Devon Havenaar (Carpenter)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as pharmacists roofers and paralegals. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Devin Havanar, a leader in the construction industry, where he has worked as a carpenter since he was 17 years old and led teams on some of the largest projects in Canada, where he's based on. Devin and I recently sat down to talk about how self care can be an on ramp to self forgetfulness and ultimately self sacrifice. We talked about how the speed of light in the stars can encourage you in your wordless evangelism, even when it appears to be bearing no fruit. And finally, we talked about the significance of Jesus spending years hammering the very thing he would ultimately be him or two. Please enjoy this episode with my new friend, Devin Havana. Hey, Dev. And welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Jordan, how are you? Thanks for having me.

I'm great, man. I mean, listen, anytime somebody shows up and asks before we start recording, can I fangirl now or later, I'm like, this is going to be a great day. You could fangirl all you want, but I'm fangirling, man, because I'm so pumped about the way that you are thinking about your craft as a carpenter. Now listen, that term means different things to different people. How would you describe what you do vocationally?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's kind of transitioned differently throughout my career, but in the start putting things together, my name is on the products that we're making, the trim I'm putting on the window. It's almost like my signature is on if that miter is perfect in the corner. You know, through this podcast and so many other resources I can find that there's so much intrinsic value. And yeah, my signature is on that, but God can work through me and we can build this house, we can frame this basement, we can do whatever and we've got our stamp on it, you know. But since my super, I've gotten into a supervisory position, it's almost like I've been transitioning out of building buildings into building, building people. And that's kind of where I find myself now. I'm not saying I'm wiser, smarter than anybody, but I mean, there's so much value in just these one on one conversations. Like, hey, man, I think you could have done better there. Or if they can approach me and say, hey, like, you didn't really handle that situation the best. So, I mean, from a carpenter to now building, helping build people.

Yeah, I love that contrast of building buildings and building people. And one thing that was Interesting to me about your story. You began your carpentry career when 17. You earned your journeyman carpenter certificate at the age of 22, making you one of the youngest people to do so in Canada. And this is a rare modern form of a true apprenticeship, which most careers don't have today. My friend John Mark Comer says that all Christ followers are called to be apprentices of Jesus Christ. So I'm curious for you, man. Speaking of building people, what did your time as an apprentice to a carpenter teach you about what it means to be an apprentice to the carpenter? Jesus Christ?

Wow. I would say it's almost like the main idea or word that comes to mind would be patience. Like, our apprenticeships are governed by, like, the amount of hours you need to put in and the test at the end. So if I need to put seven, 200 hours in, I can't shortcut that. I've got to do my time. I've got to stay disciplined. I've got to stay learning. Because if in those 7200 hours, you don't learn the fundamentals, you don't learn the basics of your apprenticeship, you won't be able to pass that test. You won't be able to keep going. And there's just. There's so many crossovers. Like, staying disciplined in our walk with Jesus is like staying disciplined in your apprenticeship. There's frustrations, having to. Sometimes you're dealing with older journey people in the trades that they don't have the best attitude, they're not the easiest to work with, but everybody can teach you something, and they might just be teaching you that day what not to do when you're. When you're done your apprenticeship, you know, not. Not to get mad or yell or that kind of stuff. And I learned also that when you get the journeyman ticket, we call it a certification or a ticket, it's almost like a secondary starting point, a secondary birth. Like, I quickly realized, like, yeah, I've got. I've got the papers, but I've only scratched the surface here. I found a similarity. Like, when we're saved by Jesus, we're kind of scratching the surface there. It's kind of a second. It's a new birth. We're starting again, but this time we've got Jesus, and we can rely on his steadfast hope and his love, and we're starting anew. I don't know if that parallel makes much sense, but.

Dude. Dude, no, it's really good. But unlike. Unlike an apprenticeship in the world of carpentry, We've already passed, quote, unquote, the test because Jesus pass the test for us, right? And so there is that new birth from day one. We're not working towards, quote, unquote, graduation. We start from a position of graduation. But even then, I think the takeaway for me listen to you tell the story is, man, it just takes a long time to become like the master that you're apprenticing under. Right? And it takes a long time to become more and more like Jesus. I've heard people preach this with the fruit of the spirit. Fruit takes a long time to grow. Pineapple takes like two years, right?

To grow.

It takes a long, long time. But no, man, I love that. Hey, you mentioned to me before there's often this unspoken stigma that comes with working in the trades. I'm curious if you ever heard that stigma explicitly. Right. Spoken by family, friends, people at church, whatever. And if you did, what in the world did that sound like?

Yeah, I mean, I was reflecting a little bit on that. And sometimes it was almost rather than spoken, it was. It was felt. I had the opportunity to go to a great Christian high school. I was one of the few. I think I was the only person that went directly in the trades. You know, a couple of people took a gap year, but there was when they were kind of announcing that, and you go up and you shake their hands, maybe I'm reading into it too much. But there just was, you know, a sense like, oh, we paid this pretty penny for this Christian education. This guy wants to be a carpenter. So, I mean, I can laugh about it now, but that's kind of what was felt in that moment. And, you know, just people that I trust and love maybe were like, well, you don't, you know, you haven't really expressed an interest in that before. And they were right. I mean, I'm like a couple of months from graduation, like, I'm going to be a carpenter. And people are like, what? Like, so praise God, it all worked out. And it's all making more and more sense. As I've been in this industry, I'm like, okay, this is why I'm supposed to be here building buildings. Building people. Yeah. I just feel the divine calling. I can't say it any other way than that.

I do think it's interesting. Like, I have. I have a buddy named Dave Haytag, who you should know, by the way, who's a huge proponent of the trades and Christians working in the trades. And he. He's a big believer that. That Jesus was not a carpenter. The way we typically think about it, but he probably worked with stone. He was probably a stonemason. But here's the deal. We don't know, right? He could have worked with stone, he could have worked with wood. But if it was wood. I was thinking about this the other day. I think it's fascinating that Jesus would have spent most of his life hammering the very thing he knew he would eventually be hammered to. Have you ever thought about that, Devin? What do you make of that?

I haven't thought about it like that before, but it's almost poetic, ironic. And sometimes as a construction worker, we can get frustrated with what's going on and the, the adverse, you know, weather we might have to work in or the frustrating people we might have to encounter. And I mean, sometimes we don't understand why we're doing something until years down the line. And I wonder, I wonder if Jesus was ever building something and he thought, wow, like this piece of wood could be made. I've never thought about that. It's almost profound to think about if he was thinking about that while he was pounding timbers together, building. Building a house or a hut.

But yeah, it's probably a pretty good daily reminder to die to self, right? He knew he would do that, literally. But it's probably a daily reminder of, oh, I'm dying to self as I am serving this customer. I'm curious for you, and this will transition us a little bit into how the gospel shaping how you do what you do. What is that for you, man? Do you have ways of reminding yourself of what it looks like to die to self as you serve this team that you lead on these construction sites?

I think one of the most powerful things that I try to do for myself is just remind myself every single day through my. My daily prayer. I have a regimented thing that I talk to myself, and I'm just reminding myself that I'm a carpenter first. I'm not a. Just because I have a supervisory position doesn't mean that I hold any more value or worth than anybody I might encounter or instruct, and that I'm not accountable to anybody else that I might encounter that day, but I'm accountable to Jesus at the end of that day. So how can I live this single. Every single day, every interaction is a chance to add value. And those living with. I find trying to live with humility, I mean, it's extremely challenging. But sometimes you might get questioned like, well, why are you talking that way? Or. And those are just on ramps for deeper and more intellectual and Relational conversations that people, it's almost like they're hungry for it.

Hungry for what? For to talk about spiritual things.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, a hunger to talk about something a little more deeper than a sports game on the weekend or drinking with buddies while they were golfing. There's almost like a facade that gets let down. And you can kind of explore with people on a personal one to one level what they might actually be going through. And the trades right now, this time of year, we're in winter up here in Canada and it's long, long dark days, bad weather, seasonal depression is high. So people, they seem to be going through some things, including myself, you know, so it's great to have that human one to one connection, being able to share what's keeping me going, what's keeping me grounded, what my identity is in, rather than putting this hoarding wall up or insulating this basement or whatever it could be.

Yeah. So you're telling us that these, these guys and girls on this construction crew are eager to talk about deeper things. Right. Eager to talk even about spiritual things. So think back to the last clearly spiritual conversation you had with a member of your crew. How did it come about?

Okay, yeah, there's. There's a young man that I'm working with. His mom is going through a cancer diagnosis right now, and he's taking it really, really hard. And I know that he's had his challenges, his family is going through challenges. And I just asked, I just felt the spirit come over me and say, like, ask him if he wants you to pray for him. So I was like, okay. I asked, hey, is it okay if that we pray for you and not together, but I'll pray for you on my own time. He almost was taken aback. Like he maybe will not recognize the power in prayer, but to know that somebody's praying for him and his mom. And a few days later I said, hey, I just want you to know, my daughter and I, we lifted up your mother in prayer before we ate supper last night. And just seeing the way people react to something like that. There's no better way to show the love of Christ than one on one. And there's no better feeling you get when you're able to give to somebody something they don't even might. Might not know that they even need or want or have a desire for. Yeah, it's profound.

It's really good. Yeah. People, nonbelievers might not understand the power of prayer, but everybody understands the power of care. Right? And just feeling seen, feeling loved, feeling Cared for. And that's what it sounds like this guy was bowled over at. It wasn't necessarily that it was prayer, but that you took the time to care about him as a human being.

Right? Yeah. And I think you should just put your name behind that quote there. Not everybody understands the power of prayer.

It's my AI bot suggesting lines.

Just kidding.

Just kidding.

Just kidding.

Yeah, but, like, that's a really good example. I talk about this in the sacredness of secular work. You know, we can be proactive in looking for opportunities to steer conversations from the surface to the serious to the spiritual. Right. And one really easy way to do it is once you know what's going on in somebody's life, just offering to pray for them. Nobody, nobody gets upset when you ask if you can pray for them, if you have a genuine relationship with them. But, Devin, man, like, I gotta imagine a lot of crew managers like yourself see talking about their employees, families, health issues as a waste of time. When do you make the time? What does that look like? When are you learning these details about people's lives so that you can love your neighbors as. As yourself?

Well, we talk a lot about safety on construction sites. And if you take safety a step further, people also need to be psychologically safe, mentally safe on the job site. And sometimes we overemphasize on physical safety, and psychological or mental safety might take a backseat. So when we have safety talks, they always end with an invitation. What do you guys want to talk about? What's something that we need to know that's going on on the job site? What's something that's going on in your life that we might need to know about? I'm trying to promote that we're all on a journey and we're all kind of got our arms together and we're walking, we're walking together forward.

It's really good. I like that idea of attaching. You've got common language within the construction industry. You're talking about safety, right. And you're looking at that and say, okay, great. I 100% agree with all this, but how can I take it somewhere deeper and somewhere more spiritual in talking about not just physical safety, not even just mental safety, but spiritual safety? I really like that a lot, man.

Yeah. That hunger that I was talking about earlier, it's there. I'm so excited and curious to see where the next five or 10 years can go, especially as our workforce transitions from Gen X boomers down to millennials and Gen Z and how safety will change on the Job site to more mental health and more psychological and spiritual safety for people. It's exciting.

It's really good. All right, so we've been talking about how we can be proactive in talking about spiritual things with your co workers. But you mentioned something in our pre interview about being reacted that I thought was really interesting. You mentioned that some of your very small, seemingly small personal decisions, quitting drinking, stopping smoking, stopping swearing, et cetera, have been used by God to naturally share your faith. Tell us more about that. Do people actually ask the question, quote unquote, when they notice these things in you?

Yeah, I got to preface that question as I am still working on the swearing one.

We had to. We had to cut out Devin swearing three minutes ago. Just kidding. Just kidding. We did not.

Yeah, the drinking one. We had some golf tournaments at work and I did some questionable things that I woke up the next morning and I was like, oh, that was probably not good. But my wife put it best. I mean, you can't have one of the people that works for you every day driving you home because you're unable to drive. And I'm like, I gotta agree with you on that one, honey. But the drinking one has been great because if I'll go out for drinks with the guys, they all get their beers and I'm like, hey, can I have an iced tea? It'll just get some laughs and jeers and that's fine. That's just our working personalities. I like to invite fun criticism and we call it chirping in the industry. So, like, sometimes you might get pulled aside, you know, after you've been sitting a while together, like, what's. Why. Why iced tea, man? And aside from being, you know, a sugar addict, it's. I like iced tea. And it's just another on ramp to like. Yeah, I mean, the feeling I have from not drinking the past few years and the experiences psychologically and safe and spiritually, it far outweighs the any high or drunken adventure I've been on in the past. It just. Yeah, it's one small thing that I can do to. To live a little bit differently, but not crazily. I mean, there's a lot of non Christians that I know that are giving up alcohol and those types of things. So it's, it's reassuring.

But people do eventually notice the small things, whether it's drinking or not, grumbling and complaining on the job site or not, swearing in your experience. Eventually people do notice. And people do ask the question to which Jesus is the ultimate answer, right? Devin.

100%. Yeah. It's far easier to. To invite a conversation like that than to try and get my construction worker buddy to come to church with me on Sunday.

That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. You know, I think this is interesting. I was just a couple weeks ago, I was with my daughters and my best friend and we were in the middle of nowhere looking out at the stars. And I was reading Philippians 2:14 through 15, which actually just published a devotional on a couple weeks ago where Paul says, do everything without grumbling or arguing so that you may become blameless and pure children of God, without fault and a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky. As I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking, you know what though? The light from the stars takes years to reach our eyes. Right? And so too can our light. Right? Like your simple everyday acts of faithfulness, man, you're not swearing your decision out of conviction not to draw, drink, to not grumble, to not argue. It might take a really long time for the light of those decisions to reach the eyes of your lost co workers. But that's okay. That's the timing of that is in God's hands. You're just called to be faithful. Amen.

Amen. Thank you for saying that to me. That spoke right to, right to the heart.

Hey man, as I was reading up on your stuff before we talked today, it was clear to me that one of the ways your faith is shaping how you work is this RISE framework of leadership that you've been teaching within the construction industry. Can you give us that framework at a high level?

Yeah, for sure. So RISE was kind of developed for the TEDx talk that I had the opportunity to do a few months ago. Still hasn't been released, but it's kind of the struggle that I'm finding in construction and talking to hundreds of different people. RISE stands for respect, invest, support, and educate. And a lot of the people's frustrations can fall under that umbrella of they're either not respected enough, they're either not invested enough, they're either not supported enough, or they're not educated enough to do the best that they can possibly do. So that was kind of an umbrella term to encompass some of the frustrations and hopefully give language to some people that might not know where they need to go next in their career or what pain point they have. Hopefully that could kind of, kind of help them.

It's good, man. I like it. I can't wait to watch that TEDx talk. I'll listen to it on one of my drives. How did your faith influence the formation of that framework? Where do you most clearly see the gospel in this rise framework?

For me personally, the S was a big one. Support.

Support. Tell us why.

So if you can support somebody and you can get support from other people, it's almost like a superpower into the other parts of the framework. Respect, investing and educate. But if you can get the basics of supporting your workforce, getting yourself supported through spiritual guidance or therapy, it's almost a superpower to the rest of themselves. The rest of the framework taking care of itself almost.

How are you supporting your workforce in a way that a non Christian might not?

Yeah, it's taken me, you know, thousands of dollars worth of therapy. No, I'm just joking. But literally, I gotta, as a. I take my leadership seriously and I don't want to take my role for granted. So I need to be. Try to, try to operate from a place of like, emotional stability so I can carry what I can to help my workforce do the things that they need to do. And what I found is everybody loves to talk about themselves. I guess that's kind of what I'm doing on this podcast.

So forgive me, I'm asking you to, in fairness.

Yeah, but other people, they, they don't want to hear about the accomplishments that I've had in my life. And I'm okay not to share that because I know that my accomplishments and the things that I've done in my life, they should point back to Jesus. They're kind of separated from me so people can talk to me about what their problems are without me trying to spin it in a direction that might glorify myself for being, you know, quote unquote wise or smart, but rather, you know, operating from the shared human, almost a brokenness that we're all sharing. Especially in a construction industry, there's almost like a shared brokenness that we're. We're kind of trudging along together. So I guess, yeah, that would be some of the most.

Dude. Okay. What you just said was the most profound thing you've said of this entire episode. I don't want our listeners to. To miss it. So I wasn't planning on going here, but let's go a couple levels deeper here. Did you read the Freedom of Self Forgetfulness by Tim Keller?

I have not.

Oh my gosh. I'm sending you a copy. I'm writing this down in my commitment tracking system right now. I'm going to send you, this book, it's phenomenal, but you just described it. Let me reflect back to you what I hear and you tell me if I've got this right. What I hear you saying is, Jordan, I have been able to depersonalize my accomplishments, depersonalize my professional success, knowing that it's all from Christ and that it's his glory. That's the point, not my own. And so that frees me up from the energy expenditure that I used to have of having to walk into a room and prove that I belong there and prove that I was the smartest and prove that I was the most successful. And now I am free to be there to serve and support my team and love them rather than have to love myself by trying to get the adoration from others that I already have, secure from Christ. Is that what you're saying?

Amen. Amen. Yes. And it took me many years to get there. And people can almost feel if you're trying to take something from them or if you're trying to give them something, it's almost like an unspoken spirit, soul to soul thing. And if you can operate from just loving or trying to give, people can almost feel that energy.

You mentioned something about your own emotional stability that I think is connected to this idea of self forgetfulness. Right. And this is, this is where I think we can critique and push back on secular self care thinking a little bit.

Right.

Because what you're saying is, yes, self care. Yes, I need to spend time to focus on my emotional stability. Yes. I need to spend time preaching the gospel to myself and at the wants to call that self care. Go ahead. But it's self care as a means to self forgetfulness. Right. Of losing myself in Christ as a means to self sacrifice and being able to focus on and love my neighbor as myself. Right.

Amen. 100%. 100%. Yep.

Hey, I want to touch on something else from this rise framework, the R of respect. You said something about this in our pre interview and it was little and it was in passing, but I thought it was so brilliant and I loved it. You pointed it to the super practical way that you show your crew that they are not just a number, they are not just quote unquote, human resources to you, but they are people and it had to do with their lunch orders. Do you remember the story? And if so, can you briefly share it with our listeners?

Yeah, I guess it was simple, but we often will have, you know, we'll have pizza day at work and everybody gets pizza. And if you don't like mushrooms. Well, too bad. Here's your pizza. If there's too many olives, well, we're not sending it back. You better open up. I was like, this is almost a little impersonal. If I can dedicate, you know, 45 minutes to getting everybody's lunch order a special sub from a local sub place with exactly what they want on it. They got their drink, and they got the chips that they want. Extremely personalized. I mean, I think that'll mean a lot more to people because I know it would mean a lot to me. So, yeah, I did that. The crew was extremely appreciative, and, I mean, it only took me, you know, an extra 20, 25 minutes. A little bit of coordination and. Yeah, just a little story, but I love this.

Some listeners are, like, rolling their eyes back. This is so small. But that's. That's the point I'm trying to make, because that seemingly tiny action of you spending 45 minutes of taking care in a lunch order did win the respect of outsiders. Right? It did mean something to that crew. How big? I don't know. But they noticed your career. Just like the guy who noticed your care and praying for his mom, right? They noticed the care of you giving them a sub instead of pizza with mushrooms. Amen.

Amen. Amen.

I love it, dude. I love it. Hey, man, this has been super fun. As you know, we wrap up every episode the same way by asking our guests the same four questions. Number one, dude, what job would you love for God to give you on the new Earth? You still want to be building buildings?

I honestly think I do. Yeah.

I think I'd be amazing.

My Zen place is listening to music, pounding out some. Some decks in the summer. I mean, there's nothing more enjoyable than just having some hardcore music in my ears, a circular saw in my hands. And I mean, if I could do that in heaven while worshiping, I mean, that's it. That's cool.

I think you're gonna love the new Earth. Go read Isaiah 65. I think it's going to make you very excited. We will build houses and dwell in them with Christ. Right? Free from the curse of sin. Hey, dude, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which books would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends?

Well, obviously redeeming your time.

Come on.

Yeah, I know. Okay, we'll just skip that one. But seriously, it's. I never thought about time management from Jesus's standpoint. I was like, Jesus didn't have time management but holy cow. From your book 100 he did. But aside from your book, Jordan, I'd have to say the psychology of money by Morgan Houselike. I mean, as a young person, if you can read that and understand it, there's so much more wisdom outside of just finances in that book. One of my favorite practical books was Atomic Habits.

Yeah.

Great book by James Clear, everybody, always by Bob Gough. It almost restored my sense of hope back in humanity. The things that his organization and the people that are working for love does as a ministry. I mean, exceptional work, exceptional stories. So much power in the story of what's going on in different places of the world. Yeah. How to lead when you're not in charge by Clay Stork Goggins was a. Was a big one for me. If you really want to challenge your theology, Irresistible by Andy Stanley wasn't. Yeah, it was. Wow, Ray. Me rethink my theology on a very, very deep level.

It's good, man. It's really good. By the way, we were talking before we started recording that I sold you on Read Wise and Reading on Kindle. My listeners, although I don't really talk about Readwise that much on this podcast, sell our listeners on it, because I swear this is my secret weapon in writing, in podcast production. Tell everyone about this app.

Yeah, so you convinced me through your podcast to get rid of all my books and buy a Kindle. So I did that. And you can highlight in Kindle, and then those highlights get put into this app called Readwise, and it sends you however many highlights you want. So I have thousands and thousands of highlights now, and it sends you like a refresh every day. So it's keeping those highlights from these books fresh in your memory. And you can, like chat with your highlights on this app now. And I mean, that's revolutionary. So if you want to write or you're brainstorming on a topic you want to speak about, you can chat with every highlight you've ever made on a certain word, maybe reputation, or a certain idea, and then the Reader app comes with it.

Oh, dude, the Reader app's unbelievable.

It's the only paid app that I pay for because I'm extremely cheap. But you can put your articles, you can put YouTube videos of sermons, you can put YouTube videos of whatever, and you can highlight mid video, and it stores that piece of information for you for as long as you're paying for the app. And I mean, best I know, I think it's 7.99 in the States, a little higher here because of. Because of our dollar, but it's worth it.

Oh, my gosh, I am obsessed. Don't tell my friends at Rootwise. I would pay a lot more than $8 a month.

Yeah, we. We got to keep it hush, hush. We got to keep it on the underground.

Keep it hush, hush Keep it hush, hush. It is an absolute game changer. All right, Devin, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?

So, one of my best friend's dads, his name's Randy, and he's had a crazy career journey that I think would be of value to your listeners. He owned an ice cream shop. He owns a auto shop. He used to be the harbor master in our local town. He also used to be a pastor of the local church, and now he serves alongside of one of our elected politicians right on Parliament Hill. So, I mean, what a story there of how God has used a normal dude to do weird and extraordinary things. He's also got. He's collected Zambonis from every NHL team.

That's the most on brand Canadian thing I've ever heard.

Gosh, he meets all the Zamboni guys. Yeah.

By the way, we do not have enough Canadians on this show. Man. You're. You're one of. One of the few. I love this man. Yeah. All right. Hey, Devin, we've talked about a bunch of different things in the last 40 minutes or so. What's one thing you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

So, as probably a lot of people listening like me are high production, high contribution, high legacy, whatever you want to call. It took me a long time to understand this, but God's grace is enough. I used to operate so hard and so fast from a place of insecurity, but when God arrested me and when I was living at an unsustainable pace, he arrested me there, and he said, you can do as much as you want, but none of it will be blessed without me. So I've just been really basking and soaking myself in the knowledge that when I'm sitting playing cars on the floor with my kids, it's just as much value as when I'm praying or trying to help a co worker and. Or doing a cool real estate move or doing a house build, all the same value. God's grace is enough for each and every one of us. If you're operating from a place of insecurity, give it to God, and he will give you that security that you're chasing.

Oh, Man, I love that so much, dude. Devin, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you are doing for the glory of God and the good of others, for the reminder of the God given dignity of all good and honest work and for the reminder that self care can be an on ramp to self forgetfulness and ultimately self sacrifice. Hey dude, where can people follow along with what you're doing? You just launched a podcast, right?

I did. It's extremely low quality because I recorded on my iPhone.

That's amazing. I love it. I love it. What's the show?

It's called the Bad Leader Podcast. It's called that because I'm afraid of being a bad leader and I don't want to be a bad leader in construction and it's just, it's specifically tailored to construction workers and how we can live our best life on and off the job site. So if you ever want to check that out, I would invite your listeners to check that out and we can do one on one coaching. I don't charge because we don't make any money. This is just like you talked about, a way that I can try and give back some of the knowledge I've gained through the industry and some of the grace that God's given me.

It's good man. Devin, thanks for hanging with us today.

Thanks so much.

Hey, I want to know who you want to hear on the Mere Christians podcast. Maybe there's somebody like Randy in your life that you would love to hear tell their story. Let me know@jordanrayner.com contact. Hey, thank you guys so much for listening. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form at 5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Ole Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.