Chris Perry (Lead Researcher for Master of One)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. Master of One has been in bookstores for a couple of weeks, and, man, I just got to thank you guys for the incredible response to this book. As you guys know, the podcast is essentially a continuation of the book. Like the podcast, the book is filled with stories of Christ followers who are doing masterful work for the glory of God and the good of others. One of the most popular comments I've heard so far on the book is how well researched the book is. We heard this from advanced readers and even from you guys who have already read the book since it's been out on January 21st. So today, I thought you all would like to hear from the masterful researcher who is behind Master of One and largely responsible for the book being in your hands. His name is Cross Chris Perry. He's one of my best friends. Chris is a former pastor. Today he's a freelancer doing a lot of different things as a communication expert for a number of different ministry clients, including YouVersion and me, Jordan Raynor, and company. So in addition to being the lead researcher on Master of One, Chris is also the producer of this podcast. So if you love the show, if you love the book, you have Chris to thank. He's one of the most talented communicators I know. So we sat down and. And we recently talked about how he researched Master of One trying to kind of reverse engineer the research writing process. We talked about how the new Earth, new heavens, and new Earth should shape our work today. And very interestingly, we talked about Chris's routine of a weekly mind dump, which I found very interesting. So, without further ado, here's my conversation with my friend and colleague, Chris Perry. Chris Perry. Welcome, buddy.

How's it going, man? Good to be here.

Yeah. Thanks for being here. Hey, so I'm very excited about this episode. So we're releasing this right after the release of Master of One, and we're already hearing. So we're recording this pre launch. But one of the things I'm hearing most frequently from the launch team is how well researched the book is. Right. Which I can take almost zero credit for. So I thought it'd be fun to do an episode with you, the masterful researcher who's really responsible for this thing. So I want to try to retrace our steps for how we put the book together, because, honestly, this is partially for my own good. Honestly, I don't even remember exactly how we did this.

All a blur.

It's all a blur. So day one, right. Of us working together on this project, that was the meeting we had at Starbucks. Right. Okay. And so I tried to dig up the dock for that kickoff meeting. I couldn't find it. But when I hired you to start researching the book, how well formed were the ideas and the outline of Master of One. What were we starting with?

Well, I think we were starting with just the big idea, you know, this idea of finding our one thing, focusing on our one thing that God has created us to do. And so that first meeting was really just about hashing out the concepts, the theme, the format, how this thing's going to kind of run and what it's going to look like and how we can work together to bring it about.

Yeah. And so I didn't find the doc for the kickoff meeting, but I did find, obviously, I've got the proposal that we use to sell the book to Random House. And I was looking at the original outline for the book, and it wasn't that far off. It's not wild. I mean, there was, like, one extra section that we could. But, like, by and large, the core ideas are the same. Right. So exceptional work glorifies God and loves neighbor self. This theme of, like, passion follows mastery, not the other way around. But what wasn't clear at all is if you read the proposal, you're like, oh, my gosh. We had no idea what the stories were going to be to really illustrate those ideas. Right. So we wound up with, at the end, we have Fred Rogers, we have David Bodiah, the Olympic diver. We had Tony Dungy, Cynthia Marshall, like, lots of these amazing people, almost none of which were in that original proposal. So to me, that's where you really shone.

Right.

Was finding these amazing stories to illustrate these ideas. How did you do that? What did the process look like for finding those stories to illustrate the themes of the book?

Yeah. So one of the things that we did early on was, like, we said, we laid out those themes and those big ideas, and once that was solidified, then we really started to think through, okay, who do we know who would fit into these themes currently? Who do we know who's doing masterful work? Who do we know who has followed not necessarily their passions, but their giftings. Who do we know that's doing excellent things for the glory of God and the good of others? And so started with just kind of some ideas of people who we might already know. You started throwing me some ideas. I started kicking back some more ideas of people and really it kind of started to bud out of the type of people we were looking for. And from that just started hammering in on the research and looking at these people, looking at their stories, looking at who has influenced them, reading books, whether they were written about this person or written by this person particularly, and then finding some really interesting sidetracks, you know, that led us to some other crazy stories, you know, one of which is the guys over at Monday Night Brewing. I remember that came out of a weird story of a guy that I used to follow back in my early hip hop days. And he ended up being a salesperson for Monday Night Brewing. And I was like, that would be a cool story. And lo and behold, it made its way into the book.

That's so funny. Yet I remember. So when I kicked off the project, I did sit down, I was like, okay, I know I have these broad themes. I'm not sure where people fit, but I do have a list of Christ followers who are exceptional at their craft. And so I just made a list and then tried to figure out, okay, where do these people kind of fit? So some interviews I went in, had a bunch of different questions, but I was like, I have no idea where these people are going to fit in the narrative. And then other stories kind of came midway through writing. So I remember Brett Hagler of News Story. Brett's one of my favorite entrepreneurs in the nonprof. Brett reached out to me at a conference. We were at a conference. He's like, hey, I recall the great. Loved it, would love to like hang out. And I heard a story, I was like, oh man, I know there's a gap in chapter nine. Like you would be perfect for this. Like, this story fits really well there. Okay, so you would go out, you'd find these stories, and then we would meet up on a pretty regular basis. Right. To review the research iterate the direction of the book. Can you talk about how one of those meetings might have gone? I think we were meeting like once a week or something like that. How did those meetings go?

Yeah, so they were pretty, pretty fluid and dynamic. We, as we said, had these different stories and people and sometimes we knew exactly like you were saying, where they fit. Sometimes there were holes in where we needed stories, so to speak, and we would try and fit these people in. So I would typically come with all of the research, which would just be a mountain of research. And you would say, that's awesome. I need the Reader's Digest version. And then. And so I would hone it down and try and craft it into, you know, a nutshell version for you. And we would say, yep, this is great. I think it would fit awesome here. No, let's cut that totally. Let's go in a different direction. I think that's great. But I also think, have you thought about this person or this angle? And so it was really fluid as we kind of went back and forth. You know, you had some ideas, I had some ideas. And we tried to marry those as best we could into those core themes and topics that we were trying to lay out for the book.

Yeah, it was pretty informal, too. And it helped that you and I had a preexisting relationship. Right. We had worked together before, which we'll talk about maybe in a little bit. But, yeah, I remember. So we had our formal Starbucks meetings. Formal, quote, unquote, formal. At 5am Once a week. But I remember. I remember a lot of informal ones. Like, I remember one in particular. I was at an airport. I was traveling probably to go meet with a customer or an investor for Threshold. And I remember sitting at the airport at a Burger King, super depressing. On the phone with you, talking about Anthony Gowdy. Right. And I remember this would have a lot. You would have, like, eight notes in my Evernote account that were like. It would take me a week to read them all. And I was just like. Just read me the first three lines. Like, what's the. What's the gist? Give it to me.

Right.

Over the phone. Yes. Yeah. It was just super iterative, though. Right. But that was helpful because you had to do those deep dives on your own in order to understand the essence of all of these stories and all these people, whether or not they fit with our themes. And then I was just able to make judgment calls, like, very, very quickly. Right. And I've told people this before. I think I mentioned this in the acknowledgments of the book. If you didn't research the book, the book would not exist. At least now I was running a company full time. Right. So in the vast majority of the heavy lifting. Right. Of this is really research. But we did work really closely with that. So I'm really curious. You mentioned Monday night brewing, but I'm curious, like, what were some of your favorite stories for the book. Now that the thing's done right, what are some of the ones that really.

Stand out to you? Yeah, well, as I mentioned, Monday night brewing is obviously a great story. You know, just why they decided to brew beer in the first place was just very communal aspect. They wanted to have an arena for the guys to get together, to get to know each other better. And so they started brewing beer and they started doing it well and people started coming and they were coming for the community, they were coming for the beer. And it just turned into this really cool thing that they thought, hey, maybe this is something a community at large needs, and started stepping away from the work they were previously doing to jump into this effort to brew great beer with great taglines. You know, weekends are overrated. I think that's something you and I both love because who doesn't like to have a good beer on a Monday to Wednesday night? So that story was really cool. And, you know, Jeff Heck is just a really cool dude.

Yeah. So hang on, before we move on from Jeff Heck, if you're listening to this episode and you haven't listened to the episode we did with Jeff Heck on the Call to Mastery, it's to this day one of my favorite episodes. I mean, Jeff has one of the most well formed theologies of work of any entrepreneur I known. There's a 100% certainty he has the best theology of work for any brewer of all time. In terms of brewery CEOs. Yeah, he's in. You know, he's the 1%. Who else stands out to you?

For me personally, Gaudi and La Salgada Familia was just really spectacular. Just because researching it and seeing the beauty of the building and the dedication of Gaudi, especially at the end of his life where he just committed to that one thing alone. Just giving all his time and passion and energy into seeing that thing bloom. And as I researched it, just getting to see all of the different aspects of the structure and just from an architectural standpoint, it's amazing. Yeah. And to just know a little bit of the backstory of the man who started it and unfortunately didn't see it to completion, but it still stands as a testimony to his dedication to excellence and good work for the glory of God.

So I want to ask an interesting question. I think it's interesting our listeners might not think so. So you're crazy talented. I've been such a fan of yours for a very long time. Right. But you've done a lot of different things Right. So you've been a pastor, you've been a researcher, you've continued to do freelance work for you version, which listeners might not know, but probably some of the most read content in the world is written by you. You also produce this podcast, right? You are the sole producer of the show. So my question is, do you think you're a master of one? Is there a common thread that runs throughout all of these things in your mind?

I think so. I think that for me, I'm. I'm a teacher at heart. I love to teach. I love to gather and curate information. I love to communicate ideas and stories and narratives and bring people together around that. So I think as I look at the work that I've been doing, whether it's content creation and production, helping with the podcast, or researching, I think it all comes from the same place. This desire to see people reached and instructed and educated and awestruck by whether it's a story we're telling or information we're giving or encouragement that we're offering. So I think that if it's one thing that that's it. It's my desire to see people become better through, again, a story or through some. Some content that I'm giving out. And I mean, I've done that in the classroom, I've done it in the gym as a coach, have done it, you know, from the pulpit and from a lot of different venues. So I think that would be the silver lining, or the scarlet thread, if you will.

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think it's a really good example of a broad one thing. Right. So we talk in the book about the difference between your one thing being super specific or super broad. Right. So Bob Horton, who tunes my pianos and has only tuned pianos for 35 years, his one thing is uber specific. I don't know how you get more specific than that. And he's world class. I love watching Bob to my piano. He's like, he just loves what he does because he's really great at it. But other people's One thing, like C.S. lewis, like we talk about in the book, his one thing was teaching. It was very broad. You're one thing. It sounds like it's very similar. And I agree. I mean, when we were, when we were working on the book together, in a lot of ways, you were teaching me. So you're going out, you're curating information, but you were distilling it for me, who didn't have time to go do all that research. Right. So that I can make the creative connections and do my one thing really well, which is producing these content products and bringing these content products to market. So now I think that's a pretty astute observation. So you got closer to the content of this book than anybody, Right? I mean, other than me, you know this book better than anybody. I'm really curious, like, what impact has the book had in how you think about your own work?

Yeah. So I think from the book, one of the big things that I took away was this idea of not following your passions, but following your gifts. And I think that's huge because in our world, the follow your passions is a, you know, kind of an easy thing to say, especially to young people. When I was a teacher, I saw that a lot students just getting pushed off into college to follow your passions, follow your dreams, which might not even be yours, but they're what the world expects of you. And a lot of them maybe just weren't gifted to do what they were being sent out to do. And so finding your gifts, finding how God has made you what he has given you desires for, but also has made you good at is something I think has been a really, really helpful thing for me, especially as I counsel and talk with other people.

Yeah. You know, it's one of the funniest responses I've heard in the book. I've heard this from, I don't know, maybe a half a dozen students, like, college students, either in speaking or via email, whatever is. I've heard a few people say, I have no idea what I'm passionate about. Like, I'm 20. I'm passionate about video games. So when people tell me to follow my passion, I'm like, what are you talking about? And so these people have found the message of the book to be freeing.

Right.

It's like, okay, just find something I'm good at, and passion will follow, as I love my neighbor well, is actually, ironically, a very liberating message. So. All right, so I'm really curious to shift gears. So you research the book, but you also produce this podcast. Right. For me, again, you know, applying one thing in multiple contexts. So I'm really curious, who's been your favorite guest on the podcast so far? You're gonna offend everybody else, but who are you gonna single out?

It's so hard because they're all so, so good and so different. Each one brings its own flavor and character into the discussion. And I've loved producing each one. I've loved listening to each one several different times. But I think, obviously, one of my Favorites right now, personally, is John Mark Comers, just because I read his book solely and now I've got my entire family going through it in the new year, so we're all going to pursue an unhurried life, if we can, together. So his was obviously really, really cool because it was really close to home. And then I think I actually told her via email, christy Adams is one of my favorites, just because A, she's a teacher and I can feel her pain to some degree, but she's just a super simple, sweet, seemingly normal person who's doing this amazingly exceptional work and teaching students. Teaching middle school students nonetheless, which I taught middle school students. And that is just a calling. Yeah, yeah. And so just listening to her just be super straightforward and normal and stuff, I thought that was just a really, really sweet episode.

I think we mentioned this in Chrissy's episode because we did a retake. She, like, forced us to do a retake of the episode. And I can't remember if we mentioned the version we actually aired, but we ended the first interview and she was like. She and I were kind of both.

Like, that was rough.

And you were in the next room and I came over there and you were like, that's gonna be this audience's favorite episode. And it really is great because. And yeah, I've said before, I want the guests on this show to be increasingly diverse, Right. I think we're doing a better job of that. I think we can get much, much better at it. And diverse in terms of race, diverse in terms of vocation, diverse in gender, but also diverse in relative fame of the guests. I've said this a million times, right? World class does not necessarily mean world famous. And so I want more Christy Adams of the World. So, by the way, if you're listening to this and you've got evidence to point to that you're truly world class at your craft, but nobody knows who you are. You know, shamelessly reach out. That's actually what I actually want to hear from you. I want to hear these stories and be able to share these stories with the world. So, all right, you've listened to every episode of the show. You know, that kind of. This next theme of the episodes, we talk about routines, daily habits. So I'm really curious, have there been any practical tips, routines, habits, whatever, that you've integrated into your life that you first heard here on the Call to Mastery?

I don't know if I've integrated anything that I've first heard is if it's brand new, but one of the things. Yeah, nothing's new under the sun, right? But Missy Wallace talking about Lectia Divine and even her quarterly Quiet Day, I was like, I want to figure out a way to do that. I currently do the Lecte Divine in my reading time. But the day of just solitude and kind of separating yourself and just taking a spiritual day a quarter or whatever, I was like, I need to figure out how to do that. So that was one that I thought was really great and have been wanting to try and implement in my life. And then Jeff Heck and Sabbath. I know a couple of our guests have talked about Sabbath and keeping a Sabbath. Taking a Sabbath. I know you have as well. One of the things he said I thought was really great because I have three kiddos are always running crazy. But he said Sabbath for him is settling for a kiddie pool and a beer. And I was like, I can do that. I can Sabbath that way.

That's one of my favorite lines. I actually think about that line almost every Sabbath I do. It's one of the best lines of the podcast so far. Yeah.

Yep. We have moved away from the kiddie pool because our backyard is like turning into a giant mud pit. It's a little cooler now, but it's turned into. We have a trampoline. So a trampoline and a beer.

I love it.

So there it is.

That's so great. So you mentioned lectio divina. I've been fascinated by this for a long time. This method of studying scripture. Break down for our audience, who's never heard of this term before. What is lectio divina? What does this look like?

Yeah, so it's just a way of approaching the scriptures. And for me personally, it's a way of approaching it with kind of a non academic sense. As. As you mentioned, I've kind of gone to seminary trained theologian and seminary really forces us to be academic, to kind of be looking for things, to be very, very mindful of that kind of thing. And so this just allows me to kind of put that aside and enter into what is God saying? How can I commune with God in this moment? So basically what I do with it is I take time to read a small portion of scripture and I typically read it one time very slowly, just in my head. I'll read it a second time very slowly out loud, and then I'll read it again out loud, kind of filling in words to make it a little bit more conversational.

Like, can you give an example on the spot?

Yeah. So I read Isaiah chapter 60 verses 1 through 6 this morning. And it says, arise, Jerusalem. And so as I'm reading it that third time, as I'm listening to the Spirit, arise, Jerusalem. I'm thinking, arise, stand up, Jerusalem. You've been kicked down for so long, you've been oppressed, you've been sent into exile, you are God's people who have experienced the ebb and flow and here comes the future and it's time to stand up. And so I'm just kind of like talking those things out verbally, I guess, just with myself in the Spirit. It could probably look funny if you walked in. And so I'll do that a couple different times. So kind of two, maybe three readings of the small portion of Scripture. And then I'll really focus in on some things that the Spirit is bringing to my attention. So words or phrases that as I read them, they just strike a nerve or strike a chord with me. And I'll kind of jot those down and then I'll go back over those and kind of just prayerfully ask, okay, God, what are these words? Why are they jumping out at me? What do they mean? Is there something you want me to get? And I'll kind of write and jot down some things there and then as I do that, I'll typically write out a prayer at the end based on those words or phrases that have jumped out. And then when I finish that prayer, I'll pray it out loud. And then I'll spend maybe two to three minutes just quiet, just contemplating on those words, phrases, the time that I've spent, what's taken place and, and that's kind of my approach to it. I'm sure there's different ways. I think the most common way is that kind of read, think, pray, meditate and live into.

I love it. So the only time I've done this, I don't know why I haven't done it more because it was such a powerful experience. I was at Praxis, so one of my favorite organizations, Praxis, it's an accelerator for Christian led startups. And I was at their annual event in New York and we did it corporately together. So all sitting around these tables are probably 300 people in the room, went through Lacto Divina together and it was a remarkable experience. I remember we were reading through Daniel like I remember what passage we were reading through. I can say that a very few, you know, experiences that are that far away. I mean, I think that was two years ago, something like that. So I'm a big Fan of it. So lectio divyant. We'll have to put some something in the show notes to link people to how to do this well, but that was a great explanation. So practical business daily weekly habits, routines. I'm always curious to learn. Like not the stuff that you're experimenting with because like I'm always experimenting with new routines. But what's the stuff you've been doing for years, maybe even a decade that you swear by that either makes you exceptional at work or at home? Like, what does that look like for you?

So I get up early before the family gets up to do my devotions. I've tried to, since becoming a Christian, spend the first portion of my day upon waking in prayer and communing with the Lord through scripture and stuff like that. So I'll get up early before anybody else gets up, typically about 5:15, and spend a good amount of time doing my morning devotions. And it's been really cool though because my oldest son, Leland has started waking up early now and he sits down and does them with me. So it's like a really cool father son thing. So it's been exciting. So I get up early, do that. Kind of an early morning person. Anyways, once I finish up that I get to whatever the most important task I have for the day. So as my next thing. I know you talk about first things first. Yeah, first things first. Kind of that deep work. I don't have it blocked out probably as. As well as I should, but I know here's one, two main tasks I need to get done early. And so I get those things done first in the workday and then go about my day. I typically work out once a day during the weekdays. That's a great outlet for me. It's something I've been doing for a while and has really helped physically, mentally, emotionally sometimes. So I typically do that. And then at the end of every week I do a mind dump. I didn't know that. Yep.

Interesting.

Yep. So I spend about 30 minutes by myself with a pad of paper and a pen, old school. I don't even get the computer out and I just write down everything I can think of from that previous week and I just dump it all out.

Like responsibilities, like things you need to do or just journaling or what?

Not really journaling, just literally anything that's coming to mind. So I mean literally it can be things I've left undone from a vocational standpoint, things I've accomplished, family things, spiritual things, things that have just been on my mind. And I just write all those out and then I try and categorize them. And if they're things that I see keep coming up over and over again, then I'll add them to a journal that I keep and they become prayer requests or they become things that I need to put on my to do list, whatever that might be. But I started doing this probably three years ago.

Yeah.

And it's. I caught wind of it via a YouTube video by the Art of Manliness. And he talked about it just the way he explained it and made so much sense. He's like, it's like clearing your hard drive. Yeah. And so it just allows me to get everything off my mind and onto paper so that I can look at it and I can kind of walk away for the weekend.

Yeah. So all my listeners know I'm obsessed with getting things done by David Allen. And he recommends something similar on a. I can't remember what frequency he recommends. I think quarterly, maybe, maybe every six month basis. Kind of the mind sweep.

Right.

So. No, I like that. I like the weekly minesweep idea a lot. So, Chris, you are a professionally trained theologian and you've served as a pastor. And I don't think I've met anybody who's as passionate about this topic as me, as you are about helping the church understand why their work is eternally significant, how it's eternally significant, and praying that that inspires each of us to lean more ambitiously, if that's the word, into the work that God's created us to do for his glory and the good of others. Why do you care so much about this? Like, what's driving this desire for you to see the church embrace their vocations in this way?

Oh man. How much time do we have? Alright, I gotta think through how to distill this. Well, first of all, our work constitutes so much of our life. We spend so much time at work thinking about work, looking towards what our work is doing for us or for others, so on and so forth. And so I think it's important for Christians to think about, okay, how does our faith connect with that part of our lives? I also am very passionate about it because, to be frank, it's a thing. And we're like, we have this faith and work thing. And I'm kind of at some respects bewildered that we have that.

I hate to say I've said this before. Why do we have to say faith and work?

Why is it two separate things? Like we have this false dichotomy. I think that somehow that came about, and now we're living with this concept of faith and work. But I think those two need to be married and ought to be married. I think that the biblical story assumes that they should be married in a very intentional way. And so my passion really flows from the desire to see people in organizations and such marrying those things, their faith and their work, so that they're not two separate things. That it's one thing that this is my faith being lived out, and my work is just a part of how.

That's an expression. Yeah, it's an expression of who I am as a follower of Christ. Right. He's called me. To glorify God and love neighbor, self, and work is a way that I do that. It really is that simple.

Right.

So I was down in South Florida, your old neck of the woods. This is going back, I don't know, six months, seven months, something now. And we're having this conversation with a bunch of pastors about that, you know, yes, excellence at work, masterful work, often opens up doors to share the gospel explicitly. But that's not the most fundamental purpose of mastery.

Right.

It's a good thing, and we should embrace it and share the gospel whenever we have a chance. But the purpose of mastery at its most fundamental level is to love God and love others to our work. Love your neighbor as yourself was a complete sentence. Right. So I'm curious, as a trained theologian, like, what would you say to the Christian professional, the accountant, the entrepreneur, whoever is listening to this podcast, about the eternal significance of their work, even when they aren't necessarily sharing the gospel with every employee and every customer, every chance they get?

Yeah. Well, I think the first thing I would say is, don't give up. Keep doing excellent work. That would be the first and foremost encouragement I would give, because it's necessary. If nothing else, it's a benefit to the community around you. But from a biblical theological standpoint, I would say that, as you said, yes, sharing the gospel explicitly is important, but so is doing excellent work. And I think the problem comes, at least to some degree, is our understanding of what the gospel is. We've kind of turned it into this very truncated, how do I help you know how to get to heaven and escape the alternative?

Exclusively saving souls?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's basically, you know, how to get saved. And for whatever reason, we've arrived at this place in history where our churches are propagating this message that we go out and we get people saved and we get as many saved as possible, and that becomes the message of our sole responsibility as a Christian. And I think that's to some degree unfortunate because the gospel is so much bigger than that. The gospel is so much broader and so much more beautiful than that if you allow it to develop and flower as it does throughout the pages of Scripture.

All right, so go deeper here, right? So the gospel isn't just about saving souls. It's about the redemption of all things. Take us there, Keep going.

Yeah. So God creates, right, this beautiful place we call the world. He creates everything that we see and taste and smell, plants, trees, birds, all of this stuff. And then at the pinnacle of his creation is human beings. And so he's created a space for human beings to now come and be with him, to dwell with him. And things are going great. He gives us this command as human beings to be his ambassadors into the world, to take what he has given the raw materials of the world and to build and grow and flourish and to keep the project moving. To fill the earth. Yeah, to fill the earth. And unfortunately in the story, it takes a negative turn because of our rebellion, because of our selfishness, everything starts to fall apart, right? The curse comes as we have in Genesis 3. That work is going to be to. It's going to be weary, it's going to be difficult. And so we move out of the garden into this world now where we are disconnected from God. Our relationship has been severed and things are starting to fall apart. And we begin to then take it up in our own hands and try and fix it and try and mend it and try and make it better, right? All the while God is saying, no, no, no, I'm going to handle this, I'm going to do it. Follow me. Be obedient. And we keep failing, right? We fail in all kinds of things like marriage, like our finances, relationships, all of these things that we're trying to put back together ultimately, because that's not our role and responsibility. Our responsibility is to be obedient. And so ultimately God takes us through the story and he is showing us, you can't do it. I'm going to do it. And then on the scene comes Jesus, who becomes the fulfillment of all of those promises and says, now because of what I have done, I am giving access back to the Father, back to this original design. And so with the resurrection in the apostles mind, especially Paul, the resurrection changes everything. I can become a human as I was meant to be once more. And so it reconstitutes in Paul's mind everything, right? Everything has changed, including work Right. Everything should be different, including our work. And so this idea of the gospel is not how to be saved. This idea of the gospel is the good news that God has done what we are incapable of doing in bringing all things back into subjection to Himself, to his beautiful, amazing, benevolent reign, and then giving us access to once again go out and take it and make it amazing, awesome and beautiful. I mean, heaven is not going to be us sitting on clouds playing harps. It's going to be us continuing to display the glory of God through the amazing work and creative abilities that he's given us to do and to utilize. I mean, that's why we have, in Isaiah chapter 60, which I mentioned earlier, we have this vision of Jerusalem arising and we've got riches and wealth and camels and nations all coming into Jerusalem. Well, they're not just going to get there and stop, stand around. They're going to get there and they're going to utilize these things to grow and to flourish and to honor and glorify God and serve each other and make God's new world his new kingdom. An amazing place for humans to dwell with God once more.

I love it so much. By the way, I love that you just happened to be reading Isaiah 60 today. It's one of my favorite passages of scripture because of this. Yeah, right. There are culture. The picture is the reversal of Babel. Right. So Babel, everyone went out from the city and dispersed throughout the world. New Jerusalem, Isaiah 60 is a picture of it. New heavens, new earth. People are coming back in the city with cultural goods in hand, with ships, with all these other things that they're laying at the feet of Christ. Right.

It's beautiful.

And so now I love this theme. And at some point I got to write a book about this. Right. Probably should go to seminary first. But this idea that the gospel is not just about saving souls, it's about the redemption of all things and pointing towards the coming kingdom and the ultimate redemption of all things that Jesus is going to do. Can we talk about NT Wright and surprised by Hope for a second. Have you read this?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. I thought. Yeah.

I actually just recommended it to my sister in law.

Okay. So I just reread the book and I love this idea that he had. He calls it creating for the kingdom. Right. So we as Christians, we do not create the kingdom. Only Jesus can do that, the kingdom of heaven. But we can create for the kingdom. He talks a lot about First Corinthians 15:58, where Paul, after, I think the longest exposition about heaven in all of the Bible. He concludes it by saying, therefore, in light of this future hope, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. Right? So most readers would say, okay, great, Heaven's coming, Our work doesn't matter. Paul's saying the exact opposite. In fact, N.T. wright, Tim Keller all agree that labor there means not just ministry, but all work that we do. N.T. wright, in this great book, which if you're listening, you gotta read, Surprised by Hope, goes on to conclude that if our work is not in vain, somehow the work that we do today lasts into eternity. And he admits in the book, he's like, I don't know how this is gonna happen.

Right.

We have ideas. We could paint pictures of what that might look like. But Scripture promises us that our work is not in vain. It has eternal significance beyond saving souls. Right. So have you gone through that thought exercise? Have you sat down and thought, okay, how might. And obviously we don't know for sure, but how might our work today not be in vain? Have you thought about that?

Yeah, it's an interesting mental exercise to consider that because there's so much unknown and there's so much in scripture that is at least to some degree unknown, which is why the writers have to use images and metaphors to try and describe what's carrying on and what's going on. But as we think about it, you know, I have to think it would be much easier for me to think how an artist, how their work would carry on. Like, you know, somehow Jesus is going to have a Monet hanging up above his throne sort of thing, the glory.

Of the nations, as Isaiah 60 calls it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easier to think about that. It's much harder to think, okay, well, so how does a really great plumber.

Yeah.

How does their work carry on, you know, into the new heavens and the new earth, so to speak? But I think what happens when we do our work with excellence, when we do what Paul's talking about here, because as I mentioned earlier, he's this exposition from First Corinthians 15 is all about the resurrection and what's coming. Right. If Jesus has been raised and resurrection power and life is being offered to people through faith, then that changes everything. Then everything is different. And I think we need to get that mindset. We need our minds reframed into the reality that everything has changed because of the resurrection. The resurrection doesn't just mean I get to go to heaven. It means I get to be with God again. It means I get to be in his presence once more in the now and in the future. And so I think as we consider what that might look like, I think as it reorients the way we work, we realize that if I'm a really great plumber, you know, I might not get a piece of art hanging above the throat of Jesus, so to speak. But I'm doing this as an opportunity to worship God for the gifts and talents and abilities and just joy of work that he has given me. And I'm offering it as a service to another human being. Right. And as an opportunity for me to love them as you say, and to serve them as you say. And to do so without needing any kind of payment, obviously paid for your service, but without needing any.

You need to get anything else from the work.

Right?

You could serve the work.

Exactly. The work becomes the method of service and the method of glorifying God and serving the world.

That's beautiful. I think a lot about the plumber is a good example.

Right.

So whatever the job is, whatever the vocation is, we all are called to be ambassadors of Christ, right? To demonstrate his character to the world and just to reveal truth and the truth of the kingdom, wherever we are, we can do that, whatever our role is, by doing the work well, by doing the work with integrity. And that should crave a hunger for truth in the world. And unveil. And sort of unveil this. This true story, this deeper story that makes people yearn for something bey this world, right? Yearn for the kingdom, yearn to be reconciled to God. And that is a good and beautiful thing.

Yeah. It's so necessary. And as we think about the plumber, I just think even today, how, like, that's a job that nobody wants to do, really, it seems. And I have friends that are plumbers, and they're like, our work is backed up months. And it would be so easy then to take advantage of customers because they're like, I can't get another plumber for a month. I guess I'll use this guy, right? And as a believer, you're still doing it with integrity. You're doing it with honesty. You're doing a great job. And that could just speak volumes to people that you may never know.

I love it.

How that's done, how that's happened.

I love it. All right. So you get to answer the questions that you hear every time you edit the podcast and produce the Podcast. So which books do you recommend or gift the most? Frequently?

This was a hard one for me as I thought about it, because I give or recommend a variety of books, depending on who I'm talking to in the situation. But I think that there's two that I have recommended the most. One would be Desiring the Kingdom by Jamie Smith. A fantastic book. Has a ton to do with how we view and intuit the world. And it's not necessarily our logical thinking, but it has a lot more to do with our hearts and our desires.

Yeah. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I just read my first Jimmy King book. I totally forgot to say I read. You are what you love.

Yes, yes.

Great, beautiful book.

Yeah. So that distills his kind of three part work on this cultural liturgies that he's done and they are phenomenal.

That's a great book. Okay, so Discovering the Kingdom. What's the second?

And the second one is. It's a bit older, but I love it because it's super prophetic. Neil Postman amusing ourselves to death. And it talks about how we have moved into a leisure, entertainment driven world in the west and that has hijacked all the important things, religion, philosophy, politics, and has turned it into this kind of spectator sport.

Interesting.

Weird way.

Yeah, that's. That's super interesting. All right, so I'm very interested to hear your answer to this one. What one person would you most like to hear talk about the intersection of their faith and their work on this podcast?

All right, I had a number of names for this one too, because you've.

Sent me a lot of names, so I have Very curious.

A lot of names. Yeah. I think the one that I would love to hear is a guy. His name's Don Clark. He's an artist and illustrator. He and his brother work. Ryan founded this design firm called Invisible Creature. Prior to that, they were in a band called Demon Hunter. So it's this kind of like hardcore, like Christian band. And they're like all tattooed up and rough and rugged and they do these amazing, amazing designs. Don Clark illustrated a children's book.

I forget who the biggest story.

Kevin DeYoung.

I just finished reading it to my kids. It's remarkably great. It's so great.

It's so good. So Kevin DeYoung obviously does a great job with the narrative and Don Clark just captures the beauty and the majesty of the story with his art and just such a fantastic way, at least in my opinion. So I would love to have him on here and just talk about his work and how his faith intersects with that and how that dynamic changed or propels or whatever his design process.

So I've got good news.

Okay.

Don's coming on the podcast. Yeah. So I told you this.

I feel like, as the producer, I should know.

You should know this. So I just. Literally just got an email from him because I reached out about something different, actually, and he said he'd love to be on the show. So he's probably not going to be on until late 2020, but Don Clark is coming on board.

There it is. See, we're just.

All right, so real quick, now that he's coming on, do you have one more name?

Oh, man. Yeah. So actually, Malcolm Gladwell.

Yeah, that's it. That's a great one.

Love to hear Malcolm Gladwell. So the Tipping Point is another book that I recommend to Ton. Love all of his books. And just after his publication of David and Goliath, I read an interview with him about kind of the rekindling of his. His faith, so to speak. And so I'd love to hear him talk about that.

That's a. That's a great. That's great. We'll try it. We'll try to get Malcolm Gladwell on. All right. Finally, what one piece of advice would you give somebody who is out there trying to pursue mastery of their chosen vocation?

I would say put in the work. You know, put in the work of learning and growing into that thing that you're pursuing. Put the work into learning and growing and understanding who you are and who God has created you to be and how he has given you talents and desires and gifts and how you can develop those in whatever that particular arena is, whether it's super narrow, like plumbing and fixing toilets, or it's super broad, like communicating or teaching. Finding ways to develop that talent, finding people around you that will be honest with you, to give you great feedback, but also to walk with you. You know, it's one thing to get feedback. It's another thing to get feedback. And then people say, no, I want to walk with you on this journey. Kind of that mentor, friendship, even aspect as you move through that process of developing and growing.

That's a good word. Chris, I just want to commend you for being such a masterful teacher, communicator. I'm just personally indebted to you. You guys would not be listening to this podcast. You would not be reading Master of One if it wasn't for Chris Perry. You're also just one of the best people I know. And I love hanging out. Thank you for just using your skills really well to share the truths of Scripture with the world and help Christians connect their faith at their work. And thanks for being willing to do this episode, man. Appreciate it.

I love it, man. I appreciate it as well.

I loved that conversation. I hope you guys really like that section on the new heavens and the new Earth. By the way, if you did, if you're interested in this topic of how eternity should shape our work today, shoot me an email. Jordanordanraynor.com I really am thinking about a book on this topic, but I'd love to hear from you guys whether or not you're interested in this at all. So yeah, do that for me. And hey, if you haven't already, go ahead and pick up a copy ofMaster of One on Amazon at Barnes and Noble wherever you buy your books. I think you're gonna love the the stories that Chris uncovered. I think you're going to love the story of Dowdy and Monday Night Brewing and all of these different stories in the book. So go check that out now. Hey, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.