Dee Ann Turner (Fmr. VP of Talent at Chick-fil-A)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most masterful work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I'm hosting a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We're talking about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. Guys, today's episode is off the charts. Great. I'm so excited to share this conversation with Deann Turner. She spent 33 years as the Vice President of Talent at Chick Fil A, responsible for hiring thousands of people across the brand. In other words, she knows a thing or two about hiring. And as I've said many times on this podcast, hiring is the most important thing you do as a leader or an entrepreneur. I also love that deanne was Chick Fil A's first ever female vp. She is going to be a great hero for my three girls as they grow up. Man, there were so many things that I could highlight about this conversation, but here's a few. We talked about my previously untold experience going through the hiring process at Chick Fil?

A.

That's right. For about 30 minutes there, I thought I might take an executive job years ago. We talked about the importance of choosing a spouse who will collaborate rather than compete with us professionally. And we talked about the power of a story. You hear a lot within the halls of Chick Fil? A. What's your story? And the power of how that question can create empathy and understanding. A very timely topic. Please enjoy this phenomenal conversation filled with loads of wisdom with D.N. turner. D.N.

Turner.

I told you the other day, I'm doing like 15 podcast episodes this week, which is insane. This is the one I've really been looking forward to. So thank you so much for being here.

Oh, Jordan, it's funny, but this is the one I've really been looking forward to. So it's my pleasure to be with you for sure. Well, good.

We're setting the bar really high here, so. So here's the deal. I read Bet on Talent, your newest book. I loved the book. I thought it was terrific. And I really love the story you tell at the beginning about how you landed your first job at Chick Fil A. I want our listeners to hear this. Can you share the story?

Absolutely. And thanks for reading Bet on Talent. I appreciate that. And I do start off telling the story of how I ended up at Chick Fil A. And I was in the advertising business. I had been a journalism major in college. I'd always wanted to be a writer. And at the time, during a. A recession when I got out of school. At that point, too, the best place to get a job for a journalism major was in advertising. So that's what I was doing. My husband was a pastor at a church just down the street from the Chick Fil A support center. And we needed to move closer. I was working on the other side town. We needed to move into the community where we were serving. So he suggested that I apply for a job at Chick Fil A. And we knew some people there. And so I went ahead and applied. And two weeks later, I received a letter that said, thanks, but we don't have anything that fits your interest and background.

How I write.

I was like, okay. I told my husband, that's that. I applied. That didn't work out. I think I'll just stay where I am for a little while. He said, not so fast. He said, apply again. So I did, and two weeks later, I got another version of that same letter. So then I was intrigued, was like, wait a minute. This company's turned me down twice.

Now you want it? Now you want it?

Now I want it. So I start pursuing them and calling them constantly and sending letters. Because, remember, this is back in the day. So everything. Snail mail and phone calls. And so I'm pursuing them for about six months, and a lady pulls into the church, has a flat tire where my husband's the pastor. And she comes in and she asked to use the telephone. Remember, no cell phones in this, right? He says, no need. I'll change the tire for you. So he changes the tire. When he's done, she gives him a coupon for a free Chick Fil A sandwich. He said, oh, do you work at Chick Fil A? And she said, well, I do, but I've resigned. My husband's been relocated. And so he said, what department do you work in? And she said, advertising. And he ushered her out of the church, jumped on the phone and called me. And I jumped on the phone and called Chick Fil A, the nice people in human resources. And I said, I understand you have a job in advertising. I'd like to interview for it. And so I think they were really tired of me pestering them.

Right. They just wanted you to go away. They're like, all right, fine, we'll hire you.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, let's just get her in for an interview. So I interviewed for about six months, this long process. And I finally made it to the final part of the process, and I'm in the interview with the then vice president of human resources. And he said, so I have an idea that they're going to offer you this job in advertising, but I have a position here in human resources you might be interested in. And why don't you think about it over the weekend? So I thought about it over the weekend, and I decided that I really like those people in HR because they're paid to be nice. So we.

Right, right. Exactly right.

And I thought they were interesting. And I'm the kind of person always likes a new venture.

Yeah.

So I said, well, I'll go do this for a couple of years and then I'll know where the jobs are in the company and I'll go back to marketing.

Yeah.

Well, 33 years later, when I retired from Chick Fil A, I never made it to marketing, but I had an amazing calling along the way.

That's amazing. I don't think you went into that much detail in the book. That's really good. That's a really rich story. What's the main lesson that you take? I'm sure there's a bunch. Right. But if you could pinpoint one lesson that you took away from that initial experience of getting that initial job, maybe. Maybe that you share with young people. What is it?

Yeah. I think that what was great about that opportunity is Chick Fil a was. I mean, they weren't a startup, but they were young and very entrepreneurial and which is what a lot of young people are in that situation. I have a son that's in a very similar situation right now with a young company. And what's exciting about it is there's lots of opportunity to take responsibility. And the boundaries sometimes are not as clear as to what's your job and what is not your job. If you see something that needs to be done, jump in and get it done. Yeah, that's what happened to me. Eighteen months after I took that job, my boss resigned, which was really sort of unexpected, and he went and started his own company. And during that time, he had taught me a lot about hr. And another thing I don't really talk about in the book is that it took Chick Fil a a long time to figure out what to do with me. They really contemplated, okay, well, the guy she worked for is gone, so what do we have her do now? And they had all kinds of ideas of what I could do. And what they finally said is, well, what she's doing seems pretty important, so let's just let her keep doing it.

Interesting.

And that's what I had done, is just taken on the responsibility, actually for something that wasn't going very well. I found a problem to solve. Yeah. Other piece of advice for young people or anybody, but especially the younger people who are starting off in their careers, if you want to be valuable, find a problem to solve and solve it.

That's it. So Carly Fiorina actually talked about that when she was on the podcast a few months ago. She's like, find the problem that you're closest to and just solve it. By the way, your advice is lining up very well with some of the best career advice I've ever heard. I think it was from Sheryl Sandberg. As you could tell, I'm a big fan of powerful women. It was, it was basically like, if you're being asked to get on a rocket ship, don't ask which seat you're going to sit in. Right. Like, if you're finding an organization that's poised for massive growth, just take any role you can because there's going to be untold opportunities within that organization. So that's how she thought about Facebook. Sounds like that's how you thought about Chick Fil a. It's really, really smart. You mentioned in the book, though, that you thought, you know, you'd go to work for a few years and then have kids and then stay at home and be a good pastor's wife. What changed your mind?

Well, I really thought that my calling was to be in some form of full time ministry. And yeah, before I married my husband, and then when I married him, I thought, well, that's it, you know, I'm going to be the pastor's wife. Which in some ways I wasn't very good at that because I wasn't your traditional pastor's wife at the time, you know, who could sing and play the piano and do all those things. And so that's another story for another day. Jordan. But what happened in the meantime? And even when I first went to Chick Fil a and I was working, I felt like I had abandoned the call that God had placed on my heart. And then one day after I really got into what I was doing. I realized that my calling was to help other people find their calling. And that made all the difference for me from then on because I had such purpose. And to see people come in and especially the Chick Fil a franchisees, that was, for me, that was my favorite job of all time for over 20 years. That was one of my major responsibilities, was selected franchisees. And to see people come in with a dream and put that dream in action and to see them over decades become so successful and to see the impact that they have on their communities because of the way they serve their employees and the people in the community, that was so fulfilling to my calling.

Did you get to a place where, where you recognized, you know what? My work is ministry. My work is service.

Right.

Maybe not in the traditional sense of quote unquote, full time ministry, but this is ministry. Did you ever get to that place mentally?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That was exactly where I found myself. Is that understanding that what I was doing and really going beyond that as it became a leader, the stewardship, responsibility of talent and understanding that that is a ministry in and of itself is stewarding talent and helping people reach their full potential and be who God made them to be and do the work that God made them to do, definitely became my ministry.

I love that idea of the ministry of stewarding talent. That's really good. Hey, so one of me and my wife's best friends, her name's Bethany. You are a celebrity to Bethany. No, no joke. I, I, you may not think of yourself a celebrity, but Bethany's in hr. She's read all your books. And talking to her the other day I was like, oh yeah, I'm talking to Dan Turner. What do you want me to ask? And she said that she's read something of yours. It may have been on your blog about the importance of having a supportive spouse as you pursue mastery as something vocationally. I know that's been true for, for me personally. I'm curious what advice you give young people, especially young women, on this topic.

Sure. Well, first of all, hi Bethany. Secondly, thanks for reading my books. And Bethany is real up to speed because that blog post was just posted last week.

I'm telling you, she's a super fan.

So she's on it. Here's the thing that I give advice and you know, you can look back and see a lot of choices that you made that at the time you didn't realize the importance of them when you're choosing to get married. You know, that's a pretty big decision. I call it the second most important decision I ever made behind giving my life to Christ would be the first. And the second is the choice I made in spouse. And. But we were really young at the time, and I really didn't understand the gravity of that situation because, one, I didn't see what my future was. I thought my future was all about his career, not about mine. But I picked somebody, chose somebody that is a servant, and he's a servant leader, and he serves his family. And, you know, he didn't just serve his church, but he served everybody around him. And, you know, he was a man who really loved his wife as Christ loved the church. And so he's been incredibly supportive of me. And I know women who've chosen spouses, and both of them are pretty high powered. And it becomes a competition.

Yeah.

And I'm so grateful that my husband chose to collaborate and to compliment me rather than to compete with me. And I really felt like if I. If I had any regrets, I would say that he was probably more supportive of me than I was of him. And I didn't realize it at the time. I had some things to learn about that too. I could have never accomplished anything without him. And it was really his servant's heart who was willing to share all of the tasks of raising the children and caring for the home. And, you know, we really partnered together. And it doesn't always start off that way, by the way. Really started, like I said, with a focus on his career. And then as mine grew, he returned that focus. And then as we grew even more, it became about how we mutually support each other. And it's a growth thing that happens over the course of a marriage. We've been married 37 years. Just a few weeks ago, had our anniversary, and congratulations. It grows over time. And there are different seasons that his career needed to be the focus, different seasons that mine did. And. And we learn that rhythm of supporting each other. And I just can't imagine, I mean, I couldn't. I couldn't do the things I do today if it were not for him.

I think it's helpful to think about it as a choice between competition and collaboration. I think you put that really eloquently. It is a conscious choice I think all of us have to make in marriage, especially when both spouses are really ambitious for what they're doing in the world. So, Deanne, you spent 33 years at Chick Fil A. I'm curious if you know this off the top of your head, how many people were hired across the brand during your tenure at Chick Fil A.

It's funny that you say that. I guess I should have figured that out before I left. But I do know it's in the thousands.

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, I mean, clearly, the point is, clearly more than 10,000 hours of practice hiring. I want to spend a lot of time talking about this because I wholeheartedly believe what you say in the book that, quote, people, decisions are the most important decisions, decisions a leader makes. I preach this all the time. Can you talk about why, from your perspective?

Well, I think everything that's foundational to everything, I mean, you can have. And that's really what the. The title of the book, Bet on Talent. I mean, you can have a great strategy, you can have great marketing and advertising, you can have great real estate practices, but it's talent that has to execute all of those things. And so without great talent, nothing else really works very well. And so it's foundational, actually, I believe the culture is foundational. And then you stack extraordinary talent on top of that, and then it's your executional principles and practices on top of that that create the formula to win the hearts of customers. Yeah.

And in my experience, people decisions are also the ones with exponential compound interest. Right. So, you know, if you hire a players early on, they recruit other A players.

Right.

And the impact just continues to spiral over and over again. Has that been your experience?

Yeah, it's like Liz Wiseman talks about the multiplier effect.

Yeah.

Yeah, you get. And that's what Truett did at Chick Fil A. From the very beginning, he surrounded himself with great talent. And that attracted more talent, created success, which. That attracts more talent, so that it just has an exponential effect over time.

I've always perceived a debate about hiring that I'd love your perspective on. Right. So there's one school of thought that says, hire as many of the smartest people you can, get them on the bus and then figure out where they should sit. Right. And there's another school of thought that's like, no, identify what open seats you have on the bus. Go out and find the best people to fill those specific seats. Where do you land on this?

I think it's the power of the. And in this situation. So the way I look at it is I want to find talent and select talent for specific roles that I have because that creates clarity in an organization, that's really important, that there's clarity. But at the same time, when I'm selecting that talent, I want to be sure that they have the Competency, not only for the very role that I'm selecting them for for that time, but I'm looking ahead maybe to jobs that haven't even been created yet. And does this person have the kind of firepower and competency that they could move to all kinds of roles in the organization? So, and that's kind of tricky. I'll give you the example of a Chick Fil A franchisee. And the way I would look at this at one time, as we expanded into. You might not know or remember this, Jordan, but Chick Fil A was all in shopping malls.

I do remember when I was a kid, yeah, they were all in malls.

And so then in 1986, chick fil a opened the first freestanding location. And they had the vision to see beyond that. This mall thing was going to go away and we got to get out of that. And so they started making this transition. Well, it had a lot of impact on talent selection because the more tenured franchisees were getting the new freestanding opportunities and they were coming out of malls that were declining. And so my job at the time was to find somebody who could make an opportunity out of this declining mall, possibly low income situation. But at the same time, I had to realize because of the way the organization was going and the strategy was to move these franchisees into the new locations. Not so much outside talent at the time, but we're going to move them into a freestanding location. Well, a freestanding location is far more complicated, requires more leadership and competency than a mall location. Just the footprint size, the drive through, add all that dining room, add all that complexity, and you need a different level of leadership competency. So we had to project as we were selecting talent, we had to project and go, okay, we're going to find this person who will do this for now, but we have to see in them the ability to later run a $5 million business or perhaps two or three chick fil a freestanding restaurants. So I think it's both. I think you're looking for talent to build your specific role, but you're looking for people who have competencies that can grow with your organization.

That's really good. So I've been dying to ask you this very nitty gritty question. How much do you care about GPA when you're hiring somebody?

That is an interesting question. When I, when I first started out, people put a lot of emphasis on gpa. And in fact, this will come out in my next book that releases next year, Crush youh Career.

Yeah.

And it's to, it's really, to your audience, Jordan, it's 20 to 35 year olds that are in that stage of their career. And I, and I talk about this issue coming out of college. For me, the most important thing about. And most companies don't have GPA on the application anymore for all kinds of legal reasons. But we did for a long time. My biggest concern on there was that it was correct and for $2 you can get a transcript from colleges or at that time that's what it was. And for me it was an honesty check.

Yeah.

And I mean, I know sometimes you make a mistake, you might put 3.4 and it was a 3.3 or 3.2. But I'm talking if it's way off. Yeah. Big grade, you know, a whole grade level disparity. It was just a quick honesty test.

So I don't know that I've ever talked about this publicly, but like I care a lot and actually I'm caring more and more the more I hire. Right. I've probably been directly responsible for far less hires than you, but let's call it 100 people. Right. And the more I hire.

Yeah.

For me, one, it's the honesty check that is really important. But it's way better than like test scores. It just shows to me grit and ambition from an early age that's really, really tough to teach. Right. Because GPA doesn't just show smarts, it shows like work ethic. Right.

And it.

Listen, there's no perfect indicator for predicting the success of somebody enroll. But I don't know, I like it. I kind of stole that from Google. Like they prioritize GPA like pretty heavily.

I think it's a great indication of work ethic. But what I'm concerned about, when we're selecting and we use this a lot, I mean especially in highly technical jobs, we were looking for the best and the brightest. But I also want to be sure I understand what's behind it. Because if I have a student, and especially when it comes to the difference between. I'm not talking about A students and C students as much. I am the difference between A and B. Yeah. Because if I have a person who is a college athlete, I know what their work ethic was. If I have some. And you know, so they had a B average instead of an A average and they, and they had that or somebody who worked their way through college paying for everything and they had a B average instead of an A average. Some of those things tell me a lot about that person in Terms of work ethic too.

I completely agree.

So I always like to. For me, whatever the data says, I want to know the story behind it. It can be a gpa, it can be somebody's job, track record, it can be all kinds of issues. But I want to understand the story before I make a conclusion. I will tell you. When I first started out, it was all about the data. You know, I'd look at something and go, oh, you know, they had three jobs in 10 years. Now that's common now, but it wasn't then. And it's like why they moved around so much. And I had all these criteria that would just screen somebody out. And as I grew in my experience, I realized everybody has a story. And the best candidates are going to be when I really understand the story and put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Sometimes the story didn't support the data, and sometimes it actually did support the data. And you're like, okay, no, that doesn't work. But I think that's really important to have a really holistic look at evaluating talent.

Yeah, I completely agree. So in Bet on Talent, you offer some amazing tips on interviewing. In my opinion, that section alone is more than worth the price of admission for the book. And my favorite tip is that you guys at Chick Fil A would talk people out of the job. At the very end of the interview process, you would try to talk people out of the job. Can you explain why you did that?

Sure. Well, we were looking for people who wanted a long term relationship. Now, early on to Truet, Kathy, the founder of Chick Fil A, he used to have this thing where you'd go into your final interview with him and he, he would look at you and he would look at the hiring manager and he would say, okay, I hope you two like each other because you're stuck with each other till you die or retire. Till one of you dies or retires. Well, that practice and all the HR people just shuddered when they heard that. And I did too. So we moved away from that ideal, if you will, and that language. But there was a spirit there of having a long term relationship. Knowing that, and especially today, knowing that people aren't necessarily going to spend a whole career, but we also aren't looking for people who want to come in for a couple years and move, move on. That was the reason why, because we were only 50% of the decision. The other 50% was the candidate.

Yeah.

And so if they could be talked out of the job before they ever started, then it wasn't the right thing for them. And it would be better for all of us, I think, about candidates relocating to Atlanta from somewhere else. And they've quit a great job to come there. They've packed up the family, they've. Everybody's been turned upside down, and they make the move. And then six months later, so, oh, I didn't really want to do this. Well, we've spent a lot of money on training, a ton of money on onboarding, because Chick Fil? A invest heavily in that.

Yeah.

And so we. We've spent all that money and time on that, and then they've given up a part of their life, whatever it was, whether it was personal or professional, that wasn't a good fit. So, you know, it rarely ever happened. Maybe one or two times in the course of my whole career, but it really made everybody stop and think and go, okay, are we really in this? Is this what we really want to do?

So I don't think I've ever shared this story on the podcast before, but this happened to me. So my listeners know I spent my career as a serial entrepreneur, but years ago, in between startups, for about 30 minutes, I thought about going to working as an executive at a big company. Very, very short list of companies. Right. It was basically like Google and Chick Fil A. Right. And I. There was a role at Chick Fil? A that I was being recruited for. I spent a whole day at HQ interviewing for the role. All was going really well. Very clear that we were on a track to getting married here. And the last interview, this guy who would have been my. Would have been my hiring manager, explained in detail why I would hate the job. He was basically like, Jordan, you're, like, way too entrepreneurial. We took seven years to launch Salads. Can you operate in that environment? And he was right. He was right. And I was so grateful that he talked me out of it. And it ended up putting me one step closer to the path that God really had intended for me all along. But I've done ever since then. Anytime I make it a hire, I try to talk somebody out of it. I think it's. I think it's really, really brilliant. So, Deanne, in your role as VP of talent, you also oversaw Chick Fil A's diversity and inclusion initiatives. We're recording this in the middle of the righteous national outcry over the murder of George Floyd and other people of color. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs and leaders are really struggling with asking and answering the practical questions that come out of this. So here's one for you. Not an easy question, but what can those of us who spend a lot of our time hiring be doing to identify some of these hidden biases and eliminate them as we build our teams?

Well, it's a big question. You know, one of the things that has been interesting at this time and American history for me is to stop and think and go, I'm not in that environment anymore. And, you know, sometimes people ask me, what would you do? And I have to answer very truthfully. I'm really not sure.

Yeah, but here you can't be when you're no longer in the chair.

Yeah, you just can't be because it's an ever evolving situation and, and it's very difficult. But here's just something I learned along the way and, and I probably can share it in a story with you that I actually wrote about this too. But first of all, start by this principle of treating everybody with honor, dignity, and respect. The people that work for you, the people you work for, the customers, whoever it is, it's just this basic thing of basic principle, that's basic human consideration, is to treat everybody with honor, dignity, and respect. Now, the other part of that is, what can we do as leaders? I think I go back to understanding people, people's stories. So I had this employee that we were very different in a lot of ways, and we were really friends, too. She wasn't just my employee, she was my friend. And we were way on a business trip and it was a number of years ago before an important election, and we were sitting at dinner, I can remember where we were. We were in Chicago. And I said, hey, help me understand your perspective. Yeah, why are you supporting this particular candidate? And she began to tell me her story. It went back into her childhood. It went back to experiences that she had had. And, you know, when we were done, it didn't change my vote, but boy, did I understand why she had her perspective and respected so much what her perspective was. And it wasn't about the person. It was about a platform that had helped her become who she. She was. And it was a totally different experience than I had. And, you know, when I listened to her story, then she listened to mine, and she understood why I supported the platform. I did. And, you know, to this day, we're great friends. But here was the important thing that came out of that, because we listened to each other's stories and decided that even though we couldn't agree, we understood together, she and I influenced the diversity at our organization. And it changed a Lot of things because we were able to collaborate together. And I applaud her most because she was calm and patient and led me to an understanding. She influenced me tremendously. And she probably had the single most influence at the company on shifts in diversity and inclusion.

Wow. Yet stories create empathy, right? When you can understand the story behind a particular belief or particular opinion, it just creates understanding. It might not change your mind, but it creates empathy. And seeing people for what they are as the product of stories, as human beings. And that what's your story? Question is so powerful.

I.

In a separate visit to Chick Fil? A hq, the company that I sold my first company to is a digital agency. We had a pitch. We were pitching software to Chick Fil A's digital team. And we sat down, we had the PowerPoint ready to go. And the first question, Michael McCathern. It was me with Michael McCather. I'll never forget Michael's like, hey, before we start, what's your story? And we were like. Both me and my partner were, like, so taken aback. Like, what a bizarre question to start out a pitch. But I so appreciated it, right, because he was. He was trying to understand our perspective that led up to the meeting. But I think he was just trying to, like, get to know us as people, right? And see us as people and I think as leaders, especially in the wake of these events. Just asking that simple what's your story? Question can be really, really powerful.

You know, Jordan, let me add something, please. As we. And I've been thinking a lot about this. It's like, how do you cultivate that in a virtual environment? Because I've been thinking a lot about organizations that I work with that have really strong cultures, and how can I help them do this? And I think. I think you still have to do that sometimes in the virtual world. You know, we're getting on our screens, and you got 12 faces up on the grid, and you're having a meeting, and you're getting to the point. But you have to still take the time to start by asking stories. And one of the ways I advise one of my clients to do that, I said, hey, don't forget. Don't just jump right into. Okay, here's the update status on Covid this week and how it's impacting our business. But statistics stop and go. Okay, guys, tell me about your personal success this week. You know, tell me. Tell me the high. Do the high, low thing. Do something that connects everybody to say, hey, there's something going on besides behind this computer screen. In everybody's life right now.

Have you read Trillion Dollar Coach?

I have not.

Do you know the story of Bill Campbell in Silicon Valley?

I don't think so.

Oh, my gosh. You got to read this book. So Bill Campbell is a legend. He's probably. He's easily the most influential executive coach of all time. He coached Steve Jobs, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Eric Schmidt, Mark Zuckerberg, any blue chip CEO in the Valley in the last 40 years, Bill Campbell coached him. And this book, written by Eric Schmidt, current chairman of Alphabet and Google, shares all of his wisdom. And one of the things they talk about is how Bill would always start staff meetings intentionally talking about personal stuff. So he would talk about, like, trip reports, like, oh, where were you guys last weekend? Like, you guys went on vacation, like, whatever. Like, talk about it. That's really important. Even now in this. Especially now in this virtual, increasingly remote world that we're living in. Dan, what is. You're a highly productive person. You're not a Chick fil a anymore, but you're still very, very busy. I'm curious what your day looks like these days, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. What is a typical day in the life of D.N. turner?

What, like, so some of the habits I've really carried over and some are very different because of the flexibility that I now have in my own business. But the first thing I do every morning, usually before I get out of the bed and certainly once I grab my cup of coffee, is I have my prayer and quiet time.

Yeah.

And that was a habit that I have often encouraged people to do. It was life changing and career changing for me when I started dedicating my first hour of the day.

Why was it career. I want to dive deeper. Why was it career changing for you?

Well, when I was a young mother of three young children, in the height of my career, my life, as you can imagine, was upside down. Crazy. Yeah.

I'm right there right now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean, you know, 90 to nothing, I was like a marine. You know, we do more before 6am than most people do.

Exactly. Yeah.

So my morning would be jump out of the bed, get myself ready, get those kids ready, get them fed. At one point, they were going three different directions because of their age differences and do all that and get to the office by 8:30. And so I was pretty hairy and stressed out by the time I got to work.

Yeah.

And my boss is now the president of Chick fil a. He pulled me aside and gave Me the best advice of my entire career. That changed me personally and professionally. He said, deanne. And he did it in the most. He just had this way of. Of giving you negative feedback without it sounding so negative.

Yeah.

And he said, hey, I don't. I don't know what you need to do every day to kind of arrive, you know, with the highest level of positivity. Basically, he's telling me I was being a negative person.

Right.

And he said, but you might want to give that some thought. That was the way he put it, you know, and. And then I had to go, now what is he really telling me?

Right, right, right.

He's really telling you you're showing up negative.

Exactly.

And so I did a couple. And he told me what he did. He told me about his morning routine of prayer time, of reading, of exercise. And so I incorporated that and I made a commitment to get up an hour before anybody else in my household. And at one time, that was extremely early in the morning. Thankfully, it's a little bit less now, but a little bit later now. But I mean, it wouldn't be uncommon 4:30 or 5:00 clock in the morning to make this work. I would get up and have that quiet time. And it changed me. It changed me so much that by the end of my career, sometimes I was actually criticized by being about being too positive. But I did. It changed. I spent that hour with God every morning and with myself and doing the things I needed to do, get myself ready before everybody else. And when I got to the office, I was a totally different person.

So I have the. I have the exact same habit one hour before anyone else wakes up. Solitude.

And I love it. It just puts it. And now, Jordan, what happened to me is, you know, I used to sort of resent that I had to come out of that quiet time and get to the office. And so now some days I just get to, you know, depending on what I have going on, I get to extend that time, which is great. But after. After prayer time is exercise, because I want to get all those endorphins going. That is going to lead me to the third most important thing I do now, which is the third thing I do is create. So pray, exercise, then create. My creative time is in the morning, and I want to give my best creative time to my writing work, to my preparation for talks I'm going to do for anything like that. And the next is engage. And so that's my podcast or with my clients that I'm going to have a zoom meeting. With that day, I'm going to take all that solitude I've just had, plus the endorphins going and the create time and I'm going to turn that into my time doing these other things. And then in my part of the day, that's not my high energy day, which is late in the day, I'm going to respond and that means that's emails and return phone calls and do those things that don't take quite as much of my creative and mental energy. And then I'm going to relate. I'm going to engage with my family at that time and friends and have that dinner time and that after dinner time for the relating part of my life. And then lastly, I'm going to retreat and I'm going to spend a few minutes alone again before I retire for the night. I'm going to get the end of the day prayer time and the other things I need to calm my mind so that I get a good night's sleep. Because as we know, sleep now is so important to our health. So my day is pray, exercise, write, or create, engage, respond, relate, and then retreat.

Wink, wink. That sounds like a great outline for a book, Dan.

You know, I haven't thought much about it, but as I said it to you, I might have to use that.

That is the exact rhythm of my days.

Oh, wow.

But I. But I love how eloquently you put it and putting those labels on. I think that helps people wrap their heads around those concepts. That's really good. All right, let's talk about how your faith as a Christ follower influenced the work you did at Chick Fil? A. Chick Fil? A is not an overt, quote, unquote evangelical ministry. You guys are selling chicken. And you mentioned in the book something that I love that Truett Cathy, Chick Fil A's founder, did not believe a company could be labeled, quote, unquote, Christian. I've talked a lot about this. I love this. I'd love to hear you share his and or your thinking as to why this is.

Oh, well, in this case I have to tell you what, what his thoughts were and why that is. I mean, well, actually I heard the former president of Chick Fil? A, Jimmy Collins, he explained it this way. I think he was actually telling my husband this, who said something about Chick Fil? A being a Christian company goes, oh no, we're not a Christian company. We're a company that happens to have. Whose founder based the business on biblical principles. And there happened, man, for that reason, there happened to be a lot of Christians who work here. But companies can't be Christians because.

Amen.

Because Christ died for people, not for a company.

Christ died for people. He died for the world. But businesses don't have souls. Right. They're made up of Christ followers. Right. Which I love that distinction. I think that distinction is really important because a lot of times you're a Christian business and you. Well, one, unfortunately, a lot of times I associate that with mediocrity. And number two, two, it's cheap Christianity. It's putting. It's making all the teas in our logo crosses and slapping fishes on stuff as a. As a marketing differentiator rather than holistically integrating the gospel into every crevice of the organization. I wrote about this in Called To Create. Right. I think one of the ways the Chick Fil A specifically does this is by just crazy commitment to excellence.

Right.

Isn't that an expression of Christian values, Dan?

Oh, I think that's an expression of the kinds of biblical values that Truett founded the business on. And he was known for saying that he didn't find any conflict between biblical principles and good business practice. And excellence was one of the core values that he had and expected. I do think that's a reflection of Christ in our life when we do our work with excellence and we get. I mean, it's scriptural when we do our work as unto the Lord and so.

And so do all things for the glory of God.

Exactly. And I think. And we're doing it at that level, I hope that we're pursuing excellence as part of that.

Amen.

Absolutely.

Well said. So there's some obvious things Chick Fil A does differently because of the faith of its founders. But I'm curious, what would have been different about your role specifically and the talent and culture operations had you and the founders not been devoted followers of Christ?

Well, I think that what would have been different for me, a couple things on a personal level and then on a more global look at things. First of all, you know, for me, what I loved about fulfilling that role specifically at Chick Fil A, is that there was such a belief in the stewardship of talent and this belief that people decisions are the most important decisions. That's not true everywhere. Some organizations say that, but then their behavior doesn't back it up whatsoever. And so, you know, I think that first of all, for me personally, it would have been such a purpose. Purpose. I can say this. It would not have purpose and it would have been meaningless. So I think that that is the Biggest thing is that I think my job would have been very administrative and transactional, but working for an organization whose purpose was to be a positive influence and a faithful steward of all the resources that gave my job meaning. And so that meant for me personally, it's like, okay, first of all, I have to be a faithful steward of the resource, of the talent entrusted to me, also the time and treasure. But specifically for my role, it was the talent. Both the talent we selected and the candidates themselves, which meant sometimes saying no, because I knew it wasn't. I wouldn't be stewarding the resources of the organization well to do that, and I wouldn't be stewarding that person's life well to put them in that role.

I was just going to ask you that. Were there moments where you were like, man, this woman is the right person for Chick Fil A, but Chick Fil A is not right for her. Did that ever come across your mind? Did you ever talk somebody out of a role because of that?

Many times now, you know, I said it only happened a few times, but. And I was thinking, really those final moments all the way through the process. But earlier in the process, there were lots of times I did that because I was looking for a match. I wasn't looking. You know, I wasn't hiring people. I was selecting talent. There's a huge difference.

And what's the difference in your mind? What's the difference?

Hiring people is all about quantity. I got to get this role filled. I got to get. I got to reduce my number of days to hire, which is a metric that a lot of organizations use. I. I just got to get somebody in this vacancy and get this off my plate. But selecting talent, oh, that's competitive advantage. That's totally different. It's about getting the right person with the character that matches the organization and the competency that matches the role and the chemistry that matches the team. Getting that person into the right specific role, that was my number one goal. That was my mission. There are many times that I would see that this person had all the check marks for what I just said about character, competency, and chemistry. But it wasn't the right role. They were not going to be fulfilled. They were going to be disciplined, and I knew they were better suited for something else. And so, yes, many times I told people that early in the process, and in some cases, they came back later for a different role and it was the right fit and it worked out. Sometimes they went on to something else and sent me a letter or an email later and Said you were right and this is why. And this really worked out great for me.

Yeah. So you retired from Chick fil A in 2018, but you are far from retired. You're speaking 50 times a year, you're writing books, you're consulting. I'm curious how your faith specifically informs your view of what we traditionally think of retirement. Like, what's your view on this topic?

For me, and I actually wrote about this in Bet on Talent before I knew I was retiring, which is kind of funny because I think the way I stated is one day I will retire from my corporate career, but I will never retire from my calling. And it's part of what actually led me to retire from Chick Fil A. Had a wonderful career there in an amazing organization and lots of leaders there that I love and a tremendous staff, all of those great things. But the opportunity came about for a voluntary early retirement option for a number of people. 100 people in July of 2018. And it was not something I had really considered at all, but what I found myself in. I was in a meeting one day and by this time I was leading sustainability for Chick Fil A. That was, that was the current role I was in. I left town after 30 years to launch this new function for Chick Fil A. I was sitting in a meeting and we were talking about sustainable practices, which are all very, very important. But all of a sudden I'm looking. Having one of those out of body experiences where I'm looking at myself in the, in the meeting. And I realize that at that moment I was not doing the work God made me to do. I was doing the work he gave me to do. And that's really what I wrote about in Bet on Talent. I always want to do the work he made me to do. And so that's when I made that decision that I'd always wanted to be a writer since I was 8 years old. I had a two book contract from Baker Publishing sitting on my desk waiting for me to sign. And here God was providing me my exit ramp to go do the very work he made me to do. And so my, my biblical view of retirement is that, you know, we may have different jobs along the way, but we never retire from our calling because that's the, the very most important thing he laid on our heart that he picked us specifically to do on our. During our time on this earth.

Yeah, yeah. It just reminds me of Jesus himself on the eve of his crucifixion, praying, I brought you glory on earth Earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. We glorify the father when we finish the work that he created and made us to do. I. I love that and I love your testimony. There are Dan, we always end these conversations with three questions. Number one, which books do you recommend or gift most frequently to others?

The book that I most frequently recommend and give to others is a book called Integrity by Henry Cloud.

Yeah.

And over my years in my corporate career, I had the opportunity to get to know Henry a little bit more personally. And I love most all of his books, but that one I've read probably more times than any book that I own. And I'm one of those. I don't reread a lot of books, as a matter of fact, but this one is a manual for life. And you know, really in our life, if we don't have integrity, if we don't do what we say we're going to do when we say we're going to do it, how we say we're going to do, do it, if we don't do the right thing, even when it's hard, all the rest doesn't matter. That's just a great one that I, I like to share. And my new favorite book is actually this book called Call to Create by Jordan Rayner. I had the opportunity to read it. Fantastic book, Jordan. And I enjoy that so much.

I'll send you a box of books so you can start handing them out to people. I'm really curious who you would most likely to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith influences their work.

I have tried to stay out of the political arena, but I have to tell you, there's somebody I'm so curious about and I know you. I know from reading your books that you had some political.

I came from that world.

And I'm really curious about Mike Pence. Yeah, I've read so much about his faith and I've heard him proclaim that. And he's been sitting in such a precarious position for three years, and I can't imagine all the things that he's seen and experienced and the ways his faith has been challenged. And I publicly haven't seen a chink in the armor yet. So I'm just really, I'm curious about him. I'm curious about what the call God must have put on his life for him to be in the situation he's in and experience all that he's experiencing. So that's just somebody that. Who professes a strong fate that I'm really curious about these days.

I Think that would be an even more interesting conversation when he's out of office.

Right.

I think that would be riveting. So we're going to. We'll put Pence on the list. I get. We got some very strong connections to Pence. We might be able to make that happen. All right, Dan, you've given a ton of great advice already, but leave us with one more piece of advice. This audience of people who, like you, is just trying to do their best work, leaning into the call that God has placed on their lives. Do exceptional work for his glory and the good of others. What advice do you want to leave them with?

So I want to take you back to what I said just a few minutes ago. This idea of sometimes we have to do the work God gave us to do before, that we can do the work he made us to do. And there are seasons that I think God opens that path to do exactly what he's calling us to do do. And sometimes I think he says, here I have this greater plan that you can't see, but I need you to go over and do this right now. I know it's not the number one thing on your heart, but I am preparing something else for you, and this is part of the preparation. And so for me, that opportunity I had to go and lead that other function I called the greatest leadership development opportunity of my entire career. And it was 30 years into my career, and this is why it was so great. I had to go and lead a team of people that did not choose me, and I did not choose them. And I had very little competency in the subject matter when I was leading talent. I had done almost every single job over the course of my career that anybody on my team did. And I had selected dozens upon dozens of people who were. Worked for me. I can't remember the size of the staff, but it was nearly a. I think it was nearly. It was around 75 or 80 when.

I left, just in the talent.

In the talent area. So. And I had chosen every one of those people, and they had chosen to work for me. And I went to sustainability, and I was given a team, and they were given a boss. I had to use totally different leadership skills on the relational side, number one, to grow those relationships so I could lead that team. And then I had to. The only thing I could do on the competency side, because, as I like to say, I was not even a great recycler when I went to sustainability. And so. But I had expertise on my team. I had to trust them. I had to trust them, that they would do the right thing. And they did. And that's why God gave me that work. He knew what I would be doing in the future and that I needed to have that experience to complement everything else I had done and learned. So that now that my greatest passion is helping other organizations strengthen and build their culture and select extraordinary talent, win the hearts of their customers. He knew I needed to have that experience to do that well. And so sometimes we have to do the work God gave us to do before we can do the work God made us to do.

It's a really, really good perspective. And I tell a lot of young people, hey, if you're in a job you don't love right now, just do it with excellence. You're still commanded to do it with excellence. Work heartily, as under the Lord and I, one or two things is going to happen. Either I wrote about this in my latest book, Master of One. Passion will grow with mastery, right? So passion and competency tend to go hand in hand or you're going to open up other, other opportunities to pivot to something closer to what God made you to do. Right? Either way, it's a win for those you're serving and a win for yourself when you serve them well. Hey Dan, I just want to commend you for the exceptional, eternally significant work you've done for Your career for 33 years of chick fil a the work you're doing today. Thank you for loving customers and team members well by setting the bar really high and prioritizing the ministry of excellence. And thank you for leaning into your calling to help others lean into their God given callings. Hey guys, if you want to learn more from deanne, I would strongly recommend picking up her books. Bet on talent and it's my pleasure. I've read both of them. You can find them wherever books are sold. And you can find all of her other consulting services, services and everything else@danturner.com which obviously we'll put a link right here in the show notes. Deanne, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jordan, it's been completely my pleasure. I enjoyed our conversation and thank you for the work you're doing to influence so many people to live out their calling for Christ.

I know you guys make fun of me for saying every episode of the podcast is my favorite, but this goes on the list for sure. One of my favorite episodes of all time, the Call to Mastery. I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. Hey, if you're loving the podcast, make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss an episode in the future. And if you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor. Take 30 seconds and go. Leave a review of the show. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'll see you next week.

Sam.