Dr. Gisela Kreglinger (Vintner + Theologian)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5meerchristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as assembly line workers, health educators and lab techs. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend, the brilliant Dr. Gisela Kreglinger. She's a wine expert and theologian and one of my absolute favorite, favorite thinkers. We have her back on the show to talk about why the wine industry is in great trouble and why Christians should be the ones to help. We talked about how you and I could show everyday hospitality to those that we work with and how the gospel can shape not just our own work, but also the work of others that we consume. Do not miss this terrific episode with my friend, Dr. Gisela Kruglinger. Doctor Kruglinger, welcome back to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

It is so great to be back with you, Jordan. I am so excited about your work. It is so important and I feel like I've been huddled in my little corner trying to say we need to recover a marketplace theology. And here you are, you're doing it. I'm excited to be on your podcast again.

So I love you so much. So a lot of it's most of the times when I hop on, before we start, before we click record, the conversation's like typical small talk talk in technical details. Like the first thing Giselle Kreglinger says when she comes on, she goes, jordan, this conversation, I'm so grateful to have you as a conversation partner because the wine industry is in trouble. I'm like, this is such a deep thinker. All right, let's start here. I scrapped my entire plan for the beginning of the episode. Gisela, tell us why the wine industry is in trouble. And then of course we'll circle back to why Christians should be rushing into industries like this because they are in trouble. But let's start with the problem because that was surprising to me. The wine world is in trouble. I didn't know what you meant. Set the table for us, if you will.

Well, there are, I think, two major aspects that I want to talk about and I've addressed one of them repeatedly in my books. But because Christians have not claimed wine as a gift from God and spoken into our culture to understand this gift, the secular world has defined the meaning of wine for us and what they've done, they have sort of developed this sort of guild of expertise, the wine sommeliers and the masters of wine. And the way they approach wine is from is a very top down approach. They are the experts and we are the ignorant people and have to learn from them. The way you talk about wine and the way it's presented, it feels very and is very elitist. It's very intimidating. It just seems too complicated. And I didn't grow up that way. I grew up in a winery and wine was just part of life. Sometimes we talked about the wine and, you know, the grape variety and all of that, but most of the time we shared the wine and we just let it do its beautiful thing. It brought so much joy to us and shaped our conversations and our feasting. But when you look around in today's world, for the last 60 years, let's say 60 years, the secular world has defined it for us and it's become very elitist and top down. And so a lot of people, especially young people, feel like this is not for me, this is too complicated. I don't know what's going on and I don't have the time or the energy. I don't want to engage with that. So there are people that should really be brought to the table to the convivial feast that gives us a taste of the kingdom of heaven. They're turning away from it. So that's really, really very sad because they don't understand what a gift it is and that it's for. It should be available in price ranges for everyone. And you don't have to do all that sophisticated wine talk to enjoy wine. But the other part is that the medical research has really reevaluated the supposed health benefits of wine, and they are now saying there are no health benefits whatsoever. And even some neuroscientists are talking about just the detrimental effects of alcohol. More widely speaking, of course, I'm always wondering, what sort of alcohol are we talking about? And then within the alcohol rem, even the wine realm, are we talking about organic wine or talking about industrially produced wine? Anyhow, and then all that talk is focused on the physiological. But we know as Christians, we are more than our physical bodies. There is the emotional in the spiritual and the cultural realm. And, you know, who can measure the health benefits of joy? Who can measure the health benefits of beauty? Because this is a gift and we are to bring heaven down to earth for our celebrations.

Oh, man, it's so beautiful. And a couple of things in response. Number one, I'm one of those young people, although I think I can start to question just how young I am. I just turned 38, but I am one of those young people who doesn't drink wine. I love craft beer. But part of the reason why I never got into wine is. It did feel so pretentious. I remember watching this Netflix documentary on the somiles called Psalm and I was like, this sounds terrible. I don't have this much time. It's how I feel being a Taylor Swift fan sometimes, and I am a Taylor Swift fan. I don't have time to be a good Taylor Swift fan. Like all the crazies, right? That's how I feel about wine. And when you look at the Gospels, gosh, this is just not the picture of wine. So I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment there. But I also think it's interesting what you said about the health benefits and how the world measures health benefits versus how we do. And I'm curious. You know, you mentioned. I love what you said. Who can measure the health benefits of joy and beauty? It seems to me that Christians disengaging from the world of wine seems to coincide with this moment in time where Christians have prioritized the functionality and utilitarian above everything else. Beauty does not have intrinsic value anymore. Joy and play doesn't have intrinsic value. All that matters is getting stuff done. Is that your read of kind of where we're at in church history?

Yes. I certainly think in the west there is just this incredible push towards productivity. We live in a very competitive society. You know, we want to go ahead with our jobs. And this is what's emphasized. This is what you get praised for. And this whole idea of play is very difficult, you know, And I think for the Christian faith and Christian spirituality, it's very focused on the moral. Obviously, the moral is very important, but we also have to realize that the way we live a moral life, I think, is the way we discover that we are children of God, that we are part of God's kingdom, where we are his beloved children set free from the burdens of sin. And I think that out of that playfulness, out of this deep faith in a benevolent Father God, is that we then get to share our faith and live these not just moral lives, but these beautiful kingdom lives. And I think wine draws us into the sense of joy and celebration. At the end of the day, when you let go of all the things that he had to do, there has to be this moment where we say, it's enough and let's gather together and enjoy each other and enjoy God and celebrate together.

That's so good. All right, we're going to circle back to this conversation of reclaiming the wine industry, what that means in practice, and then how our listeners can reclaim their own industries, even if they're outside of wine and hospitality. But first, I think we got to establish some common ground with our listeners, Gisela, because I know a lot of Christians who see wine as trivial. Honestly. See, any created thing is trivial. It's the old adage that I hear pastors say all the time. You know, the only two things that last for eternity are God's word and people. Now, you and I know that's not what scripture says at all. In fact, scripture says that wine will be a part of our life on the new earth, and not just metaphorically, but literally part of the eternal kingdom of God. Can you give a summary of the biblical evidence for that idea?

So you mean the idea of that creation is a gift from God?

Yeah. And is eternal?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the creation account is just the most beautiful and fundamental account that we have for helping us understand the physical world. The world that God created is spiritual. It is spiritual through and through. And so this idea that there is the material and then there's the spiritual is not really a Christian idea, you know, And I think even last a couple Sundays ago, I heard a sermon about this idea. You know, the flesh and the spirit. And the preacher interpreted flesh as the physical and then the spirit, you know, the non physical. And I thought, no, no, we've. That's not a right interpretation of flesh.

That's Plato, not Jesus.

It's what's broken. It's what needs to be redeemed. And so I think the creation account is very, very important. And then, of course, Psalm 104 is like another creation account that sort of emphasizes that. But throughout the Bible, this theme of the land that God gave us, land that we can grow things in, through growing and through agriculture, we commune with God. And we know that God is benevolent because of what he gives us through the earth. But even with Jesus, you know, in the Gospel of John, it says in the beginning was the Word, and the Word with God, and through him all things came into being. Through Christ, all things came into being. And then when you look at John's gospel and for example, the wedding feast of Cana, where he turns water into wine, he again, he affirms the goodness of creation in the. The goodness of win and the goodness of celebration. You know, even the incarnation itself, that God became a human being. And tabernacled with us is this affirmation that God comes into his own, what he has created and that he wants to redeem all things. You can't really get away from it. In the Bible, if you really learn to read the Bible sort of as a story rather than picking out individual Bible versus detached from the context. So I think that's just one of the beautiful things about the Bible that it celebrates creation as a gift from God in that really all things created. The first purpose of creation of the trees, of the birds and of humans is to praise and worship God.

It's really beautiful. Yeah. When you take, you know, bird's eye view of scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. Unlike most major religions, the God of the Bible celebrates the created material world because it testifies to his glory. Psalm 19. Did the stars declare the glory of God? Jesus pointed to bread and wine, works of human hands, to explain what he is like. In other words, to glorify himself, to bring glory to the Father. Right. All of these things testify to that. And if all those things are eternal. Right. Jesus said, I'm not going to drink for the cup of this, this vine until the resurrection. Right. Then man, our work with that earth, that earth and this material world in the present must matter to him. Right?

Yes. And, you know, to come back to sort of the. The language of the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper, it used to go like this fruit of the vine, meaning a gift from God and work of human hands. It becomes our spiritual drink. So it's really, the emphasis was always on this collaboration. God gives us the vine and the grapes, and then we, in our work, whether that's as a vintner or a baker or a mechanic or a teacher, we take what God gives us in this divine human collaboration, then God blesses, and then we give it back to the world to be nourished. So we are really collaborators with God and, and that is such a beautiful gift that we get to have meaningful work and work with God and then give it to the world so the world can be fed and taught and the world can enjoy music and be who God has called us to be.

It's really, really good. I love that so much. And part of that work that God has in store for us is redeeming and reclaiming every square inch of creation. Jesus is not just king of my soul and the quote unquote, spiritual realm. He is King of heaven and earth. He's king of every square inch of creation. To riff on Kuiper, right? And so let's talk about redeeming and reclaiming the gift of wine. You said before the wine industry is in trouble before we start recording. You're like, Jordan, we need Christians rushing into this industry. So I'd love for you to talk about what does that look like practically? Why should Christians be in the wine industry specifically? And what might it look like to reclaim that territory under Jesus's sovereign kingship?

So let me tell you a little story about that. Weeks ago, I was in Napa, and Harper Christian Resources is doing a video series called Wine in the Word. And we were filming that in Napa. It's based on, you know, my new book, Cup Overflowing. But right after that, I met up, and it was an incredible way that God led us together with a South African vintner who is now the head vintner of a big, big wine organization. They have wineries all over the world. And she is a deep, deep Christian. So she prays over the vineyards, she prays over the wine. But she also is in a moment of crisis because they can no longer talk about that. Wine is healthy. People are tired of all these tasting notes. And so I've had these wonderful conversations with this winemaker and teaching her how to talk about wine in a more holistic way. And she's in a very secular context, so she can't always talk about theology and spirituality. And I said, miranda, just talk about culture. Replace the word spirituality with culture, because faith and religion is part of culture. And so she's learning a whole new way of talking about wine. And she can draw on Scripture. Wine brings joy. I mean, we all need joy. So let's talk about wine and joy in the different occasions where we can have a wine. So she is reimagining how she is the main spokesperson for the company is speaking about wine and teaching her colleagues in her company to talk about wine in a very different way that's much more holistic. That talks about culture, that talks about spirituality, perhaps, or mindfulness. I mean, for us who work in the secular world, you have to sort of adjust your lingo. You know, you can't just talk about faith in a very straightforward manner. But for this is one example of where I am teaching someone to talk about wine. She's in a very, very important role in a big company, how to talk about wine differently. And that makes all the difference. So that's one example that we teach people to talk about wine the way the Bible talks about wine. Psalm 104, God gave wine to gladden the hearts of humanity. Now that's good news. And whether you are Christian or not, everyone loves that idea.

That's really good. I love this idea. It's talking about the creational goodness of a particular industry, of a particular line of work using a biblical worldview without using biblical language. Right. And that's a really practical way to redeem that particular craft. That's what you're saying, Giselle, right?

Yes. It's to make lats the heart of humanity so you can be quoting scripture to, you know, non Christians and help them get familiar with the world of the Bible and the goodness of the biblical worldview and ultimately the goodness of God that he's benevolent. And I think so many people who are post Christian in the west actually don't believe or have not grown up with an understanding that God is benevolent and forgiving and to help people understand how benevolent and forgiving God is. And it's just an important part of what we are called to do as missionaries in the secular world.

Yeah. I also don't think that many non Christians have the perspective that Christians are for the world and the flourishing of this world. I think the perspective is largely Christians have kind of exited this world and isolated in their sub Christian cultural, you know, subcultural bubbles and are waiting to exit this world for another one. But that's not true. Like, we are here to be a faithful presence. Right. Pointing people to God's love and care and benevolence over them as human beings, but also for all of the gifts that those people enjoy. Right?

Absolutely. And I think that's so important. I think we as Christian can sort of model how to savor and enjoy this world. Simon Bale once said French sort of mystic attention in its highest form is prayer. If we really pay attention to something like the gift of wine and savor it, it's a form of prayer and gratitude and sort of to model that. Because in sort of the consumerist society that we are in, we are not taught to really savor things. We are taught to get things and discard them, get them, discard them, because that's how we keep the engine going. But to really pause and savor something beautiful and to linger with it, it's really a spiritual practice. And so we can talk about mindfulness and bring that whole idea through a very secular term and then reintroduce people to the gospel. So there's so many ways, and I feel like the Spirit, whatever profession you're in, you want to reach into your secular profession. The Spirit will give you the wisdom in the right language to reintroduce the gospel without a lot of the baggage that people feel like they have received. And so we actually are in the work of freeing the gospel from a lot of the baggage that we have added to it into rediscovered a much more full bodied spirituality.

That's really good. Freeing the gospel from the baggage. Yeah, I think it's really good. I think part of the way we do that is modeling how we enjoy this world and how we enjoy the work with the world. I think that's one way that we can find a lot of common ground with believers. I mean, listen, with non believers, Sorry, non believers love their work to idolatrous ends. Right. But they love their work. And when we can show up in the work and exude a lot of that same joy and say, yes, this is a good gift, this job is a good thing, but not cross over into the territory of idolatry, I think that'll preach, right?

Yes. But it's not just non Christians who are addicted to work, it's Christians as well, 100%. And to find the right balance in a culture that pushes us towards being addicted to work. And there's a younger generation that might, they want to have more of a life work balance, which I think is really, really good. But again, I think we have to realize that this culture is not good about true play. We are, you know, in this consumerist world. We are entertained, we are to consume, you know, Netflix series and we are consume an iced drink from Starbucks, you know, so that the corporate world can make money. But to really find space to play, to be children of God and to not feel like there's an agenda of we have to consume and purchase things, but just to be together and to celebrate life together and to get to know one another deeply. I was just in Nashville and there was a dinner organized. You know, I lead wine pilgrimages once a year. And so there were some former wine pilgrims and then there are some new wine pilgrims that are coming next year in the couple that went last year. They are sort of close to retirement. And one of the big, big themes of the wine pilgrimage is hospitality. And so as they are sort of coming to the end of their careers, envisioning their vocation in the world, they think about hospitality and they have a great place for that and wanting to continue to nurture the relationships that they have built over their professional life, but then draw people to the table, into conversation, to good food, to good wine, to knowing people and embracing them for who they are rather than what they can do for us. Or it just. There's always sort of strings attached to what we do, I feel. And so to develop and nurture relationships not with strings attached just for the pure joy of having another Amazing creature of God that we get to love, that we get to listen to, that we get to feed, and that we get to enjoy some wine with and to celebrate life. Just the pure bliss of the gift of life. That can be such a powerful way to love people into the kingdom.

Oh man, so good. Okay, what does that look like practically? Let's imagine a listener who's very different work than you. Our imaginary listener works as a programmer at a tech startup in Austin, Texas. She's single, she's got a small apartment in downtown Austin. Talk to her. What does hospitality look like for her amongst her co workers? What can she be doing to show that kind of hospitality that makes the kingdom truly winsome to her lost co workers?

There are many ways. Usually people work on a team and develop things together and there's a lot of stress on these people. So I think how you act and work with function within that stress, I think first of all, if you're in a very stressful job, I highly, highly recommend that you find something like a spiritual director or a spiritual friend that can help you maneuver the dynamics. Because the dynamics can often be difficult and you are not meant to do this by yourself. So I encourage you to have a spiritual friend, a prayer partner, spiritual director or a therapist, whatever it is, someone, a community that can prop you up and help you how to maneuver often very difficult, difficult situations where there isn't the right and wrong. But you want to be faithful with your Christian faith. So that's one thing. Don't do it by yourself. Try to find some support so that people can pray with you and discern things. Pray in the morning and ask God to show you how to be present, to invite the Holy Spirit into your work. And then be a gatherer, Gather people, maybe outside of work for a little bite to eat. You know, take some initiative and say to one co worker or another or a couple, hey, let's I have a little patio that we can sit on and maybe have some crackers and cheese and a glass of wine after work at home. And just for conversation, for getting to know them, for picking up some of the threads and trying to develop more of a relationship so that you can get to know the people that you then find yourself in very stressful situations with. I think that can really be very helpful. And these are two things that I do both in my work. I have support. I have a support system that helps me maneuver the challenges and then this prayerful asking the spirit to be with you and then to be proactive in reaching out in reaching out, in getting to know people beyond the workspace to develop a relational basis. So then when the challenging situations come, you have more of a basis in maneuvering the difficulties.

That's right. That's so, so, so good. Gisela, we talk so much on this podcast, honestly, almost exclusively about how the gospel should influence our work, the work that our listeners are doing. But one of the things I loved maybe most in Cup Overflow in your new book is you're posing some really big questions about how the gospel should influence us as consumers of other people's work. And I want to ask you about what this might look like as it pertains to wine with the hopes of finding maybe some broader principles to apply to the consumption of any work. Right. So in the conclusion of your book, you wrote. Let me pull this up. Here it is. Quote, what if we consumed less but learned to invest our resources in those foods and wines that bring healing not only to us and our barren soils, but also to those who labor so hard to produce them? End quote. So I love that question. I want you to answer that. What would that look like, to consume wine and food in that way?

Yeah, let's talk about CAFOs, commercial animal feeding operations, where our animals are reared and fed and live in horrendous circumstances. And then let's think about the people that work there, minimum wage people. They live in and work in very, very hard circumstances. Is this something that we really want to support? I found through my research. My husband had cancer and we changed our diet and our lifestyle to help him heal. And I found this Christian family, and they are our farmers, and they live outside of Coleman, and they come maybe once every two weeks and they bring their frozen meats and eggs. And the cows have been reared on pastures, they're grass fed. They have a very dignified life, and they die in a very dignified way. And we support them, we get our meat from them, and we know that they love what they do. It's very hard work for them to be farmers. And they don't have a marketing team, so I'm part of their marketing team now. But think about when you go to the supermarket and you buy food, where it was produced and who are the people that are producing it, and what sort of conditions do they work in. And of course, that shifts our priorities. Obviously, that kind of meat is more expensive. But do we have to eat so much meat? Can we eat less meat? Can we buy meat of higher quality that is produced by farmers who really care for the Animals care for the soil and care for your health. And that's just one example, the whole meat industry. But even with wine, people go and want to find really cheap wine. Now sometimes, you know, there's a supermarket like Trader Joe's and they will have a fairly high quality wine from Sicily at a really cheap price. Now Sicily is known for using refugee workers underpaying them. They live in awful sort of circumstances. Do we really want to support that kind of an industry? You know, I have a wine shop in town and they only sell organic and biodynamic wines. Their wines are a bit more expensive, but they still have good wines in the sort of twenty to thirty dollar bracket. In fact, they often offer a pack of five bottles of wine for $100. So they are for those of us who don't have a big budget. But they make sure that the wines that they buy are clean. You know, think about all the additives, the pesticides and herbicides found in mass produced wines. You don't want that for your own health, but you also don't want that for the soil. So I found this little wine shop that I now support and that just can go with anything that you produce. For example, clothing, the clothing industry. Think about the children and the slave workers involved in making clothes. And so I try to not buy that much new clothes. And when I buy it, I try to either buy it from a company that has ethical standards or if I can't afford that, you know, some of them are expensive, I buy them used. That way you're not contributing to just the whole pile of used clothes that have a lot of historical synthetic in them that are not biodegradable, we don't know what to do with. So really in all spheres of daily life where you sort of shop and consume, become mindful of it, or for example, coffee try to buy fair trade organic coffee. I don't go out and buy coffee on the go. It's so expensive to buy, you know, a six dollar cup of coffee. But I do buy coffee that's grown by small producers that are well paid and that's organic. And then have a nice cup of coffee at home. And through that, that's an act of prayer for me. I'm supporting and giving dignity to coffee farmers that are actually getting something for their coffee.

I love this conversation. I love how others focused. It is right, not just how does the gospel influence my work, but how does the gospel help me look to the work of those whose products I'm consuming and think about those purchases Differently, right? I've heard stories of ordinary story recently of a. Of a man who spent 40 years in a poultry. Huge production plant, very dehumanizing work. And we ought to be thinking about that in our consumption habits. But, man, that feels overwhelming. Like, for me, as a busy dad of young children, I'm like, giselle, I don't have time to Google every product before I purchase it. Are there tools that you use? Are there apps, are there websites, whatever, that have helped you think more redemptively about how you consume the work of others?

Well, I think start small. Start small. For example, start with your meat or go to a farmer's market. Go to a farmer's market. Look for a farmer's market, and then start small. And for me, going to the farmer's market on Saturday is my weekly pilgrimage. There are so many other things that I could do. Jordan, grab your children and say, on Saturdays, we're going on a pilgrimage. We're going to the promised land of responsible agriculture. And you develop relationships with a couple farmers, and they are going to be your friends. You're going to pray for them. You're going to have fun with your children. It's a family event, and you teach your children about healthy food and farmers who work so hard for us, start small and then build from there. And so once you have a pattern like that, I mean, you need to play. For me, going to the farmer's market is play. Now, a friend of mine, her husband had cancer. It's come back, and she's like, I'm going to the farmer's market with you next Saturday. I'm like, okay. Now the throng to the New Jerusalem, the farmer's market is becoming bigger. People are wanting to join because they're ill. So I think just this one, you know, you don't have to go every week or every other week, and you don't have to spend. I used to have $10 that I could spend at the farmer's market because I was poor, I was a student, I didn't have a lot of money. Now I buy all of my produce at the farmer's market. I buy all our meats from that organic farmer and all of our eggs because we can afford it, but also because my. My husband had cancer. And we just decide. We invest in that. As I said, we don't go out to eat a lot. We don't get drinks on the go. We do that all at home. But start small and do something that connects you to your community. The farmer's market Is ideal.

It's really good. I wasn't gonna bring this up, but you mentioned a couple times. So I gotta ask about play, right? Play's hard for me, I think, because for me, my work is play. Both days feels like play. But talk about the journey you've gone on on the issue of play and the value you see in it intrinsically. But also I'm interested in the value of. Can you connect the dots between. Oh man. Play in this area has clearly been used by God to make me stronger in this other area where I'm serving people primarily through my work. Is there connection there?

Well, I think for me play, to really play, I have to be rested. When I'm exhausted, I can't play. And for a lot of us, we are exhausted and then the kind of relaxation we do is quite passive. Like we stream something and watch something. And so for me, really, Abraham Heschel's book On the Sabbath was instrumental in teaching me to take the Sabbath, the Sunday rest seriously. To worship and to rest and then also to play. And so I think that for me was an important way to. I mean, my family sort of took that seriously. But the winery was always open on Sunday morning, so our play only started. And not for my mom because she always made this big lunch meal. But from lunchtime on we would rest and play. We go for a walk. And so I really encourage people to take Sunday worship and rest seriously. Don't shop, worship God and then do something. If you want to take a nap, go for a walk, play. I've just taken up playing tennis and I'm really enjoying that. It takes quite a lot of time, which I used to be very. I love exercising, but I used to try to do the kind of exercise that you can fit into a tight schedule. And now I'm doing something that brings me out more with people because I do a lot of my work by myself. It's the kind of sort of exercise that I really, really enjoy playing on a team. But it was sort of. I had to scale back my expectations of what I can done. I'm also very driven. I come from a family of hard workers. So I think to do something that's not productive, but as an outworking of learning to be a child of God, I don't need to save the world. You know, I feel like I'm one of the few people in the wine world speaking in this way. So I need to do all of this work. And I'm like, well, no, actually there's some other people that are doing their work. And you need to let God be God. And you need to learn to worship and rest and then realize we're just always and ever children of God. God can do without our work. He really can. And it's really important to enter into that rest that we have in God and then to listen to. Listen to what God wants you to do.

Yeah. I think you can know intellectually that you're a child of God, but you can't know it experientially until you spend time doing things that are not on your have to do list. Right. When you spend time doing things on my get to do list, which for Sabbath for my family, that is it. It is a day full of get to nothing on the have to. And you're right, like, I've never really defined that as play necessarily. But yeah, I guess it is play. Like it is a day filled with things that I can just enjoy God's good gifts. And whether that's worship with his people or a great craft beer, whatever. Maybe now a bottle of wine that my friend Gisela recommends. But doing so in a way to remind myself that I am loved and valued when I'm not being productive. Right.

Yeah.

And that's what's going on subconsciously as I'm enjoying those good gifts.

Yeah. Again, we live in a culture that pushes us to protect productivity. We are only valued when we are productive or when we have a certain house or we have a certain car, we have a certain lifestyle. But as Christians, and this is so hard to really reclaim that we are God's beloved children no matter what. And that is something to cultivate in the midst of an intense career. It's very, very hard. It's very countercultural. So that's why I think the Sunday rest, the Sabbath rest, is such a great rhythm to join in because that's what the church has always done. It has rested and reminded us who we are. We are not just to be productive or be sort of a certain member of society. Above all, our identity is to be part of the body of Christ, to receive the life of God, and to be set free to be God's children. And only when we deeply realize that, that we're God's beloved children can we then be more receptive to really do what God calls us to rather than what we think we need to do, or what our parents think we need to do, or our culture or our spouses. This is the sort of heart balance and the heart dance that we always have to do. It's just continually leaning into God. George MacDonald in one of his Kurdi books has this lovely, lovely image of having your finger an invisible thread all the time and to follow it wherever it takes you. And that is the daily practice. But it's especially when we sort of rest and we learn to play, you know, and I think we even, you know, what does it mean to play? To me, it's not just about enjoying things that I do, though. That's true. It's about really rediscovering what it means to be a child. We will never retire from being children of God. In fact, as we get older and become more frail, we become like children again.

Yeah, yeah. We never grow out of being a child of God. It's really good. Gisela, I could listen to you speak for hours, but unfortunately we got to wrap up. So there's four questions I try to ask every guest of the show before we close this out. Number one, which job would you love for God to give you on the new earth?

Well, as all creation is meant to glorify God continually, my job would be be a dancer to join into the throng of dancing and glorifying and celebrating God's goodness.

That's a great answer. I love that so much. Giselle, if we opened up your Amazon order history or wherever you buy your books, which book would you see over and over and over again that you've purchased to give away to friends?

I do try to support our local bookshop, but one of the books that I love, and we're actually leading a church Bible study on it, is by Alexander Schmemann for the Life of the World. And if you have not read this, he just so affirms all that you do. He says that the world is an all embracing banqueting table. It is through the world that we commune with God. So if you have not read for the Life of the World by Alexander Schmeemann, that's a great one. It's not an easy one and he's from the Orthodox tradition, but it's a powerful, powerful book that I've used in my work. And the other one is by William Kavanaugh, a Catholic theologian called Being Consumed. And then the subtitle has something to do with Christian desire. I think it's economics and Christian desire. But it really. He argues that the main spirituality that we all live in is the spirituality of consumerism. And then Christianity for us Christians is often sort of lived under the umbrella of consumerism. And so I think Kavanaugh wants to call us out under that umbrella and understand the primacy of our Christian faith and then to consume redemptively. We talked about that.

That sounds amazing. That sounds amazing. All right, Dr. Craig Winter, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith influences the work they do in the world?

That's a good question. Obviously, I have a wine person.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I want to talk to your friend from South Africa.

Yes, I think Marinda Kruger. She's originally from South Africa, but she's the head winemaker and director in Napa right now. I think she would be a really, really great person. I actually would love for my husband to be on this podcast.

Yes. What does your husband do for work?

He's a dentist.

Oh, I love this.

And he runs his dental practice like a little church.

Oh, my gosh, I love this. I'd love to have him on invitation extended.

But he understands so much his vocation as a dentist to care for people in the best possible way. He saves every tooth that he can. The way he treats his patients and the philosophy that he has is just so moving and powerful. And, you know, I don't know how he learned that, because, I mean, I don't know about you, but sometimes not all dentists are the same. And then some dentists, you wonder, was that really necessary to do this? And to have someone who is honest and ethical and who takes time and who treats you in a holistic way is something that's very rare in the medical field these days. And my husband still does that. And he's trying someone. He's looking for someone to take over his practice, and it's really hard.

Oh, yeah. I have a friend who's on the opposite side of that marketplace right now, and it's really hard on him, too. So I totally get that. I'd love to talk to your husband on the show. All right, Dr. Kregman, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians who do a lot of different things vocationally. I know for a fact we have some vintners in the audience, but we've also got mechanics and entrepreneurs and baristas. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off under the broad umbrella of how this gospel of the kingdom should influence the work they do Monday through Friday, Saturday, whatever it is?

To be a faithful Christian in our world, in our secular world, is very challenging. And I would like to tell them, don't do this by yourself. Walk this journey with others. Look for people that you can pray with and support one another and listen together for the Spirit to give you the wisdom and the vision that God has for you and your work in the marketplace.

It's really good. That's really good. Giselle, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do. I think I've read all your books now. They're extraordinary. Thank you for the reminder of the sacredness of creation and our work with creation and for just helping us think a little bit bigger about what it looks like to reclaim one's industry, one's craft for the glory of God and reclaim our consumption of other people's works. Guys, Gisela's new book is Cup Overflowing. She also does these wine pilgrimages, which if I don't do on this Earth, Earth man, I really hope I get to do on the new Earth. Seriously, I can't wait to go on one of these trips one day. Dr. Kruglager, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

Absolutely. It was a delight to be with you and be in conversation. I'm very encouraged.

Oh my word. I love talking with Dr. Craig linger every time I get a chance. Guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you did, do me a favor and go leave a review of the podcast wherever you're listening. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form at 5merechristians.com. Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.