Becky Nesbitt (Editor at Penguin Random House)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits and routines, and how the gospel gives shape to the work they do in the world. Today's guest I'm so excited for you to get to meet her. This is my editor, Becky Nesbitt. She's an executive editor at Penguin Random House, the world's largest publisher, where she acquires and edits books for the publisher's faith based imprints. She edited Redeeming your Time, my book that just came out yesterday. Before that, she edited books for authors way more impressive than yours truly, including Randy Alcorn, Dave Ramsey, Karen Kingsbury, Francine Rivers, Daryl Strawberry, Jerry Jenkins, Brad Paisley. The list goes on and on. So Becky and I sat down. We had a terrific conversation about what happened when Becky started letting her friends curate the news for her. Becky shared three amazing tips for delivering great feedback. So even if you're not an editor, we're always all of us delivering feedback to our teams, to people in our life. These three tips are invaluable for delivering that feedback well. And we talked about how to make the transition of viewing Sabbath like rest as a chore to viewing it as something that we can feast on is this good gift that God has given us. You guys are going to love this conversation with my beloved editor and friend, Becky Nesbit. Becky Nesbit, my friend, an honor to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me on, Jordan.

So I don't think a lot of people realize that when you have this title of executive editor, your job isn't just editing, right? You, you wear two hats, you edit books and you acquire books, you acquire content. Can you tell us a little bit about those dual roles so our audience can wrap their heads around what you do all day?

Yeah, absolutely. You're right, Jordan. I wear a couple of hats, maybe even three hats, which I'll get into in a minute. But the first job of an executive editor really is to be on the lookout for great content and to be tuned into the marketplace, tuned into culture, into the church. What kind of conversations are happening? Where are the pain points? Where are the praise points? The different things that are happening across culture really are what an acquiring editor is tuned into. So that's what I'm looking for.

And so you. So you have authors come to you pitch books via their agents. Right? And you're the one saying, yeah, I'm going to take this to the rest of my team to consider or not. You're the first gatekeeper and the last gatekeeper in some ways at the publisher, right?

Yeah, that's exactly right. Jordan. If the project comes to me from an agent or an author that I maybe know, then I am the first person to review it and see how it connects. Is there something here? Is the author saying something in a unique way? Is there a promise that readers are really going to latch onto? That is really my job at the very first stage of the book. And then it goes into the various committees where the project is vetted and reviewed again and again.

All right, so what are your two other hats?

Editing is my next hat. So let's say that the project that came to me goes through the various approval processes and it becomes a contracted book. That's when the author and I start working on the manuscript together. You and I have been through this process a couple of times where we edit so that the manuscript is the very best it can be and the author's vision is being highlighted and showcased for the reader. That's my job as the editor. That is a large part of my job. But there's a whole other part of my job that I think many people in the industry don't know, and that is being the champion for the book all the way through the process. And so when it comes time for sales meeting, when it comes time to look at sales copy, when it comes time to talk about marketing, I am part of the team that talks to the salesforce. I'm part of the team that's involved on those marketing calls. I'm the one that's championing the book because those marketers and those sales team members are looking to me, is this content right? Is there something that we are missing? Is there an excerpt you can pull for me? Anything that needs to happen with the content of the book, those various departments are coming to me to get that content. So I really am your champion long after the book is edited.

It's interesting. It's almost like a co CEO Relationship. Right. The author is really a CEO of a project, but the co CEO. Yeah. Is your editor who's championing the project. Maybe another good analogy is almost like a product manager. Right. Like you're managing the process, the product from A to Z. I don't think I've ever told you this. I've always thought this job is one of the best jobs in the world because at least for me, like, I think it would be a blast if I wasn't doing this work, which I plan on doing till the day I die. Because it's both editorial and business. Right. You have to be great with words, but you also have to understand numbers and be able to make a business case for a book. I think you have a great gig, which is probably why you've been doing it for so long.

Right? You are. You have dialed into exactly why I love what I do, Jordan. And I hope that it shows. I think that you are right when you say that is a co CEO. And I really do love the part of developing content as well as the business side. If this content isn't shaped the way that it should be, if this content can have a little bit extra over here, and if we need to make sure that we're saying something the right way, that that does impact how the business of the book ends up. So really, making is marketing, correct? Correct.

If there's one piece of advice I could give to aspiring creators in really any form, the making is the marketing. Right. It's Ryan Holiday's written really eloquently about this in his great book, perennial seller. But hey, I'm curious. You spent 25 years in the book publishing industry. Like, your life, your career has been books. Why books? Like, what is it about this form of media that you love so much?

That's a really good question. I get. I do get asked that question a lot because there are so many other forms of content delivery now. And books are, to me, my first love. I grew up reading books. I devoured books when I was a kid and on through high school and college. That was always the way I could connect with the world or escape the world. And that is why I still love working with books. You can take them with you, you can set them aside and pick them up later and read the same content you read five years ago. And it hits you in a whole new way. There's something timeless about books. And as you raise your children, I think, Jordan, you will find this to be true. The books that you read and loved as a kid, when you See your children reading those same books and connecting with them and having those touchpoint conversations about what metaphors spoke to you or what the main character's decisions meant to you. That part of books is timeless as well. And that is a really incredible teaching moment and a fun stage of parenting.

I cannot wait till my kids are at the age where I feel like they can appreciate the Chronicles in Narnia as one example. Right. I don't read a lot of fiction, but I love the Chronicles of Narnia. We were talking about this when we were having dinner with your family a couple weeks ago. Love, Lewis. Love Narnia. I think part of this appeal of books, if you ask somebody about life changing moments, like truly life alternating moments, in my experience, people almost always point to either a person, person that caused that life changing moment, or a book. I've never heard somebody say it was a course or a podcast or some other media. I. I don't know. There's something. And in a way saying that it's a book is really just another way of saying it's a person who influenced you. Because a book is such an intimate setting. Right. You're spending five to ten hours with that author one on one in a way. Right. Do you think that's part of this?

I do. I think a book is an extension of a person and it is the way that you get to know their heart and their vision for whatever the premise of the book is in a way that we don't honor as much in culture today. You know, people don't get the airtime that really so many topics deserve when we're scrolling socials or reading news that's so snackable right now. And I'm not going to bemoan social media. All I'm going to say is that a book gives you that long form into intimate look into someone's vision, heart, message.

So you spent your career in the quote unquote Christian publishing space. So very clear how your faith influences what you do. But I am curious how the gospel gives shape to how you do your work. Do you see any connections there?

I think the connections are endless and it is the difference maker. I think in my career over 25 plus years, because all truth is God's truth. So when I am struck by content that is said in a fresh way that has changed my perspective or my opinion, I recognize that that is a gift from God. I recognize that that came from him for that moment in time. And so I think that editing or working in this industry is holy work. Definitely there is something about God's word that will not return void. And so that is part of how I enter into the process. And being a daughter of the king and knowing that he desires for me to use my giftings to the glory of God and the good of others, I know that when I am connected to him, when I'm walking in the spirit, when I am listening for his voice in my work, I can be confident that the decisions I'm making do have eternal impact.

No, you're just rearticulating what Paul says in First Corinthians 15:58. Hey, something I wanted to ask you about. You seem very happy spending 25 plus years with your name being in the back of the book in the acknowledgments section and not on the COVID And listen like in this cultural moment, I think that's hard for a lot of people and this just influencer obsessed, I would say influencer exhausted cultural moment. What advice do you have for those listening who feel this tension right between a desire to be a front man or front woman, but these God given gifts that clearly are better suited for a different role? What would you say to that person?

Yeah, I can only speak from my experience and my sort of temperament toward the back of the book versus the byline on the front of the book. And I have never had the desire to be an author. That is not an aspiration. God made it clear to me from the beginning that my gifts were, were to shape, content, to interact with authors in a way that brings out the best in them. That is my gifting. And I've never felt sort of jealous for the spotlight or for byline, so to speak. So I have not struggled in the way that maybe some would. Some people come out of college and then get into publishing so that they can eventually parlay that into becoming an author. That is not something that I desire to do. And I think that is largely because I'm so confident that my role really is to help. And I'm a midwife, so to speak, and help an author birth a baby into the world. That is a comfortable position for me. I think when you are, when you have a byline on a book, that's a responsibility that, you know, a very weighty responsibility. It is a weighty responsibility and I'm, I'm going to forget the passage where it is. But we, some of us should not become teachers and pastors and leaders because that is a responsibility that they are called to a higher standard. And so I do see that authors do have A high standard. And it's my job to help hold them accountable through the work that I do. And that's always what God has put in front of me.

Yeah, well, I'm glad you haven't struggled with that, because I do. I think a lot of people do. And Paul talks so much about this, about being comfortable and accepting the gifts that God has given you and leaning into those things. Right. Rather than the gifts you haven't done, the gifts that you envy in others. Right.

I, I, yes, I do. I have other areas that I struggle. I promise you I'm not perfect, but I will say it is a It in general terms, is a comfort to authors to know that I do not desire to be an author. I do not desire to take over their words and form their book into my likeness. And I think that that really gives them the freedom to explore their project, their message, in exactly the way God's put on their heart. And when they know I'm not going to say, change this to read in such and such a way. And a pen, you know, page after page, that really, I think, throws some authors off balance if they are working in a relationship like that, where someone is overstepping.

There is this perception of editors. I think that editors have ultimate control over an author's content. And I've worked with you. I know that's not true. Your job is to make the book as great as possible, and it's really delivered via just terrific feedback and suggestions or spotting of problems. And, you know, I think most of our listeners, regardless of their vocation, regardless if they're editing books or managing a team, they have to deliver feedback to team members, to vendors, whatever. You're exceptionally good at this. What tips do you have for delivering feedback in an effective way?

Thank you, Jordan. I think that it comes with experience, with years of experience and over time learning how to get the best out of somebody. I do think this is going to sound a little too maternal, but I do think parenting also helps. No, I do think that authors. Every time I approach a project, I pray before I start the project that God would give me the eyes to see the message in the book and what needs to be shaped, changed, or left alone. And there are several projects I've worked on that need a lot of shaping. There are projects that I've worked on that don't need a whole lot of shaping. But that's because I think that God really does go with me into the project. And so giving feedback to an editor, when I get to a part that's saying needs shaping or needs to be moved from one part of the book to another part of the book to give the author feedback. Really, it looks like me affirming their gift, affirming the message. I see the exact message that they're trying to convey in the manuscript. So when they know that I am on their team, like anybody, when you give feedback with the tone that this is corrective criticism, this is not. This is not something that I'm going to like. I like to say, cough up a hairball and walk away. I'm actually pointing something out and then also offering a solution. And I do think that's the key to giving feedback as an editor. Not only pointing out something that's not working, but saying, and I think we can do this or this, and seeing some of those options. I think that's empowering to an author also, because you don't have to take option A. You can choose option B or option C. It's not my way or the highway.

Yeah. So I heard three things in there that I think are great. Number one, affirming the gift, affirming the message, affirming the work. Whatever your context is for delivering feedback. Right. Number two, making it clear that you're there to support them, to help them, not to criticize. And then, number three, yeah. Coming to the table with, hey, I think this is wrong, but here are some ideas of the solution. That's super, super helpful. All right, how about the other side of the table? How do you receive feedback? Well, what do you see authors failing at? Or maybe you failed in receiving feedback from your superiors at Penguin Random House? What have you learned about what it looks like to receive feedback effectively?

Well, you're speaking to someone who struggles.

With perfectionism, so wrong person asks this question too. I know, I'm just kidd.

Feedback can be your friend, but it first is your enemy. It feels like my enemy at first. It feels like I have sometimes professionally failed or I have made a bad choice. And if I had only or should have, would have, could have. I spend some time sometimes in that space. I will tell you, though, that I have learned feedback really is something that can be used for good. It can really, if I have my hands open and if I hold my. All of the work I do, my vocation, if I hold that loosely, I am able to receive that feedback knowing that the correction will result in something better on down the road. Yeah, it can be hard, though. I will say it can be hard for anybody to get feedback and feel like they've made a mistake or I want to defend myself, I would like to tell you why I did it such and such a way.

Right, right, right.

And to really listen, to take that in, to think about it, my process for receiving feedback is to listen to what, say it's my superior, to what my superior has to say, and then to ask, is there anything else you want to contribute to that? And then to say, I'm going to need to take however much time. Usually I give myself 24 hours to think about it. If it's. If it's really highly critical feedback or crucial to shaping my job, then I will take at least 24 hours before I do anything regarding acting on it. But I do tell whoever is delivering that feedback, I'm going to take some time. I will come back to you. I will likely ask questions. So I've affirmed they've given me feedback. At the same time, I still have left the door open to come back and revisit it.

Is that because you're emotional when you're receiving the feedback? Is that why you wait 24 hours?

Absolutely. I'm not gonna lie. It's. It can be a challenge. So, yeah, I need to. I know myself well enough to know that I need that time not only just to sort of take a step back and also to bring it before the Lord and pray about it.

Yeah. All right. So I have to call myself out here. You know where I'm going with this.

Yes, I do.

So I'm gonna give everyone listening a terrific example of not doing what Becky is wisely suggesting. And listen. Like I talk about the importance of seeking out feedback all the time. I talked about Master of One. We talk about it countless times on my podcast. And yet you can forget these things. So when Becky, when you first gave me feedback on redeeming your time, I was incredibly arrogant, incredibly defensive, and I had to call you back. I don't know if you remember this. I called you back, like two hours later. I was like, hey, I screwed up. I'm sorry. Thank you for being an advocate. And it was a good. It was a great, humbling reminder for me of two things. One, your editor, or for you guys listening, your boss, your partner, your spouse, whatever is there to make you stronger. They have your best in mind. And number two, while they aren't always the most qualified person to prescribe a specific solution to say, hey, instead of doing this, you have to do this, they are absolutely the most qualified person to diagnose the problem. Right. And if an editor or a boss or a spouse says, hey, something's problematic here. I've just learned to accept that, yes, this is a problem 100% of the time. I just assume, you know what? You're right. This is a problem. Let's work together to find a solution. But that was a great example of my hypocrisy on the first round of redeeming your time. That was fun.

I see it differently, Jordan, but I appreciate you bringing that up because I know that the developmental letter can be a challenge sometimes for authors. I know that that part is the sort of first and biggest hurdle. No matter where we are in the editing process, that's always really the first time you hear from your editor, the feedback about the book, about what we need to change, what areas need to be corrected. So I know that that really is the spot where I'm. If I'm going to hear back from an author, that generally is where I'm going to hear back.

But listen, as a testament to how good you are at your craft and how important feedback is, let's bring this full circle. The book came out yesterday, and the reviews are off the charts.

They are off the charts.

I've never seen reviews this good on one of my books, and I largely credit you for that and that feedback. So thank you, Jordan, publicly.

Well, this is mutual admiration. Thank you. I will say this, too, Jordan. You upheld one of the principles that I hold most dear when I am in a cycle of feedback with an author or even with a boss, and that is to keep short accounts. If there is something that is weighing that didn't land right, that needs to be addressed, I'm a firm believer in do that as soon as possible. Do I take 24 hours sometimes? Yes, absolutely. But I do not like that account lingering and going into collections on down the road because we know. Well, I know from experience, that becomes a massive problem. So you did exactly what I appreciate.

That's a terrific piece of feedback and advice for the audience. All right. So, Becky, you know, sometimes on the podcast, almost every episode, I love to ask about people's daily routines. So what does your day look like? I've never asked you this. From the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed.

Well, every day is slightly different, but I do have these sort of anchors throughout the day that are the same every single day. So I do wake up and I'm a little bit more of a morning person. But I start with coffee and get my youngest, who's the only one that is at home right now, we met Annie we get her on the bus and I spend the first half hour of the day when she's on the bus. I spend the first half hour of the day in reading, reflection, devotions, whether it's the daily office or some Bible study that I'm working through that ends at about 7:30. And then from 7:30 until 8, Mark and I take a walk.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yes. You met Mark. You know that we have a dog that's hyper and that dog needs to go out. So we have taken. We've chosen to sort of develop that time into walk the dog and talk about the daytime.

And for those who don't know, Mark is your husband.

That's right, yeah.

And your dog is the craziest dog I've ever met. So that's. I love, I love that habit. All right, so you're back at the house at 8 o'. Clock. What happens then?

I sit down and start work. And I work, I do. My work day is structured a little bit different than every day. But most days I start with email for about a half an hour and then I get into some deep work. If I'm able to do editing on Thursday and Friday, those are my deep work days. I know that Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday I am spending time in those very meetings that we just discussed. Whether it's a vetting meeting or if it's a sales meeting, marketing meeting. Those meetings tend to happen on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. So those days look different until about lunchtime when I do actually take another walk. I either get up and walk around the block or I go and meet a friend for lunch. There is a break at lunchtime?

Yeah. Good.

Then the rest of the afternoon tends to be a little bit more unstructured in terms of what I can do. I can guide my time accordingly. If it's an author call or if it's a manuscript development at the very end of the day, which for me, my workday is eight to four. So at 4 o' clock, I'm up again and Mark and I actually reconnect for another walk because we need to take that dog out again and we talk about what's ahead for the evening. Yeah. So this is just us checking in. I know you have a system a little bit like that in your book. This is our way of doing it because from 4 o' clock until bed, bedtime really is go time. We've got any to after school activities, we've got dinner, a workout, and then it is evening time until I usually crash around 8:30. So I'm not that excited. Right there with you.

I'm right there with you. I'm just as boring as you, man. So that night we had dinner at your house. We were both up way past our bedtimes, man.

Absolutely.

Hey, so speaking of habits and routines, I think the most effusive praise I got from you on redeeming your time was on this picture of Sabbath as a feast in my chapter on productive rest. So I'm curious. I'm curious if you remember it. That'll be a good test of the book here, but would you mind sharing that picture with our listeners and why you found it to be, I don't know, so, so meaningful to you, Jordan.

I have referenced that passage again and again with so many people. I can't wait for your listeners to read this book. And to get to the Sabbath section. There is. Your book is cram packed with important material with God, with how Jesus spent his time, how we can redeem our time. There are tips and methods for readers on every single page. Then we get to the Sabbath section, which is just this beautiful coda to what you are telling people throughout the book. And the Sabbath is really this picture. You paint this picture of us as servants of Christ all week long, spending time serving the body of Christ. And we are at a. I think you have a banquet hall table imagery in the hall.

You're nailing it. I can't believe you remember this. Yeah.

Oh, I love this. You guys have no idea how beautiful this imagery is. And I. I think every single time we went through the manuscript, Jordan, I commented on how much I love it.

Yeah.

Anyway, you've got this imagery of the banquet table and serve us as the body of Christ are serving at the table. All week long we are putting on dishes, taking dishes up, putting food in front of people. What we're doing is serving the body of Christ. And then on the Sabbath, you say in the book so beautifully, that's when we are invited to sit at the table with Jesus and enjoy that banquet with him. And that stopped me in my tracks because I don't think I've ever thought about sitting at a table with Jesus and enjoying the banquet with him as that Sabbath gift. I know in. In eternity we will do that. There will be that great feast. The weekly experience of that, that foreshadowing, it just meant so much to me because that is the gift of Sabbath that God gives us, that I don't know that we always pay attention to. So in the book, you're telling readers to Take that gift and restore your souls because you actually get to sit and enjoy instead of running around like crazy.

Yeah.

All week long.

And I think I'm trying to help readers make the shift that I had to make mentally of growing up and viewing Sabbath as this legalistic life sucking chore. This day filled with things that we, we can't do.

That's right.

Rather than things we get to do. Right. And that's the idea of the, of the feast. It's no, we are children of God. We are working towards a day in which we will feast on the new heavens and the new earth with Jesus. And Sabbath is a foretaste of that. Once a week. That's the idea.

I love the idea that we get to release the shackles of the sort of constraints of our week. We do know, I mean, if we are working to God's glory, we know that we have responsibilities all week long.

Yes.

And we don't bear those lightly. I, I think they're, you know, if you are working at a world class level in your profession, you do take those responsibilities seriously, as you should as, as you approach Sabbath. And you have a day where you have no responsibility except to enjoy what God has given you. That's a vacation once a week. That's an exhale that many people don't experience. And I do think that we're poorer for it because that hamster wheel is not doing us any good.

I think you cut this out of the book. I can't remember. I know it's not in there. I'm pretty sure you cut it.

But exactly.

Hey, kill your darlings. Kill your darlings. Stephen King. I'm rereading on writing right now.

Well, that is one of. We'll talk about that later.

So great. All right. So no, but, but in the book, and I think the very first draft I said how I don't take a lot of vacation time, like very little. I think in the last two years now this has been Covid. Right. So it's a little unfair. But no, let's say the last three or four years, I've probably been averaging maybe a week a year of true time off. And I'm not advocating for that. I'm not saying that that's the right amount. Right. But here's what I will say. Even though I've been taking far less vacation, I am way more rested than ever before. And the answer, sabbath. I have 52 quote unquote vacation days a year. And by the way, Sabbath is 10 times more restorative than A week at Disney with young kids. Right? Like, that's. That's the idea. All right. Hey, when we were having dinner with your family, you mentioned that you've been talking about redeeming your time with some friends outside of work. I know you've been sharing the Sabbath imagery. I'm curious if there's anything else that you've been talking about about the book. Like, what do you remember six, nine months after reading it?

You know, there are a lot of passages that stuck with me that I have repeated again and again. There are two that I have claimed as my own. No, I. I am not.

Please. I mean, they're essentially your own co. CEOs of this book, right?

That's exactly right. But first of all, Back to vacation. 52 vacations a year is an incredible, incredible gift. And even when you have young kids, it's possible. Yes, it can happen because of the way you establish the boundaries around Sabbath and the way you work for Sabbath. You work to make that Sabbath a relaxing and enjoyable experience from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday. So it can be done even with young children. So, getting back to your question, I love that you gave this life hack. In the book, you talk about social media and how we can use it for our good, but we also can sort of lean into the other direction and it takes over us and we feel like we need to be the first person to know the news. We need to be the first one to report on a new development or did you hear such and such when we're talking with our friends? And that is not always a healthy pursuit because we don't need to spend all of our time scrolling through the news when we have other work that God's put in front of us. So what you encourage the readers to do is to let your friends curate the news for you. And by that, you simply don't need to read the news. Because the next time you get together with your friends, they will be the ones that will say, did you hear such and such? Did you know that this happened? Or this story developed in a certain way?

So I'm going to stop you for just a second. I haven't told you this. No, no, no. That was exactly it. I haven't told you this, but I've been walking through an advanced copy of the book with some readers. And this practice, this is one of 32 practices in the book. It's called let your friends curate the news for you. I think is everyone's number one, maybe number two practice in the Book, they love this. And if I recall correctly, didn't you try this out at the beginning of 2021 when the Capitol riots and all of the craziness of our world was going. All right, tell, tell our listeners what you did and what your experience was with this practice.

Well, I had just been reading the manuscript and when Jordan's passage, when your passage said let your friends curate the news for you, I got that all over feeling like this is exactly what I need. The Capitol riots had been happening. Covid was still, you know, in full swing. Unfortunately it still is. And we also had some post election trauma that was going on. There was just so much negative doom scrolling as it's called. There was so much negative happening. And when I read that section in the book, I, I was convicted. Stop reading the news. Do not sit down in the morning at 7 o' clock and start with the news and then get into your devotions. And what I was doing was starting with the news and saying, oh, maybe there's this I can pray for, maybe that I can pray for. That was sort of, I was parlaying the, my devotions into a reading to our mind, the news into my reading and praying time. All that to say I stopped cold turkey. I stopped cold turkey. I took my news app off my phone, I turned off my alerts, I took it off my desktop even. And I think for three months I did not read or check any social media forms of news. Now we do get the Wall Street Journal. So I did read on long form, but no social media news digesting. And that was consuming. I should say that was an incredible break for me because I missed nothing. Jordan. Anytime I got together with people, they would say, did you hear such and such about such and such the capital rut? And I would just say, no, I didn't. Can you tell me about it?

Exactly. It's this bizarre form of delegation.

It's an amazing form because your friends then are, are excited to know something that they know or that they took interest in. And you get to learn from their perspective. And whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant.

Right.

You get to go and fact check if you want to or don't.

Yes.

The news does not change the way God calls us to move in and out of the world. I think that we really still are. We need to keep our hand on the plow and continue to work.

One more question on this topic and I want to HEAR youR, your second big takeaway from the book. When I weighed back into the news, that is when Covid started to spike and I needed to. Right. Get information about mask orders or whatever. I find I am exponentially more anxious. Like it's not even close. I'm curious if you saw a connection between less news and anxiety.

I think I know that I saw the connection because I know my kids noticed it. Oh, interesting. Kids are truth tellers. They will tell you if your breath smells or if you're upset or if you're, you know, mom, you are cringy. Whatever it is, they're gonna let you know.

That's hilarious.

I know. Turning off the news for three months. I do remember it was probably about April when I started to tune back in again because I was. For whatever reason, I needed to know the same thing. How was the end of the school year going to go? So I had to tune back in. But I have not tuned all the way back in Jordan. Just so you know. I have found this sort of happy medium. Anyway. My oldest daughter, who is a sophomore in college, had said to me one afternoon, we went for a walk. She joined us in the afternoon. She did say, mom, why are you so happy right now? Usually at the end of the day, you're feeling stressed. And I didn't put it all together at that moment, but she noticed. And I. And I do think it was because I wasn't reading the news. I was not talking continually about what was going on and what was happening and running that sort of narrative all the way through the day. So I love it. She. I know she was the first one to notice it.

I love it. All right. What's your other takeaway from the book?

You have something in the book when you're talking about making your priority lists and you worked with your CEO or your co. CEO, and the two of you had a bit of a pact where you would talk about the lists that you both had going and you would call it the do not.

Yeah. The Stop doing meeting.

The Stop doing meeting. And I love that idea. So I. I have tried to also incorporate that into my priority list.

Yeah.

Is things that. That are simply do not need to be done, but I'm doing because I've always done it that way.

Yeah. So this is in chapter four about prioritizing our yeses. Right. Jesus didn't say yes to everything. He was clear on what his priorities were, and we got to do the same. And part of that. Yeah. Is I think, bringing accountability to your to do list, showing it to somebody else, saying, hey, listen, here are the goals that I've set out for the Next three months that I believe the Lord is calling me to chase after what on this to do list doesn't make sense in line with those goals. And yeah, I used to do this with the co founder on this business that I ran. We would do this like once a week. And we were ruthless. We would just kill stuff on that to do list all the time. And so if you're listening, give it a shot. Number one candidate to take off of that list and then stop doing meetings are recurring tasks. If you get recurring tasks or projects, you put them on there two years ago and you haven't questioned them since. Look there first. I can almost guarantee you'll find useless stuff that you could take off of your to do list. All right, Becky, you know, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one. Really excited to hear your answer to this. Which books do you gift most frequently to others?

Well, I have three that that I gift frequently. And number one is for the friends in my life who want to write who are interested in pursuing a manuscript. You can imagine I get lots of people that talk to me about a great story idea, they might have a great manuscript they want to write. And so I recommend a book you already mentioned earlier and that is On Writing by Stephen King.

I read this the other day. It was in time magazine's top 100 nonfiction books of all all time. That's pretty mind boggling.

That's amazing. You just curated the news for me. I didn't know that.

It's so great.

It is so good. And you. It's a bit of a autobiography at the same time. So that one is one for the aspiring writers in my life. And then I love Mary Oliver's Devotions. I don't know if you've read any of her poetry before, but it is collected into a work called Devotions. And Mary Oliver is, in my estimation, she's on the same sort of plane as Wendell Berry, if you like Wendell Berry. Just this sort of nourishing, life giving writing that makes your heart rate slow down. Yes. The third one is the Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. And that is a. It's an illustrated book with the. Have you seen it? Have you read it?

No.

Okay. This is a beautiful book. It's illustrated with truths all the way through. It's just little short snippets of poetry or truth that the boy, the fox, the mole and the horse are all talking and they are guiding, they're walking each other through life. And for some reason this book is stunning and it has been on the New York Times for years and years and years, and people can't get enough of it. And I'm one of the people that can't get enough of it.

Heard of this book? How have I not heard of this?

Yes. Well, I'll make sure that you.

All right. So amazing recommendations from an exceptional editor. So you guys can find Those books@jordanrayner.com bookshelf all right, Becky, who do you most want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith influences their work?

I would love to hear from David French.

Yeah.

Have you. If you have not followed him, he is definitely worth following. He is the most articulate on current events and our role as Christians, as followers of Christ, intersecting with current events and culture and what our response is, how to bring the kingdom on earth really is what he's doing so well.

He's brilliant. That's a great answer.

Brilliant, Brilliant.

One thing from today's conversation, you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off.

That's a great question. I.

So you know what I used to ask? I used to ask this, like, terrible question. It was like, what's one thing, one piece of advice? You want to lead people. It's like, yeah, people. You can't distill down a life's worth of wisdom into one thing. So I'm just like, yeah, from today's conversation, one thing you want to highlight? Yeah, it's much more manageable.

I think I said it early on, and I really mean it when I say to not get too attached to the results, to me is the sort of guiding principle for what it means to be a daughter of Christ in the workforce. The results are just results. That is not who I am. It does not define me. It doesn't change me. It doesn't change my position as a Christian. So I have learned through the years to not get too attached results. And. And part of that comes with holding things loosely. So I think I was. I think I said earlier to hold things loosely. And that's really what I have to do, is to say, this is the work that God's given me right now. The results are up to him, and I will do my best with the giftings that I have, and then I'm able to really relax into that.

Yeah.

And to trust that he will walk that out the way he intends.

You're gonna love the manuscript I'm working on for you right now.

Why is that?

I haven't even told our listeners what it is, but I just finished writing about this this morning, this very topic. And using a John Piper quote that I just love. I've said it probably a dozen times on this podcast. Our job is faithfulness. God's job is fruitfulness.

That's exactly right.

Right. Like, we have just got to be faithful to do the work and trust God for the results. Because, listen, not doing that is just failing to recognize truth. God produces results alone through our work. We just get to be his vessels. Hey. Hey, Becky, I want to commend you seriously for just the terrific work you do. For reminding us of the Jesus like humility required to accept feedback well and master our crafts. And thank you for just bringing such influential books into our lives over your long career. And on a personal note, thanks for helping make Redeem youm Time a much, much better book. And thanks for hanging out with me today, Becky.

Thank you for having me, Jordan. It was a pleasure.

Man, Becky is seriously the best. I hope you guys love that episode. Hey, you only have a few more days to enter. To win this trip I'm giving away to the Holy Land. Or if you don't want to go to the Holy Land of the next few years, you can get a cash prize of equivalent value. It's almost $5,000. I'll write you a check for it if you win the sweepstakes. Here's how you do it. Go get a copy of Redeeming your time right now. It's out as of yesterday, wherever books are sold. So that's step one. Then go to jordanrayner.com fill out the form right there, and you'll be entered to win. And listen, if you want to increase your chances of winning, get a couple of copies. You can get up to three entries into the sweepstakes for each copy that you order. So you can do one audiobook and one hardback or two hardbacks. Whatever it is, go get your books. I think you're gonna love it. Guys, thank you for tuning in to the call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.