Andy Le Peau (Author of Write Better)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. Hey, I hope you guys had a terrific resurrection Sunday this past Easter. If Easter wasn't enough inspiration for you to go and create new things in light of who you are in Christ, I hope this episode will provide you with some motivation to do so. That's right. Today we're talking about how the gospel and the resurrection of Christ is gives us the courage to create with Andy Lepo, the legendary editor who spent 40 years as an editor and publisher at InterVarsity Press, one of the top Christian publishing houses. Andy has edited some of my all time favorite authors, including andy Crouch and N.T. wright, who both of whom you've heard me talk about numerous times on the Call to Mastery. So Andy's also a successful author in his own right whose books have sold more than 750,000 copies. Trust me, that is a mind boggling number of books. Andy recently published a book called Write Better A Lifelong Editor on Craft, Art and Spirituality, which was chosen by Christianity Today as the best book of 2020 in the culture and arts category. So Andy and I recently sat down. We talked about this new book. We talked about how the gospel gives us the courage to create and to stop creating. We also talked about the wisdom of taking all of your vacation at the same time. Andy talked about how for years, decades, he would take three, four weeks of vacation all in one big chunk. And we also talked about the idol of individualism and the impact that that can have on our work. That might have been my favorite part of this conversation. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with literary legend Andy Lupo. All right, Andy Leau, thank you so much for joining me. So, Andy, you've been in publishing for more than 40 years now. I'm really curious how you started in this industry going back 40 years. How did you break into this space? What did that look like 40 years ago?

Well, it started in grade school. I mean, looking back on it, it looks obvious. At the time, I had no clue, you know, because, you know, when you're young, you're interested in all kinds of things. But yeah, I mean, even in grade school when I had a report to do for history or whatever, I would make a title page. I'd have a table of contents. I would, you know, divide the report up into one page, chapters, and have a heading for each one. And so I just thought that was kind of cool to do. But I was just naturally making books, even at that age. And then in high school, early in high school, a friend and I actually self published a humor book. And this was even before self publishing was a thing. Yeah, yeah, sure. We just went to a local printer and said, hey, would you print this up for us? And he did. And. And so we just sold 500 copies for a buck each. And that was a lot of fun.

That's pretty impressive when you're 16. So what'd you go to school for? English, journalism.

I was a mathematics major.

Interesting. Okay. And so was your first job out of school in the publishing industry?

It was actually with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship on the campus side in the campus division. So I was a campus minister, campus staff member for a couple years in St. Louis. And then I heard about an opening in the editorial department that they had at InterVarsity Press, which is a division of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. So I applied to that and I.

Was hired, and that was that. Forty years later, here we are.

Right? Yeah. The rest is history.

Yeah.

I mean, I spent my entire career with one organization, you know, which is just. It never happens. It never happens.

It's unfathomable. I mean, especially today. But even in your generation, that is. That's quite rare and in the book. So in Write Better, you talk about kind of coming to this realization of calling after the fact. Right. You kind of looked at it in retrospect and said, oh, oh, yeah, that's my thing. Can you explain what you mean by this? Because I think this is a common feeling of being able to see the common thread afterwards. Talk about how that happened for you.

Right. Well, a lot of common advice that you get, and I've given it myself to other people, is, you know, when they say, what should I do? Well, follow your passion. The problem is, especially when you're in your teens and twenties, sometimes even in your thirties, you don't know what your passion is. You just don't. And so the only option is to, I think, is to just experiment, try a lot of things and see what you like, see what you don't like. So, yeah, as I said, I had a lot of interest when I was young. I still have a variety of interests, but I found that, you know, and then somebody in college, this was a really a key conversation. A friend in college, and I don't remember the context or how it came up, but she turned to me and she said, oh, you ought to go into publishing. And the penny dropped for me right then I said to myself, of course, of course. How could I not have seen? Right? But the thing is, we're all too close to ourselves. We're all too close. We can't see it. So we need other people in our lives who can reflect back to us, who can tell us what they are seeing, and who can help us find direction in that way.

Now, I couldn't agree more. And I actually talk about this a lot in my book that was just released in Master of One of the value of asking others what you're gifted at and letting others point the way to the work that we might be most gifted at because we don't know our quote, unquote passion. Follow your gifts. Follow the things that other people are saying. Hey, you're good at this, or you're really interested in this, and experiment widely. I think that's terrific advice. And so in the book, you talk about this conversation you have with your daughter when you are clearly articulated, how you describe your calling. Can you describe that in one or two sentences here?

Yeah, sure. So my daughter Susan, who was in college at the time, she just, again, this is out of context. She out of the blue, said, dad, what's your calling in life? And I was shocked because I don't think I'd ever really articulated it. So I stumbled around a little bit, and then I said, well, I think it's to glorify God through words, whether written or spoken. And she looked at me and kind of nodded her head knowingly and said, I thought so. Which, that's interesting because I didn't know. So. But she did.

That's so succinct, too. Right? Because you have a tremendous amount of experience as an editor. Right. But you also have a tremendous amount of experience as a writer yourself. We've got a lot of writers and aspiring authors who listen to this podcast. And so I want to spend the bulk of our time talking about, all right, how do we become masterful at that craft? Which, coincidentally, is what your book is all about. And I read in your bio that your books that you've authored along with your wife, have sold more than 750,000 copies. Is that right?

That's. Yeah, we've done a number of books together, and cumulatively, yeah, they've added up to that much.

So for those of you that don't know. That's a mind boggling number. That is a phenomenal number of books. And I'm assuming a lot of those have sold over a really long period of time. I'm assuming some of those had a really long tail to them. So what's the secret to creating products that sell for years and years? What's the secret to perennial sellers?

Yeah, I mean, if I knew that, I would be a lot wealthier than I am. There is no one formula. And you can try to follow the formula and one time it'll work and another time it won't. And that's just publishing is a funny business. And that's part of the humor of it. Just when you think you know what you're doing, it'll show you that you really don't. But I think obviously listening is a theme that I have in the book. Write better listening in all kinds of ways and listening to what's going on in the lives of other people, issues that are coming across their lives, all of that paying attention to what's going on with other folks, friends or random people that you meet. And so being in touch with that, listening to God, listening to the word of God, letting that be a source for you, listening to other people when they have suggestions to make about your own life or your writing, being willing to take criticism and not take it personally. So listening to me is critical and it's a discipline that I think nurtures the virtue of humility. You can't just say, I'm going to be humble, you know, that's my goal. But I think you can say, I'm going to listen. And you can try to develop that as a habit, as a spiritual listening, listening in all dimensions and phases of your life.

No, I think that's really good advice. And I mean, listen, you have a lot more experience than I do with creating perennial sellers. But if I were to have to answer the question, I think I'd answer it similarly, right? Which is write the book you think your audience needs. Listen to what your audience is saying. Listen to what your audience is struggling with. Now, it's got to be something that you really want to write, right? But I've seen a lot of authors sometimes write the book that they really want to write without taking into account what their audience needs. And that's usually not a recipe for a book that sells really well and that makes the author and the publisher really happy. Would you agree with that?

Well, there's a balance there. Because if you write what you think other people want to hear or what they need. It can come off as pandering and people see right through that. They see right through that and they know that this is not really something that comes from deep within somebody. So, yes, it has to be a passion. But in the sense of any topic can be of interest. Any topic can be of help if you care about it, but you've got to write it in a way that relates to your audience, so you can't just shoot way over their head or try to be too simplistic on the other side. You've got to pay attention to who it is that you're writing for, even if the topic may or may not be obviously of interest.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I got a new editor recently and she's like, hey, like, what do you see yourself writing about for the next 10 years? And my response was, I'm not exactly. I'm less clear on what the topics will be, but I'm very clear on who the audience is. Right. I know who I want to write for. Right. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. For I think it's one of the few things I've gotten right in my career as a writer is like focusing really intensely on the who, which are the people listening to this show. Christians who very much want to do extraordinary work for the glory of God and the good of others. So, Andrew, I'm sure you hear this a lot, right? People who come to you are like, hey, Andy, I want to write a book. They don't have a topic. Right. But they have this deep longing which I think is very human. And I want to talk about the spiritual element of that later in the conversation. But just this desire, like, I want to write a book, don't have a topic. What advice do you give to people like that to say, I want to write a book? I'm not sure what about, what's a practical framework for unearthing a topic? Or do you tell them, come back to me when you have an idea?

That usually helps. Yes. If you've got an idea, that's a kind of a minimum base level requirement. But I say work at the craft. Don't start by saying, I'm going to write a book. If you've never written anything before, it's like saying, hey, I'm going to run a marathon next weekend. And I haven't trained, haven't done anything, but I'm going to, you know, sounds like fun, let's do it. It's not going to happen, you know, you got to start with, okay, I'm going to run a hundred yards today. Okay. And then I'm going to run 200 yards tomorrow and 300 yards the next day. And you build it up over time and then hand. I'm going to do some weights on the side. You know, maybe every third day, I'm going to do weights and I'm going to run the other two. You work at it and you work at your craft. And so I say start small. Write just a paragraph a day, a page a day, 300 words a day, whatever. A thousand words a day. Pick a goal and then just write that and try to do some writing every day.

I think people underappreciate the marathon that is writing a book. It is a massive endeavor. It looks romantic, it looks beautiful, and it is. Right. It's also grueling emotionally, spiritually. So once you've got the concept, though, right? So I've got an idea for a book. You point out that one of the most common mistakes you see aspiring writers make is this feeling that a book has got to be about everything. Right. So. And you say in the book, a book about everything is really a book about nothing, which I couldn't agree more. How do you coach authors to hone in on the core message of what it is they're writing?

Well, sometimes it just takes a lot of talking. You talk back and forth with people, and then because I'm alert to this stuff, when I hear them say something, then it's like, that's the book right there. That one sentence. That's the book. So, you know, parenting. A lot of people want to write about parenting or want to write about marriage. Problem is, there are dozens, hundreds, thousands of books on marriage, broadly speaking, that try to cover the waterfront of marriage. And there's too much competition and it's not going to work. You got to focus in and pick one slice of that big, broad topic that's everything, and get down to just one little piece of it, which you may say is. Which may feel too small or insignificant.

But it's what you give an example on the parenting or marriage topic, give an example of what a one sentence slice might look like. Maybe for a book that you've edited.

Oh, you know, maybe like how to have a great family vacation.

Yeah.

Potentially. It could be a magazine article.

Sure.

It might not be big enough for a book, and that's okay. But it might be a magazine article, and then maybe it could become a book. You know, you try that first and See what happens. But that's an example of a little slice, not the whole of marriage or the whole of family life.

Yeah. In Write Better you make the point that originality isn't really a thing in writing. Or at least I think that's the point you're trying to make. We are always building upon the work of others. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. I think people have this kind of mystical idea of what's creativity or what does it mean to come up with a new idea and that it's kind of magical and it suddenly appears and now you've got something that's brand new that no one has ever thought of before. I hesitate to say always, but because that's dangerous to say always or never about anything. But I have yet to really come across something that was entirely original. What happens is creativity is actually the combination of two things that already exist that haven't been combined in quite that way before, or maybe never before. So, you know, when Mr. Reese decided that he wanted to combine chocolate and peanut butter, that was new. Nobody had done that before, at least in the way he'd done it. And so he, you know, created this best selling candy bar. And then somebody else said, well, maybe we could combine chocolate and peanut butter ice cream, you know, and now that's different. It's not quite as creative as the first time chocolate and peanut butter were combined, but it's still creative because it's in a new mode. And then somebody comes along and says, well, maybe we could have a chocolate peanut butter stout. What do you think about that? You know, would that work? And sometimes, you know, it works, sometimes it doesn't. I've had some of each, but it's a creative idea, you know, to do something like that. So the idea and creativity. For me, the key if you want to be creative is you've got to have a whole bunch of stuff swimming in your head. You got to be exposed to all kinds of experiences, all of kinds, all kinds of knowledge, all kinds of languages, situations, people. And the more you've got to draw on, the more possibility that there are going to be two things that'll come together in your head that haven't come together in anybody else's head before. And that's creativity.

I think Steve Jobs. I'm not going to get the quote exactly right, but Steve Jobs wants to find creativity as connecting ideas. Right? I think that's what you're saying. Disconnected things, bringing them together in a new way. It's what we do as human beings. In modeling the creator. God. Right. God gave us these raw materials in the world and called us to rearrange them in different ways to bring about new things. Do you know Scott Kaufman, by the way?

No.

Former editor for Tim Keller and Tim's books. I sat down, I had coffee with Scott once right before my book Called To Create was being released, which is really a manifesto for Christian culture creators and entrepreneurs. And Scott was like, oh, man, I'm really excited about this book. What's new about it? I was like, nothing, absolutely nothing. I am saying what Tim said in every endeavor. I'm saying what Andy Crouch said in culture, making a book that I know you helped edit. I'm saying the exact same thing. I'm saying in different ways, Right. And I'm saying it through a different lens and through different experiences. And that is bringing something, quote, unquote, new into the world. But I think there's a lot we can add value by saying things from a different perspective, in a different way, in a different tone, in a different voice. So a lot of wisdom of what you just said. So. And in my newest book, Master of One, I talk about this principle of rapid feedback and how crucial that is to mastering any vocation. And I find that to be particularly true in writing. So I'm really curious, what does it look like practically for you to get feedback on your writing? So in the writer's chair, not the editor's chair, how do you go about getting feedback on what you're writing? How frequently do you do it? What does that look like for you?

Well, for me, it involves getting professional friends, not just friends, but professional friends, to be willing to chime in and tell me what they think. And so sometimes I will, when I was writing the book, write better. Sometimes I would just send one chapter to a particular friend who I knew had expertise in that area and said, tell me what you think. Give me some input here. And we've got a strong enough relationship that I know they're going to be honest with me. They're not going to soft pedal what they have to say for others. I wanted some people to see the whole book. So I would wait for. Until that was basically drafted. And then they were very generous in the time that they gave me and gave me a lot of wonderful feedback. And I ended up rewriting and rearranging a whole bunch of stuff in the book based on the input I got from people because I wanted to take their input seriously. And they were right 90% of the time. So why not do what they Say so.

Yeah.

And then, of course, the publisher had their own review process and they got anonymous reviews, which are also helpful because then there's not a relational factor that's going to make the thing weird. And people can just say what they think and they don't have to have a relational repercussion potentially messing things up.

I find one of the hardest things about getting constructive feedback, especially from people, you know, is really having a state of the relationship to where they feel comfortable really critiquing the work. And I find, like, asking the right questions, even some more specific questions, is really helpful to get that feedback. Do you have some questions you really like to ask when seeking out feedback on your work, on your writing?

Well, I like to ask, is anything missing that maybe should be covered? Are there any weaknesses in the argument that you see? You know, just, have I gotten anything wrong here? And is there anything that could be cut out? Which is a very painful question to ask because sometimes they say, yes, yes, you could cut this out and you don't want to do that. That's hard for any writer. And so those are a few of the questions that I find helpful.

I like the question of cutting out. I don't think to do that. I don't think to ask that question. That's a good question. Like, what's superfluous? What is not essential in the work? That's good. What are the routines and habits that have made the biggest impact on your productivity and your effectiveness as a writer and editor over these 40 years? What are the habits that you look back and be like, yeah, I'm glad I did that every single day for 30 years, 20 years, whatever it is.

Yeah. Well, one thing I did before I retired when I was in a, quote unquote, 40 hour a week job, was I would take my vacation in a block as much as I could. I would take three or four weeks at a time and just get away. We had a lake that we would go off to in Michigan for most of those times, or we would go to Colorado. But usually I was not just traveling around, which could be exhausting. We would just sit or just stay. I should say stay in one location for a week or two or three at a time. And I would tell my staff, I would say, do not contact me unless the earth is about to crash into the sun. Then you can give me a call and let me know, give me a heads up. Yeah, give me a heads up on that. But otherwise, you guys are competent, you're well trained, you've got Years of experience, you know what you're doing. Just make your best decision. I don't want to know about it, if at all possible. So it gave me. I heard somebody say once that you need a week to decompress, a week to relax, and then a week to prepare to reenter. So his recommendation was three weeks when you're in a high pressure job. And I found that over the years that allowed me to really go at high speed the other 11 months of the year.

I love that advice. I've been hearing that from a few people recently. John Mark Comer, who just wrote a book called the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, talks a lot about this. Right. Like extended Sabbaths, three, four week periods of rest. So I got to try that out. I don't know how that will work with little kids, but maybe over the summer, take a few weeks off.

Yeah, we did it with little kids, you know. So did you really, when our kids were young. Well, again, we were by a lake and so they could just go jump in the water anytime they wanted and have a blast. We could just see them from, you know, the porch. And so we didn't have to run somewhere to supervise them. And that did work pretty well.

Yeah, I love that I got to try that. So I really loved the third part of your book, in particular, the spirituality of writing. I want to park there for a little bit. So can you talk about how the Christian faith gives us the courage to create, how the gospel specifically maybe gives us the courage to create what you talk about in the book?

Yeah, I think writing is a courageous act. I think it is something that takes some strength and some fortitude because you can get criticism on the other end, or you could just face absolutely no response whatsoever, which could be worse, potentially. It's like nobody even cared enough to criticize me. Nobody read the thing. And that could be a fearful prospect. So there is a lot of potential for fear, I think, in writing of any kind. But I think knowing that we are in Christ is critical and that my identity is not tied to what I write. What I write is not who I am. It's a reflection or it's a product of who God has made me and the experiences that I have accumulated over the years. But it is not my identity. And I think that we can helpfully separate ourselves from the results of what we do, separate ourselves from our writing. And so that we can look at it objectively and know that whether it succeeds or whether it fails, fails, those results are in God's hands. Our job is to be faithful. Our job is not to succeed. Our job is to be faithful to what the Lord has given us in terms of experiences and the work that we've done in the past and perhaps some innate abilities. But it's knowing that and being grounded in that. So that criticism is not the issue. It's, you know, am I being faithful to the gifts that have been given to me?

Amen. That's very well said. You also talked about the courage to stop creating and the ability to know when to walk away, when to stop writing the thing.

Right.

When to rest. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Right, right. So the courage to stop in the sense of, I'm not going to keep fussing with it indefinitely. I'm actually going to send it out into the world, I'm going to stop working on it and let someone else look at it, let other people read it and review it. And again, that is a step that takes courage to do that. Because we can have results of failure or we can have results of people criticizing, but if we never do, then we really aren't fulfilling the role that God may be giving us as a writer.

Yeah. It's one of the great advantages I think of traditional publishing over self publishing is traditional publishers give you a deadline, like you have to ship the thing.

Right.

You have to say, I'm done, I got to send this in. Whereas with self publishing, you could be writing a book for 13 years. So you mentioned this phrase. I think it was in the chapter, can't recall. I think it was in the chapter about self publishing versus traditional publishing. You mentioned this phrase, the idol of individualism, which I found very interesting. So what do you mean by this phrase and follow up question that what do Christians need to be mindful of to that end?

I don't think we appreciate, especially in North American, European, Western society, that we are as individualistic as we are, that we think it is all about us, that every decision we make should be about us or made by us individually. And that there's a culture, there's a community, I should say there's a community of people that are around us that we need to involve. And it's not always about me. It's not always about me. Sometimes it's about the family, sometimes it's about the church community, sometimes it's about my neighborhood. And the question is, how can I contribute to that rather than what's the right thing for me as an individual?

You know, I've been thinking about this concept in the context of calling and Vocation, Right. This like ever popular topic in the church, especially amongst millennials. I think we forget that we are a part of a general call sometimes that God has called his church to glorify him and to love neighbor as self. We all share that general call. And I think if we stopped obsessing over the specific things that we are doing towards that, maybe we could be more effective. Right. Like coming to the place where you realize that I can do a lot of different things vocationally that would glorify God and love neighbor himself. I think that gives you great freedom to just pick a lane and focus on getting really great at it. And so service of that broad call. I think a lot of people roam around the world thinking that there's one magical thing buried in the earth that God has created them to do, when in reality he's given us lots of gifts and lots of interest and lots of opportunity. It's our job to like, choose something at some point, commit to something at some point, and get really great at it. Would you agree? Disagree with that, Have a different take?

No, I agree. I think that's well said that we forget that. Yeah, we are called as a community and part of our role is to contribute to that, to participate in that, to recognize what it is and then make a difference in that. And so sometimes, yeah, for the sake of the group, my particular individuality takes second place. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that can be a really good thing.

Yeah, that's freeing in a lot of ways, right?

Absolutely.

Why we mentioned this a few minutes ago, I feel like everybody wants to write a book. I know not everybody wants to write a book, but as a writer, I come in contact with a lot of people who want to write a book. What do you think is the core of that? Is there a spiritual element? This like deep, seemingly never ending human desire to create things in particular books that have the potential to last beyond us? Is that the draw? Right. This idea that we could leave something behind that's physical, that'll outlive us? Have you thought about that at all?

I think that's part of it. I think part of it too is there is a very deep desire to be known. I think we all want to be known, hopefully known and loved rather than known and rejected. But that I think is really deep within us. To have somebody really, really know who I am. Yes. Even flaws as well as strengths, and still appreciate me, still accept me and be willing to not say those flaws aren't flaws, not pretend, because that's not helpful, but somebody who can really appreciate and welcome me even as I am. So I think that's part of it. And as I say in Write Better somewhat tongue in cheek, all writing is autobiographical. Everything we write is about ourselves in one way or another. Even if we're writing a history of somebody else or a biography of somebody else, it's actually part of it is our journey to learn about that other person. And so it does involve us and includes us, us and who we are. So everything we write, there's some self revelation that's going on. And I think that's. There's nothing wrong with that. I think God has built that into us at a very deep and important level.

Yeah, he's designed us to be relational. He's designed us for relationship, for intimacy to be known. And as Christians, obviously we believe that that can only ultimately be satisfied in Christ. But there is still this deep longing for intimacy with other human beings. And I think books are an interesting way to express that. I've been thinking a little bit, maybe this is a topic for another book, another Day about, you know, our desire to make physical things in the world in our increasingly digital age. I think it speaks to this, not to get too theological, but I think it speaks to some desire for the new earth, the new heavens, the new earth. This desire, this deep seated feeling that we were meant to produce physical things that can last forever, that things that we create had the potential to live on. As N.T. wright says in Surprised by Hope. Right. In the New Heavens and the Earth. I know you've edited nt. Right. So maybe we should have him on to talk about, to talk about that and unpack those ideas. All right, Andy. I ask everyone who comes on the call to mastery three questions to wrap up. I'm really interested to hear your take on this. First one. Which books do you recommend or gift the most to others? And I'm gonna ask you for at least one that you've edited and one that you haven't.

Oh, okay. Well, one that I haven't edited is, which I mention in Write Better all the Time is William Zinsser's book Write Better, which is just a fabulous book. And I recommend that book to people all the time. It really is a great, great place to start as a writer. Yeah. I tell people, read Zinsser and then do what he says. It's that simple. Read him and do what he says. Oh, a book that I've edited that I recommend to people a lot. Well, you mentioned Andy Crouch and his books Playing God. I make reference to that all the time. It's a substantive book and so it'll be a challenging read for some people, but that's okay. You know, I think he's just got some very profound things to say there about idolatry, injustice, and what it means to be made in the image of God. Those things are just so important and so basic to our world and our life and the challenges that we are facing in a technological, increasingly hyper technological world. Yeah.

So, yeah, I recommend a lot of Crouch across the Board, Playing God Strong and Weak Strong Week's one of my all time favorite culture making so great, great, great books. What one person would you most like to hear talk about the intersection of their faith and their work? Maybe on this podcast?

I've got a friend whose name is Steve Smith and he's the CEO, chairman of the board of a Fortune 500 company. And I so admire him. He has an amazing take on what it means to be a Christian in a capitalist world. We may criticize capitalism or we may love it, or we may have mixed feelings about it, but he, I think, really has a really good sense of how do you permeate Christian values and Christian life. Not in an explicit way, obviously, because it's not a Christian company in that sense, but how do you act and be a Christian in that kind of environment? And he's just very good.

Yeah, Steve's terrific. I've admired him from afar for a while. He'd be great. All right, last question. What one piece of advice would you leave somebody listening to this podcast about somebody who's sitting there, they love Jesus, they're passionately following after Christ, but they're also passionately trying to do their most masterful work. Maybe even as a writer, what advice would you leave that person with?

Well, whether you're a writer or whether you're in sales or whether you are an accountant or whatever, it might be an entrepreneur of some kind? I think the one piece of advice I'd give is don't compare. Don't compare yourself to other people. But that way lies the path to despair, I think, because there's always going to be somebody better. There's always going to be somebody better than we are. What we should do is compare ourselves to ourselves. Am I getting better? Am I improving? Am I continuing to work at my craft? Am I continuing to be better at how I relate to people or how I design buildings or whatever? Am I getting better? Am I always learning? Am I growing? Am I working harder to improve so that would be my piece of advice for someone who wants to master their craft or their field. Don't compare yourself to other people, just compare yourself to yourself.

That's one of my favorite answers we've heard to that question thus far. I love it. Hey Andy, I just want to commend you for writing such a terrific book and Write Better. Thank you for your commitment to the Call to Mastery and pursuing world class excellence of your craft and serving your authors and your readers really, really well through the Ministry of excellence. Your work matters. All of our work matters. I just thank you for doing it really well. Hey guys, if you want to learn more from Andy, I highly recommend the book Write Better. A lifelong editor on craft, art and spirituality and Andy, you blog too pretty proficiently, right? Are you going to keep the blog up?

I am. I have been blogging at Andy unedited for 1215 years now and I keep putting something up about every week. So yeah, people want to find me at andunyanedited. Just type that into your search window and hit enter and you'll find it right there.

I love it. Andy, thanks so much for being with us today.

Jordan, it's been great.

What a great time I had with Andy. Hey, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the called Mastery. If you're enjoying the show, do me a favor, subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode in the future. And if you're already subscribed, Please go take 30 seconds and review the podcast. As you guys go out this week and do your work, I pray that the words of encouragement from Andy and this show would inspire you to lean more ambitiously in the work God says given you to do and the things that he has called you to create for his glory and the good of others. Thanks for listening. Talk to you guys next week.