Brad Dean (CEO of Discover Puerto Rico)

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You can reach me anytime@jordanordanrayner.com all right, on to today's episode. I'm really excited to share a conversation I recently had with Brad Dean, the CEO of Discover Puerto Rico, which is the official destination marketing organization for the island. If you don't know what destination marketing is, you're going to learn a lot about it on this episode. I actually met Brad as my team was trying to sell sell to his team when I was CEO of Threshold 360 and I had this great conversation with a member of his team who went on and on about what an exceptional selfless leader Brad was. And I got to know Brad a little bit and I realized this guy's a masterful leader. I got to have him on the show to talk to any of you who are pursuing mastery. The Art of leadership. So Brad and I sat down, we talked about some of the incredible experiences I've been blessed to have in Puerto Rico. I've actually gone twice in the last year and I can't wait to go back again. We talk about what makes the island so great. We talked about the spiritually beautiful and not so beautiful parts of travel and tourism in 2019. And we also talked about Puerto Rico's favorite sun and one of my favorite all time writers, Lin Manuel Miranda. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Brad Dean. Hey, I'm here with Brad Dean, the CEO of Discover Puerto Rico. Brad, thanks for being here.

Hey, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. So we're recording this in the middle of hurricane season, so I got to ask you, how has Puerto Rico fared thus far?

We have fared very, very well. But for the grace of God, we missed what could have been a terrible disaster with Dorian. And I have a much different perspective living here now when you only have a couple days prepare. That storm was going to miss us to the west and then it was going to hit us and then it ended up missing us to the east. And with a lot of prayers and a lot of faith, we were very, very than that. We dodged a serious bullet. That would have been devastating for this island.

Yeah. And not too long after you guys were devastated by Hurricane irma back in 2017. So I think there's this perception, which you and I both know is inaccurate, that the island is still kind of destroyed by Hurricane Irma. I've been to the island twice since Irma hit in 2017, and I was just shocked by how quickly the island has recovered. I mean, the island's like fully operational, right?

It is absolutely fully operational. Tourism has come back quicker than anyone expected. In fact, we're Almost at the two year mark from Hurricane Maria here in September 19th, we'll hit the two year anniversary and the lodging numbers for tourism already above pre Maria levels. And in some cases, we're actually approaching record levels. No one, including myself, anticipated that we would get this far this quickly. And of course, our goal is to use the transformative power of travel to raise the overall earnings potential in the island and positively impact the economy well beyond what we see today day. But for most people who are still envisioning those terrible videos of destruction that they saw on television news, the fact is the islands come back bigger, better, and faster than anybody would have expected.

Yeah, and I apologize. It was Maria, not Irma. I live in Tampa. And so Irma has been the one that has been lodged in my brain.

We hit both, you know, Irma came and then Maria. It was two ladies that were not very ladylike. I think Irma ended up doing probably more damage to the Virgin Islands than they did Puerto Rico. It was a double whammy here. So not completely forgotten here either.

So you're pretty new to the island, right? How long have you been living down there?

So I moved with my family here in May of 2018. So we've been here for a little over a year. We were not here during the storm, but my wife is from Puerto Rico. Her in laws lived through it. So we have vicariously lived through it and we've been here now for a little over a year.

So what's the big selling point of the island? I mean, your job is to market the whole island, right? So I know you have a bunch of them. But for you personally, like, what do you love most about Puerto Rico?

You know, beyond the natural beauty and a lot of just God given natural assets that even Walt Disney couldn't create. What's probably been for me the most captivating part of this is the people. They are some of the most fun, loving, heartwarming, hospitable, humble people who don't want to hand out, but they welcome a hand up. They literally want you to come and enjoy their culture and their island and it's such a special place. And I think what gets me most excited and what really drew me here in part was the awesome potential, not merely getting back to where we were, but taking things to a whole new level. And Puerto Rico is a land of opportunity, literally and figuratively right now with so much having happened in the past, but yet so much that lies ahead that I think is going to be positive and impactful for the island.

So I was down in Puerto Rico about six months ago with a couple of buddies of mine. One of our buddies had just adopted a baby six months prior and he really needed a break. So we're like, hey, let's go to San Juan, let's go to Old San Juan, let's hang out for a weekend. And. And we had an incredible time. And one of the things that stood out to me our last night there, we were walking around Old San Juan and we stumbled across this Dineway piano bar that was like attached to this hotel. Are you familiar with this place, by the way?

I think I know exactly where you were.

So we're walking by and me and my best friend were both piano players and so we walk in and we see this, like, amazing Steinway piano sitting right there next to the bar. We're like, oh, my gosh, that's incredible. Nobody's playing it, so we're like, we gotta play. And then we the corner and we see there's a second piano. So it was in the middle of this hotel. And so the guy behind the bar came out super friendly, talking about the people of Puerto Rico being super friendly. Because I was like, oh, you guys. He could tell that we played, right? Because we're, like, looking at the pianos. He's like, you guys want to play? Like, sure. And so we stayed in this hotel lobby for, like, two and a half hours just playing songs and hanging out with all these. Some tourists, but a lot of them were locals just hanging out in this piano bar for two and a half hours. It was awesome. So that was like, highlight number one, highlight number two. And I gotta ask you if you've had this. I had the best pizza of my life in Puerto Rico, which people think is the craziest thing in the world. Do you know this place? Perillo Pizza. It's right around the corner from your office.

You know, I don't, but you're making me think. I've got to check this out quickly.

I'm going to sell it really hard to the CEO of Discover Puerto Rico. So it's literally two blocks from Discover Puerto Rico. It's this place, they have this Argentinian pizza, which is basically just like steak on steak on steak and chimichurri sauce. It's out of this world. Good.

Well, you know, but you've just perfectly summarized, I think, what we found when we opened our new promotional agency a year ago, and that is that there's so much of Puerto Rico that hasn't been shown and told. People know we have beaches. Most know that we're part of the US what they don't always realize is that rich, vibrant culture and two parts of that that really resonate and differentiate the island are the music and the food. Now, you found a unique part of that with dueling pianos and great pizza. But we found that there's so many people who are captivated when they realize that Puerto Rico has this amazing allure. It's a special gem of a Caribbean destination, but yet it has all the conveniences of being part of the U.S. yeah.

And it doesn't feel like the Caribbean, or at least it didn't to me. I'm curious what cities you compare. I'm just talking about old San Juan specifically, but, like, what cities does old San Juan remind you of?

Well, you know, for me, old San Juan is much like taking a stroll down the historic district in Barcelona or Madrid, but yet it also has such great art and history that there are some parallels to cities in France. And then you also have this cosmopolitan here. And I think one of the things that's unique about Puerto Rico and what fascinates me is how it's so naturally and effortlessly celebrated here is this perfect blend of African, Indian, and Spanish cultures. And that day and age where we hear so much divisiveness. I love living and being a part of and promoting a place that has this natural fusion of so many colors and of history and heritage that come together. And it really makes Puerto Rico a special place. And you see it in the art, you hear it in the music, and you definitely taste it in the food.

Yeah. And there's a deeply spiritual element to that that we could talk about later. It reminds me, have you been to Quebec City?

Yes.

Yeah, so Ultimo kind of reminds me of Quebec City.

Right.

The cobblestone.

The architecture would be very similar.

Yeah, the architecture is very similar. I'm like, all in on Quebec City. That's my other dest that I'm championing really big these days. So, Brad, as my audience knows, I currently serve as the chairman of the board of Threshold360, this tech startup that's built the world's largest library of 360 experiences for hotels and restaurants and attractions. We then license that content to hotels and a bunch of different destination marketing organizations, or a DMO. And when I tell people about DMOs, they're like, what in the world is a DMO? And you're the CEO of a DMO, so I feel like you're uniquely qualified to talk about this. Can you explain what a destination marketing organization is?

Sure. Destination marketing organizations are first and foremost the face and voice of the tourism community to the external world. So our job is to tell everyone what's new, what's next, and what's really neat about our communities. And historically, that's been done by the commission of visitor bureau role. But I think in recent years, destination marketing organizations have evolved, and we've recognized that part of our role is not only telling people what they can expect to see and experience when they visit, but also to become storytellers. In fact, here in Discover Puerto Rico, one of our very first campaign efforts last year was pure storytelling. It wasn't running advertisements. It was talking about the amazing resiliency of a community that had been Devastated by hurricane Maria and how their message as a community had changed. So destination marketing organizations today are showing what you can experience, sharing the stories that are part of the community and the identity of the community that you're going to visit. And it also helps you to not only plan your vacation, but celebrate what's special and unique about those destinations. And I think that's where threshold360 comes in, because it allows destinations to be able to show what's available, what you experience, and almost get a feel for the experience before you arrive.

Yeah, I've always been interested about this aspect of dmo. So your job is to market a product whose quality you don't control. You don't do product development, you don't build hotels, but you're responsible for marketing this overall product of the island. What's that like? And I guess kind of a follow on question that is like, do you guys find ways to influence the products themselves, the product of the island and the asset, the tourist assets that the island has to offer?

Well, we certainly do in our realm. And I think great DMOs realize that the worst thing you can do is to promote an experience that your destination can't deliver. So as you mentioned, a lot of the aspects of the visit are well beyond our control. The service level, the product, the connectivity. But the good dmos find a seat at the table and help influence or drive those. In some communities, they're very, very product oriented. My friend Mara gast from irving, Texas, has been really a lead player in the product development in that community. I think of my good buddy Josh up in Iowa city, who is integral to the fabric of that university town. If there's something happening with the Iowa Hawkeyes, he and his group are right in the midst of that. And then others of us really take the shape of promoters. But you have to be ingrained in the community. You have to be a part. And what you realize is then and now, today, tourism is a team sport. So anyone that thinks that they can promote a tourism industry or product without being ingrained in working through their partners in the public and private sector is really just fooling themselves. On the flip side, we carry a very, very important role not just to promote the community. More and more we're recognizing, as our friends at destinations international remind us continually, that one of our customers is the local community. And so we have to be honest, accurate and transparent about the information we're sharing so that we don' set up an experience that the destination can't deliver.

So I'm really interested in your story, you're new to Discover Puerto Rico because Discover Puerto Rico is essentially a new dmo, right? And then prior to that you spent close to 20 years doing similar work in Myrtle beach, is that correct? That's correct, yeah. So go. Even prior to that, let's go way back and talk about the trajectory of your career.

Well, I was born in a small farming community in central Illinois, nowhere near anything, surrounded by cornfields. And I graduated with a degree in accounting. And I ended up going out east not to work for an accounting firm. I had one job offer that was not in an accounting firm with General Electric. And General Electric had this hands on MBA type program. And I loved the thought of being involved in a business at that stage of my career. So I joined them and about six months in they came to me and said, we've got a remote assignment for you. Now bear in mind it was the middle of winter in Connecticut and when they mentioned the two words Puerto Rico, I said, I'm in. Tell me about the job. So I got my first stint in Puerto Rico as part of the finance team with General Electric. It was an extraordinary experience, Experienced a new culture, a language that I didn't speak, and I spent a lot of time in the remote part of the island. And while I was a low level member of the team, it was fascinating to see a hands on experience in the business and how the work that I was doing in the finance realm impacted that. But something happened that always stuck with me. At the time, we were part of an effort to look at whether or not General Electric would expand their manufacturing base in Puerto Rico or shift resources into Mexico as part of the NAFTA arrangement. And so as I look back, I realized that so much time was spent on the numbers and the profitability and it took the focus off what really mattered and that was developing the human infrastructure. So in the back of my mind, I walked away always feeling like Puerto Rico had this awesome potential. Well, fast forward a few years later, I changed companies, went to work for the Hard Rock Cafe because I wanted to get in the service industry. After doing finances for them. I had unique opportunity to go to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina to open the first Hard Rock Cafe in that company. And Jordan, I'd love to tell you that that was a brilliant, visionary move on their part. Frankly, I was the only guy in the company who was willing to take the risk and go.

You're the only one who raised your hand, right?

Yeah, exactly. Nobody else wanted to go to this small town in South Carolina where they weren't sure if it worked. I said, look, it's cheeseburgers and T shirts and Myrtle beach has millions of visitors. How difficult can this be? So I went there to open that up. I think at the time, I was the youngest GM of the company. To this day, probably the only general manager without body piercings and tattoo. We had this extraordinary experience and it was the first time ever where I got to lead a business unit, in that case, a multimillion dollar restaurant retail operation, and had a great time at it. But after three years, I realized that I was going to be a very successful but divorced restaurateur. I was going to need to find another line of work. And we all hit that. You know, family becomes a more important part of your priority. So had become ingrained in the community job opened up with the local chamber of commerce, which was also the dmo, the destination marketing organization. So I slipped in there working for them for a few years as the chief financial officer. And then lo and behold, one day, my predecessor, who was Mr. Myrtle beach, literally figuratively passed away unexpectedly. And the board came to me and said, we have a situation. So that evolved into me becoming the CEO for that organization. And I was in that role for 15 years. And it was a great role. And at times I thought I might retire in that role. But then the opportunity in Puerto Rico came about and I just didn't want to miss the opportunity to use my skills and experience to do something epic, something historic, something transformative for the people of Puerto Rico who, when I started my career, struck me as great people, but an island that had tremendous potential. So in some respects, it's come full circle.

Did you meet your wife in Puerto Rico?

We did. In fact, we had a mutual friend through a high school classmate who connected me to a professor here in Puerto Rico. And it just so happens my wife was his grad assistant. So definitely a God moment. That's so funny at the time. And the connection ultimately was baseball, because if it had been for winter league baseball, he had would never have connected. So I met my wife here and have been very, very blessed to have her as a part of my life. And now that we've been able to come back from Puerto Rico, for me, it's an awesome job opportunity, but it's also been a homecoming for my family as well.

I love that. What's your faith story? Did you grow up in a Christian home? Did you come to faith in Christ later on in life?

You know, I grew up in a Christian home, but honestly, we were believers, but not always followers. And it wasn't until later in my adult life that I became really dependent and fully vulnerable to the faith that is driven to me this day. So I was very, very fortunate to be exposed to the Christian faith and to the Bible early on. But like a lot of us, I had to learn that living for yourself is no way to live. And ultimately truly came to faith in my adult years.

Interesting. So we don't know each other that well. I mean, this is like the second conversation we've ever had. And just to bring my audience up to speed on how we met, so we were at a trade show, I think it was Destinations International in Anaheim. It's a big trade for destination marketing organizations and the vendors like Threshold360 that sell to them. And we were at the conference, and one of my sales guys wrote you into the booth, and you were talking to him for about 30 minutes, and I didn't know who you were. I was like, man, this guy's, like, either super interested or just really nice and really generous with his time. And so we met. I shook your hand, and then I looked you up on LinkedIn as you walked away from the booth. And it says right there in your LinkedIn profile that you're a Christian. You're just very transparent about that. I was like, that's so interesting. And so I tracked you down, and we had a conversation about faith and how faith impacted our work. And I sent you my book. And I don't know, we've kind of had this email friendship ever since then. And I'll never forget, and this is why I wanted to have you on the show. So I was at another trade show in San Francisco, probably about, I don't know, six months later, something like that. You weren't there, but your team was there. And we were at our booth at the trade show talking to your team, and out of nowhere, we didn't even ask, like, hey, how's Brad Dean as a boss? They just started talking about how amazing the leadership was at Discover Puerto Rico and how they can't imagine having a better boss and how Brad's just created this tremendous culture. And I actually think I sent you an email because they were talking about how selfless you were, right? And I shot you an email like, hey, they might not know why you are the way you are and how you're so selfless, but I think I understand that and I appreciate that. So I guess at the highest level question, I mean, you're a masterful leader. It Appears in the way that your team talks about you. I don't hear many people talk about their bosses like that. What do world class leaders do that their less masterful counterparts don't? How do you create a culture where your employees are speaking that well about you behind your back?

Well, thank you. You're humbling me. And I'm honored to know that. I've got great people who say that, because I think one of the things great leaders do is they hire great people. And I didn't always understand this, but I've come to learn that in the leadership role, we have this awesome opportunity that God gives us. And it doesn't matter whether you're leading a classroom, whether you're leading a. Whether you're leading a friend, or in this case, leading a business or a destination marketing organization. We get the opportunity every day to make a positive impact in the lives of people around us. In our case, as a destination market organization, sometimes that's the people we work with. Oftentimes it's people that we'll never meet. But you and I are called to do that. And when you think about your work that way, then the time that you spend investing in other people and coaching them and encouraging them makes all the difference in the world. And that was kind of an epiphany for me. Midway through my career, I think I had to almost reach a near burnout stage when I realized all of a sudden I can't do it all on my own. And I think back to that great story in the Bible where it's Moses, father in law pulls him aside and gives him some tough love and says, look, you're going to burn out. You can't do this. And I got to think, if the guy that God used to part the Red Sea and lead them out of Egypt into the promised land couldn't get it on his own, then Brad Dean certainly is not. So I look at it as an opportunity that every day I get to contribute to people's careers and livelihoods. And if I can do something to make them more proactive, to help them to assist in turn, that creates the kind of culture that people want to be a part of and people want to give back to. And I think ultimately that's what determines success when you're leading an organization.

Yeah, there's some great wisdom there. So what are you doing today? You spent 20 plus years developing mastery of this craft of leadership, but I got to imagine you're still developing, right? So what do you do in 2019 to continue to Develop yourself as a leader.

Well, for me personally, I'm a reader, so I spend a lot of time reading history, business, sports, maybe at times, and certainly faith based reading. All of that kind of helps shape me as to who I am. I'm also a father and I have a teenage daughter at home. So that's a key priority for me to make sure that I keep family and business prioritized and then invest in myself both physically and taking the time away from work that I need. When it comes to, to building the workplace internally, really have focused over the last couple years on building culture and the organization. I was with before and now this organization. In fact, we were maniacal about hiring and shaping the organization for culture because I think ultimately if you create the right culture, that becomes the North Star for the organization. And I'm really pleased that while we have a relatively young and lean team, we've been able to, in a short time to create a kind of culture that that allows them to guide themselves and their colleagues and their peers and work in the way that creates synergies without me having to direct it. And I love the fact that I can be here or not be here and discover Puerto Rico continues to do the kind of work that it needs to be done. So I think as a leader, focusing on the culture and investing in the people. And then of course, here in Puerto Rico, we're trying to put the transformative power of travel at work. So for me today, it's everything or anything I can do that helps enhance the prosperity and the prospects of this island going forward through travel and tourism. Because frankly, we think that's going to be the only way it will happen.

Yeah, I was just talking to the director of field Operations at Threshold360 about this idea of culture. Like, he's an amazing culture within his team. He leads the biggest team at Threshold. I feel like a lot of times when people ask the culture question, like, how do you create a great culture? They're expecting the answer to be programs or events. And I was asking Will the question our director, Field ops, and he's like, yeah, like, like the way we shape great culture is like hiring great people that like align with values. Like people are the answer to the culture question. Would you agree with that?

Absolutely. And I think going along with that, you have to establish clear values that those people know that they fit within. And so it definitely comes from the people. You know, programs are an important part of that, but to me that sort of enhances or solidifies it. So for us, it's been very adamant that we establish the values of who we are and what we stand for. But you have to live by those. I think the worst thing you can do is put that value statement or that vision statement up on the wall and not live with it. You'd be better off not even going there at all. And for us as an organization, that was a new concept in Puerto Rico. They never had a DMO. And some of our employees came from the U.S. some are still based in the U.S. most came from here locally. Mixing and melding that culture and bringing everybody together is an ongoing exercise. I think all too often I hear colleagues refer to culture as something clinical. It's in the human resources department or it's in the employee manual. No culture defines who the organization is and whether we like it or not. Culture defines who we attract and who's not attracted to us. And so those. If you. If you're able to hire and retain talented people who contribute to that culture overall, then you're doing the right thing. But it's an ongoing daily exercise. If you ever think you got it, you're fooling yourself.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So. So, Brad, you have a teenage daughter. You got a lot going on. Sounds like you're working out, you're investing yourself. What does a typical day look like for you from the moment you wake up in the morning to the moment you go to bed at night? What does a day look like for Brad Dean?

For me, every day begins and ends with prayer. I don't know that I'm a prayer warrior, but I've learned that I need that constant conversation with God. Paul tells us to pray without ceasing. And so for me, every day, I start and end that way. I always try to find time in the morning for a couple of things. Exercise and some kind of reading. Whether it's scripture, whether it's inspirational. Sometimes it may just be meditating on a scripture, too. Even if it's just 10 or 15 minutes, I have to get my day started that way. It wasn't always that way. And I've found over the years that the more I do that, the more it keeps my focus and my priorities in line. So if I could exercise my mind, exercise my heart, and make sure that I'm in line with God's will, then no matter what comes at me in that day, I feel like I'm well prepared. I'm an early riser. So I try to. To get to my key to do tasks. Early on, I found that I'M more productive in the mornings and the afternoons. So I try to align my day up that way. And in this current job, I do travel quite a bit. So I'm really having to prioritize the time I spend in front of stakeholders and staff. I'm not in the office as much as I'd like. Sometimes I have to make that count as much as I can.

For a lot of people, that key task is done in solitude. You're sitting there, you're drafting a chapter of the next book. But for you, the most important thing is often meeting with your direct reports. Meeting with your chief sales officer. Right. Actually, meetings first thing in the morning, is that right?

That's right. And in some cases we're meeting by phone because of travel schedule.

Sure.

But my direct reports have to have access to me. And you know what I found, Jordan? It's almost a bit of a misleading truth that a lot of us just don't realize until maybe too late in our careers or much later than we would like, is sometimes the more time you spend on the front end with those little conversations, the less the formal meetings are needed. I always hated the idea of the annual performance room because it just inherently becomes a gotcha game. So I try to have those conversations on an ongoing basis, so we're never lacking that. So I try to make time for the direct reports whenever we need that to try to make sure that we're able to maximize that time together.

So you come to the office, first things first. Or if you're on the road, first things first. You're talking to your staff. What does the rest of the day look like, by the way? What time do you get to the office and what time do you typically leave?

Well, for me, every day starts pretty early, so I'm usually up and at it by 5am I love it.

Me too.

Before, and I try to get in the office around 7, 7:30. That's a little before everybody else arrives. So I've got time to get organized and make sure my day is well planned. Again. Those first couple hours for me are absolutely critical because if there's things I need to direct or get moving, things I'm going to need to follow up on early or anticipate those inevitable distractions of the day that we can't plan for. Usually I can get some of the important priorities out of the way there. And then I work through the rest of the day. I really rely on an assistant that keeps me moving, moving and keeps me focused and lets me know what is or Isn't getting off track. But here's the key thing. Most of my days are blocked out in meetings. I probably spend 70 to 80% of my time in a meeting engaging with someone. So I don't have nearly as much of that private time as I used to and really enjoy. That's all the more reason why you have to have people you can count on to delegate to. And that culture becomes critically important, because if you've established the right culture, you've delegated work and you've developed the people around you, they can take a lot of that burden off your shoulders. So for me, after the first couple hours in the morning, it's really working that plan and staying focused on what I need to do to contribute, but also supporting others and letting them know that when you delegate something, when you get responsibility out, you don't have to give away all the authority, but you've got to be able to delegate enough responsibility. The people around you can carry their load and grow in their role as well.

Yeah, I think when you get to your level of leadership, when you have as many direct reports as you do. I had quite a few direct reports, maybe too many at Threshold when I was CEO. You think that the most important thing you do is go to meetings, but actually the most important thing, important thing you do is hire the right people so you don't have to go to as many meetings. Right. So just echoing what you're saying about just finding the right people, finding the culture fit, and spending more time on onboarding, spending more time on the front end and investing in these people so that that can pay dividends over time, Right?

Absolutely. One of the things that happened here at Discover Puerto Rico, and I'd love to tell you this was a brilliant, visionary move on my part. It was not. It was kind of a happy accident. But we moved into an existing office office that our predecessor organization had had, but they had about a third of the staff that we do. So we're crammed into this very small office. And I got a little annoyed early on that we didn't have enough meeting space. And we were having important meetings going on, you know, in the break room or in the hallways. So I actually moved out of my office and said, take my office, because I had the biggest one. Make that a meeting room, and just give me a desk in the middle of the office. I'm not at the desk that often anyway. And what I found were the things that I never would have observed by getting out of that little ivory tower. And so while it is nice sometimes to have the peace and quiet and sel of a private office. What I found for a brand new organization filled with people who were trying to get to know me, trying to assimilate to the culture and trying to determine how they could best contribute to the mission. Being in the midst of those people opened my eyes to what was and more importantly, what wasn't working well. And so for me, it was a great learning experience to be sort of knocked out of where I would have been somewhat in isolation and focused on those development opportunities for the people around me and the organization over.

Yeah, that's interesting. So you come into this organization, I mean, you guys had a significant budget from day one.

Right.

So you were hiring a lot of staff, but at the same time it was new. Right. So moving out of that office is almost a visual representation of a flatter org chart. Right. Which is pretty important in those early days. Right. So that's interesting. So I had my team do a little bit of research on you prior to this conversation, and I learned something I didn't know beforehand. You serve in prison ministry and as a. A substitute minister, which is super fascinating to me. So easy for people to see those things as ministry. Right. Do you view your work as CEO of Discover Puerto Rico as ministry and if so, why?

I absolutely do. I think we're all ministers, every one of us, regardless of your job, your title, your role, have an opportunity to minister to people around us, not only by what we do and what we say, by how we do our work. And you don't have to stand in a pulpit to be a minister. So for me, going into prison was a life changing experience for me. I frankly think I got a lot more out of it than I probably ever gave the prisoners. But it opened my eyes and really challenged me to not only deliver the word, but deliver the actions in a very controlled environment. And I took a lot away from that. One of the things I took away is that I can be a minister everywhere I am. And frankly, Jordan, I think a lot of times for those of us who call ourselves Christians, if we don't uphold the standards, then we're reinforcing sometimes the bad stereotypes of Christians who aren't very Christian. Like, so it's called to be a minister, I think for all of us. And living up to that calling is a tremendous honor, but also a privilege and a responsibility as well.

I was speaking to a group of pastors down in South Florida a couple weeks ago and they asked me to talk about this thing that I've written about before that all of us are full time missionaries. I was explaining to, you know, calling a Christian a full time missionary should be redundant. Now it's not always because we don't all view ourselves as that, but Jesus called every single one of us to make disciples as we are going throughout our lives regardless of what our job title is. By the way, I'm curious, what's the last thing you preached on as a substitute minister?

Yeah, so my ministry started as kind of a delegate in our local church in South Carolina. I went through their formal training and I was so fascinated by getting into the Word because when you teach it, you've really got to know it. And to get whether you're given a five minute devotional or whether you're giving a full fledged sermon, I mean it's a tremendous honor. But what a great responsibility to carry God's word to people who you know can be impacted positively and negatively by everything you say. And I was so enthused and inspired by it that I actually enrolled in Moody Bible Institute to get a master's degree in Biblical leadership. And so my first speech coming out of that was the MP that coming to faith in my mid adult years had had. And that culminated with some small stories. And then ultimately probably the most challenging one, and this is what I spoke on, was when God called me to become an organ donor. And let me tell you, I fought that calling for several years and I learned that when God puts something in your heart, it will not go away. And that turned out to be an awesome life giving experience, not only for the person that received the organ, but for me as well. And so that was really my first message, was sharing how God's Word, when it gets inside you and you let it grow and drive, what you do will take you places and directions that you never anticipated. And yet the cool thing is he's always right there with us and never, you know, people say God will never give you more than can handle. That's not true.

Frequently does.

Exactly. But you just have to remind him that he's going to get us through it. And sometimes you have to go through it to get to it.

What would be different about Discover? This is a hard question to answer. It's hard to put yourself in these shoes.

Right.

But like, what do you think would be different about Discover Puerto Rico as an organization if you weren't a follower of Christ?

Well, everything we've done in terms of building the culture comes from my faith. Even though I never say that we aren't quoting Bible scriptures and meaning, but everything we align with comes from the Bible. John Maxwell was a great leadership teacher, but John was a minister and he often notes in his books and his speeches that a lot of his teachings really came from biblical principles. I think the Bible is the greatest leadership manual available to any of us. So certainly everything we do from the culture perspective of how we treat people, how we communicate, how we build, that we climb the ladder of success with people not on the backs of others. The little things in terms of how we present ourselves, all of that comes from there. I think secondly, if I were not a Christian, I wouldn't have the faith and believing that we can do what we're called to do. I mean, our goal is to double the size of the visitor economy. Now that's a very economic statement. But what that means is more people working, more people gaining, more children staying at home in their communities, more college graduates coming here instead of leaving. All of those are great things that positively impact the island. But here's the only way that happens is we've got to have an Ephesians 3:20 turnaround. I mean, exceedingly, abundantly, beyond what anybody thinks is possible. So that kind of faith that we can do the things that others might not think are possible is what drives me and the planning for the organization. And then last but certainly not least, I would hope that the people here describe this as an organization that's respectful of others, that we bring others in, that we're inclusive, not exclusive. And a lot of that comes from my faith as well. So while we never speak about it in those terms, we tend to speak more in corporate terms. A lot of what we're trying to do, what we're trying to accomplish, and most importantly, how we're going about, about it really comes from the Christian faith.

I love that. And I love that you, I mean, you're running a publicly funded entity. You can't speak it explicitly using gospel terminology. And that's okay. You're loving neighbor as self, you're loving your employees as yourself. You're doing ministry even when you're not proclaiming that name. So I want to ask a follow up question about that. So you guys are a publicly funded entity. Has that put you in a weird spot, given your faith in Christ, has that forced you to market things or do anything as an organization that as a Christian you might personally disagree with?

Thankfully for me, I can say no. But the potential is always there and the challenges sometimes would be there as well. I've been more than a person or two that even in my previous job maybe felt that if I was too forward with my faith or they were too forward with theirs, that that would create challenges. And I think what I found, Jordan, is that, and I've been blessed in this, that it has not been a major problem as of yet. It's just having the confidence. You know, Jesus, if he taught us anything, it was get out of your comfort zone, get to know others. And he wasn't just spending time in synagogue teaching. He was out with everyone. And I think that's part of what we're called to do, is to not just teach it, but live it. And so, thankfully, I have not had any major issues that were not resolvable. Now, I will say there's times, I think, in any business job, whether it's destination marketing or the general business world threshold 360, that we're often challenged with that ultimate divide between are we living our faith or are we living the worldly standards? And I think part of that is understanding and believing your faith. Part of that is accepting that we're in the world, but not of this world. And then really, for the bigger battles, the ones that become really difficult and really require deliberate action and maybe some very thoughtful considerations, I always go back to my faith and remind myself in prayer and otherwise that God's going to get me through this one. And so, thankfully for me, I've never had to be in that situation where I had to make a decision that I was uncomfortable with. But, you know, on a fairly regular basis, we're all challenged with being mindful of who we are and particularly who we are in Christ. And that guides your decision making. But it doesn't make it any easier to live in a world that's oftentimes misguided.

I'm 33, right. So. And I've grown up in this generation, which we've used. I would argue we've used like, travel as the ultimate, ultimate status symbol, right? More than cars, more than houses. You know, we like to show off where we've been to lately and these amazing adventures. And so for the Christian, that can get in some really tricky territory, right, of travel being this idol and adventure being this idol, and it's really like one upping your friends subtly and not so subtly as become an idol. So I think there's like, this dark side like travel, but there's also a lot of good in travel and a lot of ways that the tour industry reveals the character of God and is very much a good thing. I'm curious if you've thought about that. Like, how does the tourism industry, the hospitality industry, and traveling and getting out and seeing new places, how does that either draw us closer to God? How does it reveal some aspect of his character? Have you given much thought to that?

Well, you know, one of the things that really excites me about travel and tourism, and particularly this role at Discover Puerto Rico, is a transformative power of travel. And we talk about that oftentimes in a global sense. It transforms the economy, creates more jobs and business opportunities. But there's also just the sheer reality that when we travel, we get to meet people that are not like us. But yet oftentimes, one of the things you find when you're meeting people that aren't like you is what is common. We always go back to that base. What kind of meals do you eat and what kind of experiences do you enjoy? I think that's one of the most fascinating things. I remember my first trip to the Holy Land, and while certainly there were some challenges there and they are not immune to violence, but how many people of different faiths got along and they were able to get along on a daily basis? And that wasn't the lead in to the nightly newscast, but it reminded me that if that can happen in the Holy Land, where there's so much at stake and there's been so many challenges in the past, it can happen anywhere. So I love the fact that travel is transformative. And for you and me individually, when we travel, our minds are widened, our eyes are open, and our perspective has changed. So to be able to contribute of that is a great thing. And I think the more you travel, the more people that you meet, the closer we become to each other. Now, having said that, you make a really relevant point, and that is all too often in society today. I think we're living by the standard of everybody else's highlight reel. You know, we look on social media, we see where our friends have been and what they're doing, and the enhanced photos and whatnot that make us all maybe feel a little insecure at times. I don't think it's ever been more important to the human race than today, where we need to be reminded of who we are in him. And so, you know, as marketers, we probably contribute to a lot of that to a certain degree by encouraging people to share those photos of the great places they've been. And unfortunately, that might be interpreted in a different way by those who are measuring themselves against that. One of the things we're doing at Discover Puerto Rico, which I think is going to be very transformative for others, is not just promoting the traditional attraction and not just promoting the beauty of attractions, the natural beauty and whatnot, but also promoting the experiences outside of the main area. We think for us to accomplish our goals, we have to spread the travel impact out. And one of the things I think is interesting in our industry today is you hear a lot of talk about over tourism, but the antidote to over tourism is getting people to spend more time outside of the main thoroughfares, meet different people, enjoy different experiences. And in doing that, you kind of spread the wealth. So in some respects that aligns very much with the Christian faith. But, you know, I think it all comes back to knowing who you are and not measuring yourself by the world's standards, but rather by his standards.

Yeah, now that's great wisdom. And I'll say I do think travel creates empathy, especially when you travel to different cultures.

Right.

I mean, in Puerto Rico, it's a pretty different culture than here in the States. And I live in Florida. Right. So that's really saying something. Not that far removed, but it does create a different level of empathy and human connection. And now I love it. And by way, the way I know we talked a lot about Old San Juan, but we did explore a lot of the rest of the island when we were down there. And it just reminded me we made this hike up to the top of this mountain in the rainforest. Frankly, I didn't realize Puerto Rico had rainforest. Maybe I'm ignorant, right? But I had no idea that this is the thing. And we made our way to the top of this mountain and we're up there, we're covered in clouds and the clouds open up. And it was a worshipful experience. Experience, Right. It was a time to experience. Dead silent. I still have a video of it on my phone. It's dead silent. Just worshiping the Lord right in creation. And that's a wonderful, wonderful part of travel. So. Hey, Brad, three questions I like to wrap up every conversation with. Very curious to hear your take on this. So I'm curious, what book or books? You're a big reader, right? What book or collection of books do you recommend the most or maybe buy for others the most?

One that I absolutely love. It is for me one of the best compilations of basic but impactful leadership principles. And that is John Maxwell's leadership goal. You can read any John Maxwell book and you're going to come away smarter and better for it. But that book packs what's probably several decades of wisdom into a very easy read that while it doesn't necessarily quote the Bible, it comes from Scripture. And I just think Maxwell has become one of the great leadership teachers of our time. I love good to great in part because of the business principle, but what really got me most excited about that book was listening to Jim Collins speak years after he wrote it. And here's a thought leader of our time, one of the great leadership gurus in this age. And yet he was wrestling with his faith. And I loved how somebody that intelligent can be that vulnerable and honestly acknowledge that he was coming along in his faith. And yet when you read that book, a lot of that really challenges us to think beyond the terms of what we've normally done. And then probably the book that had the greatest experience on me personally, other than the Bible itself, is a book written by Jeff Mannion, who's the pastor of ADA Bible Church in Michigan, the Land Between. And I consider it a must read for anybody that is going through or will go through a challenging time in their life. And let's face it, that's all of us. Jeff's book for me was very impactful. Of course, the name comes from the Bible story of the Israelites. That land between, the land of what was and what will be, of where we were and where we're going, going. But what he teaches in that book is that that land between is a time where your faith goes to grow or to die. And how we use those times in our life to become transformative. Those valleys of life that really should take us to the next mountaintop. But oftentimes people get stuck in the valley and that can be where your faith dies as well. So all three books are great. And for me, Jeff Mannion's book came at a time in my life when I needed to understand that sometimes God uses adversity to make us better, stronger, or prepare us for what lies ahead. And when you think about it that way, your perspective on the problems day.

To day changes significantly and uses adversity to sanctify us. I haven't heard of that book, so I'm going to check that one out. That sounds really interesting. Huge Maxwell fan, Huge Jim Collins fan. I love Jim Collins. In fact, we're trying to get Jim on the show. I don't know where he's at in his faith journey, but I know he's wrestled with it a lot. I know he's like a very curious person, so I'd be really interested hear how he's thought about Faith and where he fits in the grand scheme of things and his work. I'm curious for you. Next question for you. What one person would you most like to hear talk about this intersection between their faith and their work on this podcast?

Well, certainly Collins, who we just mentioned, just because of where he's at. And by the way, I think some of the most powerful Christian minds and voices are those who had to come to faith. And I think a curious thinker like Jim Collins could change so many mindsets. I'll tell you, another one that fascinates me is Malcolm Gladwell. And of course, he's written some great books, the Tipping Point being one of the most popular. But my favorite book that he wrote was about David and Goliath, and he totally changed my perspective on that story. What I thought of David and Goliath was what I heard in Sunday school and vacation Bible school when I was a child, this improbable, impossible victory. But yet Malcolm Gladwell gives you a totally different perspective on David and Goliath. It and almost presents it as it had to happen. It was supposed to happen. And yeah, sometimes God makes these impossible, improbable victories possible, but that's what he expects of us to recognize and trust in the faith. So I would love to hear his perspective on his faith and how it's driven some of those books, David and Goliath and others that are very, very impactful, both on an individual level, a corporate level, and arguably on a societal level as well.

Yeah, I haven't thought about having Malcolm on. That would be very interesting. So you've actually met one of my answers to this question of who I want to hear talk about their faith in the work in the podcast. Lin Manuel Miranda, the writer of Hamilton, who came back to Puerto Rico to do a bunch of shows. I'm curious, do you have a fun story about Lin?

Oh, my gosh, Lin Manuel Miranda is such an extraordinary individual. I mean, the talent and the vision that that man possesses is just amazing, to say the very least. The fact that he can take stories that we all know of and turn them into this magical movement of art. And, you know, art moves and inspires and it creates, and that's what he's done. And then to be able to use that for good is so impressive. But you know, what really impressed me the most about Lin Manuel Miranda, and I see this coming from his father, who I've gotten to know as well, is they could be doing so much for themselves, but they are instinctively and passionately guided by changing the lives of others. And I know just from firsthand experience how selective they are about who they work with and what they do. And the things that he's done for Puerto Rico that you'll never read about, you'll never hear about buying coffee seeds for coffee farmers to resurrect the coffee product. Things that they don't do, but for any reason other than it's the right thing to do and they want to make a positive impact. And I think what he and his family have been done for Puerto Rico and others is nothing short of extraordinary, but also the way they do it. And he uses his God given talent and passion in the world of art to make us think and behave and feel differently. And what an awesome thing that is to accomplish. So that would be a great podcast. I would be one of the first to tune in on that one.

That would be a really interesting conversation. The Hamilton musical. I mean, is these deeply religious, deeply spiritual undertones to the musical? So. All right, last question for you, Brady, Brad, other people listening to this podcast pursuing mastery of the discipline of leadership. What one piece, one nugget of advice would you like to leave them with before we hang up?

You know, we're all called to lead in some realm. Leadership doesn't come by title. It doesn't come by position, organization, or salary. Everyone is called to lead. And maybe the greatest impact you have is the person you train, the child you raise, the person at the grocery store that you possibly impact. Every opportunity for interaction is an opportunity for leadership and for Christian leadership. And I think what's most important for leaders to recognize is to not lose sight of why you're called to lead and how you're successful. Not by who we are, it's by whose we are. And when you know and understand and embrace who you are in Christ and remember that you were created in the image of God, what an awesome thing that is. That makes every problem seem much smaller. It makes every challenge seem much more reachable. And it reminds us of the great impact we have when we're building his kingdom right here, day by day, interaction by interaction, opportunity by opportunity. With that in mind, we can all be great leaders and lead with him, by him, through him, and frankly, for him.

That is a good word to end on. Hey, Brad, I just want to commend you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for serving your team. Well, thank you for serving travelers like me and my buddies going to Puerto Rico for a weekend. Well, thank you for serving the people Puerto Rico well through The Ministry of Excellence, thank you for working to reveal this character of a hospitable, welcoming God. Right? A God of beauty. And thank you for helping people from all around the world just experience God's beauty through the island of Puerto Rico. I deeply appreciate you and your work. Hey, if you're listening to the show, if you haven't been to Puerto Rico, book a trip. One of the things I was super surprised about, it's super affordable to go to Puerto Rico, and it's actually really easy to get there. You don't need a passport, which I thought you did. I showed up to the airport with my passport. You don't need one. I'm such a fan of the island. Brad, thank you so much for being here. This is a lot of fun.

Thank you for the honor and privilege of joining you.

What a great conversation with Brad. After my producer finished listening to that episode, he's like, man, I love, love that guy. And I want to go to Puerto Rico. I was like, yeah, me too. We got to go back. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss an episode in the future. If you're already subscribed, do me a favor. Take 30 seconds and go review the show. Hey, before you leave, I've got another short conversation I want to share with you guys. This is the author of a book that I recently added to my personal reading list. The author's name is Chris Hewart, and if you're a big Enneagram fan, you'll know that Chris is one of the leading authorities on the topic. I got interested in the Enneagram about nine months ago. Kind of got forced into this, given that everyone I was talking to in Nashville was cult like, obsessed with Enneagram. But I actually have found it to be a helpful framework for understanding myself and those around me better, even though I came late to the Enneagram party. So I started with Ian Michael Cron's book, Ian Morgan Cron's book, the Road Back to youo. But I was talking to somebody and they're like, hey, you gotta take it to the next level. You've gotta read the Sacred Enneagram. By Chris Hewitt. So I added it to my list I've started. It's very good. So I recently sat down with Chris to ask him just a few questions about the book to help you guys understand it better and decide whether or not it's something you want to add to your reading list. So. So without further ado, here is my Conversation with Chris hurts. Chris, thanks so much for joining me, for sure.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yes. So I actually just started getting into the Enneagram in the past year. I'm a real newbie to this topic, and I started out with Ian Cron's book, and I can't remember who it was, but about six months ago, somebody told me I absolutely had to add your book to my reading list next, the Sacred Enneagram. So I did, and I'm really excited to talk about it a little bit with you for the sake of my audience. So let's start here. What's different about this book? There's so many resources now on the Enneagram. What makes this book unique?

So.

And actually, that's a great question, because that was what caused me to write it. In fact, for several years, folks had been urging me to sort of sit down and smash out an Enneagram book. And what I did not want to do was add to the clutter and add to the chatter, because essentially, the Enneagram of Personality, and that's really what people are working with right now. If the Enneagram may be a teaching or tradition with 7000 years of history largely as a process tool, well, the Enneagram of personality is only 50 years old. Actually just less than 50 years old. And the truth is, in the 80s and early 90s, there were a couple sort of classic books written on describing time types. And since then, people haven't done a whole lot to sort of update that. In fact, it's just been a lot of regurgitating old ideas by masquerading them, dressing them up. And so, like I said, I didn't want to add to that chatter. I didn't want to add to that clutter. I didn't want to rewrite something that's been rewritten a couple hundred times. What I wanted to do is suggest that if you know your type, great. Now what? And how do you actually bring awareness of type into how you nurture and nourish your spirituality? Because here's the thing, one of my teachers, Hudson, says this. The Enneagram is less about nine types of people, and it's more about nine paths to God. And so I sort of asked the question, well, what are those nine pathways? How do we approach embracing and being embraced in divine love nine different ways? Because, look, man, the way I grew up going to church sort of didn't work for me, but it worked for ENFPs really well. Well. And I think when I aligned how I supported My spirituality with what resonated with my temperament. It changed everything. Well, man, the Enneagram takes it even further. And I think really, if you can get the sort of rails for how to take your Enneagram into how you nurture your spirituality, it changes the game.

Interesting. So who's this book for? Is this for Enneagram beginners? Somebody who's never read anything about the Enneagram, never tried to figure out what their number is? Or is this for somebody who already knows what their number is and wants to go deeper?

Yeah, that was one of the problems because I told my editor I did not want to write the first Enneagram book somebody was going to read. But, you know, it turns out it's been the first Enneagram book a lot of people have read. I told my editor, I don't want to write a book where you could just turn to your chapter and read those 27 pages. Because, in fact, that actually misses the point. If it's all about you, then you've actually doubled down on your narcissism. So what's funny is. Oh, yeah. And then I also didn't want to put a test in the book because the Enneagram isn't a test. And sometimes the test actually are backloaded with racial type, all sorts of inherent bias that don't help people. And the bummer is I do read the comments and people are a little grumpy that there's no test in there. And people are a little grumpy that it's not organized around the chapter for their type. I wanted to write a book about people who at least knew what their type was and like I said, wanted to know, what do I do next? Now what? Now that I know I'm a two or a five or six, an eight, now what? What do I do with that awareness?

I love that you wrote the book you wanted to write and stayed committed to that. As a fellow author, I have a lot of respect for that. So, Chris, our audience, high achieving professionals, people who are seeking to deeply integrate their faith, their work, and do really great work for the glory of God and for the good of others. How is this book going to serve them? And before you answer the question, let me just kind of give my own own quick story on my history with the Enneagram. So I've been hearing about this for years and years and years. Years and years and years. Let's call it the last four years, right? And I've been traveling to Nashville a lot for speaking engagements for different things. And it's cult like in Nashville. I feel like that's the only thing people talk about in Nashville is Enneagram. So there's probably people listening to this episode who've been hearing about this for years. Why should they, as ambitious professionals, care about the Enneagram and this particular title?

Yeah, this is the funny thing. I'm not exactly an Enneagra evangelist. I don't think that, like, everybody needs to know their type. I think it is a support, and there are many supports to sort of our sense of becoming who we've always been or remembering what it is that we've forgotten or realigning with our soul's purpose for being here. And I believe this. I believe that when you're ready for it, it will show up. It will show up right on time. So if you are ready to sort of maybe wake up from some of the slumber of over identifying with the fragments of your identity that we've sort of subconsciously allowed to lay claim to the whole of who we think we are, then yes, there's a teaching ready to sort of jar you out of some addiction, some patterns, some behavior that have kept you stuck. And that's why I say this. That's why I say the Enneagram exposes our ego set of coping addictions that we've wrapped up around our childhood wounds so that we don't have to tell ourselves the truth about who we really are. Because we would rather project our ego mythology, build scaffolding around that, and then convince others just as we've convinced ourselves. Well, if you want to actually tear down that scaffolding, if you actually want to learn to tell yourself the truth about who you are, then here you. You go. There is a tradition that will gently and compassionately remind you that every part of yourself belongs. The least desirable, the most offensive, your greatest failures and regrets and disappointments. It all belongs. And the truth is, if any one part of yourself doesn't belong, then nothing and no part of yourself can belong. And I think in 2019, our work towards integration, towards sort of a holistic, compassionate brace of ourself is kind of the next step in the evolution of our human consciousness. And so if you're driven, if you're successful, the Enneagram actually gives you, I think, some renderings to sort of show you what's behind the drive. Why is success so important to you? Why does cause your fear of failure? And where there lies, can they be unmatched? Have you not told yourself the truth? And what does hearing the truth actually sound like when it can lead to freedom.

I love that.

Well, Chris, I'm very much looking forward to the book. Thank you so much for taking a couple of minutes to talk about it with me, for sure.

Thanks a lot for having me. Appreciate it, man.

If you enjoyed that conversation with Chris, go check out the Sacred Enneagram book and the corresponding workbook. They just published a workbook to go along with the main book, which has sold more than 100,000 copies, I think Chris said, which is crazy. And you could pick up that book wherever books are sold. Hey, that's it for today's episode. Again, if you're enjoying the show, go ahead and subscribe and review wherever you listen to podcasts. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed making it. We'll see you next week.

Sam.