Candice Levert (IT Operations Manager)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode.

Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as pharmacy Aides, factory workers, and energy brokers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Candice Lavert. She's an IT operations manager in a large software company who recently joined me to talk about the Internet impact of knowing that God cares about the work itself and not just how you spend your lunch break at work. We talked about how to use show and tell for grownups to move from the surface to the serious to the spiritual with your coworkers. And finally, we talked about how to practically make people feel valued beyond their productivity within your office. I think you guys are going to love this conversation with my friend, Candace Lavert. Candice Lavert, longtime listener, first time caller, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thanks so much, Jordan.

So you told me before we started recording, you've listened to every episode of the show, which boggles my mind. I can't listen to myself talk for more than a few minutes at it. I can't imagine, like, when people tell me they listen to me read audiobooks, I'm like, that sounds exhausting. All right, let's talk about your work. Candace, you're an operations manager, an IT operations manager. You work at a really large software company.

And I just want you to take.

Our listeners inside of your world a little bit and instead of asking you just kind of abstractly, what do you do? I actually thought an interesting way to do this would be to talk through the first big project you took on in your company, which you described as total, quote, unquote, chaos initially, end quote. Tell us about how you brought order out of chaos there. I think it's a pretty good window into your world.

Yeah, I'd love to. So picture imagine coming in day one on a new job, and I was brought in as a telecom analyst at the time, and global company operations all over the world. And one of the biggest things that, that they needed to bring somebody in for, and it ended up being me, was that the. This is a very specific and narrow thing that they needed, but it was causing all sorts of issues all through the company, more than you would even kind of imagine. But the actual telecom services, they were not being paid on time or properly. And so when you think of a global company, especially pre Covid, that's another thing you gotta think about. So Pre. Covid. Covid. Such a big part of what, you know, an international global company is, is their physical presence in, in all these different locations all over the world. And so in these different offices, in different cities, different countries, every single office has to have, you know, their proper setup to function. And so they've all got telecom surfaces of some sort. So what I was focused on was the Internet service and the phone service. Right. Pretty critical.

Yeah, yeah, pretty important.

Pretty important when you're the person sitting in the cubicle in one of those offices.

This does sound like an ancient time though. Like pre Covid talking about phone lines.

I mean, the Internet less so, but yeah, yes, definitely. And just like the volume of offices, Right? Sure, yeah, yeah, totally changed, like night and day.

But back then, this is a big deal.

Back then, yes, huge deal. And again, because pre Covid, everybody's in the office, so they're not just there as a building like some of them are right now. But everybody's there, everybody's working out of those offices. So I come in, I walk in the door, day one, and they say, okay, so telecom services, Internet and phone, all over the world, they're failing. They are going down due to non payment, if you can even believe it.

So phones are being shut off because this big, huge global company that has plenty of money to pay just doesn't have systems in place to pay the bills.

That's right. So I came in to kind of work through that problem and get it under control. So I got to work with all these local folks internally within the company and say, okay, what's your invoicing look like? Who's getting it? Where does it come? Things that sound even more like ancient times. Some of this stuff was still coming in, paper in the mail.

What a world.

Goodness, yes. So things like that, that maybe nobody had ever thought about it or thought about changing it or wanted to change it. So here we are. And it was not 100 years ago, but just a little ways ago, and those things were still taking place. So to fast forward, I was able to get ahold of people all over the world internally, find out what their current state was for, how invoices were coming in, get a grasp on what all the services were, who all providers and suppliers and vendors were. I worked with what I had, which was a spreadsheet. So I made the longest spreadsheet of all time and just started adding, you know, line after line, detail after detail, column after column to get this centralized, get it known. It was just unknown and kind of out there floating and be able to have it down to well oiled machine eventually, where I was centrally. Right. Managing exactly what telecom services were having at every single office throughout the company and the world.

Yeah, this is super helpful. So listener, the next time you're at church or at a bar and somebody introduces themselves as an IT operations manager, you got some idea of all the craziness that's going in this. So, Candace, I love this. In the pre interview we did, you said that, quote, God is a God of order, end quote. And because of that quote, it matters to him that I do that here in this little tiny corner of the world, end quote, taking disconnected telecom billing systems and centralizing, et cetera, et cetera. I couldn't agree more.

Right.

But I know this is a pretty new concept to you, that your work, that God cares about the work itself or as you put it. I love the way you said this. You said, quote, God cares about what you're doing and not just what you do on your lunch break, end quote. So good. So I'm curious, how is that realization that God cares about your work, that it's not just a platform for evangelism. Right. But it is good in and of itself. What impact has that realization had on your life and work?

It's been huge. So I think when there is a either, you know, indirect or direct, you know, concept being, I think, modeled for me or even taught to me and you know, as a Christian community, it could come out this, this way where it's. You go to work and there's a few things that it's good for. Right. And do a good job can maybe be kind of a side note, but also make sure you're evangelizing to your co workers and that's probably going to happen on your lunch break because, oh, by the way, you should do your work well. Right. But that has always given me this feeling of, well, I guess what I do the whole rest of the day and gosh, a lot of hours, hours of my week, which adds up to a lot of time of my life, doesn't really matter to the kingdom like that. Right. So it matters for making a living and all of these things, but it doesn't matter towards. We're not going to call it ministry, we're not going to call it missions, we're not going to, you know, call it kingdom work because it's just at an IT company and that's just what you do for work, quote, unquote. So it has made a big difference to think about. No, no, no. Every minute of my life is something that matters to God. That, you know, in our concepts of like the basics that we go into in this community, which is, you know, God worked, he's a worker, he's a creator, he doesn't just put up with us working, but he loves it. He's a part of it. It's his thing that gets me excited. It gets me a different kind of motivation and drive to do Monday through Friday.

Yeah. It's so good. I love it.

Yeah.

And it's that leap of this is what I was really trying to do with the sacredness of secular work. You know, move the faith and work conversation beyond where I think we've been for decades, at least. Of, okay, our work is a platform for ethics, excellence and evangelism. Right. Basically, 1% of my time it works because I can use it to share the gospel. It's like, what about the other 99%? It's like, no, God delights in the 99%. 100%, so long as we're doing it with love and in a God honoring way. So, speaking of which, because of your work done in love and excellence, your work on that project we were talking about just a couple of minutes ago, because of your excellence there, you were kind of thrust into this managerial position. To use your own language, I think that's the word you used to me. And you were kind of put in that position with very little training, very little mentorship. I can't imagine how overwhelming that would have been, especially at a huge company. But I'm curious if that was a fruitful time for you spiritually, even if it was a hard time professionally because you were just so painfully and obviously aware of your inadequacies, for lack of a better word, your weaknesses as you were entering into that higher level role.

Yes, definitely. Yeah. So, I mean, I had a lot of support, which is, you know, it's kind of funny. Like, it's one of the only reasons I even feel said yes to it, because there was even a version of myself that might have said, no, thanks. But, yeah, I was excited to take the challenge. I knew it was going to be really hard and it delivered. But like you're saying, it was very much a. Especially going from like the end of my era of doing the project that we talked about. It did end up being a wallow machine. And. And I'm thankful to God for that. But because of that, I very much got to kind of cruise. And so going from cruising in some ways to going very, very, very deep into, okay, boom, you're a manager. You're not only managing, but you're managing the team you used to be a part of. Right. That change was really like 180. So it was something that pushed me towards, okay, you're going to wake up, you're going to go into this and it's going to be hard and you're not going to know exactly what's coming and you're going to have to rely on, you know, there are some things that I have gotten to, you know, do before this and support that I have. Right. So I could lean on those things. But at the end of the day, I had to say, okay, Lord, it's me and you today, because I don't know who is going to be in what mood. Right. Like there's just so many factors when you're managing people. And it definitely was one of those things where I was even prepped spiritually I think, to take the job, like I said. So it's been exciting to see that like all that happened in his timing and all that.

Well, hey, listen, when I asked you in the pre interview how your faith is most significantly shaping how you do what you do, we just talked a few minutes ago about how what you do matters to God. You're bringing order out of chaos. But when I asked you how your faith is shaping how you do what you do, I loved what you pointed to. You pointed to the community and culture that you're really trying to build on this new team that you inherited. This team that you're managing. Why is that so important to you to build a culture in which that team feels really cared for?

Yeah, it's a big deal for me. I think it started with the fact that, well, number one, we're it within it. So any stereotype, you know about that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

About those, you know, as far as people and interactions and people being people people. Right. So like that's just not our culture. So I being on a team like that and being a people person has always been kind of like, okay, where's the check in? Where's the community? Where's the, you know, the chit chat? At the beginning, beginning of the meeting, it's usually missing. And so as. And I have a really great boss who has supported me so much. And so he would always talk about like think about the fact that you're an employee too. Right? So I'm an employee and I was feeling that missing. And so I'm like, I can't be the only one. So if somebody's going to give me a managerial position for some crazy reason, the first thing I'm seeing is if I can possibly do it. I want to try and implement some of those things that I was missing for myself and so, as you know, I run an international team, so not a single person is here in the United States. They're all over the world. So that is. That makes it all remote and that makes it very, I don't know, difficult for me. That might not be hard for everybody, but it's been hard for me. So, you know, it's not people I've met, it's not people I get to see on any regular basis. I have literally never met them. So with all of those obstacles, I'm like, there's still got to be a way somebody's doing this somewhere. So I've just tried to implement things that do promote community and are able to get us out of all we talk about is work, etc. So it's just been kind of fun to see what we can and can't do and what we're growing in. But it matters so much to me because I do think that it was something that I was really wanting and wishing for before I was in a position to implement it. So the second I could, I was like, all right, I know nobody's asking this of me, which they genuinely were not, but I was like, I'm excited about this and committed to it. I want to make sure that get there. Yeah.

And we could talk all day about the business case for investing in culture, the business case for investing in people beyond their productivity. But I want to hear you make a spiritual case for this. Is there a spiritual case for you coming into this position, not being asked to necessarily invest in people beyond their productivity, but choosing to do that? Is this part of what it looks like for you to follow Jesus practically in your role, managing this team?

It is, it definitely is. Just in the sense that because it wasn't being asked of me, I genuinely could have done my job any day that I was on this, you know, in this position and in this role, I could have done this without it. And so it's funny to say, like, to go above and beyond sounds like a thing, but, like, it is. It's something where it just was so clear to me that, I mean, even before, before I had a managerial position, I felt like I wish I could do something. So I think that's what was so clear to me, that as soon as I could, that I was going to implement at least the basics right, pretty early on and then try and keep growing in that as. As much as possible. But, yeah, it's like we matter. You matter, you know, sure, maybe we, I don't know, have different locations in different countries and different traditions and all of that, but we have a lot in common. We work together. And it really does, I think, influence me on the manager side and them on, you know, being managed and being a part of a team. I think it impacts us so much to come to work and know that there's not only the tasks that I need to do and check off available to you, it's almost like available to you. Right? Like you could come to me for those things. If you want. If you would much rather not, that is. Okay. But if you got questions or concerns or even just want to talk, like, you should know that you can, and that's available to you and come to me. Yeah, yeah.

And I've written about this before. I think one way that we mere Christians can be distinct in the workplace is we should be leading teams that feel deeply valued as people just for being made in the image of God and not just for their productivity. That we care for people as image bearers and not just what they can do for us as managers or us as entrepreneurs. And so, Candace, I want you to. We've talked about this a little abstractly. Let's talk about it a little bit more concretely. What specifically have you done within your team to make them feel valued beyond their productivity? What does that look like?

Yep. So the first thing that I did when I started the position was I implemented one on ones. So if you can believe it, there weren't any. So, you know, one on ones with each person that I directly manage. And then pretty quickly after that, I was like, we're not doing these without being on camera. So we don't get to see each other. We don't get to go grab clothes, coffee, but we're gonna at least, you know, see each other's faces. And, you know, eventually once people get more comfortable, then they'll start showing you maybe something on the camera, right? Like, they'll show you, do a little show and tell for you, depending on what's going on. And when you catch up with them, they might get to show you something. Right. So there's just a little bit more interaction there. So that's been really good. You know, you never know the other side of it. Who knows if everybody's like, no, thanks. But I do believe a lot of people have leaned into them and appreciate getting, you know, the check in and getting true, like time of their own. I always tell them, like, this time is for you. So what do you got? We could go whatever direction you like.

Okay, so hang on, let me clarify. Yeah, so those one on ones, first of all, how frequently are they?

We are doing one on ones once a month because I have fairly large teams. So. Yeah, once a month.

Okay. You do them once a month and there's no agenda. So this could be anything personal or professional.

Is that right?

That's right.

Okay, interesting.

Okay, great.

I love it. And do people bring up personal stuff?

Sometimes? Yeah. Yeah, sometimes, yeah. And it has taken time, of course, just like any group of people or whatever. It takes time for people to even want to share anything. But yeah, there have been recent one on ones where we just catch up, we just talk all the time and. And that was it. And we say, is there anything else? It's like, nope, I didn't have anything else to talk about. This was it. So, yeah, it's been fun to kind of see those morph a little bit. Like, sometimes I'll send a prompt. Right. Of some sort. Sometimes it is a work related one. Sometimes it is more of a like something.

Give me an example of some of those prompts.

Oh, examples.

Especially a personal one. That'd be great.

Yeah. So I mean, low hanging fruit, right? I'll keep it really simple and something that's, that's easy to latch onto. So, you know, at the end of the year, I might, you know, say, like, what are your plans for? And you wouldn't believe how hard it is to do this because we don't even have the same holidays, we don't have the same breaks, we don't have anything in common. But you know, you might come to the end of the year and say, you know, like, on the work side, you might have them reflect back on, hey, what was one thing that was like a win from this past year that you're super excited to accomplish, but then on the personal side, like, you know, tell me something that you have planned that you know, you're looking forward to or like that's good or whatever.

Did you listen? Well, you've listened every episode. So one of my favorite episodes is with Sean Copeland at Regent bank, one of the fastest growing banks in America. Yeah. And so his team, I can't remember the exact cadence.

I think it's weekly.

They have mandatory. Every manager has mandatory one on ones with their team. And the only rule is work is the only thing not on the agenda.

I love that.

Yeah, I like yours too. Where work can be on the agenda, but you're allowing the employee to dictate what that agenda is. They can take it professionally, they can take it personally. I like that. A Lot. All right. What else are you doing to make your team feel valued beyond their productivity? We talked about one on ones. Give us a couple more things that you're doing.

Yeah, so like I said, end of the year is a good one where you can kind of all be on the same page of, you know, ending the year and looking back on it and then looking ahead towards the next one. So the last two years, I think I've tried to have at least some type of. Of course I say gathering, but virtual gathering. That is not actually work related. Right. So it's, you know, closest thing you can have to a party, but you're virtual. So a lot of times. So both times that I've done it, it's been pretty fun. And I like that it's. It doesn't happen often because it kind of gets people, you know, they don't get bored of it or tired of it. They just get okay. Like we have this, you know, once a year, towards the end of the year. So I think my favorite part of doing those has been some. I think I may have looked this up and found it somewhere. I'm sure I did not come up with it myself. But we do a show and tell and it's optional, Right. So I do know there are some serious introverts on team, so I don't want to make them do anything, but I've been trying to get them to kind of have to be there. Right. The auditory, like you were just saying for the other. The other person that has a different version of this that, you know, like, please show up. Right. We're going to all get together. If you don't want to say anything, that's okay. I encourage people to be on camera, which we don't do very often. And then again, optional, we'll do share show and tell. So I know that sounds like literally first grade, but it's fun because somebody will literally like bring their guitar and put it in the camera and tell everybody they're learning it or somebody will, you know, share a picture of where they just went on vacation. And it goes on and on from there. So it does cater a little bit towards the extroverts who are more excited to do stuff like that. But I do try and get everybody to at least. At least be there and participate.

I love this so much. I don't know if there's an office episode about show and tell at work, but if not, that was like a swing and a miss. That would be such a great episode. So, you know, in the Sacredness second work I talk in. I mean, the majority of the book is how it work matters beyond sharing the gospel. But then the last chapter is like, oh, but hey, we're all called to the Great Commission. Non optional command for followers of Jesus. And, you know, one of the things I'm always thinking about in my evangelism efforts with coworkers, with neighbors is looking for opportunities to move from the surface level to the serious into the spiritual. Right. I'm curious if those, like, show and tell sessions, if there's one on ones, if those parties give you kind of new material, if you will, for lack of a less crass term, to move from the surface to the series to the spiritual with those co workers.

Definitely, yeah. So the end of the year 2022, I did this right, for the first time. Super fun. I was glad to see some people participated, got to learn some things that I didn't know about people, et cetera. And so I don't remember what I shared, but it was something pretty generic. But it actually, what you're talking about, actually happened. I got to do it from my own side. So I kind of, like, geared myself up this year and I was like, I'm gonna share something spiritual. Like, perfect opportunity. You know, people. People can share anything they want. And I'm not, you know, telling them to do anything. I'm just sharing what I'm up to.

Right, so you're bringing your whole self to work.

Yeah, right. Like for better, for better, for worse, for that term. Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I genuinely had to, like, very, like, I was pretty nervous about it just because I didn't want anybody to take it wrong. And I had told everybody they needed to come. Right. So you could pretty easily have somebody say, I didn't like that you got shared it on a call like that. But I had, you know, been going through an advent. This was like. I think he had been like, Christianity Today's version, somebody. It was one of the versions that had a physical book in my hand. It was like a little pamphlet. And so I had been going through it and I was like, I think I'm going to share this on the show. Never show and tell. So I just brought it on camera. I showed them the COVID and I said, you know, I'm a Christian, and this is, you know, something that's been good for me to do the last couple weeks. I, like, don't get to do this every year, but I like to be, you know, thinking about and immersed in, you know, the Christmas season for the, you know, actual Christian reasons of it and biblical things about it and etc. Right. Like I came on and said that I think I was shaking, but everybody said, oh, okay, cool. Just kind of nodded. Nobody said a whole lot. But I think I can't remember if it was a devotional of yours or something else, but somebody kind of was like, you got to go public eventually. Right. Or it's like you can try and show it and show it and show it, but at the same time, it's. Especially when you're in a remote environment, you don't get the side conversations and break room stuff. There's gotta be a little bit more of a creative way to like, tell people you're a Christian instead of have people maybe guess or assume. Right?

Yeah.

So I was like, all right, we're doing it. Yeah. So that was something that I got to do recently, which was. That was the end of last year and that was super exciting. And again, no, you know, miraculous conversations after. Just, just go in public.

But that's on your hands. Your job is to be faithful, to raise your hand and say, I'm a follower of Jesus. And hopefully that makes sense of these efforts that I've been taking to love you and learn about you, my team. Right. So listen, like, we could talk about any conversations around culture and team building can sound pretty similar to the rest of the world. And I think by God's common grace, that's okay. Right. The way a non believer and a believer build team cultures are going to look pretty similar. But I think what could be distinct is us thinking about, okay, how do we use those ways to point people to the hope that we have in Jesus Christ. So I think that's a great example. Candace. Hey, you're a member of the Mere Christians community that I have the honor of leading and I love that you brought this up in your pre interview for this episode just how much your vocational small group of fellow managers in that community has been helpful to you. So I'm curious if you could just share maybe just one way in particular that your small group of fellow Mere Christians has served you well in your current role.

Yeah, it's the best. I love that group. So it's been fun getting to be in Mere Christians community and be around people that are thinking really deeply about these topics, that would have been enough. But once I finally got to really get integrated into the vocational small groups and, and found the manager's one, I remember very clearly feeling like, oh, this is my people.

These are my people. There they are. There they are.

Right? Because, I mean, like, I really do think that, I don't know, maybe this has just been the experience I've had. But like, a lot of the people that are thinking a lot about this and writing about it and all of that, it's usually more like entrepreneurial types, which is great. And like I said, like, I listen to, to mirror Christian's like, spiritual discipline because I am learning something every single time, so I'm absolutely able to learn from them. But when I got into the manager's vocational small group, I was like, oh, my people, yay. So it just has been good to hear from, learn from, and even share with that group to be able to be very particularly interested and excited about these topics and doing the same type of work that I'm doing. There are a few of us in it, so it's like we are all on the same page and working through, being parts of big organizations. Right. So we're not the people who can really make the change all the time. And so we're always working through how to still apply these principles when we're not the boss or, you know, not even close. In a lot of our cases, like, you know, there's five tiers in between the people, me and the people who actually make change and make big decisions for the work. So that's been a big deal to kind of apply it in a way that it's not the owners or the presidents or whatever of the company. It's just, you know, first level manager. And so what can you do in your world?

Yeah, and this is why we created these vocational small groups, by the way. This sounds like a shameless plug, but by the time we're airing this, actually doors to the community are closed, so you can't even sign up right now. But let me just rip on this for a second because I think this is really important. I do think a lot of Faith and word content is really geared towards entrepreneurs. My first book was explicitly geared towards Christian entrepreneurs with Called to Create. But I quickly realized after that book, man, that is not the only niche. I think God's called me to serve in my work and I want to help mere Christians. Whether you're a manager or the CEO or a mechanic in the trades as a, you know, solo preneur, or we have another vocational small group in the community for individual contributors who don't manage a team but work in a big company as an individual program or whatever, that's where the rubber meets the road. When you are shoulder to shoulder with Other people who get your stage vocationally who are in the same type of company, in the same type of size of company, that you can really start to more practically apply what you're reading in God's Word to your specific work. So if you're listening and you want to be a part of this, we get the waiting list up right now@jordanrayner.com MCC or just form your own group in your own neck of the woods. Right. In your own neighborhood. Right. Find two or three believers who are doing similar work and be in community with them. Because I think this is where the stuff that we talk about in this podcast gets really practical and really starts to change your life. Right, Candace?

Definitely. Yeah. And I would say to get to know what the people at your church do for a living, it's really big deal.

Yeah.

They're sitting in the pew next to you, but you probably have no idea where. Where they're going the next day on Monday.

And by the way, that's good advice for the mere Christians in the pews and the pastors in the pulpit. So for what it's worth. All right, Candace, you know the drill. Three questions we round out every episode with. Number one, which books do you find yourself gifting most frequently to others?

All right. Course Ever. Good endeavor. So again, most people are just getting introduced to this topic, so it's faith and Work 101. So when nobody, when people have not gotten here yet, I like to give that book away. That's the original for me, too. And then, of course, the Sacredness of Secular Work, I like to call it the big leagues. Big leagues.

Let's go.

Because it's, like, much deeper into the topic. It's Faith and Work, but it is not 101.

301.

Yeah. Call it 301. So that's been good. And it's very fun. Like, a few friends of mine have started it and gotten through a lot of it, and hearing the feedback of just like, the initial shock, which is fun, which I think we all had because they're big, big audacious concepts. But then, you know, I think we've talked about this a little bit before, which is that I think the payoff is better because of that. And people get to the end and they're like, oh, yeah, that was good. So it's been fun to talk to with people about that going back. So called to create. You just mentioned. I like to give that to friends that are creatives, because I think that's. Because you started there. I think you could Easily see that. That's like a group that people don't. I don't know, even, like, the Christian community doesn't really, like, support and, like, have a good handle on what to do for them, how to support them, what they need to hear. And again, like, start with God as a creator and we're in good shape. Yes, exactly. So, yes. Okay, so then I mentioned with by Scott Sky Jathani, and then another one has been that we talk a lot about in this community as well. Heaven by Randy Alcorn. All just kind of comes together, right? It all comes together.

Candace, who do you want to hear on this podcast? Maybe somebody from the Miracle Christians community. Maybe not. Who do you want to hear?

Yeah. Okay, so I've got, like, categories, so you came prepared.

This is so good.

Yes. When you listen this much to it, you know it's coming. Right. So I'm thinking, like, more athletes would be fun.

I know.

I think they have a really interesting perspective.

I know.

By the way, Allison Felix, get her on here.

So I put out the bad signal to Alice.

Yes.

Yeah, she's been. She. Allison's been invited. She's welcome anytime she wants.

Great. Yay. So that would be cool. Another one. I know you love Broadway. So do I. We gotta get some Broadway people on here. I think their perspective would be so interesting, especially just because of how grueling of work that is. Can't imagine doing eight shows a week. So I think it'll be interesting to hear a Christian perspective on that and then a big one. I was thinking music industry. So, you know, I feel like, especially with Christians in the music industry, you've either got like one extreme where there are Christians doing Christian music. Right. So you've got the Kirk Franklins of the world, who have just been doing this for decades. And it's pretty cool to see him stick with that. Right. And hear it be interesting to hear his perspective on, like, staying in that industry, etc. You know, mavericks City Music, others of those. But then you've kind of got the other side too, that people that are very openly and. And definitely Christians, and they say so, but they're not doing Christian music.

Yeah, those are the people I'm interested in who you got there.

Totally.

So you get like the Tori Kelly, Crystal Lewis, Crystal Lewis's daughter, Izzy Ray. So, like, I just think of people like that that are just like, they're committed to being believers, telling people no issues there, but they're not doing explicitly Christian music all the time. Sometimes they do. And Crystal Lewis like, started chief CCM forever, but she's done jazz and all this other stuff since. So anyway, yeah, so I hadn't thought about Tori Kelly.

I can't believe I hadn't thought about that name. That's a good name.

Top on the list. Yeah, that's a good name for that category.

All right, we're putting out the bad signal to Tori.

Yeah. And then one other person. So this is a music producer and executive, E.J. gaines. He is all on the backside. And I would love to hear a little bit about that because, you know, producers in, like, they're producing Christian and non Christian, every. Everybody's the same on the back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.

So I find that so fascinating. And I wonder, you know, what tensions.

Oh, that's super interesting. I like. I like that name a lot. Okay, great. All right, Candace, what's one thing you want to say before we sign off to this global audience of mere Christians? Maybe something we've already said that you want to restate or something fresh you want to leave listeners with?

Yeah. So find out what the people in the pews next to you do for a living and then go out from Sunday, go to your work, go to your job on Monday, which is where we're all headed after we get together and gather on on Sunday. And know that your actual work matters. That has changed everything for me. It's not the things around it or before or after it or whatever. It's your actual work that also matters so deeply to God and for his kingdom, even for the gospel centric, you know, kingdom that we are wanting to promote. It matters for that. So your actual work matters. So it's been fun to be very, like, focused on. At the end of the day, we're working for the glory of God and the good of others, which is what you like to say. That has been really helpful for me because it's, you know, short and sweet and it's easy to implement. Glory of God, good of others.

Well, hey, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. I feel privileged to be able to hear about your work in the community and being able to say that really genuinely and just thank you for being a picture of Christ caring for your people beyond what they could do for you, and thank you for not. I know a lot of people who are just encouraged that their work matters to God and they're like, great. You're doing the work of responding to that truth and making your work matter more for eternity. So kudos to you for that. Hey, if people want to connect with you, I'm assuming the best place to do that is LinkedIn. Just searching for Candace Laver LinkedIn's a good one.

That's easy. So that's a good place to go. And I want to commend you Jordan. I think think people maybe do it after the recording, but I wanted to make sure like you always commend others, but I just wanted to commend you for just your commitment to this topic, to faith and work, and to making sure that believers know that our work matters to God and for eternity. And I just love that you're just pumping out all the resources at all times and we can always look forward to something new from you for to be encouraged in that way. So thanks so much for the podcast. I love it. I listen to it all. So appreciate appreciate you saying that.

Thank you Candace. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode of the Mere Christians podcast, do me a favor and go leave a review of the podcast on Apple Spotify, wherever you're listening right now. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.

Foreign.

Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a Zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want.

It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever.

And you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5mechristians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses you'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.