Dr. Andreas Köstenberger (Theologian)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as painters Managers and civil engineers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to the brilliant Dr. Andreas Costenberger. He's one of the world's leading theologians. And listen, you guys know we don't have a lot of theologians or pastors or religious professionals on the podcast, but sometimes I love bringing in somebody who can go deep on a topic. And Dr. Costenberger is one of those. When I was writing master of one years ago, Dr. Costenberger's book on excellence was one of my top resources in researching a theology of excellence. And that's what we talked about on today's episode. We talked about specifically the three spheres of excellence that every Christian is called to. We talked about why so many Christians are not pursuing excellence and are instead addicted to mediocrity. And we talked about the importance of calling out the God given excellence in others. I loved this conversation with my new friend, Dr. Andreas Costenberger. Doctor Costenberger, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Great to be with you today, Jordan. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, we don't have a lot of theologians or pastors on the show, but from time to time I love bringing in somebody like yourself to go really deep on a topic that's relevant to the mere Christians who are listening. And I've been wanting to have you on for a while to discuss this older book of yours on excellence, which I loved when I was writing Master of One. This was one of my favorite books as I did that research. And you say in that book that as we pursue excellence, we must first contemplate the excellence of God. Unpack that for us. Why must that be our starting point?

Excellence has to be grounded in the character of God. And so even the subtitle of the book, as you know, is the Character of God and the Pursuit of Scholarly Virtues. So the entire first chapter is on God's excellence. And you know, so I looked at systematic theologies, you know, some of the major ones out there, and even they didn't have that much on the excellence of God. They had some different, different words for it. But so again, I had to kind of break new ground and I went to the Scriptures and I realized there's just so much there that sometimes we're very anthropocentric in our thinking, you know, and we, we don't start with God. Most books on excellence don't start with God. And I really felt starting with God was the right place to start. We're created in his image, and so we're as Image bearers. And so we are to reflect some of the excellence of our Creator. And so that's why I started with God.

No, that makes perfect sense. I mean, Genesis 1:26, you know, we're made in the image of God. He has to be the starting point for how we understand ourselves and our own work. But what evidence do we have that God works with excellence? We could take this at a million different directions, right? But point to the Scripture. Show us where we see. Where. Where can we see around us the excellent work of God's hands?

Well, of course, you have the Psalms that extol the excellence of God in creation. We see that all around us. And so that would be natural revelation. But then in my case, I was looking for passages in the New Testament especially, and I came upon this passage in Second Peter, chapter one, which is far and away the most important passage on that topic. And I was just really intrigued because it starts out, I have it in front of me, Second Peter, chapter one, verse three. His divine power has granted us, us all things that pertain to life and godliness, or the way I would gloss it, God has given us everything we need to lead a godly life. And then in verse four, it says that he's done that basically by introducing us to a relationship with Jesus Christ and has made us what Peter calls partakers of the divine nature, which is really an intriguing way to refer to, you know, the indwelling Holy Spirit. And then verse five, and that really caught my attention. It says, for this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with excellence, or other translations say with virtue. God has given us everything we need to lead a godly life in and through our relationship with Jesus Christ in the Spirit. And so for this very reason, we ought to supplement our faith with excellence. So I was thinking, well, supplement our faith doesn't sound like the Reformation doctrine of sola fide right faith alone. Apparently faith is not enough if you understand it in the right way. And of course, James says pretty much the same thing. You know, we need to use our faith as a launching pad, as a starting point, to supplement it with excellence. And then there's a list of virtues given. So excellence, I think, is primarily defined, but not exclusively as in a moral sense. You know, because God is holy, he is perfect in every way. So we ought to cultivate moral excellence. But then in my book that you mentioned, in excellence, I actually talk about three different kinds of areas of excellence. I talked about vocational excellence, excellence at work. I talk about moral excellence of character and Then thirdly, I talk about relational excellence, excellence in relationships. And I find each of those are discussed in Scripture. And so I singled out four or five virtues in each of those three categories.

Yeah, it's interesting, I think, about that Dorothy Sayers quote all the time, that the great practical theologian, not a serious scholarly one like yourself, but where she says, no piety in the worker will compensate for work that is not true to itself. And in there, I think she's connecting. I think she's viewing vocational excellence as a subset of moral excellence. She's saying that, hey, listen, I think.

It'S very important to realize that every Christian is called to pursue excellence because, you know, that passage in Second Peter makes it very clear that this is not just for a spiritual elite. It is for everyone. And it also requires effort. You know, sometimes I think because of our reliance on grace, we're a little bit reluctant to go there. But I think Peter, like James, is very clear that this is not just something that happens automatically. It's actually something we have to make every effort. We have to be intentional about it.

Dr. Kassenberger, you've studied this topic more deeply than almost anyone anyone I know. When you look at God's Word, how does God's definition of excellence differ from the world's?

Well, I think it is integrated. It's not compartmentalizing different kinds of excellence. You know, he looks at us holistically as whole persons. And so it doesn't work for us to say, well, personally, I'm a jerk, but I'm doing good work. You know, we have to keep things together. We have to strive to be people of impeccable moral character as well as strive for excellence in our work. And we also have to. To strive to be, you know, loving, to be good in building community, the relational aspect of being created in God's image. So all of the above, not just, you know, we pick and choose just parts of our lives where we want to, you know, excel. Yeah.

I was reading the Parable of the talents for the 500 time. Whatever. I was thinking about the implications of that parable on our definition of excellence. And I think as I read that, I'm like, yeah, you know what? Unlike the world, I think God defines excellence as stewardship as not being the best, but doing the best with what he has given us. Would you agree? Is that a fair application of Jesus's words in the Parable of the Talent?

I totally agree. That's what I always tell people, that we ought to be the best we can be in light of who God made us to be. And so, you know, we each need to basically, increasingly, I think our entire lives are basically, you know, you could say they're a journey toward God's calling for our lives and to get to know ourselves better in light of how God made us. Now, that may involve getting feedback from others, you know, trial and error, you know, variety of just trying out different areas of vocation. But in the end, hopefully we are in sync with who God uniquely made us to be, which is why comparing ourselves with others is such a. Is so detrimental to finding our. Our true calling before God. Because God has made each of us.

Unique and because the pursuit of that excellence is part of how we love our neighbors, ourselves, right? And glorify God. I think about Jesus words in the Sermon on the Mount, let your light shine before others that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father is in heaven. What evidence do we see in Scripture that excellent work vocationally, morally, relationally can glorify the Father? Do we see evidence of that throughout Scripture?

Well, I think again, I would start with the character of God. And you know, as we do excellent work, we reflect God's own character, who's excellent in all his works. And again, that includes his character and his works, right? So again, they go together in God's case. And so they also should, you know, go together in our case. You know, I sometimes wonder, like, since everybody is called to pursue excellence in scripture, like I mentioned earlier, not just a spiritual elite, why is it that so many Christians don't pursue excellence? You know, and I remember when I first started thinking about that topic, I was very interested in the arts and was wondering why so few churches, you know, that's part of their vision. And I read this older book by Frankie Schaeffer, remember him? The son of noted apologist Francis Schaeffer? It was called Addicted to Mediocrity.

Such a good book.

And it really resonated with me because I agreed with him that, you know, for many Christians, maybe it's because we rely on grace and think, I guess we don't have to strive for excellence. And so I started thinking about, so why would not more Christians pursue excellence? I thought of at least three or four things. One, that, you know, we think excellence is just for the select few. You know, it's not for everyone. It's just many people think it's beyond me. Or we think that excellence is unattainable. You know, we think the best we can do is just kind of make it through the day and. And do the best we can. But excellence, you know, that's beyond our grasp. I would say. No, it's not. We just have to focus. We have to get in sync with God's calling for our lives, and we have to learn to do a few things. Well.

Yes.

Or we may think excellence is self effort. And so we feel like, no, no, no. We want to, you know, just rely on God's grace. But I think Second Peter one strikes such a beautiful balance because Peter starts out by saying that God graciously gave us everything that we need in Christ to pursue excellence, but on the basis of grace. He then urges us to make every effort. Right. So it's both and not either or we have to pursue excellence because of God's grace. And finally, we think excellence is perfectionism, you know, so we wouldn't want to be, you know, kind of obsessive compulsive. And, you know, perfectionism is ugly. But I don't think God's excellence should be confused with perfectionism. I think rather I look at our pursuit of excellence as striving with God's help to maximize our created potential.

Yes, that's so well said. Yeah. I think about it this way. Nowhere in scripture do we see God calling us to the attainment of some level of said excellence. He calls us to the pursuit of it. Right. I think it's one of the things we see in the parable of the talents. He's called us to steward these gifts, but he never demands that we achieve any certain result. He's honored in the striving of. Of us putting those talents to work as excellently as we know how, to his glory and the good of others. Is that right? Am I interpreting that right?

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, it makes me think of Paul's incredible statement where he says, brothers, I don't consider that I've made it my own. But one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ. And then he says, let those of us who are mature think this way. And so I think he's a great role model of that. And this is the Apostle Paul, who for most of us, you know, he's a spiritual giant. But he says, I haven't attained it yet, but I don't care. I'm just gonna press on.

Yeah, I think you've hit on a lot of the reasons why many Christians are addicted to mediocrity. I want to go A little deeper on one more though. I think part of this is tied to a lack of understanding of the eternal purpose of our work with the material world. Right. So we get to work and we say spiritual realm good, material world bad. And so sure, I'm going to be excellent at making disciples, but the work itself with the material world doesn't really matter because material things aren't eternal, which is obviously a heretical lie.

Right.

Like encourage believers to this end. Help them make that connection between the goodness of the material world and thus the commitment to excellence as we work with the material things around us. Can you expound on that for a few minutes?

Well, I think you put it very well and it's an area maybe I haven't thought as much about it. You obviously have, you know, but I couldn't agree more. I think it's this modern Gnosticism, if you will, right. As you know, that heresy would distinguish between the material and the spiritual world and, and say, you know, what we do in the body is inferior or doesn't matter or is of less lesser value. And sometimes, maybe as Christians we might maybe, you know, without meaning to act like we're modern day Gnostics who put a lesser value on what we do in the body or, you know, our work world. So we again compartmentalize and we dichotomize. And the fact is that Scripture affirms that everything God created is good. And you know, that includes marriage and includes the family, it includes our work, it includes everything, I think what I've seen in my work and I've taught at seminaries for a long time. You know, we typically focus on the Great Commission, but we have a very narrow definition of what the Great Commission is.

Oh, this is my favorite soapbox. Keep going, keep going.

Absolutely what it entails. And so, you know, I mean, it plays well, right to the donors and to the gallery. But is it really the true biblical vision of excellence and of what it means, you know, to glorify God? So, yeah, I just elaborating, you know, on what you already said there.

Listen, you're way more studied up on this than I am, but I want to see if you agree with my hypothesis, something I've been doodling on for a long time. When I look back at church history, it's really in the last couple hundred years that we have functionally turned the Great Commission to make disciples, which to be clear, is a non optional command for every follower of Jesus. We've functionally elevated it to the only commission that Jesus's followers feel called to. To the neglect of the first commission in the Garden of Eden just to take this material world and make more of it. Right. And if that's true, I think that's the root of this divide we place between the spiritual and the material. The Great Commission is all there is. And the gospel is Jesus coming to save me from my sins and taking my soul to a disembodied afterlife, then who cares about excellence at work, right? But if Jesus came to make all things new, to fully reinstate me to the first commission of filling the earth and subduing it and ruling it for his glory and the good of others, now what I do with the material world matters a great deal. And the Great Commission is a part of that project of putting every square inch of creation, spirit, spiritual and material under the lordship of this world's rightful king, Jesus Christ. Amen.

Absolutely. You know, I think the mistake there that I think a lot of people in the evangelical world are making today is that they think that the Great Commission replaces the cultural mandate the way it's given in Genesis 1. But I think it is just placed within the orbit of the original command. When God said there in Genesis 1:28, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion over it. That command has never been rescinded. You know, that continues to apply. And then the Great Commission is just given by the risen Jesus to the church in addition, you know, and in further elaboration of it. It's more a matter of fulfillment rather than replacement.

If you will say more about that. Are you saying that the Great Commission is a restatement, a reframing of that first commission in Genesis 1?

Well, I think obviously the Genesis 1 command was given prior to the Fall. And so if the fall had never occurred, that would have been the only command that was needed. But then because of the Fall, the world is fallen. You know, it doesn't mean that there's nothing good or beautiful left, but it required mission, required salvation, required Jesus sacrifice on the cross for our sins, but it's still the same creation that we live in. And so the idea of making disciples, making followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, you know, he is now the perfect image of God. So he reflects God perfectly. And so he becomes then the second Adam, if you will. So in. In Scripture, there's a very organic relationship between the first Adam and the second Adam. And so again, Jesus is more the fulfillment of God's original vision that's already there in Genesis 1.

Yeah. I just go back to Jesus words in the Sermon on the Mount. Part of the way the people will give glory to our Father who is in heaven is through the good work that we do. Like I think about Nehemiah in Nehemiah 6, right? He's, he's facing all this opposition, right? The walls completed in 52 days, which sounds absurdly fast, right? And he says, hey, when all of our enemies heard about this, all the surrounding nations were afraid and lost their self confidence because they realized that this work had been done with the help of our God, right? Like, I think the people looked around at this crazy feat of rebuilding this wall in 52 days and they had to assign glory and weight to God because that was the only possible way that that work could get done. And I think that's true today day. As we do our work with excellence, right? Vocationally and morally and relationally, man, that raises eyebrows and gives evidence to the God that we believe in, right?

Yeah, that's right. I think excellence I found to be such a great category in my Christian life, you know, that that encompasses doing my work well, also to become the person God wants me to be and has made me to be and in Christ that by the Spirit I can be also to be an excellent Father and husb. Which is again, you know, a great challenge in a lifetime journey. I think sometimes, Jordan, we act like we glorify God more by our mediocrity than by our excellence, you know, and of course that's, that's utterly absurd. Certainly if we pursue excellence, I think sometimes the temptation for us would be to be complacent and to be, quite frankly, lazy. And to think that because we're the recipients of God's grace, you know, we can basically just not strive to be excellent at work or to pursue sanctification rigorously. I think that's clearly not true. I think the second Peter 1 passage.

Shows that, yeah, it's just this general posture of intentionality to life, that we are not saved to wait around for Christ's return or wait around until we they head to the present heaven, but that we are safe for a purpose. This Ephesians 2, 8, 10. Right? Like, right, we're safe not by our works, but we are safe for those works. My pastor has this phrase he uses a lot. He just like made up this word intentional. But I love that that's, that's the right way to think about it. And I think it's what we see in the model of Christ. I think it's what we See, in Paul, right? Like Paul was an incredibly disciplined, intense and intentional person.

Right, Absolutely. You know, we already talked about the passage that's from Philippians, chapter three, and, and I think I love the Gospel of John. I think my life verse or one of them is John 15, verse 8, which says, by this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit. And so proved to be my disciples. And I perceive you, Jordan, as somebody who is living by that as well. That we want to be productive, we want to be effective, we want to be strategic. You know, we want to be excellent in every way. And I think that is our calling. You know, we're not just called to be a fruit, we're called to be much fruit. And God prunes us and refines us and, and discipline so that we maximize our fruit production, if you will.

That's exactly right. I want to go back to something you said a few minutes ago. Just that lifelong process of vocational pruning and discernment and trying to find that work that one can do best in service of neighbor. I think there's a lot of listeners who are frustrated because they don't feel like they found that thing or economic realities. Living in a post Genesis 3 world has kept them from doing the work they feel God has equipped them to do most exceptionally well in service of neighbor. When you look ahead to the new earth, as you've studied the New Testament, it, you know, Isaiah 65 says we're going to long enjoy the work of our hands. Revelation 22:5 says that we are going to reign forever and ever with Christ. Do you think that on the new earth we're finally going to find that thing? We're finally going to be able to do that work that God created us to do most exceptionally well for his glory. Is that going to be our eternal vocation?

I believe we will work in heaven because, you know, sometimes we think of work and it's somewhat a drudgery or, you know, kind of negative sense, but not you, but many of us. And so I think we need to get used to the idea that God doesn't look at work that way. And so certainly I think, you know, as a parent, I've come to see how vital it is, you know, for my children who are now all, you know, grown to find their place in this world and to find a line of work that they enjoy doing. It is fulfilling and also that glorifies God because they're using the talents God has given them. And so I think even in parenting, and my wife And I wrote, you know, a couple books on parenting. We encourage people. We have a chapter on Mission. You know, the idea that one of the key and very gratifying things about being a parent is to encourage our children to gradually, you know, by trial and error and then finding out, you know, their strengths and weaknesses, getting feedback from other people to find out what they're good at, and then to do that for the glory of God.

When I was growing up, the overriding career advice I got from my terrific parents and every other well intended adult in my life was like, do what makes you happy, right? Like, follow your passions, follow your dreams. How is your advice to your kids more nuanced than that? It sounds like you're telling them to follow their gifts. What does that advice sound like and what does that look like, practically?

Well, I think certainly as a parent, I'm trying to observe, I'm trying to take a listening approach and to watch them and see what they get passionate about. You know, if they talk about something and they. They really, you can tell, they get excited about it. You know, like one of our daughters, she's a dietitian. I recently came across this essay she wrote in middle school about healthy eating. And I was thinking, how did I miss that? You know, there were some early indications, you know, that she really loves both eating well and then helping other people to eat well. And so she now focuses on. On basically early childhood nutrition and helping people in impoverished areas like India and other places, you know, to know how to eat better. You know, mothers and social workers and so forth. It's a wonderful, fulfilling calling for her. And it was a matter of. Of just listening, you know, to her heart and kind of almost drawing out, you know, what's there. I think there's a proverb that talks about, you know, desires of our hearts. They're deeply buried within, but God or wisdom, right, draws it out.

This is wild. This morning I was talking with Nikki Gumbel, pioneer of Alpha over in the uk, and he quoted that exact same proverb, drawing out the deep well in others. And it's interesting to apply that to our children. And not just children, anyone around us being able to speak into them and say, hey, listen, like I've noticed this passion of yours or I've noticed this gift of yours. I just want to encourage that and edify that. So I think that's a good word to anyone listening who has found the work that they could do most exceptionally well for the glory of God and the good of others. Look around you and other People who haven't figured that out and draw out those things in them, call out those things in them and if you haven't found that thing, maybe go around and ask the question. Right. If work is primarily means of serving others, sure, ask some introspective questions. But we should probably seek to discern that calling in community, ideally Christian community, where other people can draw that out as well. Amen.

Oh, absolutely. You know, I think we're sometimes too self absorbed, I mean, including myself. But I'm trying to be very intentional and to catch others in, in something they do well and even excel and to, as you mentioned, to compliment them on it. And sometimes maybe they don't even realize that, you know, I mean, I was, I was already just finished my Master of Divinity in seminary and, and I still didn't realize that maybe he had a special gift in scholarship and writing. And somebody told me that, have you ever considered, you know, getting a PhD and becoming a Bible teacher? And I was thinking, really, you think I would be good at that? You know, I didn't necessarily see myself as that. And it took somebody else seeing that in me and telling me, caring enough, right. To telling me that launched me on that path.

Same is true for me as a writer and a content creator. Like I think you'd be hard pressed to find. Somebody says that, yeah, I found the thing that God's clearly created me to do. And there hasn't been that voice in their life speaking that into them at some point in the journey. Right. That's a really, really good place to land this plane. As an encouragement to our listeners to call out the excellence and others so that they could step in with confidence to focus on the work God has given them to do. Hey, Dr. Kassenberger. We wrap up every episode with, with the same three questions. Number one, I'm curious which books on the whole you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others? You mentioned addicted to mediocrity. Are there any other? Like if you log into Amazon, you look at your purchase history, are there books you order over and over and over again to give to other people?

Well, that's a great question. I love books and I love to recommend them, give them to others and so forth. So yeah. How much time do you have?

I got all the time in the world.

Certainly. I often recommend, recommend good study Bibles like the ESV Study Bible and others, just because those are such great kind of one volume works. Obviously now, you know, if you don't want to carry it around, you can have it on your smartphone or on your computer. I read a book called date your wife the other day, and the author, I forget his last name now, but I mean, he was talking about the fact that most of us husbands at some point kick into some sort of maintenance mode, not marriage. And it was kind of a kick in the rear end. He said, hey, you know, if you're a husband, you can do, and you need to do better than this, you know. And that was very refreshing to read, of course. Also like probably all of us, like Dan Ortland's recent book, gentle and Lowly. I've given that to both of my sons. I think he's doing a great job to help us, you know, get to know the heart of Jesus better. And, you know, finally, I. I sometimes recommend some of the books that my wife or myself have written. My wife is a brand new book, Sanctification is set apart and growing Christ that we've given to quite a few people. It's a great read. It's short, it's in crossway studies in biblical theology, and I think such an important subject. I think it can truly be life transforming for us to learn more about how the Spirit is, you know, transforming us if we are, you know, yielding to his control in our lives. So those would be just a few books. And I mentioned our parenting books, Equipping for Life and Parenting Essentials. We've given that to a lot of young couples as they either prepare for marriage or, you know, as they're thinking about having children or even as they have young children. So those would be just a few books that I often give to people.

I love it. Well, I give out your excellence book a lot, so it's one of the ones I keep coming Back to. Hey, Dr. Kassenberger, who would you like to hear in this podcast talking about how the gospel should influence the work that mere Christians do in the world? It can be a theologian like yourself to go deep on a topic like excellence or. Or can be a practitioner who's at work out in the world.

Right. Well, the one person that comes to mind is somebody I've been friends with for a long time. Name is Robert Yarborough. Bob Yarborough, who's a lumberjack by background, but he is a longtime teacher. He's now at Covenant Seminary in St. Louis, Missouri. He's American, but he knows German better than many native speakers. And one thing that really strikes me, you know, he is a very committed to helping Christians, you know, especially underground Christians in countries where Christians are heavily persecuted. He travels to South Sudan and Romania, I think every year, almost every year regularly to teach underground pastors there. And so he's been just an incredible example to me. So he would be, I'm sure, a great person.

That he was a lumberjack. That's amazing. That's so great. I don't think we've ever had a former or current lumberjack on the podcast, but that would be awesome. It's funny, we mentioned these vocations from time to time. Like, I don't know, a few months ago I was like, I really want a janitor on the podcast. And somebody reached out and we recorded this episode and it was amazing. I don't know if it will have been released by the time this episode airs. I love just throwing out the world. Hey, listen, who knows a lumberjack? Send them our way. Hey, Dr. Kassenberger, we're talking to this global audience of mere Christians who are doing a lot of different things vocationally. I'm sure there's a lumberjack out there. We know there's janitors. We know there are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. What they share is a desire to glorify the Lord in all that they do at work. What's one thing you want to say to them before we sign off?

Well, I recently wrote a, you know, a massive thousand page book with a colleague of mine in Australia, Greg Goswell. He's called Biblical Theology. And, and so I did a lot of thinking. What is the heart part of the biblical narrative? What's the, you know, the big picture? What's the story of the Bible all about? And, and I landed on the love of God as kind of the heart of it all, you know, and I obviously, John 3:16, we all know, summarize it so perfectly. God for God to love the world. But, but even when you look at Jesus, he was asked, what's the greatest commandment? And again he said he's to love God with other hearts, mind, strength and soul and to love our neighbors, ourselves. And so I think the one thing that I certainly recommend committed myself to is that that is what I want my life to be all about. You know, to love God with all my heart and to love others as I love myself. And so maybe I could leave that thought with your listeners and if they want more, they can go to my website, googlefoundations.org where they can find a lot of resources on that and many other topics.

I love it. Dr. Kassenberger, I want to commend you for the excellent Dare I say exceptional work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others for helping us just free ourselves from the addiction to mediocrity. Catch a vision for excellent work, the excellent work of God's hands and the call to respond, as Paul says in Ephesians 5:1, by imitating his character as his beloved children. Friends, I love all of Dr. Kostenberger's work, but especially this short book on excellence. I would strongly recommend it to you. Dr. Kostenberger. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Hey, if you know a lumberjack or anyone else you want to hear on the Mere Christians podcast, let me know@jordanraynor.com contact hey, thank you guys so much for tuning into the Mere Christians Podcast this week. I'll see you next time. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylie Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5Mere Christians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.