Cory Carlson (Author of Win at Home First)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right? I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as Animal breeders, glassblowers, and neurologists. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Corey Carlson, a former corporate America executive whose experience of the gospel led him to start a coaching practice to help you and I win at home. While we are winning at the work God has given us to do. Corey and I recently sat down to talk about how Paul's example of boasting in his weaknesses compelled Corey to hand over his small story for a greater story. We shared two ways that Christian self care should differ from the world's version of this idea. And we also talked about how winning at home leads to bigger wins at work. I think you guys are going to enjoy this episode with my friend, Cory Carlson. Corey Carlson, finally. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Well, Jordan, thank you very much for having me. It's awesome to be with you again. I mean, we were together months ago in Tampa and I loved it. I'm grateful for the time we got to spend together and can't wait to have another conversation. What a way to kick off the new year.

Yeah. Come on now. So I told you it is really rare that I take coffee meetings with no agenda. Right. Like, if somebody has agenda they want to talk about something, sure, I'll consider it, but no agenda. Whatever. But when you asked to hang out in Tampa.

Yeah. I took a chance. I just was like, you know, what I'm coming down there for actually, is redeeming your time retreat for the listeners. And if you do another one of those, the listeners, you need to go. It was pretty powerful. It's pretty cool. But I just was like, you know what? I'm just going to see if I can spend some time with them before we do it. And you said yes.

Well, let me tell you why I said yes. Because I have become such a big fan of you and your work over the last couple of years. I loved both your books, Rise and Go and Win at Home First. I actually wrote the forward Rise and Go. I loved it so much. I want to focus today's episode on your first book, When At Home First. And I want to start with the impetus for this book. You were sitting in a church classroom. This is now more than a decade ago, when the Holy Spirit, like, moved in. You take us inside that scene.

Yeah. I love starting off the podcast, too. Diving in the deep end.

We're going all the way to the deep end. Yeah.

And that's really. That's all we got time for. Right. There should be a sense of urgency to not to talk about the real stuff and not just surface level. And so for me, I was in a leadership class. I was in Denver, Colorado. My wife and I were going to this church. And when you're a kind of high energy, charisma kind of guy, they, you know, you get invited to be a volunteer and go through volunteer classes at the church. And so that's what happened. And the pastor, his name's Jay Pathick, he was just awesome. I was taking notes. I loved every time he spoke. I was just love hearing and learning from his wisdom. This particular night, he's talking about character and the importance of character for all members of the church, but especially volunteer leaders, so that something, you know, wouldn't happen and mess up the church. And. And so I'm listening, I'm taking notes and completely dialed in. And all of a sudden I hear this audible, or what was audible to me, and it was from the Holy Spirit of, you need to come clean of your affair. And I was like, what? Who is that? What's going on? And just heard very clearly that I need to come clean of my affair. And I had an affair a few years prior and didn't come clean of it.

Yeah, this is years before, right?

Yeah, well, it actually was years before. Probably about two, three years before, without actually, you know, doing the math and thinking it all through. But yeah, about two, three years before. And so we can talk about, you know, kind of all those pieces along the way, if anything to help the listener. But really, for me, when that night it was, you need to come clean your affair, I'm like. And so I started having this wrestling match with God. As I'm sitting in there in this room, I have no idea what I look like to everybody else. They're all paying attention, and here I am kind of wrestling with God. I was like, I don't need to come clean up my affair. Why would I do that? I just got promoted. We moved to Denver. I'm making more money than I had made. Life's pretty good. If I come cleaning the affair, that. That can wreck things. I'll just, you know, volunteer more. I'll, you know, tithe more. I'll. I'll kind of do whatever I need to. God, I don't want to come cleaning my affair. So as I'm sitting there in the room kind of still doing this, all of a sudden, I hear another phrase that at the time I wasn't familiar with, but it was, you need to hand over your story for a greater story. And I was like, what does that mean? But it started just giving me some peace, which sounds really weird, but I just started having this peace. And then so on the way home, as I'm driving, thinking, all right, all right, God, this is kind of last chance here. If my wife's awake, then I will tell her of the affair. If she's not awake, hey, that's on you. I'm not telling her about it. Well, I get home and she is asleep, so I didn't have to tell her. Well, the next day I just. It came flooding back in that I need to come clean in my fair hand over, you know, my story for a greater story. And eventually that night I ended up telling my wife. And thankfully the Holy Spirit came over her to say that it was going to be okay. That does not mean that it was cupcakes and balloons at the Carlson household. There were doors slammed and yelling, and rightfully so, because I was just a jerk for doing something like that. But over the course of weeks, which led to months, which led to years, was us just each growing closer individually to Jesus, us growing closer as a couple to Jesus. And we had community helping us. We were going to different kind of classes, counseling through. Through the church, and. And just a lot of cool things took place. And so I'm very, very grateful for the restoration in our marriage. And, you know, this summer will be 25 years, which is pretty darn cool and powerful, praise God. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I love it. So you had this big job, you're running large sales teams in corporate America when all this is happening. And you said something in the book that I thought was just like super insightful and more self aware than most people. Here's. I want to read this from Win at Home. First quote. Before I came clean about my affair, I was trying to offset the defeat I was feeling in my personal life with the wins at work. I thought, I know I'm not winning at home, but if I can win at work, I will be okay, End quote. And I'm just like projecting here, right? Like reflecting back. But, man, like, you know, I've written a lot about the work beneath our work. That's what this sounds like to me as I read this. You correct me if I'm not. Were using your work as a fig leaf to cover your shame. You were using it almost as a form of self salvation, even though you would have never used those words. Am I reading that right?

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. I mean, I remember even thinking like, kind of beyond those sentences and what, what that Meant like, I mean, I remember having thoughts of, well, if I make enough money then my wife won't want to leave me. Or if I make enough money then I can tithe more and I'll be, you know, seen as a good, good man, you know, or if I make enough money and then which leads to maybe other businesses I could start or what have you. I could employ more people and I could be a blessing that way. So I'm going to go do these amazing things to the kingdom and basically keep my skeleton in the closet, man.

What broke you of that thinking?

What broke me of that thinking? Well, not only was there that night for sure, which we talked about, but when we moved from Kansas City to Denver, I remember my wife at one point said, hey, we should start going to church again. And I was kind of dragging my feet on that because I didn't want to go to church knowing I had the skeleton in my closet. I mean, I at least had that, you know, had some moral compass, had some character, be like, hey, I know what I did was wrong and I was in a bad place. And anyway, so I was there, but I was. My wife said, let's start going to church. We started going to church and God started putting cool guys around me that I never that who were talking about like their brokenness. And I never been around that before. It just seemed like the people I'd always been around with at different times were. It was all surface level talk. Let's talk about sports, let's talk about the weather. But God was putting me around these different men who were talking about struggles in their marriage or maybe a guy had a challenge with porn addiction or how they were not feeling fulfilled at work or lacking purpose. But all of them were still trying to point towards growing in their faith with Jesus and what do we need to do about it? So this just became kind of like my small group and the people I was spending time with. So even though I didn't know it at the time, God was using community to start to soften my heart that I could be loved and received for even my brokenness, my brokenness, my mistake was not gonna define me and that God wasn't done with me. And even though I didn't know all these at the thing, that was what was happening. So when that night happened in Denver, when it was like, hey, you need to come clean your fair. There have been months leading up to it, unbeknownst to me that God was using this community, these kind of band of brothers sharing their brokenness but yet they were still growing closer to God. I was like, this is my story now. I mean, like, this can happen. This is happening. So that's kind of why I broke free of it, because I realized that I could be loved even in my brokenness. God would take me as I am, but he didn't want me to stay there. Yeah.

Amen. It's so good. Corey, you know this podcast all about how does the gospel shape our work? And I think one of the clearest ways I see the gospel influencing your work is what we've been talking. This is a picture of 2nd Corinthians 12, where Paul says that he will boast in his weaknesses, Right? Because when we do boast in our weaknesses, Christ gets the glory. And not only did you confess your affair and boast in that weakness to your wife, I mean, in this book, in this work you're doing, you're confessing this deepest, darkest skeleton to the world. Talk more about why you choose to boast. Boast in your weaknesses publicly, because it's one thing to do it privately with your wife. Why do it publicly?

The main reason is hand over my story for a greater story. Like, that's what that started to mean. That's what it means all the way to this today is I'm handing over my story, my brokenness. You know, I try to be vulnerable when it makes sense. It's not like I'm just running around telling everyone in the world, hey, I had an affair. I mean, because then it gets kind of discredited and it's just exactly. Doesn't mean anything. So in the right place, I'll share that. But even though I'm not even sharing just the affair piece, just other pieces that it has just became, basically my life mission is I want to help connect people to greater performance, even more significant purpose. That is my purpose statement. And so greater performance for me is I help clients when at home and when at work. Like, that is what my focus. You know, that's what I do for a living. Now I'm an executive coach and a keynote speaker. I left corporate because I just felt this fear, this push to go help more leaders. When I was in corporate, my last job was I was president of sales for a national contractor. And I would travel around the country helping leaders both at home and work. So I would talk to all the sales team. If I went to travel to Nashville to be with that sales individual, or New York to be with the sales rep up there, wherever I was, it was, hey, are you dating your Spouse, are you being intentional with your kids? Are you journaling? Are you getting quiet time? Then that was focusing on the home piece, but on the work piece it was, hey, are you blocking out time in your schedule to do business development or proposal follow up? Are you having think time on your calendar like helping them win at work and when at home? And the back half of that purpose statement is to have to connect them to even more significant purpose. And so if I was working with a believer, it was, hey, how you, how's your walk with Jesus going? If I was not working with a believer or they stated their position that they weren't want to talk about faith, I was just helping them see life as a greater picture. Like who are you serving? How can you give more of yourself, right? Give more than take. And when I saw it made a difference in these, the sales team's lives and our profitability, our EBITDA improved, I was like, I want to do this for a living. And so that's when I left corporate to become be a coach. And so that's what I do now is where I'm just, I'm trying to help men when at home, when at work, and then connect them to Jesus in a better way. More quiet time and reading scripture and, and that's what I want to do. Because at the end of the day, I mean Jordan, just like a lot of your life mission, it's, it's what it's about. I mean it's, it's the great commission in trying to, you know, go and help and make disciples. And so for me, I love business. I like P L, I like strategy. It's a game, it's kind of win win. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter at all if we've allowed our marriages to crumble. We don't have relationship with our kids, our personal health isn't going very well. So to me it's a both. And like you have to be successful in the family room and in the boardroom. It's not an either or, it's a both and. And a lot of leaders don't know how to do that.

I agree. And I'm going to come back to the how here in a minute. But first, as I hear you talk, it's clear that you're ambitious for your work. Right? And I know from prior conversations with you that that ambition is largely proper and biblical and righteous.

Right.

I know that you see this work as a vehicle for the glory of God and the good of others. That said we just talked a few minutes ago about how ambitious this dark side to ambition of using our work and our ambition for it to something from it that God never designed for it to give to us. You even said in the book, quote, ambition is usually centered around guilt. So for you, how do you discern if the balance of your heart is leaning towards that righteous ambition or that selfish ambition that is fueled by guilt? How do you keep this thing at check?

Yeah, I mean, fantastic question. And the only way I can keep it in check is to continue quiet time, praying about it, asking God, as David talks about in Psalms, search my heart, know my everlasting ways, like, am I, how am I doing on this God and taking it to him. And I. I miss it some days for sure. I remember a few years ago, actually, was it one to two years ago, I took six weeks off my podcast. I have a podcast, went home first, which you've been a guest on, but I was finding myself going to Libsyn, which for those that aren't familiar with podcast, it is a third party that pretty much counts all the downloads where they're from and pays attention there. But Jordan, what I was doing is I was going to Lipsyn almost every day to see what my downloads were and how am I doing. And if they were great, then I thought I was the man. But if they didn't go well, then I obviously thought I was awful. And so what I was finding Jordan. And through quiet time, I felt challenged that I was making my podcast an idol. I was taking my identity to my podcast. And I felt through quiet time, a conviction to hit pause on the podcast for however long it may be. And so I did. I stopped recording my podcast episodes, I stopped going to Libsyn, and I just treated my podcast with open hands of like, God, this is yours, do what you want with it. And so I just, I gave it up. And about six weeks in to that kind of out of the blue, in a quiet time, I felt I was given permission if I wanted to, to go back to my podcast. And so I did. And since then I have. I go to Libsyn maybe once a quarter. And that's just more from a number standpoint. I like to track numbers in my business, KPIs, but it's in a healthy place, man.

But kudos to you to being willing to press pause on the podcast after you've recognized, okay, this is an idol. And I love how practically, oh yeah, if you're checking your analytics 10 times a 10 times away and your emotions can correlate to those downloads. Your spiritual health can be correlated to those download numbers. I don't know what it is for you, listener. Right. Your sales numbers or your Instagram likes, man. That's probably a good sign that that's an idol that needs to be placed in check. All right, hey, let's roll up our sleeves a little bit more, a little bit further about what it looks like to win at home first. Because I would argue that one of the ways the gospel should shape the work of believers is, is that we should care about winning at home. And I'll be honest with you, man, A lot of times, at least for me, the work I do at home of loving my spouse and loving my kids is way harder than the work I do in my office and in my flesh. I would much rather just focus on winning at work because the wins come so much more easily and the wins come with, frankly, a whole lot more praise of man than. I'm assuming the same has been true for you throughout your career. If so, how does the example of Christ compel you to do the hard work of winning at home first? Have you thought a lot about this?

Yes, I have. I mean, to win, it works easier, right? There's KPIs and our employees, our team members, they have to do it at home. You say something and kids roll their eyes or my wife's not always supportive of everything I want to do as far as, hey, let's have a deep conversation, family around the dinner table, and I get rolled eyes. And it's hard where at work you don't get that? Because pretty much they have to do it because everyone's getting paid to agree. Or obviously there's healthy conflict, I get that. But there's a level of agreeance. Or let's just push this forward and yes, let's sit through this boring strategy session together, or let's have all of our one on one meetings. But anyways, for me, what I just noticed is we do all these things at work. Vision statements and one on one meetings and annual planning, but we don't do it at home. We're intentional at work, but we wing it at home. And that's just a mess. And even as we talk about the Great Commission, you know, go and make disciples, many people took that literally and like, go, almost like, go leave your house and go make disciples. And to me it's like, no, we have to start in the home. And how am I raising my kids? And how am I being a spiritual leader in my home? Am I talking about God. Not only am I going to church, but is God brought up throughout the week, not just a family prayer, but how are we talking about decision making and how are we talking about treating people or generosity? And so I just felt convicted that, hey, I don't want to go out and make disciples and do amazing things out there, but yet I've neglected my home and my kids are a train wreck. My marriage is crumbling. It had to be both. Yeah.

And the example of Christ compels us to do hard things, too. Hard things that don't give us immediate gratification, like doing the hard work of winning at home. Hey, one more question before we get super practical about what this looks like. I think this is an interesting case to make that winning at home first is essential if you want sustainable wins at work. You kind of been beating around that bush because, listen, I know plenty of people who are winning at work without winning at home. So make the case for, if you can, how winning at home helps us win at work in a more sustainable way.

Yeah, absolutely. I think for those individuals out there, whether they're a listener to this, they may not be listening this podcast, but those that are out there, you know, if you win at work but you did not win a home, eventually all your winnings are split 50, 50. Right. If you've got to get a divorce, I mean, all those amazing winnings you just did, you. You now have to give it up. And that's. I mean, that's just one thing to look at. Obviously it's a shallow perspective, but that's. It could be a reality. But even if, Even if it never gets to that point of divorce and you're. You and your spouse are just roommates for the rest of your life, it's. It's not a thriving marriage. It's just, you're just roommates. You can perform better at work if you win a home first. Just take the, you know, the idea of if you and your spouse get in a fight at 7am at home, arguing about who's picking up who from school or whatever the argument is, but you're arguing at 7 when you go that 9am meeting, you are not bringing your best self because while you're in meeting, trying to show up, give your best, you may get a text at your phone or on your smartwatch that throws you off your game. And throughout the day, as you're trying to think about, hey, how do I kind of deliver the best proposal? Or how do I write creatively or give the strong presentation to the customer, whatever it is, at some point in there, you're thinking about that argument you had with your spouse. As the day progresses, as you get closer to, say, 3 o', clock, you start to think, oh, man, when I get home, I'm going to say this. And then she's probably going to say this, or he's probably going to say that. So I'm going to say this. And so we start having these mental gymnastics as the day progresses of what we're going to save for our reentry back to the home. And so if you're winning at home, you can give your best at work because you could be focused. You don't need to think about what is my spouse thinking or doing right now. You insane? With your kids. If you've got a healthy relationship with your kids, you don't need to worry about rebellious activity. You don't need to worry about them lying or being mischievous or, you know, what are they shenanigans are they up to? Because you've been winning home first, you've been investing in them, you know the, you know, you know who their best friends are, you know who they're dating, you've encouraged them. Maybe they are doing their own quiet time and they're journaling. You know where their heart is at. And you can go to work, give it your best because, you know, home is in great condition.

That's good. And just to be clear, even if winning at home first didn't make us win more at work, it wouldn't matter, because God has called us to excellence in all things, period. Full stop. That's it, right? Not the achievement of it, but the pursuit of excellently stewarding these spouses, these kids that he's put under our care, and the work he has given our hands to do. All right, so what does it look like practically to win at home first? I know you wrote a whole book about this, right? So maybe just give us two or three thoughts of what this looks like in practice here in 2024. Corey.

Yeah, absolutely. Matthew 6:33 is, Seek first the kingdom, and all the rest of these will be unto you. And that's at the end of a verse of numerous verses on anxiety and worry and so much for us to win at home first. And how. The book is in four parts. The first part's you. The second part is marriage. Third part's parenting, and the fourth part is work, which is really, I think, how the flow of our life should be. We have got to take care of ourselves first before we can be incredible spouses, parents, leaders at work. We have got to be in a good spot. And so how to get practical is, you know, where are you at individually? Are you getting your quiet time? Are you journaling? Are you in prayer? Are you reading scripture? And so what does that look like in your life and being honest about it. There's a lot of times in my life and I will even talk to leaders is like, stop all. Listen all the podcasts. I know we're on a podcast right now, but there's times not to listen to podcasts. There's times not to be listening to radio in the car. Just drive in silence and use that time to pray.

Yeah. This is Descent from the kingdom of noise and redeeming your time 100. Yeah. If you're not doing that, turn this podcast off now.

Yes. Yeah. And then, you know, you talk about and redeeming your time and let others curate your news for you.

Yes.

That's something I have been doing and encourage others to do is like turn off the news. We don't. And the other thing, turn off all notifications on your phone. I know you do that as well. But for those listeners, it's just like, we do not need to know Fox or CNN breaking news. We don't need to know our stock went up or down slightly. Unless you're a wealth manager, you don't need to know all those components. And so it's turn off a lot of that noise. And so I think that's a big piece. And. And so are you taking care of yourself? How are you doing in the book? We give a. I give a framework for five capitals, which was taught to me where in these five catapults, if you live them in the right order, it's a life to the full. The first is spiritual, then relational, third is physical, fourth is intellectual, and the fifth is financial. And it's a great framework to think through of decision making, of daily activity, of goal planning. It's got all kinds of different benefits from it, but that's all in that you part of the book where it's making sure that you are in a good spot. Because if you're not, you, you can't lead others. I mean, we all know what it's like when we get our capitals, those five capitals in the wrong order. Even if you don't know what they were. If we get them in the wrong order, we're too worried about money or physically, we're too tired. We know what those days are like when we lay our head on the pillow at night and we're just, we're exhausted. It just didn't feel like a good day. However, if we get those capitals in right order, we've had our quiet time, we've had time to pray, we've script, you know, done our scripture, We've had good time with friends. We got to work out, man. We, when we lay our head down the pill, we're like, that was a good day. That's good stuff.

Yeah, that's good. You quoted this coach of yours in the book as saying, I love this quote. You said you have to know yourself so you can forget yourself, so that you can freely give yourself. End quote. And I think that's the per. If I think we get too hung up on spiritual disciplines a lot. I love John Ortberg once said, he said, hey, listen, if a spiritual discipline isn't making you more like Christ, isn't putting you in a position to more freely give yourself to others, then drop the spiritual discipline. Because that's the point of the spiritual discipline. Right? And that's what you're saying is, hey, we got to know ourselves, right? We got to be immersed in the Word and who Christ says we are, who God says that we are, so that we can freely give ourselves to our spouses, to our kids and to the work. Is that what you're saying by quoting your coach there?

Absolutely. Yep. I mean, that's, that's, you know, fantastic. I mean, I even love that spiritual discipline, as you're talking, is make me think. I mean, there, there's times we've all just read scripture, we've all just done the morning devotion to check the box. And it's really finding the spiritual rhythm that moves it from head to heart. Like where you're really wanting. Do you look forward to your morning routine because you're growing in intimacy with God and for the listener and even reminder myself those times, if I'm not feeling that I need to find a new way to read scripture or do it differently. And that's really what it's all about is because if I'm in a good spot spiritually, mentally, physically, then I can go lead others. I can do well. But we all know, it's like when we stayed up too late watching a movie or a football game, or had that extra drink we shouldn't have, or whatever the case may be for the listener, when we don't lead ourselves, well, we can't go lead others because we're tired. We feel defeated. The self limiting beliefs are louder than Normal. And so that's why we got to take care of ourselves so that we can go lead others.

Where does this differ from the worldly wisdom that I hate that's so much about self care? What's the demarcation point here?

Yeah, I think the big demarcation in that at least, you know, for me, is I've got to go to God, to my Creator to make sure that the power is not within me. I mean, it's not within me to go do that. And so I'm not going to pull anything out. I mean, I need to make sure I'm going to God for that. And I'm seeking Him first in my morning routine and throughout the day, right. As Paul talks about never cease praying. So I want to make sure I'm doing that and basically letting him lead me and telling him lead me, God, as opposed to sometimes this, you know, this kind of new world discussion is kind of do whatever you want, you know, you be you. No, we can't just go do that. It's, it's, it's follow letting God lead us and allowing us to basically just submit to Him. Part of that is taking care of ourselves. Right? We can't do anything for anybody if we're dead. It's really just, you know, who you put in first. I think some of this self care, you put yourself first. And this, if we do it the way, you know, God calls us, we're putting God first.

Yeah, no, I think that's good. I think Christian self care differs from the world in at least two ways. One, it does start with God, as you said. And number two, self isn't the end. The purpose of self care isn't for more focus on self. It's for more focus on service in the model of Christ.

Right.

It's for the glory of God and the good of others. It's not ultimately for me and stay in my own place. It's to get back to the good works that God prepared in advance for us to do. Hey, in your book you talk about tons of different practical things to help us win at home first. And you're borrowing a lot of stuff from corporate America and applying it to the home, to being more intentional at home. I'm really curious as you know, in redeeming your time, I advocate for budgeting time to work on all the projects you've committed to professionally. Do you personally also budget time to work, quote unquote, on your family, end quote, projects related to leading your family?

Well, yeah, budgeting time and then Also, just kind of going back to an earlier part of our conversation. KPIs at work. We don't have KPIs at home. Well, I actually do. I try to put some KPIs in there, which goes into budgeting time as well, that I'm thinking about items and for some examples is Holly and I. Holly's my wife. Two dates a month. I want to make sure we're doing two dates a month because if we don't do that, we can drift and become roommates. And so for us, it's two dates. We've been doing that well, quite honestly, really, ever since I came cleaning my affair. That was just part of what we needed to do to make sure we were getting. We were connected. I also want to make sure I have one on one dates with my kids, whether it's ice cream or it's coffee. So I'm tracking that as well. The other thing, Jordan, is one on one overnights. And yes, we do a family vacation, which is cool, but man, these one on one overnights with not only my wife, but also when I do with each of the kids. So cool and powerful.

I like that a lot. I think that's super helpful. Hey, you've listened to the show before. You know, we wrap up with the same three questions every time. Number one, which books do you find yourself gifting most frequently to others other than, of course, course, Rise and Go and win at Home first.

I'm not just saying. I told you this to your face in Tampa.

You did.

I do. I do give the word before work. It's part of my morning routine. I think I told you some of that when we saw each other. But. But the books that I love right now that I'm sharing a lot with clients. Two books, the Road Less Stupid.

So good.

Yes. And mind shift, Irwin McManus's new book.

It's good. Hey, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?

I think you go to Irwin McManus, get him on and talk about that. Exactly.

Not a bad idea.

And just talk about that book, Mind Shift. But also, why was he strategic and trying to go for a new audience?

Yeah, it's good. I like that.

It's not like the existing Christians have it all figured out.

That's right. Well, listen, God's common grace, God's wisdom is in the believer and the unbeliever. Hey, before we sign off, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians. Very diverse. Vocationally, what they share is a deep love of Jesus and a desire to do work that glorifies God and does good for others. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we hang up?

That you are loved. And then you get new mercies every morning. Lamentations 322 through 23. I know for myself and just others is, you know, they just. They get in an argument, they yelled at their kid for brushing their teeth, taking too long to brush their teeth. They get in a fight with their spouse, or maybe they didn't show up their best to a client, and therefore they. They think they suck and they don't think they can bring their best today that God has done with them, and they're discouraged. And the devil loves that. The devil loves when we beat ourselves up and we operate less than. But I think for all the listeners, it's just no, man. God loves you where you're at. You get new mercies every day, and so go get them. Love your spouse well. Lead your kids well. Who cares what you did a month ago or a year ago in that regard? Don't beat yourself up. That's the devil's game. But God's game is his new mercies every day. So, yeah, just go get them.

It's good, bro. I want to commend you for the terrific work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us of what it looks like for the gospel to free us from the work beneath our work, freeing us to do the hard work of winning at home. And thank you for reminding us of the power of boasting in our weaknesses in a way that brings greater glory to God's grand story that he's writing for the entire world. Friends, I highly recommend Corey's great book when at Home. First go pick it up wherever books are sold. Corey, brother, thank you Hanging for hanging out with us today. Appreciate your time, brother.

And thank you, Jordan, and thank you for the work you do. I'm learning a lot from you. I've read every book of yours except for the new one. Darn it, that's coming. I can't wait.

It's coming. Dropping January 30th, right before this podcast drops. A couple. Couple weeks before this podcast drops, it'll be in your hands. Yes.

Awesome. But no, thank you for your work and just showing us. Yeah. How to live out the gospel.

Hey, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. If you've got somebody you'd love to hear on this podcast, even if that somebody is you. I want to hear about it@jordanrayner.com contact thank you guys so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm and Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.