And having worked in a lot of these companies, like yeah, we, we're, we're, we're sort of on the other the, the poor end of the stick here where these things are designed to hack our dopamine and to take over our limbic systems. And so many people here might be familiar with Cal Newport, who's a famous author, wrote a book, Digital Minimalism, about essentially being or having a real. Yeah. Seeing a lot of nods, having a mindful relationship with technology and minimizing your, your footprint, your digital footprint. Ping minimalism is sort of a new strain of this idea which I really like, which is, is, is going a step further in active, actively revoking all the pings on your attention. And so on a practical level this means like being in do not disturb mode as often as you can if your work allows it. It means, you know, having gated time in which you check social media. It means doing really like it could be unsubscribing from, from newsletters even though I'm a substack writer and having set times in which you, you only read, read those. And it's being extremely careful about all of the bids on your attention that are being thrown at you in this digital environment. And look, the Internet is in technology. There's a wonderful thing. That's what is bringing us all together here. So it's not a matter of like saying that, that it's bad, but it does require a lot of effort to actually live in a conscious, intentional way in our society. And again like I would just. What I really like invite you everyone to think about now is just like, and I can speak for myself, I've Gotten better. But there's still times where, you know, I'm just like, what was. I just, I was just scrolling Twitter and like, what was that? What just happened? And I also noticed that it does, it's something does. It just doesn't feel that good to me. Right. And I go through waves with it. But like, if you have, if that's the case for you and you notice that you're going on whatever tick tock or social or Instagram and you're, you're scrolling and it's creating feelings of comparison or judgment or shame or whatever it may be. Like that, that's like we sometimes forget, like that's all optional. You know, you don't have to engage with that. Even though it feels like it's so important and so, and so so much the water in which we're, we're swimming in. But it, but actually like, if that's the case, you don't necessarily need to like overcome those feelings. You could argue, just remove it from being in a force in your life and see how that feels. And I noticed that I feel really good when I do that. And for me it's also taking like a digital Sabbath one day a week and just completely shutting down. Everyone has different circumstances too though. You know, it's harder once I think you have families and as I'm learning to, to be completely off the phone. But. Yeah. Does that help?

Yeah, it's great. Do you do that on, on Saturdays, your Sabbath or Sunday?

I do mine on Saturdays. Yeah, I do that on Saturdays because one, it. Well, I'll try, I'll do it when I can. But Saturdays is also just the. I'm, I'm Jewish and that's the, the Sabbath. And although I'm not really practicing, I do like just carrying that idea of like, I just think there's something really beautiful about that tradition where it's like Saturdays are the days and you know, the, the very Orthodox Jews, like, they won't push buttons on the elevator and you know, they don't involve any electronics. And I think there's something really, there's some wisdom in that ancient technology where it's like, hey, one day a week. No, like, just don't do anything. And I find that especially true for myself today. And you know, I go through waves like where I'll do a three month stretch where I'm doing it every week and then life happens and I, I stopped doing it. But I noticed that when I do, there's like this really deep quality of presence and also I want to say like it just especially if you, I mean my orientation towards a lot of life is spiritual and you know, it doesn't need any religious association there. But like having that day to like just connect and be present and connect with like your heart, your spirit, like that feels really important today too in our high voltage digital climate.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. There's a few directions I want to go in. Yeah, like one thread, and this is maybe like a really big question is how do you think that your process of navigating addiction kind of opened you up to some of the more Buddhist practices and specifically meditation and how do you view meditation practice integrating with some of the more kind of body based emotional work, let's say.

Yeah, it's a great question. At first I was really taken with both yoga and meditation and what I was in early in my early recovery when I felt like I had reached a limit in 12 step programs, which is very common. And the 12 steps did, in that AA community did a lot for me. And but at a certain point I felt like I had reached a limit. And when I discovered Buddhist based recovery and also just the Buddhist psychology, I was just like, oh my God. There is a whole system for how to free yourself. And it's not just about addiction, it's about depression, anorexia, what, whatever your ailment is. Here is the diagnosis and the prescription with the four, the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. And so here's like a way out of the mess that you kind of create for us. We create for ourselves. And that just like it really like blew me away. I just was like, people have figured this out, I should probably pay attention to them. Like, I wonder if this is true. And so when it started for me was really more about just like just being able to be okay with myself and to be more in my body. And then I think over time you, you actually start to get more of those like tail end positive benefits that you, you might, you might hear about, which then becomes a whole new thing like as far as just a more stable sense of contentment. Right. And so meditation, I think to, to answer the other part of your question, I really think is, is vital to, to all of this stuff. I mean really what you're, what you're teaching here with nervous system mastery, it's a type of somatic meditation. Interoception is meditation. It's as simple as that. And I think we like, we can demystify meditation where it's like anytime that you're bringing Bringing awareness into the moment, into your body like that, that, that's it. And what eventually I, I learned was just particularly for Western, Western people. And I was working with a lot of, not just addicts, but a lot of former executives and in Silicon Valley founders and a lot of men like, who are just so head centric and, and just knowing for myself that like, where I used to just dwell up here, the, the real journey has been to come back down into the body. And that's when I started studying somatic psychology. And there now, you know, we, we've heard a lot about how the, the body keeps the score and just how much is stored within the soma. And I think that it almost is cliche at this point to talk about just the wisdom, the innate intelligence that our body contains. But you can think of it as like if you get a cut on your arm, you know, the cut will heal itself. Like the body truly knows how to heal itself and that body is what holds the psyche. And so when we can drop from our stories and our concepts and our, in our ideas about what this is and to actually just be in the presence of, of that intelligence, there is a life directive positive healing current that kind of can do its own thing. We can, if we can get out of the way. And so that's where I think the, the body is such a beautiful gateway to just radical self discovery.

Yeah, yeah. I, I've been going down a rabbit hole of Dr. Michael Levin recently. I don't know if anyone has come across his work, but I think he's one of the most interesting neuroscientists alive today. And he has shown through a series of experiments that our cells basically have agency that what we think of as like our own intelligence is actually more like the collective intelligence of like millions and millions and millions of individually agentic cells. And like he says that, you know, there is something that it is like to be a lung or to be a heart. Like, it's, it's wild. And the deeper that I go down the path of somatics, it really is as you say, a process of like, how do I get out of the way? Like, how do I kind of tune into what's here or maybe kind of notice a specific part and then listen, listen and kind of approach with curiosity. The question that I have in the, I think this is like a, you know, a question that's very alive in my life as well, is kind of like, like, what is the path to the phrase that I like is like secure attachment with reality. We've all heard of attachment theory in, in relationships. And I like this idea of. And I think in some ways the end path of nervous system mastery is completely secure attachment with reality and trust in life so that all of our parts are completely integrated and part of this kind of like almost like inner harmony. I think kind of the idea of like an internal symphony all being in the same key is actually really quite profound. So I suppose my question is, and this maybe ties back to the reciprocal narrowing versus opening that we started this conversation with, what to you is the very practical path of gradually, step by step, creating reciprocal openings in one's experience as opposed to narrowings. And presumably as a byproduct of that, there will be fewer addictive tendencies as well.

Right, Right, Totally. And it's, it's amazing. It's amazing how a lot of that, like the more complete you feel, the less you'll need to reach for, for the things that you once did. It's, it's really wild how some of those things will just work themselves out. It's why a lot of times you'll hear people on. Not just a recovery path, but who are on spiritual paths. Like eventually just. They stop drinking because they're just not as interested in it. Not always the case. You still can have it, but it's very common. And so, yeah, this idea of secure attachment with, with life or reality, you know, you. Some have called that, you know, you could call that many different things. I like the, the term fundamental well being, which is just like when you kind of look deep within or are you okay? And that there's. It's. It can be, I think, a beautiful road to get there. One though that's not quite as complicated and mysterious than most people realize. And so I think what probably is going to help the most though, is building some sort of practice that you have in structured time that you then can take off the, the mat, so to speak, and weave into your everyday life. And so that's. And I think that for me is when things really started to shift was when like at first, like you'll be doing your, your nervous system exercises or your meditation or your yoga. And it's like during your 30 minutes or an hour or 20 minutes when you're doing that. But then eventually when you. What I think what really is the path to developing this, the secure attachment with reality is bringing this into as much as possible every moment of your waking existence. And there's a, there's like a fine balance here too of like turning this into Something that can be like curious and fun rather than like I've got to be mindful and present every moment of the day because you can, I've been there like where I was like, I gotta be aware, I gotta be aware. And like you're just kind of further clenching down and contracting and. But, but I think the two things that are probably the most important are curiosity and that intention for awareness and because if you can be curious about what it is that you're experiencing and like really like bring a subtle sense of curiosity that almost is like, it's like wonderment. Like one of my teachers calls it, like raising the wonderment. Like, you know, how like a puppy might be like, like what's that? Like, you know, like it's like and it's. Or like a child, like, you know, I have a 10 month old and he'll just is like, like look at that fan. You know, it's like, oh, whoa. It's, it's, it's something as subtle, as simple as that, but like bringing that as much as possible. It's like, oh, I'm not doing that blog post or oh, I'm having to give a talk. Like there's some nerves here. But like what's that actually about? Can I drop the story of what it used to be that oh, I'm getting nervous, this is bad. Why do I still get nervous when I talk? This is a problem. I thought I should be better, you know, then the story gets going from there. But if you can drop the story and actually just be in that wonderment and like the body is such a good way to do that throughout your day. And the other thing I like when I say body, you know, we tend to think of our body as being enclosed into this, this physical form. But, but really the body is this, this whole thing. And I think just the simplest like experiential way to get at this is just to notice. Like if you, if you let awareness get really wide right now, taking in the full periphery and you like bring your hands up over your head to see the sides of your head here and then slowly pull them back to where they disappear and play with that spot where you can looking straight ahead, notice where they sort of just slip back into this like empty space. See if you get a sense of that and then you can just bring them back and drop them down. Like you'll see that the body actually not isn't quite contained to where we think it might be. It actually feels like when I do it, like it's Just this really like beautiful, luminous, vibrant space. And so one, one way I think to also to, to, to get this like secure attachment is to really understand that like what you're experiencing and what's happening in the world are not separate. And you can actually just like notice that by opening up your, your awareness.

Yeah, beautiful. I remember you talked about open eyed meditation practice. I guess that's like a version of what you just described. Like, are there any other kind of open eyed meditation practices that you could give to people as experiments to try?

Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's great. Yeah, that and I really, and I think that open eyed meditation is vastly underrated in particularly for this reason is because like you, we live, we live lives in the world. Most of us here I assume are not monastics or don't have time, you know, are also working and contributing in some way. And to do that when, so when you, when you meditate with your eyes open, it might take a little bit of time to get used to it, but it actually you can find, will really stabilize the mind a lot faster. And so when you do this like just very simply, you can keep soft eyes looking ahead and try to just notice that there's a periphery and it's one single eye rather than two eyes. You can notice that there's just one single eye that you're looking out of and you can notice just for a moment just allow attention to notice that there's some edge to that single eye but you can't quite find it. And see for a moment. If you can just allow attention to notice that full spectrum edgeless view. And then while you do that, just then notice. Did that shift anything? Did that change anything as you did that? Like, I know for me it like kind of slows things down and things actually get a little bit more spacious. Like you might even notice that things get spacey. And sometimes spacey gets a bad rap as a word. I mean you don't want to be like dissociating but sometimes being spacey is actually kind of like kind of, kind of good in a way if you can actually be aware while you're doing that. And so there's a bunch of other like tricks that you can, you can practice with this. But I think the, the another. Okay, let's do it. We'll do another one here where. So if you're looking straight ahead, notice where you're looking from. And then take your, your just maybe your index finger to your thumb and just like pinch really hard like as if almost like you're creating pain and notice that where you're looking from is different from where you're feeling that sensation. And then you can also notice that there's also. I can't find any separation between that sensation and where I'm looking from if I don't think of, go into story or ideas. So it's little things like that that really just orient to the present moment and to this bigger body which is, which has been a big GM that I've been on lately.

Really, really cool. Really cool. Thank you for sharing.

Did you get anything there, Johnny? Did you notice anything?

Yeah, I noticed sometimes my, my vision goes like slightly blurry and it's almost like. And I also feel a sense of like very expansive spaciousness and sometimes like, like tingling kind of the early signs of like, of like pity and jhana sometimes.

Yeah.

It'S really fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I started doing it. This is such a random aside, but Tesla has like self driving mode and I've just been like turning on self driving mode and doing like a similar kind of practice while I'm being driven around. It's almost interesting applying that idea of self driving to my own life and like how like even right now I'm like self driving to some degree. And there's a part, there's a way that I can like witness the things that I'm saying without necessarily thinking too hard about what it is that I'm saying and almost applying that like self driving lens to other areas of my life and like witnessing myself doing those things.

Totally. I love that. Right. And that's sort of the wonderment where it's like, whoa, I don't know what Johnny's gonna say. I don't even know what I'm gonna say. And you can, you can kind of like take that step back where. Oh, okay, these words are just coming out from this space.

Yeah, exactly. So maybe the last theme or question I wanted to touch on was this idea of developing traits versus chasing states. And you know, this is something that I can certainly relate to in my journey. I think in the beginning especially I was very much pretty obsessed with like chasing various forms of highs or intense experiences or cathartic breathwork, all that types of stuff. And I think in my, in my experience there is a role and a place for that as like opening experiences. But yeah, I'm curious, what is your lens on this? And specifically what do you think are the key components that create the altered traits beyond just kind of ecstatic or like one off experiences?

Totally. And I also was very similar where. And I think there's actually use in that for people who had very severe addictions like myself learning to so to speak, get high on your own supply on your own body like just using your breath or doing. I used to be really into Kundalini which has been a very intense form of yoga Kriya which can take you to profound places. I actually think there's a really important role for, for someone if like you're so used to only getting those altered states through drugs or even I mean and I, I co founded a psychedelic non profit so I'm a major advocate for psychedelics. Was a big part of my journey. But there's some you and actually like learning how to do this endogenously within your, in your own system. And and yet the way just again that sort of our culture constructs, this constructs itself is to have people perpetually chasing these experiences without in my opinion properly integrating and getting the long term value. And this is like after you know, working in. And I have so much love and respect for all these different things. So it's not to say that they're, they're wrong or bad but just having been in this space for some time now like I. What I see over and over again is people yet doing the breath work retreat, doing the meditation retreat, doing the psychedelic retreat and it not actually really producing the long term change that would allow you to stop doing that for some time and to be okay. And so what I think is most important in that pursuit is one to recognize that what's happening and there's usually a really strong sense of seeking within that and within that seeking is like a desire for happiness or fulfillment, fulfillment or secure attachment. And like oftentimes it's really pointing at like our deep psychological wounds. Like for myself it was having to you know, prove my worth through doing an achievement for any other enneagram threes out there, you know that can, who can relate to that. Yeah yeah. And so there was so much doing and doing and I saw how that, that same like really deep personality structure.

Had.

Been co opted by you know, the healing journey and the spiritual journey. And so it's one just recognizing that that's happening and that's okay. This is like a, it's a normal phase and yet and then I think this is when the. Some of the practices that you're doing that we're doing in nervous system mastery, some of the practices that we just talked about with open eyed meditation, bringing this more into your life that's really where the rubber starts to meet the road. And it's not like on retreat. It's actually when you get triggered in the workplace, when you get triggered by your partner, by your kid, whatever it is like that, that's the moment to practice. That's the moment where in which, like, we really get to see how we're doing. And it's not about not getting triggered either, but it's, it's, it's a, it's about bringing this into life. And so for me, like, what that, what on a practical level, what that looks like is yet date like carving out like dedicated time for the nervous system practices and meditation each day or yoga, whatever it is for you. But I would encourage people, particularly those who are like, really serious about this, to, you know, try to carve like an hour a day for whatever practice it is for you to tend to yourself and to your nervous system and to this, to these practices in general. And then, you know, I'm, I'm biased, but I think working with a really good somatic practitioner or somatic therapist or someone who can, who can help you understand what you're actually holding in your body can unlock a lot pretty quickly and is a great compliment to all the stuff that we're, we're doing and, and Johnny's teaching you here.

I 100% agree. Well, that feels like a great note to kind of begin to open up questions from the group. So if you guys would like to raise your virtual hands and we'll just kind of go, go one by one, starting with Yanis.

Hello.

Thanks for always going first. Yanis.

Yeah, yeah, I, I'm so engaged in the nervous system stuff. So what an interesting conversation. Thank you so much. I totally agree about the somatic stuff. Like somatic experiencing has changed my life. And so a question that I have that I arose is that I do notice myself when I, when I feel the edge and get addicted. And so what I've traced it like to mostly maybe being grief or anger or loneliness. But the fact that you said about the. Something creative wanting to come out, that's, that's my question. Like the creative will come out if I read out the energy or it might be creative energy that hasn't been expressed that leads to the addiction. Because I've noticed lately that I'm a highly creative person, that when I don't create this, there's a tension inside of me. It's like something that needs to come out. So could that also lead to addictive impulses?

Yes. So, yeah, a Couple. Well, I want to just mention a couple things in. In that one is that the. The creative bit is. It's not. It's not a hard rule, but it sounds like in your case, it. This might be what's happening. But I'm curious, you mentioned that you have. You're noticing that there's sometimes grief or sadness is what you're experiencing when you have that. That impulse to reach. Is that. Is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So if you're open to sharing more, you know, I'd be curious as to. Yeah. If you could help us understand what that process looks like a little bit. Like you're reaching for the thing, then you pause and you notice that there's some sadness there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So totally. So actually today I came home from a funeral and I have this rule, like, when I go home, I need to take 10 minutes before I check my phone. Like, there is a repose. And so I sat and I started doing mindful meditation. And I saw that I was out of capacity. And at five minutes, I felt the impulse overwhelming and I just go and check my phone.

I see. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry for your loss. First of all, for. Yeah, for the funeral. Um, the fact that you're doing. Building out this practice before you check your phone is. Is excellent already. And so you were feeling in that moment where it's like, oh, no, I can't wait anymore. I have to check.

Right.

Can you say more about the energetic quality of what that was like?

Yeah, it felt. It felt like, I don't know, despair or. I just need to find relief. Like, I just need relief. And it's. It's okay. And that is. There is the rationalization. That's okay. It's just taking the phone. It's not a serious addiction, etc. Etc.

Right.

Right.

So this wave of despair came on. And it's understandable that in that moment it was like, oh, I know something that can actually keep me safe from this. And so this is where we can be, like, really compassionate to what happened there. And I would invite that for you. It's just like, oh, yeah. Like, that was. And I just came from a funeral, I had a wave of despair. And like, there was an intelligence actually at work. And there's always intelligence in these strategies. And so I think the first step would be to acknowledge that. And then the other piece is like, next time, like, what you could try. Throttling is just like, oh, can I. Instead I'm reaching. Can I take in 10% of this to spare and just, just going slowly and see how that goes. Right. Because it might actually there's, again, there's, there, there can be wisdom in what your body's doing in that process. And then we might not want to bypass that and just get totally overwhelmed. And so that would be one actionable thing is like, next time, okay, just 10%. Can I feel 10 of this despair or this fear? Then the other thing that you mentioned around the, the creative expression is like. And yeah, I, I don't, you know, I don't know much like we, we want to like, turn this into sort of like a, like, practical coaching, but it would help to hear more just about like, what's happening there. Because it's hard, hard to say. But oftentimes that can, that can be the case for highly creative people is that when they're not producing the, the work that they want, that's when addiction really comes up. And they're, they're, they're, they come hand in hand with highly creative folks. As we all know, some of the greatest authors, artists and authors are quite the, you know, habit. Yeah, yeah.

You know, I've come like, with a, with a somatic experiencing and the more trauma I released, the more that part of me was allowed to be there. And like, creativity flowed like an energy that at some points it went. It was annoying because I couldn't stop it. And it was again and again. And I need to create, and I need to create. And I find myself that when I, When I reach my upper limit of my creativity, like, I don't feel safe to create anymore because I have the limiting beliefs firing up. I stop creating. And there is this. I'm feeling clumsy. I can't sleep very well. And then I see that when, when I work through that resistance and the fear of creating more, my life flows more smoothly. And again, because it's a multifactorial thing and it's a system of things. That's the intuitive guess that I'm taking.

Yeah. How do you feel now in your body after naming that?

Like, there's an imposter, an imposter element there. Like, sure, I want it to be this way. I'm, I'm. Maybe it's that way. And then I don't want to boast about it, but it's. Yeah, it's many parts firing up.

Sure, sure. There's a part that's like, oh, I'm on screen and how am I presenting? And. Yeah, right. Well. And it sounds like you have a very sophisticated awareness of the multifactor all parts at work here. Yeah. Yeah. So when it comes to creating, I think that for. It sounds like for you really tending to that part of your practice and having some ritual around it would be quite. Quite useful given that you notice how. How involved it is in everything that's coming up for you. And so. Yeah, I don't know how. I think there's probably more that we could explore here, but for now I would encourage just that 10% more and for you to keep. Just. Keep just checking in with what. What needs to be expressed when you notice there's a reach outside of the grief. But like, because when despair is coming, that's just meant to be felt. But in other moments there can be a very. It's very clear that some. Something else needs to be expressed from you.

So I'm. What I'm getting from this is like. Like trying to think small that when the overwhelm comes is just what if I can feel it only 10%. And the other thing about the creative outlet, it's because it might be a source of the impulse just to have a structure in my life so that I can express that energy and not keep it stuck inside so that it regulates anything.

That's. That's a beautiful summation. Yeah. Ensure that you're tending to your. Your creative expression and whatever. Whatever art that is for you and to. Yeah. Because. But what you're describing first, primarily. And I'm glad that we clarified it, like when. When there's despair, grief or sadness, like, that's different. That's a different signature than like, just. You wouldn't want to. I wouldn't ever tell you, oh, just go create something like that's actually meant to be. I mean, you can of course create from that sort of feeling, but I feel my sense is actually that's more meant to be felt within you and to be given space to be felt without being turned into a problem.

Yeah. To be honest, like, creative expression helps me be with it in a better way. So they are combined. Like it's really somatic because it's about drawing music, so.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you. Hi, guy.

Hey. Thank you. Sharing your wisdom so far. My question is, I'm curious about the fact that you've worked like in Silicon Valley and then dealt with your own journey of addiction and. Yeah. Your interest also in the dopamine override of our technology. And I guess I'm just curious when you look forward into the coming months and years of what. What is happening with technology and how it's getting better at doing whatever it wants to do. How do you view that in terms of like our own agency to resist the dopamine hijack and let me know if that wasn't clear as a question.

No, it was very clear. Yeah. Like given that technology is getting so much better and now we have AI and that's going to wildly change so much. Right? Yeah. How do we hold our relationship with it? And for me, I really do appreciate the Buddhist precept around. Right. Relationship and using. And so when I think about. And this is tied into the ping minimalism, like I think that there's ways in which technology can be very beneficial for us, particularly with AI. I'm using it actually now to do things for my taxes that I never knew I could save time around. I'm also using it in my coaching practice, my somatic therapy practice, which I never thought that I would do, where I'm taking transcripts and having it plugged into a portal where it can actually give me insights on where I could have showed up better for that client. I'm also using it for dream analysis in ways that like I never. I, you know, I, I'm, as probably some of you all can tell, I'm. I tend to be really cautious with, with tech and how we engage in it, especially when it comes to the soul. But I found it to be actually quite remarkable at what it can do. And I think that the future will look something like embracing the ways, embracing technology that buttresses our humanity and what's unique to us and then ruthfully, ruthlessly putting it away for all the areas in which it's really non additive and not adding value. And that's where the ping minimalism comes in. And for me that's where it's like I'm gonna either privatize or delete my Instagram because I'm really just on there for habit. I don't check it that much. It's not doing really anything for me anymore. It's, it's being ruthless about social media, the bids on my attention and, and I think that. So I see it as a both and rather than two, two things that are mutually exclusive where like I'm surprised to admit that I've found AI to be really useful and I'm actually like leaning even harder into being somewhat unreachable. Even though a lot of like my work is writing and podcasting and speaking and, and using the Internet, I've just, I feel like there's also somewhat of a vibe shift happening Which I've been sort of praying for where people are like, this can't continue. Like you, I think that's what you're kind of pointing to, right guy, is like this, this can't continue. And, and so, yeah, I think people in, in this community are going to be part of that change, you know, like, where it's like, okay, how can we take the best from tech to come together and then also use it to just bring us more into our humanity, into our creative expressions.

Okay, great. Yeah, thank you for that. And yeah, I'm with you on the dream analysis.

Have you been using it for that too?

Yeah, I have used it for that. Yeah. Mind blowing.

Yeah, it is. And you know, I, I feel like, like this is another good example where for dream analysis it can be really easy to bypass what some might consider to be a very organic sensory discovery process and to over rel Claude or chat GPT, which is going to be a lot more intellectual. And yet at least now in my life, just being able to have a place where I put this in and get quick Jungian analysis is the primary lens that I'm interested in. I find it to be really, really useful. And so it's, I see it as a both and where it's like you got to be careful not to bypass the, the meaning making that you would do on your own if you didn't have this. Where it's like you would think about what did that bear who visited me in my dream mean for, you know, weeks and like meditate on it. And then something would emerge organically when you're, you know, out in nature. Whereas, you know, I can plug that into Claude and it will tell me that this is. Usually represents this element of the unconscious, which is. Yeah. And so I, it's, it's both. I see it also as a both and.

Got it. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you, guy. Good question. I. Is it Leela?

Yeah, yeah, Very good.

Yeah.

I, My question's about questioning like my addiction or like a story I'm telling myself about it. I love smoking weed, having edibles. Like, I feel like I have a very positive relationship with marijuana and I don't necessarily feel like I have a dependency on it, but there's maybe times when I feel like I'm using it more often and then I'm feeling like guilty about it or feeling like, oh, you know, I feel like societally this is where it becomes like I'm using it too much. I don't drink at all. Like, I feel, feel like if I Want to go out and be with people. I don't have an issue being sober, but I feel like I can use weed to be more creative to like enjoy like a hike on a deeper level. Dance like I can. You know, there's just like so many menu options for like this edible that's like good for work, this one that's like great for a flight. Like it seems to be able to do all these things for me and like make experiences more enjoyable. And I feel like I don't necessarily use it when I'm feeling down or depressed or like I need it to get out of a state. I just kind of want it to like boost a state.

Sure.

But because I think there's like a narrative of it's not necessarily like it's still a substance and it's still something I can use to maybe enhance, avoid or whatever my emotions, like my relationship with it. Sometimes like I overthink it and then I like have feelings about how I should feel about it.

Sure.

So I'm wondering like.

Yeah. What's.

If there's like a perspective that's like, is the goal to like never need it or want it? Like I, if I don't have an abusive relationship with it, is it okay? Like do I just need to pay attention to when I am using it more? That kind of thing?

It's a great question. I really appreciate it. And can I ask if you're okay sharing how, how often you're, you're using it on a weekly basis?

Maybe like sometimes four to five, sometimes once or twice a week.

Huh. So it varies. Yeah. And you were describing a little bit of this rumination around, okay, what should I be doing this and is that the main negative consequence that you experience from it is sort of a story that I shouldn't be doing this and a self inflicted sort of loop around that.

Yeah. And once I may be like, am doing it four to five times a week or I've done it several days in a row or like maybe like when I feel like I'm starting to use it, like to disconnect after work and to like relax like as to like then I'm like, oh, I should try to not have it. I should try to like take a bath instead. But then like I'll try to do some of these other things once I feel like I'm using it, it's just like, it's not the same.

Yeah. Well, I just want to say I can't tell you how much I relate. You know, I'm a Former biggest pothead in the world, you know, years ago. And you're bringing up Leela something important, which is sort of the, the, you know, I mentioned how, you know, oftentimes we're, it feels like we're avoiding something when we're using, but this can be the, the, the other end of it where it's like, oh, actually no, this is just like totally enriching my life and it's giving me this great boost. And it might be that you have a non problematic relationship with it. Like, I'm like very agnostic when it comes to these things. And so that's really more up to you. But the fact that you're asking the question to me and having some experience in this tells me that there's likely some, some sort of questioning that's happening around it. And what I'd be curious about is how, how might you feel like you could just get that, that boost without needing cannabis. Right? And like, is that possible or is that what comes up when I even mentioned that? Is that scary or is that like, why would I do that when I have something that works? I'm curious what you notice in your body.

Feel like I'm looking for a shortcut when I wanna like, get high. Like, I could have had experiences where like, you know, I'm in nature and I had like getting high on my own supply, but it takes like a scenery change or, and it takes like time and it, you know, requires other things and it's, it's not as social. Like, I have to like, maybe be with myself more and like, maybe do some breathing exercises that are not just like the same as like just being out or like cooking dinner with my boyfriend and being like, yeah, I'm here, I'm. I'm in this, this headspace, you know, it's like, takes more work.

Yeah, it takes more work, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard. It's harder. Yeah. And you mentioned looking for a shortcut. That one's still kind of lingering over here. Yeah, yeah. And just checking in now, what you're noticing in your body.

Fidgety, like noticing like my heart is like feeling more activated.

Huh? Yeah.

I think that like, you know, I have. My brother, my older brother has had periods in his life where he smoked a lot of weed. And he's like, told me he's like, once you start feeling bad about it, you're like, you want. If you're gonna smell, like, don't feel bad about it. Like, if you're going to like smoke, you're like, oh, no, I shouldn't have done this. Now you're high. Like, that's not worth it. Just either do it or don't. And so I want to have this non guilty relationship with it. So I want to be like super aware. Like, okay, I've made this choice. I want to get high. I'm going to get high. I am currently high. This is a choice I made happy with it. But it's not always like sometimes when it gets a little stickier and I feel like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. But like, so rarely does that happen that I. I don't know. Yeah. I think that there's just some societal narratives with it and most of my friends don't smoke or use marijuana as much as I do. They would prefer to drink, but I don't like drinking.

You don't like drinking?

Yeah, it doesn't. I don't feel good, so I don't. It's not like, it's not a substance. I'm interested in weed. I feel great.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just sensing there's some emotion there too, as you say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just welcoming that if it feels okay and just, you know, I know it just. What we. We're on screen here. Right. So this might not be the place. So just, you know, we can, we can stay with this for a little bit longer if that feels okay for. Or. Yeah. Just check in with yourself. Yeah, we're.

Yeah.

What was that?

Sadness.

Yeah, yeah.

Curiosity. Wondering like. Okay, yeah. If I. But I felt intrigued enough to ask this question in the setting and like come to this call. Like there's something there that I'm trying to figure out.

Yeah.

So it feels heavier than I thought it would.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's. We can just, we go really slowly here with this and just that sadness and that heaviness and yeah. Maybe just like feel. Are you. If you're sitting, you're sitting in a chair, it looks like, and just feeling your back, body supported in the chair. Making contact. Yeah. Nice feeling your, your, your sit bones and your feet. Yeah. You can just go inward for a moment and just. I'll just repeat back to you what you just shared here. Was that. Yeah. I came here to this call. Addiction was probably somewhere in the title and there's some heavy.

I think it's scary because the addiction has that stigma and I've lost people too. Addiction or parallel paths of addiction or lost, you know, friends either like in a. They're still alive since or they're not. And so the association of being like, okay, marijuana is a pretty harmless drug, but there's the stigma tied to it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Right. And there's, like, there's this story. Yeah. The stigma and what, you know, friends do, what your brother said, and also then just your reality of what's here. And so. Yeah. I wish we had more time here, Leela.

Thank you.

Yeah. And so. And just. I just would, like, invite like that. So the last things I'll say is just to be really, like, gentle with yourself and to be curious about that. That. That sadness that's here, and that is, there's nothing wrong. And actually, this might be the beginning of a change process. Like, that's what I sense in you. And for my. In my case, that's how I started with all the things was like, this is just to make me better. But eventually, then the consequences came. And so you can also trust that maybe it's okay for now, but it. The. The. It will shift eventually to. To when, you know, you need to make a change where it's like, oh, this isn't just making. Giving me a boost. Like, there's some. Yeah. Feeling here. So thank you so much for your vulnerability. I would love for everyone to offer Leela some props because that was. Yeah. Took a lot of courage. Yeah.

Weddings.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Ocean, good to see you again.

Hello.

Hi.

Hi.

My question's kind of related to Leela's, but slightly different nuance and apologies. I'm very, very cold, so I'm, like, shaking a lot.

Where are you? Is it cold where you are?

Yeah. I've just moved into a new house, and I've not figured out the heating yet, so I'm like, I thought I figured it out, and now I'm like, nope, it's definitely not working. They're, like, wrapped up here. What is my question? So I think I'm in a bit of a bind with chocolate and a behavior around chocolate. I've previously identified that there was a strong emotional component that was driving my behavior around seeking and eating very specific types of chocolate. Like, I've created this narrative for myself that, like, oh, it's not so bad because it's, like, organic chocolate. It's, like, sourced well, and it's delicious. But there's, like, the story on top of that, which is one of shame and guilt and, like, I shouldn't be doing it, which has then created a hiding behavior around it. And it specifically came up a few years ago in my relationship with my Husband, where he noticed his behavior and identified it. And we realized there was this emotional piece that was driving the behavior. And I feel like I've done a lot of the work in discovering and feeling and being with what the emotion is underneath that. But now it feels like it's this weird sticky behavior that's now more tied up with the, like, oh, I need to now hide this. And that's where the kind of like, crunchy part is. And so I think my question is around, like, how to work with the shame of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that and appreciate your. Your honesty there. What was. You said you. You got clear on some of the emotion that was there. What emotion?

There's a lot. And I, again, I'd like. I feel like I'm not fully kind.

Of.

Tapped into the source of it, but it. It feels quite existential, and it feels that there's a lot of, like, I traced it back to some very specific things in childhood and there being this kind of ritual and safety around certain eating behaviors.

Yeah, yeah. And so eating, it sounds like, is one that cuts pretty deep for you, huh? Yeah, yeah. And goes way back and maybe even has been a. Yeah. Complicated relationship to food. Is that. Is that safe to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just sense there. The two. There's just a lot there. And that's. That's beautiful and wonderful and. And like, especially, like, acknowledging too, that just like in probably what I imagine. I don't want to take too many liberties in interpreting your journey, but. Right. Like, just moving now to having a little bit of, like, secretive chocolate is probably, you know, that's as far as things go. It's not as. Not the worst situation to be in. And so that I feel like you've probably done a lot of work to even get to that point. And so I want to first commend that the secret and the shame. What are you protecting?

It's like if people could see.

That.

That'S somehow not safe and, like, I wouldn't then be able to. There's like an element of, like, not being able to manage it on my own. It's like if it feels like, quite vulnerable, but I can't quite place, like, what the thing that is vulnerable is.

Yeah. But something about safety. Huh?

Yeah.

Right. Right.

Yeah. That feels confusing.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And you.

You've mentioned that you've been open with your partner around this in the past various stages. Various stages. Yeah. But now it's. It's a. There's a little bit of the. The Hiding. And I think a lot of people can relate to this too, like in various form, like various degrees. And so, yeah, again, this was. This is one where it's like we could like, really immerse into your body in the moment. But I think for now, like, what my gentle invitation would be is to. To self out yourself each time you do it. Like, self.

Self out.

Yeah. Like, I'm gonna eat some chocolate right now and I want you to know, you know, to. And try that.

Right?

Yeah. Yeah, I see. It's just like, whoa. No, no. I know. But this is when it comes to the. This is where this ha. The healing. And particularly when. If you use the recovery. What we learn from recovery is that it happens in relationship oftentimes. And so you. And so having someone that you can tell and just. Or it doesn't have to be before, it could be after. Just like, hey, I just want you to know that I have had some chocolates and I'm ashamed. But that would be. My invitation for you on that ocean is to just to. To. To. It's scary, but to practice. And then you'll probably find it's actually not as big a deal. And I had to have a lot of those conversations over the years, which I thought were going to be like relationship ending and, you know, for big stuff that in my case. And I find that people really. That. That it's. I've always been proven wrong in that regard.

Yeah. That feels really edgy.

Yeah.

And I'm like, okay, I should probably.

Yeah. That's how you know. Right. If it's scary, if it scares the. Out of you and is also intentional and it's healthy, you know, not jumping off a building or something, you should probably do it. Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

Yeah, Maybe we'll keep that one simple for now. Thank you so much, Ocean, for. Yeah. Sharing that.

Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, I see. Divya.

Hello.

Hi.

Hi.

I had a question regarding. So at my workplace, I've noticed that I generally have a lot more stress there and I have storylines going. So whenever I try to do any of the. The somatic works when I'm there, the biggest story I have is, oh, the. There's no point because there's going to be another stress that's coming. And it's not even like a big stress because I enjoy the people I work with. It's just the stuff that happens throughout the work. What I notice is that I start scrolling or eating the chocolates and the snacks that's available there, but I can't Seem to. Even though knowing that, hey, let me try this exercise, I can't seem to get out of that loop of using scrolling or eating the snacks that's available there to actually doing the work. It's like, I know I have that pause moment. I see that I can either choose to eat the chocolate or the snacks there or try the exercise. But the biggest storyline that comes is there's no point. It's like a loop of addiction that I can't seem to get.

Sure. There's no point because. Let's just play that out for a moment. There's no. There's no point in stopping because it's gonna just come a moment later or what. What's the.

Yeah, it's. It's. It's. Oh, hey, this is just the beginning of the work. And I feel all this pressure and fogginess and I'm like. And then the storyline of. What's. What's the storyline? Most of it is what's the point of trying? Or no, there is a point of trying, but it's. It's just gonna happen again. And it's just the beginning of work. It's not even like. And I shouldn't be feeling like this. It's not so bad to work here. You know, it's just like a constant loop.

Right, Right. And it just. It sounds like that, yeah, the. The parts are really coming at the self, like, yeah, you shouldn't be feeling like this. This is a great place to work. I'm comfortable. Like, why is so what. It sounds like there is a mixture of. Of two things could be helpful is one is to start increasing the length of pause, Even if it's 15, 30 seconds and starting there and building that muscle, showing that like, oh, okay, I can actually go further. And then the other is when. When the stories are running and it sounds like you're like, they.

They.

That story is hijacked so quickly that it's like, impossible to sort of act like that is when coming back into the body and doing something tactile would probably benefit you a lot. And so in those moments. Right. Because if you have to. Do you have to get up from your desk to go get the snacks?

Well, it's right there. It's right there.

But you have to get up.

Up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You do have to get up. Right. And so this is like the next time to take instead, like, you literally just consciously take a walk around the. Your floor.

Oh, I have tried that.

I have tried that. Yeah.

One in my workplace that walks back and forth. So people watch me walk back and forth where I'm working. And then I see the. Even though the drawers close, I'm like, okay, there's a chocolate there and I can eat it.

Yeah. And so that's perfectly okay. And I'm glad that you're trying different things here. This is. And I think here it's like a matter of just continuing to, like, very consciously, and you might need to do something that's a little bit more physically engaging. Like, it might actually be something like. Like. Like you might have to, like, step outside and to move some breath or to move some energy. But it sounds like, yeah, there's always different degrees of where sort of people are coming at this. But it sounds like here, like, it might benefit you to actually, like, try to more actively reroute this energy. And then eventually you'll actually have more time to just. To take the pauses and to do just the feeling and being with it. But for now, you know, I. I might actually steer you towards taking more potent interventions. And that could take many different forms of, like, going somewhere where you can do a couple of these breathing exercises or just, like, shifting the scene up.

And with the storyline. Because I've tried that, too. I've taken a walk. Didn't headspace, you know, like five minutes doing the breathing exercises and stuff like that. I think what gets me the most is the constant loop of the storyline of afterwards. It's like, okay, you did this, you did this, and you did this. And I feel that fogginess eventually. And you're like, okay, I'm going to scroll or do something else. So do I just be okay with that? Like, okay, I did this. It's okay to scroll or, you know, eat chocolate.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think the. The more. Yeah, the. The less you can resist the storylines, the better.

Right.

And so, because part of the problem is that the. The. Because the thoughts are happening and they're building upon each other, but it's really the identification with them which is creating the. The problem. And so if you can, the best you can, this is where coming into the body or something bigger than the thoughts is very useful, because that's like the ultimate antidote because the thoughts are just happening in here, in this space, and they can feel. So like if you zoom out, there's. There's more happening. Right. There's always more going on than what's happening in the thoughts. And so still my advocate. I would advocate for you to come back into what's bigger.

And.

And, yeah, ultimately like recognize that the, the thoughts are just doing their thing. They're just doing their thing. Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. Thank you, Divya. Yeah. Let's see here. I think we. Oh yeah. Anastasia.

Thank you. Hi. I think you mentioned that you have 10 months old child.

Yes, I do. Yes.

Well, later today I'm going to a book club and we'll be discussing the anxious generation, all about kids and phones like that book. So. So I have a nine year old and I'm very much aware I try to be a good role model. Like my daughter does not have an iPad, things like that. We have technology free Tuesday nights. But have you thought about what you gonna do? Like kind of like anything that maybe not a very orthodox advice for parents?

Hmm, that's a great question. It's, it's something that we've thought about a good amount and it's hard to say because one of the things I've learned from still being early, the parenting journey is that you have ideas on what, how you're going to parent and how it's going to go and then you get humbled into what actually happens. And so I want to just be real that I don't know what will happen. But I think some of the things that we're thinking about are like we don't have a TV in our home and so that feels really important. We, my partner Grace has a, one of those screen blurs on her iPhone and so that you know, when he looks at it it just looks like a blank screen unless you're staring straight at it. And I think that's a really good idea. I mean I think just the, the psychic wounding from a child who sees their parent just like constantly on the phone. This has to be very real. And so I think things like that help and then I think other things that we're going to try to do is. I mean I don't know if folks have heard about Ms. Rachel, but she's a very popular YouTube educator that a lot of like young toddlers watch and it, some people love it. But also a lot of this sort of like digital education is like built on some of these like hooks of attention bids and almost artificial sense of like having all of your like a needs met like when you're, when you are just like creates an artificial. What I've heard the critique of some of these, these digital teachers is that they give kids a false sense of what it actually human engagement is like. And, and so I think we're going to try to really limit that as much as possible as for the, you know, and then practicing the. The Sabbath once a week. But I, But I also just like, I think on this front, I have to be honest that like, like, you know, you say you hope it's going to go one way and that you're not going to be the couple that takes their kids to dinner and brings the iPad out so that the kid can just tune out and watch a show. But having just been on this journey, I know that sometimes things get really hard and you need to just do whatever you can. And so I would defer to your expertise here.

Thank you. I love your notion that you do not have tv, because I feel like we're so focused on. On phones and social media that now it's like, oh, it's just cartoons on TV, right. Versus 20 years ago. We're like, no, no, no. We're going to limit 30 minutes max per day. Now it's like just TV.

Totally. Totally. Exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah, we. We don't have that. We. We like, like, so Grace and I will watch, like, in some. If we want to watch a show in our, like, in our bedroom on our. My iPad. And so not having a TV helps a lot. And. But we're also like, that's not everyone. You know, some. Some people that might sound crazy. For us, that's. It's perfectly fine and normal to not have a tv, but it's also, I feel like more European. Like when you've traveled to Europe, when I've been in Europe a lot. Like, it just. It's kind of an eyesore in the living room. And so aesthetically, I prefer not to have it and to not have a, like a living space be consumed centered around that sort of consumerism to me is important.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Svedia. Is that right?

Yeah.

Hi.

Hi.

So I had a question on a phrase that you said during the chat. And it was said, the body can heal itself. It knows how to do that on its own. And that really resonated with me. I had a question on, like, there seems to be an intrinsic relationship between.

Like.

Safety and trust. I'm already feeling a lot of option, but it's been coming up on the course where I wanted to understand the relationship between, like, if the body has endured trauma, it doesn't feel implicitly safe to drop in. How to curate that sense of safety because it's been a blocker. As I explore these tools to kind of navigate a sense of being present. And I think in a lot of ways I've been able to access like guided meditation or open eyes meditation to help me feel safer in the body. And I. I often, I often find myself struggling to be present with my physical sensations and my breath because I think there's an innate sense of betrayal that I experience my body due to history of violence. And I was curious to know, like, if there's what your perspective is on kind of navigating that experience while also at the same time like leaning into that it knows how to heal and I guess creating a sense of safety there.

Thank you for that. And first, I want to just say that what I see you doing right now is being present with what maybe is uncomfortable and yet being deeply here with it. Yeah. And so I see you doing that and having that capacity. Yeah. I'm also, I mean, I don't want to just avoid your question, but I'm curious what, what really spoke to you about there's an intelligence in the body, there's a healing current in the body and what that evokes in you.

I think it's just a very dramatic shift to how I orient to my body. I. I've. I've kind of gone through life disembodied from my physical sense because of enduring violence at a very young age that I'm repeated as an adult. And so I think that phrase was new.

Yeah, it was new. Right. Because the body maybe hasn't been so safe, hasn't felt like a healing, A healing, natural healing current. It's like, whoa. Yeah. And yet something in you feels drawn to that too. So those both can be here where the body feels like it's like, hasn't been a safe place. And there sounds like real serious trauma there. And there's something in, you know, that knows that, that healing currents there. And so just notice what it's like for both of those to be here and see what develops. What was that?

Yeah. It feels like having two hands.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Almost being pulled in different directions.

Yes. Yes. It's difficult to feel both.

To feel both. Yeah, yeah. Is one more prominent than an experience.

I think you can oscillate. I think you're reflecting back to me what I was embodying and that feels safe. It feels more settled.

There's something say. Yeah. And just let's like, if we can. Because that's what it's like. I was like, I don't think I need to answer. Like, let's just get, like, invite some curiosity, like allow attention to sort of just very like curiously move towards that sense of safety, however you're noticing it. And if you can try to articulate that for us too.

I think it's this feeling of it's okay to feel both and I don't have to feel one or the other.

Yeah, yeah, right. You have capacity for both. And. And I just want to also just really commend your courage here and just like, really also reflect. There's this really like, sweet, gentle, tender part that's here of you, that's just being with both of this right now. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think that's what I would. Would also how I would answer is just like, we can have such deep wounding and the body can feel like it's not a safe place. And there's some like, just deep, deep marrow cellular instinctual knowing that like the body, there is some sort of intelligence that. That wants to heal itself. Yeah, right. And it's actually the. The removal of the binary of that. Of having it to be one or the other that can actually be the most relieving.

Yeah.

It's making, I guess, orient towards, you know, all of the, like, somatic exercises that I've skipped and being like, I don't have to feel good or calm.

Right.

It makes me think of the 10%. Like.

Right.

Yes, right. And just, just. And that's. That's what. That's what we're doing is just like slowly for you, just very slowly being like, oh, yeah. There's part of me that knows that there's something here that can heal and there's still that sense of it not being safe. And like, can I just go slowly here and allow myself to be with this? And then the more you, You. You do that and build. And you can build your confidence in your ability to be. And that really is like, my favorite definition of healing is. Healing is the. Is the increased capacity to be with what is just whatever's here. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So much. Ocean, when do we wrap or. Johnny?

Yeah.

Yeah. So we're. We're five minutes over, so thank you for giving us a little bit extra time and. Yeah. Wow. Thank you to everyone for showing up so beautifully and vulnerably and just really bringing a lot of. A lot of real stuff. It was a really, really nourishing conversation.

Thank.

Thank you, Alex, as well for just your time. I. I want to share and yeah, please share in the chat as well if you kind of.

Yeah. I want to just say thank you all so much. You know, I wish that for some of you, like the, the. Some of the stuff is, like, really, we'd want to, like, have a lot more space to go into it. But thank you all for being here. Thank you, Johnny and Ocean. This is. This is awesome, awesome work you all are doing.

And we'll share. Ocean, do you want to share a link to SIMA list as well for folks who might want to work kind of directly with other Hakomi practitioners, which is. Is one of the modalities Alex has trained in? I think that might be. Yeah, might be a good resource to drop in as well. Well, beautiful. Any. Any final parting words, Alex, or anything you'd like to direct folks to before we go?

No, I. I mean, just a beautiful, vulnerable community here, and I think that. Yeah. Do we like doing this? This came up once, but just doing this together and being vulnerable and being open and. And then noticing that, like. Oh, yeah, there's. There's always so much here and having that, like, be non problematic and, like, celebrated is what I love. And so, yeah, this is. This has also really touched me. So thank you all.

Beautiful. Let's all unmute and what should we. What feels like a good checkout phrase? Alex, what comes to mind?

I am awareness. Let's do that.

Let's do it. All right, so on the count of three. I am awareness. Three, two, one. I am awareness. Beautiful. We'll wrap with that. Thank you, everyone.

Thank you all. Yeah.

Thank you.