Benay Shannon (Master Distiller at Restless Spirits)

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Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as housekeepers tree trimmers and climate scientists. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to B. Shannon. She's the co founder of Restless Spirits distilling company in Kansas City. The business was named Missouri's distillery of the Year every single year since the.

Business opened in 2016.

Benet and I recently sat down to talk about why she is totally convinced that God has called her into the dark alcohol industry.

We talked about why a biblical theology.

Of heaven will inevitably lead us to.

Create anti bucket lists.

And we talked about how thinking of work as a rehearsal for the eternal takes the pressure off of the temporal.

Today, I think you're going to enjoy this thought provoking conversation with my new friend, Benet Shannon. Benet, Shannon. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thank you, Jordan. This is kind of exciting.

All right, so I got to ask this. You're in Kansas City.

Yes.

Second home of Taylor Swift. You knew this is coming?

No, Please tell me. No, no. Okay.

No.

Please tell me you've got a spirit in the pipeline being branded in Taylor's honor. This has to be happening.

Well, no, come on. Yeah, there's sprites and trademarks and things.

All right, so, hey, your BIHO starts with this great line. It says, Ben A. Shannon is a science teacher turned distiller. There's got to be an amazing story behind this. Like, what happened? Did you accidentally make gin in a lab? Like, how did this career transition happen for you?

The origin story. Every great hero has an origin story. So I always blame my husband because it's definitely his fault. No, I really had no intention of ever having anything to do with alcohol. Maybe one of the reasons that I do such a good job with it is that I was never really interested in it. But when our kids grew up there, they both went to college at. Now they're all grown, and that's a whole nother story. But when they, you know, my husband, he's always been in branding and he really wanted to start his own company. He began kind of noodling this idea of taking all of his experience with brand development and then starting his own thing. He thought that maybe he would be a consultant, but then stumbled on this growing cottage industry called craft distilling nobody'd ever heard of. But it came into existence post 9 11. It was actually a fallout from 9 11, which we could talk about that too, if you want to know. But this light bulb went on and he said, hey, this is. This is just a branding game. I could totally do this. So he started Playing around with it in the basement, in the backyard. And honestly, I didn't pay much attention because I'm thinking, it's just another hobby. Whatever. It'll go away. It's like, learn to play golf. Play golf for a bit, and then give it up. Whatever. But after a couple months, he got frustrated, and instead of quitting, he turned to me one day and he said, hey, you know, science. You could figure this out.

That's amazing.

For some reason, I just said, okay, yeah, I think I probably could. Accepted the challenge. And then we spent about four years studying and learning the industry, writing a business plan. Every time we hit a roadblock, though, it just. I would be like, lord, this would be a great time for you to stop this right now. This. That would be fine with me. If you want to just take this roadblock and make it a stop sign if I'm not on the path you want me to be on, this is the roadblock that stops us. But darn if he didn't just move the roadblock every time. I'm like, are you kidding me? This cannot be in your will. I mean, I had some serious arguments. It's like, God, are you serious? This really.

Why.

Why would we be here? And I legitimately did think about that a lot. Like, why are we here? A lot of study, a lot of prayer, a lot of scripture reading. And I just got to thinking it must be that this is. It's a dark place. We don't run from the dark. We're not afraid of the dark. God says over and over, don't be afraid, and that he is light even in the darkness. So I was like, well, okay, I guess this is my darkness. This is where I have to work. Which is crazy, because I am not an outgoing person. I'm not. I mean, I've always been afraid of the dark. Like, as a kid, there were monsters under my bed. You know, this is not me. But every time we had a roadblock, he would just. He would just move it. And I was thinking about it when I was preparing for this. You know, if I ever wrote a book about this, I'd probably call my book. Did you really just do that?

No, I love it.

And we traded some messages, but before, because, listen, Scripture is abundantly clear that drunkenness is a sin, which is probably why you had some serious conversations with God about going to this industry. But what you said, and I love this. I'm going to quote you to you for a second. You said, quote, I spend a great deal of time during the course of my work in places many would consider.

Dark, people go there to hide.

And if I don't go there and.

Be an example of a loving, caring, Christlike Christian, the only quote unquote Christian they would know are the ones who.

Sent them into hiding in the first place. And I was just like, dang, wow.

It did I write.

You said that I was gonna say.

Maybe you should write a book. No, but talk, talk more about this because, I mean, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. You know, Jesus spent the vast majority.

Of his time at the lost.

Yes.

And a lot of the Christians I.

Know today spending the vast majority of their time with the found. Right. And as you have met the lost kind of where they are, have you seen God use your presence there to get. Not necessarily to convert, but just to give the lost a more winsome picture of what Christ actually looks like?

I would like to say yes with all confidence, but a lot of times.

I don't know, you're planted seeds, you don't see them necessarily sprouts.

Right, Right. And I don't know if I'm even planting seeds. Sometimes I just feel like I'm just pulling weeds and picking rocks. It's like, okay, I'm preparing the soil and maybe somebody will come along with some seeds. But in the last 10 years that I've been doing this, I think I've actually spoken about my faith. Straight up about my faith six or seven times.

Yeah.

And it's not that I'm trying to hide it. It's just this is not the place where you flaunt it. You don't bring it out and wave it around like a flag. People, like I said, they're hiding in these dark places. And it's kind of like that. It's kind of like if they know where you're coming from, they're just going to walk away from you. But if all they see is your heart without knowing right up front where that heart's coming from, then they'll take the time to sit with you. They want that love, they want that caring. They want what your heart has. But they don't know where it's coming from. They just know that it's there. And over time, a relationship can be established or a trust or something, and maybe there might be an opportunity to go that next step. But like I said, it's really just about working the soil, softening the dirt a little bit.

It's good. You've been reading this advanced copy of my new book, the Sacredness of secular work. And I'm arguing that for the first time in church history, literally the very first time, the only time in the last roughly 200 years, we have started treating the Great Commission, which is indeed great and non optional, as the only commission Jesus gave us.

And that, and that's problematic for a lot of reasons.

One of which is that ironically, when.

Pastors and Christian leaders treat the Great Commission as the only commission, they make Christians like you feel guilty for working.

In the very places most likely to carry out the Great Commission and be salt and light in the world, especially in this post Christian context. I know you, you highlighted that section in the book because you told me you highlighted that section.

Yes.

Have you experienced that guilt personally?

And if so, can you put words to that? I know we don't have a ton.

Of pastors who listen to the show, but we have some. And I want them to hear what.

This guilt feels like for the mere Christians in their pews.

Well, a lot of the guilt comes from my, you know, from the past experiences with church. So I will tell you right now, I'm not going to church right now because I'm afraid to. I'm not sure where I would be able to go and not be criticized for the work that I'm doing. Although, you know, I have a virtual Bible group and they're all super supportive, no problems there. You know, it's like I've not had anyone come to me and say, that is so sinful, you should not be doing that. What are you thinking? And nothing like that. But I still, because of what I expect to feel, I still avoid it. I don't tell a lot of people that this is what I'm doing. Yeah.

I would argue that one of the only ways that mere Christians can be freed from this guilt of feeling like second class Christians is seeing the intrinsic value of their work. Right. I think most Christians understand that their work has instrumental value, meaning that their work does matter to God because they can leverage it to the instrumental end of quote, unquote, sharing the gospel. Right. But what the vast majority of Christians in my experience don't see is the intrinsic value of their work. How their vocation matters beyond evangelism. How would you describe the intrinsic value of the work you do building this distilling company?

Well, I would say that the key point is it gives me access to the dark places, but in a way that's reverting back to the instrumental value. I almost feel like it is.

Go deeper. Yeah.

I almost feel like I have to point to that. It's like, well, you know, I can use this to get there where these people are.

Yeah. This is the water we swim in. It's hard to get out of it.

Right, right, right. And I feel like if I'm not pointing to that, then I have no value. But I think being able to create things and explore new flavors and new experiences and, I mean, I looked up a lot of verses about alcohol, as you can imagine, and, you know, it's a gift from God. Drunkenness is a sin, but drinking is not. Wine is in every celebration. And there's nothing about wine that's not alcoholic. It helps people connect. It helps brighten the eye. It helps you smile bigger. I mean, there's just so many things about winning alcohol in moderation. That's not bad. And so I try to remember that. And then I was wondering the other day, thinking about learning things to use on the new earth. It's like, would we even need that? Would we need alcohol? Probably not. We wouldn't need it. Would we still want it? I don't know. What's that gonna look like? Maybe I'll just be playing with flavors in a different way. Or maybe. Who knows? So exciting.

Yeah. But there's intrinsic value, knowing that in.

Genesis 1, in the first commission, this call to fill the earth and subdue it, to make it more useful for other human beings, benefit and enjoyment.

That's what you're doing when you're making.

A bottle of wine. Right. Isaiah 65 describes eternity not as this eternal hillsong concert, but by building houses and dwelling them in them, planting vineyards.

And eating their fruit.

Right.

And if that's what we were created to do in the beginning, what we'll be doing on the new earth to God's glory forever, then clearly the work we do today has got to have.

Intrinsic value to God. Speaking of the new Earth, by the way, we both already hit on this. You mentioned me before that you loved Randy Alcorn's book on heaven, which I'm a super fan of, one of the books that most shaped the sacredness of secular work.

And you told me that replacing these.

Half truths about heaven that are peddled by culture with the whole truth that we see in scripture has changed your perspective, quote, on almost everything. End quote. How has this biblical theology of heaven, rather than cultural view of heaven, change your perspective on your work?

Oh, so many ways. I just think about everything I'm doing now in light of eternity. It's not trying to make it through and do my best, and. And then Someday I'll go to heaven and do whatever it is people do there. I don't know. But the idea that it's another. It's the real life. I mean, this is dress rehearsal. This is what we're doing now is preparing us for our real life on the new Earth. I mean, I can't wait. It's going to be so incredible. And just to think about everything that we do is just practicing for whatever task God will let us have when we get there. And eternity is huge. So am I going to get to try everything? Because there's so many things that I'm like, oh, I could do that job. Oh, I could do that. Oh, this would be fun. But who's got time to do all of that? Not until eternity. And then it's just going to be a forever of exploring new things. And I think that's my favorite part about my distilling work is just getting to play and explore. And you know, I put new make whiskey in a barrel and it comes out and it's like, wow, that's amazing. It happened. Just getting to explore is just. I don't even know if I answered your question. I just got care.

No. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I mentioned this before, like it, our eternal vocation is filling the earth and subduing it, as Revelation 22 and Isaiah 65 make clear. Then our work today of filling the earth and subduing it as teachers or entrepreneurs or mechanics and distillers is anything but temporal. We are quite literally rehearsing for eternity, or as you put it to me in an email a couple days ago, preparing for graduation, putting it on your old teacher cap. Explain what you mean by that, because I love the way you think about this.

So I was thinking about this, just actually it triggered when I was preparing for the podcast. But I got to thinking that even in our classrooms, as teachers and students in the everyday classroom, we have a tendency to slip into this idea that all we're doing is passing this class. So the purpose is to get in here to learn this stuff, pass this class and then get out of it. But the big picture of going to school and taking these classes is not just to get through it and not just to graduate with certain grades or scores or whatever, but to take a step into your life. So it's all preparing in some way for what you're going to use or what you're going to need in your in your future life. And I think that's what it's like on the old Earth where We are now. Everything that we're doing is not about doing this. It's about what am I learning, what am I gaining, what am I changing into that's going to prepare me for the new Earth? I started looking at everything a little bit differently and like, okay, so maybe this is about distilling, but maybe this is about learning how to be creative, or maybe it's about learning how to be confident, or maybe it's learning about how to reach people differently.

That's really good. Yeah. And so it just, it colors your perspective in the work, in the present. You know, it's interesting. You know, in school, we know when graduation's coming.

Right.

Class of 2004 for me. Right. Like, I knew when that was coming. But with the new Earth, we have no idea what graduation day is. It feels like a really, really long way off because we don't know when it is. How does the knowledge that this life is preparing for graduation or rehearsing for eternity change how you work today? And I know these are fairly new ideas, so you're probably still thinking this.

Out, but how do you see that.

Truth shaping how you do the work of running this business?

Right now, the biggest thing is that it takes a lot of the pressure off.

Yes. Tell me more.

I don't have to worry about what's going to happen because God already has that figured out. He's got the map, he's got the curriculum, he's got. He's got the graduation day. He's got it all figured out. I don't have to worry about that. I just have to figure out what he wants me to do. I don't have to figure out what to do. And so much less pressure. Maybe I won't. Like some of the things. There's always going to be a lesson that you're like, oh, I hate this. Why am I doing this? Who wants to take algebra? Well, I mean, I enjoyed algebra, but that question always comes up, will I ever need this in my next life? And like, well, maybe. Or maybe you'll just need the training in the thought process that you've gained by taking algebra. So, you know, I'm like, why am I doing this, Lord? It's like, oh, you'll see. You'll see. Okay, I'll wait.

It allows you to trust more.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. What do you think would be different about your work if you weren't a follower of Christ Binet?

Well, you know, interestingly, I think it would be easier and harder. It would be easier because I could just fall Right into the character. And I could take advantage of all the underhanded. I mean, let's be real. Alcohol industry is not exactly on the straight and narrow. And I could. I could do all of the underhanded, under the table, behind the back, shifty things that people do to be successful in this business. And it would be easier, quite frankly, but I'm not going to do that. It makes a difference to not do that. It's obvious to people that we're not doing that. We've had people say that straight up to us. You are the best example of a distillery we've ever worked with. They come in, they say, this is the cleanest distillery I've ever seen. And sometimes I also take that into, you know, the office. It's. The books are the cleanest and our behavior is the cleanest. But we're not going to cheat and we're not going to lie and we're not going to bribe, and that hurts us. In this industry, people expect to have their pockets padded and we don't. And so we're not going to be hugely successful in the industry because we won't do those things.

And you've settled, You've made peace with that.

I've made peace with that, yeah.

But this speaks to something really important, right? It's the difference between the world's definition of excellence and God's definition of excellence. Because the world's definition of excellence is being, number one, being the category leader, and doing whatever it takes to become the category leader with all those commercials on the Super Bowl. Right? But God's definition is simply doing our best in accordance with his word, with whatever he's given us. And that's freeing, right?

Yeah.

You know, this sacredness secular work, very theological, but also a terrifically practical book. There's more than 20 practices in the book to help listeners maximize the eternal impact of their work. And one of those practices is creating what I call an anti bucket list, right? Because once we replace these half truths about heaven with the whole truths we see in Scripture, I think we see.

That we will have all eternity to.

Enjoy the best places and food and experiences like riding on your h horse that this world has to offer.

And while Scripture makes it clear that.

Our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

Is by grace through faith, period, full stop, the rewards that believers receive will.

Vary widely based on how we steward this life. And so for that reason, I built an anti bucket list, right? A catalog of things I am not going to do on this side of eternity because I believe in the concrete promise of biblical rewards that are almost all always tied to sacrifice in the present.

And so many other things too. It's like, I would love to fly a plane. I would love to hike all the 14ers in Colorado. There's so many things that would just be so awesome to do. I want to take a raft trip down the Grand Canyon. I may not get those done in this lifetime, but you can't make me believe that those amazing places will not be on the new earth.

Amen. Amen. I couldn't have said better myself. Hey, before we get to our final three questions, I gotta circle back to this idea of Christian community. And I'm thrilled to hear that while you're not engaged formally in a local church, you've got a body of believers you're meeting with on a regular basis. Because I think that's really, really critical.

Very important, because it could be so.

Easy for you in this pretty dark space of alcohol and high alcohol content spirits to.

It's a slippery slope, right?

Like, how is your Christian community encouraged you to think differently?

Just the fact that there is awareness and acceptance so that I don't feel like I'm hiding in the dark doing my work. I am still carrying their light, carrying the light of the Lord with me as I walk into the dark places. Because if I felt like I had to hide what I was doing from the Christian community as a whole, oh, the slippery slope would be really steep. It would be super easy. And I think that's one of the things that God's using this for, for me, is to tell me, you don't. You don't have to hide. See what happens when people hide? It's not a good place. Don't hide. Come out of the dark yourself. Don't hide. And I think that's. That's the value I get from my. My Christian community, my Christian friends, is. Is the sense that I'm not abnormal. I can still do God's work in a dark place.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. I love it. Hey, Benet, three questions. We wrap up every episode with number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

So I obviously thought about this because I listen to your show all the time and there is not a particular book. What I usually do is I think about the person and then I'll look around at the books on my shelves and say, which of these books would speak to this person in the place that they're at? And then I'll let that guide me into something just for them. So there's not a particular book, I don't think. I mean, when there's a really great one, sometimes I'll have my Bible study group. My Christian friend will all read it together. But yeah, I wouldn't say there's a particular one that I would gift.

What's the last one you did with your Bible study?

Right now we're doing the Prodigal God.

It's a great one.

Yes. Oh my gosh. So good.

It's one of my all time favorites.

Yeah, Tim Keller. He's amazing.

It's good. Hey, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the work they do?

Well, I don't know one in particular, but it would be cool to listen to the other side of my industry and have a bartender on. Yeah, it's like how I don't even know if there is one. And you would think that I would have found one by now. But if there's a Christian bartender out there, that would be a unique perspective, I think.

My friend Tina Dare was on the podcast a while back and she used to work as a bartender and it was really good. Like talking about, like real practically, what does that look like as a Christ bar? And it's like, well, hey, listen, you're not pushing alcohol. It's very easy to do that from behind the bar. Right. You're not pushing a second third drink. Right. And so it was, it was really good. I would encourage you to go check it out. Tina's amazing.

I will. I just wrote her name down. I will look for that.

All right, Ben A. You're talking to this global audience of mere Christians, very diverse, vocationally. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?

I just want to re emphasize the idea that you don't have to be afraid of the dark, don't have to run into the dark blindly. But if God calls you into the dark, he's got the light on for you. Go there. He has a lamp for your feet. You won't stumble. He has the light at the end of the trail so you don't get lost. If he calls you there, go really good.

Hey, Bennet, I want to commend you for the great work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for spending your career in a really intentional way that puts you intentionally in close contact with the lost, and for doing the exceptional work of thinking through how this theology of the new earth shapes the work you do today, guys. You could check out Benet's great business. By the way, the branding on y' all stuff is next level. This is your husband who's doing all this branding?

Yeah, he's, he's, we found a designer that we work with, but he's, he's the guiding force behind all the brand.

Oh my gosh. It's incredible. You guys can see it right now at Restless Spirits Distilling. Ben, a thank you for spending time with us today.

Thank you very much Jordan, and thank you for all the inspiration. You help keep me on track, that's for sure.

Hey, I want to know who you.

Want to hear on the Mere Christians.

Podcast, especially if we've called out one.

Of your vocations at the top of the show before but never actually had, for example, a tree trimmer on the show. Reach out to us@jordanrainder.com contact. Guys, thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next week.

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