Bob Goff (Author of Catching Whimsy and Love Does)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right? I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as Epidemiologists, broadcast technicians, and energy brokers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to the legendary Bob Goff. He's the New York Times bestselling author of Love Does Everybody Always and a bunch of other books. He's also a mere Christian who worked as an attorney for 25 years and as honorary consul to Uganda. Bob and I recently sat down to talk about what it looks like to be whimsically available to those that you work with. We talked about how to make the shift from will it work to will it last in your work. And finally, we talked about how God can use working in adventurous places like Disneyland and Kennedy Space Center. Trust me, you're not going to want to miss this short, terrific episode with my new friend, Bob Goff. Bob Goff, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Hey, thanks a million, Jordan. Great to be with you.

Yeah. Hey, so I've loved what I've been reading on this new devotional catching whimsy.

Oh, I'm so glad.

Oh, I love it. And I'm excited to contextualize it to this audience of Christian professionals. I am curious how. How do you personally define whimsy?

Yeah, define it by what it isn't. And sometimes people think of it as confetti and glitter and unicorns and silly. And it's not that. It's actually a strategic whimsy. It's a lot of joy and anticipation. But underneath that is a mile of strategy, which would really appeal if you're in the marketplace that you know why you're doing what you're doing, that you're not just showing up. I just got back from Africa and we have a big chunk of land out there and a school with 1500 kids living in it. I decided to build a university. Now, that isn't whimsical, that's just a university. However, I wanted six giraffes. And so you got to go to the guy that owns a giraffe, which is the president. It was like going to Pharaoh and said, like, you know, set my long legged friends free. And so the whole idea is that there's a big idea that you have that it passes the test of. A lot of us in the marketplace are saying, will it work? And that was me in my 20s and 30s. But now at 65, I'm thinking, will it last? And that pivot is an important one because you want to do more of the things that are going to actually outlast you. And I don't know. And none of us know how many circles around the sun we get, but in this brief period of time we have, I'm just not trying to do. It's not satisfying to say, will it work? But to say, is this thing going to have lasting impact? Is it going to be when the scriptures talk about hungry people, thirsty and sick and strange and naked people in jail, to say, is this kind of like, meet one of those lasting needs? When it talks about widows and orphans, Is there a way to actually do that? Because a lot of us just read things and agree with it, and I want to actually move from agreeing to just engaging.

Yeah, it's really good. I love that shift from what's going to work. I understand that your 20s, when you're trying to provide for your family.

Right.

And you meet those basic needs and you're moving to what's going to last. How's that connected to whimsy? What role does whimsy play for you right now in helping you create and invest your time and things that last?

Oh, yeah. It means constantly doing what Cortez did in burning the ships. Remember that whole, like, shall we leave? And as the last ship is sinking into the sea on fire. So what's your next question? So for somebody in the marketplace, it would be leaving what you're merely capable of to do that sense of calling. And not in a mysterious way, but I put my cell phone number, the back of 3 million books, and that whole idea of availability, that's really, really whimsical. And I get so many calls every day that that idea of saying, can we leave what we're known for and think, what do I want to be remembered for? Right? So if you met me 20 years ago, everybody knows me as Bob the trial lawyer. But at some point I thought, you know, it's a great job, I enjoy it and all that, but I don't feel like it's going to give the lasting impact that as I've evolved as a person. So I just burned the ships. I walked into my own law firm. I started quitting things on Thursday. Every Thursday. I quit. One more thing. I walked out of the 17th floor of this high rise in downtown Seattle, and the receptionist said, who are you here to see? I said, actually, that's my name right behind you. And I realized I hadn't been in my own office for almost a year. And now I went to Seattle all the time to work. But I would go to work, and then I'd fly home to San Diego every single day, fly up in the Morning, I'd fly back. That, in a weird way, is whimsical, because I just. I lived in San Diego, but I practiced law somewhere else, and I just got the cheapest seat on American Airlines. And I would just go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, eating my body weight in peanuts. But it wasn't just that. I started writing down what I thought about things like, write that if you want to lead a noteworthy life, take a couple notes on. What are you learning? What am I learning from you, Jordan? What am I learning from the person around me? Person that bags the groceries or delivers the mail, or people that are noteworthy or notorious? What are the things I teach at San Quentin? I've been teaching there for years and years and years. And there's some pretty notorious people that I'm like, I've read about you. But that whole idea to say, like, what can I learn from you today? I don't go to teach, I go to learn. And there's something beautiful if we can cast ourself. And again, that's whimsy. So somebody walking in to say, I've got the plan. There's nothing wrong with plans. But to say, I've got the plan, and they try to control the room. There's nothing whimsical about that. In its worst form, it's manipulation. In its best form, it's just really, like, organized. And sometime we can organize this child life wonder right out of our life. I teach at Pepperdine Law School, but I also stop at Disneyland on the way, and I'll just go sit out in Tom Sawyer Island. And people know Wednesday 10 to 2, like, when they can find me. Or I'll send out a little something. I'll just say, I'm on Tom Saw island today. And there's something really winsome and lasting about that. Like, that people come up and make yourself available. And there's something strategic about it as well.

Yeah, how is making yourself available? So I think there's intrinsic value in this, Right? This is just a really practical way to love our neighbors as ourselves. But what's the strategic value of your absurdly whimsical availability?

I'm just thinking about the way that Jesus ruled. I mean, here's this guy that knew he had three years to get it done. Like this public expression of love as he's out with people, and yet he's the most available guy I can think of. People are tugging on his shirt, and he's like, who was that? Or a little guy in a sycamore tree. He's like lunch on you. He had time for everybody. And while God is not lost on me, the first thing he made was time.

And.

And sometimes it's the last thing that we make. And I thought rather than being that person that writes a country western song about a big old dog and a big old truck and then people like it and so they stop being available anymore. They have people you have to talk to, or somebody gets a bit part in a movie, or somebody gets a job promotion. Now they're the big cheese in the C suite and they're not available. And I'd say, what if we flip that, let's invert it and see what would happen if we were just weirdly available. If writing books is your thing, put your cell phone number out there and you'll get a couple odd calls. I have. But there's a guy, I don't know what his jam was, but he would call me up and just cuss at me and it'd be like, just amazing. I'm a lawyer. I know most of the cuss words. You come up with new ones. So I would put him in caller ID as a vulgar kid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Vulgar kid. Because I knew I was going to get an earful if he.

But you would answer the call.

I would answer the call and I would end it the same way every time. I'd say, I will always take your call. Because I'm probably the only guy that would take his call because I'm probably not the only one he's going off on. And it's pretty off putting behavior. What if you could be the one safe person in somebody's life? What if you just said, it's not about me and how I'm feeling? I'm not saying you need to be a doormat for everybody, but what if we said this selfless act of love might be to just be available? If you're in the marketplace and you're listening to this, there's this prickly person like, nobody wants to talk to Jim in hr. Sorry, Jim, if that's you listening, but nobody wants to talk to that guy. Be the one guy that doesn't say, how are you? And he says, fine. And he says, how are you? And you say, fine. But say, Jim, what's it feel like to be you today? And let me tell. While you're thinking about that, let me tell you what it feels like to be me. It feels like 100% anticipation and about 80% insecurity. And most people wouldn't guess that that's where I live, in total anticipation. They might figure that out because I'm a pretty upbeat guy, but they wouldn't realize just how insecure that I am. And so a lot of my joy is not fake or fabricated, but it's learning how to cope with my insecurity. These are the conversations I want us to be available to, and we can lead with that kind of authenticity. And what that will breed and is more authenticity, and what that will lead to is greater whimsy.

Yeah. And that sounds so unproductive, quote unquote, by the world standards, to be available like this. Like, I read, I've studied the life of Fred Rogers really carefully. He was radically available to everyone around him, even when he was, you know, at the height of his fame with Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Speak to that and how we as believers should be measuring productivity differently from the rest of the world.

Yeah, I just think there's this thing you're not doing it. It's not a transaction that you're available because you're going to meet people in a moment of desperate need. Like, somebody will be reading a book to their loved one that's in hospice, and they're just pining away the hours together, and they get to the end of the book and they find your phone number, and they don't have anything going on. They said, I wonder if this is for real. And so just two days ago, like, with this really. It felt like this sacred moment with some people that are just in the final stages of life. And then kids, like, the vulgar kid. But there's something that keeps me really grounded, and everybody can decide what level of availability would be comfortable. Sweet Maria Goff, my wife. Like, she's available to me, the people we made, the people they married and the people they made, and that's it. But she's really weirdly available to all of them, so. But to everybody else, like, not so much. But for me, I'm like, tigger, maybe you're the same way. Just be like people. Yes. Like, and we get this little shit. It's described as a vapor that we have this little bit of time here. I just want to be available. What if we just. The more we're known for something. What if we say, what do I want to be remembered for? And I want to be remembered for the most available guy in the room. I'll never be the smartest guy in the room, but I can be the most available guy in the room. And each of us in our own way. And if you're not available. It doesn't mean you're, like, betraying Christ when your phone goes to answering machine and the rooster crows. It's like that. It's just say, like, hey, that's not my jam.

And this is just a different way.

To look at it. Yeah. Yeah. So what if we just lean into whatever is the newest, not the most comfortable version of you or the most familiar version of you, but the most winsome version of you. What do you want to be remembered for? I heard somebody describe it this way. They said to spend 15% of your day deciding what you're going to do the 15% of your life. The last 15% of your life. So plan now for what do you want to be remembered for? And then just start reorganizing some things. And for men, that meant quit my job and I fired myself from my own law firm. I took the key off the ring, I gave it to a guy, said, it's all yours, man. You don't owe me a thing. I've never gone back.

Yeah, I love it. You mentioned Tom Sawyer Island. You're famous, of course, for working in these whimsical, adventurous places like Disneyland. What is working in places like this do for your soul? Like, does this fill you up to work in these adventurous places? And then what does it do for your goals? Do you find you're more productive? Productive as you're working outside of the proverbial box?

Yeah. Location, location, location. Like, I don't want to have a conversation in a boardroom with somebody, hence the name board, because that would be me. But instead, what I would want to do is to say, meet me at Tom Shore island on Wednesday at 3. And if they don't want to pay 110 bucks and get in, that's a bit of a gatekeeper, literally and figuratively. So if people really want to meet, that's a place. If there's people that are really mad at each other, they're just daggers for each other. And they ask me if I can help them kind of navigate that, then I say, Tomso Island. Because nobody yells at Disneyland. Nobody yells at location, location, location. You can scream on a ride, you just can't scream at each other. That's right.

That's right.

So I think that idea. That, again, is strategic whimsy. So as a trial lawyer, I don't know how many cases I would have the litigants meet me at Disneyland if they have to fly in from somewhere. But they need to fly in from somewhere. There's something Beautiful and Windsor. We get to change it up. And just that small little change, it just goes. That quarter twist makes all the difference. There's places that you might meet. It may be a Starbucks or Dippin Dots. I mean, they cost more than drugs, but, like, what a great way to meet. So, like, let's meet for Dippin Dots. You pay. And there's something. The reason I'm thinking about dipping Dots is that was one of the calls I got and from the guy that invented Dippin Dots. I'm telling you, when you write your book and he invented it, as you would imagine by mistake, it wasn't the plan. He was trying to put something else together and then those popped out.

Yeah. I find that working in types of places like this expands my vision for the work. My friend Cal Newport talks a lot about this. He calls this adventurous working. Right. So like I like to work at the Library of Congress in D.C. or Kennedy space center or this is great coffee shop right next to the Golden Gate Bridge called the Interval in San Francisco. And I find that when I do, I don't know, God just reveals things to me in my work. And it just unlocks creative connections that I don't get right here in my home office. Has that been your experience?

Yeah, it's being wonderfully inefficient in the way that you do things. Like if you.

Yeah. You get less done.

Yeah. If you can only get there by cable car, like, that would be the way to do it. And so somebody would say, like, ergonomically, like, that is not the way to do it. But we're not trying to be the most efficient in the way that we love people. We're not being the most efficient because if you've ever had somebody, a former boyfriend or girlfriend that has been really efficient in the way that they love you, it doesn't feel very loving. So the whole idea of Sweet Marie and I like, work in Seattle, I live in San Diego and. And for 25 years I'd go up in the morning, last seat on the airplane, back at night, up in the morning, back at night. And it wasn't efficient. But we're not trying to be efficient. We're trying to be extravagant in the way we love people. It may be outward looking, if this fits with how you were knit together in the factory, that to be extravagant with your love and that just means like spending a little time. And if somebody calls and they say, hey, I wanted to tell you my life story about whatever. And. And I say, oh gosh, I You know, I don't have as much time as I wish I had, but tell me the last couple sentences. Like, I just love to hear the last little bit about where you are right now. And if they respond by saying, well, when I was in embryo, like, oh, this is going to take a while. So what I'll do is I'll then say, hey, here's my email address, bobobgoff.com easy to remember. So just send me an email, collect your thoughts. They're a verbal processor. They'll collect their thoughts and then I could give them a really kind and engaging and meaningful response. And I get hundreds of emails. I love it. It's not what. I'm not looking for new best friends. I just love that idea of honoring people to say, like, you matter, you count. And I would want to be remembered as the guy that answers everybody's emails, the guy that answers everybody's calls.

Were you like this at the law firm?

Let's see, what was I. I was thinking. I was pretty focused because we're handling just the immense things that would take five or more years to get that pig through the snake. So. And there would be, usually there would be. Our law firm would represent the owner of a high rise and there might be 50 law firms on the other side. So I remember being. My recollection of that was being really busy and really afraid that I'd screw up and fail.

Yeah, yeah.

I just didn't. And that's the attribute that you want of your lawyer, a fear of failure.

That's right. That's right. Hire that attorney. So talk to the attorney who's still practicing, who's listening right now, or the executive at Amazon. What does it look like for them to practically be this available when they do have real demands on their time within their role, what advice would you give them?

I would say, once you bring some creativity and winsomeness to what you're doing, go find somebody who's got that cubicle that's out in the middle and swap them offices for the day. But don't make a big deal about it. Just say, let's swap offices for the day. And the whole idea is to be secretly incredible. Don't make a big deal about it and you get a little golf clap. But instead just do that. Because this in reverse economy that Jesus was talking about, like, first is last, last is first, and lead means follow. So if you could just think of 100 different winsome ways, have a jar of marbles, and every time that you have a conversation with somebody that really matters. You drop a marble in there and there's something beautiful that when the person that works for you leaves, they see you put a marble in there, they go like, wow, I got a marble. Like that counted. Like, they're really mad at that conversation. Take notes on each other. Make yourself each other's biographers. Like, so we don't pal around. The people who work with me, they have their lives and we're busy doing stuff. But we honor and respect one another. We know enough to check in and they check in on us. There's something about that disclosure to let people safe people in the door a little bit. And I just think there's win some ways at the lunch break, go wash somebody's car. Just find the messed up car to fuss with somebody's like fancy car because you'll scratch it and owe them a bunch of money. But just find somebody's like worked car. Ask them when they walk into your office, hey, what was your first car anyway? Dad, tell me this Jordan. What was your first car?

I had a Ford Taurus. It was a boat. It was a silver Ford or actually I just saw this car inside the Chick Fil a lobby. True. Cathy has no in his collection. What was your first car, Bob?

Yeah, it was a light blue. I want to stay away from baby blue. It was a light blue Volkswagen Beetle. And I can remember the interior was black. It had a cassette, am, FM, cassette. But if somebody asked me, what is your fifth car? Or if said Jordan, what was your fifth car? I'd just be like, just say it fades. So we always remember that first first day at school, first kiss, first time you touch knees, first job, first whatever. So I would say for that employer, somebody in the C suite, somebody that's the lawyer now, I would say, what was the job that you wanted like when you first got this? What were you out for when you first set sail? When you cast your lines off and said at first you just wanted to make rent? I mean it was really I wanted to make rent. You know, Burger King and rent. I was pretty much handled. And then your life got more complicated. I wonder if you could find your way back to your first love. That's how revelations too that my problem with you is this, that you forgot your first love. So if we could just boil it down, maybe engage in those conversations. It makes me want to ask some of my friends here, like what their first car was. Maybe they're still driving their first car.

But.

But ask those questions, take a genuine interest in other People like there's something beautiful that emerges in that. And all of a sudden work doesn't feel like work. Work feels like a safe place. Work's like a place where people are known and there's a vulnerability and that leads. Vulnerability is the gateway to whimsy.

I think the key to that, to being so others focused is ourselves experiencing the love that we have in the Father and I love. In the introduction to Chasing Whimsy, you tell the reader that you wrote this devotional quote to remind you how over the moon God is about you. End quote. I'm curious for you, Bob. What disciplines do you have in place that you credit with helping you remember how over the moon God is about you personally?

Oh yeah. Here's the first thing I did. I bailed about 30 years ago and having quiet times.

Yeah, tell us more.

Mine are super loud. What I'll do is I'll take everything that I do. I bet I send myself a hundred emails a day. I'm like him again. Block but shards of ideas, things that I'm thinking about, things somebody said, maybe Jordan, something you said that made sense and then want to do that idea of what Paul said to check it against Scripture. So my times are really focused, but I'm trying to get to the truth. Is there something underneath that? For me it's not so I can teach other people, but so that I can arrive. If I came over to your house for dinner, I wouldn't arrive empty handed. I'd have something with me. I'd bring a story or bottle of wine, a bread. I'd like come up with something. And so what if we engage? When you walk in to your workplace, come prepare the first coin ever made in the United States. On one side it said we are one. Think of John 17 like the Father and I are one and that we need to be one. And on the other side it says mind your business. I love that. So instead of just thinking about that, I got the coin and there's somebody that plays a lot of music and they were going through some times I gave my coin. So just like that idea, that's winsome. And so the patterns, the habits that I have. There was somebody who's a friend of a couple of ours here that had gone through a really hard time. And there was this coat I found. It looked kind of like Joseph's coat of many colors. So I said, figure out her size on the sly. I don't look in the cag of her coat that she's wearing or something and let's go get one of those and give her. I love those capers. And, and we don't even need to send something with it. When it arrives, she'll know. She'll be like, ah. I think if we could be loaded with that. If somebody is a reader of Huck Finn's their thing, go find a first edition. Somewhere on Amazon. I've got an old Bible by J.B. phillips. They called it the Cookbook Bible. Way back in the day it looked like there ought to be a muffin recipe in there, but it was like the first living Bible. It was just like in modern day English. And so I will find ebay and find all the Cookbook Bibles I can find. And they're like hens teeth. But when I find one, then at Christmas time I just start mailing them out to people because it's kind of cool.

I love it. It's great. Speaking of which, it reminds me of One of the four rapid fire questions we rounded every episode with number one, looking head to the new Earth. Isaiah 65 says, we're going to long enjoy the work of our hands, free from the curse of sin. What job would you love Jesus the king to give you on the new Earth? Oh, wow.

The job. I would say greeter.

That's great. Oh my God. If that's not your job in the new Jerusalem is greeter.

Yeah, just be like, like this is going to be great. I would tell people when I greet them, get prepared to unlearn a whole bunch of the things you were positive about.

For sure, for sure.

So that would be. So it'd be a greeter with a message and it would be welcome, like awesome. But if you don't like people, I've been watching and, and if you don't like people, you're going to hate heaven.

You're going to hate. You're going to hate it here.

Talk about everybody always. Right.

That's exactly right. All right, number two, we opened up your Amazon order history. What book would we see you buying over and over and over again for friends?

Yes. In addition to Melatonin, you'd find you'd see loads of melatonin. And in addition to that, I think the last book I got, they're usually books by friends. I'm trying to support them because they've just written a book and so I want to bump up their stuff. There was a friend that released a book and I really wanted him to get to be the number one release. So when he got to like number three or number two, I'd buy 50 more books, 25 more books, and 50 had to pump it up. So I think that's where you'd find some weird numbers of books. And then you'd find books like, I got Peter Pine recently. I love that book, because those are this winsome, like that idea. You could take a book and say, I love the introduction to it. Said they're asking Wendy, why do the swallows, like, make their nests in the. Leave in the eaves? And she said, it's because they like to listen to the stories. And I just, like, love so much wisdom there, because the guy at the tire store would understand what that was about.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Hey, speaking of stories, whose story would you like to hear on a podcast like this? What Christian is out there in the world doing really interesting work that you'd love to hear them talk about how their faith influences that work. They do.

Yeah. I think it isn't a name that comes to mind, but it's the guy or gal that no one has heard of. They're just doing faithful stuff. There's a guy named Kevin that comes to mind that's serving people on skid row in Los Angeles. I met him in San Quentin. Now what he does is he makes sandwiches in his kitchen, and with his new wife, Molly, they go and they serve people on skid row. And I'd want to have us learn from him. Like, what are you learning about life and faith? He's never going to have a great big nonprofit. He's never going to have a great big whatever. But he's just a faithful guy like that.

You can send Kevin our way. Those are the majority of our episodes. Janitors, nurses. You've never heard of people who haven't written a book and have a. Have a platform. So I love that answer.

Yeah. Bingo.

All right, Bob, if you could say one more thing to this audience of Christian professionals who want to glorify God in their work, what would it be?

I'll tell you this. I think God takes all of our accomplishments and degrees and really wonderful stuff, and he just makes confetti out of them at some point. It's just like, I'm just picturing that big. Like, at the end of the fireworks show, there's the grand finale where all the fireworks go up in the air. And I think he uses what all of our accomplishments are, not because they're bad accomplishments or they were really noble and it was really great. And then he uses that to celebrate the humble and the poor and the person that is hurting and all that. And he uses that stuff that so that we don't overvalue that, nor do we undervalue that. That your work is noble, like whether you're bagging groceries or leading a Fortune 500 company, it's noble work. And that God will use that to celebrate people that are doing the things that aren't recognized and all that. And so let's just spend our time lighting those fuses.

Bob, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. For reminding us to lift up the humble. For reminding us to exude the whimsy of Jesus in everything that we do. Guys, the new devotional from Bob is called Chasing Whimsy. You can pick it up wherever books are sold. Bob, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thanks a million. I appreciate it. Take the rest of the day off.

I loved Bob's answer to the question of who he would want to hear on a podcast like this. That's who. I want to hear more on this podcast. Here's the challenge though. Mere Christians with no platforms are hard to find, right? We don't know where they are. Their publicists aren't pitching us books. That's why we rely on you, our listeners, to help us find the godliest mere Christians you know who are making sandwiches for the poor, like Kevin, the guy that Bob was talking about, or working a retail job, or are driving an Uber 30 hours a week. Whatever it is, let us know who they are@jordanrayner.com contact we would love to chat with them. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course. I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5MereChristians calm right now to claim your bonuses.