Brad Lomenick (Fmr. President of Catalyst)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Foreign. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week I host a conversation with a Christ follower who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery. We talk about their daily habits and routines and how their faith influences their work. Guys, this is one of those episodes. I know an episode is going to be great when I just stop taking notes and just forget to take notes and just get totally absorbed in the conversation. Today's guest is my friend Brad Lominick. He's the former president of Catalyst. Yes, that catalyst of Catalyst Conference fame. He's also the author of a terrific book that came out a few years ago called H3 leadership. Be humble, stay Hungry, Always Hustle. Brad and I finally got a chance to sat down. We talked about the difference between culture's definition of hustle and how we as Christ followers can think about the same concept of hustle. Hustle. We talked about how to be an exceptional service driven networker, or as Brad likes to call, connector. And we talked about how to crush the now while you're in a waiting period, a weird in between period between now and whatever's next for you and your career and the call that God has on your life. You guys are going to love this terrific conversation with my friend Brad Lomenick. Brad Lomenick, I'm so excited you're here, man. Thanks for being here, Jordan.

Listen, longtime listener, first time caller, right?

Longtime listener. So speaking of first time caller, what's been your favorite episode so far?

Oh, gosh, do you have a favorite? Well, I mean, we were just talking before you hit record and you mentioned some of the ones that I've listened to, the Horst Schultze. I mean, I'm a big fan of Horst Schultz.

Love Horst.

I think because of some of the travel, you know, you. When you actually are able to be a part of or experience the product and then you hear somebody talk about the way they develop the product, you know, it's so. I don't stay at Ritz Carlton's often, but I have been to events and different things where I was able to stay at a Ritz Carlton.

And I was actually reading Excellence Wins at a Ritz Carlton, which. Which was a really fun experience. I was like going downstairs and like testing out stuff, right. Like with the concierge, I'm like, is this, is this real? Do they really do things like this? And like, especially when I'm trying for business, I never stay at the Ritz. I stay at, you know, a La Quinta. That's right. Shout out for La Quinta. But with my bride. Yeah, we try to. We try to stay it Ritz or Fairmont or something like that when we can. It's not always possible. So, hey, people, if they recognize your name, Brad Lominek, they probably recognize you from one of two things. Your terrific book from a few years ago, H3 Leadership, or Back in the day when you were president and executive director of, you know, little known brand called Catalyst.

Right.

So for the two or three people listening who don't know what Catalyst is, is. What's Catalyst?

Well, it is and was a movement. I would call it that. I mean, I'm slow to call things movements because especially if there's a spiritual component that's usually God breathed and you can't control a movement or you can't be in charge of actually building a movement if you're waiting on God to breathe on it. But for some reason, he did for, you know, 15 or 20 years, that we started it in 2000, connected to John Maxwell. And a bunch of us were in our 20s and we were hanging around John and we said, hey, John, what if we did something for us, like for actually our generation, and we love hanging out with, you know, your peers, but would you give us a shot at that? And he's. And of course, he said, yeah, let's go, you know, let's do something for young leaders. And so we built an original event in 2000 that I think 1500 leaders showed up to. Wow. Which is not, you know, I mean, that's. That's a good start. We were in the event space, so we knew how to put on events. But the thing that I think was unique, Jordan, was that we looked around the room and said, okay, we've got something here. Meaning that there was this group of leaders who were same age, same stage of life, sort of same mindset, same mentality, same approach to innovation, same futuristic thinking. And it just felt like there was a spark of something pretty unique.

And, hey, I want you to drill down on this because I think a lot of Times for entrepreneurs, it's hard to know in the early stage what's working and what's not. Like what? So obviously you're measuring numbers. You're measuring 1500 attendees. But what was it about that first event, maybe the second event, third event, that you're like, oh, there's fruit that's going to grow here. This is fertile soil.

Well, a couple of things. One, there was a mentality. Just let's. There was such energy. And energy is hard to measure, but it's easy to feel like when you're around it. You know it. Right?

You know when you see it.

Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like culture. When you're around a great culture, you sometimes. You can't actually describe it, but you just go, oh, it's great culture.

Yeah.

So that was a big part of it, and it definitely was focused on a certain. A certain age and stage of leader. You know, we. We were pretty clear with our marketing and with our approach, and in some ways, we turned away older leaders, and we basically said, it's not for you. We love you, but if you're over 40, you're not really welcome. And because we narrowed our focus, it actually made it unique and customized, which, you know, that's one of the mistakes that a lot of us do as leaders and entrepreneurs is we. When somebody says, who's your customer? And you say, well, everyone. Yeah, wrong answer.

Wrong answer.

So that was a big part of it. And, you know, I think also there was just this sense of wanting to do something as a community. And we didn't know some of the language around building a tribe. I mean, it was eight years later until Seth Godin wrote the book Tribes.

Yeah.

When we started. But there was this sense of, this is a group of people, you know, as Seth says, we gather and we do things like us, for people like us. Right. I mean, there was just that sense that we could actually make a difference here. Like, we could actually move the needle. We could, you know, I don't want to say change the world, but it's one thing to gather. It's one thing to be inspired and listen to speakers and sort of, you know, show up in the same room and look around and go, this has got energy. It's another thing then that when you look around and go, we can actually do something. Like, we can actually make a dent. And we didn't know how to necessarily manifest that yet, but there was a sense of, okay, if thousands of leaders are gathering, who all are pointing in the same direction, what kind of things can we get done for our generation? So that was a few of the things that I would say describe the early days of Catalyst.

I get that. So two things I want to drill down on into that. Right. So one is this idea of exclusivity. And I just want to make sure our listeners hear this loud and clear. No product is for everybody. No book is for everybody. No podcast is for everybody. It's why the very first word of every episode of this podcast is, this is a podcast for Christians. Like, this isn't going to make sense if you're not apprenticing yourself to Jesus Christ.

Right.

If you're not a follower of Christ. I'm thrilled you're here. Right.

But.

But this isn't primarily for you. Second thing I want to point out is this. This idea of energy, because I've sensed this so many times in my career as an entrepreneur. It's the unquantifiable thing. It's not a key result that you can measure. Right. But it is a very real thing for a company. And I would even argue with individuals. Right. So I'm thinking of a story I heard once of Jeff Bezos in the early days of Amazon. John Doerr, before he made his investment in Amazon, showed up to the Amazon headquarters, and he tells a story about how Jeff Bezos just came barreling down the stairs, right. So excited to see John, shook his hand. And John Doerr was like, the minute I met Jeff Bezos and saw his energy and passion for what he was doing, I knew I wanted to be in business with Jeff Bezos. So for entrepreneurs, for leaders, for anyone, regardless of what your career is, there's something to that. Like, I got that feedback a lot from investors, like, oh, like, you're just so energetic. And I didn't know what to do with that. I'm, like, cool. Like, this is, like, who I am. I'm, like, excited about what we're doing, but it is an asset. Right, so you guys have all this energy early on at Catalyst, at that first event. You're there for how many years were you running Catalyst day to day?

Well, I started really sort of officially stepping in and running things in, you know, 2004, five, somewhere in there. And then I was. I was leading it for the next decade. So I stepped out in 2014 to. Well, we can go into that if you want to, but for a number of reasons, and handed it off and then, you know, went on to doing other stuff. Still stayed involved in sort of as president emeritus, which means you. You Know, you don't have any role. You just show up and eat the peanuts in the green room and get.

Like being chairman of the board.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I know that real well. So in that 10 year period, catalyst went from what to what?

Yeah, initially we, you know, we were doing one event in Atlanta with 3,000, 4,000. It kept growing. We moved it, you know, to a larger venue in 2008. So we were doing that annually while also trying to create content and, you know, build a little bit more of a community and a connection point throughout the year. In 2008, we launched into doing other events around the country. So we went to the west coast, we went to Dallas, we went to the Midwest, Chicago. We started doing one days and really like upped our game in terms of going from one event to I think 2012 or 2013. At some point in there we, you know, we were doing like 12 events a year.

Geez.

And you know, we were early in the podcast game. Speaking of podcasts, since we're on one, you know, we, we launched our the callous podcast in 2005.

Wow.

And I think we were in the top 10 on all of itunes because nobody else was on, nobody was in, nobody else in the game at that point. Right. So, you know, we again saying, you build community or you built this tribe. There was hundreds of thousands of leaders that I would say, at some point they would have described or if you would have said to them, hey, are you connected with Catalyst? They would have said, oh, yeah, definitely. And then you say, well, what does that mean? And they might say, well, I'm on their email list or you know, I listen to their podcast or I've been to an event before or I met the guys who run it, or I get their content, I go to their website, we use some of their curriculum because we had to start pushing out into other areas as we continue to build it with at that time, DVD curriculum, we were taking just this approach of we continue to build a funnel. We know that only a percentage are going to show up to something, so we better be really intentional about continuing to offer different on ramps onto the interstate and make sure that we're not just making the only offer an event. Because even when we started and as we got into it, Jordan, we started to sense, especially with the 1 percenters of leaders, like the true innovators on the curve. I can't remember the name of the curve, but that 1% who are truly out in front of. Yeah, about seven or eight years into it, they decided they didn't want to necessarily show up to an event anymore unless they were invited to the back green room or they were among the cool kids club or they were speaking. And not because they were anti event. It's just that no longer did them showing up to a large gathering with thousands of leaders necessarily feel like the thing that they should be doing. And they might come with their team, they might bring their team, but we just started to sense that. And it's continued. Right? I mean, 12, 13 years later, as we sit here in 2020, the event landscape has significantly changed where I'm putting a lot of my energy right now into small curated invite only. Very topical. And everybody wants to know, well, who else is going to be there? It doesn't even matter necessarily what we're talking about. Right?

Correct. Yes. Yeah. It's why during COVID right? So I was supposed to go to a couple events this year, supposed to speak at a couple events this year. Obviously all that's been canceled. And you know, you immediately get these emails like, oh, well, we'll like transfer your registration to like a virtual event. It's like, no thanks, like, I'm just not interested. That's not why I go to events. Like, I don't go to events for content. I go to events for community. Content could be delivered anywhere at any time. And I think, I think it's gonna be interesting to watch the big event organizers pivot the model of events. And I think you're onto something. I think that smaller curated gathering, I think that's going to be a big deal. So, Brad, you mentioned launching a podcast in 2005, which is Mind boggling to me. You just launched a new podcast recently.

Yes.

What's the name of podcast? Is it the H3 leadership podcast?

Yeah, H3 leadership podcast. So I'm 15 years late.

That's how I felt when we launched this last year.

Right.

Better late than never. And so you've interviewed, you know, some amazing leaders. I'm curious, what have you learned? If you were to boil it down to 1, 2, 3 things, what are the keys to exceptional leadership that cut across industry, business, nonprofit sector, whatever.

Yeah, well, I will always go back to my framework, which is, you know, humble Hungry Hustle.

Yeah, I'm setting you up, Brad. Come on.

I know that was a knock it out of profile pitch. I love it. You know, always go back to those three H's because, just because for me, that's been my, you know, my chair and the three legs of the chair since I really started leading in My, you know, in my late teens, early 20s, organizationally, you could say. But if I had to choose, let me give you one. In each of those categories. One would be the idea of self awareness as a leader, which really fits into the humble category. And we all know about authenticity. I mean, it's overused today. I would say this though, that again, the leaders I really admire, they're so self aware that their confidence comes from their humility of self awareness. So they're so dialed in on who they are that they're comfortable walking into any environment and being okay with the real them. Right. And that's true definition of confidence is that your confidence comes from a place of humility because you're content. You're so self aware. And I think that so many leaders that I meet that are not humble, they're actually insecure. They're just, they're walking around, you know, in some ways hoping nobody finds out. And that's just. It's so much energy. Oh my gosh, it is.

Yeah.

So that would be one. I mean, curiosity as a hungry leader man. Name of the game again. You've interviewed tons of people. You've been around some really class A leaders. Me too. And every one of them, it's like an old west shootout of who can ask the best questions.

Yes.

Right. So that posture of I never arrive, you know, that I'm a learn it all, not a know it all, and that I'm stealing that from somebody else said that before me. I'm not sure who it was that the learn it all mindset is such a better posture than being the know it all. And even if you're the grand poobah, and I watch Maxwell do this John Maxwell so many times, Jordan, like, you know, he would speak at an event that we would be putting on or, you know, hosting or just there with him, and he would go sit in the front row or somewhere where he got the old four colored pen out, you know, like the black, blue, green and red. And then he got his white or yellow pad out. Old school, baby. And he's sitting there taking notes and many times he's taking notes on the thing that someone's saying that they stole from him.

Yeah, I've seen him in person. And he writes constantly, constantly at these events on airplanes. It's nuts.

Yeah, on airplanes, in the front row at a conference when nobody's looking. You know, I just, I always noticed that about John, which I really admired about him was, you know, this is why you're able to be an expert is because you're such a learner. And then under the hustle category, I'm going to throw a curveball on this one. Nobody expects it, but it's margin. Yeah, it's the ability to rest and have Sabbath and to be comfortable with a rhythm that is maintainable over the 60 year, 70 year journey. Because everybody thinks, oh, hustle. I get it, Brad. Like you mean at work, Everybody, you know, get yours. You know, it's scarcity. So there's only certain amount. If you don't get it, somebody else will. No, just the opposite, in fact. It's abundance mentality. So your hustle is about others, but your margin is about you. So you're crushing it because you want to elevate others. But then your margin in Sabbath allows you to work from that place of rest.

Well, and this is different for Christians. Right. And by the way, I'm so glad you brought this up because hustle, especially within the church, has gotten a really bad rap. You got it, Jefferson. Becky wrote this book, To Hell with the Hustle. I haven't read it, but you know, I still love that you use the term hustle because we just have a unique relationship with this topic. I wrote about this in my book called To Create. You know, the difference is that Christians, unlike the rest of the world, know that it is not our hustle that produces results. Right. Jesus said, apart from him, apart from the vine, we can do nothing. We're called to trust. Right. We're called to trust in him to produce results. By the way, that's the humble part of H3 leadership. But we are called to hustle. This is Colossians 3:23. Whatever you do, work heartily. As for Lord, not for men. It's embracing that these things aren't at odds with each other. Right. There's a tension that we need to embrace between trusting and hustling. And I think you're onto something by mentioning Sabbath and margin. Because I think that is the sign that you're managing that tension well. Like if you can't unplug and rest and regularly enter in the rest because crisis finished work for you, that's a problem. Is that what you're trying to say? Is that what you're absolutely going with this?

Yes, all of the above, man. And it's clear. And I mean, I love Jefferson's writing, you know, John Mark Comer, there's so many who sort of have, they've pushed against, I would say, what cultural hustle is.

Yes, yes.

Which many times comes back to Comparison.

Yes.

It's. I'm watching everybody else, so I better get going, you know, because I'm. I'm now getting behind. So, you know, for me, it's stewardship of season. It's rhythm that's appropriate. It's the idea that, you know, we're going on a marathon. We're not just in this for the sprint. Although there might be seasons of sprinting.

Yes.

I mean, there might be seasons when you're launching something and you are going to need to show up and work longer hours. And this is part of the appropriate mindset that says, again, I'm in rhythm. You know, there's not just the sense that I'm redlining my engine throughout my life because at some point that engine's gonna blow. And what we don't want to be is the leader who, you know, red lines blows up, recovers. Red lines blows up, recovers. Red line blows up, recovers. There's a point there where you're just below the red line, which is again, like, that's rhythm. And your engine runs at its optimum performance based on that kind of output.

I'm writing my next book right now. You and I talked about this a couple of months ago. I'm writing my next book right now. And I'm writing about how these God designed rhythms of rest are actually counterintuitively productive. Right? Like I came across this great story about the California gold rush in the mid-1800s. And there was this book published, it was like a guide to the gold rush in California published in 1818 49. And it actually cites like they like did a study back in the 1840s that people who regularly sabbathed on the trail got to their destination 20 days faster than the control group. It's like fascinating, right? And I think like a modern day example of this, like Chick Fil A. Right? Like back in the day before there were free staying Chick Fil A. Chick Fil A had a hard time getting malls to take them in. Landlords just didn't want them because they were only open six days a week and they didn't think they could do it. And now they're the most coveted tenant in the world around malls. Right. They've proven that it's counterintuitively productive. So we're recording this in. What is this? October of 2020. We're still living in the midst of this COVID pandemic. What's one new thing you've learned about leadership this year that you either didn't know pre pandemic Or, I don't know. You just know at a different, more nuanced level as a result of the pandemic.

Well, I think what I'm hearing the most, and this is true for me too, is first of all, in times of crisis, you have to communicate more as a leader. So Andy Stanley says this. I'll steal his words. You know, people want to hear your voice, not just your words.

Yeah.

They want to be comforted by knowing that you actually are working hard to lead them. The other thing is that action actually relieves or reduces anxiety. So in times of crisis, the best thing for us to do is many times actually do something. And it might just be that you're pushing forward, you're taking a step, you're launching something, you're trying something new, you're serving people in your community. But what most of us do during something that feels chaotic or uncertain is we actually freeze. We pause. You know, we stop. We say, well, let's just let this blow over. Let's hope we get through this. Compared to. No, actually lean into that wind and do something. Actually create something that feels like action. Because when we move, we actually create momentum. So action reduces anxiety. And then this is true for all of us. Like, this is a restart. This is not a do over. It is a disruption. It is an interruption. We're not going back to normal. So in times like this, like when I'm approaching my own world, my little universe that I spend my time in and the work that I do and the things that I'm thinking about, everything right now is, I'm in launch mode. Yes, I'm in. Let's start it over. We got a fresh slate, man. The whiteboard is clean. Let's dream up some new stuff, because how many of these are you going to get in the course of your life? And so I look at it with a bit more excitement. Jordan, like, I mean, you probably are like this, too. Even though it's terrible, this is awful. But I'm excited to think that this potentially has the ability to allow us to create new things. And it may just be my wiring, I don't know. But those are the things that come to mind.

Yeah, no, I'm in the same bucket. I mean, this is a. Obviously this pandemic is horrible. This is a result of the fall, and we need to fight hard against it. But as with everything, the Lord is using, even this for his glory.

Yes.

And for some good to some end. And I've seen a lot of good. I mean, we are reaching more People with this content and serving more people through the ministry of excellence at Jordan Rayner and Company, like, that's a blessing that we wouldn't have had had enough for this pandemic. And I think a lot of leaders are thinking about not, you know, not primarily how do we cut, how do we preserve what we had? I see more leaders. The most exceptional leaders I know are asking the question of, like, what can we create right during this time? What can we make to move the world forward, to move it closer to the kingdom? So. So, Brett, as a leader, to pursue mastery of this craft, you gotta be good at a lot of different things, right? Like, leadership may be your quote, unquote one thing, but there's a lot of different skills that go into that. I'm curious what you think, what skill you're like, disproportionately good at. I'm asking you to yearn horn. Like, if you had to like, teach a course.

Yeah.

On a single topic, what would it be?

Oh, I know, I know immediately. It would be the idea and the power of connections.

Yes, that's exactly what I was going to say on your behalf. I love that you went there.

All right, explain. Well, the ability for me to have a very like, dialed in intrinsic gift to see connections happen before they even happen, to understand, like, how to make connections to, you know. Again, the subtitle of my life story, even my leadership message, if the title is, you know, H3 leadership, be humble, stay Hungry, Always hustle. The subtitle is in many ways, build a platform that other people can stand on. And if you're going to be a platform builder for others, you really have to figure out then how to be a connector that allows for, you know, two things to come together without you being the center of it. And I knew, I felt that even in my 20s. And what's interesting about the term and the idea of a catalyst, Jordan, which when I was in my early 20s, God hadn't connected me to that idea yet or to that team yet. But the idea of a catalyst is that you are a change agent. You're actually creating a combustible, many times explosion that leaves no residue of itself, meaning that you are connecting two things at some point, but there's no residue of you. It's not about you. So as a connector, I want to be able to connect perhaps two people, two organizations, two movements to multiple things. But let's just say it's two people. If I connect them together and say, hey, Jordan, I want you to meet so. And so you guys should connect. You don't know each other. Here's what I love about both of you. I hope this turns into a conversation and then I get out of the way at that point, and then I hear a year later, and you say, hey, thanks for that connection to Bill. Bill and I are going to do a project together and we're working on a new initiative, and I just celebrate at that point. Now, let me give you the opposite, potentially.

Yeah, please.

The opposite might be what we would call the networker and the networker, which there may be a better term that creates a little bit more of a true expression, but just go with me. The networker. It's all about them. The networker. They want to make sure that you realize you actually made that connection. They're transactional in nature. If they don't get something out of. Really doesn't need to happen. They're all about serving themselves. The networker is the person that comes to that. That event, and you're like, please, can. How do I please them? Yes, exactly. Or they're in the. Or they show up in the green room and you're like, how'd you get in here?

Yeah, yeah.

And everybody's coming to you going, hey, how did they get in here? Because now they're. They're annoying me. They won't leave me alone, you know, so we all know who that person is. You know, hopefully it's not you listening, but you can think, oh, yes, I know exactly. We're talking about Brad. So that's the two extremes of this power of being a connector compared to being a networker.

It's the difference between creating value and taking value.

Yeah, right.

It's a mindset. I mean, it's a mindset of service, of serving others before yourself. I'm so glad you brought this up because I just want to publicly praise you for this. You and I have only known each other. We've known each other's work for. I've known your work for years, but only got on the phone together for the first time a few months ago. But in those few months, you've set a couple of these connection emails between me and some other people. And I'm so glad you answered this question the way you did because you are an exceptional. I was going to say networker, but I love the distinction. It's a connector. The connector versus the networker. The smarmy networker versus the value.

Right.

Creating connector. I love that so much. So, Brad, you're a productive guy. You know, we Talk a lot of the podcast about daily habits, routines. What does a typical day in your life look like from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed?

Well, I'm a morning person, meaning getting a lot of stuff done before 9am, you know. Yeah. Like that commercial that I think it was a military commercial that we get more done before 9am than most of you do all day.

I like that. Yeah.

So that really is for me, you know, the time to be most productive. I'm a fan of the, of the YouVersion Bible app and I read the one year Bible that Nikki Gumbel curates, and that among other things. But that really ends up being sort of daily scripture. I try to do it in the morning, but I'm not necessarily ruthless about that. A lot of people are. First things first. I'm a bit more scattered in my approach to some ability to really dive into the scriptures. So if I get stuff done by 10am and I very rarely schedule anything, whether it's a meeting or call or before that time, Even sometimes before 11, I just, I want to save that for getting stuff done. And then the rest of the day ends up being interviews. It ends up being phone calls. It's, you know, zoom calls at this point that maybe a couple a day. I'm a runner, so I run usually anywhere from six to ten miles a day.

Oh, my word.

Yeah, so that ends up being a big rock that has to go in the jar early on.

When do you do that?

Usually in the afternoon.

Okay.

That's typically like the rhythm or the habit would be sometime between 2 and 4:30.

So after you've gotten your deep work done.

Yep.

Somewhere in the middle of calls, meetings, all that stuff.

And I'll do a lot of those calls while I'm running. I'll just stop and walk, though, because I don't want to be the annoying guy that's breathing hard during the call.

Thank you for not doing that for this podcast.

I really do. I do a lot of meetings and phone calls, especially while I'm walking, because I find that I'm actually better. But it also is killing two birds with one stone. And so much of my learning, it happens during a run. I'm listening to podcasts, I'm listening to sermons, I'm taking notes, I'm praying. I'm actually capturing thoughts, new ideas. I mean, the amount of times. And when I say run, I'm not running for time because the amount of times I stop, people would say, brad, you're really terrible with your times. I'm like, well, I'm not trying to be a marathon runner and I'm not trying to get better necessarily, even though I do want to improve. But it's much more about the consistency and the habit of exercise. But also it gives me room then to be able to do all those other things that actually get fueled by. It's sort of like being in the shower. When you're in the shower, we all know those great ideas just start showing up.

So, Brad, you do your afternoon run. Your afternoon means, what time are you going to bed? How much sleep are you getting?

Usually 10 o', clock, 10:15. So I try to get eight hours. So I'm usually up by six, 6:15.

I love it.

Eight hours a night, though, if I'm getting less, it's going to start to have an effect. And if I'm getting more, you know, I'm probably not getting more. So again, early. Early for me is. That's the sweet spot. You know, that's the Dan Pink in his book, you know, he. He talks about, like, when do you get the most done? And I need to go to bed earlier in order to wake up earlier to get things done earlier.

Yeah. Now I'm the same way. So, Brad, you know this podcast all about how our work contributes to God's work in the world, right? How he works through us. You know, you've interviewed and worked with tons of amazing leaders. I'm curious who comes to mind right off the bat when I ask this question? What are some of the most vivid examples you see of leaders moving the world closer to the kingdom of God? Obviously, we're not moving the world closer. He's working through us. But who comes to mind when I ask that question?

It's a great question. I've got so many examples because of just the work I've done the last 20 years being in the conference world, because so many of those people we would invite to actually come and speak at our events. I'll give you a couple that I just feel like for me have been probably more standout than others. You know, I mean, I've mentioned John Maxwell, so I won't mention him again, but he would be on the list for sure, and here's why. Jordan, let me just dive into this for a second with John. I think everybody knows him as a leadership author, you know, but here's what I love about John, and this has been true throughout his life. He's an evangelist and he's been able to connect the dots of, you know, bringing people of influence into his slipstream and also then introducing them to Jesus. And he does this at events where he'll have thousands of people all over the world, in countries that this shouldn't happen in, where he's spending the day training them as a leader. And then he'll say, hey, by the way, we're done. But if you want to stick around, I'm going to share a bit of my own personal story. Everybody stays, right? Everybody. Nobody leaves. And then he shares his story, shares his faith story. He presents the gospel in a clear and compelling way. And he is perhaps one of the great evangelists of this generation.

Do you think John Maxwell and company, I can't remember what the official business name is. Do you think that's an intentional vehicle to the end, or do you think it's just a byproduct they found along the way? Like, I mean, either way, amazing. It's exciting that John's using that platform that way. But what are your thoughts on that? Or do you know?

Well, John's, you know, he's pastoral.

Yeah.

So he's always been a pastor. You know, he always will be, whether he's showing up and, you know, sort of carrying that as his business card right now, which he's not. But he's. He would say he's always been a pastor regardless of his seat at the table in this season. And for me, again, that's what I'm trying to do, like, that's the lesson for me is that I'm going to be pastoral because that's part of my calling as a follower of Jesus. It's a salvation calling. It's also, you know, part vocational calling. But he would look at it and say regardless of what season he's in, he's always had that. Whether, again, he was a pastor, truly, like he was actually pastoring a church or he's, you know, running an event company that, you know, is sharing his message. Or now he's much more. In this season of his life, he's hanging out with people at high levels of influence, CEOs, heads of state, countries like government officials, etc. And every season he's been in, he's done this. So it's not a means to an end other than it's just the simple.

It'S who he is notion that who God's called him to be.

You got it.

So who else is on the list?

Well, I'll give you another one that for me, really, I would say in this one, nobody's going to know this guy's. Name but he impacted me in my 20s. A gentleman named Bob Foster. Nobody will know. He started a place called Lost Valley Ranch in the middle of Colorado which I've invited you to. Yeah. And you're going to make some point. He was a pair of patriarchs like Billy Graham and Chuck Swindoll and Howard Hendricks and sort of all these patriarchs of the faith back when they were in their prime in the 50s and 60s and 70s. And he's passed on at this point, you know, he lived to be 94 when I was working at Lost Valley. So this was just out of college for me and I was, you know, stupid, dumb, ignorant and stupid at 23, 24 years old.

Weren't we all?

And I'm ready to change the world.

But if you were self aware that goes a long way.

Hopefully I was. But I'm working on this ranch out in the middle of the mountains of Colorado. I didn't study for that. I wanted to be in politics. I was going to go to law school anyway. He's 75 at that point and we would meet for breakfast every Friday morning and he's the owner of this guest ranch. He's 50 years older than me and he just poured into my life. And one of the things that he, that he influenced me among many is he said Brad, your, you know, your 20s, like who you are right now in your 20s, establish your 70s. So the man of God you want to be when you're my age is the man of God you're becoming at your age. And what he instilled in me was legacy. And that legacy starts now. Like my, my legacy starts when I'm 24. Yeah. So I'm already doing the hard work of finishing and that was such a great lesson for me in early season was look at me as an example and let's start working on the things that are going to be the foundation building blocks for you to get to the finish line, finish the race well, man.

So going back however many years ago this was is this guy's discipling you. Are there verses, particular passages of scripture that you remember from that time that have just like really stuck with you during this phenomenal run you've had as a leader.

Well, we did scripture memory together so Bob Foster was, he was a navigator and if you know the navigators as a ministry, you know scripture memory is like one of the foundational elements of being a part of the navigators movement. So we did scripture memory together and he knew all the verses already but he just did it because I was learning them.

Right, right.

So, you know, there was a ton. I mean, I think at one point we memorized the entire book of Philippians 2. You know, had this attitude in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, although existed in the form of God, did not regard equally with God a thing to be grasped, but instead humbled himself, even to the point of death. I mean, I could go on.

That's a great chapter. It is a great chapter to beverage.

It might be the hall. It might be in the hall of fame. Yes. Philippians 2, especially the first. By the way, the first five or six verses, if you want to do a deep dive on teamwork and organizational culture, man, those first five or six verses are game changers in regards to how you approach serving each other.

That's all about Christ's humility.

You got it, man. So I'll throw that one out there as my takeaway from that time was Philippians 2.

Yeah, it's really good. So I mentioned I'm writing my next book right now, and one of the things I've been writing about is, and I think this is relevant to anyone who works, but particularly relevant to leaders is how the gospel is kind of this double edged sword and the one hand it is our ultimate source of rest, but on the other side it's our ultimate source of ambition.

Right.

It's both. I'm just going to throw that out there and see if you'd like to comment on this. Agree, disagree and expound however you see fit.

Totally agree. And that's where I would say the connection point for me in terms of what I've held to, is that humility and hustle go together like proper ambition. Godly ambition is not just appropriate, but it's needed and it's actually valued. It's highly valued in the kingdom of God. So, you know, hustle again. If hustle is for others, if you're actually making others better, if you're, you know, elevating other people, if you're honoring and serving others, the question is always for what? Right? I mean, the ambition question comes down to for what? And you can take anything in your life and you can keep asking that question, you know, so I want to make money. Well, for what? Well, I want to. I want to have margin for what. I want to be able to provide for my family for what? You just keep asking that question and at some point you will get to the place where you have to wrestle with that ultimate definition of again, what is ambition? And if it doesn't forewet someone else or it doesn't forewet God's purposes and ultimately the redemptive qualities again of being a follower of Jesus, then it's going to be a for what? That just ends up burning away.

And this was the story of my life, the first five years of an entrepreneur chasing after success, chasing after the next round of funding so that people would know I was worthy. This is very dark side of career and hustle. It's why on this podcast, you will probably never hear the word success. You'll probably never hear us talking about how to get a raise at work. That's not the point. The point, as we say in every single episode, is the glory of God and the good of others. That's the source of our ambition. And when that is our ambition, man, we should want to be wildly productive. To that end. I think about. I think about Jesus, and I think it's John 17. 4, where he's praying to the fire. He says, I have brought you glory on earth by. How do you do it? By finishing the work you gave me to do. Right. Like, we've got work to do, and we bring glory to the Father. When we pursue that work, we pursue mastery of our craft, and we lean in hard to the work God's given us to do. That's part of, not the only way. That is part of how we bring glory to the font, Right?

Yes.

That's motivating to me.

I think, too, one of the things that so many of us wrestle with is the proper understanding of vocational calling. And that sense of we have two callings in life. We have a salvation calling that is to follow Jesus to be a person of faith. We then have a vocational calling. And that vocational calling actually should give evidence and express in all of its form the ultimate manifestation of the glory of God. And it doesn't mean that we all have to become part of a staff of a church or we have to do work that looks like it's more important in the kingdom. The work you're doing matters now. And so much, though, of the potential downside or the danger for many of us who are type A, ambitious, enneagram threes, you know, performers, is that we allow at some point our identity to get wrapped up in that season of assignment. And that happened to me, you know, like, part of my story that I write about in the book in H3 is that, you know, I started to become Caliph Brad, that everything about me, Jordan, was that it was about like. Like you said, it was the ultimate Expression for me now was that callous Brad, and that that was becoming identity assignment and calling. And at some point, callous Brad had to die.

Yeah.

Like, because it was time for a new season. It was time for a new chapter in the book. And, you know, this is where we, if we're not self aware, if we're not content, if we're not dialed in on being an authentic leader, if we're not like appropriately handing things off and seeing things in their appropriate nature as a season and not an identity, then we get a lot of things really messed up. And the church, unfortunately sometimes makes it even more confusing.

Totally. No, that's very, very well said. So, Brad, you've listened to the show? You know, we wrap up with the same three questions every time. Number one, really curious to get your take on this books that you recommend or gift most frequently to others.

I have probably gifted the Next Generation Leader by Andy Stanley more times than any other book.

Wow.

And it's now, I don't know, 15 or 16 years in existence. So it's also got a long shelf life. But that book probably has been gifted by me the most to others, especially those who are in the early stages of their career.

Yeah, that's a good answer. I like that. Who would you most like to hear on this podcast?

Well, I have a number of answers, but I'm going to give you a couple of specific ones. Yeah, I would love to hear. And you may have had Joel Marion at some point.

I haven't, but, you know, it's funny. Joel and I have been talking. He's in my neck of the woods.

Sure, you guys are pretty close.

Yeah, we're going to get Joel on, so.

Yeah, I listen to his podcast. You know, we connected earlier this year, so he would be one. I would love to hear you interview the CEO of Walmart. Now. I don't know. I don't know him.

Yeah.

But I know that there's definitely, like some elements of faith. So interesting. His name's Doug McMillan.

That's a terrific answer.

Yeah. And if. Doug, you're listening. Come on, man. Come on, Jump on the podcast. Let's go.

You know what's funny? Honestly, some of my favorite guests have come because they were just already in the audience. Like, I just, I just interviewed. Right before I interviewed you, I interviewed this woman named Carol Holden who wrote the second Disney plus original movie that just came out, this movie called Clouds. Like, what in the world? Like, you were just like sitting here in the audience. So, hey, if you're out there, and you think this is a conversation that you think our audience will want to hear with you, let us know at jordanraynor.com/contact. By the way, those books that Brad just mentioned, including his book H3 Leadership, you guys can find those books, as always, at jordanrayner.com bookshelf all right, last question. Brad, one piece of advice to leave this audience with. Some of them leaders, some of them not and don't want the gift of leadership. They're very content with whatever other gift God has given them. What we share, though, what everyone in this audience shares, it is a desire to do exceptional work, the glory of God and the good of others. What do you want to leave them with?

Yeah, let me give you one thing. And it may spur something else, but I think, especially for those of you who feel like you're in that place that is in between, you know, you're in between the start and the dream job, or you're stuck in the middle of the organization, you feel like nobody knows you're there, you launched your company, but it's still not gotten off the ground in the way you thought it might. And one thing is just to be faithful to the current assignment and feel that sense of crush the now and that that now will lead to the next. And that the way you steward the now really does determine not only what God gives you to steward next, but also that it is your scorecard in the kingdom. We forget that. We forget that the way we take something that might seem so insignificant and we crush that insignificant moment or assignment or season really does show up as a grade in God's scorecard and God's economy. So, you know, crush the now and it'll turn into the next. Yeah.

It's one of the beautiful truths of scripture. Right. Scripture is crystal clear that we can do nothing to earn our salvation, our status as children of God. Jesus has done that work for us. But it's also equally clear that there are rewards for how we steward this life. Right. So our entrance to the kingdom is the same, but our life in the kingdom is going to be different. There are different rewards based on stewardship. That's why Ephesians 5 tells us to redeem the time because the days are evil. We're to buy up our time and steward it well for God's glory and the good of others. Brad, I want to commend you for doing that exceptionally well. I want to commend you and every leader, any, everyone in our audience, for the important redemptive work you're doing every day. Thank you for working hard to master the art of leadership, for advocating for hustle that we Christ followers would be ambitious for the work the Father has given us to do. Hey, if you want to connect with the ultimate connector, Brad Lomenick, you can find him at brad lamanick.com that's B R A D L O M E N I C k dot com. Brad, thank you so, so much for joining me, my friend.

Yeah, thank you for having me, Jordan.

Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss another episode in the future. If you're already subscribed to me, a huge favor. Take 10 seconds, 15 seconds, a minute, whatever. Right now, go to Apple Podcasts and leave a review of the show. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'll see you next week.