Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry.com)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me.

Right.

I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because, listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, et cetera, et cetera, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work. But in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote.

But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9 by filling out that form. You'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody.

Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious Professionals, but who work as product managers, occupational therapists, and pest control workers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Deb liu, the incredible CEO of Ancestry.com where before that Deb was a senior executive at Facebook, where she created Facebook Marketplace, and before that, she spent several years in product roles at PayPal and eBay, where she led the integration between those two products. No big deal, right? Deb and I recently sat down and had a terrific conversation about how we need to rethink evangelism as something we do every single minute of every single day. We talked about the wild story of Deb pitching Facebook Marketplace in her very first interview with Sheryl Sandberg back in 2009.

Ish. And we talked about the super practical.

Thing Deb does and that you can do today to show your coworkers that you love and value them beyond their productivity. I think you guys are going to love this conversation with my new friend, Deb Liu. Deb Liu, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

So in the introduction, I just rattled off some of your incredible titles, but I may have left out maybe the most fun title. You're the creator of the Mommy School comics, are you not?

I am. I am.

So this website's hilarious. Mommyschool.net tell our listeners what this is real quickly.

You know, when my kids were young, they used to just say the silliest things, and I used to post them on Facebook with the hashtag mommyschool. And my were like, you should turn this into a comic. And so at one point, I finally did. I still make them after all of these years, and it's been super fun. I haven't posted as many as I'd like. I still have a ton I need to post, but it's been a great adventure to remember your kids childhoods through comics.

It's hilarious and you can be forgiven for slowing down the content. You got a pretty big job these days. Do you draw the cartoons?

No. I love art and I do. I would. It just takes me so long. So I hired a few artists over the years to help me with the comic.

You guys got to go check it out. Out@mommy school.net, it's hilarious. All right, Deb, let's start here. I think pretty much Everybody knows what Ancestry.com is, but for those who don't, what's ancestry?

We're the world leader in genomics and family history. We help you discover, connect, and, you know, share your family story with your Family and with the world, if that's what you choose.

Have you. I'm assuming you've gone through the process, right?

Yes, I have built my family tree with a lot of my cousins. I also have done the DNA test and it's been really interesting to connect with your family in la.

What's the most interesting thing you discovered through that process?

You know, our records are really fascinating. We actually have billions of records that we have collected over the years. A lot of them, I think about 70 or 80% of them are actually proprietary collections. And so one of the things that we do is we have immigration records. And I actually found the original immigration records for my mother in law when she came to America, including the attestation record from a woman from her church. And I showed it to my husband and he's like, oh, that's Aunt Mary from our old church. So my in laws actually helped found a Chinese church inside of a Southern Baptist church in North Carolina. And there was a woman from the Southern Baptist church who helped them immigrate to America, which is amazing.

That's super cool. I love that. So, all right, you left Facebook in What was it, February 2021. Is that about right, to become CEO of Ancestry. What got you excited about the opportunity?

Well, when they called, you know, I was, I wasn't sure I was thinking about leaving. And I had been talking to a number of companies around a CEO position. When Ancestry called, you know, I had to learn more about the company. It was something which was a journey of self discovery for me as I built out my own family history. And there's just something really special about documenting your family history and being able to tell those stories. Family has been so important to me, you know, being so far away. We actually grew up in a small town in South Carolina, but my parents would save up for years so we could afford to go to Asia, to go to Hong Kong to see my relatives. And so, you know, it's so important to them for us to stay connected to our family. And now, you know, with all the digital technology, that's not even, you know, an issue. But before, you know, it used to cost more than a dollar for a minute to call your own family. And my parents made three or four dollars an hour. You know, my mom actually worked a lot of minimum wage jobs just to help make end speed. And so I just remember how important that was and to reconnect with your family and to continue to tell that story. That's what Ancestry does.

Yeah. I had to explain to my young Girls, the other day, what a calling card was.

I used to have tons.

That was amazing. That was amazing. We're big fans of the musical in the Heights, and there's a line in one of my girl's favorite songs about calling cards. And they're like, what? What is this? I was like, kids, you'll never understand. It's not even worth me explaining to you. You'll see it in a movie someday. So I am curious. You mentioned your husband's spiritual ancestry. What's yours? Did you grow up in the church?

What's the story there?

You know, I grew up in the church, actually came to America and went to a Christian university. It's called Calvin University today. It was Calvin College back then. She was not a Christian. She had actually come, and my parents and my in laws applied to just one or two schools, didn't know anything about America. And my mom ended up in Michigan with her brother, and they both went to a Christian university. And that's where she became a Christian. And when she met my father, he became a Christian as well. And we have spent my entire life growing up in churches. And so, you know, it's been wonderful to have that as part of our lives and part of their journey as well.

Yeah, it's cool. Deb, this podcast is all about how the gospel shapes the work of our guests. So I'm just curious, real broad question.

In your opinion, what's the most significant.

Way you think your faith influences the work you do every day?

Well, I think the most important thing is just, you know, what I believe infuses every decision in how I live my life. And I think that that faith, the faith that, you know, we are here to serve a purpose that we have, meaning is so important to me. And so as part of my book, in the very last chapter, I talk about my personal mission statement that, yeah, that we're here to leave the world better than we found it. Right. That the interaction we have with each person, we get to choose whether we lift up or we tear down. And so so much of my life has been that, which is, how do we lift others up? How does the work that we have leave its mark in the world? And so, so much of that came from my faith.

Yeah, you mentioned your personal vision statement in the book, which reads, God gave us a short time to make our mark. So I want to live each day with purpose. I want to lead people better for having met me. I'm a problem solver, connector, and creator. So I will use those skills to live with no regrets. I love that so much. How did you arrive at that particular articulation of your personal vision statement, Deb?

You know, I've always had a version of that in my head. And then as part of an exercise I was doing a couple years ago, I put it down on paper. It helped walk through kind of what do you believe? Why do you wake up every morning? What kind of person are you? What are your superpowers? And as I sat down and kind of wrapped around that personal mission statement, I realized that I wanted to put the words in such a way succinctly enough that I could live by it. And so that's what I did. I think it's a great exercise. I actually need to write more about the exercise. Did. But it was just such an illuminating thing to know that in the back of your head you have always lived by a credo and yet never written it down. And so really kind of forcing yourself to write down the words and remind yourself of that every single day.

Yeah. I love that so much. I'd love to see you write on that. Maybe on your substack newsletter. That would be. That'd be a great topic to write on. Yeah. You know, from the outside looking in, as I've studied your career a little bit, to me it appears that one of the ways your faith shapes your work is your deep care for equality and serving underserved populations. Am I reading that right? Is there a connection here?

Yeah, that's something that's incredibly important to me. One of the things that, you know, my book is about is how to bring equality in the workplace for women. And I started Women in Product and Nonprofit to bring more women into tech. And the reason is product managers, for those of you who. Who aren't familiar, is they are the people who decide what goes on. Tech roadmaps, what products get built. They are the founders, they are a lot of investors actually come out of this field. And it's really important to me to have more voices represented. And that's what I have spent the last 20 years really focused on, is actually bringing more voices to the table. And that those diverse voices can make our products better, can make our worlds more fair and equal.

Yeah. Whether it's women or any other group of people, what can we as Christ followers be doing in businesses today to help create more opportunities for all and do it in a non patronizing way? Like, what does that look like, Deb?

Well, I think we go back to, you know, what Jesus represents in the Bible, you know, how he cares for those who are, you know, when we talk about our products, when we talk about our companies, we often are serving the wealthiest. We're serving those who. Who have the most. But what if we built products that serve the whole world equally? What if we made our products more accessible to everybody? And, you know, you look at his story of the Samaritan, you know, somebody who was reviled for what that person believed and yet just, like, choose how they chose to worship, and yet was somebody he praised. And so, you know, you look at that and you look at his encounter with the Samaritan woman as well, and you see that, you know, the story of God is one that Jesus tells us, the story of actually connection, of connecting with people who aren't like us, who have less power than us, and how he raises them up as opposed to tears them down. And I think in our society, we, you know, don't care as much about the poor or those who have less, who have less opportunity. And, you know, we. One thing I'd like us all as Christians to do is to really open up to what, you know, the gospel is radical, honestly, and uncomfortable sometimes. And I think that we need to actually ask ourselves when we say we want to be Christ, like, what are we mimicking? What are we saying?

Yeah. You mentioned this before you grew up in South Carolina, right?

Yes.

So you're this Chinese kid living in the deep American South. I'm curious if God used that experience to mold your heart, shape your heart, and give you deep care for those who have historically had less power in our society.

Yeah, I mean, I grew up in a place where I looked like nobody around me, where, you know, we would go out in the malls or in the streets and people would shout, go back to where you came from. And I just remember that sense of alienation because, like, you actually heard that.

You actually heard people a lot like people.

People are surprised when they hear me tell that story. And I said, it didn't happen once. It's happened all the time. And I think people just don't realize how, you know, when you grow up feeling like the other. You know, as they. They say, Asian Americans are the forever foreigners because we always look like foreigners no matter how long we've been here. I mean, I have friends who are Asian Americans whose grandparents or great grandparents came, and they are still seen as foreigners in such an interesting way. And, you know, that sense is a reminder that, you know, we as a society tend to tear down those who are different from us. And for me, that was impetus to Say, you know, what, what does God's love do? It should lift up issue, care for others. And so for me, that formative experience helped me see how to support others who have less or who are supported less.

Was this part of the reason why you went into business? Did you see business as a vehicle for serving the underserved?

Well, you know, I actually started in engineering. My father is an engineer for the government in the Army Corps of Engineers. I had wanted. I studied environmental engineering, hoping to perhaps work on wastewater treatment in emerging markets, actually. And then, you know, the thing about business, though, is that's so powerful in how it shapes our world. And so I decided to go into business because it was an opportunity to shape kind of the products that we build and the things that we. We see every single day. And it has such scale. Some of the products I built have, you know, billions of people using it, which is amazing. Over a billion people use Facebook Marketplace, a place to connect through commerce. And that is the kind of scale that I think only business can do.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Marketplace. It's a great example of this. Right. So how is a Christ follower in the chair of owning that product? A billion users. How were you able to use that position and steward that power on behalf of the powerless?

What was different about how you approach.

The product because of your heart for the marginalized?

Well, I think the interesting thing is, you know, I. I could see that, you know, the power of community, commerce could be so powerful on a platform like Facebook that When I interviewed 2009, there were like 900 employees at the company. I interviewed with Sheryl Sandberg, she interviewed me, and then I pitched her on building Marketplace. First time I met her. This is my one chance to meet Sheryl Sandberg, and I was going to pitch her on it.

Amazing. They said during your interview, and you're.

Pitching it during my interview, and she kind of looked at me and she kind of nodded and smiled and she was very kind about it. And she mentions this in the forward of the book, you know, and I had never asked her what she thought, and she actually wrote it in the forward, which I think. Think it's really interesting when I read it. But, you know, years later, actually 2009, I actually didn't really start in earnest until 2015, starting to work on that product. And I didn't get the green light to work on it for many, many years. I worked on a number of different interesting businesses, you know, payments. I also worked on the games business. I worked on some Ads products, including the ad network. And finally I had the opportunity to build this. And the reason I saw how powerful this was, was because I was a mom and I was working in tech and I was one of the few moms at the company and I could see how moms connected with each other to help, you know, save money. I mean it's very expensive to raise a child. And so many moms would tell me, well I buy all my stuff in mom's groups. And I did as well. I have bought and sold all my kids bicycles on say, you know, everything that they had, all their clothes and everything. And so, you know, I just love the opportunity to be able to build a commerce that connects communities closer together. And so finally we had a chance to work on it. And you know, it didn't work. Actually the first time, two or three years we worked on it. And I just remember people asking who I worked with. I mean these are again, we work in tech companies where everyone makes six figures and you know, can afford to buy new. And somebody said, well, you know, who's using this product? And you know, a lot of my colleagues were somewhat skeptical. So they would like, they would never buy something used. And I said, look, you know, we built a product for the world that, a world that doesn't look like us. I still drive a 12 year old Hyundai, you know, so I have bought mostly used cars. I still love my Hyundai and you know, I have bought used things. I remember saying in a meeting, I bought a used refrigerator, a marketplace and someone said, we don't pay you enough to buy a new refrigerator. And I just remember thinking that's not the point. The point is there are people who can't afford this. And for me it's actually about environmentalism. It's about caring for the world that God has made for us that we shouldn't. You know, just if you can buy a used refrigerator, that's one less thing that goes to the dump. And I still have how that use refrigerator by the way. It's been about six, seven years and it's great. And so I, I think that my heart was for those who, you know, not just for those who want to be environmentally conscious, but for those who can't afford the day to day of buying new for everything. And just think about the gift we can give the world by making it possible for people to connect with each other and to, to buy and sell and to make, you know, having children a little bit more affordable and to be able to get a used car, to get to work. You know, it became a place that connected people, people in a special way. And I'm so proud to have been able to work on that project.

That's amazing. And you would say that work is ministry. That is being the hand of Jesus. How so articulate that for us.

Well, you know, I feel like we. We talk about our work like it's this thing where it's completely separate from what we. Every single day you wake up, you spend way more time at work than you do with even your family. You know, you spend eight, nine hours at work and suddenly, you know, at home you might spend that much time with your own family, your kids, but, you know, they go to bed at 9, 10 o' clock and say, you think about that, how many hours you're spending at work. And so if that's not something that. If what you're doing, it doesn't have any relation to your faith, if your faith doesn't help you choose to make decisions to make the world better, then what are you doing every single day for the majority of your time that you're awake?

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think there's a really good example. I read an article in preparation for today about something you're doing right now that I think is serving the underserved in a pretty powerful way. This program called Ancestry for All. Can you tell us a little bit about that and maybe talk through the science of how ancestry works? Because I didn't understand that before even reading the article. But it's all based on these samples, right?

Yeah. So one of the things we do actually, Ancestry for All actually covers both of our products. So on the DNA side, it's really helping people to discover their origins, but also getting samples from underrepresented communities in particular. One of the things we want to do is to explore getting. Helping people connect, for example, to the community that they're from. Especially, for example, those who are black and have been in this country and, you know, migrated forcibly to this country and have no connection to their home country because they lost all of the. There's no records. There's no, you know, way to connect. And so one of the things we did as part of our family history side is we scanned and documented and indexed and made for free available the Freedman's Bureau and Freedmen's bank records, which happened after the Civil War. And you think about after the Civil War, there was such displacement. And the creation of the Freedmen's Bureau was to connect those who were former enslaved with their Community and with their families, if possible. And we did this show called the Hawkins Letter, which a man writes a letter. He was sold off as a child. Imagine, you know, the age of my daughter. He was sold off because he was collateral for someone else's debt. And he was sold off from, I believe, Virginia to Texas. And he never went home. And he wanted to write a letter to the Freedmen's Bureau to connect with his family and said, here's everything I remember about my family, and I want you to help me find them. And he never found them. And this letter was in the Freedmen's Bureau. It was scanned and indexed. And then actually we had a team go meet the descendants and introduce them. And it was just so incredible to see, you know, their descendants so many generations later meet up over a letter that was written, you know, so many, so many years ago.

Yeah, I love that. I love your heart for the underrepresented. You told this story in your new book, take back your power. That really resonated with me. I'm going to save the book for my girls to read as. As they get older. It's this heartbreaking story of something a pastor told you and your husband when you were doing premarital counseling. Would you mind sharing that story with our listeners?

Yeah. I was so excited. So we had started dating when I was 19, so we've been together for a long time. And then we were dating long distance for several years, and we moved to Atlanta and we were doing pre marriage counseling, and I got into Stanford for business school, which was my dream, and I was so excited. And we went and told the pastor who was counseling us, and, you know, we were preparing to get married that summer. And I would have, you know, my husband or my boyfriend at the time said, you know, she got into Stanford. We're going to move out there right after we get married. And the pastor just looked at us and he said to my husband, the man should have the lead career. Why are you going with her? And, you know, she doesn't need a graduate degree to stay at home. And. And these things that I just. He lectured us. And I just remember feeling like my heart sunk. You know, what if this was against God's will for me? You know, I was 23 years old at the time and. And, you know, much less sure of myself. And I just remember thinking like, this is a man of God, and he's telling me that my dream was outside the will of God. And I just didn't know what to do. And I was really Hurt and upset. And I just sat on it. And afterwards, you know, I was talking to David, and, you know, he said something. David's my husband. And I said to David, you know how I felt about this? And he said, you know, there's a reason you're named Deborah. She is a powerful woman. God does not make mistakes. And he just, you know, he. He shared with me, he's like, you know, she is a leader, and she's a leader in her community, and she's a leader of. Of Israel. So think about that, right? And then he said, you know, think about the Proverbs 31 woman. She's an entrepreneur, she's a mother, she's a wife. And her husband probably just sits at the gate and spits in each other's shoes. And, you know, with the other man making contracts. And, you know, funnily enough, my husband's a lawyer.

That's awesome.

You know, he joked and he said, you know, there are powerful women in the Bible. Why do you think he's right? And so he encouraged me, and we went to speak to the other pastor, the senior pastor of the church. This is a Chinese church. And the senior pastor shared how powerful his own wife is, who has a graduate degree, I believe, and, you know, had shared with us, you know, that he gave us his blessing and he actually blessed our marriage, and we moved to California. And so, you know, it's so incredible to see that, you know, your life is not fixed, that there's not one answer that God has picked for you that somebody is going to tell you what that is. In fact, two pastors from the same church disagreed on what it was that we should be doing with my life. And luckily, I have this incredible husband who's so supportive.

Yeah, that's amazing. I'm so glad you shared that. Such an encouragement to our listeners. We got a lot of young Christian women listening to this. I'm curious if you were to pull them into a small room, you know, years after that conversation and make a case as to why the world needs more women in the work, by specifically Christian women, what would you say? What would your case be?

You know, that's the thing in the Bible. The women of the Bible did so many things, were so many so powerful in and of their own right? And, you know, there are women who are innkeepers like Rahab. There are those who are, you know, leaders like Deborah, and, you know, they. They labor alongside their husbands in so many cases, leading churches, leading communities. And I just feel like, you know, they are powerful in their own right. And it's because God gave them their profession. Just like, you know, the Proverbs 31 woman, she didn't, you know, she didn't just care for her home. She had a. She was a witness in her community through her hard work. And, you know, she's praised by the psalmist about her industriousness and her care for her family and for her community. And I think that that is the witness that God has given us about what women can do in the workplace and in their home as well. And it doesn't mean that one has to take over the other. It's not about, you know, one or the other. It's actually about integrating the witness that you have at home and at work together.

Yeah, it's good. By the way, there was this great speech my researchers uncovered that you gave a few years ago. We'll try to put in the show notes on YouTube. I think it's called who is Jesus to you? And it was terrific. You shared this little anecdote about how you had an open door policy. I can't remember where you were working at the time. Maybe with Facebook or ebay, where anybody within the company could come and talk to you about anything personally or professionally. What was that experience like?

I kind of did it on a whim. I was teaching a new hire class, actually, to all the product managers at Facebook. And these classes started out with just three or five people. And suddenly towards the end, it was like 30, 50 people starting each time. And each time I taught this class, I realized I remember what it was like to feel alone at the very end. I said, if you ever need a friend, if you ever need a voice, if you ever just need somebody where you need an ally, something went wrong or something you want to ask, just ping me and I will make time. And I kind of said this offhand and I said at the end of every class. And suddenly over the course of eight years, and I started when I taught the new hire class at Facebook, and I still do this, by the way. I have an open door policy and I still connect with people, a couple people a week. You know, I have talked to over a thousand people, you know, mostly women over that time. And you realize that there are a lot of people in this world who feel really alone. They feel like they don't have a friend, they don't have a listening ear. And this open door policy is connected with me with such incredible people, many of whom it's hard to remember the details of having met them. And Many years later, one woman said, I just went back and got my graduate degree, and they didn't even know that I never spoke up. So thank you for telling me how to speak up and to really show up. And I just thought, wow, that is such an incredible testimony of what I said about my mission statement. Right. Leaving everyone better for having met me. And it's just so incredible to see the journeys, years later, of words that you toss off that you don't even remember saying other people remember. And it's been such a blessing to. To be a part of so many people's lives.

Yeah, man, I can't. It's hard to think of a more practical way to show the difference that Christ makes in our lives. Like, other people would look at it like, this is crazy. You're killing your productivity. Apologies like, this have got to be extremely rare. Like, intern could theoretically get on your Calendar as the CEO of Ancestry.com. that's insane.

But I don't know.

Like, I think it shows in a powerful way that you love and care for people beyond what they can do for you. Right.

Well, I think, you know, the Bible, it says what we do for the least of these.

Right.

That is our witness. Not the powerful, but those who have less. And so I think that that's really important. It's, you know, it's not something I can do a ton of anymore, but, you know, still just putting aside half an hour a week and spending 15 minutes with someone who just needs a listening ear. That's all it is. And often I still do it today when I'm commuting places, when I'm on a walk. It's just an opportunity for me to reach out to somebody and say, you know what? I care, even if no one else feels like they do. And I can't always solve the problems. But so many times my only work is to offer a mirror and a listening ear for somebody who's hurting or is struggling with something.

Yeah. And most of the time, people don't necessarily want their problem solved. They just want a friend and somebody to see them as a human being. Right?

Yes. So many times. It's just human connection is so important. And I did this through the pandemic. I actually did a lot more during the pandemic. I did a lot of walking. And, you know, so many people are really struggling with. With juggling home and work. A lot of women have asked me, like, should I quit my job? You know, I feel like I'm failing at work and home, you know, or I'M facing this situation at work where I feel like, you know, I've been sidelined. Like, what do I do? And just having a person who said, you know what, I hear you, and I might not be able to solve the problem, but let me reflect on it with you. And I've met such incredible people this way.

I love it. I'm going to put this out there as a challenge to anyone who's got significant power within their organizations or not to model Dev here. I think it's a really great practice.

Well, the part I do want to touch on is I started this when I was teaching that class, but I wasn't powerful. I might have had, what, two or three people reporting to me. It was, you know, you don't have to be powerful to be a listening ear. And so you don't have to be powerful to be a great witness and to be a friend.

Yeah, that's a good word. So that same speech I referenced, you said that you are a quote, master tent maker and an okay Christian, which I love so much. What do you mean by this? Explain what you mean.

Well, I think sometimes when they ask Christians to speak at these events, they ask. Ask people who are very prominent who happen to be Christians, too.

Sure. Right, right.

And the best Christians I know are not necessarily the most successful in their career in the traditional sense, you know, but they are the ones who labor Day to day. And I see that some of the best Christians I have ever met are those who do not seek the limelight or not seeking promotion, are giving of themselves in different ways. And so I feel like sometimes in these, in these conferences, you know, that we're asked to speak. It's wonderful to share the stories of people who have had an incredible career who are also Christian. And that's what I say, which is. And I told my husband, I said that, I said, like, you know, it turns out I'm a pretty good tent maker, but I'm just an okay Christian and I feel unequipped to share my story with so many people because of that.

Yeah. But you point out something really important though, right? Like, we're living at a time in history where the world highly values master tent making. And obviously we're using tent making in the context of Poland, just the thing that we do for pay. But I, I think because of that, that should lead us as Christians to flock into these industries and businesses that we sometimes deem, quote, unquote, secular because they'll be open to what we believe and what we have to say. If we can build a really great tent, right?

Yes. Well, I think that we are welcome because if the work that we do is useful to the world and, you know, touches others, who's going to say no to that? And that is your opportunity to be a great witness with your actions. You know, I often say no one ever shouted anyone else into heaven. Instead, like, really living your life in such a way that people are curious about what you believe, that is such a much more powerful witness. For me, it's really about living my life in a way that I would be proud and that I can answer for one day.

Hey, I want to go back to something you mentioned previously. You were a civil engineering major, is that right?

Yes.

Yeah. And I've heard that that you thought for a little bit there of being an architect because you were so inspired by the great cathedrals in Europe, which I agree. I think they're incredible. And you shared in this speech, I keep referencing that those cathedrals are just this beautiful picture of what our work is like today. Would you mind sharing that analogy with our listeners? Because I thought it was really beautiful.

You know, I got an architectural engineering certificate. So later, after getting, you know, getting my environmental engineering, I was studying that, but I got a certificate because I considered going to architecture school. And I just remember this story. And this has really stuck with me, which is, you know, a man walks up to you. He's watching these workers, and these workers are chiseling at stone. And, you know, he goes to the first man and he says, what are you doing? And he's like, you know, I'm creating a stone, right? I'm making a brick to put in. And he said, okay. And he walks. The second man. The second man is doing the same thing. And he said, what are you doing? And the man's like, I'm building part of the wall, right? I'm building a wall, which is great. And then he walks to the third man, then he says, what are you doing? And it looks like they're all doing the same thing. And this man is radiant, and he shines light in his eyes, and he says, I'm building a cathedral in the honor of God. But they're all. All doing the same work. And so how you look at the work that you do every single day, you know, are you building something that is, you know, a witness to others? Are you just, you know, merely making a stone? And I think that, you know, how you look at your work matters a lot, not just the work that you do.

Yeah. And I. I love that I think NT Wright shared this analogy somewhere a long time ago. Maybe that's where I'm remembering this from. But you also, like, nobody remembers the names of who built these great cathedrals in Europe. But that's okay. Like, the point wasn't that their name was remembered. The point was that they contributed in a small way to the greater glory of God. Amen.

Yes, absolutely.

Deb, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

Well, I recently read the conversation by Dr. Robert Livingston, and it's the uncomfortable conversation around race that I wish we could have. And so I really recommend you read that book. It is an incredible book about things that I think are really hard for the church to wrestle with. And I think it's worth wrestling with those things. I love the book Quiet.

Yeah.

So good.

An amazing book. And I had. She reached out to me on LinkedIn and I just connected with her. But. But she's such an incredible author. But she talks about how the world, even churches, favor those who speak up the most and are actually marginalizing or sidelining those who are quiet and how we can be great allies to those who are quiet, how those who are quiet can be such powerful forces in the world. And she talks about in all the different places, whether it's business school, in schools as well as at churches, and all these places in the workplace as well. And so I love those two books and I recommend them to everybody.

Yeah, Quiet is so great. How can we, in the context so like, apply this to business for a second. You got some business leaders listening. How can they encourage the quieter, more introverted members of their team to speak up?

I always ask people, you know, when you actually set up a meeting, are you thinking about hearing all the voices? Because you might be missing 50% of the great ideas in the room. And when I challenge other business leaders about that, they. It just never occurred to them because we have this, we call it popcorn style of speaking, right? When somebody has an idea, it pops, right? And. And it favors those. And I wrote this article called the Secret Bias no One Talks about it is so much the, you know, those who can speak and discuss and debate on a dime are given most of the airspace and we're missing tremendous ideas from people who just need time. And one of those most incredible product leaders I ever worked with said to me, you know, because I asked her why she didn't speak up more, and she said, I'm a processor. By the time I've processed and thought of what to say. The conversation has moved on. And so I actually wrote this article with tips on how leaders can actually change the environment to make it possible to get all the ideas out. So one is, you know, send out pre reads so people who need time to process have a chance to do that if they choose to do so. The second one is actually going around the room telling everybody we're going to vote, but we're going to go around the room and do it. We're going to talk and we're going to go around the room and hear all the ideas. Another way is actually we. I do these votes in documents ahead of time so people can write down what they want to say, yes or no, or, you know, not now. And then they actually write notes as to, like, what their opinion is. And so if you see something, an idea that it was missed, you can actually go back and call on them and say, hey, I saw your idea in the document last night. Why don't you share it with the rest of the group? So really, these small bias interrupters can be so powerful to actually opening the door to those who, whose voices you aren't hearing every single day.

Yeah, it's really good. I especially love the tip about the pre read. Jeff Bezos instilled this policy at Amazon years ago. Right. No PowerPoints. You gotta write a memo and give everybody time to read the memo before the discussion begins. And I just think that's really, really great. Hey, Deb, who would you like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel of Jesus Christ should influence the work we do in the world?

Well, I love. I just started the book by Albert Tate and I think that he would be incredible. I don't know if you've had him on yet, but I think he would be an incredible speaker. I have had a chance to meet him a couple times and now I just started his book. And he's just somebody who brings such light into the world.

Albert and I are speaking right after each other, right next to each other in a couple of weeks at the right now media conference. So I'll have to extend an invitation for Albert to come on. That's a great answer.

You bring a microphone and you can record him.

There you go. Hey, so, Deb, you're talking to an audience of mere Christians who are master tent makers and. Okay, Christians.

Right.

What's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate before we sign off?

The only thing I'd say is you are bearing testimony witness every single day with every action that you have. And so, you know, are you salt and light or not? And you know, are the decisions you make, the things that you say a blessing to others or something that's tearing them down and taking them further away? And I ask because, you know, when we say salt and light, it's really about, you know, really looking at every single day that you live towards. Are you leaving people better off having met you? And that is what God has made us, brought us here on earth to do is to build up, not tear down. And so I hope that as you think about all the things that happen, you know, regardless of, of how you feel and every day that you remember that, it's great.

Deb, I want to commend you for the exceptional, redemptive restorative work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. Thank you for using your powerful voice on behalf of those who. Voices aren't as loud. Right. Who are quieter. And thank you for reminding us of the eternal significance of our work and that every action speaks a testimony about what we believe. Guys, Deb's new book is Take back your power. I've read most of it, it's terrific. And hey, where's your Substack URL? Where's your Substack newsletter, Deb?

It's deblow substack.com so really easy to get to it.

There you go. Deb, thanks for joining us.

Thank you so much.

Loved that episode. It's going in my archive of episodes I'm gonna force my girls to listen to in the future. So grateful for Deb and her work, guys. If you've got a guest that you'd to love, love to see here on the Mere Christians podcast, let me know@jordanrayner.com contact and please feel free to nominate yourself. I know that's weird. I know it's awkward. Here I am giving you permission to do it. Some of the best episodes of the show come from listeners like you. Speaking of, thank you for listening week in, week out. It's been amazing to see what God is doing with this show, with this command community, and I'm just grateful to be a part of it. See you guys next week.

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