DJ Snell (Jordan's Literary Agent)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. Happy New Year. I'm praying that this is the year, that this is the decade that we will all answer the Call to Mastery by focusing more intensely on the work.

That God created each and every one.

Of us to do, not for our own fame and fortune, but for his glory, for his fame and and for the good of others. That's what this show is all about.

Hey, as you guys know, that's what.

My next book is all about as well. Master of One releases on January 21st, so less than three weeks out, but we have an amazing incentive for you to pre order your copy. By the way, I don't preorder books. Typically you probably don't either. But I'm going to give you a really good incentive to pre order Master of One because by the way, this is really important for all the bestseller lists, for all the calculations, pre orders matter. So to encourage you to pre order your copy, we're giving away a trip for two people for you and a friend, a friend of your choice to go to Europe. You're going to tour La Sagrada Familia, the world's largest church that I write about extensively in Master of One. You're going to meet me there in Barcelona for dinner. We'll find an amazing place in Barcelona for us to bread together.

And then you and your friend are.

Going to go by yourselves. I'm not joining you on a seven night European cruise on Royal Caribbean. You're going to go to Italy, France, Spain. It's going to be an incredible trip, all on my dime. So go ahead, pre order the book and enter the sweepstakes right now@jordanraynor.com Hey.

I got a special New Year's Day.

Episode of the Call to Mastery for you guys. We did a recent survey of my audience and found that more than 50% of you want to write a book at some point in your lives. And the vast majority of you who want to write a book don't want to self publish. Interestingly enough, you want to get a deal, a book deal with a major publisher, which I obviously endorse. I'm a big fan of Traditional publishing. So today I'm going to introduce you to my literary agent, D.J. snell, who helped me secure my book deals for Call to Great for Master of One. And we may or may not have some big news coming very soon about another deal we recently secured. I think I can allude to that. So if you've ever dreamed of landing a publishing deal, this is going to be a fantastic episode for you. DJ is one of the most impressive people I know. He's a Harvard Law grad, a seminary grad, an agent to authors who are way more impressive than me, including NFL hall of Fame coach Tony Dungy, who you'll hear us talk about in this conversation. So DJ and I recently sat down to talk about how to get a book deal, even if you have no platform.

Right.

We talked about the impact of Payne Stewart's death. Payne Stewart, the famous golfer, the impact that his death had on DJs career. Kind of a fascinating, tragic and redemptive story there. And we talked about the church's overemphasis on the depravity of man. So this is a wide ranging conversation that you're not going to want to miss. Without further ado, here's my conversation with my good friend, my partner, my literary agent, D.J. snell.

All right, DJ Snell, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

I'm well, thank you. My pleasure to be with you.

So saying in the introduction to this episode, you are, obviously, you're. You're a good friend, but you are also really my closest partner. Right. In my career as a writer. You're the guy that I go to with everything. I mean, just before we started recording, we talked about a new deal that we're in the process of executing. So you're my agent, but you're much more than that. You're really strategist for Jordan Rayner Co. And this whole brand. By the way, aren't you relieved that we finally decided to do a podcast? You've been pushing me to do this.

For, like, four years, so.

Well, good. So let's start here. I think a lot of people listening to this episode are curious what a literary agent does and why they're such critical partners to authors. So let's start there. What do you do as a literary agent?

Well, the role of a literary agent is to really, it's like you said, to be a partner in the writing process. And the whole structure is very much alignment with. With the author and helping them achieve their goals of having a successful book. So it really Starts with a literary agent reviewing proposals, helping refine for publishers. They really look to agents to help kind of sort through what's, what's a viable product and what is not, and to be able to help the author figure out their message, develop that and get into a place where a publisher can, it'll resonate with a publishing company and where an editor would want to take that on for the company. And then it's a matter of negotiating the business of that. So negotiating the. Well, presenting to the publishers, finding the publishers that are interested in that, then negotiating the deal terms, facilitating the dialogue between the author and, and the publishers that are interested, narrowing that down to the, to the target publisher and then negotiating the final publishing agreement.

Yeah, so we'll get into the nitty gritty details on the process. I want to dive deeper there in a minute. But I mean, essentially at the end of the day, right, an agent's job is to help an author develop a proposal for a book and they go sell that book to the publishing world and you kind of have to have an agent. Right. I mean, publishers are not taking unsolicited manuscripts. So your job security is like pretty set. And for our listeners who don't understand, talk to the economics because I think a lot of people don't understand how the economic relationship between author and agent works. How's that structured?

Well, it's a commission structure typically where it's basically the industry Standard is a 15% commission. So the agent typically isn't making any money if the author, Author isn't making money. And so that's the manner in which we're very connected and very much partners. And a successful project is key for the agent success as much as for the author's success in that.

Yeah. So you don't get paid unless the author gets paid. It's a really beautiful, beautiful, beautiful relationship. Which means you've got to be, I mean, you got to be pretty confident if you're taking on a client, if you're taking an author, you got to be pretty confident that you're going to be able to get a deal. Right. So which, which is great. Sorry, let's back up because I think your story is really fascinating in how you kind of came into this whole literary agenting world. Can you tell us kind of the five minute version of your story and kind of the path to mastering this work that you're doing now?

Sure, yes. So I came into the literary representation business in a very unique way, probably from most people. Most people come at it from an English major, literary background. I came at it through the sports agent track. And even that was not something I had Lander intended. I. I had come, moved to Orlando, Florida to go to seminary for a year and needed a job and ended up landing along with a poor college student. That's right. That's right. Trying not to go in debt. And landed a job with a company. I didn't really know what they did. It was a law. I thought it was a law firm, and it turned out to be a sports agency. But they were hiring me, and I was thrilled, so I took the job.

Figure out what they did later.

Right. That's less important. Yeah, I think they were true. You know, it was interesting because that was back in 1990, and the sports industry was relatively new at that time in terms of a sports management business. And so most people didn't. This was pre Jerry Maguire, the movie that kind of helped define the industry or at least give people a frame of reference for what it. What it's about. But the company that I was hired with was one of the first, and they represented a lot of coaches and some golfers and baseball players and football players, NFL coaches, predominantly in terms of the coach category. So my first project when I was an intern with the company was working on a Joe Gibbs book project. They were getting permissions and photographs and permissions for photographs. And so that was my task was to facilitate getting all those documents signed and getting them in order. And so that was my. It was interesting, my first project. So it was a book project where the sports agency, obviously that was a small percentage of what we did. So we did endorsements, licensing, appearance agreements, speaking engagements, and then, of course, their contracts with teams.

So time out for a second. So if sports agenting was like a relatively new thing in 1990, what happened in the 70s and 80s? Like. Like, would coaches negotiate contracts directly with GMs? Like, how did this work?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I don't. I don't know the history of that. The kind of. Mark McCormick of IMG was the first to really kind of pioneer that industry, and he did that with Arnold Palmer in the golf. Yeah, that's where it got really kind of started. And. And so then I think it was probably lawyers that were maybe helping with team contracts and things of that nature. But lots of times I think it was people negotiating their own.

That's fascinating. It sounds like the Wild West. All right, so you're an intern in the sports agent in business. Pick the story back up from there.

Okay. So, so, so I was there for a year. I did kind of all manner of thing that went to law school, which I had deferred to go to seminary for the year, graduated from law, and when I came back, my primary areas of emphasis were on the endorsement kind of non team contract side of things. So endorsements, licensing appearances, speaking engagements and literary projects. So for our clients that eventually get to the place, wherever there was a book interest, they would have me kind of follow up on that. And I, I really enjoyed that aspect of it. What's interesting about it for me at that time, when we're, when you're looking for endorsement opportunities, the pool of opportunity is infinite and a bit overwhelming because you can never be done with that process, you know. So if you're looking for an endorsement for a client, you know, almost anything could be, almost any company could endorse them. But for a book project, it's finite. There's a, there's a limited number of publishers and you go and you present that and if nobody's interested, you have no deal or you have a deal if you do have interest. So it was, it was a task you could actually complete. And that was really nice. I like that part of it compared to a lot of the other things I did. But I also just loved the idea of helping shape and impact kind of a thought, whether it's a memoir or if it's a principle driven book, to be able to take that and you're impacting in a different way, in a more long standing way than if you just do a speaking engagement or endorsement or something of that nature. You're really helping communicate a message. Right? Take a story. And so then, so I worked for that company. I was on point for book projects. We had a very tragic story. We represented Payne Stewart, professional golfer who was killed in a plane crash in 99. We just had the 20th anniversary of that October 25th. And so on the plane with Payne, the owner of our company, Robert Fraley, and the president of our company, Van Arden, were both traveling with him. And so we lost them both at that moment. So that created a dramatic shift in our company which, fast forwarding several years, I ended up in my own company. So my company now is called Legacy and it's not hard to figure out the name based on those, those men. I still represent the Payne Stewart family and trying to carry on their legacy, his legacy and the legacy of Robert and Van. So I kind of carried forth that business in some respects and focused as a result of that. I got to Shape more of the focus and I shift more to literary. So I do more literary representation than I do, quote, unquote, sports representation now.

But the, I mean, the transition was pretty seamless, right, because a lot of your biggest, earliest projects also came from the world of sports. Right? So you, you represented Tony Dungy and the book Quiet Strength, his, his memoir, which is that. That's the biggest book you've ever done, right?

Yes. Yeah. I represented Tracy Stewart in her book about pain, which was also a New York Times bestseller. I did that as part of the Other company. And we did that, you know, after the events of the plane crash.

So a Quiet, Quiet Strength is just a mammoth.

Yes, right.

I mean, you told me it was the best selling sports memoir of all time, right?

Yeah, that's what Tyndale told me is the best selling sports memoir of all time. At least in recorded, recorded time. Recorded since I've been tracking it.

That blow that blows my mind. I mean, listen, you and I love Tony, but there are certainly bigger stars, right? Like bigger athletes, bigger names that have published books that haven't done well. I think that's a testament to Tony. So we're releasing this episode on New Year's Day, so we're three weeks out for when people are listening. This three weeks out from the launch of Master of One. And Tony just was one of my absolute favorite interviews to do. Just sitting down with him and talking about why excellence matters to him, I think it's just like very compelling. I think he has a really, really good theology of excellence, if you will, and why excellence should be important for Christians and kind of makes up first part, the first chapter of Master of One. What most impresses you about Tony? I mean, you know, Tony probably better than almost anybody outside of his family. Like, what really stands out to you about Tony Dungy?

I would use the word congruence. He is the same. Consistency may be a better word. He's the same in every context. In fact, I, I joke with him. After we did a book tour, the first for. For Quiet Strength. And it was very rigorous book tour where we were in Atlanta for the cb, the CBA Christian Booksellers Convention. And we flew to la, where we had to get up at really very early to do a satellite tour, where normally you do the satellite tour from the east coast so that you kind of catch people as they're waking up. We had to get wake up, you know, on the west coast in order to be able to broadcast to the east coast, which was backwards. And we had just A full day of stuff that culminated with going on the Jay Leno show and then going to the ESPY Awards. And so we didn't get back to the hotel almost 24 hours after we left. Wow, what a day. Oh, yeah. And the whole tour was just crazy like that. And Tony was the same. Like, he never was cranky, he never got short. So I told him at the end of that, I said, you know, Tony, I know that you're a sinner, but because the Bible tells me you are not, because I've actually seen it, I love it.

I love it. I'm sure there's some amazing road stories with Tony. Anyways, I bring Tony up because of our shared love for him. But also, I know my audience just loves Tony.

Well, what you see is what you get with him. I love it.

All right, let's talk more about the publishing process. So I recently sent out a survey to my audience to figure out how many of them are interested in writing a book. And not surprisingly, more than 50% of my audience says that they want to write a book at some point.

Point.

And the majority of those people, when I asked the follow up question, do you want to self publish or do you want to traditionally publish? The vast majority of them said, I want to get a traditional publishing deal.

Right.

I think it's something that a lot of people want to do. So we're releasing this episode on New Year's Day where I'm sure some people are dreaming about maybe writing a book in 2020, maybe getting a book deal in 2020. So I want to break it down for them. I mean, you are a masterful agent. You understand this industry inside out. So let's map out the whole process for them step by step. So let's say you're talking to somebody in our audience who all they've gotten is an idea for a book, right? That's it. That's their starting point. Walk through the step by step process to go from idea to signed contract with the publisher, right?

The great thing about at least non fiction publishing, which is the world in which I operate more than fiction, is that you do not have to have your finished book before you begin this process. A lot of people think, well, I've got to write the book and then I can go. And that's just not true. You don't have to do that. The first thing that I recommend is that you, before you even start writing your book, is to think about how you can promote your book. The publishing world has changed dramatically and even just the last five years where it really, there's so much in the marketplace because there's so many different ways you can publish with the self publishing, there's just a glut. And so how does a book rise above to be found? Like, think about it, how we used to go. Used to, had. Used to have to go to Barnes and Noble or Borders when that existed, lifeway and browse the aisles to find your book. And now so much of the purchasing is happening online and you're kind of looking by author or by title. And so you don't browse the way that you used to as a result of that. And so it's really critical that you be able to, to draw attention to your book, to be able to communicate with an audience that you have access to that you've got a book, encourage them to go look for it. And lots of times authors don't understand that. They think, okay, well, I've got a great idea, it'll sell. In fact, we had an author that came to us and she's like, I've got this great idea. And it was a very solid idea and I think it could work in the marketplace. But we talked about the need to have the following to be able to drive traffic to that book. And she's like, well, I just want to write it and they will come. And that's just rare. Yeah, it's just like it's the needle in the haystack kind of deal. So. But as far as the actual writing process, the first thing you need to do is make sure the keys to a great book are that platform. A really solid idea, an innovative, fresh approach doesn't have to be necessarily something new. You know, there's nothing new under the sun, so to speak, but a fresh way to approach it at least, and something innovative along those lines. So really. So a good platform, a good idea, well executed in terms of writing. So as you begin the writing process, the first thing to do is develop a proposal. And the proposal, what you need to have are just two sample chapters. You need to have your whole concept outlined. You know, you need to know what the whole concept is. And we have a structure for what we, what we look for. But you need a synopsis, you need a chapter outline, and you need your two sample chapters, but you also need to have an elevator pitch for it. Right? What's the quick, quick statement that you can equip the editor with who's going to be advocating internally so they can quickly summarize and capture what your message is? And be able to relay that. And it should. Should hook them. We call that a hook statement kind of deal.

Yes.

So.

So you got the proposal, the proposal's done, and at this point, you've got you, the author, have the proposal in hand, but you got to go find an agent to take on that proposal, right?

Correct. Yeah. So typically you're going to need to have the proposal in order to get an agent on board. So. So you'll circulate that, find the. The agents that you. That are candidates for you, and you submit that. And then typically they'll give you their feedback and say, yes, I'm interested. Probably want to have an interview with you and talk with you about your book and kind of get a handle on that. But they're going to want to know your platform. So that's why I say, don't forget that piece. That's usually the part that authors forget is I need to include that piece because it's very difficult for us to evaluate just the concept. We can say, oh, it's a great concept, but we can't guarantee that we can sell it through to a publisher unless we know kind of that piece of it. So then once you get an agent signed up, they'll help you finalize and get your proposal to a place where they feel comfortable, then turn around and shopping that to the different publishers. And so they'll identify which publishers would be candidates, and they'll do that process of presenting your proposal to the different publishers. And then hopefully you have some interest. And then that's where the fun begins. Then you start. You get offers and start negotiating the major deal points. Yeah.

And I've been surprised. I mean, that process, from the moment that you start pitching what are called acquisitions editors, right. Publishing houses like Thomas Nelson, Zondervan, Waterbrook, Multnomah, my publisher, whom I love, I'm gonna want to be on the record saying how much I love them. Yeah. Once you get to that point.

And.

And Baker. And Baker, who did a phenomenal job on call to. Great. You know, you. It's a pretty quick process, or it can be right. I mean, from the moment that you send that first pitch to the moment you got a deal can be as short as, I don't know, 60 days, 90 days, something like that.

Yeah, the typical process. So it goes through different. The normal process would be first it goes to an editor, acquisition editor, like you, you identified, and the acquisition editor is going to say yes or no. If they say no, you get a quick response. If they. If yes, is on the table, then it's going to take a little longer for them to get to yes. But if they say yes, they may come back to me, the, the agent with questions, ask some clarifications, and then they will go to what they call Ed board, which is the editorial board that features all the editors. And so all the editors will then that, that one editor will pitch the book to the other editors and then they'll discuss and decide, hey, we think this has is a viable book project. And then they may come back with more questions or clarifications. If it's a yes, if it's a no, you get a quick response that again that way. Otherwise they then take it to what's called pub Board, Publishing board. So the publishing board typically would include the all the editors, the sales and marketing team, as well as the publisher, the office of publisher, who then make the decisions on which particular projects that are presented are going to get an offer. So typically you've got to go through those different stages. And so it takes a couple months, quite frankly, depending on when you hit the different board meetings, the Ed Board and the Pub Board, then you get an offer.

Here's the summary, guys. All the work on the author is on the front end putting together the proposal, starting to build a platform and getting an agent. And once you got an agent, the agent's really doing the work for you to go and sell this thing, right? So, and I could hear all of you asking, how do I find an agent? That's probably one of the most frequently asked questions I get. Just Google them, right? I mean, there are good lists out there of agents who represent your particular piece of literature. Whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction or Christian nonfiction or political nonfiction, whatever it is, there's agents that specialize in those types of books. So dj, I want to ask you a question about this platform piece. So I obviously 100% agree with you. That platform is kind of everything I tell people all the time. Writing a book is 20% of the work of actually bringing a successful book to market. It might be a little less than that. But you know, one, one thing we found with called To Create was we were able to get a book deal, a decent size book deal with a traditional publisher. Baker was generous enough to take a risk on me when I had no platform, no email addresses, basically no social media followers, nothing. And that's contrary to a lot of conventional wisdom out there, which is you gotta have a platform before you have a book deal. What do you think our listeners can learn from our experience getting that deal on culture, create that they could translate to themselves. Who might not have a huge platform today.

Well, I can make a joke about having a great agent, but. But there. But the reality is you had a plan. You didn't have a platform, but you had a very concrete, tangible plan that you had already begun to implement. And so having that concrete, verifiable plan, plus you had a very, very good idea. And you're a compelling person too. So, you know, we had to get on the phone, we had to interview and you had to kind of let them know and they had to experience your energy and excitement. They took a gamble on you for sure. And that's rare, quite frankly, as we've talked about, that's rare. But you did have a, you had a business acumen, a business background that I think gave them some confidence that you could execute on your plan. And again, a well defined plan, both in terms of how you're going to build your platform and how you were going to launch your vote.

That's why I tell people all the time, I'm like, I think the total proposal, with the exception of the sample chapters, was probably, let's call it 12 pages. Does that sound about right?

Yeah, that's probably right.

I think half of it was my plan for building a platform from nothing and launching the book. Right. I just spelled out in detail, here's, I don't have it today, but here's how we're going to get it. And oh, by the way, here's my bio and some other things that I've accomplished in my career to establish some credibility that I. It's kind of the make it here, make it anywhere quality. Oh, he's had success doing these other things. He's got this plan to be successful in this thing. We're going to take a. Take a gamble, right. And by the grace of God, they did. Right. Like, I owe so much to Brian Thomason at Baker Books for, for taking a gam me and to you, DJ for going and selling it. So. All right, last question on the publishing process. And I want to talk a little bit more about you and kind of this intersection of faith and work in terms of the book concept itself. Right. So you, you said a couple minutes ago there's nothing new under the sun quoting Ecclesiastes. What, what makes a compelling concept. Like what are you getting excited about in terms of book concepts these days?

Well, like I said, I think fresh, you know, something that has a unique perspective, something that really is, you Know, what's very successful this day is something that's addressing a felt need, you know, when there is a kind of someone who's dialed in to something that's happening in culture, something that's happening within the church, you know, because of the Christian context, which we're talking, whatever that is, in terms of the Christian walker faith, where that's something that really resonates with what people are. Are struggling with or issues that we're facing. And here's a fresh look and a fresh angle on that. Or it's, you know, some, like, if it's a memoir, obviously, which is more story. It's just a, you know, every story is unique, that it's just a very compelling story that will really resonate with people, that will really move them and shape them and impact their lives. So the goal is, you know, what I want to be a part of is impacting culture for good. You know, really moving, ideally, moving people towards the gospel, to a greater understanding of the gospel, to understanding kind of their individual value and their value in the context of our Creator.

I love that. So that's a good transition.

Right?

We're starting to talk theology here. Right. So you're a seminary grad. You have a very well formed theology of, of work. It's one of the things, one of the reasons why I decided to sign with you as my agent. I thought you, you know, when I was shopping, called to Crate, I was like, okay, this guy, this guy gets what I'm trying to say. This guy gets this idea of a God who works, of a God who creates, of a God who's productive. Not everybody gets that right away. So how does your faith influence your work? Very broad question. Right, but like, how does your faith influence your work as a literary agent?

There's lots of layers to that, I guess I'd say. The company that I first worked with, the founder of, that Robert Fraley, he had a standard of excellence. He wanted to do things excellently. And he was very cautious about raising the Christian flag, as is often the case. People can raise the flag and say, I'm a Christian, do business with me. And so for him, it was very much, I want to wave the excellent flag. And so come do this, do business.

With me, the ministry of excellence, right?

Yes, absolutely. And he really embodied that and really drove that home. And that had been something that had driven me just pretty much my academic pursuits. That's really kind of where I excelled and where I invested heavily up until that point, because I came straight out of college Essentially, and started working for them and right out of law school as well. And so that was really something that I enjoyed. So doing things excellently and with integrity and to God's glory. And there's lots of ways that that kind of manifests and shapes in terms of how you do business. So just, I think remembering who you work for and who is caring for you and who's providing for you, kind of a case in point would be the transition after the plane crash. So I was. I'd been with the company five years at that point. I was a vice president. Had just. Just moved up to vice president that prior earlier that year, or maybe late the year before. I don't remember the exact timing of when that happened. But most of the clients that we had, their relationship was with Robert and then secondarily with Van. And I was down the totem pole, you know, in terms of connection. That's just. That was appropriate in the way the business works. So I would be on point for certain clients and would spend time with them and servicing them on behalf of the company. But a big part of my job was negotiating deals, finding deals and negotiating deals. And so I was in the office quite a bit rather than out on the field, so to speak, as a result of that. So when Robert and Van died, the primary relationship that most of our clients had were gone. And while we had representation agreements with all of those clients where we could have contractually kept them under contract, it wasn't the spirit of the relationship. Right. And so we made a decision that we would let. We would release everybody from their contract. Anybody who wanted to go elsewhere would have the freedom to seek representation elsewhere, and we would facilitate that for them. We wanted them to pay what was due under the existing contracts and the terms of those existing contracts. So. So if there were renewals and things like that, then the family would benefit from that, but the company itself wouldn't necessarily. So we were releasing everybody because we felt like that honored the relationship and honored God in the process. And that's just an example of a decision that had a lot of sacrifice for us in that. But I think it was the right thing to do. And that's guided by some deeper principles than what's just best for you.

So we talked about this, I don't know, maybe six months ago. So in the context of Master of one, right? So you have two businesses, right? You have Legacy, this literary agenting business, very successful, but you also have a mental health practice. And we were talking about how you very much see these Two things as one thing, you know, so in the book I talk about specific one things and broad one things, right? So for example, this guy that tunes my pianos at my house, he's tuned pianos for 30 years. That's all he does. He's world class at it. He's a piano tuner. Very specific. C.S. lewis's one thing was much broader, Right. He was a teacher and he applied that one thing in multiple contexts, to writing, to teaching at a university, to being a radio broadcaster, et cetera. So you described your one thing to me as really helping people reach their potential, which I love. I mean that, that's certainly what you do for me.

Right.

I could not reach my potential without you being my agent on the literary side, but also in the mental health practice. So I'm curious, like how your faith, how the gospel has motivated this like, deep passion in you to help people realize their full potential. Can you talk about that?

People often make the comment like these two things don't seem similar at all, right. To the mental health counselor and agent, but they really are, they really are about helping people become is one way I say that. And one is very intimate and the other is a little bit more professional. You know, obviously in counseling you're getting into deep places and you're walking there with them, and the other is more at a professional level, but you're still, still connecting and helping people grow. And really from a faith perspective, we're all created in God's image. And so part of our journey, I think, is bringing forth God's image more in how we live and for his image to be more manifest and how we live, how we work, how we play, all those different things. And one of those is obviously as creator, you know, your first book called To Create, he was a creator. And so we are, we have that in us. And so, for example, authors that, you know, helping them realize their creator potential, helping that manifest itself in this, this thing that they felt deep inside, they want to, they want to share and to realize that is not a selfish, self glorifying thing. It really is. Part of what we're meant to be and do is to, to give of ourselves in that ways and share ourselves that way. To, to bring that forth.

Yeah, it's interesting your, your background in seminary and just your experience as a Christ follower gives you an appreciation for and an understanding of God's character, who he is, and because we're created in his image, who we are meant to be. And so kind of bringing out that human potential is just making us more fully human. Right. And make it us more like the God that we were called to image. That's a really, really beautiful way in which your work very practically is the hands and feet of God's work in the world. I love that.

I think there's a big, oftentimes in our Christian culture a real emphasis on our depravity. And there's a place, you know, to be very mindful of that, to under understand, you know, okay, we're sinners, yes, but we also, as a result of having his image, have tremendous dignity and kind of reflecting his glory through that and really helping people call that forth. That just excites me for people to get in touch with their dignity and that's in the counseling room as well as for an author or a sports client reaching their potential professionally.

I love that. That's so well said. It's interesting. One of the things I appreciate about my pastor is how much we talk about sin, how much we talk about the depravity, man. But, but you're right, I've never thought about that. We can, we can forget in the constant reminder of our sin as a means of more deeply appreciating the gospel, we can forget that we are image bearers, right. That we are vice regents, right. That we are called to image him. And, and we have that. That gives us tremendous power and confidence, confidence to go out in the world and as NT Wright says, build for the kingdom, create for the kingdom. That's our purpose. That's the mission of the church. So speaking of speaking of which, speaking of creating for the kingdom, I think there's probably a lot of people, not probably. I know there are a lot of people listening to this episode who are doing work that is not overtly evangelical, that is not overtly waving the Christian flag. And part of the, the reason for this podcast and all of my work is to help those people see that their work is eternally significant, even if they never shout the name of Jesus in their logos or in their brochures. Right. So let's talk specifically about writers. Right. I have lots of friends who are writing books or want to write books that makes no mention of their faith, but they're devoted followers of Christ. What encouragement do you have for those people about the significance, the eternal significance of bringing that book to life?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that's just, that's again, just a reflection of God's, God's image. Right. So he gave us the Word of God, you know, the Bible, which is, you know, would be maybe the equivalent of our specific when we're writing specifically about Christ, about God, you know, about the Christian life. But he also made trees that speak spectacularly of his glory without overtly having God written on them. Right. I mean, he is written on them, but it's just, it's just such a beautiful picture. When you look at, you know, I think about sea turtles. They, you know, they hatch from a beach and they go out into the ocean and somehow they come back to that same beach to lay their eggs the next time around. It's just, you know, it's unbelievable, like how the design is and that. So I look at something that's not overtly Christian, that's fine. It's general revelation. Right. And. And God chooses to speak through general revelation as opposed to special revelation, to use theological terms. And that creates a vehicle for people who may not be open to a more directed, specific revelation to come in contact with God's dignity, who God has made them to be and how he's working. So it's not less than. It's just a different approach. Yeah, I love that.

All right, so you work in the book world, so I'm very excited to ask you this question that I ask every guest. Which books do you gift the most or recommend the most to others?

So in my counseling practice, the one that I probably, because I work with a lot of men, is Wild at Heart. It's a John Eldredge book and it's a good, just kind of entry level book. He does a great job of tapping into pop culture as a way for, for men to kind of have some handholds into issues that they're struggling with. So that's. That would be probably.

I think you're the fourth guest that's mentioned Wild at Heart. And I haven't read this book in, I don't know, 15 years. I'm like, maybe I need to go back and reread this thing. I think I had somebody on here say that they read it every year, which, like, blew my mind. So that's a good one. What, what else?

Oh, gosh, let's see. What else do I. Would I, you ask, what do I give away? I give away a lot of client books. You know, Quiet Strength is certainly a winner, you know, in most contexts because it's just such a, such a great story. And I, you know, I can speak to the validity of the person that's behind it. Now in terms of if somebody really likes fiction, I would say you've got to read Lord of The Rings. I love that story because it has so much depth to it.

So good.

And for families, obviously, Chronicles of Narnia, something like that. But, yeah, I love it.

All right, what one person would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences the work that they do?

I was thinking about this, and I was thinking Dolly Parton.

Interesting. That's a great answer, isn't it?

I mean, I just thought, wow, what a fascinating person who is so grounded, who has cut. Who has touched multiple industries, you know, be it music, be it film, be it her amusement parks. And there's probably businesses I don't even know about that she's been involved with. And yet she seems to have a very rooted and grounded faith and a real love for people and even love for her people, you know, just in terms of her commitment to. To building Dollywood and creating an income stream in an area of the country that. That often struggled but defined a viable industry and turned out, you know, made a fantastically, at least from what I can tell, very successful business enterprise.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that. That's. As I thought about that.

I was like, that's an amazing answer. And now she's, like, dominating podcasting. So she's got.

I haven't even. Yeah, yeah.

So she. She launched a podcast, I don't know, a few months ago. Now it looks like it's, like, doing really well. So, yeah, we got to try to get Dolly Parton on the podcast. That would be amazing.

Who wouldn' Sit down with Dolly Parton?

That'd be incredible.

You know, it's going to be fun. And she's. I mean, my sense is that she's that same kind of congruence, you know, consistent throughout, that she's just a very kind person. It seems I'd be interested to get to know her and see.

That's one of the more surprising answers to that question I've got. But I love it. That's one of my favorites. All right, what one piece of advice. So let's tie a bow on this author conversation. Somebody out there, it's January 1st, they want to write a book this year. You've given a lot of advice. You've talked about platform, you've talked about the concept being strong and what they need to do to get a proposal. What's the one thing they could do today to move the ball forward towards getting a book published?

Probably write your elevator pitch for your book. Tap into that one to three sentence summary of this is what I want to write about. Like, if you having a Clear vision for yourself of what it is you want to write, what it is you want to say. And that's really it. What is it that I want? What's the core message that I want to communicate? You know, and concurrent with that, and who is it I want to communicate it to? Identifying those two elements and just sitting down for, you know, a few minutes to, however long you need, just to kind of parse that out.

That's really good advice. And I think that's. That may be the hardest thing to do in the. In the writing process is. Is nailing that. What is the one idea you want to communicate in a book that you think needs to be communicated in a fresh, new way and related to that, kind of attached to that question is, who's this for? I think if you answered those two questions in a really compelling way, you're. You're onto something great. And then from there, make an outline and all that good stuff. I love that. By the way, I was just thinking, if anybody listening wants to see the book proposal D.J. and I worked on for Called to Create, I don't know if he's okay with this, but I'm okay with. With people getting access to that privately. Just shoot me an email. Jordanrayner.com and I'd be happy to share kind of the arc that we followed for that. Might. Might have to redact a few things, but for the most part, it's. It's pretty well intact. Hey, if you've got a book concept that you think DJs would like to read, you can find him at legacy-management.com DJ, I just want to commend you for just being so exceptionally good at what you do. It is no exaggeration whatsoever to say that this podcast, my career as an author, would not exist if it were not for DJ Snell. So thank you for being excellent at what you do. Thank you for the ministry of excellence. Thank you for bringing out the best in others and really viewing that as the work that God has given you to do. You're incredibly good at it, and I'm very grateful for that. And hey, thanks for hanging out with me for a few minutes on this podcast.

Well, thank you for those words, and that's really kind of you, and I appreciate the opportunity to be here and join with you. Certainly exciting for me too.

So appreciative to DJ for sharing all that wisdom with us. Hey, and I was serious about. About you guys getting access to my book proposal for called the Great. If you want a copy of that Just let me know. I'd be happy to send it along. And while we're talking about books, I'm going to remind you again, Master of One comes out in less than three weeks. But if you pre order it, you're going to enter to win a chance to have dinner with me in Barcelona, go tour the world's largest church, La Sagrada Familia, and then go on a seven night European cruise. So go to Jordan Rayner right now to enter to win that sweepstakes. Hey, before you go, I got another shorter conversation I want to share with you that's very applicable. On New Year's Day. I sat down with the author, Drew Dick, who wrote a book called you'd Future Self Will thank you. Which is actually celebrating its one year book birthday today. This is the perfect book to start your new year. It's a book about the self control that's necessary to reach some of your New Year's resolutions. But Drew writes from a biblically sound perspective, which I very much, obviously appreciate. It's a funny book, It's a practical book. I think it's really essential to anybody who's setting big resolutions for 2020. So I recently sat down to ask Drew a couple of questions about the book. Here's my conversation with Drew D.

Drew.

Thanks so much for joining me, man.

Hey, thanks for having me on. I'm excited about this.

Yeah. So we're releasing this conversation on January 1st, so happy new Year's to everybody. And this is the first birthday of your book, right?

It is. That's true because it came out January 1, 2019.

Yeah. So happy birthday to your future self. Well, thank you. And I, I think people are going to see very quickly why we're talking about this book on New Year's Day, so. So tell us, what's the book about, Drew?

Yeah, well, it's funny because the book actually grew out of a personal frustration with New Year's resolutions because I had the experience, I think a lot of people do, of, you know, coming to the end of the year, getting all excited about the next year, making these New Year's resolutions and then a few days, maybe a few weeks into the new year, realizing that you've fallen flat on your face and kept none of your resolutions. And so honestly for me, it was just, it was a personal journey at first, wanting to figure out how to shore up my self control, how to grow in this area. I wish I could say I was attracted to the topic because my self control was so incredible and I was Like a ninja of personal discipline. But the reverse is true. And so initially, actually I was just reading for myself, researching all about self control from a biblical and a scientific perspective, try to grow in this area. And then I realized somewhere along the way, hey, maybe there's something that would be helpful for other people as well. And so it kind of morphed into a book project. And I'm just hoping it can be helpful for other people too.

I think the best books start with really selfish questions. Right. Like, I think about that a lot. So my first book called To Create was born out of like, very selfish questions I had about, like, how do Christian entrepreneurs more deeply integrate their faith with their work? So tell our audience what they're going to get out of this book. Like walk them through kind of the structure of the book. I have thoroughly enjoyed the book myself, but these people haven't even, you know, read the introduction. So give us an overview of what they're going to take away from your future self. Well, thank you.

Sure.

Basically, it's like a primer. A primer. However you say that on the topic. And so, you know, I first, I start out by talking about my personal struggle being, you know, pretty transparent about that. And then looking at, you know, why is self control so important? And it really is. Researchers call it an instrumental virtue, meaning that you need self control if you're going to grow in other areas of your life. Life. And it's so true because if you think about it, can you be faithful without self control? Can you be honest, patient, kind, hardworking? You need self control for all these things. So just talking about the importance of it from a practical and a biblical perspective. And then I get a little bit into the research looking at willpower and the role that plays the research on that. I look at habits and how that can really help you because you get these automatic routines, hopefully healthy habits that can kind of carry you and help you grow in this area. And then some of the challenges, right? I mean, and some of them are just kind of been around forever. But then other challenges, like the inundation that we have with tech these days, distracting us, tempting us to various things, how do we deal with that? Hopefully giving some practical strategies for people on how to be better in this area.

So we talk a lot about habits and routines on this show. So I'm curious, after going through this process of doing all this research, first for yourself and then for this book, what, what personal habits and routines have you implemented in your own life?

Yeah, great question. And some of Them have been really simple, just kind of like. And they say the best way to establish a good habit is to replace it with a bad one. Right. So I realized, like, early on, one of the goals I had when I started this book was just to read my Bible every morning. I thought that was a better way to start the day than jumping on social media, which was my bad habit. And not that social media is bad, it's fine, but it's just not that the way I wanted to start the day. Scrolling through Twitter. And so no matter how hard I tried, though, to start my day reading scripture, I would inevitably reach for my phone instead. And instead of getting on my Bible app, I'd go on Twitter and then email and then a kid would walk into my room and the day begins. Right. Never get around to reading my Bible. And so understanding that I had a habit in place there was important. And what I eventually had to do is actually move the phone off my nightstand, haul my big black Bible out of retirement, plunk it down there instead of. But it was kind of cool because I was conditioned to consume content as soon as my, you know, alarm went off and I got out of bed. But now instead of reaching for the phone, the Bible is there.

Yeah.

So it was cool. Just by kind of doing surgery on the habit loop, you know, keeping the cue the same, waking up and reaching for something to read, I was able to. To establish a new healthy habit. Did that with some other areas too.

I was just talking to, you know, John. Mark Comer's work.

You bet. Absolutely. He's a local guy. We live like 10 miles apart. So though.

I didn't know you were in Portland.

I am. Yeah. Well, actually I'm just north of Portland in Vancouver, Washington, right across the border. But I'm 15 minutes from downtown.

Vancouver is one of my favorite cities in the world. I love it so much.

Awesome.

I was just talking to John Mark yesterday and we were. He. He said something about, I think it was like 90 plus percent of Americans keep their phone on their nightstand, which is like mind boggling to me.

I believe it.

I've never kept it on my night. Well, I shouldn't say never. I haven't in years. Kept it on my nightstand. I think it's a big, big, big productivity hack. So. Hey, who's this book for?

Yeah, well, it's kind of cheating because the subtitles about something like for sinners, quitters and procrastinators. I realize that's pretty broad, but I would say it's for anyone who you know, obviously it's geared toward Christians. And so if you're not a Christian, some people have read it that aren't believers and have benefited somewhat, but it kind of assumes a Christian worldview and perspective and that the Bible is something that we want to follow and believe. And so Christians that find themselves, you know, it's like, okay, I've got enough. I have a lot of theological knowledge. I believe I should be doing these things, but I find myself unable to do them. Not because a lack of information or inspiration, but because really I lack self control and discipline. And so it's a way that people like that can grow. So pretty broad. But I think there are a lot of people, though, that this is not even on the radar. They're like, oh, no, I don't need more self control. I just need to more or fully express myself or something. But for people that realize, hey, I got a deficiency in this area, I'm hoping the book is helpful.

Yeah, good.

So the audience for this podcast, the people listening to this episode, are ambitious professionals. These are Christians who have integrated their faith with their work, and that is leading them to be more ambitious for their career, doing more exceptional work for the glory of God primarily, and the good of others. So for that person specifically, what are they going to get from this book? How is this book going to serve that particular audience? Well, yeah.

Wow, that's intimidating. That sounds like some really sharp, driven people. Probably more so than me. But I think actually sometimes when you're in that camp, right, when you are someone who's really focused, maybe even a little Type A and driven to change the world, and that's all great. Sometimes self control means slowing down and putting some boundaries in your life around work and your personal life. One of the things I found really helpful researching this book was what they call a bright lines strategy, where you kind of have these bright lines in your life, whether it's food, your use of tech that prevent you from going overboard in certain areas. So for instance, when it comes to technology use, a bright line strategy might be, I don't look at my phone past 7:00pm, you know, or my family. We do something called no Screen Sunday, which is just what it sounds like, where it's like, okay, on Sunday, we're going to look each other in the eyes, we're going to go for a hike. We're not going to sit there and watch tv. Dad's off his phone. We do it imperfectly. I'm usually the one who breaks it. But I think especially when you're really driven. You need some. And it's counterintuitive because you think self control is just about being more productive. But sometimes it's about slowing down too, because that's tough.

Yeah, that's incredibly well said and reminds me a lot. We were just talking about John Mark Comer reminds me a lot of his new book, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. So two great books. Hey Drew, I just want to thank you for writing this book. I have enjoyed it. I've appreciated it for myself and I know that my audience audience is going to really love this book as well. So thanks for taking a few minutes to chat about it.

Hey, thank you so much. It's been fun.

The book is your future self, Will.

Thank you.

You can pick up a copy right now wherever books are sold.

Hey, thank you for listening to the.

Call to Mastery as I look out on 2020 and I look at the projects that I'm most excited about. Yeah, I just keep coming back to this podcast, maybe even other podcasts, other forms of audio in 2020. Who knows?

No.

But I love making this show for you. I hope you guys enjoy listening these conversations as much as I enjoy putting them together for you and bringing these people into your ears, into your homes.

Right.

So thank you again for being such a loyal listener to the show. Happy New Year and I'll see you next week.

Sam.