👨‍🏫 Guest Masterclass: Embracing Embodied Exercise and Intuitive Fitness w/ Sam Sager

I would like to welcome Mr. Sam Sager to the stage. Sam was one of our NSM alumni. We've also, we met up in Asheville recently and we've kind of become good friends over the last few weeks. And so I'm excited to also learn. And he's a movement specialist and an entrepreneur and a bunch of things. So thank you for hosting this. Sam and I will mic over to you. Sam also has an amazing podcast as well. You guys haven't heard it. I'll send the link afterwards.

Thank you, Johnny. I, yeah, had, had you had Johnny on, and it was quite a fun conversation. So if you guys want to dive deeper into that, definitely check it out. But welcome, everybody. I'm super, super jazzed to be sharing this with you and really just having this conversation with this group, I think as, as evident by the Circle community, it's a really cool collection of people. And so I think, like Johnny said, I'm, I'm excited to learn as well. Let me go ahead and share my screen and we'll, we'll kick this off. So just let me. Can everybody see that? Wonderful. All right, awesome. So this is. Is intended to be pretty interactive, so I will be asking you to participate in both the chat and then having some people jump in and talk as we go through it. But as, as, as Johnny highlighted in the agenda, we're going to be covering a little bit of theory, but, but also really jumping in and doing the practice. So start with some reflections, a bit about my background, why I'm passionate about this, go through the learning part, jump into the experience, and then finally wrap with how you can implement this in your own life. So, quick background, who am I? Like many, I was one of those kids that just loved moving. I was always racing around, outside, playing everywhere. And then I discovered sports and just played everything and ended up playing baseball in college. And what I experienced was as I went into competitive sports, my joy for movement shifted from very intrinsic. It was all about the activity itself. And then it became about chasing goals. And so I loved exercise, but it was always trying to get better for sport and trying to do that. And so when I entered the working world, I ended up just jumping in and all of my enjoyment of exercise disappeared. It was something that became a grind. And like many, I looked around and I didn't know why I was doing it. And so the last decade, I joke. Has been a part of unwinding and unlearning all of that and rediscovering it. And so what I believe is that there's a form of exercise that is enjoyable for everybody. I think that people can find something that is fun and they can tailor it and craft it to be enjoyable. And the reason why I'm passionate about embodied exercise really relates back to this course last year when I first took it because I was stumbling through the woods and I didn't have language for any of the stuff I was talking about and learning about interoception. And all of the practices that Johnny has introduced, introduced us to, gave me language to start talking about what I believe is a path for people to. To find a reliable way to enjoy exercise. So as we kick off, I would love to hear from you all if you could just drop it in the chat and then maybe we can have a couple people participate. You know, why do you exercise? What. What is your primary motivation when you think about exercise? And if you don't want to share, just feel free to journal. But Johnny Miller. To feel good in my body. I love it. Mental health. Great. Another mental health. Managing my mood would be depressed much of the time. If not. Okay, great. To feel good makes me feel healthier. Johnny. To improve capacity for surfing. Awesome. So what you all are highlighting is that there's a lot of both benefits, but also just the process itself is something that many enjoy surfing mostly for fun, other to stay healthy. Yep. I think a lot of the people I talk to, it's really about chasing health goals for health.

Cool.

So that, that definitely tracks. And what's not surprising I think is that in this group specifically there's more people highlighting like you exercise because it's fun. And for that you'd be amazed how many people I talked to and they never mentioned anything to do with fun. And so this is the follow up question, but I think you guys have already highlighted it. Do you truly enjoy exercise? Would be number one and number two, how much of your activities are things you want to do versus should do. So people could, could drop a few thoughts in the, in the chat there and then I'll. If anybody feels compelled to share, I would love to. I'd love to hear anybody's thoughts on how they think about these things they want to do versus feel like they should do.

Yeah, I can share.

Yeah, please. Joan.

So sometimes I do enjoy exercise, but most of the times just routine for me to stay healthy and mentally well. And when you say how much of your activities are thing you want to do, generally the activities or just in the exercise realm.

Yeah, sorry. It's specifically related to exercise.

Okay. Yeah. Most, most of them are should, you know, so if walking is considered an exercise, I enjoy walking. But when I do aerobic, like running and going to the gym, it's just something I.

Yeah.

More on the side of shoot than I want.

Makes sense. Any. Anyone else want to share?

Yeah, I'll, I'll share briefly as well. I think generally speaking, particularly with like weightlifting or rowing or things that have some intensity to it, I, I generally love the process and I love how I feel afterwards. I think recently I've been getting more into like functional movement and mobility practices and realizing that I'm actually quite weak and like at the ends of the muscles and that I would like. I feel like I should do more mobility stuff, but it's, it's less enjoyable and it's basically less fun. And for me it's like, that's the thing that I feel like I should be doing it for my like all around health, but it's not like, it's not something that I'm intuitively drawn to. Um, so that's where I'm, that's where I am with that for sure.

Mo. I feel like mobility work is the thing that everybody knows that they should do now. Yeah, it's, it's just like, just painful.

And it doesn't feel good.

Well, I joke with people that the problem with mobility work is as you do it, all you're doing is uncovering the new areas where you need more mobility work.

Yeah.

So there's never. It never ends. You do some stretching, you're moving, you're like, oh, that's really tight. Oh, you know, you got to be humbling.

Exactly. Yeah.

So I've had kind of a. Yeah.

I was just gonna say I've had kind of a different experience with that. I started doing functional range conditioning, which is kind of like mobility, and had some similar experiences to Johnny, but I've been doing it maybe for four months now. And as you, as you start to open up those end ranges and as you start to be able to activate.

Muscles that you couldn't before or different.

Parts of muscles, you notice it in the gym and that becomes that, that actually becomes exciting for me. So in the moment of doing the, the mobility work, maybe it's not so fun, but it's become, it's become pretty enjoyable because you're just discovering more about your body and activating things that you didn't even know you could.

Totally. Yeah. And I think largely what we're going to talk about and experience today is how can you enjoy the Process more. And how can you exactly, like you said, reconnect to your body through that? And so, Johnny, I'll be curious after you experiment with some of these things that we talk about today, if you find the process is any more enjoyable. Because a lot of it is, is more geared towards mobility given. You know, not all of us are in a, a strength gym or can't go outside running during this workshop. So we're going to do a few, few simple things there. But yeah, I'm just catching up on the chat. So, you know, a few people are highlighting that certain forms of it and somebody mentioned earlier, I think that was you, John, that like is walking exercise. Absolutely. You know, moving your body, going around, walking is exercise. And that can be a portal. Um, some. Kathy shared outdoor movement. Love it. Weightlifting feels more like a should. You know, Andrew's highlighting how enjoy cycling other people. You know, gym feels like a should. And that's very common. Right. There's some things that feel like just I want to do some things that feel like I should do. And so my hope today is shares ways that you can, no matter what the activity is, make it the process a bit more enjoyable. All right. But ultimately I think that my hope for this and the question that I'm fascinated by is how can we become people who truly enjoy exercise? There's so much information out there about the things that we have to do, all the benefits, all of the ways that we can grind through workouts to be healthier, to be stronger, to lose weight. And I don't think there's enough about what does it take to actually become people who enjoy exercise? Because once this shift is made, the process is more fun, it's more sustainable, the curiosity is open and it becomes something that you're just drawn to. And I think of it as like a snowball that just starts rolling and it builds, builds over time. And then you don't need all of these kind of hacks and accountability systems and all of that. So let's jump into a bit of the nuts and bolts of the ideas and then we'll get into the experiential part. So I want you all to just take a quick look at these two definitions. So we have extrinsic motivation and intrinsic motivation. So I'll just pause while you read them. And I want you to think about why most people exercise, the, the motivators. And I, I think this group, I think was a bit different. But if you think about how people talk about exercise and how about it, oh, I want to lose five pounds or, you know, I signed up for a race and I, I'm, you know, going to run my first half marathon or I, I'm just, you know, want to get a little bit stronger so I can deadlift, you know, 225 pounds or. Yeah, I, I just, I never miss a workout and you know, I'm, I'm not breaking the chain or, you know, I just am going to for workout and if I don't, I'll pay my friend money and I, I share that because I think these are, there's nothing wrong with these things, but they're extrinsic goals or, you know, extrinsic punishment. Even the idea of like this guilt we feel if we miss a workout, that's a form of self punishment where we're setting ourselves up to say, if I don't do this thing, if I don't achieve this thing. And everything is orienting ourselves to something in the future away from the activity itself. And on the, on the other side, intrinsic motivation is simply doing something because it's satisfying. It's having curiosity and enjoyment during the moment itself. Um, and so what we're really talking about here is a shift from satisfaction of doing a workout, like, hey, I finished the workout, to like satisfaction during the workout. And I'm curious as people, I see a couple of people in the, in the chat, you know, talking. Does anybody, does anybody have any kind of experiences with extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation they want to share?

I feel like for me, I, I can definitely relate to both. And the things that I'm sort of putting more in the intrinsic bucket are either like, more classic sports. So like, I surf some climbing, but it tends to have a more sociable element, whereas the extrinsic motivation, it tends to be like going to the gym, doing quite either an intense class or the kinds of activities where I know, like, I need to do Pilates because it's good for my body. So there seems to be more of a social, sporty element to intrinsic stuff for me. Intrinsic stuff, sorry.

Yeah, that's, that's a great example. And I think you often find that people have certain things that they do, and it really maps often to those wants versus shoulds. And I think what we're talking about today is how can you cultivate intrinsic motivation for any activity? And I want to be clear. Like, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with extrinsic motivation. I'm as competitive as they come. Like, I love a challenge, I love pursuing Things that I have never been able to do. I set goals. Sometimes I do all those things. So I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with those things. Often those are great ways to get started. I'm simply asking the question of is that a reliable way to enjoy the activity itself? Like, are we setting ourselves up? And to solve the goal of I want to actually enjoy this exercise, and are there ways that we can intentionally steer ourselves towards practices and ways of doing it that make us more likely to enjoy it? And so that. Let me just admit that person. Okay, so that leads us into this how? And this is where in my experience, and largely influenced by nervous system mastery for the first time I took it, I believe embodied exercise is a pathway where we can intentionally cultivate more, more enjoyment for the activity itself. And so I want you to think about this, like, idea of default exercise. So I want you to think about this idea of default extras, which is often goal driven, accountable, disassociated. And those words should grind, hate. Like, if you think about somebody running for the first time, they sign up for a race, they say, oh, I want to get faster so I can complete this race. They start pushing themselves as, as hard as they can right out of the gate. And even if it's hard, you know, they say, oh, that's just exercise. Exercise is supposed to be really hard. So I'm going to grind through it, I'm going to ramp up, and I'm going to run further and faster. I'm going to tell my friends. So they hold me accountable where if I miss a run, you know, everybody sees it in my strava and I feel this sense of guilt. And so they, they slog through it. They do it. They, they, they. Maybe every now and then they have a little bit of a runner's high, but they're just chasing this, this goal down the road. And so when they finish the race, they ask themselves what's next? And often they, maybe they sign up for a longer race. Um, but unfortunately, a lot of the people during that, they never actually enjoy or cultivate an enjoyment of the running itself. And I think that's why we often see people stuck in this loop of extrinsic motivation where they're signing up for the next race or they're, they're looking for another way to force themselves to continue running. And so I want you to compare that to somebody who does what I call embodied exercise. So this person just decides, hey, I'm going to start running and I'm going to Try to enjoy it as much as possible. So they go out for a run and they try to find the pace that feels good at this point. And they try to feel every single step they take on the ground. And they drop into a rhythmic rotation of one foot after another. And all of a sudden their mind starts to quiet. They start to feel the running in their body. Maybe they notice some sensation in their legs of fatigue. And instead of getting uncomfortable or, you know, backing off, they say, oh, just. That's interesting. And they get curious and they start to, like, think and feel that a bit more. And I think that as you imagine somebody doing this, you start to realize, like, there's a pathway into flow that's similar to when we're playing sports or when we're playing that, that we can cultivate if we bring awareness. And so Johnny has highlighted throughout this course this idea of interoception. And I think one of the most powerful parts about breath work is that it increases the sensations that we're feeling in our body so that as you start to breathe in a different way, you notice more. And I think exercise is exactly the same thing. As you start to move, the sensations increase and you can start to notice more. And so if you bring curiosity to that, it can become really interesting. It can become enjoyable if you're not having contact with your experience, in my view, it's pretty hard to enjoy it during the moment. You may end up just, you know, thinking through other stuff. And so as you do this, that exercise of running just starts to transform. And I think a lot of people think, oh, well, then I'll never, I'll never hit my goal. But I propose the opposite. I think the more that you're connected to your body, the more that you can play with the intensity. You can start to realize, hey, actually, I can go a little bit further. Oh, I can ramp up. And I can realize my breath hasn't yet, you know, shifted from my nose into my. Into my mouth. And so I'm not past, you know, zone two or zone three. And so you can start to play and have contact. So I'll pause there and I, I'm really curious for people's thoughts. Do you find that you are often in more of the default mode for exercise for some of these things like the strength training and the running? Or do you find that you, you are already in the embodied approach as you, as you go through these?

So I'm in the default mode when it comes to strength training. Sometimes I, I want to focus on my muscle Legs. What's the negative sense that you focus on the pricer than you or like the mind, the massive connection. I, I would love if you could elaborate on this. If it's actually, I think, you know, squeezing the muscle and thinking of the muscle and contracting when it comes to running and try to be more about it, but it's really uncomfortable. So I, I escape my experience.

Yeah, yeah, Escaping experience is a perfect way of saying, you know, that disassociated, disembodied state. I, I know it far too well. You know, I even joke, I think when I was an athlete I viewed that as a positive, like the ability to disassociate and say I'm not going to feel what I'm feeling right now because it's not going to serve me. And I think that there's a form of safety in that. But as we learn, and we'll talk, talk later about this idea of fatigue questioning which Johnny asked about in the, the run up to this course, we'll talk about that and I think that's a really interesting practice for that moment you're talking about. Anyone else have any other thoughts?

Yeah, I just wanted to kind of elaborate briefly on that point. Like, my experience was I was a kind of university rower when I was younger and I think I got good at rowing because I was able to kind of check out and go through the pain of the lactic acid buildup in that process. And I feel like there's almost like a period of switching the fuel source, I suppose, from checking out to kind of going into and feeling and enjoying the intensity of certain things. But that might kind of have like an adjustment period, I think. So people who are looking to go from default to more embodied, like maybe there's a bit of a kind of road to recalibration in some ways.

I think that's right. I think that it's just an adjustment for sure. And you know, I think as, as we. I was having a conversation with someone recently and the idea came up that it takes courage to really feel what's in our body at times. And I think this is a really great example of that. And it may result in your mile time or something going slightly backwards. And I think that's where it comes down to what's most important to each of us at this point. If your goal is to run as fast as you possibly can and the default path is working for you, I'm not here to tell you to change your approach, but I would ask the question of whether that's maximizing the likelihood of you really enjoying it. And over the long run, you know, which, which is more important? Cultivating enjoyment for the process or just, you know, getting things done and hitting, hitting those milestones. So I think I wouldn't necessarily tell a pro athlete to start to do this six weeks before their biggest competition. But I think for a lot of people who are, are just doing this for, for life and for health benefits, I think it, like Johnny said, it's worth taking that step back if that even happens. I think sometimes people just realize. And we'll talk about that. With the fatigue questioning any final, final thoughts? I see Andrew sharing a bit in the chat. Anders, do you want to jump in and add anything here or. No, no, no pressure at all.

No, I think that's. Yeah, maybe I can come back to it.

Okay, perfect. All right. So I always think it's helpful just to give something a definition. So what are we actually talking about with embodied exercise? I define it as moving your body while paying attention to everything you experience, or more simply just move and feel it. So we're moving around and we're actually opening ourselves up. We're embracing this idea of interoception of what's happening inside of us and inside of our bodies, what is our full experience of it. And I, I don't want people to think that this is something that's complicated or you need a ten step plan to, to be able to do like this is something that we all were born with, that we all knew how watch a, watch a kid as they're learning to crawl or learning to walk. They are so embodied. They're, they're, they're just in this joyful state of discovering what their body's capable of. And I think that often, you know, our whole world is very extrinsically centered. And you know, I think we are trained out of this. Some people, and by the way, some people, they, they, they listen to me talk about this and they think I'm craz. Like, what are you talking about? This is just the natural way that I do things. And they don't realize that there's many people that have shifted, you know, out of an embodied approach for some of this stuff. And so I think that this is often a process of unlearning and unwinding. It's not that you need to learn something new. You just need to regain a natural capacity that you've always had. And I think that the way to do that is through experiments. And so on one side there's you know, dedicated practices. These are like little micro workouts, micro practices that we can do to really focus on experiencing embodiment by creating a simple container to feel it while we're moving. And so I'll go through a few of these. This is, will be a big part of what we're doing today. But I think the power of this is that you can really bring this to any physical activity. So you can not only experience it when you're doing a subconscious flow or when you're doing a walking meditation, but you can while running, use somatic cues to reenter your body. When you're in a really intense, high, high intensity hiit workout, you can use fatigue questioning to like get into your body during that moment of discomfort. You can slow anything down or speed it up and, and intent and change the intensity and then pay attention to how, how you experience it. So this is what we'll go through and, and we'll talk about each one. I see a question for fatigue questioning. That was the same one. We, we will get to it, I promise. That's it.

It.

I, I will say these are all, I enjoy all these, but that's probably my favorite. So don't worry, we will definitely get to that. So any questions other than what's fatigue questioning? Which we'll cover. Any questions at this point before we jump into the practice stage of this, Any thoughts that anyone wants to share?

Just a question. What's tempo play?

So tempo play is one that we will experience in the, during the practice session today, but that is changing the intensity of a, of a activity. So it could be an in Today we'll just do it with a very simple individual movement. But it could be anything. It could be running and just by dialing up how fast you're running or dialing it way down, seeing how the difference feels in your body, or if you're doing a deadlift, doing it really slow and focusing on form and then ramping it way up and just doing and just to see how it feels. And so the goal here is to create different ways of, you know, similar to some of the breath work we talked about earlier, where you're changing what's happening in your body so it's easier to notice it. Um, and that way in the future you start to train yourself where if you're running and all of a sudden you didn't realize you were running faster, you've trained your yourself to have awareness for what's happening in your body and maybe you start to feel that in your lungs. And so before you get to that stage where you realize you've been running too fast for the distance you're going, you start to notice a bit earlier. Does that, does that make sense? Any follow up questions?

Cool. Yeah.

If you can speak about what I asked you, the mind muscle connection, if it's not the thing, and if you have any benefit by focusing on the muscle you are squeezing while you are doing the exercise.

Yeah, yeah. So I think that, I mean the, the mind and the mind body connection, that, that is something that I think somebody with far greater depth I would need to kind of fully dig into. Like, there's so much nuance there. You know, what's the mind, what's the, what's the body? You know, I think I'm a believer that they're sort of the same thing. But to your point, like bringing awareness to the muscle, I think is absolutely. That's really what all this is about. Like, I think you can do a simple bicep curl and just, you could just cruise through it as fast as you can just to say you did it and you could do 30, 30 pounds, 50 pounds, whatever. If you slowed yourself down and felt the contraction, guarantee you'll get a better experience. Because if you only contract and pull with the bicep instead of your forearm and your shoulder, you're focusing on that part that you're working. And you know, I can share some stuff after in, in a follow up related to, there's, there's research around how focusing more around like the, the contraction itself can actually enhance the workout. So a hundred percent, I think that is definitely a great thing to do for a variety of reasons.

Could I just add, add something to that, Sam as well, please. Something I've been exploring is the difference between attention and awareness. And so for example, you can have like the spotlight of your attention on say your bicep, but your awareness can be wide and expansive. So I've been doing kind of deadlifts and I've been having the spotlight of my attention on those various muscle groups, but having my awareness be kind of expanded and being aware of the space above, behind me, to the sides of me. And that's something that's really interesting to play with and just noting that there is a difference between our awareness, which can be narrow or expanded, and then the spotlight of attention can actually be in two or three different places at the same time. So you could have your awareness on your bicep, on your quads and in your hands at the same time and just kind of See how that affects your experience.

I love that, Johnny. I saw Charlotte joined a bit ago, and that connects closely to the meditation book the Mind Illuminated, which is largely training people. This idea of attention and then while maintaining peripheral awareness, which was. Was a total game changer for me from a meditation perspective because I was in the past so focused on the attention side. But I think that the point there is that, that that's exactly what this is about, is we can take things that have typically done in meditation, you know, while sitting on a mat, and we can bring it to exercise. And the sensory terrain can be enhanced. And so it can be a portal to experience some things that were previously reserved for meditation. And what I have found is that those actually play really well. Like, you can, you can practice on your own doing somatic meditation. You can bring it to exercise, and you can bring it back. So great, great example, Johnny. All right, let's jump into the practice. And so we're obviously constrained by everybody here. If you have room to step away from the camera and still hear me and do it, great. If you want to just do it while sitting here, you know, I'll be sitting here and there'll be a form of it that you can do. But I think that if you can step away and at least stand up, um, you know, you may get a good experience. And if you'd rather just listen and, you know, do it and then try this again later. Absolutely no pressure. Um, but here's what we're overall gonna go. We're gonna go through a quick series pre workout warmup. There's a couple sets, nothing too intense. Um, and then, you know, we'll. We'll wrap with a post workout. Um, so the before, before we jump in, I, I thought it'd be fun to do a quick breathing exercise in the spirit of all this. And, and I share this because this is something that I, I think that often the reason people don't want to work out or don't feel comfortable or they face a lot of resistance, connects to a lot of the things we're learning in this course where our state is one place and the experience of being ready for exercise is a different place. So maybe we just came out of a bunch of tiring meetings and we're feeling a little lethargic and we're not quite feeling up for exercise. And so in the past, we reach for a coffee or back in when my sports days, I don't know if anybody else had super pump. It was this incredibly intense pre workout with crazy chemicals that would get you all jacked up. And so we'd slug those. And what we're really doing was just shifting our state and, you know, getting into a place where we were excited. But as we learned in this course, we can do that with our breath. And so as we begin, we'll. We'll start with bellows breath. So we'll. We'll just do 27 rapid exhales. We're not going to do this two to three times, just once. But if everybody could just take a. Take a moment. And we're going to do 27 rapid exhales to the nose. And then you're just going to take a calm exhale, pause, and a full inhale, and then hold for 30 seconds and we'll just do this on our own. So ready? Get started now, Sam, I'll give everybody a few more minutes up. All right. Did anyone feel their. Their state shift at all?

Yeah. My question is. So the 2:27 rapid exchange was like short in breaths and short and quick exhales, right?

Yeah. So you actually. I should have shared this before. You actually just focus on the exhale, and then the inhale takes care of itself.

Okay.

So it's. It's really just. Just a. Like you're just pushing out, and then the inhale takes. Takes care of itself. I would. I would demonstrate more, but I've. I've had a head cold the last weekend. I think it might be. It might be dangerous. Johnny, anything you want to add on the. The bellows breath or the espresso breath, as I think you. You sometimes call it?

Yeah, so the other thing that I'll mention is that sometimes it can also be powerful to do the hold on exhale. So after 27, exhale all the way and then kind of push out what's known as your residual volume. So it's like you breathe out and then you breathe out, and then you hold. And you'll feel like a vacuum in your lower diaphragm. And holding there for kind of as long as you can, you kind of start to feel heat build in that space as well. But they're both. They're both powerful.

You mean after the set, after the 30 seconds you hold in here, then you exhale fully and then you hold the exhale.

You can do both. I. So I'd actually recommend 27 rapid exhales, then holding on the ex. Exhale.

Okay.

And then when you need to breathe in, then breathe in and then hold on the inhale. Okay.

Can I ask from like a physiology Perspective why you do this before exercise. I'm imagining like you've got a diaphragm working and you've done something with your carbon dioxide levels. But that's a guess.

Yeah. Johnny, do you want to. I mean I. I think of it the one. There's also the component of it helps you get into your body. Right. From a perspective of embodied exercise. There's that my experience of it. I'll let Johnny speak to the science, but is to it just in a similar way that, you know, when you, when you have a coffee, you start to just notice and upregulation and just an uptick in energy. To me, this almost every single time, just naturally I feel myself just buzzing with a bit more energy, especially if you do it a few times. So Johnny, do you. Is there a specific kind of science behind it or something you want to share?

So it's. I mean it is literally activating the sympathetic branch of the nervous system which is releasing small amounts of adrenaline and cortisol into the body. And so I think about it almost as like you wouldn't go from like first gear to fifth gear in a car that's like cold. And so it's almost like a way of like slowly going through the gears. It can also be really good before something like a cold plunge or things like that. And it's a way of creating activation energy that is adrenaline and cortisol in the body, which then gets you ready for movement, exercise, whatever the practice is.

Awesome. All right, so let's, let's jump in. And this first one goes back to what Johnny was talking about earlier with mobility work. I think one of the downsides of mobility work is it often feels very prescriptive where we're following a routine. We are looking for an expert to tell us, hey, what's the best thing to stretch my hips? Or even a yoga class is often a teacher's guiding us. And so here instead of our intention is just to learn to listen to the body. So we're just going to do this for a couple minutes. You can stay sitting, you can stand, you can move to the floor. But the goal is to make an intention to just move and listen to whatever your body wants to do. So you can start. I'll let everybody get situated, then I'll just start guiding you there. But you're going to begin to move or stretch in whatever way you want to. To begin, maybe you just stretch your hamstring, do a butterfly stretch an arm, you know, just, just go across and then try to Let your mind just fade away and just try to listen to what your body wants to move. Notice what you feel. Is there a place that's tight that wants to be stretched? Is there a movement that wants to emerge? Is there some type of motion that a certain body part wants to make? Just listen. Let your body drive. Try to drop into the flow of whatever emerges. There's no right or wrong, nothing you need to do. You're just listening for what your body wants. Take a few more seconds to just see what else wants to come. Any part that feels tense or tight, any part that wants to be shaken out, any movement that's emerging, let yourself fall and flow into it. And when you're ready, just return to your, to your seat or to the camera and we'll get ready for the next exercise. All right, looks like we have a few people still coming back, and so we just did a quick sampling of that, but that's something that I try to do pretty much every day. You could do it for just five minutes in the morning. You could do it before a workout. And it can take, it can take many different forms. It could be a much more fluid flow where you're trying to continually move and practice different type of yoga poses, or it could just be more of a stretching where you start to stretch one body part and you let that flow into the next one where you're uncovering what, what wants to be stretched next. Did anybody have any, any experience there that they, they want to share of, of what that was like? All right, let's jump in then to the first, the first set. And so this is what I call movement exploration. And we're going to just explore embodiment in a single movement as an individual exercise. So pick one you're comfortable with. I, I recommend something like a push up or a squat if, if those are comfortable for you. If you don't want to get up, if you want to just stay sitting, sitting, you could do calf raises. While sitting, you could do shoulder, shoulder raises. You can just, you know, do a, a body weight bicep curl. It's really just about what's comfortable. And so I want you to start by doing a few reps and try to notice what muscles activate. So pick, pick that exercise and maybe, maybe step away if you want to do a squat or a push up and just do a few reps and try to feel what specific muscles are activating. Where can you feel the activity the most? Is there a part of this that's smooth, where you feel like it's effortless and it's gliding and is there a part that's sticky where it just starts to kind of grind together and it, it doesn't feel, doesn't feel good anymore. How does the floor feel if you're, if you're standing or if you're doing a push up? Can you feel the floor with your hands? How does your body feel? Connection wise? Can you feel your different muscles and your joints and your tendons connect and can you feel the tension in certain parts? Now try to play with making it 10% more fluid. Not by thinking, but by your body. Just let your body try to answer the question of what does an invitation to be 10% more fluid feel like? All right, now finish up and as you do that, just try to notice how your body feels right now. And as we do that, we're going to jump into the next set. I'll explain this while you all take a quick rest. And as you're doing that, just try to feel and continue to feel what's in your body. And here our intention is to enhance the sensory terrain. And the way we're going to do that is by doing the same exercise you just did. But now we're going to slow it way down. So this is the slow movement practice. So whichever one you did, you're going to do another set, a few more reps, but you're going to go as slow as you absolutely can. So please begin and just try to feel. How does that slow rep feel different as you move slower and slower? What can you notice now? Can you feel any sensations more fully? Is the fatigue greater? Are you better able to connect to the form? How's the intensity different? And whenever you're ready with the slow reps, I know these are typically much harder, you can rest and pause and settle back into your body and see how you feel now. And as we do that, we'll jump to our final exercise and this one is the tempo play. When we talked earlier, so we just experienced a very slow tempo. And now if you're feeling comfortable in that movement, I want you to ratchet up the intensity. So try to move that exercise through as quickly as possible without, without overdoing it. But just make an intention to experience the intensity. Welcome it in. Do the reps as fast as you can and see what shifts do you notice? Can you now feel your heart rate increase more? Do you feel your breathing change? Any other sensations emerging? Do a few final reps and then rest again and return your awareness to your body and see how it feels different than the first two sets and as you do that, you can return to your seats and we'll have a quick conversation about this. So obviously, very simple example, just a single exercise through a few different things. But I'd love to hear if you can reflect on what did you feel during those. How do the sensations compare to each other to typical exercise? If you want to drop it in the chat or if anybody wants to share, you're welcome to step forward.

Yeah, so I realize why I'm in the default disembodied way because it feels too uncomfortable in my mind races. Oh my God, it's uncomfortable. It has to end. Encountering the sets and battling between continuing giving up so I could focus on the sensations. But I didn't like it.

So yeah, perfect. Well, we will, we'll talk a little bit about that during the fatigue questioning one in a second. So that's, that's a great example. I mean I think that that's a hundred percent a component of why most people aren't comfortable doing that. Because it's uncomfortable. Anyone, Anyone else have any, any thoughts or experiences that came up?

Yeah, I'll just add that. I mean this is something that I've explored a fair bit anyhow. But just by slowing something down, you really notice a lot more of the subtleties and a lot more of the, the individual muscle groups. And for me I kind of noticed the, the tightness that was present in different parts of my body and I found my attention kind of switching between different areas. And also there's more like shaking as well. Kind of tends to happen when I really slow things down.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's mostly what I noticed.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, Johnny, were you doing pushups? Did I see that right? Okay. Yeah, this is a great example. People, you know, want to do as many pushups as they possibly can. And so you see, I don't know if anyone's ever seen Joe Rogan's video of him doing pushups, but if you haven't Google it after this. It's, they're not good pushups. It's, it's, it's pretty funny to watch. But there's, I mean it. So many people will just rush through pushups to get a certain number and they barely get any benefit cuz they're mostly using their arms, I would argue. Like what, who cares how many pushups we can do if we're trying to get stronger to do that. So like if you slow em down and you do 10 and that adds more benefit than doing 30 brushed pushups. Like, who cares how many you did? And I think that most people would get more benefit from doing really good forms really slowly than, you know, doing that. And sure, like, if you're want to, like, work on your muscle contraction and acceleration, then, yeah, you want to do fast push ups. But for most of us, that experience that Johnny's talking about is a really powerful one. I see in the chat that Cassia said that, you know, when we talked, when I shared about, you know, dropping more into the flow, the body responded intuitively by tweaking the exercise. I love that. And that is exactly what we're talking about. There's this idea of, you know, conscious performance versus. Or, sorry, conscious, like effort versus subconscious performance. So when we're learning a new skill, like, if we've never squatted before, we maybe we need to think about certain mechanics and movements or if we're learning the deadlift and it's a little bit technical, like, yes, there's a part where we have to think about it and we have to make sure our back is straight and all that. But there's also a moment, if we really want to own the skill, where we drop out of that conscious mindset and we drop into the subconscious where we're just letting our bodies do it. Like, if people played sports, like I was a baseball player, I could throw the ball 300ft and I didn't have to think about it. I didn't say, oh, I'm gonna throw at this launch angle with this acceleration. Like, my body just knew how to do it. Exactly. And so I think that that should be more of what we're doing. We're inviting our bodies to intuitively respond. And I think that when you do that, you'll realize even with simple stuff like, you know, arm circles, like, when I try to control it, it's not very fluid. And if I just like, slowly, over time, let my arm do it, it becomes much more, much more of a flow. Any final ones before we. We jump to the next section? All right, great. So now that we've done a workout, this was obviously not too intense, but we work. We will close with the practice section with a quick post workout calming breath. And so we're just gonna do. We're just gonna do three of these. Breathe in for three seconds and out for six seconds. So just begin with a quick breath in and I'll let you do this on. Okay, awesome. And so the reason we do this, and we don't need to do it right now, Cause it wasn't intense. But after any intense workout, I can't recommend doing a breathing exercise enough. It can be any calming breath. So it could be, you know, this, this was a double length exhale. You could do a psychological sigh. You could do a box breathing. What you do doesn't really matter as much as long as it's a downregulation strategy. And this comes from Andy Galpin. He talks a lot about on a Huberman podcast, if you're interested. But he says that for any pro athlete he's working with, none of them finish a workout and don't drop right into a breathing routine. And the reason to do this is to downregulate. Just like we brought our state up, we want to now come down. We want to signal to our body it's safe, it's over. We're no longer needed to be in this elevated state. This aids recovery, but it also cultivates energy. So if you ever experienced in the afternoon after a workout where you crash, it's often because we've never brought ourselves back down. And so on that episode, Huberman talks about how he used to not do this and he would always crash in the afternoons. And then he started doing just a very simple breathing protocol and he found that he didn't end up crashing. And you can do a few other things. You can. I'll, I'll, I'll share the name after. It's, it's really, I think it's something to do with like strength protocols and, but it's a, it is truly like, it's one of the best podcasts I've ever heard in terms of like how we do, how we do exercise. And there's so much juicy science in there, but with, with this, this type of breath, it, it can also be. We can go into darkness. So they talk about how just closing your eyes or putting a towel over your head helps. Shifting your music from something intense during the workout to something calming can be really powerful. Um, the point is create an environment and utilize protocols to downregulate to support yourself. Any, any. Has any. Does anybody do any breathing after a workout? I wouldn't be surprised if Johnny already drops in. Yeah, Johnny's raising his hand. Of course he does. Anybody else do already do breathing? This has been a, like, this has been a real game changer for me as I've implemented over the last year.

Just to add something to that. Sam, you can also do things like spinal extension distance or forward folds, which also have a kind of calming effect. So you can combine doing something like a 3, 6 breath with forward folds, with long hold stretches. And that almost. Almost like doubles the effect of the, of the calming as well. Plus, you might have stiff muscles from the. From the workout.

Yeah, that's great. They. They talk in the episode about the benefit of lying down. So if you ever see, like track athletes that are lying down, but I think that, you know, that that's even more bang for your buck. Cause you're getting a nice, nice stretch. Um. Awesome. So I know we have 10 minutes left, and so we'll quickly talk about the apply section, and then we will open it up for questions. And this is. This is where we, you know, my hope is that you can start to think about these ideas and how you can bring them into your own life. And so one of my favorite ways is just through simple somatic cues. This is a. This is the path that I think in any moment, in any exercise, you can start to integrate a more embodied approach. And this is where you just shift into your body by asking simple questions. You know, what muscles can I feel contract? How's my breathing changing? Can I feel my heart rate right now? When do I first feel lactic acid in this moment? That really uncomfortable sensation of the muscle getting tired over time. I mean, if you listen to Arnold talk about it, that's his favorite moment in the entire world, is that thing that makes so many other people come uncomfortable. He. He lives for that. You know, where am I holding tension during this workout? You know, what does the ground feel like? How is the environment around me? So these are simple somatic cues we can use. And now I feel like it's been. It's been built up, but we're getting to the fatigue questioning. So I think a lot of people, and it's come up multiple times during this reason we do not want to be embodied is because it's uncomfortable. The reason why we disassociate is because we can get in our heads and we can, you know, we hear that voice that's saying, stop or I'm tired and we shout back or we overpower it? And I propose the opposite. What if instead of pushing back or pushing down, what if we just got curious? What if in that moment where we feel like we're uncomfortable or on the edge of our comfort zone, what if we said, we ask ourselves, what's my body telling me? Can I experience it fully? Where do I feel this fatigue? Is it in the muscles? Is it in the lungs? Is it in the heart? Like, imagine yourself jogging and that voice comes up like, ah, stop. I don't want to do this anymore. Where's that coming from? And is that because your legs can't go anymore? Is it because your heart rate's too high and your heart's gonna stop? Or, you know, are you really at the place where you're, you're, you're outside of what you're capable of or have you just hit discomfort? And there's a pattern of responding to that by, by stopping. And so I will literally, while running, ask myself what part of my body can't do this right now? And I'm not trying to trick it into not being able to like stop if I need to stop. I'm really just opening and trying to listen to say, are my legs so tired that I can't run? Is, are my lungs so used up I have no more capacity? And what I notice is as soon as I get curious and enter my body, the sensations start to change a bit. They start to get more intense or more clear, but they, they become tangible and there's no longer just this vague voice telling me to stop. And so I'm not here to give you a tactic to overpower those feelings when you're, you know, at the edge of your capacity. It's just an invitation to get super curious. And what I think you'll find you'll realize is that you're often, that's where the magic is, that moment where you're outside of the comfort zone. It's because it's new. It's because you are encountering a new place where you haven't necessarily been before, but you're fully capable of being. And so you also just to say it should have more awareness if you truly need to stop. Like if you're really connected to your body and it's at a dangerous point and the pain in your leg is because you're about to get hurt, being embodied can only support you more in doing that. So if we disassociate, all those things are still there. So that is the overarching idea of fatigue questioning. And this has been, of all of these things, probably my favorite. So does that answer the question for those who were asking earlier, any follow up questions? Johnny?

Yeah, so I, I really love this and I guess I just wanted to like add some more of what I've been playing with and experiences, particularly in the realm of free diving and in ice baths and in, in free diving, for example, there's, there's a point, usually about two minutes into a dive where you start to get kind of diaphragm spasms and contractions. And that is a sign that you actually have like two minutes of air left. But at the same time your mind is like, turn around, go up, go up, go up. And it is that complete. It's like, it's the epitome of kind of what you're speaking to here. And what I found is exactly as you were describing in the sense of, and this also kind of gets to, I guess like almost like a metaphysical question. Like sometimes I'll even ask the question like, who am I? And realizing that I am not the spasming diaphragm or whichever muscle is experiencing pain, but I'm kind of the one witnessing that and being aware of that. And it's not in a way that I disassociate, but it's more in a sense of acknowledging that I'm the one that is aware of the sensation or multiple sensations. And from that place there's usually, as you say, the sensation will change or shift or, or move in some way. And often what it is wanting is actually to be fully felt and acknowledged. And so there's a lot of overlap between how we respond to discomfort physically and then how we respond to the discomfort, like emotional discomfort as well. And I think as you, as you were speaking to, there's so much power and beauty in reframing our relationship to kind of so called sensations that have negative valence, like sensations that we would typically like knee jerk, move away from and actually kind of gently staying with them and not, not in a plan so that it's like painful but just like leaning in a little bit more.

Yeah, absolutely. I'll give you one more example. I, I was an athlete that mostly did sprints and things like that, so long distance was never something I, I enjoyed. And people would talk about this runner's high and I thought they were just, you know, making something up because I never experienced it. It just felt pretty miserable. And as I've started taking embodied approach and let myself work through that little bit of discomfort, it's often on the other side of that where I've dropped fully into my body, my mind has kind of faded to the background and the runner's high starts to really emerge. And so I'm now a believer if you've never experienced it, I, I, my hope would be that the embodiment would, would help help you get there. But yeah, I, I Any other questions? As we kind of wrap to the end, I'm going to run through these Last couple ones really quick, and then we'll open up your questions. So as you think about implementing this, my. My invitation for you is to extend this interoceptive awareness of exercise across all facets of life. So in the moment that it's happening in the workout itself, in the day, so not just noticing how you feel during the workout, but how do you feel a few hours later in the afternoon? So much of the benefit of exercise is the way it supports our energy throughout the day, and yet we often never make that connection or we don't notice how we're feeling on days when we work out and days when we don't think about the week. How is your energy and your body and all these things feeling related to exercise as you flow through the week and even beyond that through a season? So we are just like nature. We all go through seasons in our lives. And they're going to be a point where you're super stressed at work and you're dealing with things at home and trying to maintain exercise at the same level of intensity. It's not feasible. And actually it's just going to have a negative impact. And so if you're embodied, you're far more likely to actually experience that, notice it, and be able to shift your approach to better honor what you're going through in life. And so here's what I call the somatic cycle. And this is what I think is one of the coolest parts of all this, which is the more embodied we are during exercise, the more we uncover these connections between the mental, the emotional, the physical, the more we can refine what we actually want. So what are our inner desires? What are our preference? What are our patterns? When you're working out and you're feeling it, you may notice I freaking hate this exercise. I'm doing it. But I hate deadlifts. And guess what? You don't have to do deadlifts if you hate them. And every time you do them, it's unenjoyable. You can find an alternative. You may realize, like, I think I'm trying to lose weight, but I really want to get stronger. Oh, I think I, you know, like, I think I need to run this race, but I don't really enjoy the process. So the more you refine that, the more you unlock the intrinsic motivation and the joy for exercise itself, and the more you can double down into this process of uncovering, refining, and unlocking. And so at this moment, we'll just pause and I want you to reflect on what do you want to experiment with coming out of today and how can your approach in relation to exercise continue to evolve? And so I know we're at time, but with that, you know, I have as much time as anybody wants and so I'll open it up for any other questions.

I want to explore the fatigue questioning. I really love the idea because I do it in my run. I freak out and I try to approach myself with compassion but that it does not work entirely. My question is that I had taken a somatic course before NSM and the leader kind of discarded the exercise as a means to dissociate and get away from your experience because this adrenaline really is produced. And he said like when you have the runners highs like dissociating and bypassing the feelings instead of being with them. So I'm curious to hear your take on that.

Yeah, so to me it's, it's just an. Everything is an area for practice. So you know, I, I have found that you know, just like breath work, bringing an embodied somatic approach to exercise, it is a way of unlocking more capacity that I can then bring to the rest of my life. So I see them as completely integrated. I haven't found any downside from a perspective of bringing this approach to exercise and then how that relates to my kind of somatic pursuits outside of exercise. But I'd be curious for others experiences there as well.

Yeah, no, I agree with you. And it expands my capacity to feel more feelings.

It's.

Yeah, it's huge. And I'm wondering if I use it as a means of escape sometimes. That's why I ask.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it's sort of similar to exercise, right. Weight training like you said, increasing your capacity. Like if we're able to feel, if we have the capacity to feel some of these intense things or just notice some of the subtleties as we change the tempo or we do that, to me you're just strengthening these capacities that you can bring to, to other areas. But I think to your point around the running, you know, also the more connected you are to your experience, to your body, maybe, maybe it's. Maybe you need to dial the running back for a bit in terms of the pace at which you're going like. So for me, just to share the secret to me enjoying running beyond being embodied was to go way slower. Like I'm a competitive person and I realized that jogging, my problem was my ego. I thought I had to be someone who went to a certain pace and I really wasn't capable of going that pace for as long as I wanted to at the level of like cardio zone, like how fast my heart rate was going, I was more or less pushing myself outside of my capacities and it was pretty unenjoyable. And so slowing way down and then building back up was a big part of that. So I know not prescribing that for you, but just, you know, invitation to try, to try slowing down if it's, if the sensations are truly too, too uncomfortable.

Great. Yeah. I'll just add to that briefly. I think that in my experience, exercise, like with anything, it can be a form of escapism and it can be a route of going into something more deeply. And it's really the intention behind exploring it. And I think that many of us are, we're less comfortable with the slower paced things and with doing something in a much more kind of gradual, refined way. And so that might have been what your teacher was speaking to and that there can be a discomfort in like it, like say, going for a run. It could be a way of like escaping and not feeling the thing that's alive or it could be I'm going to go for a run and deliberately go into this thing that I'm feeling. And it's really the intention behind it that could be subconscious as well.

Yeah, that helps a lot.

Great point. Any, Any other questions, thoughts?

Yeah, I think I, I've been thinking of exercise as just being a lot about me, sort of enduring, enduring something for future benefit of good health, health and such. Right. And so, and I think now after hearing this talk, I think I will more focus on finding those moments on my cycling commute or whatever it might be to, to sort of more lean into when, when it, when it feels good and it's, it's enjoyable and also perhaps seek out activities that more, more with the, with the fun part ahead of the exercise part and then. Yeah, yeah, somehow see if I can improve things like that.

Yeah, I love that. Interesting.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. And, and I think that my, my encouragement is that, you know, I, I truly believe there's a form of exercise that's enjoyable for everybody and that we can cultivate some of these practices that can want to do more enjoyable. And so my encouragement to all is just to find things that you truly enjoy doing and to, you know, practice, practice this stuff and to experiment with bringing it because you may find things that you used to think you didn't enjoy. Like, I know some people that had always hated strength training. It felt like something that was really uncomfortable, felt like something that was scary and just intimidating. And through this process of just experiencing it fully, they found that it actually was the form of exercise they loved. So. So I think definitely lean in on the things that you enjoy and also experiment with other stuff and just see if there's a form of. That comes alive. Anyone else? Questions, ideas, stuff we didn't cover that you're curious about? My. My hope is that. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I just wanted to add that I just feel like I. I had to share my experience with running because I've been kind of doing the same thing. And what has really helped is to just notice my resistance, because usually I. I feel like there's a resistance when uncomfortable sensations arise. And so in just noticing that, I feel like, you know, the story kind of drops right, and. And I'm just able to just be with the sensation, and it's, in a way, sometimes enjoyable. Other times it's. I mean, it's bearable. I'm. All I know is that I'm not resistant. I'm not dissociating from it. And so that's one thing. And also, you know, like, I plan to go and run, and I also plan to listen to podcasts and these kinds of things, but ever since I started with this kind of, you know, be more embodied, just this practice, I. Ever since I started this, you know, I feel like I don't want to listen to podcasts. I don't want to listen to anything. So I just want to ask, like, what is your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I should have a disclaimer on this, this workshop that if you enjoy listening to podcasts while exercising and. And you discover this process, you may. You may no longer enjoy listening to podcasts. And I actually hear that a ton. I. I was. I was talking to a few people on Twitter the other day about this stuff, and after they tried it, they had the same experience where they. They stopped listening to podcasts. And so the way I interpret that is that our internal sensory experience is so exciting, interesting, and potentially enjoyable that it is something that we want to lean into instead of listening to other people talk while we're exercising. And so I don't. I used to do audiobooks and stuff like that, and if I'm doing a really long bike ride, you know, mostly for cardio help, maybe I'll listen to an audiobook, something fiction. But I've had the same experience. I think that it's a testament to how our own experiences can come so fully to life. Anyone else have any. Any experiences or ideas they want to share. If not, I will leave you with one. One final thought. I think that so often the reasons we exercise are kind of ingrained in us from others, like so many areas. And so my, my final encouragement to, to you all as you jump into more embodied exercise is just open yourself up to uncovering what you really want and what you really enjoy. And so don't. Don't kind of feel like you have to do certain things just because others tell you. I think if you begin to listen to your body, maybe like Johnny talked about earlier, maybe there'll be a step back where you don't feel like you're doing as much or as intense. But most people I talk to, they want to be exercising for their entire life. And all of the benefits of exercise occur by doing it, you know, workout after workout, over time. If things can build. And so don't. Don't feel like you have to force yourself to do certain things. Cultivate practices that help you enjoy it and then sustain that over the long run and open yourself up to finding out what you really want and how you can do that in a way that that is. Is fully enjoyable for you. So any final, final words from anyone or should we. Should we wrap.

Just if this is the episode that you were talking about.

Oh, yeah, let me click on this link real quick. I think you sent the. This episode. This one is just him, I think, doing a summary. I'll drop it on the. On the workshop. Like, I'll put it in the Circle community. I have it. I have it in my notes. So yeah, if you're interested. It. It truly is like I joke with people, that episode, it's basically like somebody went through a personal training course. The amount of. Of details and nitty gritty stuff. So it's, it's super powerful. And I love that he talks about breath work, the recovery protocols, because I think that that's a huge part of this is as we connect to our body. It's not just during the workouts, but it's creating support for our bodies to recover and, you know, be able to come back again fresh. Mm.

Yeah. I'll just maybe, maybe kind of close by saying thank you so much, Sam. And for those of you listening or for people watching the replay, maybe try and find like one or two things from this session which feel like they might be good experiments for the next week or so, whether it's a new routine or applying different awareness to something that you're already doing. And so please share in the, in the Circle community. Maybe tagging Sam, sharing in the, the Small Wind channel or the general channel. And yeah, I, for one, intend to kind of play with this, particularly in my mobility practice and kind of, I, I, I like the idea of it being more intuitive and kind of following what does my body feel like it, it wants to do? Um, yes.

So, yeah, I guarantee your hips and your ankles will, will tell you when they want to be stretched. You don't, you don't need a, a YouTube video to tell you, to tell you how to, to do that. And obviously there are, there are protocols and things that you can play with, but yeah, definitely play with it. Let us know.

Yeah.

If anybody has any questions, reach out in the Circle community. Connect on Twitter. The, My, My Twitter is in here and in the Circle community, so feel free to reach out directly with any questions. I love, I love riffing on all this kind of stuff.

Thank you so, yeah, amazing. Thank you so much, Sam. This has been really fun and I love just seeing, taking some of, like, the NSM principles and applying it to exercise and movement and the way that you kind of run with this. It's so, it's so cool to see.

Yeah. Well, thank you for helping give language to what I'd been struggling with for, for so many years. So, yeah. See everybody else in the, in the community. Look forward to continuing to share notes.

Thanks so much.

Thank you all.

All right, we will wrap.