Daniel Darling (Author of The Characters of Christmas)

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Janitors, and food writers.

That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Daniel Darling, author of the Characters of Christmas, who's joining me for a very special Christmas Day episode of the podcast where we are diving deep into. Into the vocations of the characters of Christmas and what they can teach us about our own work today. Specifically, Daniel and I talked about how Jesus's earthly vocation assigns eternal meaning to your quote unquote, non spiritual work. We talked about what the shepherds can teach us about how to lead well in our work today. And I also shared the number one book recommendation that I have. If you are facing insecurity in the.

Workplace, and let's face it, who doesn't.

Experience that from time to time? So I know it's Christmas Day.

You get a lot going on.

If you miss this on Christmas Day, no worries. But don't miss this episode with my friend, Daniel Darling.

Daniel Darling, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Well, thanks for having me, Jordan. I really appreciate it and just. Just grateful for the work that you do through the podcast and through your ministry.

Yeah, thanks, man. I've told you this before via emails, and when I was on your show a while back, I loved your books, in particular the characters of Easter and the characters of Christmas.

And a few years ago, I was.

Writing this devotional series, there was a very bad Chevy Chase pun called Christmas Vocations.

I like that a lot.

Is that good?

It's. It's good. I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't think people got it. We'll see.

But on today's episode, I want to do something very simple or similar to what I did in that devotional series. I want to take a look at.

Some of the characters of Christmas, the.

Vocations of these characters, and see if there's anything we can learn to inform.

Our own work today. You up for it?

I am totally up for it.

You're here for it, and we're dropping on Christmas Day. This is perfect. All right.

I'm thrilled about it. I love Christmas and I do.

Do you really? What's your favorite Christmas tradition?

Man, there's so many. I mean, I just. I love the fact that Christmas is like six weeks, really.

It really is.

I don't think it could start too soon. I love listening to Christmas music as soon as we can. And I love all of it. The candy, the trees, going around, seeing the lights, like going to concerts, Christmas concerts, obviously, the Christian Theme of Christmas, going to Christmas Eve really is my favorite tradition. I love Christmas Eve. I've been doing it since I was a kid. Has so much meaning for me.

So I remember, I think it was.

In the introduction of Tim Keller's Christmas book called Hidden Christmas, which I loved. Oh, so good. So good. And really short so you could read in one sitting. But I remember him talking about just the beauty of the whole world celebrating Christ's birth. Whether or not that's explicit or not, we're all rallying around this one date in time. It's beautiful.

Yeah.

I'm not a Christmas music guy. I do love Advent calendars. We do this. This is chocolate Advent calendar we get every year that tells the nativity story from Luke, but we've added to it this year. I'm very pumped. A Star Wars Lego Advent calendar.

That's pretty cool.

Well, you get a different little figure. Yeah, I'm super excited about it. We're recording this in October. Who knows if it's going to be any good? All right, let's start our talk of Christmas vocations with Christ himself. Of course, we know that Jesus is born to the home of a carpenter or some translation stay, say a stone.

Mason named Joseph and Daniel. Correct if I'm wrong, but in Jesus's days, that meant that Jesus was more.

Or less bound to grow up in the vocation of his father.

Is that right?

His earthly father?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, you got to think of them as being not destitute, the poorest of the poor, but probably working class. There wasn't much middle class in those days, but probably living paycheck to paycheck, but a decent living. And this carpenter would be someone who would. Yeah. Not just someone who does wood carpentry and builds furniture or puts walls up in houses like we think of today. I actually worked as a. With a carpenter when I was in college, but, you know, kind of a. A craftsman, a handyman. So mate would make furniture. Would do. Yeah. Stonemason would carve, just not do wood stuff, but like stuff out of stone. And probably everyone in his community knew who he was. Right. Because of that.

Yeah. That's interesting. And because it probably. Yeah. Wasn't the largest town.

Right. That's right, yeah. Yeah, well. And instead, you know, we get ahead of ourselves. Bible describes Joseph as a righteous man. And so if he's righteous in all his dealings, probably a fair person who charged a fair wage and did good work.

That's good.

All right.

So this has always been an interesting question. For me to dwell on. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about. But I'm curious to get your take on this. Like God could have chosen for Jesus to grow up in anybody's home. He could have chosen for Jesus to grow up around any vocation. What do you make of this decision for Jesus to grow up in the home of a small business owner and tradesman named Joseph?

Well, I think there's a lot we could think about that the fact that Jesus grew up in a lower class home with people who lived close to the ground, who worked with their hands. The Bible makes a note of him being a carpenter. And, you know, it's an important part of the story. I think it tells us a few things, both symbolic and just reality. I think first it tells us that God cares about the working man and woman and he cares about the work we do. I think if you go back to creation, that our work is part of subduing the earth. It's part of creation. You've written a lot about this, Jordan. But I think God doesn't just care about our work in terms of as a means to an end, to make money or to provide, which are all important, or help missions or whatever, but the actual work, because we're taking the raw materials of creation and making things. And Joseph was a maker, he was a builder. I think he's identifying with the average. A lot of people in our world are sort of forgotten, but they make our world run, they make our houses run and our businesses and our cars. And we sort of don't see them until we need something. But I also think there's symbolism here and that Jesus is a builder, right? Like he's building in his first advent. He came to recreate what sin had destroyed, to come to rebuild. He'd come to make something. And I think there's no, I don't think there's a coincidence that this is why God chose Joseph to be a carpenter. Obviously he was in the line of the Messiah. He was in the line of the right family line from David. But also the fact that he had this kind of vocation. It wasn't in the palace with the kings. It wasn't pomp and circumstance. It was a common carpenter. And I think that says a lot.

Yeah, it's really, really good. I love the symbolism of the building. I also love that. Yeah, it was this common vocation. It wasn't in the palace, it wasn't in the temple. Right. I.

Because, because listen, I've written about this.

Before, but it was perfectly within God's power for Jesus to grow up in the home of a. In a priestly household, right? Like John the Baptist, where he would spend most of his Monday through Fridays, if you will. Obviously I'm not talking exact devoted to prayer, right.

He could have chosen for Jesus to grow up in the home like Apo the apostle Paul in the home of a Pharisee, right, where he would spend hours upon end studying the Scriptures.

But instead, Jesus was placed in the home of a carpenter where he would spend most of his time making things, creating things, like most of us today.

And on the surface, I think, I think that truth comes off as shocking to people. But I would argue it's probably the.

Least surprising thing of the entire Christmas.

Narrative, right, because the work of Jesus.

Earthly father was similar, although of course.

Distinct from the work of Jesus heavenly father. Right in the, in the beginning, God created and he created with his words in Genesis 1. But in Genesis 2, we see him creating with his hands by digging a garden in the east. And I just think it's a beautiful.

Reminder that work is not beneath the God of the Bible. Amen.

No, Jesus came. You know, work is not a product of the curse. Work is not a punishment. Work is a gift from God to we work in the image of a working God. Jesus would say that I'm always working, my father's always working. Jesus came, if anything, to redeem our work, that in the kingdom of God he's redeeming it. And actually when he comes again and we're in the new Jerusalem, we're going to be working, but we won't have to deal with the thorns and the thistles that obstruct our work. And I think what we can say too about Jesus that's so interesting is that he comes into the home of a working class family with little agency and power in their community. Like, if you and I were scripting this story, if Hollywood was scripting the story, we would not have chosen this family. We just wouldn't have. And I think it's significant, Jordan, that Jesus, along with his father, likely made things like Joseph taught him to make things. And there were probably people in that community that had furniture or had something that Jesus had helped create, which is really fascinating to think that the one who the Bible says created the heavens and earth, he created humans with the ability to create, was also as the second Adam, creating and subduing the earth.

It's really good. It's really, really good. I love it. All right, so we're getting ahead of ourselves in the narrative a little bit.

Right.

But here in the manger in Bethlehem, Jesus, of course, had no vocation. Right before he was a carpenter, he had no work. I love how JI Packer articulates this. He says he's marveling at the idea that, quote, the Almighty appeared on earth as a helpless human baby, unable to do more than lie and stare and wriggle and make noises, needing to be fed and changed and taught to talk like any other child. End quote.

Which really is mind boggling. Right, like so.

I would love to hear you talk, Daniel, about what?

What does it mean for our work.

Today that Jesus himself relied on the work of human hands during his time on earth, even though he certainly did not have to?

Well, it, it tells us a lot of things. Just think of that holy mystery of that night Jesus was born, that the one who created the heavens and earth, who breathed life into human beings, is now dependent and reliant on human beings, dependent on his creation. But I also think we miss this a lot, Jordan, with Christmas, Jesus didn't come. God didn't send Jesus as a disembodied spirit. Jesus came as a full human being, an embodied human being. He is a human being. And sometimes we say Jesus was a human, he still is a human being. He's risen from the dead and he came as a full, embodied human being. Which means that this is God saying that human bodies are good. And God came to redeem our human bodies, to redeem our humanity from the decay of sin. And also he's telling us that work is good, that working with our hands, the common, everyday things we do in our lives, whatever your vocation is, whether you're someone who builds things or makes things, fixes things, or if you fill out spreadsheets, or if you teach kids or whatever it is that God has called you to do, that the work itself matters and the work itself is part of obeying God and living in his kingdom. Of course, as a Christian, we do it, our motivations do it for the glory of God. But this is Jesus. Birth tells us something about that. It tells us that it's, you know, sometimes as Christians, we sort of over spiritualize and say, you know, nothing here matters. The only thing that matters is sort of the, the spiritual and the, and the soul. But we're bodies and souls, right? We're not just bodies. We don't want to just be materialist. We're all, all we worship is what is here and present. We can touch. But we also don't want to Go the other way and be sort of neo Gnostic where it's like, none of this stuff matters and you think of like other religions where everything's spiritual and you don't deal with the material. We're both. And Jesus came to redeem both.

That's exactly right. I think this picture of. Yeah, just being reliant on Mary to change cloth diapers and feed Jesus is.

This beautiful picture, I think, of a.

Truth we see all throughout the Bible.

That while God is perfectly capable, capable.

Of working in this world unilaterally, more.

Often than not he chooses to work.

With and through his image bearers, you and me. Right.

He doesn't need us, but he wants.

To work in and through us to accomplish his purposes on earth as it is in heaven. Which is mind boggling and I think on full display as we look at this manger scene in Luke 2.

It really does. And I think what we should learn from Christmas is Christmas is both hopeful and joyful. But it's also, we can bring our sorrows and our sadness to Christmas because Christmas acknowledges the reality, the broken reality of our world. And the hope and the message of Christmas is that Christ has come to redeem the world, to restore the world, to fix the things that are broken. So the things in your job that frustrate you, the things in your life that frustrate you, the things in the world that are upside down, whether it's wars and famine and strife, God has come to redeem what is broken and fix and make new. Make it new. So that even if in your job, because I know we talk a lot of working people who listen to this, you know, you feel somewhat fulfilled because it's. Let's say you're in a job that you really love and you really enjoy, you really feel like you're doing what God's called you to do. But there's always problems, there's always obstacles. There's always like parts of it that will never be totally fixed. But Christ came to redeem those things and that's the future we can look forward to. I think that's the message that Christmas brings to us. Not. Not sort of Pollyanna, but like actual reality. Because he came as a human being, because he came to a carpenter, because he built things. It shows us how much God loves his creation and loves human beings who. Who create and make things. Yeah.

There's so much bad theology in Christmas music and Christmas hymns. But one thing that I think we.

Get right is Jesus did come to.

Make God's blessings flow. Far as the curse is found, Jesus did not just come to redeem my soul. He came to redeem all things, to reconcile to himself all things, including the material world that you and work with.

And the work itself. See Isaiah 65.

And that is enormous implications for how we think about our work. All right, hey, I want to move on to this chapter in your book where you dedicated this whole chapter actually to King Herod and another chapter to.

The three kings of Orient Are.

I've always wondered, who the heck are the Magi? Daniel, can you help us understand this?

So there's a lot of speculation through church history of who they are, and we get the three from the three gifts, but it's likely that it was a bigger entourage of kings. You don't have to correct your aunt about that. If you like, you could still.

Don't be that guy.

Three kings. Don't be that guy.

Don't be that guy. At Christmas dinner tonight. Yeah.

Yes, we know they. They came later. It's okay. You can have them at your city set. But it's really interesting. There's a lot of speculation. Probably came from the East. Some people have. Have wondered if. How do they learn about the Messiah? Could it be that they came from the same area where Daniel was centuries before in the east, as an. As an exile and as a wise man who. These were passed down, these stories, and they were searching and finding. It does tell us a number of things. The one thing it tells us is that people who genuinely search for Jesus will find him. And they had an earnest search. Their. Their honest, earnest search. What is truth, what is real? And God. What's fascinating Jordan, to me about the. The wise men is that God leveraged the entire universe to bring them to his son. Think about it. He leveraged the solar system, the stars, dreams, and all these things to bring them to his son. This is how much God, the hound of Heaven, seeks after people who are seeking him. If you are seeking truth in an earnest way, God will make sure that you find your way to Jesus. I think that's one of the most powerful parts of this, the story.

That's really good. I've never thought about that. That's beautiful.

All right, so we have these two.

Sets of kings, really, Right? We already mentioned Herod, we mentioned the Magi, and they have these two totally different responses to the newborn king, Jesus Christ, Right? Like Herod wants to murder Jesus because of course, he senses a. A threat to his vocational power. Although that might be oversimplifying things.

But the magi have this opposite response.

They fall down in total worship. And I think the question for me, the question for our listeners is, how do you and I respond to this newborn king? If you're listening to this podcast, you're certainly not responding like Herod did. Right?

But I'm not 100% sure, if I'm.

Honest, Daniel, that I always respond like the magi in total worship.

I. I know my temptation, I think.

Probably the temptation of a lot of.

Listeners is, yeah, profess faith in Christ.

But not make him the Lord of every single area of our lives. Right?

But if he's king, man, I can't.

Be on the throne anymore.

He has to be king and not consultant. So as you look at your own life, Daniel, do you struggle with this? Like, what are some signs for you personally that you're treating Jesus as more.

Of a consultant in your work rather than the King of kings that deserves your obedience in every square inch of how you spend your time and do your work?

That's a great question. And I think for us in the modern era, it's easy for us to get so sort of busy. And I. I think be having a full life is good. So I'm not someone who thinks we should never be busy.

Like, yeah, I think Jesus had a full life.

Having a full life, like with, with. We have our kids and we have million projects and teaching and work, and it's all meaningful, good work. But we can sometimes see Jesus, as you said, as a consultant or as an accessory to our dreams instead of being in constant prayer and dialogue with him about, is he master of my life? And we really know that, or what. What's one area of our life we don't want him to touch. So if you think about King Herod, there's a couple ways to think about King Herod. One is a sort of macro level that if you notice, Jordan, every story we tell about Christmas, and I love all of them. I love all the Christmas movies. One of our traditions to watch, like, all the, like 10 or 12 of the Christmas movies, and we have to, like, plan it out in our family. There's always a villain. There's always a villain, whether it's Mr. Potter, whether it's the Grinch. Well, even this lame Hallmark movies I watch with my wife, they have a villain, you know, like. And that stems, I think, with the original Christmas story has Herod, who's the villain? He's the monster of Christmas. He's trying to kill Jesus. But that is just part of this long, epic battle that's predicted in Genesis 3 that there'd be the clash between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. And it's coming to a forehearing Herod, just one more in that long line. But also Herod represents, like you said, us, where temptation is that Jesus enters our lives and he inconveniences it. Jesus comes, he's born, and there's an announcement of a king. And this is uncomfortable for Herod because it's going to threaten. He feels his kingship, his hold on power. He was a really illegitimate king of Israel. He wasn't in the right family line. He was put there by Rome. He wasn't very well liked. He was a brutal king. He built a lot of really cool things. But he also was a brutal king. Killed his own family members to hold on to power. You know what I'm saying? An insecure leader that just did whatever he could to hang on to power in this baby. It seems ridiculous if you step back and say, wait a minute, a baby born to a peasant couple in a village a few miles from you is a threat to your leadership. I mean, what's wrong with this guy? But that's how he saw it. But we also know that Jesus disrupts our lives. He disrupts our lives. And even at Christmas, he can make us uncomfortable. Maybe we want to have this wonderful Christmas with all these people and he allows circumstances in our lives that disrupt us. Or Jesus is making demands of us with our time and our money and our. The way we order our families that are inconvenient, hard, and we have to make sacrifices. And Jesus, sometimes we. We recoil at Jesus. We become enemies of Jesus because he. We want him to be in our lives, but not lord over everything. And I think that's what Herod represents.

Yeah, I think so too. What's one of those inconveniences that you've had to recognizing and cave to in obedience to Jesus, let's say, in the last year?

Well, I think for me, in this season of our lives, we have. We're in a full season. Jordan I have four teenagers, and my oldest is in college. She's almost 20. But we have four teenagers and love my kids. And something you have to constantly tell yourself is that the interruptions are not interruptions. They're actually part of God's. What God's doing. And so it can easily become, I got my day planned, this comes up, or I have to go do this or go do that and sort of getting out of our schedule or getting out of Our rhythm. That can be a way that God is saying, okay, I want you to surrender, have a plan. Like, we should plan our lives, but hold it loosely because God's going to disrupt it. In the last few years, we've had some disruptions. We've moved, We've had a couple unfortunate car accidents. I lost my mom a couple years ago. And all these things are sort of disruption. But there are also opportunities for Jesus to come into our lives and for us to. I think as a father you might understand this. The more responsibility you have, the more there's a sense that I can't do this myself. I need the Lord. I need to abide in Him. You know, we, I think guys especially have a real strong sense of self reliance. Like, I can take care of this. I got this. And there's times God puts you at the end of yourself and you say, no, I can't do this. I just can't. I need the Lord.

Yeah, I feel that way in the work of parenthood, but I also feel like that with the work I do in this office, as momentum continues to build around the stuff I'm doing and impact continues to grow, there is a weight to that. There's a weightiness and a recognition that I can't steward this in my own strength.

And to me, you know, there's some.

Thorns of thistles push it back against.

That, that I see as a blessing.

It's part of the. Part of the blessing of the curse, if I can say that.

Because when I recognize that I can't.

Do it on my own, it drives me to my knees, it drives me to reliance on the Lord, it drives me to Jesus, not just as consultant, but truly as king, right?

Because I recognize that I need to.

Be submitting to him in all things. Because if I'm not man, none of this is gonna have any sort of eternal significance. Does that make any sense at all, Daniel?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And a state of dependence. I think Henry Blackaby said it, that God purposely puts things in our lives or calls us to things that are too big for us so that we're forced to depend on Him. And constantly being away from our self sufficiency into dependence on the Lord. But it actually can be really sweet. And I think the older we get, at least for me, you have less inhibition about admitting that you need the Lord. You pray more. Some of it's by necessity because you have children and you have responsibilities and you're like, okay, Lord, I need your help here. But Also, and I think you hit it, Jordan, Sometimes it's in the area that we're most gifted, like in the area of gifting. When things are flowing and we're doing work we love, it's hard to just not let that consume us and be our whole lives. Right. You know, if you have a job that you hate, it's pretty easy to say, I'm going to cut out after a certain time and live for the weekend. But if it's a job you really enjoy and you're building stuff and God made us to build things and make things, it's easy to get our ordering out of, out of line to where that becomes everything instead of subordinated under, under the kingdom of God.

Yeah, it's really good. Hey, when you look at your book, the Characters of Christmas, which of these characters do you think has the most to teach us about our own work today?

That's a great question. I love talking about the shepherds and if I could talk about the shepherds for a moment.

Yes, I was hoping you were going to say that.

I loved writing this chapter. I loved writing this whole book, honestly, because I just love Christmas. But I love the shepherds. And I think it's not a coincidence. I think it's intentional. In fact, I know it is. That when God was scripting the story of the incarnation of the Son of God, when we scripting the story of how he would renew and redeem the world from eternity past, that he used simple shepherds. And you think about the shepherds, the first appearance, the first announcement of Jesus birth did not come via press release, press conference, website, tv, network, cable news, whatever the version of those were in those days didn't come to Rome or Herod's palace. It came to a simple shepherd's field outside a backwater town, Bethlehem. Why shepherds? I think there's a few reasons he chose shepherds. One, because if you think about the symbolism, all through the symbolism of the Passover lamb, the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is that lamb and shepherds were caring for Passover lambs, for the symbolism in terms of the atonement and what Jesus would represent. I also think he chose shepherds because they were earthy, they were tough people, they were real. They wouldn't have any pretension. He knew he could trust them. He gave them the news and they went immediately there and saw Jesus and told everybody. But there's a third reason too. The dominant metaphor for leadership in scripture is shepherding. You go through the whole Bible from the Old Testament all the way to the new. What kind of leader, what kind of king would this new king be? He wouldn't be like King Herod, a tyrant. He wouldn't be like Caesar, authoritarian. Jesus would be a shepherd. And you see through the Old Testament, God rebuked bad shepherds who didn't care for their sheep. And so God is saying that Jesus is the good shepherd. Jesus would say later in John, I'm the good shepherd. I lay my life down for the sheep. I think we have a lot to learn from that. I think, number one, to see Jesus as our good shepherd. What kind of king is Jesus? What kind of king is this baby? Yes, he's the king of the world, but he also is a shepherd who is close to us, who knows every sheep by his name. If you are a Christian, Jesus knows your name, you know him and you're known by him. But also as a model for what kind of leadership? What does Christian leadership look like? Shepherding? It doesn't mean weakness. It just means sacrificial care and leadership for the people that God has put under you. So I love talking about shepherds. I think when it comes to our work, Jordan, whatever area of responsibility had, we have staff that we have to lead or organizations we have to lead, there's a kind of shepherding is a kind of mix of intentionality and purpose and obviously not passivity, but a proper kind of aggressiveness, but then also a gentleness, a care for the people under us, not losing any of our sheep, knowing them by name and leading people to a place. A shepherd leads his sheep to water. He leads them to good pastures. He doesn't drive them, but he leads them. I think it's a really beautiful picture and I don't think we should miss it.

No, I think it's really good. I love that picture of seeing ourselves as leaders, as shepherds, as opposed to. I'm trying to think what the converse of this would be. Right. It's almost like a czar or a king. Right? That is ruling with fear, with directive. And directive is important. You get what I'm saying? But it's. But it's more of a stewardship and a care and a gentler and lowlier way of leading that is about the care of the flock first and foremost. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think in my view, Jordan, I'm curious your opinion on this. Working with different leaders who have worked for and having led myself, I've come to realize one of the most important things about leadership is sort of personal security, which, underneath that, I think is emotional quotient and all that. But this personal security that I know who I am in Christ, I know God, and I'm known by God. I'm not trying to prove myself. I'm comfortable in my own skin. Not cocky, not arrogant, but I know who I am because I think leaders, if they're not careful, will lead out of their insecurities. Right. I've worked for leaders who couldn't forget, had a grudge they held on for 25 years. And they're always trying to prove themselves or they're trying to prove that they're this and they're not that. And insecurity will do two things. A leader will either be a tyrant because they want to control everything, or they'll be the opposite. Be like King Saul, and they'll shrink back. And whenever we need you to step up, we need you to rally the team. We need you to make a decision. They're hiding because they're worried about all that. A healthy leader tends to his soul, tends to her soul, understands who they are in Christ and can lead.

Well, no, I think that's 100. Right? It's why I point to Tim Keller's tiny little book, the Freedom of Self Forgetfulness as one of the most important books for any Christian leader to read.

Because until it's not about.

It's not about thinking about myself less, it's not about thinking about others more. It's a bit. It is about thinking about myself.

Like it's. But it's not negative self esteem, Right? It is the freedom of self forgetfulness. I don't have to worry about what people think about me as I walk in the room. I'm not judging myself because God has already judged me.

It's what Paul's saying in First Corinthians.

I don't judge myself.

I don't care what you think about me.

Because God has already deemed me an.

Adopted child of God. And that is the place of my. That's right, security.

And so I can be secure in success or defeat. And I don't have to get anything.

From you as I walk in the room.

Because that's what so many people are.

Doing at work, right? They walk in the room and they're.

Grandstanding and name dropping because they need.

To get something from all of those things.

But if I've been called a child.

Of God by the King of the universe, I don't need anything from anybody.

That's right. And then you know how to filter out And I've written about this a few times. But look, if you're a leader of consequence 21st century, you're going to. You're going to have critics, you're probably going to have online critics. You're probably going to have people who you think on your team are not. And there's gonna be good faith critics and bad faith critics. There's good faith folks who are like, you know, I should listen to that. They have something. They care about me. They're for me. There's gonna be a lot of sort of. I think of Nehemiah with Sandball and Tobiah, where, you know, they're just over there chirping and trying. And he's like, look, I don't have time for this. I have to build something. You know, he didn't let those critics live in his head. Because what I've seen happen is an insecure leader will constantly let these people live in their head, and that's all they talk about. I'm nervous, Jordan, when I talk to a leader or someone who every conversation brings up some critic. Did you hear what this guy said online about me? Did you hear what, like, they just can't, and it drives everything they do. And now when I, if I'm on a search committee or if I'm helping interviews, like, I ask all the, all the questions. But I also want to say, like, what are you trying to prove? Do you have any outstanding grudges? You haven't forgiven? Those kinds of things? Because that will manifest in ways we don't realize. Like, the fallout of insecure leadership is really damaging even in Christian circles, even with otherwise good people.

So for sure, it's really good. Hey, one follow up on the shepherds. I could be totally wrong here, of course.

One of the reasons why I think.

God may have chosen to tell the shepherds first, right, Tell them the good news that a savior had been born.

Was because all throughout history, it has.

Been through mere Christians working as shepherds, working as carpenters, working as mothers and.

Entrepreneurs, et cetera, and not religious professionals.

That the gospel has spread the most. What do you think about that?

I am so glad you said that. And I'm saying this, Jordan, as someone who has always worked for Christian organization, Christian 501c3, I don't feel ashamed about that. This is my calling. But people like me are in a small bubble, you know, and I'm glad we have. You know, I had a seminary where we trained people to go into ministry, and I think you have to have ministry Professionals, just like a hospital has to have trained doctors. Right? But you're so right. Most of the body of Christ on heaven and earth are everyday people working in the marketplace, nine to five people who are plying their trade in the marketplace. And you're exactly right. Jesus came to the ordinary people who were doing everyday work with their hands and with their. This is the kind of people. And he's. And he's telling us by the people he visited, whether it's Mary and Joseph, peasant couple with no power, no agency, lowly shepherds, outsiders like the wise men that he was saying, this is the kind of kingdom I'm building. It's different than the kingdoms you're used to. And I try to tell ministry professionals this, that when I pastored, I tried to go out to lunch and go to, like, all the people who work. Like, what is your job? Like, what are your struggles? Like, we're preaching to people in the marketplace who are taking their Christianity into the marketplace. And this is most of the body. Chris. My dad's a retired plumber and was a great, faithful churchman. He still is. I sometimes felt, growing up, that because he applied his skills in the marketplace, he's sort of on the JV team, that he wasn't a pastor missionary. So he's like, oh, well, that's good. You can at least tithe or whatever, you know. And instead of saying, no, this is where most people are and where God has called most people to be, this is kind of where the kingdom of God is.

And this is how the kingdom of God spreads. If not, why tell the shepherds first?

Right? That's right.

Right. Like, it just makes no sen. Because this is how it's always spread. And, man, that's a pretty good charge for us to wrap up on that. We mere Christians working outside the four walls of the church are called to herald the good news that Christ is born today. All right, Daniel, four questions. We round out every episode with number one, what job would you love for God to give you on the new earth when we finally see Isaiah 65 realized?

Man, that's a great question. And that's a hard question to think about. I mean, first of all, I love writing. I love putting words together. I love being a creative, and I've always been that. That person. Love being a creative in another life. You ever see the people that make furniture and just how incredible it is, like, with woodcraft? And I was like, man, like Ron.

Swanson and Parks and Rec.

Yeah, except good, good furniture, you know, like. Like, just really good craftsmanship or maybe like a baseball player. I don't know. But. But those are some things.

Those are killer answers. I love it. All right, hey, if we open up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to people?

Man, my top books. That's such a hard one. But I would say the book I've probably given away more has been probably Tim Keller's book, A Reason for God, Apologetic for Christianity. A lot of Keller's books, his book. Every good endeavor on work is so good. I think J. Ed Packer's book, Knowing God, the hiding place, Corrie 10 boom. There's probably about 20 more if we had endless time.

I just bought.

It's new.

It's a.

It's a graphic novel of the Hiding Place by Corrie 10 boom for young readers. My daughter loved it. My daughter's 10. She absolutely loved it. Yeah, it was really good.

Hey, Daniel, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how.

The gospel influences the work that mere Christians do in the world? Ideally, not a pastor or religious professional.

Here's what's funny, Jordan. I've never been a businessman, but I am fascinated by entrepreneurs and businessmen that you know how there's people, Jordan, that maybe this is you who can just see around the corner. And I've been around these folks who could just like. Like you think of the most successful businesses and like someone thought of this and had the foresight to see this business model and this doing well around there. So I'm always fascinated. Like, I listened to a podcast of we have over here, Dutch Bros. A little coffee thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I listened to a podcast of how it got started. It's like these three brothers and they took a chance and they did it in Portland. It's like, I love that stuff. So those kinds of things, like people with entrepreneurial minds, inventors, those kinds of folks.

We had tons of entrepreneurs on the podcast, but we're always looking for more. That's good.

Like inventors or, you know, those kinds of folks.

I like that a lot. It's good. All right, Daniel, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians. Very diverse vocationally, lots of entrepreneurs in the audience, but also a lot of baristas and medical professionals and attorneys and mechanics. What's one thing you want to say to them before we sign off this Christmas Day?

You know, I want to say this as a pastor. I want to say to you that your work really matters. Not just so that you can provide for your family. That is very important. Bible says it's important. Not just so you can give a part of your money to the Lord's work, which you should do, but the actual work you're doing every day. That doesn't seem like much. You know, getting there early, to the hospital, to your shift, working. You know, if you're a landscaper and doing beautiful lawn work or whatever it is that you're doing, creating, crafting, making sales calls, your work matters to God. It's part of how we take the raw materials of this earth and fulfill the creation mandate. It's part of how we serve our neighbors. We love our neighbors by being in the marketplace and serving their needs. Want to tell me your work matters? I always have people as a pastor come up to me and say, I wish I could be in the ministry like you. I just have this 9 to 5 job and I'm not working for God. I said, hold on a second. You are in the ministry. You are working for God. You are doing God's work. One quick story. My dad's a retired plumber. I mentioned that I used to help him. He used to drag me out to the construction site, super cold. Had to put on a million layers in Chicago in the winter. It was so good for me to learn how to work. And my dad was known for good work. And I would sit there and say, like, dad, like, can we just go? Like, why do you have to make sure it's perfect? You know, he's putting pipes inside the walls, water pipes that no one's going to see. Said, no one's got to see this, dad. So you could cover up a drywall. He said, yeah, but God sees it. And I want this work to be good. And that's what I'm talking about. The work you do that maybe nobody sees, maybe seems insignificant. It's significant to God.

That's exactly right. And it is the Lord's work. And by the way, if it wasn't, it would make no sense whatsoever that on that first Christmas day, Jesus would be born into the home of a small business owner named Joseph.

It just makes no sense.

So, Daniel, I want to commend you, man, for your exceptional work that you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for the reminder today of just how much our work matters and how we see that all throughout the Christmas narrative.

Hey, friends, if you want more from.

Daniel, check out his great book, the Characters of Christmas and the Characters of Easter. Daniel, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Well, thank you Jordan, and what a privilege it is and I love the ministry that God has given you here.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode.

If you did, go leave a review of the Mere Christians Podcast on Apple.

Spotify, wherever you're listening right now.

Thank you guys so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

Foreign.

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