Carey Nieuwhof (Host of The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the Gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I host a conversation with the Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Today's guest is my good friend Carrie Newhoff. He's the founder of one of the largest churches in North America, Connexus Church there in Toronto. Perhaps he's best known as the host of the Cary Newhoff Leadership Podcast. He's only the second person we've ever invited back to the Call to Mastery. Trust me, this is not because we're running out of amazing guests. It's because Carrie has some great new content that's in line with my new book, Redeeming youg Time, that I think is going to serve you guys really well in this new year. So Carrie and I sat down recently. We talked about these three questions we like to ask to help avoid the career comparison trap. We talked about how to know if you're doing your work with God and in his spirit. And finally, we talked about how knowing your biological chronotype can help you do what you're best at when you're at your best. I think you're gonna really love this conversation with my friend Carrie Newhoff. Carrie Newhoff. Such a good episode the first time you're back again. Welcome back.

Oh, man, I feel like this is rare and wonderful air. Thanks for having me.

It is rare. Yeah, you're welcome. So we were hanging out in person in Toronto in December. I think it was December 2019, right before the world shut down.

Oh, yeah, I remember those days.

I mean, don't you remember those? Those are good days.

I remember those days when people used to.

Oh, man. Hang out. A hotel. Yeah, whatever. So long. Two years. Biggest win, biggest challenge. Over the last two years for you.

Personally, Biggest win, biggest challenge, biggest challenge. The early days of COVID were brutal. So I've been very fortunate. I haven't had Covid. Didn't lose anybody to Covid. Parents are fine, kids Are fine, that kind of thing. So it didn't really impact my immediate world. Obviously. Heartbroken for the world. But I would say the biggest challenge was the first three months I was a public speaker. I thought, okay, we're going to lose a little bit of income. And then it's like, oh, a year is disappearing in public speaking. So fortunately, I ran a digital company, and within the first three weeks, we were able to pivot, and we came up with a second podcast that I started and then a couple of other innovative ideas that kind of made up for everything we lost with all the public speaking. And it was just, you know, it was the biggest problem, but it really positioned our company for the future. So I was very grateful for that and then pivoted to digital live events. So in the end, we recovered everything we lost due to live speaking and then some. So the challenge became a great opportunity, greatest blessing. It gave me a real opportunity to our biggest win, to rethink how I am living my life. And I was on the road 150,000 miles in 2019, and I loved it. I thought it was great. But being involuntarily grounded really made me rethink. Like, I really like being home, and I really, like. Like, my dad turned 80 in 2020, so just before the world, he has a March birthday. I was supposed to speak at south by Southwest that got canceled. I'm like, why are they canceling?

I remember you posting this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm.

That was one of the first posts where I was like, oh, this is. This is way bigger than we originally.

Thought when south by shut down. And they're like, yeah, we're not doing the event. I'm like, oh, okay, well, this is a real thing then, right? But we didn't know. And what that meant was, like, because of my schedule, we kept moving like family birthdays, and. Well, we can't schedule it. Can't celebrate it on his birthday, so we'll celebrate it then. And then I kind of thought, well, you know what? I want to celebrate my dad's birthday on his birthday. I want to celebrate my wife's birthday on her birthday. And so next year, who knows? Omicron and all the other stuff notwithstanding, we hope to be in Holland where he was born. I was born in Canada with my parents to see the Tulip Festival. So that's like a reshoot of my life. And I'm trying to spend more time with the people I love and a little less time randomly flying all over the world, doing things with, you know, also People I love, but trying to spend more time with the people who are closest to me.

So your dad was born in Holland?

He was. I'm the child of two immigrants. My dad came over as a young, well as a teenager at 19 to Canada. And then my mom came over as a girl of maybe 10 or 11 with her parents and they met in Canada. But yeah, I'm from Dutch stock.

I love you Canadians, by the way. I have two articles of Canadian clothing that I wear almost every single day. One is a. You know where I'm going with this? A Roots T shirt with a Canadian maple leaf. And the other is a roots sweatshirt. Both gifts from the Carrie Newhoff. I've never told you this. That root sweatshirt, every single morning at 5am in front of my Bible, I got my Carrie Newhoff green roots sweatshirt on. It's a great gift. I think about Carrie almost every morning at 5:10am Is that weird?

No, no, no, no. You know what? I love my root stuff. And we just years ago started giving that as thank yous to people who appeared on my podcast. And I get random thank yous from some of the most. You know, I don't want to drop names, but it's like I love sometimes it's a sock, it's a toque, it's a hoodie, it's a T shirt, it's whatever. And like, people love them and you really can't get them in the US which makes it so much fun to be able to ship it across the border. And full disclosure, I also bought Rootstock on their IPO and it's in the toilet. So I'm single handedly trying to turn that around, just so you know.

Well, I was just gonna say 80% of the reason why I keep writing books is so I could keep coming on your show and build out my Roots wardrobe. So, I mean, that's it. So for those who don't know, who didn't listen to your episode two years ago, what's the two minute quick summary of your career trajectory? Because it's not, you know, the typical story.

Oh, not typical at all. No. When I was a kid, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer and so pursued that. Got into radio as a teenager and then had a promising career there too. Decided to go to school in the end, which was a good choice. Met my wife, but in the middle of law school, she's also a lawyer. Felt a call into ministry. Didn't really know what to do with that. So I finished law. Finished law school, Worked for a Year in downtown Toronto, wrote the bar admission course, got called to the bar, and then out of obedience, resigned, went to seminary, wasn't sure what to do with this quote, calling, so ended up on a, you know, trial basis, I thought, okay, I will go to some small churches north of Toronto, see if I'm even cut out to be a pastor. And 26 years later, I'm still there, and served as a lead pastor of that church for two decades. Saw a lot of growth, passed that off in 2015 to a guy a decade younger than me. So I'm still involved at our church, but I'm not leading anymore and had this hobby about a decade ago of writing and podcasting that kind of took off. And now that's what I do. I just build into leaders. So I run a virtual company, Carrie Newhof Communications. We write books, I speak, we do a weekly leadership podcast and produce free and paid resources on the Internet for leaders. And we try to bring the best of the business world to the church and the best of the church world to the business world. Yeah. So that's what I do. That's the two minute summary.

Yeah. So I want to dive deeper into what you said a few minutes ago. You said you felt this call to be obedient to the call in your life into pastoral ministry, but you're talking to an audience of people who feel like they are being obedient in working outside the four walls of the church, which is more in line with what you're doing today. So do you feel like you're being obedient in all of those seasons of life, Carrie, for you personally?

Yeah, I appreciate the question. And the answer is yes. Like, when I was a lawyer, my biggest thing was, because I had rededicated my life to Christ, is how can I practice law ethically and as a person of faith? So I was going into ministry in the legal field. That was just my thing. I saw it as much ministry. And the thing about being called into vocational ministry was it was just so out of left field to pick up on what you said six years ago. I felt like it was the right time to step out of the lead pastor role at the church, in part because succession is always so hard in a business context, but also in a church context. And I had the person. I was a bit young. I just turned 50, but I'm like, okay, if I wait five more years, I don't think this, quote, successor is going to be around. So I thought, okay, I'll just do it. I'll take the plunge, but I didn't know what to do. And then what I'm doing now, which is serving the business and church world, was one of those things where I wasn't sure whether it was a calling, whether it was obedient or not, and kind of prayed about it. And I felt like a couple years ago, I had a moment. I had some friends praying for me, and, you know, I felt like God was saying to me, okay, are you enjoying your retirement now? Like, would you like to come back and work for me at some point? And I'm like, Because part of it was it was a profitable company. It wasn't huge. It's a lot bigger now a couple years later. But I didn't have a payroll that I had to meet every month. I could accept or decline things, and I still do, but, you know, I didn't have that infrastructure around me. And eight mouths, eight people who were relying on me for salary. I didn't have any of that. Basically, me and a couple of assistants. And then it's like, oh, do I really want to build something? Do I really want to build a company, or do I just want to play at this? And it really felt like God was saying, no, I want you to do this. And so, you know, now we have eight staff members, and we're able to reach so many more leaders than I ever imagined. And so I see this very much as a calling, even though I'm not, quote, a pastor. In fact, probably this year, for the first time, I'm comfortable saying, yeah, I'm a former pastor. It's like, yeah, it's what I used to do. Former lawyer, former pastor, former broadcaster. I just. I quit everything, I guess. I don't know, Jordan. I plan on doing this for a long time, though.

So this is interesting. It sounds like you struggled shedding that pastor label, by the way. Like, I've had a hard time. Only recently have I stopped saying, jordan Raynor, serial entrepreneur. It's like, that's not really the work anymore. Yeah, I'm chairman of the board of the company I used to run. But I'm really embracing this label of I create content. That's what I do. I write, I podcast, whatever. Was that an identity thing for you, that pastor label? Like, how have you thought through shedding that in a way?

Oh, that is a great question. I don't know that it was identity, because I was finding even calling myself a pastor when I was a lead pastor increasingly awkward because it almost, in a post Christian culture, creates a barrier. Like, if you tell Someone you're an engineer, they're like, oh, that's interesting. Or a lawyer, it's like, oh, ok. But if you say you're a pastor, it comes with all of this baggage. They assume you vote a certain way, that you're against a list of 98 things. And so when I was younger, it was pretty easy to say I was a pastor. As I got older and the culture kept changing, I found that people were almost allergic to you when you said that. So it wasn't like I was walking around going, oh, you know, I'm such a pastor and in Canada it brings you almost no prestige.

Right, right, right.

You know, it's like, oh, what, you couldn't get a real job?

Yeah, let's not forget you're in Toronto.

Right, right, right, exactly. Like you couldn't get a real job. Eh? Okay. So, you know, there's that aspect to it, but I think there probably was a sense of like, I want my life to matter, you know, in doing something significant for God and, you know, former pastor. What does that mean you got fired? Does that mean you fell in some kind of scandal? No, it means I did something for 20 years of my life and it's not my assignment anymore. Brad Lominick gave me. I don't know that you know Brad or not. Super great.

I know Brad well.

Yeah, yeah, Brad told me it's not a calling thing as much as it's an assignment. That my assignment was at a church for two decades and now it's doing this. And I would say at this point I feel very, very comfortable with that. But you know, you do raise identity because, you know, I remind myself like, we're very fortunate to have a well listened to podcast and millions of leaders who turn to us every year. But I'm also not naive enough to think that that's going to go on forever. But then how will I feel about my identity when nobody reads my books, nobody asked me to speak, nobody wants to interview me anymore? I hope I'll be okay, but I don't know whether, you know, like I worried about that when I was a pastor. I'm like, gosh, what's going to be left of my faith when I'm not in ministry and I don't have to prep a sermon? And the good news is on that is it's going strong. Maybe a little bit stronger than when I was a pastor. Not that there was like some kind of chronic weakness or mask anything, but just like, actually I'm really enjoying my walk with God. Right now, which is good, because that told me that I have a relationship with Christ that was bigger than my call as a pastor.

You just published this great book at your Best, and in it you say that you regularly evaluate whether you're thriving in these five key areas of life. Spiritual, relational, emotional, financial, and physical. What does it look like specifically with the spiritual? How do you evaluate whether or not you're thriving spiritually?

It's subjective and objective. Subjective. Do I feel close to God? Is it something I do in the morning like you? 5, 10am I'm around the same time? Or is it a constant awareness of God's presence? And I really want to. You know, when I was younger, I would have my quiet time in the morning. And then often it's like, oh, yeah, I'm a Christian. You kind of forget later in the day. And now I kind of hope. And I feel like most days it's a lens through which I see. It's how I'm viewing the world. So am I close to God when I'm on a walk, when I'm in a meeting, when I'm doing financials, when I'm with my wife, when I'm with friends? Am I the same person privately as I am publicly? Do my lives have some of the marks? Probably a formative passage for me is Galatians 5. There's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, and self control. And is my life increasingly exhibiting those qualities and characteristics? Or is it looking like dissension, anger, faction, jealousy, discord, which are enumerated in the verses prior to the fruits of the Holy Spirit? So I probably look in those categories and then honestly, check your bank account, check your calendar. Are you actually giving to the kingdom? Are you sacrificing for it? How is your time invested? Those are some of the things I would look for to see if I've got margin or whether I'm really running on fumes when it comes to spirituality.

No, that's good. Go a little deeper here though, because I think it's hard for people to see practically, what does it look like to know that I'm doing my work with God when I'm building a spreadsheet at work or when I am building a pitch deck for a prospective client. Like, is it the fruit of the Spirit? Is that the mark of knowing whether you're doing that work with God or without Him?

I think look at how you are interacting with your colleagues, your clients, your bosses is a really good question. So again, that list of the fruits of The Holy Spirit. Is that showing up in your weekly meetings? Is that showing up with your colleagues in your lunch meetings? What about with the angry client, you know, who's not happy with the way that you're performing? Are you just responding in kind, or is there an actual attempt to pray for that person, to be kind to that person? And you know, I'm not saying I've fired clients too. There are some people who are just toxic. It's like, okay, time to get away. But I would look to see what the quality of your relationships are. And then would anyone be surprised that you're a Christian? Do people come to you when they're like, hey, I got something going on in my life. Do you mind if I talk to you about it? And that could be over. Over lunch or over a coffee break or, you know, over dinner one night or frankly, at the end of a meeting. And do they see you as a safe harbor? I would look for markers like that, maybe.

Jordan, those are great markers. I love that I mentioned at yout Best, your book in this time management category. I released my own Redeeming Youg Time, Like 5 Weeks after your. Something like this. Yeah.

We didn't talk to each other until later. Right? We talked about this on my show.

I know.

Uh huh.

Yeah, we talked about this on your show, which everybody needs to go listen to that episode. But I loved how vulnerable you were at the end of the episode of your podcast. You were basically like, hey, Jordan, you and I are duking it out back to back on the best seller lists. How do you deal with professional jealousy? And I'm so glad you asked because I was jealous too. Those whole weeks, like, oh man, Carrie's beating me today. And then feeling sinful pride of like, I'm crushing Carrie today. Right.

So I'm curious. I'm fine as long as I'm on top. Okay. That's what I want you to know, Jordan.

I'm just fine as long as I'm winning. Yeah, totally. How do you deal with this? How do you deal with professional jealousy?

That is something God had to wrestle down in my life when I was in my 30s. And I wasn't writing books at the time, but it applies across the boards, whether you're writing books or building the best slide deck. Right. For the company retreat or the pitch or whatever you're doing. I was jealous of another communicator. And it was somebody in our church, somebody that I had led to faith, who had a real gift. And I remember sitting at my dining room table I was maybe 37 years old. I'm just gonna. It's roughly around that time. And I remember reading the book of James and it said, if any of you is jealous, you know that is not from God, but it's actually from the devil. And if you feel that that spirit. I'm paraphrasing of just bitter envy and strife, I'm like. And it just arrested me. I'm like, oh, my goodness. That's exactly how I feel about this guy. And it was creating. I was a leader. I could invite him to speak or invite him not to speak. And there was part of me that didn't want him to speak because the crowd liked him better than they liked me. And I'm like, oh. And what I did was I went back to that passage every single day for maybe a week. And I just read those few verses and I'm like, God, this has got a grip on my heart and I'm a jealous person. It's not like that's a once and done battle, but it's like some stronghold disappeared at that time. And so I don't struggle with it in the same way. And as I've gotten older, I've got a couple decades on you, Jordan. I have become much more an abundance thinker, much more kingdom minded. I'll give you an example. Okay. Very, very recent. So let me talk about the book, and then I'll talk about something else. So when I saw all the time management books coming out, because when I was writing draft one, John Mark Comer was working on the Ruthless elimination of Hurry. And I read one of his chapters, and I'm like, I just wrote that chapter, and I swear I'm not hijacking his files. He had some of the same research I did. I'm like, oh, crap. And then you, me, and Kristi Wright from the Ramsey Group, we all released time management books within minutes of each other. And I'm like, how is this just in the air right now? And then I think it's a big universe. You could give you and I the same assignment. Exactly. Write a chapter on the morning routine. Guaranteed yours is going to look different than mine. It's just going to. Because you have two people tackling the same problem. And so I'm really in more and more of an abundance as much as I have that, oh, you know, Jordan's on top of me today. Or Christie is now beating both of us. Right.

Which is usually the case, let's face it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she does have the Ramsey organization behind Exactly. But, you know, it's one of those. And part of it is I decided I'm going to have you. Okay, so here's a fun thing. If you have that scarcity mindset, and I still do, it's not hard to go back there. It doesn't own me the way it used to. Here's what you do. You push other people into the spotlight. So my book released in September. Yours released, I think it was the end of September. Right, Jordan?

October. Mid October.

Yeah, October. Okay. Or mid October. What I did for September on my podcast was I just invited other time management experts onto my podcast, including you. Now, yours is going to broadcast a little bit later just because of scheduling, but I'm like, I am just going to feature David Allen. I'm going to feature Christy Wright. I'm going to have Jordan over. And by pushing you into the spotlight, got to a point where I'm like, this is not about me. It's bigger than me. And a scarcity mindset would say, you know, David Allen is dead to me, or Jordan Rayner is dead to me.

Don't even mention his name. It's like the old political trick. Don't mention the competitor's name. As if people can't Google it. Yeah.

People can't figure it out. Co can. What? What? What? Is there another soft drink out there? I didn't think there was. No.

Right, right.

So there was that. And I found that very liberating. And so, you know, you got to look at it as a really big kingdom.

Yeah. I think this is a big deal for a lot of our listeners. I hear this question a lot in a lot of different vocational contexts. And so I've actually been thinking a little bit more rigorously about this since you asked me the question on your podcast. And I've written down these three questions that I just saved to a note on my phone that I pull up ever since you asked me that question, every time this happens, number one, if I'm finding myself jealous of somebody, I asked myself, do I care about God's glory or my own glory? Right. Because if he uses Carrie Newhoff or somebody else to steward their life more productively for his glory, I should be able to say, blessed be the name of the Lord. Right. And if I can, I know I'm doing that work for my glory and not his, and I need to repent. The second question, which I did mention on your podcast, I asked this all the time. I say, am I even playing the same game as this person? Right. Like, you Wrote at your best for a general market. I did not. I wrote my book for the church. Right. Like Kobe didn't compare himself to Tiger Woods. Right. They're playing different games. It's not even the same thing. The last question I'm starting to ask myself is, has God called me to be the best or to do my best? In the parable of the talents answers this crystal. Clearly the two talent servant received the exact same blessing as the five talent servant. It's not about being the best, about doing our best with whatever God's given us to steward. Amen.

Amen. That is great. The other person that really helped me with this over the years is Andy Stanley. He's got quite a bit of public teaching on this, so it's widely available. But the bottom line when it comes to envy or jealousy is he says the remedy is celebrate what God has given others and. And leverage what God has given you. And that act, which sometimes is a discipline. It's like, I'm going to celebrate. Jordan, I'm going to say congratulations on your launch. I'm going to say congratulations on being number one in our category. It's like, what is the antidote to greed? It's generosity. That if you pry some money out of my hands and you give it to someone in need, that. That breaks down the greed that always lives inside me. So celebrate what God has given others. Push them into the spotlight. Keep. Celebrate it. Applaud. That is going to break down a stronghold in your life and then leverage what God has given you. Yeah. And I've got some ideas on time management, too. Hopefully they can help. So just leverage your gift. Don't be envious and celebrate what God has given others. I've found that to be so helpful.

I loved. I really did love. At your best. I love the first chapter on building a life you don't want to escape from. And I think so many people, especially within the context of work, have fallen into this trap. They go to work so that they can one day escape from work and move on to what they see as really meaningful, really pleasurable things in life. I'm curious, as a former pastor using that label very intentionally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How can the biblical doctrine of work help our listeners build careers they don't want to escape from?

So there is a sense, and I had to correct my teaching on this as a preacher where I thought work was something. And you do a great job in your book of pointing this out, that work was something that was introduced after the fall. No, work was something Pre Genesis, chapter three, work is present in chapter two, where you're supposed to go and, you know, have dominion over creation, be a steward of creation, and you're supposed to go work the garden. What happened in Genesis 3 is that work was cursed. So you do a launch and it didn't go the way you expected. So you were hoping to have a record quarter and you lost money, right? So you have that kind of thing as of Genesis 3. So repeat the question to me again, Jordan, just so I got off.

No, this is good. Like, how does an understanding of Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 allow us to approach our work in a way that we don't want to escape from it? Because the work is cursed. Work is hard, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and the bad news is there's work in heaven. Everybody thinks it's like one big golf game, right? So. But we know we're going to be given a job of at least judging and ruling and whatever that means. Nobody's 100% sure, but it doesn't at appear to be the big cruise in the sky that, you know, we imagine it is in popular culture. So what I think theologically we need to do is we need to bring. So the kingdom of God. When Jesus came with the kingdom of God, there's a sense in which we say, oh, the kingdom of God is one day, right? Like one day when Christ returns, etc. But Jesus also said, the kingdom of God is here and the kingdom of God is near, and the kingdom of God is among you. And so I think what happens is we go to work and we get caught up in this whirlwind, and I call it the stress spiral. We're overwhelmed, overworked, over, committed. And we think the kingdom of God is one day. So maybe, you know, it's like, well, that's Friday at 5:00', clock, or that's the weekend away at the woods. And Jesus is like, no, no, no, the kingdom of God is here. And so what I was trying to do with at your best, or what I am trying to do with at your best, is trying to say, how do we redeem the work? Right? You're the guy redeeming your time. How do we redeem the work? How do I redeem Monday? And I think that is when you bring a sense of Sabbath into your day and you start every day that way. That's when you learn the power of saying no. One of the things most people wouldn't believe. And as a preacher, you run into this. And I always enjoy preaching this But Jesus said no. He was very good at saying no. And you would assume the way we treat Jesus, that he healed everybody who needed healing during his ministry. That's actually not true. There are times where the crowd is pressing in on him and he's like, okay, that's it for today. We're going to go. And people, well, there's people to be healed, and people are hungry. And he's like, we're going, gone. And then he disappears in the wilderness, and you don't even know where he is. And then eventually he comes back. What is he doing? He is figuring out, how do I build a ministry that doesn't clobber me? How do I. Because he's fully human and fully divine. How do I find a place where I can give people what they want, but also commune with my heavenly Father so that this work is from him and sustainable? And I think that's what we've lost. We're just, you know, as Ken Blanchard has famously said, even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. And a lot of us just, we go at it five days a week, you know, 70 hours a week, and we're like, well, I'm still a rat, but now I get to go to the lake. And I'm like, I love my life. And this is why, you know, five years, six years post pastoring, I hope I get to do this for 20 years. And I'm sitting. I don't know that you can hear it or not. We got the door open a little bit, but I got the ocean to my right hand side. And we're sitting here in Southern California doing some remote work for a little while, and it's fantastic. And there's a rhythm and a pace and I don't need to escape. And I'm going back to the snow of home on Friday. But you know what? I want to live at a pace where I'm not like, oh, I can't wait for summer. Oh, I can't wait for the weekend. Oh, I can't wait for. And meaning is not something you just get from your job. It's something you bring to your job.

Yeah. So how do you make this pace sustainable? Right. I'm hearing so many people, especially leaders right now, blaming Covid for their crazy season of life. Like, ah, man, yeah, work's just really busy right now because of COVID It's like your life was crazy pre Covid. I remember. Right. So how do you make the pace sustainable? You mentioned Sabbath, this weekly idea. But what can we be doing week in, week out, day in, day out, to not burn out in the work God's called us to do.

Well, I think Covid as an excuse has to go because, yeah, it was crazy for two months when nobody knew which end was up. We're moving into year three of COVID if you're using that as the reason. I used to do that pre Covid, I would go to a family gathering and they'd be like, where were you this week, Kerry? And it's like, oh, you know, I was in Dallas or Memphis or whatever. And where are you going next week? Los Angeles, whatever. And I would always say, it's just a busy season. And then eventually it began to call me on it. And a few years ago I realized, you know, seasons have beginnings and they have endings. If your season has no ending, it's not a season, it's your life. And I think a lot of us just tell ourselves, well, it's really busy now. But after Christmas, after Easter, after the summer break, after Covid, after, it's like, no, you're going to be 90 years old playing that tune. And so we've got to look at how we spend our day. And you're right, Sabbath is a really good practice. But it's kind of like telling an alcoholic just to stop drinking on Tuesday. It's like, yeah, take one day a week, just take it off, and then go back into the crazy. And that's why even vacations aren't a good answer. Because there'll be a number of entrepreneurs listening to the show or Christians listening to the show who took two weeks off. They know how to do time off well. But time off won't heal you when the problem is how you spend your time on. Because you come back Monday first, Monday back at 11am After a wonderful rest, and you're like roadkill by lunch. It's just. It's clobbered you. So the key is to think about how to spend your time. You've got some amazing time management tips. One of the things that really helped me was energy management. So we have 24 equal hours in the day, but the hours don't feel equal and they don't produce equally. So I know you well enough and you outline this in redeeming your time. You're a morning person, right? And you have a very disciplined routine. So am I. What I used to do before I figured out the principles and at your best, the thrive cycle is I used to do a lot of breakfast meetings and I would just meet people because that's often when business people want to meet. But the problem with breakfast meetings is the morning is my best time. Those are my three to five peak productivity hours in a day. So I get back from breakfast meeting not at 8 when I thought I would because it went till 8:30. But then I go to a drive through and I get some coffee and then I go into the office and you're chatting and then you sit down at your desk and you've got, oh, seven text messages I got to respond to. And look at that, 14 emails. And then it's lunch and you're like, okay, I better go get some lunch. And then you get called into a meeting when you go back and in the office and then you work on your slide deck and then you're tired so you go for a break and then you catch up on email and then the day's over. And what did you accomplish? Answer nothing.

I don't think our audience knows what you're talking about. I don't think anybody knows this.

That only happened to me, ever. And so what I did, and this is what I encourage your audience to do, is divide your day into three zones. Green, yellow, red. All the brain science, as you know, Jordan, says that most people only have three to five peak productive hours in a day. So for you and I, those happen in the morning. We're bright, lucid, clear ideas flow, relatively easy. Some people are night owls. That might be between 8 and midnight or 10pm and 2am I can't do that. I'm a zombie at that hour. And other people peak midday. Maybe 10 to 2 are their best hours. It doesn't matter. You got 3 to 5. Identify them. That's your green zone. And then we all have a couple hours in a day. No matter how well we rest and exercise, where we're kind of dragging, I call that the red zone. Do you have a couple hours or an hour in the day, Jordan, where you're not as sharp and you're tired and it's like, I better get some caffeine. When does that happen for you?

It's when I check my email in the afternoons. Late afternoons?

Yeah. So you start to fade a little bit. For me, that's four to six in the afternoon. That's when I'm like, that's about right. Either need to work out, take a nap or do something. A lot of people, as I've asked them the question, they find it between one and three is just sort of the witching hour for them at work. They're just having trouble staying awake. Regardless of all that, that's your red zone. You have one or two of those hours in a business day. And then everything else is yellow. So green, your best, red, your worst. Everything else is yellow. And the secret is to do what you're best at when you're at your best. So if for me, when I was a preacher, the most important thing I could do was write my weekend message. And what happens if you live the day the way I described earlier with the breakfast meeting and at 4 o', clock, you got nothing done? Guess what I have to do as a parent of young kids? I gotta bring my message home. And then while my kids are trying to watch TV or game or play with me, I'm like, sorry, kids, I gotta work. And I did that for too many years when my kids were young. Well, if I just dedicate that green zone and say, no meetings, no appointments, no disruptions, no distractions, I'm gonna work on my message. Boom. I was talking to a journalist today. It's blown me away. I mean, we've had 20,000 leaders go through the content now in the last couple of months, and he's saying, kerry, this has been so powerful. He said, I was always behind on deadlines and he was interviewing me for a publication he's working on. But he says, I just love the book. And he said, so what I did, I killed all my breakfast meetings. I just write one or two articles in the morning. He said, you didn't talk about this in the book. But the financial impact of this has been huge for my family to the point now where I am so far ahead. I am taking the month of January off.

That's awesome.

And I'm like, dude, way to go. But what happens then? Like, think about whatever that is. Your pitch, your slide deck, your Excel spreadsheet, your quarterly report, your strategic planning for the next quarter, whatever that most important work is. If you can do that when you're at your best, you're going to do a much better job. And when that's finished, let's say you finish by Tuesday at 11:00am it almost doesn't matter what happens for the rest of the the week because you're like, oh, yeah, you want to pull me into that meeting? Fine, I got 17 emails, fine, because your big stuff is done. And then when you go home, you're not pulling out the laptop at 8 o' clock going, I just need a half hour. You don't need a half hour because you got your most important stuff done. When I made those changes over a decade ago, about 15 years ago, changed my life.

Jordan, I love this so much. And it jives with something I talked about in Redeeming your Time. I think a lot of night owls listen to podcasts like yours, podcasts like mine read books on time management and they just feel defeated because they just can't will themselves to be morning people, which is what they've been told their whole lives. And the science says that God has designed roughly 30% of people to be night owls. And what I love about your at yout Best framework is it gives those people grace to say, hey, it doesn't matter when you're at your best. What matters is that you do what you're best at when you're at your best. So if that's in the afternoon or evening for you, God bless you. Go for it. Take meetings in the morning, do your email and your shallow work in the morning. In the afternoons or evenings, do your deep work. Have you found because people reading Redeeming your Time have been like, I've never heard this before. I've never been let off the hook for not being a morning person. Are you hearing the same thing from readers of at your Best?

Very much so. A lot of liberation and the whole idea of energy management is probably the most revolutionary idea in the book. And of course, when you say it as simply as we've just discussed it, people are like, duh. And even the journalist I was talking to, or, you know, I could drop some names, I won't do it because these have been private conversations, but very well known preachers. I had one guy tell me, and he preaches, he influences thousands, if not millions around the world. He says it's like there's two Johns. He said the John before I read at your Best and the John after. He says, when I was trying to write in the afternoon, I was a disaster. And he said my preaching is known around the world. But like I just was, it was hard. And he said, since I switched to the morning, it's been so much better. And again, if he was a night owl, he would just carve out like devote 10pm to 2am all you have to do is tune out the distractions whenever your peak time is. And the other thing that I think was revolutionary for people is that these are repeating patterns. We like to think of ourselves as creative and everything is so ad hoc. The reality is we're creatures of habit. Like, if you don't believe that, put the toothbrush in another drawer or take another Way home from work, you're going to be totally confused and lost. And so those rhythms will play out almost identically day after day after day. As long as you're not messing with time zones or a waking baby or that kind of thing, you're usually in this season of life going to be best in your morning, in the afternoon, or in the evening. So you can count on it much the way you can sunrise and sunset. It's pretty predictable. And so you just know, generally speaking, I'm going to get three to four really good hours in the morning or in the afternoon or in the evening. I got to protect those and treat them like they're my most valuable asset, because they are. I almost wanted to call the book, and you can't do it for obvious reasons when I tell you I almost wanted to call it the Three Hour Workday, because there is a certain sense in which, if you leverage those three peak hours well, you are going to be in great shape. And if you blow them, it doesn't matter what you do to make up, you've kind of blown it.

That's a great title. I mean, I get the Tim Ferriss problem, but that's a great. That's a great title. I really dig it. Hey, so you mentioned the season of life when your kids were young. You have two sons, right?

Yeah. Yeah, two sons. They're in their 20s.

They're in their 20s now. Can I ask for a bit of parental counseling here, Pastor Gary Newhall?

Sure.

All right.

Yeah.

I think a lot of our audience shares this question. I've just been super convicted lately that I am not nearly as intentional and strategic about leading my family as I am about leading in my work. And objectively, this is absurd. God can call anyone to do the work that I do at my laptop, but he has called me alone to be a husband to Cara and a dad to Ellis and Kate Emery. Did you ever figure this out? And if so, like, how can we all ensure that we are as strategic about our families as we are about our work? What's the secret here?

One of the great regrets of my life is that I didn't know this. I hadn't figured it out in my 30s. And I've told my kids this, and I feel bad about it. Like, I wish I could go back and figure out. I'll give you an example. So this morning, we're sort of on a family working vacation, and I definitely had stuff to do and things didn't ship. But my oldest son needed to return a motorcycle. He Rented to a place 20 minutes away. And we were trying to figure out how to make it work in the day. And the only time it really made sense was in the morning. So I gave up my green zone and some productive time to take him back and then drive him back to the house. I would not have made that decision when I was in my 30s. And as I was driving up, I'm like, ah, gosh, I wish I knew this stuff. And to me it's a no brainer. We actually missed something in our company that didn't go out on time. It's like, you know what? That'll go out on time. But this is really special time. And I think the problem with a lot of us, actually, this is quantifiable. Deloitte, the big accounting firm, released a study in the summer of 2021 that said 82% of executives and CEOs go home feeling physically and emotionally exhausted at the end of every workday. In other words, they left it all out on the field. They gave it all to work. And I used to do that when I was in my 30s and I don't want to do that anymore. So what I would say to parents, particularly in your case, and you're a textbook, like, I was not writing books in my 30s. You are, Jordan. But maybe it's like an hour a day where you've got to reduce your expectations as a parent of young children. It's like, okay, I'm tired, the baby's still waking at night. My green zone is like one hour right now. One day I might be in my 50s and I'll be an empty nester and I'll have a four hour green zone. But right now mine is one hour. And then the other thing I would say is on weekends and again, stuff I wish I could get back, I'm a little bit of a neat freak. A lot of a neat freak. And I would spend not knowing I had a green zone. My most energetic hours, like mowing the lawn, washing the car, getting all that stuff off my list because I love to have it off my list. And by the time it came for the relational stuff, I would be tired. And what I would do now is flip it. Spend the relational time doing your relational things and hang out with your kids, go play with them, do something fun, take them to the park. And then later on when you're a little bit tired in your yellow zone, yeah, go mow your lawn like it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter when that happens. But again, stuff I wish I could get back. And that's one of the reasons I'm really committed to the messages is this. Of this book is. I know most of my readers will be in their 20s or 30s and maybe this is a different story and I'm writing a different story now, but it's not the same as if I could go back 20 years and pick it up then.

Yeah, I've just been convicted of. I haven't started this yet. I'm planning to do it in the new year, but cutting 30 to 60 minutes off of my workday at the very end.

Oh, yeah.

Just to work strategically on personal projects. For example, my kids just finished. I've been walking through Tim Keller's New City Catechism with my kids and we finished it. I want to find something new to disciple my kids at breakfast every morning, but that takes time. And I'm exhausted at 7 o', clock, 7:30 when they go to bed. Like I'm not going to do it then. So just making the time for that during my workday. And thank God I have the luxury to do that. But it's so funny. You talk about mess driving you nuts. That's me. I will find myself instead of spending time with my kids and playing a game, picking up stuff around the house all afternoon. And I'm just trying to discipline myself. It's like batch it when they're watching TV for 15 minutes before bed, that's when I will pick up the house. Just making that pre decision enables me to not constantly be a neat freak, you know, throughout the day.

Oh, I. I hear you though. Yeah. You know all those things. But you're catching. Catching it in real time, which is fantastic. I would just say continue to pursue that.

Well, I feel like a failure most days, but at least it's good to hear I'm doing some things right. Hey. All right, Carrie, three questions. We wrap up every conversation with number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others these days? Other than, of course, at your best.

Or redeeming your time. Right, yeah. Which one? I find I'm often gifting, recommending Doris Kearns Goodwins hard name to say. Leadership in Turbulence Times. Always suggesting that. Another one that I've given away a lot of and done a team study is Reed Hastings and Aaron Myers, Netflix, no Rules Rules. Really love those books.

Okay. I have been talking about no rules rules. None nonstop for a year.

Is it not amazing?

It was by far the best book I read last year. Like no Questions Asked it was so good. That's a great one. All right, guys, you can find Those books@jordanraynor.com bookshelf all right, Kerry, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about their faith, talking about their work and their pursuit of masterful work?

Oh, I will listen to endless conversations with Tim Keller, and he's not doing many interviews right now.

That's a great answer. I love it.

Did you have him on at one point?

I did. He was promoting. Gosh, I can't remember. It was the Uncommon Ground book that I love. That he did with Lecrae and a bunch of collaborators, and he was great. And actually. So you interviewed Tim in person right before the pandemic. Am I remembering this correctly?

Yeah, you are remembering exactly right. We were talking about it after, and it's like we probably Covid all around us, and we didn't know it was February of 2020.

Yes, that's right.

Right before his diagnosis of pancreatic cancer. Cancer. So he had cancer within him and we had a pandemic around us and we didn't know.

That's right. And I talked to him. I don't know, the second or third week of March of 2020. And I'll never forget, before we started recording, I don't think it's a problem to share this. I was just like, hey, how are things in Manhattan? And he was like, way worse than the news is making it out. He's like, every single person I know know somebody on their street who has died. This is the third week in March. This is before it got nuts. I'll never forget that. That was wild. All right, Kerry, last question. One thing from our conversation today, you want to reiterate before we sign off.

I would say that last part of the conversation between you and me about stages of life don't wait. You'll have a lot of time to reevaluate everything in your 40s and 50s. Don't wait. If you're young, do it now and make the changes you need to make. You won't regret it.

It's good. Carrie, I want to commend you for the exceptional, eternally significant work you've done as a pastor, but also as a lawyer and now as a podcaster and leadership guru. Thank you for giving us some great tips on how to be at our best. And just thank you for reminding us that a pursuit of masterful work at the office and at home is just part of our response to this belief that this life matters for eternity. What we do today will pay dividends for eternity. Thus, we should be fully engaged with whatever our work is. Hey, guys, Carrie's great book is at yout Best, how to get time, energy and priorities working in your favor. Kerry, thanks again for joining us again on the call to mastery.

Jordan, it's been a joy. Thanks for doing what you're doing. Really appreciate you.

I hope you guys love that episode. Hey, hey. It's December 22nd. Merry Christmas, everybody. Take some time as you examine the Christmas story to praise our Savior for our unmerited salvation. But also look beyond the baby in the manger. Look at Mary, look at Joseph. And look at how remarkable it was that God chose to place Jesus into the home of a place carpenter named Joseph. Right? He could have placed Jesus in the home of a Pharisee. He could have placed him in the home of a prophet. Instead, he put him in the home of a carpenter, knowing that Jesus would spend the majority of his adult life making things with his hands the way many of us do today. Thank him for the good gift of work. But thank him most of all for the gift of salvation that comes from Christ alone. Amen. I love you guys. Merry Christmas. I'll see you next week.