Chris Basham (Jordan's Pastor)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of our great God and the good of others. Each week I'm bringing a conversation with somebody who's following our Lord Jesus Christ and also pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We're talking about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. Today, it is my great privilege to introduce you all to my pastor, my home church here in Tampa, Florida. His name is Chris Basham. He's the pastor of the church at Odessa, one of the most masterful teachers and communicators of God's word I have ever known or heard. I love him because he's so consumed with the gospel and so eloquent at articulating it over and over and over again, but always finding a way to make it sound new. So Chris and I sat down. We talked about why our sometimes insufficient view of the gospel can lead to a really poor theology of work. We talked about how gaps in between the creation of content, be it a sermon or a book, and the delivery or publishing of that content can lead to great creative progress, breakthroughs, and analogous thinking. And we talked about how every job, even trash collection, can bring us one step closer to the recreation of Eden. You guys are going to love this conversation with my friend, my pastor, Chris Basham. Finally got legendary Chris Basham on the podcast. How did we get Tim Keller on here before you?

How.

How'd that happen?

I can think of about a million reasons. I'm a little daunting to know that I followed him.

So we're recording this on April 15th. Actually, we just released the killer episode this morning. We're in the middle of this coronavirus crisis and I forgot to text you this the other day, but obviously it's been about a month or so since we've seen each other face to face. At church, at least. And the other day, Ellison, my five year old, comes to me and she's like, hey, I really miss my brother. I want to see my brother again. I was like, what are you talking about? You guys are listening know I have three daughters I'm like, what are you talking about? And she kept saying it and she goes, pastor Chris.

Yeah, well, I mean, I know she saw the back of my head, apparently at a basketball game a few months ago when she thought that was me. I guess all bald guys are some.

Other bald guys, some other young balding gentlemen. Yeah, I love that though. I love that, that she missed her.

But I'm grateful that she sees me that way.

So let's start here. You are one of the most exceptional communicators I know. I'm really excited for you to talk about craft for a couple of minutes. So let's start here. Take us through your process for preparing a sermon. What does the arc of your week look like?

So Sunday afternoon, I'll read the text over and over and over again. I'll begin reading it over and over and over again. I feel like for me, if I can't communicate it clearly and succinctly in my own words, then how am I really going to be able to teach it? I need to get it in me first. I really, really try to get it in me first. And so I start Sunday. And then the difficulty for me sometimes is first of all, I will try to figure out, okay, what's the main point? What is the main point of the book? And how does the main point of this section, how is it accomplishing that main point? And then try to put that in an outline form. And once I get the outline, that really helps me and shapes me and helps guide me through of just putting myself in the listeners, the audience's ears and just trying to present it in a way that I want them to know what the word says. I want them to walking out. Here's what I want them to walk out thinking about. And so really it starts on Sunday.

So this sounds pretty similar to how I write books. So you start with the end of mine. Are you like, okay, this is the big idea. You can't communicate more than one big thing in a book. So here it is, here it is, here's the point. And I think the majority of writing actually happens in outlining.

Right.

Like outlining is where, honestly, I probably spend 70% of my time thinking about what I want to say. Right, exactly. And then I go into full on prose paragraphs in a Google Doc flutter, fleshing it out word for word.

I would agree with that.

Is that how you do it?

Absolutely. The vast majority of the time is putting the skeleton, if you will, together and just really putting that outline together to guide. Because of course as you know, I present those handouts to the audience and they can follow through with me. And hopefully my goal with even that. And we have binders that people can take home. And my goal for that is, hopefully at the end of a book, they then can go teach somebody else that book themselves or go back and restudy it themselves.

But I haven't told you this, but I've actually used the notes in that way for some of my devotionals. I'm actually in a series right now. I started following you in Philippians, and now I'm a little bit ahead of you in my devotionals that go out to my audience right now. But I've used those notes that have been tremendously helpful to me. All right, so you start immersing yourself in the text Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening. I'm assuming you start outlining on Monday. When is the outline done?

Hopefully by Tuesday. Wednesday I have a pretty good idea because I really protect my calendar on Thursday. So I write my manuscript out. I know some people do outline form. I write it out word for word. And so Thursday, I really start getting nervous if by Thursday afternoon I'm not well on my way to completion, because then I need to produce an outline for the fill in the blanks that my secretary puts in the form that the audience receives. And if I don't get my part done, she can't get her part done. So really, it's interesting. It's a unique responsibility. I don't mean to put more weight on it than other jobs. It's just every single week, you start over from scratch and you gotta get after it. And so by Monday afternoon, Tuesday, I really need to have that outline where I want it, so then I can start, quote, unquote, writing the sermon and putting the meat on the bones.

So two things I really love about your process. Number one, I love that you write everything out word for word. This is what I do when I speak, right? If I'm going to travel to a conference, I write out every single word. Then I try to memorize it right, as much as I can, but I write it out word for word to be crystal clear on what I want to say. Here's the other thing I love about it. You're done with your manuscript. Most of the time on Thursdays, you don't preach until Sunday. I know a lot of pastors who show up Sunday morning, and they just finished the manuscript. You and I have talked privately about this before, just about the value in that gap between Thursday and Sunday. Can you talk about why you value that space in between manuscript and delivery?

Well, I value it for a couple reasons. Number one is it gives me time to get it in me. I really have time to continue to read it. Just really get it in me so that I'm not up there just reading a manuscript that I really know. It's in me what I'm trying to communicate. And I'm really passionate about it, but it also allows me time to continue to edit it. It's a big deal. I'm very nervous, extremely nervous when I step up to the pulpit. We're talking about the word of God here. And there's a high responsibility to get it right. To stand up there before an audience and say, thus says the Lord, is a daunting task. And I want to get it right. So in that Thursday to Sunday gap, it allows me to time to pray over it. It allows me the time to continue reading it, to smooth out some transitions, to reword maybe what I'm saying, to make it hopefully as clear as possible. So it's not rushed. It's just not rushed. It allows me time to get it in me.

Yeah. And you recite it quite a bit in between Thursday and Sunday, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. I'll go over it. I mean, like I said, I'm still writing it. In some ways, I'm reading it. Yeah. Massaging it. So I review it a lot before Sunday.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the gap also enable you to make creative connections between the text and life? Like frequently on Sunday mornings, the announcement analogies you deliver are stuff that happened on Saturday and Friday. Do you find that that analogous thinking happens in between manuscript and delivery?

Well, I do. I think that number one, that's also the part of, for me is starting the text on Sunday afternoon is I have all week to hopefully be involved with the life of the people who are members of Odessa. I'm also a citizen of the same country they are. So I have all week to be thinking. I am thinking about the text and what I am preaching all week. And I've consistently pull over in the car, write down notes on a piece of paper. I have a little pad there in the car. I'll write down thoughts, hopefully. It's the Holy Spirit just speaks to me at odd times, but I'm constantly meditating on that text. And yeah, I try to be aware of what's going on in the culture. I try to relate it. But also when I'm mindful of the text, I see it illustrations of that pop up in everyday life and instances, whether it's my own family or others. So, yeah, it gives you time. I think the word I use, it's just not to be rushed. I don't want to ever rush it. I don't want to ever just give you something. I want people to leave. Having seen the greatness, the awesomeness of God, but how living and active, like Hebrews 4:12, that the word of God is the most applicable time relevant thing that you could spend time reading. I was talking to my kids about that the other day, because it's true. That never goes out of style. You know, it's always going to be quote, unquote relevant.

That issue of hurry, though, I think is directly related to why you're so creative. Right? So I think you craft better analogies than anyone I've ever read or heard preach. Your analogies are spot on. I'm thinking about the one specifically you mentioned recently about how your son's a big Star wars fan. You're not, but you go see the movies with him, and he has such a greater appreciation for it because he knows the whole story and you only know a portion of it, and relating that to our approach to Scripture. But I just sit back sometimes, I'm like, oh, man, how do you cultivate analogous thinking like that? And I think it's this genius of not being hurried to finish the product. Right. If the manuscript is done Thursday, you got plenty of time and bandwidth to make those creative connections. Like, I find that with my own writing, right? Like, if I'm in a hurry, it's not gonna be creative.

Right.

I may be able to communicate the idea well, but it's not gonna have those analogies that like, really drive home the point. You've been practicing your craft for a long time, teaching God's Word for a long time. Almost a decade. You could argue more than that. What are you doing right now to get better? How do you ensure you don't plateau? Like, what are you doing to put more weight on the bar? As a teacher of the Word, I.

Just read a lot. I'm very particular about what I read as well. There are a few authors that I will gravitate to. I just finished. During this time of social distancing, I read the Gospel According to Paul by John MacArthur. I've read the Gospel According to God, which is based on Isaiah 52, 53 by John MacArthur. I am rereading Knowing God by J.I. packer. And then this other book I started by a guy named Rayner called Master of one. But I've really enjoyed that as well, whoever that guy is.

Yeah. MacArthur Packer and Jordan Raynor. Yeah.

So I read a lot.

Two things I want to make sure our audience hears about your reading habits, because I think there's a ton of wisdom here. And these are two things I do. Number one, when you find somebody you love, like MacArthur, you go all in and just consume everything.

I'm just super careful. And even in my role, people will regularly say, hey, will you read this and let me know what you think? Or have you. I'm very careful because our mind, we have to be very careful what we put in our minds, and it's hard to get things out of our minds once they get into our minds. And so I'm super careful about what I read.

I think about that with my writing. Right. I have not gone to seminary yet. I'm not saying I never will, but I'm preaching the word. And so I'm really careful to quote extensively people who have credibility on these topics. So I'm always quoting Piper and Keller and N.T. wright and all these guys. Jen Wilkin. Right. By the way, here's the other thing I like about your reading habits. You stay focused on your medium. So I feel guilty sometimes that I don't read fiction because I'm like, oh, man. Like, I feel like I should really love fiction, but it's like, I write nonfiction books.

Right.

That's what I write. That's what I do. So that's pretty much all I read. And I was reading recently. I didn't realize this until I was rereading a biography on C.S. lewis, one of my great heroes. He did the same thing. So he refused to read the newspaper.

Right.

Which I don't consume anymore either. It's like, oh, no, there is some brilliance there.

Right.

Know your lane and just go all in on that meme.

It's.

Frankly, it's why I don't. This gets out a little hypocritical, but it's why I don't listen to podcasts. Like, it's just. It's not my primary medium. Like, I see my primary medium as books. Hey, so you mentioned Master of One. You're very kind to do that. I actually want to go back to a conversation we had at church recently about this. You were talking about the frustrations of a pastor, that people demand you to be masterful at everything, and it's just not possible.

Right, right.

Can you talk about that and how the book kind of influenced your thinking on this topic?

My Wife would tell you. I mean, we have a lot of conversations about this. I tend to not be a very. I'm not trying to be false humility or whatever. I really do not think very highly of myself. I do not see myself as being very good at things. And so for me, confidence, what God has called me to do, a God confidence is where I really lean on. Look, to be truthful, I feel like this is what God has called me to do. It 100% is not what I would have chosen to do. I was going in a totally different direction with my life. And clear as day, God put it on my heart that there was one thing that I could do. And so I think reading your book, I think there's a self awareness that I'm growing in of just saying, Chris, it's okay to not be good at something. God has equipped other people in the body to be good at those things. You be the best version of Chris Basham that you can be. God doesn't necessarily need another David Platt or John MacArthur or John Piper, because if you could get in their minds, they're probably battling with some things even in their own. And I remember a while back I heard a quote that said. It spoke to me anyway. It said, you may not be where you want to be, but it doesn't mean that where you are is a bad place. And life is this journey. And God is taking me ultimately to glorification. But there are certain places that I have to. It's like anything. If I was headed to Savannah, Georgia, there are certain cities between Tampa and Savannah that I have to go through. And that doesn't mean I'm in a bad spot. It just means I'm on my way to Savannah and I have to go to those places. And so I think for me, your book is one of the things that's helping me to just say, Chris, it's okay that you're not administratively gifted. It's okay that you're not. This, we have a group of elders at Odessa are really helping with that as well. And we're looking for some positions to help buttress that. It's humbling because I think, unfortunately it's pride and a lot of other junk. But my main lane is to preach and teach the Word. And those other things are good things, but they can become the enemy of the best thing and not allow me to spend ample time in the Word.

Yeah, that's really wise. Hey, we talked about your weekly routine for preparing a sermon. I'm curious what your daily routine looks like, so from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, what does a typical day in the life of Chris basham look like?

6, 6, 15. I get up and it's kind of like a fire drill. Every morning at our house, we have two children that are very dissimilar. And so one of them takes a little more effort to get going than the other. And so I have the privilege and my job allows it. My schedule, I take both of our kids. We live out of county, so we have to take our kids to school. We don't get the bus or anything like that. But I'm in the office by 8 o', clock, so it's probably about a 45, 50 minute deal in the morning travel time getting my kids to both their schools. One's in elementary, one's in high school. And then so I'm at the office by 8 and I'll touch base with my secretary depending on the day. On Monday. Hey, how was giving on Monday? How did things go this weekend or anything from the weekend that I need to deal with and then from there, it involves studying, it involves a lot of phone calls. It can involve reconciling people, reconciling situations, it can involve counseling. But I will set aside segments. I block off times where I study people kid and say, it sounds like we pay you to study the Word, and in large part you do. And I think I would be derelict if I didn't study.

As the chief shepherd and chief teacher, in this stage of the church's life, you have to be responsive to people, but you also have to be able to do deep, focused work. So what I'm hearing you say is you batch those things you say, okay, from this time to this time, I'm studying the Word, period, my phone is put away, whatever, and I'm focused. And then other times of the day, you're more free form and responding to texts and phone calls, et cetera. Is that right?

Yeah, it's probably not that rigid as you or others may be. Just because I am a shepherd, I am mindful and I think about this all the time, that a lot of times in the Gospels you see Jesus being interrupted, if you will. And so I believe, I hope I am, I hope the members at Odessa would say that I will tend to always answer my phone. No matter what I'm doing. I will tend. Unless it's dinner with my family. I'm not very good oftentimes at balancing that. And so my daughter, she's 11, she gave me a Reality check through a letter a while back that just she felt like I was shortchanging her and my family. And that was humbling. And it was not a bad thing. It was just that we were on a bike ride and I took a phone call and that phone call lasted the whole bike ride. And she felt like I robbed her of that and I did and I repented of that to her. And so it is hard, Jordan, to draw definitive lines regarding that as a shepherd. And I will say that probably the best I am at it is on Thursdays because that's when I write the man manuscript. I don't schedule any meetings, I don't schedule any lunches. I'm a people person, I feel like. And I probably on an unhealthy way, have a people pleasing mentality. And so I don't want to overstate that. I probably fail at that in some regards as far as being as focused as I could. But I think God has wired me in a way that I can get focused back on the word quickly because I love it so much and I really am eager and so I can focus back. It's not something that's a burden or I have to do. And so when I am interrupted, my mind is constantly. I got to get back to the word. And so it's not hard to refocus because, I mean, that's a gift. And I think God has wired me that way and so I need to be available.

I think the lesson there for people is there are going to be times. So for you it's Thursdays. Right. Where you are rigid about your schedule. You have to protect that time. Right?

Right.

But there are also seasons where interruption should be welcomed and we should be praying that the Holy Spirit would interrupt what we're doing to do whatever work he needs us to do.

Yeah, I think I would fail as a shepherd if I said, hey, I know what Romans 12 says. But yet I wasn't there to meet any of the needs of my flock, so to speak, that I was a. They're not my flock. I'm an under shepherd on behalf of the Lord. But I think that's one of the beauties of a smaller church. It's kind of a double edged sword is people have access to me and they have my cell number. And so hopefully I try to shepherd that. And I think wisdom comes into play. I think hopefully there is a humility on both parties, on my part and other people's part to know that, look, if I don't answer your call, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just involved in something else. And I think I do a pretty decent job of being available to the flock.

Yeah. So Kara and I and our kids have been members of the church at Odessa for I think about five years now. And one of the reasons why we joined is because I was convinced through some relatively minor things that you said and things in the church, that you have a solid perspective on the biblical narrative for work and the eternal significance of work and the fact that every Christian is a quote unquote, full time missionary.

Certainly.

Can you talk about why this topic is important to you?

Yeah, I think just through studying the Word and just in my own life and others, I think first of all, the world has done a good job and maybe even in Christendom to think that work is a bad thing. Work was created before sin. Sin simply made our work harder. Right. You go back to Genesis 2. Adam was created and put in the garden to cultivate and keep the garden. If you break those words down in their original form, it really means to worship and serve. So the way that Adam worshiped and served God was through worship. You look at Genesis 1:26. We were created to be representatives of God. We were to go out and represent God through everything we do. I think we just have an insufficient view of the Gospel. I think for generations, if I can say this carefully and sensitively, I don't mean it ill will. I think we've shared an insufficient gospel. Pray a prayer, walk an aisle, put this card in your back pocket. It's like a get out of jail free card and monopoly. And then go, just live life the way you've been living it. And the gospel is a death to the old self and life to this new self. But it's in the Gospel. God is recreating what he originally created before sin marred it. And he is recreating anyone who's in Christ. Corinthians 5 says you're a new creation. Colossians talks about put on the new self. Ephesians talks about that God has gifted and skilled us and created us and is recreating us in order to accurately reflect Him. And I think that goes from the least significant thing you'll ever do to the most significant. We tend to be a people who focus a lot on public things and we negate the private things. And I think the problem with that is the private things are what lead to the public things. You know, Jesus, he confronted the Pharisees on. They emphasized the public things but neglected the private. And so I think we, as believers, part of the gospel, we do not live in light of eternity, and part of that includes our work. Our eschatology, if you will, has moral implications even on the smallest details of our lives. I believe that.

So First Corinthians 15, right, right. Maybe the longest exposition on Christ's resurrection and our future bodily resurrection. And so he spends 57 verses talking about this and our future hope of resurrection. And at the end, you would expect him to say, okay, well, in light of that, what you do today doesn't matter.

Right.

You have this eternal hope. But he says in verse 58, therefore always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. Do you think Paul's referring here to the vocational work we do each day as entrepreneurs, as nurses, doctors, lawyers, whatever?

What I was getting at is the gospel changes and brings new life to every single area of our life. Jordan I think it's everything. I mean, I think about First Peter 4, where he talks about. I think it's round about verse seven, the end of things are near, therefore sound judgment and love one another. And I think it's everything. Jordan. I think that the Gospel brings redemption to everything and significance. You know, you look at Ephesians 5, where it talks about be filled with the Spirit and then it goes in and talking about marriage and children and work. Work is included in that passage. You go to Colossians 3, work is included again in evidence of the word of God richly dwelling in you all throughout Scripture. Do all things to the glory of the Lord. What does all things mean? It means all things from eating and drinking to if you were the president of the United States, you know, from the most private thing you do to the most public. I think it involves everything, Jordan. I think every aspect of our life has gospel implications.

Yeah. Amen. I was talking to someone yesterday who's also trained theologically with seminary, and he was talking about how Jesus didn't talk that much about quote, unquote, being saved.

Right.

He talked a lot about the kingdom. Correct, Right. And his coming kingdom. And we do not talk about this enough in the Capital C Church. We talk a lot about it in our lower C church at the Church of Odessa. But, you know, we are promised a new earth, right, where Jesus will reign forever. And we are told to live in line with those principles. I love N.T. wright. In his book Surprised by Hope, he said the work, and here he's talking about our vocational work in the context of this passage, says the work we do in Christ and by the Spirit in the present is not wasted. It will last all the way into God's new world. In fact, it will be enhanced there, end quote. And he goes on to say, basically, all right, this is what I see as the theological truth. Now, I have no idea what precisely that means in practice.

Right.

And he says we got to look to scripture for clues. And I'm curious to get your take on this. Is nt Wright going too far? And if he's not, what clues do you see in Scripture regarding how the work we do today might last into eternity, into the new Jerusalem and the new earth?

I think he's very wise there in not drilling down to specifics because you might think about a doctor. Well, what would a doctor we would have perfect bodies and that. But yet I think about all throughout Scripture, Jordan, whether it's 1st Corinthians 3, whether it's Colossians 4, be careful how you walk. Ephesians 5 says that I think you look for instance 1 Corinthians 3. It talks about eternal rewards based on how we work and steward today. I think when a pastor preaches sound solid doctrine, he's affecting eternity. When a teacher teaches the word consistently, they're doing that. When a person uses whatever gift they have been given by God and they use that to the glory of God, I think that's kingdom minded. I think when we submit everything in our life, from the least to the greatest to the glory of God, I think you're impacting eternity. You're being salt, you're being light. And we just look in Philippians 2 it says therefore do all things without grumbling and complaining. Well, what's the context? Jesus, the gospel and the fact that Jesus was glorified through humiliation. The humiliation came before the glorification. I think you also see clues to it. Jordan the idea of rewards in the sense of passages that speak to second Timothy two come to mind that talks about if anyone competes as an athlete, he will not be crowned unless he competes according to the rules. First Corinthians 9 Interestingly enough, with regards to the bema seat judgment, it talks about all the runners in a stadium compete, but only one wins the prize run with self discipline, self control and even that. The idea there that Paul talks about is that believers are in a sense competitors in a spiritual contest. And the victorious Greek athletes, they would appear before the bema to receive a perishable award. And yet Paul is saying, why would you not run harder to receive an imperishable Reward, I think it's hard to say exactly what it is, but the Bible clearly holds out rewards and greater rewards for stewarding your life as a believer. Well, and how you run matters. You think about an athlete, everything that an athlete does, you think about a track athlete, every step that athlete makes matters. It could be the difference between a gold and a silver medal. And that's the illustration that Paul uses. And so whatever he means there, I think he means run in such a way that you get everything that's waiting for you in eternity. It seems in scripture that there will be varying degrees of reward for believers. It's not just getting to heaven that's awesome. It seems clear in scripture there are varying degrees of reward.

Well, I mean, this is the parable of the talents. Sure, right, sure. I wrote about this in Master of One. You know, when the workers did their work with excellence, when they produced a return, a return talents and the resources that they were given, they were invited to share the master's happ.

Happiness. Right, right.

And that's how we find everyone's looking for joy in work. The way we find joy and work is by serving. Well, by serving our master well, primarily, but also by serving neighbor well. That is a way of serving our Lord well. Then we're invited. Making them happy brings us that ultimate satisfaction and joy of vocation because the master graciously invites us to share in his happiness.

Right. I've noticed this. This just me, I've noticed. And this is silly maybe, but the individual who picks up my garbage, the machine can pick up and put down my garbage can in a way that it looks like he's doing it with care and he takes his job seriously. Or does he just sling it? I've come out before where it's laying down and it's beaten up versus when it's sitting. And that may be a silly example, but this is an individual who takes care in his work versus an individual that may be in a rush and may not be taking care of his work. Forgive the example of the person picking up your garbage, but to me, even something as simple as that of how you place back the can, you know.

I don't think it's belittling at all. I think it's edifying.

I think it's.

Even their job is part of a return to the restoration of order and beauty of all things. That's what's ultimately coming in the kingdom. And that garbage man is serving as a signpost to that ultimate redemption of all things.

I'm not at all belittling that job. When I choose that job, it's just I think the homeowner, at least for me, I can't be the only one, notices. I like to recognize people who do their job well, that are not just looking to get a paycheck, but that really want to do their job well to the glory of God and the fact that we are believers. Colossians 3:16 says, do your work heartily as unto the Lord. Ephesians 5 talks about, don't do it as eye pleasers or men pleasers. Do it as if God were the one you are serving, because really he is the one we're serving. How would you put that garbage can down? This is silly. But if that was Jesus's residence.

Yeah.

How would you do it? How would you preach if he was physically sitting there or if you were doing his taxes or. I think we have to have that mindset. We are from the least thing we do. Whether you eat, drink, or whatever you do, do it to the Lord's glory. He has given you talents. Use them to his glory.

Amen. Three quick questions I love to wrap up every conversation with. I think I already know your answer to this one, but which books do you recommend or give away the most frequently to others? I'm assuming Desiring God is one of them.

That's one. The other right now is Knowing God by J.I. packer. I really, really love that book. The other one that I think is really good is Countercultural by David Platt was a really good read. Just the uniqueness of Christianity. But the other one that by Piper that I would recommend is don't waste your life. It's an easier read than Desiring God or the justification of God that he wrote. But I would argue don't waste your life. Just really giving you that gospel centered mindset and master of one mindset that we've been talking about.

Yeah, that was terrific. It was the first Piper book I read. I think I was in high school, middle school, something like that is a great read. Who would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences the work they're doing in the world every day?

Interesting question. I mean, obviously you did Keller last week. I'd love to hear glean wisdom from a John Piper or a David Platt. I'm thinking about believers who are on the front lines here. Forgive the it's kind of personal, but there are other pastors in my realm that I'd love to glean wisdom from. I think if I was in another realm, I would probably Be more mindful of believers in that realm that I could glean from. I think for me, those would be a couple that I would love to hear from.

We're working on both of them. Do you have somebody who's not a pastor that comes to mind? Maybe somebody in our congregation that you're just like, man, they're really good at what they do. I'd love to hear them talk about how the gospel shapes their work.

Yeah. I'll tell you who's exceptional at what he does is John Cordova. He's director of acquisitions for an organization called Reliant. They purchase self storage units. He is brilliant from a mathematical, from a spreadsheet, how he analyzes. He is a good friend of mine and I've been able to see him work. And he is exceptional at what he does. I'll tell you another individual, Joel Ray, in our church. You had mentioned people in our church. He is a part of a firm and they plan public transportation. He is exceptional at what he does.

Both of those guys would be amazing.

They would be as guys that I know personally. There's a gentleman I know from another realm. There's some believers, Jim Smith, who's a cardiologist here in Tampa.

I love Jim Smith, one of my favorite people.

Yeah, he's a great solid believer that I think would be phenomenal. John Campbell, he's a former attorney, he's retired. But guys like that, that just had long careers and were exceptional at what they did and yet were believers. And so they navigated that realm with faith and in faith.

I love that. I love that.

All right.

You're talking to an audience of Christ followers who want to connect the Gospel to their work and want to do excellent work in response to the Gospel. What one piece of advice do you want to leave them with?

Colossians 3:16. Let the word of God richly dwell within you. I don't think that an intense love for our Savior, for our God can be falsely replicated some other way. We naturally exalt in what we love. And so if through the Word, if that is richly dwelling in us, read the Bible, pray the Bible, Read the Bible, pray the Bible. It sounds simple. And I just. You can't overcome and you can't reproduce in your own flesh again what a spirit controlled, spirit filled believer will do. And that spirit filled is through the Word of God richly dwelling in you. I think about psalms in Psalms 1:19, he delighted in the statutes. David, I think about, why did he go after Goliath? It wasn't what we make it out to be. David was defending the name of his Lord, and he just basically said, goliath, you're not going to talk about my God that way. And whether I live or die, you think about Daniel and Shadrach and Meshach and Abednego. Look, whether or not our God delivers us or not, we're not bowing down. What motivated that was an intense love, a real intense love for their God. And I just think that that cannot be manufactured any other false way other than we've got to have the word richly dwelling in us.

Amen. Chris, I want to commend you for just being an exceptional teacher, God's word. Thank you for caring about master of your craft, and thank you for your celebration of the goodness of work. If someone were to ask me who has most influenced my understanding of the gospel, I'd only give them two names. You and Tim Keller.

Oh, wow.

That's it.

I'll take that company. I'll take that company. I appreciate that.

So, hey, if you guys want more Chris Basham in your life, you can find his sermons on itunes or@churchdesa.org Chris, thanks again for doing this.

My pleasure, Jordan. Thank you.

Well, there you have it, guys. One of my favorite people, Chris Basham, phenomenal teacher. The word. Seriously. If you guys want more Chris, make sure you check out some of his sermons that we mentioned there in the episode. Really, really, really grateful to Chris that Chris doesn't do this. He doesn't do podcasts. He is most comfortable at a pulpit rather than a podcast mic. So thank you guys so much for tuning in in to hear my pastor's heart. I'll see you next week.