David Platt (Founder of Radical)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right? I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody.

Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as guidance Counselors, tree trimmers, and compliance officers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to David Platt. He's the bestseller of some incredible books like Radical before youe Vote and this new book that I loved called Hold Back.

He's also the lead pastor at McLean.

Bible Church in metro Washington, D.C. and.

Previously served as the president of the International Missions Board. David and I sat down for the.

First time to talk through six steps for how we can follow Jesus fully in our workplace.

We talked about how David's view of.

The Great Commission has expanded greatly over time.

And we got into the weeds about how to respond.

Respond to gender pronouns in the workplace. I think you guys are gonna love this conversation with my new friend, David Platt. David Platt, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

It is really good to be here. I love everything that you are doing and trying to do through this podcast and through writing and just, yes, ordinary, everyday followers of Jesus in all kinds of different ways. Sorry, you're not. You're not asking me about your podcast.

Hey, you. You talk about me as much as you want, David Platt.

I appreciate it. May God bless. Yeah. The work of your hands. And as I think about people listening to this. Yes. May God multiply your number. Everyday, ordinary Christians doing, by God's grace, extraordinary things in the kingdom.

I love it so much. Hey, so I didn't reach out ahead of time. It was Christmas time. I know we were both busy. I was in the audience for this Keith and Kristen Getty show in D.C. that you spoke at a couple of months ago.

That was an incredible show at the Wharf.

I've done that now. I should probably give a caveat. I've done that show with them. I don't sing, actually. I take that back. One of my highlights. So I've done it with them. They've done that in D.C. at the Kennedy Center. This was the first time they done at the Wharf, the Museum of the Bible. And then they've done it like up in New York at Carnegie hall. And so, but at the end. So I've done it for a few years with them where I just give like, you know, I mean, you were obviously there, but a five minute devotional as they're doing all this great music stuff, but then they invite everybody who's been a part of the night to come out at the end and like, sing a song. So that's where I'm like, I've sung on stage at the Kennedy Center.

No big deal.

Carnegie hall at the Wharf. So, yeah, that's like my favorite moment in those things.

I gotta say, I love the Wharf in dc. So when I was living in DC Years ago, there was nothing down there.

But now you guys have got this.

Great music venue, got great restaurants. My wife and I took our three young girls ice skating there last January.

It's phenomenal.

Yeah, they've really done a lot. It's interesting. There's a lot of dynamics obviously at work there, but that's one of the things for us. We've lived here five years and it's not gotten old to us. Like, we still love coming down there. Heather and I were there that night and just kind of made it into a date night of sorts. But I'm smiling as you talk about taking your kids ice skating because it's so fun. I took my kids ice skating and it was miserable, bro, because my wife was out of town and so I took the kids. And, man, I'm not an ice skater and all. None of us, except for one of my daughters is an ice skater. Everybody else was like, they do not look back with fondness on that memory.

I know that feeling. And I should clarify. My wife took our girls ice skating. Ice skating stresses me the heck out.

Yes.

So I sat there with some hot chocolate and enjoyed that.

Well, then of course, if I was doing that, I would have enjoyed ice skating.

Hey, I mentioned this to you before we started recording, man. My first introduction to you and your thoughts on this connection between the gospel and our work was in this forward you wrote years ago for this great book called the Gospel at Work. And so when I knew we were talking today, I pulled open my old highlights from seven, eight years ago, and I still have this highlight. I love this line. You said, quote, one of our greatest needs in the church is an understanding of how daily work according to God's word ties in with God's ultimate purpose in the world. End quote. Obviously, I couldn't agree more. That's why this podcast exists. Spend a couple of minutes articulating this at a high level. David, how does the daily work of mere Christians tie in with God's ultimate purposes in the world?

Well, I mean, in so many ways. I'm trying to figure out how to summarize that. I mean, God created us in his image and he works. I mean, he has mighty works that bring glory to his name, and he created us to work. And so just that in and of itself, the fact that we work, that we do all kinds of work, is a reflection of, of our Creator and brings glory to Him. That's what one of the things I love about that book is the way it emphasizes just the dignity of any kind of work. I mean, assuming it's not sinful work. So but that caveat, any kind of work brings glory to God. It doesn't have to be. Yeah, sharing the gospel, ministry related, if I could use that term. But I mean, just anything we do where it's work. And this changes even when I talk with my kids about their schoolwork. Like, this is a reflection of who God's made you to be. And then, yeah, I think about the range of different professions of vocations as people listen to this and all kinds of different places to know that we, in a Colossians 3, 23 and 24 kind of way are not serving people. Ultimately we are doing that. We're creating culture, we're serving society in all kinds of ways. We. But ultimately we're serving the Lord Jesus with what we do when we work. And it just brings meaning. And then you take it a step further, it's the last thing I'll say. I could talk a long time about this, but it does open doors for the spread of the gospel in all kinds of different ways as we work in different domains and different areas. This is how the gospel spreads. I think about Acts chapter 19, verse 10. It says, Paul was in Ephesus in the hall of tyrannous. He's preaching every. And it says as he's preaching there, all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord. And I love that phrase because wait a minute, I mean, he stayed in one place and all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord. Well, how did that happen? It's because people were traveling through. They'd hear God's word and spread it on all these different byways and through business, through trade. It was opening doors for the spread of the gospel. When I look at the world today, well, I look at the city I pastor, I want a city where I pastor. I want to see followers of Jesus doing really good work. That opens doors for the spread of the gospel and to bring glory to his name all over the city. And then when I look around the world and I see 3 billion people who've never even heard the gospel and God has opened wide open doors for workers to go to all those places and all kinds of different vocations. It's just. May all the residents of the world hear the word through workers in different domains.

Yeah, and a lot of these 3 billion people are in countries that are traditionally Closed off to the gospel, to traditional missionaries. But boy, if you can come and help their economy, man, that door is open. Right? You can come and help them, help serve them and grow their businesses. Oh, they'll take anybody.

It's wide open. That's why I would not use the term like closed countries. Like, yes, close to. Close to me with my seminary degree and as a pastor. But not close to, like you said. Well, all kinds of teachers, engineers, doctors. I mean, so many different professions in so many creative ways even. I mean, I think about one girl, she graduated with her nursing degree, she got a job. Instead of looking for a job here, she looked for a job in the Middle East. Knowing this little gospel access there, she gets a job there, and years later, she's now the head of nursing in a significant hospital in the heart of a significant city in the Middle East. And she shares the gospel, has a Bible study in her office every week with Muslims. And nobody stops her because she's really good at nursing. And I just think, well, look at the sovereignty of God. Like this predominantly Muslim country is paying her to spread the gospel there. So not just opening the door, but actually funding the spread of the gospel there. It's pretty awesome when you think about it.

When you're so good, they can't ignore you, man. Lots of doors open up. They will be very curious about what you believe when you produce and serve people really well. David, I was telling you before, your book Radical was so impactful to me when I first read it years ago.

How old's the book now?

13 years.

12 years? 10 plus years, I think. 12, 13. Somewhere around there. Crazy, remember? Exactly. Yeah.

In the book, and I think this.

Is even in the subtitle, you're attacking the American dream in Radical. But you just published this new book, which I devoured in like two days and loved Code Don't Hold Back, that attacks what you call the American gospel. What do you mean by that term?

Yeah, so. And even as you're making kind of the connection that was intentional 10 years ago. 10 plus years ago, wrote book about taking back our faith in the American dream. But after the past few years, specifically of pastoring in metro dc, I'm convinced it wasn't just an American dream that was consuming our lives. It's an American gospel that has hijacked our hearts. And what I mean by that. So the best way I could summarize it, obviously I dive more into it in the book, but that we've exchanged a biblical gospel that exalts Jesus above everything. In this world for an American gospel that prostitutes Jesus for the sake of comfort and power and politics and prosperity in our country. And that leads to all kinds of harmful effects in the church, leads to all kinds of division and disillusionment and disengagement from the church. So, yeah, that's why I wanted to write this book. And it's really the overflow, much like radical, was of just conviction in my own heart and the church family I'm a part of. As we've walked through a variety of challenges to say, I just talked with so many people who have looked around at some of the things in the church over recent years and thought. I thought there was more to the church than this. I thought there was more to Jesus than this. And I've written this book to say there is. There's so much more to Jesus in the church, and we can experience it. Not better, but we can experience Him. But in order to do so, I really believe some things need to be different and we need to talk about some issues. And not just different in those people out there, but different in. In each of our hearts.

Yeah. As I was reading it, I kept thinking about Ephesians 2, 8, 10. And I would argue that one of the trademarks of this American gospel is that once I'm saved, I'm good, and.

I'm kind of just like sitting around.

Waiting for Jesus return.

Right.

It's Ephesians 2, 8 through 9. Great. I'm saved by grace, through faith, not by works without verse 10. You've been saved to do the good works that Jesus has called you to do. And I love that you point out in the book, you kind of passed by it. I wanted you to, like, dive deep on it. So I'm going to ask you to dive deep on it here.

You point out that this is the.

Lie the Thessalonians had fallen for some 2,000 years ago. Paul addresses this exact thinking in. In Second Thessalonians, Chapter 3. Can you quickly break down that text for us and what it means for Christ followers today?

Well, it's interesting when you look at the context that Paul was writing to. I mean, the reason. Well, he's talking a lot in both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians about Jesus coming back, which is something we hold on to, like we hope for. Would love for that to happen today. But there were Thessalonian Christians who had basically said, okay, well, if that's the case, then I don't need to work. And they were not doing work. They're not Taking jobs they're not supporting themselves. And so it's not the only reason Paul writes this letter, but he's writing to say, get a job, like, work, work hard. And all the more. So if Jesus is coming back, then make the most of the days we're in now in ways that glorify God in all the ways we were just talking about. And so it again feeds into this, the broader theology of work that we see in the Bible, that it is God honoring, and it's loving toward God and loving toward people. It's carrying out the great commandments when we work well, when we work out of the overflow of love for God, and we work out of the overflow of selfless love for others. So, yeah, there's a lot to unpack there, but that's the essence of what I was just kind of digging into, even as part of. And I think that that part of the book, I can't remember exactly, but deals with doing justice. And really, I mean, this is a requirement from God. What does he require of us? Micah 6, 8 as his people, that we do justice and love mercy. And part of doing justice is doing good work. This is just and good and right before God and before others. And so I hope even as people are listening to this right now and whatever area of work they find themselves in, that they hear the affirmation of God that their work is good and right and just. And, you know, to the extent which I trust, that they're working rightly and justly in ways that bring glory to God.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the topic of justice because you said I got the highlight here. You said I could easily write a whole book. You really put yourself on the line here about all the practical ways we could do justice and display kindness in the world around us. End quote. Because this is part of the good works that we mere Christians are called to. So, David, talk to the barista who's listening, the entrepreneur who's listening, the accountant, who's listening. Pick whoever you want. How does that person do justice within the context of their 9 to 5? What might that look like at a practical level?

That's, that's. I love that question. So the way I define justice in the book, and this is really out of the overflow. We as our church family, amidst all the particularly conversations about racial injustice over the last couple of years, we went through a process where we just opened our Bibles and said, okay, we're going to look at the gospel, the church, justice and race in The Bible. And we're going to fast and pray and learn because we're either going to be discipled by the world on these kinds of issues or discipled by God's word. And I'm zealous in my own life. And then in the lives of those lead in all the different areas you're talking about with all kinds of different jobs to know not what does this company. It really hit home when I was getting a medical test done at one point, and I saw just all this stuff at the hospital about justice. And I was like, okay, I want to make sure that God's word is defining justice and not a variety of others. So when it comes to nine to five, so what we do, what we did is when we looked at the Bible, we see, okay, justice is that which is right. And so justice and righteousness really go together all over scripture according to God's word. So there's a lot of things that we would say are right in our culture that are not right according to God's word. So that which is right for all people according to God's word. So for all people without distinction. So for you to think about, okay, in your job, I'm trying to make this general enough to apply to any job, but certainly to work with fairness to do that which is so to honor everyone. I mean, even as I say this, that sounds so basic. But, Jordan, I don't think we've done a good job of honoring everyone. I think there's a lot of.

I don't think we've done the basics.

Individuals and groups of people in our culture, who we work with, who, when they think of Christians, they don't think of. They honor me. So we do justice by showing honor to everyone, by showing hospitality to everyone, certainly by working with integrity and honesty. Like all these things, again, they sound so basic because they're coming out of my mouth, but they're in many ways countercultural. Like, we are not. We're not accepting bribes. We're not cutthroat, trying to. I mean, you get into competition, which I know is in many areas of work, that's part of the deal. But how we go about competition in a way that glorifies God, that is certainly not taking advantage of others, slandering others, working with humility. When we actually do these things like do. And I would argue that all of this is doing justice. We look very different in the workplace, and it's costly. I know there's people listening to this right now who I think about. I'll Use an example from what we were talking about earlier with open doors for the spread of the gospel and hard to reach places. I think about some friends of mine who started a business, and I'll just say a country in Central Asia without using that specific country's name. But basically they started this business and they would not accept or make bribes, and it really hurt them financially. But eventually, eventually people started to notice these people do business differently. There's something different here. And that was part of the point. Like, we want to show salt and light in a different way with the way we run a business. And so those are just some of the. I mean, we could keep going on and on with a variety of other things that scripture speaks to that are good and right. Right. For the people around us in ways that are oftentimes countercultural and oftentimes costly.

Yeah, talk to the account. Let's go a level deeper. Let's just focus on my wife who's a cpa. Right, sorry, Kara, we're calling you out. And she's doing her work with integrity.

Does the gospel compel her to go.

Further, not just to do her work ethically, but to look for those on the margins within her company who don't have as powerful a voice within her company as she does?

Or.

Yeah, talk about. No, no, keep going, man.

I interrupted you. I was, like, eager. Because I'm loving this, but, yeah, I.

Don'T want to go, Go, go, go. That's all I got. That's all I need to give you.

Yes, yes, yes. So, yes, I'm loving going deeper because there is no question when we see justice, like biblically, over and over again, it's hundreds of references to justice for the poor, the oppressed, those who have certain disadvantages in different ways. Certainly. I mean, groups like orphans and widows and sojourners. But yeah, the people on the margins. So, yes, yes, yes. To look for this and to go particularly over and above to reach those in the margin. It's interesting. I was just reading today and my time with the Lord this morning was in Luke 1, and it's Zechariah's prayer. When he praises God, he's talking about John the Baptist. He praises God for visiting and redeeming his people. What's interesting, and because he knows something's coming, like God's about to move in power and Jesus is about to come. But visiting. The word for visited, right there is the same word that James 1:27 uses when it talks about looking after orphans and widows in their distress and so to visit orphans and the true religion that God our Father accepts his pure and faultless is to look at after orphans or whatever the same word or some translations say, to visit. And basically the picture is God comes to us, goes crosses all kinds of barriers to come to us, to care for us. And then what we do, James 1:27, is we reflect that by doing the same thing for others. Now, the specific group in mind there in James 1:27 is orphans and widows.

But, yeah, the concept is the same. The principles Christ crossed, all these boundaries to enter are broken.

To go to the margins, to go to those who were, yes, on the outside, who were most prone to be, well, either oppressed or prone to be oppressed or poor or prone to be poor or disadvantaged in different ways. And so to be all the more intentional, that's a reflection of the character of our God.

Amen. Another element of the good works God has called us to is, like Christ, to show compassion to others. You dedicated a whole chapter of don't hold Back to this, to what you call compassionate conviction, essentially. Basically, what you're saying is, hey, we're going to hold true to biblical but unpopular stances on issues such as gender, abortion, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but do so with compassion and love.

And this is a question I've really.

Wanted to unpack of the podcast for a while now. Talk to the listener, David, who's working shoulder to shoulder with a transgender colleague. How does that listener love that friend well, and not condone their sin?

What's the line there?

What does that look like in practice?

Oh, I love that question. And I love the fact that many listeners, that's like, yeah, that's what I'm living in right now. Because God has you there. I'm just speaking of those I have in my mind right now. Like, God has you there. Like, God loves that person that you are working alongside so much, and he loves them so much that part of the evidence of his love for them is putting you in their life. So to see that. And so then, I mean, on a very basic kind of neighbor love level, love them selflessly. Like, get to know them, share life. Don't just work in the cubicle next to them. Like, get to know. I mean, to the extent which it's possible. Their story. Yeah, again, to the extent possible. And the extent they're willing to share their struggles, how they've come to certain conclusions that they've come to about themselves, about the world, and to do that genuinely, like, just out of Love, not like I'm doing this just so that you'll listen to what I say. Like genuinely love selflessly and at the same time, yes, share your heart with them and share the gospel with them. And that's where I would encourage specifically in that circumstance to start with. We've already mentioned that. Just want you to know what the Bible says about you. You are dignified, you have a glory like Psalm 8 talks about you as being crowned with glory and splendor. God loves you, made you fearfully and wonderfully and knit you together. Like when I'm having conversations along these lines, specifically when it comes to issues of gender and sexuality. Like I want to start with the beauty of who God has designed each of us to be and specifically them. Not like immediately diving into, okay, here's this sin now, yes, at some point there is conversation that comes up that's okay. I don't agree with how you view gender or sexuality, but here's why. And really so my encouragement on that kind of level practically would be to as much as possible. And again, the more relationship there is, the better. It's not just like a quick water cooler conversation, but as much as possible couch that in the gospel. So yes, all that I was just saying here's who God made us to be. And we all rebel against God's good design in our lives. Here's. I mean it's looked this way in my life. It looks this way in all kinds of people's lives. This is our problem in the world. And it looks different in different people's lives. But we all don't trust God's good design for our lives. We don't trust who God is and who he's made us to be for relationship with Him. And so just at a big picture level, and this is why Jesus came and then to restore us to God, to recreate us, redeem us, make us new in his image again as we trust in our Creator more than we trust in ourselves. And then if I'm so in the same way that if I'm talking with somebody who, well, just struggles with any other sin, like, okay, and here's how that fits into this story. Similarly, here's how unbiblical view. What I would say, yeah. Is an un unhelpful and wrong view of gender and sexuality fits into that story. It's really putting ourselves all on the same plane of needing Jesus to redeem us. And I guess the last thing I would say in that is going back to the whole first part. The more relationship There is couched around that and this person knows that regardless of how they respond, that you're going to be honoring them, that you're going to love them, you're going to be listening to to them the better, as opposed to you have that conversation and then that's kind of it after that. To the extent which it's possible for you to continue to cultivate that relationship and trust God to do by his spirit what only God can do by his spirit.

Yeah, that's good. All right, really hard follow up question. If you want to take a pass, just tell me and we'll edit it out with that guiding principle. We got this question from a mere Christian our audience recently. Do you use their preferred pronouns? Do you offer pronoun hospitality, if you will, as a means of keeping that door open and building that relationship?

I would say the reason I would be hesitant here is because, okay, where do we have like a clear word from God on this? And I don't have a verse I can point to that says, all right, here's the exact answer to that question. And so that's where I'm hesitant because this is, okay, how's the Spirit leading us to apply his word wisely to a certain circumstance? And this is where for me, as I've prayed through that and want to apply the word wisely and helpfully in circumstances like that, I am going to be much less likely to use those pronouns in a way that I would prefer and work really hard to use their name and not to affirm that which I don't think don't believe is right and good for them. And hopefully for all of that to be couched in loving relationship.

Yeah, I get that. So by the way, listeners, if you're really interested in this topic, I'm not sure where I land on this, but chapter 12 of Preston Sprinkles book Embodied has been enormously helpful to me in this. John Piper would agree with everything you just said there, David. That's basically the argument he makes in the book. Preston comes down a slightly different side, but I could see how faithful believers get to different answers to that question. But listeners, if you're interested in going deep on that topic, go there. All right, David, part of not holding back as you talk about in the book as Christians is being fully engaged in carrying out the Great Commission.

Right.

But I know a lot of Christians have a very narrow view of what that looks like. And from what I could tell based on this story you shared in the book, you did too. You had this Meeting years ago with the leader of an international missions organization.

Would you mind sharing that story with.

Our listeners and what you learned from it?

Yeah, I would love to. So basically I did have a very narrow view of the Great Commission. Like I thought, okay, make disciples. This is what I'm supposed to do as a follower of Jesus. But I was. And once I heard that there were 3 billion plus people in the world who have little to no knowledge of the gospel, then I thought, well, okay, I need to be a missionary, then I need to move to another nation. I need to go to those places. If this is what we're, we're supposed to do, if this is the command Jesus gave us, then this is the way to play this out. And so I was talking with the, I was having breakfast with the leader of missions organization. I told my wife the night before, I said, heather, going to breakfast, I'm going to tell them we're ready to move overseas. Is that okay with you? And she was like, yeah, it's okay with me. So we prayed and because we'd obviously talked about that multiple times. And so I went off to breakfast, sat down with him, just shared my hey, I see the need among the nations. I see God's word telling us to make disciples of the nations. So my wife and I are ready to go. How do we go? And he looked back at me and for about 60 seconds encouraged me in what I just said and then spent the rest of breakfast talking to me about the need specifically for pastors to shepherd and lead churches where the gospel has gone for the spread of the gospel, where it hasn't gone. And I was so confused. I remember coming back afterwards and Heather was like, how'd it go? And I'm like, I don't know. I think the president of this missions organization just talked me out of becoming a missionary. And she looked at me like really kind of disappointed, like I'd blown the wrong with you. Yes, you kind of ruined our dream. But I'm so thankful. And this is what I dive into more in depth in the book is I'm so thankful for that conversation. Because he put a category in my mind in that conversation that wasn't there before. Looking back, I realized it should have been there. But the category, there's a type of person who is actually really, really passionate about getting the gospel to all the nations, but who doesn't become a missionary. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, well, of course there's that category. It's called a Christian. And this is what I love, even as I say that. And I think mere Christian, like, yes, because like, we've kind of created this dichotomy where if you're passionate about the spread of the gospel of nations, okay, you're in this category over here. You're a missionary, or you're at least just kind of fanatic on that end. And then the rest of us are here. But if, well, do you have the spirit of Jesus inside of you? Because if you do, the spirit of Jesus wants the nations, is passionate about the nations for Jesus. So if you have the spirit of Jesus in you, then you will be passionate about spreading Jesus glory and goodness to the nations. Like, this is not just for a few. This is for mere Christians. This is for every follower of Jesus. Now it's going to play out differently in all our lives. Like, I to this point, have not moved overseas and I have pastored a church. And God's not calling everybody to do the exact same thing either vocationally or in the same location. He calls us to do all kinds of things in all different kinds of different places, but he calls us to do it all with a passion to see disciples made among all the nations. That's what should be driving every one of us. And this is what I pray for all the time. When I think about the church I pastor in dc, all these different people and all kinds of different places of work, that what happens when every single follower of Jesus is saying, okay, my life is for the spread of God's glory among all the nations. And as, I mean, you've used the example, I think, entrepreneur, barista. I can't remember what other examples you use, but yes, and in military and in this government job, and in teaching and in engineering and in law. Like all these different domains, these are avenues where God has opened up for the gospel to spread, much like we were talking about. And the opportunities to do that among the nations are more than ever before in history, Jordan. And we're living in this time and place with the globalization of today's marketplace. So let's all live with that passion and let it change the way we live right where we are today.

Amen.

I couldn't agree more. And you know, but anytime the topic of evangelism comes up on the podcast, I know that our listeners can get discouraged.

Because, let's face it, even if you're.

Great at making disciples with your co workers, 99% of the time, 98% of the time at the office is going to be spent on tasks other than talking Somebody through the room.

Its road.

Right.

But I think the mind shift has.

To be rooted in what we define as evangelism. Right.

Because I think we got to move.

To this place where we're viewing 100% of our lives as evangelism, not just the 1% where we're walking through a track.

Can you speak to that, David, as.

An encouragement to our listeners?

Yeah. In fact, let me tell you a story that's not in the book that I think will be helpful. It's been really helpful for me. So now it is from a place in the Middle East. So here. Imagine a country in the Middle east where it's illegal to share the gospel and legal to lead a Muslim of faith in Jesus. But I think about friends I know who started a business over there. And the way they would put it is like we're sharing the gospel every day. And the way they talk about it is. So they're. Well, I won't disclose all the details of business, but there's a manufacturing kind of component to this business. And, and so they have all kinds of workers who are Muslim and they're followers of Jesus. There's a few others. But basically the way they described it is they said our goal is in the context of all that 98% that you were just talking about the way they talked about it. Well, one, as we've already talked about, like do really good work, excellent work that reflects the character of God. So yes, doing that. And then they talked about it. The way they described it to me is they said we just look for opportunity to weave threads of the gospel into the fabric of our everyday interactions. So they just, I mean, when you think about threads of the gospel, think about the character of God and dignity as well as sinfulness of people and the uniqueness of who Jesus is and what faith is, what grace is. So these are just 10 and the reality that this world is not all there is, that there is eternity coming beyond this world. So these threads of the gospel, basically they talk instead of talking. Like I think about the conversation I had this week with waiter who I've gotten to know at the table at this particular restaurant. Like, I'm telling them all about what God is doing in my life. And I'm talking about God's blessing as we just adopted a baby girl and this way or that way, but just to look for opportunities to weave different threads of gospel. And then they said, our hope, our constant prayer is that as these threads, the gospel are being woven into the fabric of our everyday conversations, that then in that 1% will have opportunities when they ask, hey, can you tell me a little bit more about that? Or they're going through something in their life where they need some particular encouragement. This is there's opportunity to kind of bring those threads together. And they've seen people come to know Jesus in that way. And it was so helpful for me, I'm a pastor, but just in my own personal evangelism to think, okay, when I'm at the gym this morning doing CrossFit workout, how can I as I'm doing that workout, and yes, I would say 98% of what I'm doing there is just focus on working out. But then in looking for opportunities, even as I'm doing that, to weave threads of the gospel into the fabric of conversations in ways that set the stage for that 1 or 2%. Later, when hopefully God provides a door for that Roman road and all of that again, they come back to alongside good God, glorifying people, honoring work.

Yeah, are you familiar with this launcher's journal that William Wilberforce walked around British Parliament with?

No.

Oh my gosh. This has become my favorite tool.

Yeah, tell me about it.

For sharing the gospel. So for listeners who don't know, Wilbur Force was a member of the British parliament in the 1700s, known most famously for no Big Deal, abolishing the slave trade in his lifetime throughout the British Empire. But he was also like a disciple making machine. Like, his biographers say that when he entered Parliament, there was maybe a handful of Christians and when he left, there were like 200, something like that. And they largely credited Wilberforce, the Lord working through Wilberforce to do it. So his trick was a trick. It's God's spirit. Amen. But to this tool he used was a simple journal called Launchers where he would write down a list of names of people who is praying would come to faith in Christ. And next to their name, very simple prompts of conversation starters to take those conversations from the surface level to the serious into the spiritual. Right. So like one of his journal entries, it's just like s and Mrs. Ask them what books they're reading, inquire about the education of their children and whether or not they talk about faith at home. Invite them to come hear Pastor Venn speak on Saturday at church. Just like very simple prompts, but hyper intentional about weaving those threads of the gospel into those conversations so that the conversations don't stay at the surface level. So hopefully somebody's listening and finds that helpful. Hey, David, I want to close at this.

I love that. And I would just add if it'd be a helpful resource if somebody searched a gospel threads, because I ended up doing a whole series on this at one point. So Gospel threads, radical. If you put that in, I think it should come up. But where it was like, yeah, how do we, on a practical level, like, conversate? Like, here's language that can just be. It's super simple, but it becomes intentional in our lives in a way that we're weaving gospel threads into the fabric of our everyday conversations.

I love it. Hey, I want to close with this. You shared these six practical steps at the end of the book for listeners to follow Jesus fully in their lives and their work. Can you quickly share those six steps with us?

Yeah, sure. Basically. All right. To summarize as we. Yeah, try to put. Well, a lot of things I talk about in the book and in practice to one, cultivate community on earth as it is in heaven. To show. And this is part of the beauty of the church. And when I think about the different kinds of people who might be listening to this podcast, like, what I love about the church is you've got all these different people who work in all these different places, who come from all these different backgrounds and have all these different perspectives and in many ways look and think different. I mean, I think about the church. I Pastor, there's 100 different countries representing this church. The only explanation before for them being together and not just being together, like in the same room singing songs, but, like, sharing life with each other and caring for each other like family. That's only possible because of Jesus. Like, there's no other explanation. So cultivate community with people who don't look like you and think like you, but who have Jesus in common with you. That's what heaven's going to look like. So let's cultivate that kind of community here. And there's a lot of implications from that. Second, seek God. I'll try to make these quicker. Sorry, I'm like, oh, you're good.

You take all the time you want.

But seek God early, late, and long. I just. We are prone to. To seek God as a means to an end, as opposed to him being the end. And especially as I think about people who are driven and like to accomplish things and goals and just to remember God is the goal. So what is. How does that look in our lives for God to be the goal? Yeah, a lot to dive into there. And then third, I try to encourage people to memorize, starting with a chapter and maybe even a book from God's Word and kind of build from there. Just, yeah, if we're going to hold fast to God's Word with conviction and to make sure we're holding fast and our faith is built on God's Word and not American ideals. Not that those are always totally different, but they are many times different. We need to make sure God's Word is deep in us. So that's third, fourth, to show countercultural compassion in the world. That's where there's just practical encouragement to cultivate the kind of relationships we've been talking about with people, so specifically people who would be prone to think Christians are adversarial to them, to go out of our way to show countercultural compassion and share life and of course, share the gospel in the context of that relationship. To do justice in all kinds of ways that I kind of practically walk through. But I praise God for ways that you are doing justice. And then I hope this conversation has even prompted it. But to really pause and think, are there other. I try to encourage at the end of the book a couple, two or three other ways which God might be leading you to do, to do justice more faithfully, and then lastly to reach the unreached. If there's 3 billion people who've never heard the gospel, then as we've talked about, this is for all of us to address every one of us who has the spirit of Jesus in us. So that should change the way we pray. It should change the way we use our resources. It should change even the way we think about the plans for our lives and our families. And God may leave us exactly where we are for the rest of our lives. But hopefully he would open our eyes or hopefully we would see the opportunities we have even from where we are now to be a part of reaching the nations. And then that we would really truly be open to the fact that God, with 3 billion people who have never heard the gospel, he is calling some more people to go, even short term, but then longer than. Than that, and to go on the wings of work to the nations. And just to see what are the unique opportunities we have. We've done a gathering as radical the last couple of years with entrepreneurs and leaders and athletes and entertainers, just people in a variety of different domains, saying, how can you leverage your life, specifically in your work for the spread of the gospel of the nations? Like, I would love for the people who are listening to this just to ask God that and really intentionally discern what would that look like? For me to leverage where I am, where I work, with the resources I have, how can I play a part in getting the gospel people who've never heard it.

Amen. Go back to number three, real quick. What chapter of scripture would be best for this audience to memorize? A group of Christians who is also ambitious for their work.

Okay, so the first one that comes to my mind, I'm probably gonna like, 10 minutes from now be like, I cannot believe I said that chapter. But, I mean, it's not gonna go wrong as a chapter of the Bible. But the first one that comes to my mind is Colossians, chapter three, because we mentioned it earlier. Serving the Lord. But there's just really good. The beginning of Colossians 3, talking about the character of Christ and being clothed with Christ and the way that affects even our relationships at home. Home, and then relationships at work, and then ultimately how we work with all our hearts because we're serving Jesus. So Colossians, that's a good one. Nobody would go wrong with memory.

That's exactly right. That's. There can't. There's not a wrong answer to that question.

Right. But I would probably start there as opposed to, like, Leviticus 3.

So, yeah, pro tip. All right, David, three rapid fire questions. We wrap up every episode with. Number one, what books do you find yourself gifting most frequently these days?

Well, my favorite books that I've gifted most frequently, a lot, all the time, have been Knowing God and Desiring God. So knowing God by J.I. packer is probably my top. I love that book. It's just go back and reread parts of it all the time. And then Desiring God by John Piper, you mentioned earlier. Just so those two books. And then, I mean, you mentioned the gospel at work. I love giving that book away specifically because. Yeah, I hope it's just encouraging for people who are in all kinds of different workplaces to see how the gospel transforms the way they view work.

That's good. Who would you want to hear in this podcast, David, talking about how the gospel influences the work that mere Christians do in the world?

Well, I mean, the first name that comes to my mind as I think about that is the Sebastian. Who, Sebastian Trager, who wrote the Gospel at Work with Greg Gilbert. And Sebastian and I have worked alongside each other in the past, and he's a gifted worker and loves Jesus, loves the church. And I mean, a lot of that book is the overflow of his life. So I don't know if you've ever. I don't know if You've ever met Sebastian or I have met Sebastian.

It's been a few years since we caught up, but that's great. We've never had Sebastian on the show, so I got to react. Reach out to Sebastian.

Yeah.

All right.

David, one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before.

We sign off, I would say, because this would be the fountain from which all of it flows to workers in all kinds of different domains. Like, make sure your ultimate goal in life is intimacy with God. Like, that is what is driving you more than anything else. That when you wake up in the morning In a Matthew 6 kind of way, you go in your room at some point, whether it's first thing or at some point, go in your room, close the door, pray to your fathers unseen, and your father sees what is done in secret, will reward you like there is reward waiting for you every day and God as the goal of your life. And I'm just confident if that's a reality in each of our lives, then, well, everything else will flow from that. If it's not, then we could be busy, even busy doing a lot of good things. It's one of the things I talk about in this Don't Hold Back book is my own tendency, even as a pastor, to not seek God as the goal. And I just. Man, there's so much part of me wants to say, hey, get the Gospel of the nations through your workplace. So, yes, that. But it really is the overflow of knowing God and his heart be in your heart because you love being with Him.

Man, that's convicting for me. David, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of those you serve. Thank you for not rubbing our ears, but for challenging us for putting more weight on the bar so that we might follow Christ more fully in our lives and our work in every aspect of our lives and bring greater glory to the one who has saved us. My friends, friends, I strongly recommend picking up David's new book, Don't Hold Leaving behind the American Gospel to Follow Jesus Fully. David, thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

Pure joy, Jordan. Just thank you. And yeah, I hope that everybody listening to this is just encouraged in where God has put them right now.

Man, guys, David is incredible. Even more incredible after you meet him, which is a great conversation after we got off air and just so generous this time, taking time to pray for me. And it's rare that you meet one of your heroes and you're more impressed after you leave the room, but I'm certainly more impressed after I spent some time with David today. Guys, I hope you're loving the Mere Christians podcast. If you are, please go leave a rating of the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify wherever you listen. But hey, don't move past what David said. God is the goal. He's not a means to an end. He is the end. And he is what we're all ultimately striving for and searching for. So keep that in mind as you go about your day today. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.

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