👨‍🏫 Guest Masterclass: Exploring the Bio-Emotive Framework w/ Doug Tataryn

It, it actually got, is actually relatively, you know, I think it's an important part of the context that you understand my journey and how I got here and, and why I do what I do and some of what I bring to the table. I'm, I'm in my 60s, so I grew up at the tail of the 60s, you know, like that sort of golden era of prosperity and one parent could raise a child, you know, a family and everything. And I also caught the end of traditional consciousness as it was kind of embodied in Western culture, which traditional. When I say that I, I mean it developmentally, the kind of rules and roles that your kind of children are to be seen and not heard, respect your elders, that kind of thing. And so for me, emotions were repressed out of my system. They were not part of daily life, which is very different than how we raise kids now. So I started off in that environment and I ended up getting excited about university. I got my PhD in clinical psychology, but the clinical part was sort of an afterthought. I was very interested in research. I'd been into programming computers when they first came out in the 70s. I was on a time sharing option and I, I brought a certain, I, I brought a certain methodological rigor to my clinical practice. When I did end up leaving the university system, I, I did spend 10 years as a research scientist. I had my own lab. And one of the cool things that I got to do was I hooked people up to a polygraph with EEGs.

And.

Heart rate monitors and GSRs and I got to do therapy with them while I could monitor all of their bodily reactions. And the thing that struck me, and this was relatively novel at the time Gary Schwarz was doing this kind of research with biofeedback stuff, was the discrepancy between what people would say, say with their mouth and how their body was responding. So I'd ask them something like, so how did you feel about what happened at work? And I bring up an incident and they'd say, oh, I'm fine, I've gotten over that. But meanwhile, their heart rate just escalated, their GSR dropped, all sorts of things like that would happen. And so it was very clear that their words were not congruent with their bodily experience. And that was fascinating to me. And I started developing this process using Gendelin's focusing. Now how many people are familiar with gendling? Because it's kind of, it's a very physiological based approach to body tension. No, I'm not. The, the six people I have.

I'm Familiar with that? Yeah.

Okay. So one of the nice things about Gendlin, Gendlin's work was that he really helped researchers understand that the body and what the body was going through was different than what the intellect was talking about. And I took Gendlin's focusing process and sort of standardized it as an intervention at first when I had people wired up, but then when I left academia and I started my clinical practice, I spent three years collecting data. Okay. And I literally did everybody with this standard. Gendelin's focusing. And we're trying to find words that resonated with the pain, aches of their body. But I found that as we got close to the pains and aches, often they would start crying. And the crying was never emphasized in Gendelin's work. And I found it fascinating. And so I kept pursuing, instead of the pains and aches in the body, the tears. And I would ask people, does this word capture the essence of your pain? And they may say, yeah, no, it's not quite it. So then we'd keep going, keep going. And eventually I'd find a word where when they said it, they would often start sobbing or it was, you know, and this is a clinical context, so sobbing was. Was very appropriate. And I'd say, does this feel like the essence of your. Your pain? And they'd often say, yes. And so what I do is I'd copy that down so you. You can see how I've got my background in computers and statistics and research. I've spent 10 years as you know, doing research, and then I leave to do clinical. And I continue doing research with my first three years of clinical clients using the standardized process. I wrote the word down. And I just. For anyone who knows, I don't want you to answer if you know about my work and these core feelings, but I called those words core feelings. Initially, I called them irreducible words because they couldn't go any further. They were the essence of their pain. I did that for three years. How many words do you think I ended up writing down that were the essence of people's pains? Just give me some guesses out loud or in the chat. Well, 6 or 7. 12.

5.

You're in the right neighborhood. I, in my first year, I got about five. In the second year, I got another two or three. And then the final year, I got one more. So I ended up with nine irreducible words or nine core feelings. And that led me to go like, what's going on with these feelings? And I spent some time And I organized them and realized that these seem to be the way our emotional system is biologically programmed to pick up our interpersonal status, where we fit in the group, and what our relational significance is to the group. Nine core feelings that kind of tell us where we stand relative to our pack or our group. And I believe that our emotional brain is actually biologically wired to pick up these dimensions in the same way our eyes are biologically wired to pick up sort of three different wavelengths and combine them into all the different colors we see. So all of our different emotional and feeling experiences seem to come from these nine core feelings. So I ended up calling those words core feelings and then calling the other words that were often coming up that were feeling oriented but not the essence. They turned out to be interpersonal feeling words. And I'll just make that distinction later. And then you notice I haven't talked about emotions yet. The final piece of the puzzle that I put together that kind of forms the essence of the bioimotive framework is that interpersonal feelings cause core feelings which then cause emotions. So that's a very different framework than most systems with which don't make a distinction between feelings and emotions. And once you make that distinction, it really illuminates how we see the world and how we see our interpersonal and emotional and psychological challenges very, very differently. So what I just covered in the bio emotive kind of development also kind of covers my career from, you know, interested in the mind researcher, academic, leaving to become a clinician, bringing my research statistical mind to my clinical practice, and then doing the same thing that clinicians have been doing for a hundred plus years, but seeing it very differently. I, I parsed what was going on in the therapeutic encounter very differently than most. And it's kind of generalized to a general theory of emotions and our culture and understanding why some of the chronic problems we have, like chronic anger, obsessive compulsive anxiety disorders, depression, addictions, once you see them through the lens of emotions and emotional processing, or lack of emotional processing, you see it all very, very differently. Okay, so that's, I think, an important foundation. The other thing that I've brought to the table that's become more important now that I don't have to hide it. And this is an interesting cultural thing for anyone under 30 or 40. When I first went to university, I had to hide the fact that I'd been meditating for four or five or six years, since I was 15. I couldn't speak about that without being dismissed as a nutcase. Someone who was into fringe, weird stuff. Just like yoga was fringe and weird. So I've been meditating. It's been a major part of my life since I was 15. I'm in my 60s now. And so that's also formed a lot of the large, the bigger frameworks that I now put the bio emotive framework within. So that's a bit of an overview of me and my journey and how I've come to where I am and some of the main points of the biomotive. So why don't we just clarify anything about that before I talk more about.

How to apply this and what it means to people?

Any questions about what I've spoken about so far?

Yeah, I actually have a question. Doug Johnson. How does. Sorry, if we could mute everyone. Yeah. How does the map that you just described or articulated overlap with, say, Lisa Feldman Barrett's idea that sensations plus context or story equals emotions? It seems like there's a fair bit of overlap there. But you're using the word feelings instead of sensations. Maybe. Could you perhaps clarify that?

Now, Lisa Barrett is also the one that says emotions are completely socially constructed.

If I remember right.

Yep, yep.

Yeah. And that's. I differ on with her on that. I. I really believe that these four emotions and these nine feelings are biologically wired into us. And I, you know, that's a big debate. But her notion of sensations, the easiest way to explain it is most people are only aware of their emotions after they're showing up in their body. Okay. Because by definition, emotions dance in the body, and they usually show up in the torso, belly and chest are the major places. But the area that breathes is where you usually feel your emotions. And there is a lot going on in your system before it shows up in your body. And the idea that we take the sensations of the body and place it in a context and put a narrative on it to explain our emotional experience to me is like trying to explain an entire book by reading the prologue or the acknowledgments that missed the entire story that's been happening behind the scenes. And so I just. There's a huge gap between how she sees this, the world, and how I.

See the world there.

Yeah, interesting.

I'll say something about feelings in general, which is there's different types of feelings. So we can have somatic feelings, we can have sexual feelings, we can have appetitive feelings, and we can have emotional feelings.

All right?

And the commonality is that we've got brain modules doing most of the processing, and then Dumping the results into consciousness or into our intellect so that we can then say, I'm feeling, feeling hungry, but we don't know everything that's gone on that makes me have that understanding that I need to eat. And it's very similar with the emotional brain. Most of us aren't connected enough to the emotional system to know where the feelings are coming from or why they're causing the emotions to dance until you start doing this work, and then it literally wakes up the sleeping part of our sleep system, and we start enlivening it and experiencing the world very differently because it's awake and processing. And I can explain that more later as we do the exercises, because it'll.

It'Ll make more sense.

Yeah, thank you for that. One more question, and then we'll come to you. Pablo, you have on your website that you spent a lot of time asking the question why spiritually advanced people still say and do dumb things. I thought that might be, given your meditation background, that might be an interesting one to, to speak to. What have you learned about that question? What conclusions have you come to?

The easiest answer that we've come up with, and I, I, I would say I did this in parallel with the integral community in the late 90s and early 200s. Well, probably the mid-200s is when it started coming out. Wilbur started talking about, it's, it's not enough to just wake up. You have to grow up. And then a few years later is like, oh, you have to clean up, right? And there was this idea, and I, I took that, and it was just kind of being tossed out randomly. And I took it seriously, spent a lot of time with it, and I decided there are actually four facets to the human evolution, and they kind of converge like a pyramid. You can start on either facet and go really high, but you don't have to get all four of them high. But the higher you get, the easier it is to do the other work. So I say there's four facets to human transformation. Waking up or enlightenment is the one that's traditionally emphasized by spiritual communities. Okay. And what happens when you wake up and you leave the monastery is that all of your growing up, lack of growing up and lack of cleaning up come to the fore, and you end up with all sorts of weird power dynamics and sexual scandals and financial scandals and everything, because you didn't do those other dimensions of work that are independent of waking up. So I say, and this is, I differ on the fourth facet than Ken Wilber. I say waking up, growing up, cleaning up, and looking around. They say wake up, grow up, clean up, and show up. No, I see showing up as a developmental part of growing up. And there's good reasons to believe that looking around is actually a little closer to the essence of integral theory because it maps onto the four quadrants better. And you can use it to explain the psyche. And that's getting into a different theoretical framework than just the bioimotive. But like literally, those four facets give you a deep explanation of the human psyche and why spiritual people still do dumb things.

I love that. Just a pity that it doesn't ending up. It would be. I'm sure it'd be.

And yet there's a good reason why it doesn't. And, and if I were giving that talk, I could explain it, but.

Okay, beautiful, we're gonna focus.

So I do all of my cleaning up work or bioimotive work within the context of the four facets.

Ah, got it.

Okay, got it. And often when people do the cleaning up work, their waking up happens much more quickly or they'll start having phenomena that doesn't usually happen in the waking up thing for like years more of contemplation or meditation starts happening because they've cleaned their system so deeply that they sort of pop up to, in, in Chuladasa's TMI stage, they'll pop up to level eight pretty quickly.

Okay.

Whereas people have been stuck at levels.

Two and three, stages two and three.

For years until they do the cleanup.

Work and then they pop up very quickly. And there's good reason for that.

Got it. Okay, so one more question and then, Pablo, I promise I'll start hogging, I'll stop hogging the mic and you can ask your question. But there's so much alive for me right now, so I think my curiosity is around, let's say engaging in the work of cleaning up. Like the way that I hear that is becoming more emotionally fluid and becoming comfortable in emotional processes such that you can in my language kind of surface these incomplete reflexes that have basically been buffered in the nervous system since early childhood, sometimes, you know, even in the womb, pre verbal stages. And that by doing that we are releasing a lot of kind of pent up energy in the system, which in your language can then contribute to the process of waking up because there's more energy available and less like stuckness. Does that approximately map on to how you think about it or.

Yes, that's one dimension of what, why this happened. I can give a really quick kind of metaphor Analogy. Let's suppose you have 10 units of life energy. When you wake up in the morning and you want to accomplish some goal like entrepreneurial, what's a good goal that, that you have? Or you know that sometimes you don't bring your hundred percent to what's a good goal? We'll get a little experiential here.

If you don't trail running with my dog in the afternoon at a certain.

Certain time, do you sometimes not do it as much as you'd like to?

Yeah, yeah, it's fair to say.

Okay. And you can also apply this to anything where you want to do something like you want to lose weight or you want to develop a product or write a book. Okay. But you find yourself not doing it as much. So 10 units of life energy and it wants to move in this direction. Okay. But if you have unresolved emotional issues, like let's suppose you want to write a book. And you know, if you do that, a lot of people are going to hear your voice, but you have an emotional thing that says, well, I'm insignificant and no one really values what I have to say. And that's a deep core feeling belief. So now you're trying to go forward and you meet your emotional resistance. And suppose that that impression is three units of energy in there when you tune into it. Like there's three units of energy saying, no, no, you can't do that, you're insignificant and no one will value what you have to say. So now your 10 units meets three units and it's going to take three units of energy to overcome those three units of pushing back. So 10 minus three minus three is, you know, that's six. So you've got four units of life energy that you're moving forward with now because you've got this unconscious emotional resistance of 3 units of life energy. So your 10 has now become 4. And if you do the cleaning up work and reduce that by even one unit, that means that when it meets resistance, it's only two, takes two to neutralize it. Now you've got six units of energy moving forward. So you've just gone from 4 to 6, right. Which is a 50% increase by just taking one third of that resistance away emotionally. And that's why cleaning up is so powerful. Similarly, when people want to meditate, I say if your mind chatter comes back three or four times, you keep doing the, you know, I don't want to think about you, I'm returning to the object of meditation. But then you start thinking about your Boss. Or you think about the fight that you had, or you think about whatever. If it happens three or four times, I say make that the object of. Of concentration and ask yourself, what am I feeling that would make me think these thoughts? What am I feeling that would make me think these thoughts within? Anyone who learns the nadura technique finds the core of what's happening. They do their crying and processing, they resolve that issue and they come back to the meditation and all of a sudden there's no mind chatter. So they can deepen really deeply onto their goal. So it's a very similar resistance cleared out. Now there's no resistance.

Yeah, that's such a helpful metaphor and analogy. But you mentioned you kind of brought beliefs into. Into that explanation. And I'm wondering, how do you view the interplay between. Like, is it that we learned as a kind of strategy to keep ourselves safe, maybe in early childhood, that certain emotions weren't safe or weren't allowed? Like, it's common for, say, anger or sadness are two emotions that are typically, we learn in certain situations it's not safe to feel this because love will be. Or belonging will be withdrawn. And so it sounds like there's some component of rewiring where there's an allowing of this emotion to come through which then has the cascading effect of allowing that energy to become available for what, you know, a specific goal or intention.

Right. So there's the. My boss, my daughter teaches the nadura process and she came up with the idea of the. That emotions are the body's natural healing process and that we have natural emotional cycles.

And if we don't complete that them.

We get stuck in loops which involve chronic tension. And that always takes individual energy way down. Right. As soon as you've got unresolved emotions and you haven't completed the emotional cycle, yeah, you're carrying that burden. That's the baggage. A lot of people are talking about PTSD nowadays and childhood or complex ptsd. I have a definition from this framework that illuminates so much about that process. And. And I'll. It's a. It's what I call a pith teaching. And you might want to write this down because it's. It'll unpack the more you think about it. But it's basically any intense interpersonal encounter. Okay. Any intense interpersonal encounter that is not fully experienced and expressed will become part of your sense of self or worldview instead of something that happened to you. So what that says is that anything, no matter how big or small, if you don't fully experience and express it, it's going to shape who you think you are or how you think the world works. That's what I talk about, beliefs. And until you fully experience and express it, it's going to distort your perception of reality according to that thing. So if you were almost bitten by a dog when you were young and you don't fully experience and express it, you will have a fear of dogs. And you will think there are dogs on every corner of the block when you're walking down the road that could jump out of those. It will radically distort your perception of reality until you resolve it, finish the cycle. On the other hand, if you're almost bitten by a dog as a child and you fully experience and express it, you don't have a fear of phobia of dogs because you pried it out of your system. And you get that it was just an instance as opposed to the way the world is. And yes, sometimes you can't remember the dog. And I actually have. In the early 80s, I wrote a paper and I think Johnny saw that. What you didn't see was that I kept it in the original version that I wrote it in the 1980s, which was on a time sharing unit with really weird font and stuff, because that was the leading edge of computers. And it's called the muscular interference theory of repression. And it talks about how our neurology is such that muscle tension interferes with emotional experience. And if you don't want to experience your emotions, the tension will stop that from happening, but the result will be that you'll walk around with chronically tense muscles and autonomic activation. And, you know, I give whole lectures on that nuance. But that's, that's part of why you can actually not remember the dog. Because when you start to remember something about the dog, the muscles tense up and they eliminate your ability to think. And then that memory goes away.

Goes away.

Wow, that's, that's beautifully articulated. And I, I really love that pithy line that you shared. Yeah, there's so much truth here. Okay, so I want to get to Pablo. You've had your hand up for ages. Do you want to share your burning question and then we'll come to ocean?

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Johnny. Thank you, Doug. It's been amazing to watch my question transform as the conversation has been happening. So what's alive for me right now in terms of a question is I've been noticing that for perhaps two years or so. I've been Going through these spontaneous like, trembles or shaking. And I'm still making sense out of it till this day. And right now the cutting edge of what I think is happening is my nervous system is releasing a stored energy. And that sword energy can be seen or reflected in any sort of interaction. So, for example, as both of you have been speaking, I've noticed that my backs are shaking and even my leg has gone into like a lot of shaking a couple times. And I allow that as much as I can and it's becoming more of a constant in my life. And I would love to hear your perspective on that, Doug, as to how it's connected with my emotional brain and how it's connected to my system releasing stored information that's been wanting to come forth.

Yeah, beautiful. And, and I appreciate the question for people of meditation practices. And I'll use Chula Das tmi because he has the stages nicely in stages three. So when you sit down to meditate and you focus on your internal experience, it's more likely you're going to start connecting into the physiological and emotional stuff that you've been being repressed. Okay, so at stages three and at stage and seven, there's phenomena that happen that's very predictable where your body starts shaking and it's called pt, right? And it's a release and you're supposed to just let it happen. And often it happens when you're going into jhanas or deep states of bliss and high emotional senses of like, well, bliss and ecstasy. My experience when I've gone into Jhnas and I have the PT is that even though I've got this beautiful tears of joy and ecstasy happening, I can sense that there's repressed material and memories also discharging at the same time. But they're meeting so much bliss stuff it's hard to actually remember or, or make contact with the negative memories, the negative experiences. But the body is shaking and releasing it. And if you really move into it, you'll find that you start crying that, that, that it, it's the full release. And that's something that I can't emphasize enough, that a proper emotional response involves crying. And ideally it's a full crying. And I say ideally because then you know, your system is loose and the muscle tension is let go and you have a healthy system, but you can also heal without full body crying. And I've got five stages of crying that we don't need to get into. But I would say that what you're experiencing with your physiological shaking is the physiological component of emotional release. And with any luck, the exercises that we do today will tune you into the emotional and feeling components so that you can climb on board and facilitate that process and help it along more, more quickly and deeply. The. The other thing. The other thing is there's a wisdom that you get by finding the feelings and the emotions in the cropped traumas of your body. When you can experience and articulate it, you gain insight into your history and the human condition, and it makes you wise. And now you can share that wisdom with other beings who are also suffering. But you don't get the wisdom if you don't find the feelings and the feeling beliefs and the articulation. And I've seen people do deep releases from energetic or massage type practices or even psychedelics, but they didn't get the opportunity to go deeply into the feelings and express it. And so they can't talk about it at the level that they could have. So they've. To me, they've lost an opportunity for wisdom and insight and sharing and. And to bring something to the community. You know.

What you're saying? Doug is landing well. And what I'm hearing is. And it's something that's been not present in my experience is usually these somatic releases come without any feelings or emotions, and it's just like they're in black and white. But what I'm hearing is that there's a possibility to tap into the feelings and the emotions will just. And it will add another dimension from which I can extract more information.

Yes. I'll give a quick example of something where I. I worked with a healer, actually, who is very well known in the herbal industry to, you know, helping lots of people. And we were talking and he was talking about something that happened between.

Between him and his, you know, partner.

Where she would say something and he would react with anger, right? And it was just like boom boom. But as we talked and I got him to like, find feelings and interpersonal feelings, what we found was. Was like, boom. She said this. It made me feel dismissed and neglected. You know, that made me feel insignificant. I would have cried, except I didn't feel vulnerable in front of her when she's being like that. And so I attacked her and got angry. So that experience of boom boom, once we nadured it deconstructed into five steps, and it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I think that's what's happening now is you've got boom boom and the nadura. And this kind of tuning in will Find that there's more things going on. Part of what I talk about is cultural alexithymia, where our entire culture has been trained to not process feelings and emotions. Right from the traditional times that I talked about where it was literally I was spanked, and I've heard other people where, I'm not going to stop spanking you until you stop crying, you know, or the other universal one that I hear from all cultures around the world, you want to cry? I'll give you something to cry about. So alexithymia means no words or moods or emotions, and we don't have words because we, repeat, suppress those emotions. That was traditional, even modern. When you're into achievement, they get in the way. Your. Your feelings get in the way of performance, and so we neglect them. It's not till postmodernism, which is the era we just came into in the last decade or so, where feelings are embraced, but we don't have a language for feelings. So we have all these people with open emotional systems, and they don't know how to deal with them. And I think that's part of why we have so much, quote, ADHD and volatility and inability to pay attention, because they literally have so much emotional energy going on, and they've never been trained how to channel it or resolve it, that it's just constantly popping up and we've got this frenetic kind of reality that we're all living in. As you can see, I could talk for hours on any one of these subjects, and I'm just going to have to rein it in a little bit, and I'll go on to the next question. I hope that was helpful.

Thank you. Mind blown.

This is so great. Okay, let's take the question from Max, and then we'll drop into a Nidera process after that. So, Max, if you want to come to the stage.

Yeah, sure. And, you know, similar to Pablo, a lot of my questions have been explained and articulated over the last couple of minutes, but I'll ask it anyway. So for one, I posted it in the. In the chat that, you know, there have been, I think, a lot of repressed emotions for me, and which manifests itself somatically as an inability to take a full breath or tension in the chest. And what you said just reminded me of something one of my favorite writers and philosophers, Charles Eisenstein, has said about integrating grief. Integrating grief is important, you know, to realize the preciousness of what has been lost. So I get that on a intellectual level, but I'm wondering How I can somatically feel that and understand that, and maybe that's what the five stages of crying is or whatever process that was before.

Can you be more specific on the question you have?

Yeah, I. My question is how do I somatically integrate Greece so that I can take a fuller breath?

Somatically integrate grief. So the simple answer is if you really feel the grief, and grief is an interpersonal word and you need to unpack it into the other interpersonal and core feelings, get in touch with the sense of loss or maybe emptying it, and cry. The act of crying will complete the emotional cycle and your body will stop repressing and being tight and you will automatically somatically release and be able to.

Take a deep breath.

So you're feeling the symptoms of repression from not having, you know, this is my superficial take from what you've said, from not having fully integrated the grieving process. There's some part of it that you haven't fully resolved or cried yourself through. And I'm going to share something like, I've worked with people who have lost children or siblings or parents that they're very close to, and I'm always astounded at how this really simple exercise will.

Have a profound effect on them.

And I came up with it almost accidentally and now I. It's like a template that I use.

So if.

If once I've established a relationship with somebody and I get a sense of where we're in this grieving process, they're in. And it can be for the loss.

Of a loved one or for the loss of a career that didn't happen, or a pet.

But to literally for loved ones, say the name of the person.

Say Veronica.

Veronica is dead and I'm never going.

To see her again.

And that will often bring them to tears, sobbing. Even though their mom or their dad.

Or their child died six months or.

12 months in one case, 10 years ago. But it wasn't until they said it out loud that the system started the processing and updating because it's always been just this repressed, fleeting thought or feeling that they would never actually translate into actual reality. And I get people to say things out loud because it bypasses the repressive mechanism between the intellect and the emotional brain and it goes in the ears and it gets processed by the physical brain and then the emotional brain. So by saying feelings and feeling beliefs out loud, the direct impact of react, the reality of those things can you have the opportunity to experience them, Whereas if you just think them, I actually did research in the 80s on how we have repressive mechanisms between the different hemispheres of the brain that selectively stop.

Material going through depending on the emotional valence of it. And.

And that's, you know, part of, I.

Think, what's often going on.

So if there's a somatic inability to breathe, it's because you haven't completed the emotional expression cycle. And once you do that, your body will relax. It's one of the biggest spontaneous expressions when people have a good cry or when they resolve something. They say, I can't believe how my body feels. It's like the weight of the world.

Is off my shoulders or some other metaphor like that.

Johnny?

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to add briefly. I'll link in, in the chat. There's a. An episode I recorded with my mentor at Dangerfield about sort of specifically the linking connection between repressed emotions and breathing rhythms. And he's actually doing research over in Bali right now with brain scanners, various machines, in an attempt to map how different breathing rhythms will almost be indicators as to which emotions or which feelings have been repressed. And by bringing breath into those spaces, it elicits whatever that repressed sensation or feeling is and gives you a chance to complete it. And I've witnessed this firsthand hundreds of times myself as well, so I wanted to share that resource too.

And that's also why rebirthing practices and the things like the WIM HOF method will often release deep trauma from the.

Body and bring about catharsis.

And yeah, what I suggest is if you are getting released, that you try and find the feelings and the core.

Feelings in there so that you actually.

Understand what's was being repressed and what.

Those memories meant to you.

Yeah, beautiful. And I'd add to that, I probably wouldn't recommend either WIM HOF or Rebirthing because they tend to not give sufficient capacity to relax and integrate and downshift on the other side, which in my view is required for full integration of whatever it was that was released. Doug might have different opinions on that.

Totally. I don't. I don't generally use it because it's almost so violent, but there are gentle breathing practices that I have sometimes used.

When people are shocked.

Yeah, beautiful. Okay, well, this feels like a great time for maybe guiding us into one of these processes, Doug. Okay, how does that sound?

Yeah, so one of the things that I talked about in terms of cleaning.

Up.

Is we all bring distortions to the world. And those distortions are either about who.

I am and what My value or lack of value is.

And whether the world is dangerous or safe or all sorts of other variations, we have distortion. And that's why we tend to do and have very similar experiences with very different people. You know, why you might notice in your own life or in other people's lives that they tend to always attract or get into the same dynamics and they're always hurtful, dynamic. What we're going to do is what I call a core feeling psychograph. And it'll give you an opportunity to get a sense of what the core feelings are at your system that may be distorting your perception of reality and how you feel you fit into the world.

Okay.

And if you've been working with Johnny, I assume that you're very good at sort of like closing your eyes and going introspective. So I'd like you to. To do that and just breathe and kind of tune into your feelings. Just what's it. And when I say feelings, I don't necessarily mean emotional feelings. I mean just the feeling of being in your body. You know, everyone talked when they first got here about what they were feeling. Compare how you're feeling now to those.

Initial three words that you had. What's shifted?

Are you heavier now than you were?

Are you more excited? Are you scared?

Is your body more tense or less tense? What's your breath like?

Are you breathing into your belly? Is it all up in your chest? Are both systems breathing together, belly and chest?

So just sort of honor state that you're in and get a sense of your baseline. Now what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you nine words that you're going to say out loud.

And it might be good, Johnny, for you to turn off Max's mic or anyone else's mic.

And you need to say it out loud.

And.

Feel the response in your body. Remember, I say that especially when you're first learning this process. We, we find out about our emotions and our feelings after they've showed up in the body. So we're going to use our body as an instrument. And of these nine core words, you may only respond strongly to one of.

Them.

Or you may respond strongly to three of them or to six of them.

We don't know which ones or how many. But what this is is an opportunity to get a sense of what's unresolved, what's deep in the core of my.

Being and my personality, what's my primary.

Distortions, how big the reaction is going to be in your body. Doesn't necessarily reflect how big the distortion is because you may have a lot of repressive mechanisms that automatically keep your.

Body from getting too upset.

So relative activation is going to be important.

Okay.

And we don't know, but I'm going to have you use a 10 point scale. So zero means absolutely no activation at all. And 10 means so much activation, I.

Would be sobbing right now if it was socially appropriate or if I could, if I weren't so repressed. Okay?

And it may be socially appropriate to.

Just sob here on your screen. You can leave it on or you.

Can turn it off.

You know, I'm not quite sure what the culture is with this group that you guys are going through.

So just be open and curious about.

How you respond to these words.

And then I'm going to ask you to open your eyes and write down.

The number or type it on your computer afterwards just so we can keep track. Okay.

I'm going to do them in a certain order, but it would help if you wrote the.

The feeling down just so that you know.

So I'm going to give you the word to say. And I may elaborate a little bit.

On what the word means. Because sometimes our emotional systems don't really understand the words they haven't been programmed to understand.

That's the feeling.

And that takes time.

So the first word we're going to use is. And to say it out loud.

I feel insignificant. I feel insignificant.

And insignificant just means you don't register anywhere.

People don't notice you. You don't mean anything to them. They don't care.

When you're walking down the street, you.

Might step on ants and not even notice. That's because they're insignificant to you. I feel insignificant.

And it doesn't have to make sense. Okay, you, you might have a feeling of insignificance even though you can say.

Well, no, there's lots of people who care about me.

We don't really care about what the intellect or the rational mind has to say. We're just trying to give this time.

And space to the emotional system. I feel insignificant. Write down a number between 0 and 10 to see how much activation or resonance it has.

Going to move on to the next one.

I feel alone in the world. I feel alone. Say it out loud. I feel alone. You know, I'm not close to anybody in life. I feel alone. See how your body reacts to hearing those words.

The next one is I feel inadequate.

I feel inadequate. That means there's something that you believe you should be able to do, but you're not able to do it. You're not doing it. It's within the expectations, but you're just not showing up. You're not doing it. I feel inadequate. I try, but I just don't quite have the skill to do.

Now, if you start yawning while you're.

Doing this, that's often a way of dissipating energy. You're getting emotionally activated. And the yawning can be a way of kind of dissipating that energy so that it doesn't intensify.

So see if you can just notice.

What happens if you don't yawn, you know, and just try and feel more deeply into what's happening. The other word will go for is I feel lost. I feel lost.

That means you have no vision or way of organizing the world, no way.

To make sense of what's happening, no direction to go in. Often you'll feel very alone, but that's not necessarily so. Just hang out with I feel lost. Write down the amount of activation that you have. Now I'm going to have you say.

Out loud.

I feel worthless. I feel worthless.

And again, your feelings don't have to be rational.

They're not rational, but they're lawful.

And that's why we get to work.

With them and clear them because they're lawful. They're not random, but they're not rational. So don't impose rationality on them.

Just follow the resonance.

I feel worthless.

See how your body responds.

If might even be enough that you get tears going to move on to the next one. I feel helpless. I feel helpless. Often people relate to feeling trapped and helpless where helpless and out of control feel helpless. So those six core feelings are very, very primary. They're what we need to understand about our relationship to the group that we're part of in order to know what to expect from people, particularly in times of crisis. And I'll go through that later after we've done more of the experiential part.

There's another three that tend to act.

On the other six. Okay, but there's still core feeling.

So the first one is a sense of loss.

You know, to feel like you've just lost something important. I feel a loss.

And this is grieving.

The loss of a loved one, the loss of a close connection. I feel a loss. Now, if you lived with that loss for a long time, you may experience it as an emptiness. I feel empty. I feel an emptiness.

So just check out which of those feels more resonant.

I feel a loss. I Feel empty. The next one.

This was the last word that came.

Up when I was doing the core finding the Core Feelings back in the early 2000s. And it's bad. And it's always a bad something. Like, I feel like a bad person. I feel like a bad brother. I feel like a bad son. I feel like a bad daughter. I feel like a bad mother. I feel like a bad father, feel like a bad friend.

So it's not bad as in I.

Don'T feel good, but it's like, I'm a bad person. I'm not doing what I should to really honor this relationship. I feel like a bad person. And you can explore which of the nouns you should put after that to get the most resonance.

And often when you say it, I.

Feel like a bad person, memories will pop up of where you were being bad, and it'll be clear, oh, I'm a bad son. You know, I didn't visit my mom as much as I should have. I left her alone too long.

So the.

The next one is hopeless. I feel hopeless. And hopeless is different than helpless in that helpless is in the immediate moment I can't do anything. Whereas hopeless means that I believe at a deep level that this is not going to change over time. It's hopeless. This is always going to be like this. I feel hopeless.

Remember to say the words out loud.

Feel hopeless, and then mark down what kind of resonance you have. So that's our little adventure through the core psychograph I'm going to give you. No, I'm gonna actually take a little break from the exercise. We'll answer questions and you can share some of your experiences, and then I'll give you some nuances to explore in the. These core feelings. Okay, so, Johnny, do you want to coordinate some questions here and maybe even sharing.

I'd love to hear before questions how some of you reacted to this, if anything happened that surprised you, or do.

You want to just share your experience? I'd like that feedback.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Doug. That was beautiful. I'll briefly share my experience in the sense of. For me, helplessness was something that came up, and it's something that I've been working with through breath work in the last two or three months. And it's. It's felt like this, like a deep fear and. And something that I think I've prided myself or my identity on being. On having a lot of agency and having courage and having these things. And for me, helplessness felt like it would negate that. And at the same time, I've. I found that by really falling into that, there has been this kind of freedom and beauty as well. So that, that still had a little bit of resonance, a little bit of charge for me when you, when you said it. But I'd love to hear from. From some of you guys in the group as well. Jin Yin, my apologies if I name incorrectly. Got it.

That's all right.

Yeah, this exercise was good. Although I was a little confused because I definitely had a sense of, oh, this resonates like 7 out of 10 for me. But the 10 out of 10 you said it was like you would cry or something if you could. I didn't feel it so strongly, but it still felt like a 7 out of 10 level of truth. And I was wondering if I should still go with the like, oh, I feel this very strongly, even if I don't literally have my body reacting.

So you just picked up a nuance. When I talk about resonance, there's two areas of resonance. One is emotional resonance, where you'll actually.

Find yourself crying, often not understanding why, but the body will just start crying.

So that's the emotional resonance. And then the other resonance is truthiness.

How true it feels.

Even if you don't have a strong.

Emotional reaction, you can feel the depth of truth in the statement. That's particularly true for feeling beliefs because they're a little bit more complex. So, you know, do you.

Do you mind sharing what it is.

That felt so true but didn't have a lot of emotional resonance?

Yeah, actually, this is. I was going to ask a question about this because in general, I've been feeling kind of numb in the last few weeks, and I was going to ask what to do about that. But in general, a lot of these feelings, my reaction to them is naturally, like, for instance, feeling alone or lost is a big one, or hopeless. The feeling is just like no feeling at all.

Yeah, that's. I would say that you've. Repression is an automated process to shut down the emotional response when we don't feel we have the resources to deal.

With the emotional response and happens outside of conscious awareness.

And so it's usually started getting trained.

In when we're children.

And it can be quite a barrier to learn how to let go of.

The repressive to tech tendencies.

So you're recognizing the truth of these statements, but I would say your body.

Is numbing out and not allowing it to actually flow through the system.

And I'm saying repression. It could also be dissociation and other.

Things, but those nuances don't matter here. The.

The thing that happens is when you start acknowledging the feelings, you're literally teaching your body that you're not as afraid.

As you used to be.

And sometimes it helps to even say, thank you so much for keeping this.

Under control for all those years, but.

I'm ready now to take it on and feel it. You can relax and then do things like deep breathing or meditations and allow yourself to touch into the memories or the feelings that are scary. And you can move into it for even just 10 seconds and then come back out. And by going in, feeling it and not being overwhelmed, you're teaching your body and your system that it's okay to feel it, that you're different than when.

You were a child or when these.

Happened, and they were totally overwhelming. And that'll help kind of shift the forces and the motivations to keep the repression happening all the time.

Okay, so to sort of coax out the emotions. What do you. You're saying meditation and going back into.

Contemplation on the feelings and just explore, you know, even to find out, like, when I say I feel worthless, what's.

The response to that?

Like, it scares me or I shut down, you know, just to start opening up the cracks of that moment to moment experience and deconstruct it with curiosity. You don't want to, like, push through like a bull, because now you're just creating too much tension. You want to gently relax and tell.

The system it's safe to let go.

Now.

I'm a big girl. I'm a big boy, you know, and I'm willing to handle this kind of consciously.

Now.

This is also why things like psilocybin.

And breath work and bioenergetics, they all.

Help to release the repressive mechanisms. Right. When I first was working with my wife, we were doing sacred movements where.

We moved our bodies in a certain.

Pattern for hours at a time, like, literally hours. And so you push through muscle fatigue, and you push through sinews of muscles that had been tight and they started releasing, and one by one, everyone started.

Sobbing just from those simple exercises.

That was part of why I started researching and wrote the.

The muscular interference theory of repression.

Okay.

If that's helpful.

Beautiful. Thank you. Ocean, would you like to share your share your question?

Yes, I kind of forgotten what it was. Oh, yeah, that was. That was a really powerful practice for me, and it felt really significant to be able to start putting words on the bodily sensations. And I've been doing a lot of somatic work in my therapy and more so following the sensations as they come up and kind of tracking where they're going and then speaking sort of from the sensation and following where it wants to go. And doing that with a word felt really powerful to say. Okay. When I'm feeling like, for example, with the word lost, I got a lot of tingling in my arms. And so when I. When I'm in the therapy sessions and I. That that's quite a common thing for me as I start getting this tingling sensation in my arms, it's then knowing I can now start to kind of map that into the therapy and start to give that a bit of shape. Yeah. And it was really interesting for me how my question earlier was about the crying. And I cry all the time and I'm really easily brought to tears. Like, probably like four of those I was crying on. And I'm still feeling that kind of activation now. And I can really feel the. It's interesting. Some of them I started to feel an activation and usually it's like lower in the abdomen and then there's a very quick repression. Like, I can really feel that. So it's not really a question. It's just more sharing that experience. And I'm wondering, sort of, I'm sure you'll go into this, but just wondering how to then start kind of releasing those that may be a bit harder.

To feel if you can cry easily.

Like, wow, that is so wonderful. Okay.

It's so much easier to work with.

That than people who are so repressed that crying is a momentous achievement. It happens once every five years or something.

There's a challenge to crying all the.

Time, which is that you're open and volatile.

And what you need to do to.

Make it healthy crying is to put the words and express the feelings while you're crying crying, and then you'll resolve and heal.

But if you cry without knowing the.

Words, it won't integrate and you can't resolve it.

And.

Yeah, the.

So for you, the important thing will be finding out the words. Like, why does lost resonate so deeply?

What's going on with Lost that digs.

So deeply and that, you know, what's the opposite of lost?

It's to have vision and purpose so you can explore what's going on in my life that I feel like I have no vision and purpose, and is.

There a hopelessness to that? And just explore all the feelings and whatever brings tears, follow it and find words that express those energies and then.

You'Ll find that something gets resolved in.

Doing so, you'll have either a deep insight or you'll have a. A shift. Shift in understanding or you'll realize the fallacy, but at an experiential level, not at an intellectual level. And then you've made peace with it.

And you're a different person.

The nice thing about this work is that once you've resolved something, it doesn't come back, which is different than overriding it, you know, and then as soon as you take the pressure off, it pops back. You know, once you've resolved something, it's not there anymore.

Thank you. Yeah, that's really helpful. So, yeah, I do get quite annoyed sometimes. I'm like. I feel like all I do is cry and nothing is changing. So.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really helpful. A word to it.

Yeah.

Thank you, Ocean.

Beautiful.

Thanks. Yeah.

Okay, so we've got quite a few questions coming up. Doug, I want to be respectful of your time. Do you have a hard start?

Stop.

Or how many. How much more time do we have?

1:30 would be good for me. I can do another 15 minutes.

Okay. Okay, great. Well then. Then let's take a couple more questions. Adam, you've got your hand raised currently.

Hey there. I have a question about any guidance you can offer for being able to tap into this clarity or crying or emotional fluidity on your own. I found a lot of success being able to break through blockages and open up in connection with a therapist or a coach or whatever it might be. But oftentimes I'll feel stagnated on my own. Similar to, I think, something Ocean described as like feeling like that initial opening and then closing without having someone to co regulate with.

Yeah, this is a. A challenging conundrum. Most. Most of our wounds are interpersonal, and so if we feel insignificant and alone, we can cry and express that and maybe have a shift. But we're also all alone and there's no one there sharing it with us. And so we're not actually getting an impression that we're connected and cared for and we're not getting an impression that we're significant and someone's taking the time. So there's. Ideally, you do this with other people and you have the opportunity now for healing experiences. Having said that, sometimes we can't do that and we have to do it for circumstances or whatever, feelings of vulnerability on our own. My experience is that you can move from like a negative state, I feel insignificant, to neutral. And if you're with someone, you can then move to a positive feeling of significance. So we can do a lot of Clearing with worthless and insignificant and alone. And when you're doing that alone, sometimes you'll have memories of times that you were held or people really cared. And there can be enough to leave now, strong impressions. That's the bigger context of your question. But I'm missing the actual point of your question, which is that you have a hard time making contact with the.

Feelings when you're on your own.

So some of it might be because you don't want to go there without somebody to hold you, provide a container.

To make you feel safe and secure.

And loved or significant, valued, whatever. But the other thing is almost more structural. I. You may have noticed I talked about the physical brain, the emotional brain and the intellectual brain. So I love this triune brain thing that Paul McLean talked about in the 80s that he did like 30 years of research to come up with the model that we actually have three major modules in our brain and they can all work fairly independently. Our consciousness emphasizes intellectual relationships to people and the world. And it's harder to get into our emotional brains. That's why I use the exercise of saying it out loud. And did you guys notice when you said it out loud that it felt differently than when you heard it or. Well, sometimes hearing it is enough, but when you think it. That's because we're in our intellect. We want to get into the emotional brain. And so it's like. Because emotions dance in the body, taking time to say lay down and breathe and be in your body and to stop thinking so much will start bringing about more of an emotional dominance. And feeling your body, which is where.

Your emotions are going to dance, you'll.

Be more sensitive to them.

It's.

It's sort of like what can you do to feel open and vulnerable and connected to yourself emotionally? When you're with somebody and you're saying words, you're taking a deep ownership and sharing.

So it makes it emotional automatically when.

You say those words to yourself. You don't necessarily have to take that deep ownership.

You can do it intellectually.

That's why eye gazing can be so powerful. When you're with someone and you start gazing in their eyes, it bypasses all the intellectual filters and kind of ways of being. And that emotional insecurity or deep sense of connection starts being more salient. So you know, it's easier to do this work with one or more people, but you can do it yourself. If you're aware that what you need to do is become open and vulnerable.

And connected to your emotional system, it's very different than thinking your way through these pro. These feelings. Okay.

Thank you for that.

Yeah, thank you for the question, Adam. I'll also add just a practical note. From my experience, there's a practice called aspecting, which is basically, you can take something like a pillow or an object, and you can project a person or project a thing or even project an internal part onto that. And that can be very helpful for bringing up some of the interpersonal dynamics without necessarily needing another person there as well. And that's something I've used myself. Okay, I'd like to touch on the question from Tanya, and then we'll wrap up after that. Tanya, if you're there, do you want to unmute yourself? If not, I can also.

Yeah.

Hi. Sorry, it took me a little while. Can you hear me okay?

Hi.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was just an acknowledgement, really, that there are a couple of those emotions that I guess, to my surprise, caused quite a sudden urge of emotional outburst that I wasn't expecting. And interestingly, what really quickly followed was a rationalization of everything. And almost like the. The analytical mind kicked in. And I'm just. I suppose I'm just sort of wondering what. What sort of tools could there be to try and not quieten that? Because I think it almost overpowered the emotional expression. It went like, okay, you're doing that because of this, or, you know, that those voices are not very. That are often maybe your protective factors that are coming in saying, maybe too much emotional expression is not good. I'm just wondering in those instances when you feel this emotion or you have your. You get the interception and you kind of acknowledge that feeling, how do you stop that sort of hijack of analysis and rationalization and control that maybe. Maybe he's trying to protect you, but maybe is not that helpful. Does that make sense?

I totally, totally, totally. And, you know, that speaks to.

What I talked about, is that our.

Culture highly emphasizes and encourages an intellectual approach to life. And so that's where most of us live. So the first thing that you do.

Is you literally say, thank you for that rationalization. But, you know, I don't want to.

Live in that world.

Right now. We're putting time on the emotional world.

And it's like returning back to the object of meditation. You just keep doing it, and eventually.

The rationalization stops because you don't feed it right. And you.

The more time you spend in the.

Emotional system, the easier it'll be to. To stay there.

But it's just a bad habit at.

One level that, that we have and.

And, and you do have to like honor that. The rational way of being has been very helpful for years or decades. But it's, you know, please just be quiet for a little while. I want to understand this other, quieter voice. And if you just keep doing that.

The rationality will, will leave.

Eventually when you do this, you will, you will actually have a shift in your sense of self and you'll start.

To live in your emotional system in.

A heartfelt, experiential way. And if you keep, you know, so that there'll be more of a. You see how kids run around with that unimpeded joy and liveliness and energy. They're living in their emotional frames, their emotional systems, their intellect hasn't dominated yet. As you do this work, that's what's going to happen to you. You're going to start moving into that more emotional, experiential, alive way of being in the world. And you can use the intellect when it's needed to solve problems, but you don't need the intellect running at high speed when you're talking to someone or enjoying their company or watching a show.

Or smelling a flower.

So it's bad habits that we have. And then eventually, like, especially if you meditate on quietness or samadhi and things, you'll move into the physical brain of pure awareness and then there's just quiet, expansive stillness all the time. And the intellect and the emotional systems are just seen as tools that you.

Use when you need them and then.

They shut down when they're not needed. You know, it's the modern mind right now with the intellect and the mind chatter would be like, I'm talking and I'm going like this with my arms. It's like we don't do that with our arms because we don't need to use our arms. But we do that with our intellect. It's like just, you know. But eventually you'll learn to like calm.

It down, move your sense of self.

To the emotional system, keep doing other kinds of work, and then they just all sit down and become tools that.

You use when you need them. No, but it's just we have bad habits right now.

That's really helpful. Can I just tag on to that? Is there a danger of too much emotional interception? Analysis? Is it not analysis? But is it. Can it be? Can you, can you have too much of that side of stuff? Does that mean that, you know, just you can have too much analysis and too much rationalization or too much intellect? Can you have too much of the other side?

Well, when you first start doing this work, you're going to spend a lot more time doing it than you used to. And yeah, if you're doing it right, it'll end on its own. Okay. Because there's only so many things to clear. You've only got nine core feelings. Once you've gone through all of them and maybe there's only six that you had to work with. It's done. Some people, however, have made emotional processing their focus on life. And then they, they start asking other people or working with other people and, and it's like, it's like a cancer survivor who keeps going to the cancer group even after they've cured themselves of cancer. It's like they got identified with that way of being in the world. So one of the things that I do say is like, use this in service of a goal. So if you're trying to have better relationships and you find yourself fighting or doing things, do the processing, clear it off, have better relationships, or show up more fully for your entrepreneurial work or whatever and then let it go. And if, then in another context you find yourself getting emotionally activated, then do that clearing work. But don't make finding everything that's possibly out of balance in your system the goal of your life. It, it's because it literally you'll move into what feels like past life experiences or group humanity experiences and you start crying for all the suffering in the world. There's, it's an endless journey that has all sorts of different forms. But we're here to be practical and move on, to achieve the visions that we have for our lives. And some people, however, specialize and become, you know, emotional astronauts and learn all the nuances of all the worlds. But that's a very rare thing and not something you want to do unconsciously.

Thank you very much.

Far more about emotions than I've ever really wanted to, but that's my life, you know, I'm here to teach emotions to other people. So I've learned all the nuances that I'm sure there's still others, but like.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Hope it's helpful.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Doug. This has been really phenomenal. I've just shared a link to your bio emotive framework.com website. Oh, you've frozen. Yeah, just, just, just wanted to ask for people who were like, wow, this seems really powerful. They want to go deeper, they want to learn more. What are some places that you would direct people to?

The, the self paced course that we have is on its. I Think third iteration and we keep improving it and there's going to be another set. But it's, it's a nice course that will teach you all of this stuff and give you experiential exercises. My daughter is in there teaching the dura processes which is a very powerful practice for the clearing. The first part is the theory and we'll actually give a discount if people want for. We have a code for you and I. I think my daughter was going to send it so I'll get that before we end.

Okay.

If you take the self paced course and you like it, I would encourage that. My daughter runs a class and I think the next one's going to show up in October and it's a group journey where you, you learn the theory and then do the experiential stuff and it's very powerful and very bonding you, you will make deep friends and connections with the people in the group because you're sharing at those levels and it's a very healing process. So that'll be happening in October. If you want to start earlier. The self paced course. We've also got the Nura guidebook which is just a 37 or 40 page.

Booklet on how to do nadura which.

Is you, you know, much more elaborate.

Version of what we did today.

And I do work one on one if people want. I'm expensive because I'm working mostly with entrepreneurs and, and that. But I'm trying to free up my time so that I have more time.

For writing and things.

So I'm trying to get other people to do more of that kind of work.

But right now it's mostly doing the life coaching.

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. I'll make sure that all of the resources, reading materials, links are in the notes of the recording for this which will be shared with the rest of the. Of the cohort. Yeah. Do you have any, any closing comments or anything else to add before we wrap up here?

No, I'll send you the coupon that you can give and I, I don't want it to be there in perpetuity. In perpetuity. Like we'll leave it good for the next week or something like that and then.

Okay. Yep.

Other than that I just, I'm. I'm so glad that you guys are doing this kind of work with Johnny and I think anything that I've talked about today is just a compliment to that and help you do what he's teaching maybe a little differently, more deeply in a slightly different way. But I think they're Very complementary works.

And I'm. I'm just so grateful that people like.

Johnny are also doing this kind of.

Work.

You know, I appreciate that so much. Everybody, fellow emotional psychonauts. Yeah, this has been such a pleasure. I. I also intend to go much deeper into your work as well. I appreciate the amount of rigor and depth that you've put into it. I think that's. That's what really stands out for me. It's a real synthesis of a lot of different research and, you know, decades of work, and it really shows.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting you in Boulder.

Likewise. Yeah, I'm excited for it with Mike as well. All right, well, everyone, if you'd like to close by unmuting and saying thank you so much. Doug, this was awesome.

Can I say one thing?

Oh, yeah, yeah, please.

Yeah.

And it's because you reminded me of Boulder. There's a. There's a. A group of people that I greatly admire that are putting together something called Sleep Awake Camp. And it's for people between 18 and 28 who want to do this kind of deep journey for a month in Boulder, Colorado. And so Sleep Awake Camp, if you're in that age range, you want to do that. It's an awesome thing. I'll be there for a week teaching this stuff as well. But I was there last year in Hawaii for the month, and it was a really deep, transformational container for people. So I just thought I'd slip that in because it might be something your people.

Yeah, I've heard your things about that. Do you have a link to that, Doug? Where could people find out more?

I can send it to you with the coupon.

Perfect.

Okay.

Nice. All right, everyone, unmute. Thank you so much, Doug. This was friggin awesome.

Thank you, Doug.

Thank you, Doug.

Thank you, Doug. This was amazing.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Ciao, everyone. See you soon.

Thanks, Johnny.