Bobo Beck (Realtor + Author of Wisdom Calling)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

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Two reasons.

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End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or.

Religious professionals, but who work as screenwriters.

Dock workers and musicians.

That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Bobo Beck. He's a Realtor in the top 1% of Berkshire Hathaway's real estate practice who has thought deeply about how the wisdom of God's word shapes his work specifically and our work more broadly. Bobo and I recently sat down to talk about how to distinguish between holy.

Ambition and selfish ambition, how to do.

Due diligence on your soul and not.

Just a deal you're considering.

And we had this interesting exploration about whether or not there would have eventually.

Been Realtors in the Garden of Eden pre fall. I think you guys are going to enjoy this conversation with my friend Bobo back. Bobo back, longtime listener, first time caller. How are you, my friend? Welcome.

I am doing great, Jordan. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here with you.

We were just talking about some of the more recent episodes. I always love asking listeners of the show what their favorite episodes have been. What are some of your favorite more recent ones, maybe?

Well, I've been catching up on a lot of them. I really enjoyed the most recent one. I guess it's been in the fall now with Tim Keller along with him for sure. Even the one I haven't been exposed a lot to Mako Art, a buddy of mine was just in his studio last week actually in New York. So having felt like I, you know, conversed with him a little bit, you know, through your show was super encouraging.

I actually just reached back out to Mako to have him back on the show. We don't have a lot of repeat guests, but he certainly warrants a repeat, as did Tim. Hey, man. So we got to spend some time together in Tampa at the redeeming your time retreat. Had some great conversations there. I'm excited to let our audience in on some of those conversations and I want to start here. You've spent a lot of time studying the biblical narrative of work. You've also spent a lot of time selling real estate. You've had this incredibly successful career as a broker. I'd love to hear you talk about the real estate profession through the biblical narrative of work. Right. So. And let's start in the Garden of Eden.

Right.

Let's assume for a second that Adam and Eve had not messed things up so quickly.

Right.

Do you think we would have eventually seen Realtors senior profession before the fall?

You know what? I've never stopped and considered that. That is a really fascinating angle and a fascinating question. I believe in some way, shape or form. Because I also, you know, when I think of Eden and I think of pre fall state, my mind also goes to the eternal state, the new heavens and the new earth.

Of course, that's where we were headed, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And so I think of kind of, you know, both of those ends of the continuum. And yeah, I think in some way, you know, we're all kind of gifted, certainly with different personalities. We're gifted with different capabilities, different interests and those, you know, look at the garden. I mean, God came to Adam and Eve and said, you know, be fruitful, multiply, have dominion over. I mean, it was a cultural mandate to steward. It was a cultural mandate, as I like to say, guardians. And guardians. I mean, they took that very seriously and had to do with real estate, with the actual land in the earth beneath their feet and essentially utilizing all the different natural resources as they develop their own families and then as civilization began to form. So, yeah, it's certainly a conversation maybe not necessarily about the specific profession of a real estate broker, an agent as we know it in our modern context, but it certainly is an issue of real estate. And certainly as you fast forward in the life and times of the nation of Israel, the chosen and peaceful God, it was all about land, right. It was all about this promise and this vision that went back to Abram and specific, about very specific dimensions about land and what they were to do with it and how they were to divide it and occupy it, which is in many ways what we even do today in the profession.

Yeah, that's fascinating, but obviously the fall has messed everything up, including your profession. My best friend, I don't know if I've told you this, my best friend is a realtor leading an office for Berkshire Hathaway. As you've had experience in, talk about the brokenness of this space, what's broken here specifically and in what ways are you as a Christ follower seeking to renew what's broken in the real estate industry?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of brokenness. I mean, to the point where some days it can get to the point of just discouragement, when you actually stop and consider all the different layers, the dynamics, the history related to real estate and the profession, as well as all the nuance there, even in my own heart and life, you know, as a real estate professional, both as a developer and investor on one side and a real estate agent and a team leader on the other side. Man, I've been reading, particularly in the last several years, just with a lot of Kind of the elevated conversation in our country, in particular about racial justice and racial inequity, and just a lot of the ugliness of and brokenness from our history as a nation has kind of all came out to the surface with the killing of George Floyd there in Minneapolis. And it led me on my own personal journey in a lot of different ways, as I think it did a lot of the listeners here. But there was one book that I really jumped into, particularly being in real estate, and it is called the Color of Law. And it's a fairly dense book, but still fairly accessible. And the author does a great job of going back through just our short history dealing with actual federal laws, all the way down to various state laws across the country, all the way down to cities and townships. And it's a pretty remarkable expose on all the different systems and entities from our federal government all the way to the Oval Office, to senators, state legislators, the banking industry, the regulatory industry, you know, all of these different layers who all had in many ways different agendas. And a lot of the agenda has to do with race and with social class and a lot of different dynamics. And so if any of the listeners are, you know, interested in kind of doing more of a historical dive, or maybe you're in a context that even here where I'm at in Greenville, the conversation every single day is about gentrification and the impact that that's having on long standing citizens and residents and these broader economic factors and movements and how they displace people and, you know, what can we do to be aware of that and to alleviate those things. So the Color of Law is that book. And it just remind me, just in very vivid detail a lot of our history as a nation and as a profession. I mean, even down to real estate associations and their involvement in discrimination, Even homeowners associations, HOAs, and the different covenants that they were able to wield to keep certain types of people out or to allow certain types of people in. So, you know, that's the first thing that kind of comes to mind just from a historical standpoint. And a lot of that still happens. I mean, there was a landmark case and settlement just in the last few years with some realtors out of, I believe, Long island, the state of New York. And this made, you know, CNN, 60 Minutes, all the different national shows with this expose that this type of stuff is still going on, you know, in an industry that's worked very, very hard to try to weed out, you know, any type of inequity or discrimination so.

You'Re bringing up something very specific to the real estate industry. But I do think there's a broader principle here that's relevant to anyone in any line of work. And talking about systemic brokenness, right?

Which stands in contrast to what we.

Talk about the majority of time in our churches, which is personal brokenness. I mean, one of the most memorable things from this podcast over the last year, I think it was Lauren Gill from Redeemer talking about this two by two chart that they put in their terrific little study guide called the Missional Disciple, right? And on the vertical axis of this chart, the vertical axis represents personal brokenness, right? And the horizontal axis represents this systemic brokenness.

And I think a lot of Christians.

I mean most Christians, I would argue, have a very high understanding of personal brokenness. I have sinned. I am a fallen individual. And the only way I can be reconciled to God is through Jesus Christ.

I think we have a very low.

Understanding though, of systemic brokenness, that there are these big systems comprised of sinful human beings that are part of the.

Negative consequences, are part of the curse, negative consequences of sin as applied to specific industry.

When you look at that and you look at an industry as large as real estate and the broken systems, that. That feels so overwhelming, like, so daunting. Like, what can one guy named Bobo Beck do to push back against the brokenness of a massive industry like that?

Like, have you wrestled with that? Have you thought about that? Where have you netted out here?

Yeah, absolutely. And I would agree, and I would just say to any listeners at this point, Jordan, that might be having kind of a visceral reaction. You hear the word system, especially in our very polarized context, a lot of people, you know, they go different places, they will maybe have a knee jerk reaction and say, well, that's just wokeism, or that's just progressive ideology, or that's fill in the blank. And I get all of that. And I'm very sensitive to that. I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about taking a very honest look at the brokenness in this case, in the real estate industry, all the different ancillary players to it. You could look at financing, education, which I've been very involved with as well, international development, politics, healthcare. I mean, on and on it goes, whatever domain or sector. And so, yeah, I mean, look, systems are made up of people. So yes, it comes back down to people. But I think as people leverage their power and their social influence, their cultural influence with other people and begin to create these ecosystems and these networks and these systems that in many cases become codified. Right. So you have different layers of that which become very difficult to influence and to undo. And I think one of the reasons that we're so prone to just go, well, let me just kind of search my own heart, right, and see if there be any wicked way in me, as the Psalmist says, and not kind of these broader systems that we're connected to or a part of. Partly, I think, is because we've just kind of dehumanized the system. Well, that's just an entity, right. So it's easy to compartmentalize that. And secondly, it takes time, it takes effort, it takes honest humility and I think just conversations. It takes an open, reasonable mind to at least engage and to. To have eyes to see and ears to hear. And quite frankly, we're busy, you know, and it takes time to read a book like the Color of Law, which I haven't fully gone through cover to cover, you know, but, you know, that's where we learn. That's where we become informed. And then based on that information, we can then change our own biases or change our own thoughts or change our own actions in ways that we can with our own spheres of influence.

Yeah, it's good. That's really good. It's a really good way of looking at it. So fast forward to the end of history. Isaiah 65 gives us this vision. I love how concrete it is. Right? Isaiah's vision, the new earth. He says God's chosen people will build houses and dwell in them. You think you're going to continue selling homes on the new. On the new earth? We could be making transactions this way.

Have you thought about this?

This concrete promise of homes in our eternal dwelling?

The Lord.

Yeah, I mean, even our Savior says, right, I'm going to prepare a place for you. And in my house there's many rooms. There's different thoughts on what exactly that means. Is it kind of like a conjoined apartment building where all the rooms are connected? The bigger point is that our Lord and Savior, who sits at the right hand of the Father, ever pleading for us and making intercession for us. He's promised to us as his followers that he's preparing in a real estate fashion, some type of dwelling place for us in the eternal state, which is really cool to think about. So in much the same way we know that city, we're all going to be urban dwellers at that point. You know, whether you live in a quaint rural area right now or might Live off the grid or something in Appalachia, who knows? But we're all going to live in a city, you know, and it's called the New Jerusalem. And the dimensions are there, there's different materials that it's made of, there's going to be streets, there's going to be all these different things. So I can only imagine that many of the types of professions which have been created by need, right, based on just the rhythm and flows of our lifestyles, we're going to have to have individuals who are skilled and knowledgeable to be able to transact, you know, will there be a currency, perhaps, you know, what will be the method of exchange? What will be the store of value in the New Jerusalem? Those are all wonderful things. And I think, you know, questions like this Jordan, shouldn't send us into a tailspin of discouragement and frustration, you know, because we don't know all the particulars. And I'm sure many of the listeners here are probably wired that way, right? Very analytical. And I want to be able to study and research and figure these things out. But there's so much of a mystery to it that's just like, trust me, you know, if you could think of the best experience that we have here in our own earthly existence. I mean, 10x that, 20x at 100x that in the eternal state, all without sin, you know, with no complaining, with no bitterness, with no envy and jealousy, you know, all the different things, things that kind of mar our interactions today as professionals, all of that's going to be wiped away. So I can only imagine it should actually lift our gaze and make us long for that day even more.

And that's exactly why I always bring this up, because I do think it leads to tangible hope in the present of being able to do the work we love with the embodied Christ on a new earth that gives further evidence to the power of redemption, that Jesus has not just redeemed our souls, he's redeemed us as holes, as N.T. wright says, and redeemed the entire earth. That is rightfully his right. I think it's such a powerful testament to the power of the cross. So, Bobo, you've spent years honing your craft as a real estate professional, but in the last few years, you've been producing this incredible content under this wisdom calling brand that's helping mere Christians connect the wisdom of God's word to their work.

Why'd you start down this path?

Like, what's the origin story here for you creating this type of content?

Yeah, I really appreciate this. This is, you know, I can talk all day long about real estate and closing deals and, you know, all of this type of thing. But what gets me most excited is more in line with what I believe, you know, God has uniquely called me to do. And part of it goes back 20 years ago when I first moved to Philadelphia, trying to find my way, you know, grew up, born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia, Southern boy, ended up in the Northeast. And I saw an advertisement to recruiting for teachers in the school district of Philadelphia, and I thought, well, this is interesting. Let me kind of click on this. I enjoy kids and that type of a thing. And long story short, I ended up getting into education and serving for about 10 years. So I would say I'm always a teacher. And with that background of engaging students and colleagues and in other roles as an administrator and coaching training type of roles, I've always kind of wore the hat of an educator and a teacher. And being in business the last decade in a variety of different capacities, I never really lost sight of my teacher years and my teacher practice. So I kind of matched that with, you know, day in and day out, just interacting with vendors and clients as well as team members, that type of a thing. And just becoming increasingly burdened some days, frustrated with what I am seeing and hearing and listening to, particularly with those that profess Jesus, those that follow Christ. Ultimately, I decided to lean into that. You know, when you. And this is just step out of this role. For any listeners who are burdened about anything in their life, particularly something that they really believe God's fingerprint is on and that he is giving you a burden and what I would call a holy ambition or vision to do anything, lean into that, like submit that to the Lord, it's most likely from him. But we are now stewards of that, and we have to cultivate it, and we have to evaluate it and allow others who are more gifted than us to come alongside it and fan it and to cultivate it even more. And so I began to just lean into this and said, it's one thing to be burdened about something and say, man, I wish there were more resources to help Christian professionals think more critically. Right? To develop those skills or to think more biblically or to live more strategically and not waste their lives. Well, I can be part of that. I'm uniquely equipped in a lot of different tangible ways to actually begin providing resources to address that and building a brand, as you mentioned, wisdom calling and a platform and start developing resources. That's really where this came out and going through that, I decided to kind of, you know, look at the Scripture in a different way, you know, from the lens of a professional, as an investor in all the different business experiences I've had. And I thought, let me just read through this, just kind of with that lens. And I will say, you know, there's always a danger, right, of. Of trying to pick and choose as we read scripture. Paul tells Timothy, look, all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for teaching, correction, reproof. So, you know, with that biblical caveat. But I wanted to just look through and particularly trace this one theme of wisdom. Because in my pondering and my thinking about the challenges of our just modern age, the modern marketplace, Christians who are in the marketplace, I thought this is really where this conversation needs to land. It needs to land on having biblical discernment, having wisdom, to know how to first of all listen and discern and then adjust our lives accordingly. You know, making decisions, moving forward, just navigating this modern world that we live in and all the noise that is there. So I set out at the end of reading that had a spreadsheet, and I just charted every particular reference that I thought might relate to wisdom and all the different ancillary aspects of wisdom. And I ended up with almost a thousand references. You know, Genesis to Revelation, started going back and looking for themes and looking for ways in which certain doctrines or teachings or topics kind of emerged throughout the Scriptures. And I thought, well, what's more practical than kind of a daily iteration with a reader, with somebody, right? Than a devotional.

I love this. You and I talked about this before. I love this because this is exactly what I did for the Word before work, daily devotional. And I don't think it's coincidental that both of us came to about a thousand passages of scripture that directly speak to this. So you mentioned holy ambition before. In my experience, to talk with mere Christians almost every day. This is an area where people crave a lot of wisdom, Specifically discerning between holy ambition for something and selfish ambition for something. What do we see in God's Word that can help us discern between our more God honoring ambitions and our less than God honoring ambitions.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this could be multiple episodes just in itself, right? I mean, there's so much to unpack with this, But I think so much of this is about really hearing from God, really understanding his Word and how His Word intersects with the uniqueness of our own lives, our own personalities, our own inclinations, our own, you know, cultural distinctions, and just the kind of the complex intersection of all of that. So that's a big part of, I think, discerning how we are uniquely gifted, how we are uniquely wired. It's got to start there, right? That's the context. And I think out of that we have to understand what is our mission, what's our purpose, our identity, what is our unique calling. And you've written a lot about that, particularly in Master of One and then also in redeeming your time. But how does all of that out work with the understanding that true believers in the New Testament fashion, like, we're gifted with spiritual gifts, right? Just in general, and I'm not going to go through all of those. But the spirit of God gives us these charisma, right, These grace gifts very literally so that we might be a blessing to others, so that we might produce good works for his glory and the good of others. So I think in general, it's an understanding of that and leaning into that, seeing that cultivated, and so much so that we do so in a community. You know, I think your local church is probably one of the best contexts to explore what God might be calling or leading us to do, or even this particular urging. Again, we use the term holy ambitions. There's different ways that other writers and scholars have kind of referred to that. But these deep unctions within us that you feel like it has to be done, right? I use the example that Andy Stanley says in his book Visioneering, and he defines vision as a mental picture of what could be, but it's fueled by the conviction that it should be. And I've heard others recently say, actually it must be right. And, you know, what is that for each of us? Just sometimes it's deep within us and there's maybe layers that are kind of covering it up. And we've never articulated these things. And maybe for this reason that you've brought up, like, well, this is all, like, about me. And it's about. Well, yeah, it is about us. I mean, God ultimately called us individually in our uniqueness. And I'm convinced that by his spirit he has given us these also very unique expressions of his grace in our life that should be worked out. They should be brought to the surface so that they can, even as our Savior said, that they may see our good works and glorify the Father who is in heaven. And I'm convinced that there are many of us that maybe we're just too busy, maybe we have imposter syndrome and think, well, I can't, you know, surely, surely that's not me. I can't. I'm not perfect. I don't. Haven't gone to seminary or I don't have this, or I don't have that. And it just still stays within. Right. We've not shared it with anybody. We've not leaned in. We've not really activated. And it is a very real danger. Right. Human avarice and pride is something that God's word says God hates. It's an abomination to him. That's a very strong, perhaps some of the strongest language in the Bible. So, yeah, our pride at any time can mess this up. Right. And evidences of our own brokenness can kind of like weeds, take in and take root and just kind of take all this over. So look, I think it's just a daily connectedness to our Lord and our union with Him. It's a daily connectedness to the vine and realizing the only way we're going to bear fruit is if we have that intimate connection with Him. But we need to bear fruit. Right. It takes work, it takes evaluation, and it takes humility and courage in many contexts to see these things worked out.

Yeah, I think that's right. It's connect to the vine to be able to discern holy versus selfish ambition. It's being connected to community of other believers. But you're right, it's also, at some point, there's this element of courage that God has created us for good works. Right. And a courage to lean into that and to ambitiously pursue the good works that he's called us to do, not for our fame and fortune, but for the glory of God, the good of others.

Right.

I loved. I told you before we started recording, I read every single word of volume one of your first devotional book, Wisdom Calling, which was terrific. I love that you talked about the wisdom of delayed gratification and really pointing to Esau as an example of someone who desired instant gratification. Like, I don't know, every human being on the planet today.

Right. And.

And you alluded in the devotional to a story in your own career where you prioritize instant gratification over delayed gratification. What's the story there? What happened?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've got 60 of these devotionals out, and I'm working on the next 30 right now, so some of this becomes blurry. But I think I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, it was an investment opportunity, you know, unlike, I'm sure, many listeners from time to time, particularly if you have excess resources that God's blessed you with beyond your living expenses. You know, you want to be a steward and you're looking for opportunities to invest. You place that capital, you place that fund somewhere so that it might have a return, right? So you can bless others, you can meet your needs, so on and so forth. So, yeah, I had an opportunity. A friend of mine who became a COO of a new startup and is a guy that I trusted implicitly and had a relationship with him for a number of years and been nurturing that. And that was kind of a right of first refusal, right, where he came to me and said, hey, here's kind of behind the scenes. We're about to go into a fundraise and, you know, I'd love for you to be one of the first ones. And so I evaluated. I had even some of my legal counsel that I trusted for many years as well to evaluate. You do all your due diligence, right? There's a lot of wisdom and discernment in that. And I thought that I had exercised all due diligence and prudence throughout. And I still ended up investing in a startup which there's. There's a lot of risk, there's. Talk to your financial advisor. I am not one, but we talked earlier just about the brokenness, particularly in real estate and whatnot. I mean, that owner had other intentions, you know, and it became. This was a situation where, you know, my interest was kind of paid out over 12 months, you know, each month and every month. It was kind of a chore to even get that. And then it was time to get my principal back. You know, the narrative completely changed. And so just trying to unpack our responsibility to all of that. But looking back, Jordan, I mean, I think, you know, the bright lights just like, wow, I'm gonna get this kind of return. And you look at the best case scenario. And of course we're optimistic and hopeful as we move forward in some of these. But yeah, if I was to kind of unpack some of it, looking back, yes, I did my due diligence from a legal standpoint and kind of evaluating this particular investment opportunity, but I didn't do a lot of due diligence on my soul. I didn't bring others in. You know, I brought the attorneys in, I brought some advisors in, but I didn't bring my pastor in. You know what I mean? I didn't bring my. And I think there's a lesson there that again, we think, well, everybody's got a utilitarian value, right? You've got a utility You've got a value and you've got a utility. But, you know, money is deeply entwined in our very souls, our very existence. And so often, you know, we only go to our advisors. We only go to our asset managers or attorneys in our lives to evaluate these things. And I've learned, you know, very valuable, multiple valuable lessons through that.

So if I can summarize, you don't think it's unbiblical to necessarily make that investment, right? What you're convicted of is, hey, I did the due diligence from a financial standpoint, but I did not bring in wise counsel to really speak to my heart in this situation. Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely. And I honestly, I think especially those that know me best, and there's something to be said about, you know, keeping your advisors close and, you know, not making things public. But, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we don't always. We so compartmentalize, you know, our business and our finances and our money from our spiritual existence, if I can say it that way, or from. From our soul care, you know, and we just. Well, we have these different lives over here, and never the two shall meet. And this is a perfect example where had I really done more holistic due diligence, then I probably would have saw a blind spot of, you know what. Are you sure this isn't instant gratification? Are you sure that, I mean, this 18 return sounds a little too good to be true and you're blinded by that? You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good. I love that. Even just that term, though, due diligence on your soul is, like, very helpful to be keeping in mind when evaluating opportunities like this. I love. You wrote about one of my favorite passages of scripture. In Deuteronomy 8. I quoted a lot, especially verse 18, where Moses urges the Israelites to remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth. Right.

But I'd actually forgotten about something that.

You reminded me of in the devotional. The.

The context and the timing of these words.

This is Moses's final sermon to the Israelites before they enter into the abundance of the promised land. And that, of course, makes that passage feel so much more relevant to us today in the abundant West. How practically do you live in this type of abundance and not forget that it is God alone who produces every single result in your work?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, this is a tendency for all of us. I mean, just yesterday I was invited to an awards ceremony, right. For all my accomplishments in real estate this past calendar year. And, you know, just considering that, it was another moment for me to just go, praise God, you know, like, this isn't about me. This isn't. You know, this is a culmination of 12 months of activity, you know, within one market and one company. But this is, you know, about his grace, start to finish, you know, and you can splice that out and go, look, he gave me the ability, he provided the clients, he gave me the education and the training to know how to navigate and transact and, you know, all of these different things. So it's certainly about just being intentionally aware. So I think just a practice of gratitude. You know, even daily of just kind of filtering our day's accomplishments, our wins, our losses, our failures, our successes, constantly just filtering those through the lens of God's sovereign, God's the one that did this, you know, and he uses our minds, he uses our connections, he uses our networking, he uses our education. All of these things. Right. But, you know, maybe listeners aren't like me. I need this constantly. I need this daily. And I get that email saying, here's the logistics for this celebration and this, that, and the other. Praise God. That ought to be our impulse, our just natural reaction to just go, this is all of him.

Amen. So you're writing on all these passages of scripture and how they apply to your work.

Which do you think about the most? Like, which do you not need to.

Be reminded of because they are just constantly coming to the forefront of your brain as you engage in your work.

Yeah. In terms of a wisdom standpoint.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or just specific passages of scripture that are just always rolling around at the forefront of your mind and that you're applying to your work.

Yeah. I mean, one. To be quite honest with you, one of the ones I write about, and I believe it's in the first volume, Psalm 90. It's a Psalm of Moses, which makes it unique in itself. Right. Most are by David or Asaph and others that have been recorded. This is a psalm of Moses, and it makes the cut into the psalms, which is kind of cool. But in that psalm, he's talking about the eternality of God. Right. And who is not bound by our perspective, and he's not bound by, you know, our constraints. And he says in Psalm 90, 12, so teach me. Turns it into a prayer. So teach me to number my days so that I may gain a heart of wisdom. And that. So, you know, that's one of my favorite devotionals that I've written just based on that because that's something to really answer your question, it's always on my heart and mind. Life is short. Life is short. Life is short. And he says in there also, life is hard. And in many sense life seems like it's just futile. Right? But these realities are just. They're constantly there. I mean, my LLC that I have is the 9012 group because of this passage. And it's just there's not a day that goes by that I'm not reminded of the shortness of life, the brevity of life. And in turn, it's been kind of like an engine for me. That's just one of those truths that really just drive my productivity, my motivation to produce things, to work. Because our life's short, we only get one shot at this thing. And so I'm so grateful for Moses and under inspiration of the Holy Spirit that we still have that to to be reminded of.

Amen. It's so good. Have you listened to Shane and Chains rendition of Psalm 90?

Oh, yeah. I think I might actually end there with these devotionals. I even recommend different songs to maybe listen to as a response and I think I might have given them a nod to that particular psalm. So good. So great.

I listen to it all the time. All right, Bobo, you know the drill. Three questions to wrap up every pod. Number one, what books are you recommending or giving gifting most frequently these days?

Well, just going back and listening to some of your recent guests. I'm so glad that you all have been talking about Tim Keller's the freedom of self forgetfulness. You can even get a free PDF of that if you just kind of Google it and do a little bit of research. But you know, maybe it's the spirit using a theme throughout your guest to just constantly remind your listeners to make sure that they get that. The treatment of First Corinthians 3 and 4. I would say I kind of referenced it earlier, but John Piper's don't waste your life is probably the book I've given away the most over the last 20 years. But the one I want to mention just in this context is one I most recently read. And it's not going to be as familiar as a Tim Keller or John Piper. And it's a little booklet called the greatest thing in the world by Henry Drummond. He was a Scottish biologist, I believe as well, but it was written in 1890. The greatest thing in the World. It's probably the version I have is like kind of sepia color pages. I mean, it looks like it should be in a museum. Have no idea how I've got this, but it's such an amazing little book. And basically he looks at First Corinthians 13, the greatest thing in the World is love. And he makes his argument that the summum bonum. Right. Which is a popular word these days with the rise of all this stoic talk that's kind of out there, what's the greatest good? What's the highest good in our existence? And he would argue that it's actually love. And so the Greatest Thing in the World. Henry Drummond. It's a great little read.

I like that suggestion. I've never heard that on the show.

It's great.

All right, who do you want to hear on the podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the work they do in the world?

Yeah. So, you know, thinking about this, I would recommend. Well, I've got so many in my network that your listeners would benefit so greatly from. But the one that I kept coming back to is my good friend Dwight Gibson. He is. He calls himself not the CEO, but the Chief Exploration Officer of the Exploration Group. He's a consultant. He's consulted both small and large companies, organizations all over the world. He's also an actor in the show called for the Life of the World. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's in that. He's the consultant, plays himself. So Dwight Gibson, I think he's just got such a fascinating perspective and just so many years of experience working with so many different mere Christians, you know, all over the planet. And I think he would just have a very engaging conversation from his work.

I love that. That's a great answer. But what's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate before we sign off?

Yeah, I would say, you know, Solomon says in Proverbs 23:23, he says, Buy wisdom and don't sell it. It's a really interesting exhortation that wisdom is essential to every aspect of our lives and our work. It's extremely valuable. In fact, it's more precious than jewels, gold, and silver. But it has to be intentionally sought after. Right. It just doesn't naturally ooze into the very crevices of our lives by osmosis. We have to seek wisdom as the very character of God through the person and work of Jesus Christ. We have to intentionally seek wisdom every single day. And I would say that it's even more necessary today in our postmodern world where everything that's up is down and we don't know which way to go. Or what to make of anything anymore. And so the answer is wisdom. And so I would encourage our listeners to seek wisdom with everything they possibly have.

Amen. So I'm talking about redeeming your time. Like, listen, if you're trying to optimize your time and productivity for temporal gains, time in the Word doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But if we're redeeming our time because the days are evil and optimizing for eternity, time in the Word and the wisdom of the Word is non negotiable. Right? So Bobo man, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you're doing to help Christ followers connect the wisdom of the Word to their work. Thank you for serving your real estate.

Clients and employees over your career through.

The Ministry of excellence and for just to help us embrace the wisdom of God's Word and connect it to our vocations. Guys, I read every word of Wisdom calling volume one. I loved every word of it. I'm so grateful for Bobo doing this work. Go pick up a book, a copy of the book on Amazon or Boba's website. Bobo, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Yeah, thank you Jordan.

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