Chris Hunt (National Account Manager at Clorox)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, Right. I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because, listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, et cetera, et cetera, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work. But in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9 by filling out that form. You'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious Professionals, but who work as politicians, farmers, and air traffic controllers. That's the question we explore every week. And today, I'm posing it to Chris Hunt. He's an executive at Clorox with an MBA from Cornell. Chris and I recently sat down to discuss what Jesus might say to the conventional wisdom that you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. We talked about the value of interfaith employee resource groups at large companies where Christians frequently interact with Muslims, et cetera, et cetera. And then we talked about how Chris was able to stop chasing promotions, to stop climbing the corporate ladder, and trade that life for a quiet life. Trust me, you're not going to want to miss this episode with my new friend, Chris Hunt. Chris Hunt, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Hello. Hey.

Long time listener, first time caller. Oh, we should state this to appease the lawyers. I forget you work at a large company. All right, so anytime we got a guess at a big brand like Clorox, I gotta say, Chris, you're speaking for yourself here, not for your employer. Correct.

These views are entirely my own. And not only that, any unintended heresies of my own as well. I'm no theologian.

Good. We got that. We got that out of the way. Hey, you've been listening to the show for a long time. Any standout episodes in your mind that you particularly loved?

I actually went back and reviewed. There were a few that came to mind. The first, and probably my favorite, was the interview with Kevin Finch from Big Table. Yes.

Come on now. I loved that episode.

It was incredible. For a couple of reasons, which I may elaborate on later, but one is I'm a huge Eugene Peterson fan. So the fact that he was his nephew, that was super cool. The other one was Ann Ber from Auntie Anne's. That story was unbelievably powerful. And working for Clorox, I. I just loved Janitor Josh. The professional cleaning industry is near and dear to my heart. I love it.

You better say that at Clorox. Hey, speaking of Clorox. All right, we all get the. Clorox makes bleach. You guys make more than bleach, right? For those who don't know, give us the 32nd overview of this Clorox brand.

Yeah, Clorox is an incredible company that makes brands you probably had no idea were part of the Clorox umbrella. So I fell in love. The reason I eat vegetables today is because of Hidden Valley Ranch, which is a Clorox brand.

Really?

Yeah. And once you. You. You make it with the dry packet and buttermilk, it will change your life. It is truly a spiritual experience. You'll never go back.

Glory the nations glory.

Oh, my goodness. Clorox also owns the Kingsford charcoal business. And then my personal favorite Clorox product is Burt's Bees lip balm.

Really? Clorox brand, huh?

Yep, yep. We acquired Burt's bees back around 2008. They're headquartered out of Durham, but it's a hit. Anytime I go to trade shows and I want to engage with other sales reps or customers, I bring lip balms to hand out.

Okay. As somebody who's spent a decent amount of time in trade shows in my life, I've always longed for some vendor to be smart enough to have chapstick at their booth. I go to these icon. Like, I remember I was at this conference in Montreal once. I'm like, what are you doing handing out sunglasses? Like, where is the chapstick for us.

Floridians, it's freezing outside, and your lips are all. Yeah, it's no fun.

Exactly. You got to figure it out. Chris Hunt.

All right.

Hey, man. Tell us a little bit about your role within Clorox.

I am a national account manager within Clorox's B2B business. So Clorox professional, think of bringing Clorox products to anywhere outside the home. So I manage two corporate accounts worth, give or take, just under $30 million in annual sales, and the consumer packaged goods company like. Like in the CPG space, sales means different things to different peoples across different industries. So in my role, like, I find it to be helpful to distinguish between sales as hunting and sales as farming. And in my industry, I'd say, give or take, 98% of sales activities are more farming versus hunting. Now, on the professional side, the one nuance, the difference between what I do and what my colleagues do who call on Walmart and Target, is that not only do I work at the top within a corporate account, and my goal is to penetrate that organization and develop relationships up and down within that org, but my customers have sales teams. So I'm in a true channel sales dynamic where not only do I influence in terms of the products that my accounts buy, but in terms of how their sellers sell my product. So it's really fun. And I found, believe it or not, an entrepreneurial niche within this huge Fortune 500 company, because for my main key account, I've got 2,000 sales reps. I'll never get to know all of them, but to the extent that I can identify those true advocates and develop those relationships and be responsive and support them who sell my product on my behalf and to all the schools and hospitals and apartment complexes out there, then I'll be successful. I love it.

All right, I get it. I get what you do. And dude, I was reading your resume ahead of time. Your resume just oozes with pedigree, man. College athlete, officer in the Coast Guard, graduate with an MBA from Ivy League Cornell. Clearly you're an ambitious guy. And in your pre interview we did last year, you told me that you came out of grad school, quote, guns blazing, ready to climb the proverbial corporate ladder. When you look back, I don't know how many years that is. A decade, whatever. When you look back on that version of Chris Hunt, what was the work beneath your work, propelling your ambition? Why were you working so hard coming out guns blazing?

Well, first, a word of context. And I find it's always helpful to identify where you are in time and space. I'm a proud native Texan, so I grew up playing Friday Night Lights. High school football was life for for me. I'm currently 38 going on 39 this year. So join me too. We're the 86 vintage.

Come on.

Which is the best vintage? And I've got five kids. I'm married with five kids. I live in northwest Arkansas, currently on a little hobby farm. But my life wasn't always this way. And so I just. I'm an enneagram3. So I've always had this strong bent toward achievement, even when I didn't necessarily recognize it without going too deep into my self psychoanalysis. My dad left when I was little, so I was raised by a single mom and my grandma. And so I think there was always this drive to achieve, to find significance, to be worthy of attention, to prove to myself and others that I wasn't a bum. And that drive propelled me all the way through high school into college athletics at the Division 3 level. I was an all American. I had great success in track and field and college football. I did five years active duty in the US Coast Guard. Had an incredible experience there. And then I came out and went to the best school I could get into, which was Cornell. And I did two master's degrees. And then upon graduation, I did the only thing I could think of, which was to go the best blue chip Fortune 500 company I could get into. And Clorox did not disappoint. To be totally honest, it was and is a fantastic place to develop a classically trained brand Marketing background. And so I came into marketing out of business school and intended, by all accounts, with a bit of a chip on my shoulder to come in and succeed.

To prove that you're not a bum.

Exactly.

By the way, I think you're quoting Keller there.

I am.

I think that's an old, deep Keller cut. I know all the deep Keller cuts.

It's a Keller quote. I think of Madonna in her work, beneath the work. Right. She had to continue to prove. And so you'll. You'll sense. I've already alluded to two of the main influences of my life, Tim Keller and Eugene Peterson. But, yeah, that desire, that drive is. Is really something.

So that was the desire. You have this chip on your shoulder. You got something to prove. I have no idea what that's like. You're on an island here, man. No clue.

Just kidding.

This is the story of my life. But then you told. You told me before that quote. I believe the gospel plays a moderating influence on my desire to climb that corporate ladder. As a matter of fact, it caused me to get off that ladder. End quote. What's the story there? So you just told us who Chris Hunt was, why you were working so hard. What did God do in your heart to get you off that proverbial ladder? Crazy, crazy hamster wheel.

The reality was that my wife had. While at the same time that I was nurturing this vision for achievement and success, I was following this dream of prestige and status and recognition. And again, I mean, this is all couched in, like, truly Christianized language, how I'm stewarding my gifts and influence for the sake of the kingdom of God. But in reality, I'm like a ball of anxiety just trying to get that promotion to, trying to prove to myself and others that I'm not a bum. My wife had been nurturing over the series of years, and this is the way it's typically played out in our relationship. God speaks to her first, and then it takes a couple years for me to catch on and follow suit. So God had given my wife this beautiful vision for a slow, quiet life, a little piece of land to rest in and to educate our kids at home. And she even went so far as to draw a picture, the sort of vision that the Lord had given her. And it looks almost exactly like where we live right now. And so after two years, let's see, three years in the Bay Area, raising at that time, four kids in 800 square feet with a single bathroom with an hour plus commute, one way to work. I was worn out, she was worn out. And the Lord gave me favor. This is 2019, so pre Covid favor to go remote. I'd started my career on the B2C side at Clorox, so selling to consumers through retail and attritional marketing role. Then moved on to Clorox's B2B business, where I ultimately fell in love on the pro side. And at that point, it happened to be the only really position within the company on the B2B side as a marketer where I was able to live and work remotely. And so all these things came into alignment. I asked for permission, we got the green light. In May 2019, we moved to northwest Arkansas and found a little piece of land to raise our family on. And when I did that, I made the at least implicit decision that, hey, I am deprioritizing my career. I understand the potential consequences associated with this so that I can invest in a future for my family and so I can actually support my wife. And, and she's followed me around and done so much and. And this has been one of the best decisions we've ever made for our family. And to be fair, I haven't been promoted since that time and. And it has nothing to do with the company or anything like that. It was a conscious decision. But I'm. I'm really grateful to be where I'm at. Even though. And I'll admit, man, if I end up on LinkedIn for one thing or another, there could be that little pang of envy that I experienced where my buddies from the Coast Guard from business school, they're now, oh yeah, another one's a partner at Bain or a VP at another CPG company and I'm a lowly account manager, and that's okay.

So this is good, man. And gosh, you and I could quote Keller back and forth to each other, but man, a lot of our listeners can't. I want you to be really explicit here. I want you to be really explicit about how the gospel has freed you to be okay, not climbing that ladder, not competing against your friends on LinkedIn. It's not to say that the envy is all gone, right? Like there is a pang of regret. But what. How is the gospel shape your heart with regards to ambition and needing to prove yourself?

Man, I wish I could say that I got it figured out. And I'm always, me too.

Why do you think I'm asking the question?

But there are triggers. It used to be the place that I lived within. Now I just momentarily get triggered by something and I And I'm aware enough now, thanks to the Holy Spirit, where I can recognize what's going on in my heart and process it with the Lord. But it's been a very long process of understanding my identity in Christ as His beloved. And it's one thing to know it, to articulate it. It's another thing to believe it, to feel it, to externalize it. It is an ontological, real reality that I am the beloved Son of my Father. And to the extent that I grasp that, and I believe it will take all eternity to fully reckon with the implications of that, of that reality. But to the extent I can begin to grasp that, then I'm ultimately better at my job, more useful, more impactful. And here's the irony, Jordan, that as I've, in a very real sense, taken a step back or even off that corporate ladder, I've never had more fun in my work. I've never had more impact. I've never wielded more influence. Despite my relatively junior level within the organization. I've never made more money, and I've never worked less. And that's going to sound strange, but it's ultimately been so much better in every single way since then. It's been a long and hard process, and I still wrestle with it, but I feel God's pleasure.

It's good, man. It's really good. Just before we start recording this morning, I was reading my notes from Will Smith's autobiography, which, say what you will about Will Smith, it's maybe the best memoir I've ever read.

Really?

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. It's extraordinary. And it's really dark, right? Because of the work. You feel the pain of the work. Underneath Will's work, there's this quote. He said quote, to me, love was a performance. So if you weren't clapping, I was failing, end quote. Right? And then he has this friend come to him, and he's specifically talking about trying to win the approval of a particular woman. And Will's friends, I quote, as long as you do things for the approval of a woman, you will never be free. That is a descending hell. I'm like, dang, yes. But that's what so many of us do. That's the work beneath our work of trying to win the approval of our parents, of our peers, of, frankly, faceless people on Instagram and LinkedIn that we don't really care about, when we have already been given, through Christ, the eternal applause of our Heavenly Father, who says that through Christ, we are loved, co heirs adopted Children of God, nothing gets better than that. Talk about the freedom that you've experienced, right? That freedom of self forgetfulness as you continue to dwell on the love of the Father.

I've been spending the last couple of years in the Psalms. It's been the church's songbook throughout the ages. Learning to sing them, chant them, it's just been unbelievably renewing for me. And Psalm 16 is one that comes to mind. It talks about how the. The lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. In other words, that God's boundaries for my life are good. And it says, indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance and as I've been able to be out here. And I fundamentally believe that where you are, that the place that God has you in matters, that we are more than. More than brains on sticks, to quote another contemporary author. And that we are embodied creatures. And so, as I process the reality of life and failure and career and regret with the Lord while hiking in the hills or wandering on our property and being around my animals and my children, and despite the chaos of raising five tiny humans, it's just been like a healing balm for my soul.

It's good, man. It's really good. I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago, because, man, I think this is such a common experience. You're talking about climbing the corporate ladder, Clorox, early on. And you would cloak these ungodly ambitions with really godly language, right? Like, oh, I'm stewarding my talents. Which is why. How do you spot the bs? Like, talk about, like back then. Talk about today, whenever you want. Like, because, listen, I do this. I'm sure I do this even when I'm not cognizant of it. So how do you discern the godly ambition from the ungodly ambition, even when you're using that godly ambition language?

Our Heavenly Father is so eminently patient and kind. He doesn't reveal everything all at once. He doesn't slam open the door and shine a spotlight around and point out all our hidden sins. So it's been a process, one of an unraveling process of years and years. And God's given me my wife to help process this primarily. He's also given me another friend at Clorox who he's from Jersey, so he's got this kind of, like, tough guy, hey, bro, you know, like, listen up kind of attitude. And he doesn't mince his words. And so he asked me those really difficult questions because he struggles with the exact Same thing.

He's a believer.

He is a believer, yes, absolutely. And so we, We've wrestled with our ambitions ourselves. And then I've had mentors, to be honest, one here, Henry, now in the selfless way of Christ, he talks about downward mobility. And I've had to continually keep that at the forefront of my mind because every culture has its own blind spots, right. And as Tim Keller would say, the gospel confronts your every culture in different areas. Right. And so something that we accept as commonplace and good in our culture may be seen as anathema to another culture in a different time and place. And so I think one of our blind spots in the body of Christ today in the west, in white collar work. And again, this is an important distinction. There are different vices. On the blue collar side, perhaps, perhaps. But in the white collar world, man, it's, it's selfish ambition. It's greed. Not even so much greed for money as it may be for title or prestige or affirmation. And so I, I think that there's perhaps a, a bit of a pendulum or a spectrum of sorts. And I, I've tended to over index on the side of maybe being a little too cautious, a little too aware of my own ambition, trying to play down the, the desire to get promoted. Because I know in my heart it's an idol factory. And it's just one thing after the other pursuit of something other than God. I'm always looking for a nail to hang my hat on. I feel like the people of Israel when they asked for a king because being known by God's presence wasn't enough. Like I need something else. Right?

Yeah, it's good, man. It's real. So what I hear you saying is to really sift through desires. One, know your idols for you personally, right? Where you're tempted to put something above the love of the Father. And number two, be in community with other believers who know your idols. Right. And who could call you out on those less than God honoring motives. Is that right?

That's completely true. And please don't misunderstand me. I, I fundamentally believe that we need more Christians and positions of leadership across every spectrum of society.

Amen.

Christians in the White House and politics and business and local government and everywhere in between. And I will fully, fundamentally support that. I know that for me, my heart is an idol factory, and I am inherently suspicious not to say that God won't raise me up at one point in time for something else or promote me for this or that, and I'm cool with that. But I want to be in that place where I don't need the next promotion. That's not my desire. That's not the thing I'm pursuing. As opposed to pursuing Christ, come what may, and be cool with that.

Yeah, man. So good. And I'm thinking about James Davison Hunter's terrific book To Change the World. Right. Like we. We need Christians at the center of cultural power in media, in business, in the arts, in politics. Right. But this is the role of the Capital C Church. He doesn't need Chris Hunt specifically. Right. To be that center of power. There are other people who have different idols and don't struggle with using their work to make a name for themselves. And God might place them at that center of cultural power. So it's so good, dude.

But even if they do pursue an idol out of success or prestige or whatever, God uses them in spite of that. That's the beauty of his perfect plan. He redeems all things.

Yes. Amen. So well said, man. We could end the episode right here after that discussion on ambition. That's so rich, at least for me personally. But I do want to touch on a couple of other ways the Gospel's influencing your work. And one has to do very narrowly with your craft as a sales professional. I mean, like it or not, sales professionals have a reputation for being overly confident, some might say arrogant. I've hired a lot of salespeople in my life, if you can't tell. And actually last year I wrote this devotional series on this topic because I do think there's a tension we see throughout Scripture between confidence and humility. Right. There's this call to confidence. I'm thinking of second Timothy 1:7, which says the Spirit God gave us did not make us timid, but gives us power. Right. So you hear the confidence, but you can also hear the flip side of this double sided wisdom, this call to humility, all throughout scripture, Ephesians 4:2, Be completely humble and gentle. And I think the only way we hold that tension well is to recognize, as Paul says in 2nd Corinthians 3, that our competence comes from God. And so our confidence is not rooted in self, but rooted in Him. So here's my question for you, Chris. What does it look like practically for you to model that. For you to model both confidence and humility as you do your work at Clorox?

Something very practically that I'm trying to lean into more and more is even if I have an answer where a very strong point of view, I still have cross functional partners that I work with. I'm the quarterback in this sense. I manage my accounts. We are customer centric within my business unit. And I think that is absolutely fantastic. I love this approach, but I still have colleagues who may not be responsible for making the decisions that I do. But I find that by asking them questions, trying to shut up and listen more, more that the end product is so much richer. There's just some multiplicative effect that happens when we leverage other people's strengths and just invite them to the table. And in doing so, I acknowledge my humility. I really am personally a lifelong learner. I love to learn. I have more questions than I do answers. And I'm happy to admit that I don't mind. I'm fairly an open book even with my customers. And I think that my primary goal, as much as I do have a number to hit. But my primary goal with my accounts is to build trust. And trust comes oftentimes by saying, I don't know, I'll get back to you, or let's figure this out together or whatever. But that position of humility is not in conflict with this confidence because I come in with a strong point of view. But I'm borrowing from Stephen Covey here. I seek first to understand and then be understood.

Yeah, it's good. The humility to not be the first one to speak up. The humility to admit I do not know, but I will serve you with excellence and going and finding the answer. Hey, you already mentioned some form of Christian community within Clorox. Your buddy who's a believer, who's helping you kind of discern these idols. I want to talk about community more broadly though. I'm a huge fan. As you know, I've actually spoken at the Clorox ERG before. I'm a big fan of these employee resource groups. For those who don't know, can you give us a 30 second overview of what the heck an ERG is in general?

Yeah, ERG Employee Resource Group. They're designed around certain affinities, maybe along racial or ethnic lines, or if you're a parent, there's a parent's erg. There's ergs for many other venues. The ERG that I'm a co lead for is the Clorox Interfaith Group. And so we exist as a sort of umbrella organization under which individual expressions of specific faiths can find their place. And, and so we provide support, corporate linkage and connectivity with other Clorox ergs.

Okay, so we've had a few guests on the show before I'm thinking about Mimi Chan at Amazon. The other names are escaping me right now, but Mimi leads a Christian specific erg. It's. I think it's called Christians at Amazon. You guys have chosen have an interfaith erg at Clorox. Talk about the benefits of an interfaith as opposed to a specifically Christian erg.

We did go back and forth on this for quite a while at the time that we developed this erg. And I'm actually more of a fan of the interfaith approach. But let me make a few disclaimers off the bat. One is just a word of context. I'm a. I'm an evangelical charismatic orthodox Christian in that sense. And so when I hear interfaith, immediately the hairs on the back of my neck start to stand up. Because the key tension, I think, for Christians when it comes to these types of things, especially evangelicals that maybe come from a more fundamental background, is I don't want to compromise my faith. I don't want to be seen as giving in or in any way bringing dishonor to the name of my Lord and the thing. So let me first address that aspect of it from an evangelical Christian perspective. The reason why the Clorox interfaith group works for us is because we made a very distinct decision, and we talk about it consistently, that when we meet together as a Clorox interfaith group, we do not pray together, we don't worship together, and we do not in any way say that all faiths are equal. We don't seek to minimize the different, closely held, deeply ingrained faith perspectives of other people. And that's essential. That's the guardrail that makes it possible for us to engage.

By the way, isn't it offensive to other religions to say that all religions are essentially equal?

It should be. Absolutely.

Okay. All right, great. We're on the same page there. All right. Talk about the benefits of interfaith. What. What have you found? Has been surprisingly delightful about that interfaith dynamic.

It gives us access to conversations that we wouldn't be a part of otherwise. It gives us access to corporate influence that we wouldn't have otherwise. It gives us a broader base. And here's the other thing, Jordan, that I think is just super cool. Early on, we. We brought on. One of the members of our leadership team was a woman who was a devout atheist. And I gotta be honest, man, like, her ideas, her passion, her engagement were top notch. She made us all better, and we benefited from her. If this was a Christians Only Erg I would have not had the chance to get to know and work with, with her, nor would we have benefited from her contributions. So that alone is a practical reason why this makes sense. But the other thing, and again, I think this plays into like the broader corporate aspect of this. Having an interfaith approach just, it makes for a more. Makes for a more well rounded broader conversation. We can add perspectives that aren't Christian specific. And I learned a lot from our Muslim colleagues, devotion to prayer or from the Jewish high holy days and so on. And I appreciate that and it gives us. I didn't make this conversation, but last week, for instance, another. The Asians at Clorox, ERG helped lead. And so we do a lot of these intersectional cross ERG events. They wanted to host an event on birth traditions when babies are born within different cultures. And they said, hey, what about a faith perspective? And again, that's something that we can speak to as Christians, hey, the rite of baptism or from other faith traditions. And that's something that we would not have necessarily had access to if we had a faith specific approach.

It's good, man. If we believe that all truth is God's truth, which you and I would assent to. Right. Then we need not fear those conversations. Right. We can engage in those conversations, discern what is true, discern what is false. Right. And seek wisdom wherever we can find it through God's common grace. I'm curious how that ERG specifically, or maybe even more broadly, just the community you have with other believers within Clorox has helped you at a really practical level, Chris, apply the gospel to the work that you're doing at Clorox? Maybe. Is there a story in particular that you can think of like, oh, man, this is clearly how Jersey guy or my ERG helped me apply my faith to my work.

I think about it from a couple levels, Jordan. I. And here's the beauty of influence. I think we often don't realize that the higher up you go on a corporate ladder, sometimes the less actual influence you have within an organization. And I know it sounds counterintuitive, but because I'm at this mid level, I can exercise influence. You know, I don't have a whole team beneath me, that I don't have some of the same baggage. I can say things that our CEO can't and engage in conversations at levels that she can't. And that's really cool. So for instance, when I think about Christian witness at Clorox and what that looks like, there's the one on one level, where I've got a buddy who's going through a super hard time right now, he's going through a real dark night of the soul, dealing with some very, very difficult workplace dynamics. And I've got the time and opportunity to sit with him through this and to work through these things, and I think that's awesome. And believe it or not, that has come up quite a lot. It often feels fewer and farther in between, mainly because I'm a remote employee. And so the distance dynamic is something that I've wrestled with a lot over the years. But nonetheless, these opportunities arise. So there's that one on one dynamic. But then at the higher level, when I think about influence and. And the leaven within the lump. As a Christian within this organization, this is where the ERG thing comes into play. And I look at the interfaith ERG as a Trojan horse. Not in a subversive sense, but in a good sense. Not in one where I'm trying to undermine, like, I really do seek the peace and prosperity of Clorox, but as a Trojan horse. It gives us access to conversations that we want to be a part of, otherwise. One example is we were going through a series of layoffs and some difficult corporate challenges, and we realized that, hey, anxiety is ruling the roost right now. There's a lot of just ambient anxiety going on, and we need to figure out, like, what can we do about that? So here I am, the Christian within this ERG space, and I just had an idea. Have you heard of Steve Kuss? Does that name ring a bell? He wrote a book called Managing Leadership Anxiety. He's an Australian Christian pastor out of Colorado. And so I had heard a podcast interview of his with Ruth Haley Barton. And so in a context of these other ERG leaders, I brought it up and said, hey, this guy does some great work with regard to anxiety. And everyone was like, yeah, I think that could be super relevant. So we collectively, Clorox paid for the first time ever that I can think of an all erg cross erg event to bring in a Christian pastor. This wasn't spiritual language, but he applied these principles of managing anxiety. And it was. We had a couple hundred people attend. Man like my COO attended. The CEO viewed the recordings. We came back for a. For an encore, a separate session. And so that's the kind of influence we can wield if we participate in these conversations and really think about addressing true felt needs. I'm adding value beyond just the instrumental end of sharing the gospel. And we've had conversations like that too. We've had other cross erg events where I've had the opportunity to explicitly share the gospel in the context of a story. And that's the thing I actually really like about inclusion and diversity. I'll be totally candid, Jordan. I think especially conservative Christians sometimes feel like inclusion and diversity can't be a smokescreen for progressive values. I'll just call it out like it is and that there are key irreconcilable tensions, particularly with regards to human sexuality. Nonetheless, I can go into any inclusion and diversity oriented conversation within Clorox at any given time and raise my hand and say, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. He's the primary source of my identity. My, my, my reason for being. And under what other context could I ever go into a corporate environment and say, say that I think it's an absolutely incredible opportunity. If we can figure out how to manage our own anxieties and live and work faithfully within this context, we can find that not only do we have the opportunity to share the gospel and typically in the form of stories and in a conversational format, but also how can we add real value to meet the felt needs of our organizations and our friends at any given time?

Dude, I'm so glad you went there. I wasn't even planning on asking you about that. Yeah, listen, there should be concerns around dei, but there's also great blessings in this movement, right? There are great blessings in this bring your whole self to work movement because it gives me an opportunity to declare my allegiance to King Jesus. Talk more about sharing the gospel in the context of stories. I'm not sure what you mean by that. I would love to hear what you're talking about.

Oh, man. All right, let me be succinct here.

Take your time. Take your time. This is good.

I've got a buddy who I'm being a Coast Guard officer. I'm a veteran. So cross intersectional identities. Right? I'm working within the veterans erg and the interfaith group. And we had this idea of like, hey, we're facing these incredibly tumultuous times within Clorox, which is a very stable company. How do we, how do we navigate this uncertainty? And so my, my buddy who leads the veterans group and I had a conversation. We're like, hey, who better to address. Address how to navigate times of uncertainty than veterans and people of faith? Like veterans in general are the most adaptable people on the planet. You have to be. And then people of faith, we have this external Source of truth that can be a rock in unsure times. And so we shared some stories. We invited folks to share. My colleague from the veterans group shared about his experience in Iraq. I share a story from my time in Haiti on a Coast guard cutter. In January 2010, there was a major earthquake that basically destroyed Port au Prince and most of Haiti. And my ship was the second US Vessel on scene at that time. And we spent the next couple weeks there just providing critical first aid to critically injured Haitians. And the short of it was, it was a terrible, terrible experience, Jordan. And we saw so much death and chaos and destruction. And here's the cool thing, man. The corpsman on my ship was a believer. And at one point, we had ferried a woman. And this is the story that I shared in the context of this cross erg event. But we had ferried a woman over to the ship who was pregnant, like, nine months pregnant. Doc evaluated her, determined there was no heartbeat. Baby was going to be stillborn. But in the midst of all the chaos, you got to move on and help the next person and so on. And so I'm spending most of my time up on the ship, on the bridge, coordinating helicopter operations and overseeing small boats going back and forth. And so my roommate at the time, we'd play football together at the Coast Guard Academy. Big dude. But he was running the flight deck and overseeing small boat operations. And he saw this woman begin to bear down and, like, she was going to deliver a baby. And he's like, oh, no, this is going to be a mess. Unbelievable. And again, everyone knew that she'd been evaluated, that the baby was to be found with no heartbeat. And it would. It would just be really hard. Well, sure enough, this lady ends up giving birth to a healthy baby aboard the flight deck of our Coast Guard cutter. And it was a miracle, man. It was absolutely unbelievable. In the midst of all of this death and chaos, here comes life. And I shared that story not only because it was an incredible experience, but because it represented the Christian. Life is a wonderful metaphor for where we are, that, hey, despite, no matter what happens around you, right, Come what may, at the after death comes life. That is the hope of the gospel. That is the resurrection. And so the opportunity to share that on a corporate stage to an audience that included my CEO was just an incredible opportunity.

Dude, that's so, so, so, so good. Right? And you had that opportunity because, one, you weren't walking people through the romance road. You were just sharing a story. And nobody can argue with your story. This is your personal story number two, I would imagine that you're on the stage because you're excellent at your craft, right? You got credibility. You've won the respect of outsiders. But three, because you were part of the crg, right? I think a lot of times when we've talked about these employee resource groups on this podcast, it's been a lot about, all right, what can we as believers get out of it so that we can apply the gospel to our work? But it's no, no. Ergs are a vehicle for blessing the business. They are a vehicle for outside the erg, speaking into broader conversations within these companies and sharing the hope we have in Christ. Amen.

Oh, that's exactly right.

So good man. Hey, I've said this before in this podcast, but I'll say it again. If you work in a large company like Clorox, I would highly recommend you joining or starting a Christian or interfaith erg. But listen, I know most of you do not work in large companies like that with the rgs. You don't work for huge brands like Clorox. So if that's you, listen, this is why I created the Mere Christians community, right? The doors have been closed for, I think, nine months, but we're actually opening up the doors for the first time March 3rd through the 7th. So check that out@jordanraynor.com if you're interested. Chris, as you know, four questions we wrap up every episode with number one, what do you want to be doing on the new Earth? You want to be. You want to be directing traffic for the ships of Tarshish coming into the New Jerusalem, harkening back to your Coast Guard days?

I spent enough time at sea to last me a lifetime, so I'm pretty good there. This is gonna sound like a kind of a ridiculous answer and a pious one. And I don't mean that. But the more I like. Eschatology matters. And so where we think all of life is heading, the purpose of life, all of this stuff really matters. And at the end of all things, you have a chorus, and all of language gets reduced to just a few words, like, worthy is the lamb, holy glory. And so, man, I just. I just want to be in his presence. And I. Again, like, I'm not. I'm not a theologian. So at first I was like, yeah, there's no pastors or priests in the new heavens and new Earth. And maybe that's true, but maybe there will be people who will just get to bask in the glory of God and sing and perhaps lead others in that and continue to teach and expound the mysteries of God. Because I am confident with. We will never arrive at a complete fullness of understanding of God. And so, dude, I. I've tasted and I've seen and there's nothing else. There's nowhere else I'd rather be. There's nothing I'd rather do than just to be in his presence.

It's so good, man. And I've been thinking a lot about Isaiah 65 and long enjoying the work of our hands. The reason why we will long enjoy the work of our hands is not primarily because there will finally be a match between our passions and the work we get to do. It'll primarily be because we are doing it with God, fully, perfectly. There's no break in that relationship whatsoever. That's what makes it enjoyable. And I think when we can reframe it in that context, man, like, it's easier to see that eternity starts now. Eternity is now in session because I'm working with the Lord right, right now. And when I arise from the nap that is death, I'll just be with him more fully. And that's what will make the work glorious, because he is glorious.

There's one, one other thought though, Jordan and I, even now. And I love what I do. I absolutely love sales. I love account management. I love strategy and brand building, all of these things. But I think God calls some people to be his friends and to have no job other than to just be with him and enjoy his presence. Presence. I had a chance to spend a couple days at a monastery in over the new year and dude, I. I so admire that within the Catholic tradition that there are people whose job it is to minister to the Lord day and night. And that's. That's what I want to do, man.

It's good, man. So good, man. I think that's what we'll all be doing. I think it'll just take a lot of different forms. All right, Chris, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which books would we see you bind over and over and over again to give away to friends?

The one that I, Henry now. And I'm probably mispronouncing his last name, but this dude is just rocked.

Nobody knows how to pronounce Henry Nou's last name. That's my number one takeaway from this podcast. 300 episodes in.

Yeah, I agree. The selfless way of Christ, downward mobility and the spiritual life has been so refreshing. He wrote this in the 80s at the the rise of the yuppie movement. And so his response to that, upward mobility. And it's like, hey, hold on, guys. Like, Jesus descended. We should be pursuing downward mobility. It's been really refreshing.

I hate when I hear people, especially in the business space, say, hey, don't forget, you're the average of your five closest friends. So, you know, keep leveling up those friendships and hanging out with more. Jesus was not the average of his five closest friends. Right. He pursued down. He was. He was intentionally trying to lower his average. If he could do that, he couldn't because he's God. But you get my point. All right, I like that. I like that now. And one. That's good, man. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast?

I have a friend named Jonathan Nowlin who is a redemptive business consultant, but has incredible experience in overseas work. And. And I got to say, Jordan, I think every time, he's like a big brother to me. We go to church together, we're in community group, but every single time I talk to him. And it doesn't happen often in other contexts, but with Jonathan, I'm like, oh, I didn't think about that, man. Like, that's quickly. For instance, Jonathan helped me understand that this progressive impulse is actually part of the original mandate, like this desire to expand and steward and grow. That desire is essentially what's at work within our friends on the left, although we have different goals. And so I just. That reconciliation of it, man, I think he's doing some incredible work that's on the forefront of understanding the kingdom of God and how we can manage our spheres of influence within the context of the. The kingdom that's. That's here now and not yet.

I've met Jonathan, and I've got his book man, Junior Metron, and we've never had Jonathan on the podcast. So this is great. I love that you brought Jonathan's name up. All right, Chris. Hey, before we sign off, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians doing a bunch of different things vocationally. What's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to those listeners or maybe something you want to say fresh before we sign off?

The one thing that summarizes all of my thinking that I didn't explicitly make clear is this idea that abiding is the answer to a thousand questions. I heard a preacher say that once. It's always stuck with me to. To abide. And that means that if the Lord's purpose for your life is to be a CEO or a governmental official, Then you pursue that and you do it with excellence and integrity unto the glory of God. And if God's purpose for your life right now is to stay at home with your children and make a loving space for them, or to be content with your relatively low status within a corporation or whatever the case is, there's only freedom in his purpose. There's only freedom in his will and in his purpose presence. And that is the essence of abiding. It is truly the answer to a thousand questions.

So, good man. All right, follow up. What does that look like practically for you beyond daily quiet time routines in the morning? Talk about when you go to work, when you show up in your home office, until the moment you leave. What does abiding look like practically in the workday?

Ah, it looks like Lord established, Lord, bless the work. Bless and establish the work of our hands from the Psalms. But it's a moment by moment dependency. It's a prayer. I mean, Paul wasn't mincing words when he said pray without ceasing. I pray constantly. I'm just like, lord, how do I figure this out? How do I deal with this difficult customer? How do I fix this? What does this look like? And we have a conversation about it. But here's the thing, and this is for me, the biggest challenges I face right now are not work. It's how do I keep from putting on my grumpy pants when I'm at home and my five children are screaming and beating each other. So the real work is being a non anxious presence in my home and establishing a family culture of love. Because if everything is a form of obedience, right then I'm managing not just my work, but my metron like Jonathan talks about, includes my family and my vocation and all of these things. And so right now I'm at this phase where my little humans are growing and I need to figure out how to love them. And it's the most important discipleship opportunity I will ever have. Man. I don't want to abdicate that. I don't want to miss it. And here's the thing. I don't want to even just endure and wait till they're older and they stop beating each other. I want to realize that this is God's sanctifying purpose in my life right now. And he put me here to help steward them and grow them and. And I really appreciate that.

Yeah, man. But abiding is the key to the work we do in our living rooms and in our offices. You. You reminded me of that Spurgeon quote, he said, I rarely pray more than five minutes, but I never go five minutes without praying.

Oh, I love that.

Right? That's abiding throughout the workday. Hey Chris, I want to commend you man, for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others for reminding us that abiding is the goal primarily, not accomplishment, not promotion. It is abiding with the one who has given us the greatest accomplishment any of us will ever achieve. Adopted child of God. Hey man, where's the best place for people to connect with you if they want to learn more about your work? Chris Hunt on LinkedIn, man.

Yeah, but I'm trying not to go on to LinkedIn very often these days.

Don't connect with Chris Hunt anywhere. Leave him alone to the quiet life that God has called him to. I love it.

Exactly right? Yeah, that's a great answer.

Hey man, thanks for hanging with us today.

Thank you, Dan.

I loved that episode. I hope you guys did too. Hey listen, I would love to hear from you about why you listen to the Beer Christians podcast every week. Tell us in a review of the show on Apple or Spotify. We read every single one of these reviews. I read them personal. We read them with our team as an encouragement to my team. So do me a favor, go leave a review of the show wherever you're listening. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form at 5merechristians.com. Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour C.S. lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever, and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5MereChristians calm right now to claim your bonuses.