Dr. Gisela Kreglinger (Wine Expert & Theologian)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God, for the good of others, for the good of our culture at large. Each week I'm hosting a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocations. We're talking about their path to mastery, their their daily habits and routines, and how their faith influences their work. You guys are in for a real treat of an episode today. I'm talking with Dr. Gisela Kreglinger, the world class theologian who also is an expert on wine, given her experience growing up on a family owned winery in Germany that's been in her family since the early 19th century. Gisela is the author of a book titled the Soul of Wine, which is a terrific read. I asked her to join me on the podcast to talk a little bit about the book, but really talk more about her passion for, in her words, reclaiming food and wine as spiritual gifts. We also talked about what Jesus first miracle, of course, turning water into wine. What does that mean for our work today? The work that you and I do every day, creating and shaping culture. And finally, we talked about why relinquishing control is essential to mastering the art of winemaking, but is really essential to mastering any vocational discipline. So without further ado, please enjoy this terrific conversation with Dr. Gisela Kreglinger. Gisela, thank you so much for joining me. And you're calling in from Germany, right?

Yes, I am.

Are you at the family winery right now?

Right now I am, yeah. We just had a wine tasting the other day sampling the wines 2019 and they have turned out to be really beautiful.

What's your favorite one?

Well, my favorite wine from the wine region in Franconia is the Sylvana. It's a very dry and crisp and savory wine, which a lot of acidity. It's quite a characterful wine that goes really well with roasts and fish and all sorts of lovely dishes.

I love a good crisp wine. That's great. So my wife and I were in Sonoma about a year ago. We try to get out there every Few years. So I'm curious if you've. I mean, you are like the wine expert here, right? So do you have a favorite spot to visit in Northern California? Favorite winery spot?

I think Sonoma is a fascinating region. It's very complex in terms of its geology and also its climate because you have the wineries that are very close to the coast and. And then you have wineries that are more inland. So when I went, I stayed in Helzberg and that's a really great place from which to then explore the wineries. I think there are many wonderful wineries that you can explore there. So I'm not sure if I have a favorite, but I definitely think that's a lovely, lovely region to visit. And I like that there are so many small family run wineries in the Sonoma area.

Yeah, it's a wonderful place. I mean, my wife and I, we're not huge wine drinkers. I drink more beer than I do wine. But we love wineries, especially in Northern California. It's just such a beautiful part of the world.

Yeah.

I gotta get out of Germany though. Go to German wine country. That is definitely on the list. That'll be fun. So tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up in the winemaking business. Like, you grew up on this family owned winery. What was your childhood like? How was your childhood different than the typical childhood growing up on a winery?

Right. I guess the main difference is that we worked a lot from a very early age. So when, when I tell people that I grew up on a winery, they often have these very romantic notions that we would be sitting around sampling wine, watching the weather go by. But if you have a family run winery, it is actually a lot of hard work. And so with children, we were four girls, we had to work and help a lot. And I remember one chore that I really did not like was when we children had to crawl into the wine vat to scrub it clean from the inside because it was wet and smelly and dark in there. But we had to crawl in there with our little brushes and then a hose with water and brush it down from the inside. And I remember saying to dad, dad, it's so cold and dark and wet inside, I want to get out. And my dad just said, scrub harder.

That's terrific. Terrific. The unglorious side of the winemaking business. Right. I'm really curious, what did a day in the life of your family look like? Like from the moment the sun came up to the moment the sun came down, what were you guys all doing kind of. What was the tick tock timeline of a day in your family?

Well, you know, I mean, by 8 o' clock everyone was out and about and doing work. And that really depended on the season of the year and on the weather. And every day was different. You know, sometime they would be out in the vineyards pruning, sometimes they would be on the winery filling up wine bottles, sometimes they would be in the cellar. So I think one of the really wonderful things about crafting wine is that no days alike and that you're always doing different things. But it's very dependent upon the weather and the season of the year. But usually it's like you'd be out by eight, you come back for lunch, discuss, you know, the rest of the day and then you continue to be out there during harvest time. You know, my f. Brother in law would be up until late at night, you know, when the harvesters had gone home, they would be in the cellar doing all sorts of work and shepherding the wines along. So it's a. It's, you know, seasonally very, very intense. And then at other season it's more, I don't want to say like a 8 to 5 job because it never is. You know, you have customers come onto the winery all the time. So yeah, it's a very happening place, a winery.

I love how authentic this conversation is. I can literally hear wine glasses clinking in the background, which is terrific. It's like you' in this world. By the way, how long has the winery been in your family?

Well, it's been in the family for many generations, but I think we started in maybe the early 19th century.

Wow.

And we even had one of our ancestors who started a wine importing business in New York, but his wife and children died and so he returned to the winery in Germany to be with his daughter. So yeah, it's been in the family for a very long time.

What a tragic story. So he was in New York around what time period importing wine?

That was in the early 20th, in the early 19th century.

Wow.

And we have letters, him writing back and forth and you know, had his wife and children not passed away, he probably would have stayed and made and we would have had a krieglinge wine importing business in New York. But you know, he came back to sickness, which is a lovely place to grow old and pass into the next realm of God's glory, I'm sure.

So as you're coming of age, you're thinking about your career. How did you get to this place in which you chose the path of the theologian as opposed to the path of the winemaker. What's your story there?

Well, I think I've always had it in me to be asking questions about God. And especially one of the questions that I've always been interested in is how involved is God in our lives? To what measure? You know, is he sort of standing off? Sometimes. And sometimes he's really involved. And how does that work in the wine? You know, so I've always asked those questions, and I've always been more of the thinker in the family. I'm not as practically oriented as the rest, and so I think it was sort of inevitable. But, of course, growing up on a winery has profoundly shaped my theology, and I really have always desired for a more holistic and embodied in creation theology to be developed.

And I want to talk more about that in a minute, but. So you mentioned in the book in the Soul of Wine that working as a theologian had a similar feel to the vocation of winemaking. How so? I'm really curious to hear you talk a little bit about that.

I think it's the Christian vocation that sees God, you know, redeeming the world in human beings and relationships in the way God tends to his creation and to human beings is very similar to how a vintner tends to his vines in the vineyard. The rhythms are very similar. And, you know, you find that both in the Old, but especially in the New Testament, and that Jesus uses agricultural language in the language of the vineyard a lot to talk about the mystery of how Christ is with us and how he shapes the Christian life in our communities.

Yeah. So you got your PhD in historical theology. You taught Christian spirituality at Samford here in the States. Tell us about the work you're doing today.

These days, I continue to write and speak. I've also started offering wine pilgrimages.

I've seen this. I'm very excited to go on one. One day.

Yes. We had our first one in June, and it was really rather beautiful. It envisions the whole idea of pilgrimage in a very different way. A lot more of an embodied way and affirming the goodness of our bodies in the earth, but also reconnecting with very important traditions that have helped shape an agrarian vision of Christian spirituality, which is what the Benedictines and the Cistercians did. And so we went to Burgundy, where the Benedictines really took off, so to speak, at Cluny. And then the Cistercians really were a reform movement within the Benedictine tradition that emphasized Manual labor and agricultural work. And I call the Cistercians the Silicon Valley of the Middle Ages in slow motion because they really developed agriculture and viticulture all throughout Europe. And it's because of their agricultural work that in the stability that it brought in terms of food provision, that provided the foundation for Western civilization to emerge. And so I wanted to take people back to that place. And they planted a lot of the really famous Grand Cruz of Burgundy in France.

That's so fascinating. So one of the things we talk a lot about on the call to mastery is how people pursue world class mastery at their craft, whether they're entrepreneurs or authors. So I'm really curious, what do world class vintners do that their less masterful counterparts don't like? What's the delta? What's the difference between being a good and a great winemaker?

I think they have a love and a passion for what they do, and they are absolutely devoted to their craftsmanship. And they work with creation. They don't overburden it, they don't force it, they don't violate it. They try to have a posture of love and work with what's been given to them. And that's really remarkable. But that's also relinquishing of control and an abandonment of yourself to what's being given, been given to you and what you can work with. So they are in a really intimate dance both with God and creation. And you have to have a lot of confidence and a lot of willingness to sort of let go and at the same time be really present.

I think there's a lot of wisdom there for anyone in any line of work of relinquishing control to the gifts and opportunities that God has put in front of us. So you've chosen to master your work as an academic, as a theologian. You've observed master winemakers. What are the parallels other than this relinquishing of control? What are the other parallels to what it takes to master winemaking and mastering the work of a theologian?

I think, you know, I don't see I very much as a theologian respond to the call that I sense within from God and to contribute to the conversation and also push new boundaries in the way we talk about theology and what we talk about. And so I think it's always sort of an openness for the new and the unexpected and to work with what you have been given. And I think I see that in Mintners too. They don't ever stop learning. There are always different conditions that they have to work with. In terms of the climate, in terms of new grape varieties in the soil. And it's always sort of diving into that dimension and listening and paying attention and then working with that context and to do it lovingly.

Yeah. So, you know, it's easy to see the eternal significance of a theologian. Right. You're helping people know God better, more accurately, more intimately. I think it's harder for some people to see the eternal meaning of the work of a winemaker or an entrepreneur or a cpa. Can you talk about the eternal significance you see, particularly in the craft of winemaking, but really in all work, all meaningful work that we do?

Yeah, I mean, particularly for wine. In the Psalms, we learn that God gave wine to bring us joy. And the cultivation of joy is a really important Christian practice. I think sometimes we do not realize how important joy is for our lives. As Christians, we should be the most joyful people in the universe, experiencing God's redemptive and loving presence in our midst and seeing how he works amongst us. And joy is both a gift and something that we cultivate. And the vintner has a very, very important role in crafting something so beautiful that it can enhance and deepen our sense of joy and experiencing that joy. When you sample something really, really beautiful and you stand in awe of the creator of the universe.

And there's a lot of parallels there to all work, I think, about the artist or the author of fiction who's not writing anything that's over evangelical, but just bringing joy to people, that is a good and God honoring thing. You mentioned this a few minutes ago. I hope you'll go a little bit deeper on it. Talk about how you think about the new heavens and the new earth and its relation to the work that we are doing today. The work of the winemaker, but the work of all of us, how are we contributing to that larger unfolding story in the redemption of all things?

I guess once eternity has been planted into your heart and into the lives of the people that you're with, you're oriented always much more towards God and yearning for the kingdom of God to come into our midst. And that happens primarily in the healing of our relationship with God, with one another, and with creation more generally speaking. So anytime we can contribute to that is sort of a deepening belief that eternity is with us in God, that eternity is not something of the future, but that has already begun in Jesus Christ and his work here on earth, on the cross, and in the life of the resurrection. And so whenever we draw on that vision and that Reality. And we contribute to that. And we contribute by bringing heaven come down to earth. We are people of eternity. And you know, if someone runs a business and they put structures into place where people feel like they are led, well, they are encouraged, they are challenged to give their best. And you have a wonderful working atmosphere. You're bringing heaven down to earth. You're bringing redemption down to earth where you develop culture of trust and encouragement rather than of control and fear. To me, that's redemption in a broken world and very, very meaningful. I mean, the atmosphere at work where you spend most of your day is so important to your well being, how you can be productive. And then when you come home to be your family and you try to love your family, you will be able to do that so much better. If you have come out of a work environment where you feel encouraged and trusted and where you are in a good team dynamic that makes a huge difference to people's lives.

That's beautifully, beautifully said. Talk about the significance to you about the fact that Jesus first public miracle was turning water into wine. So you mentioned wine being a conduit to joy. What else is going on there, in your opinion of the significance of that being his first miracle?

Well, I mean, Jesus fulfills Old Testament prophecies all the time. He is the Messiah, the anointed one that people have been waiting for. And in the prophets, they always talk about God's redemption in terms of a great feast, a wedding feast, and where wine in abundance will flow from the mountains. And Jesus first miracle of turning not just water into wine, but an abundance of water into an abundance of wine is a fulfillment of those Old Testament prophecies and longings. That God's redemption is not just about us realizing within our hearts that Jesus our Savior, but that God ushers in a great feast where he redeems a people. And it's not just redeeming a people, but it's redeeming their relationship to creation. And that wine will flow from the mountains and vintners will be able to go back and plant vines and harvest grapes and make wine. That is part of how the Old Testament prophets envision God's redemption. So when Jesus transforms water into wine, he gives us a much greater vision of God's redemption. It's not just about the individual me that is experiencing Jesus my Savior, but it's about all of creation. All of life is being redeemed, including the way we feast and including the way we celebrate and including the way we work the land.

I don't think I've ever made the connection of that miracle to the Old Testament prophecies talking about wine flowing down from the mountains. That's really fascinating. Do you think Jesus, Jewish audience at that miracle would have made that connection?

Oh, yeah. I mean, at the time of Jesus, people were longing for the Messiah to deliver them from the Roman Empire. And they knew their Bibles, they knew their Old Testament prophets, and especially the latter prophets talked a lot about this Messiah and this great eschatological wedding banquet where God would redeem his people. And an abundance of wine was always part of that vision. Oh, yes, they would have very much had that vision in their hearts. And Jesus very much plays into that and says, I am the Messiah. I am fulfilling those Old Testament prophecies. I have no doubt about that.

What would you say to the Christian? And there's lots of Christians that hold this belief that say, well, you know what? Wine's great. It's great to enjoy now, but you know what? In the end, it doesn't matter. It's all going to burn up. Wine doesn't matter. Coffee doesn't matter. What matters is saving souls. So great be a Christian winemaker, so long as you lead people to saving faith in Christ, which obviously is a good thing. But what would you say about the eternal significance of the actual work of the actual wine beyond the temporary, the here and now?

Well, the way God has created us and the way he has redeemed us is as fully embodied people placed into the Garden of Eden. And a lot of people don't know that the term Eden, the Hebrew term Eden means pleasure and delight. So the original vision that God has for humanity is that they walk in the garden with lots of fruit trees and that they live in peace with God and they enjoy the fruits of the trees and of what God has created. This is our vision of the Christian life, and this is what God wants to redeem. The idea that God saves individual souls and that it's just about my individual soul being saved is actually not a really Christian idea. It is not found in the Christian scriptures, both in, in the Old and New Testament, in Jesus turning water into wine, Jesus celebrating at a Jewish wedding, Jesus celebrating the Passover meal, Christians being baptized with water, Christians receiving the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper with bread and wine, all emphasized that our salvation is not apart from creation, but it's deeply embedded within it. And salvation encompasses all of creation. So to deny the gifts of God for the people of God is, as John Calvin says, not acceptable. We cannot deny what God has given to humanity. We need to learn to accept it with gratitude and share it. And there's great beauty and joy in that. And as the Westminster Catechism puts it so eloquently, what is the ultimate purpose of mankind? To glorify God and to enjoy him.

Forever and enjoy the good things he's given us. When you're talking, reminding me of N.T. wright's surprised by hope and how he beautifully articulates this vision of heaven breaking through. And I'm sure you've read that work, correct?

I'm not sure. I mean, I, I know Tom, you know, he's been in Saint Andrews.

There's a connection there. No, but I love this point that he makes about Jesus post resurrection. So we read this seemingly minor detail of Jesus appearing to Mary as a gardener and we kind of breeze past it. We're like, oh yeah, whatever. Jesus like, looked like the gardener. And N.T. wright, or as you referred to him, Tom. I love that you call him Tom. You know, points out, he's like, no, this is incredibly significant. The resurrection is the point at which Jesus, Saint, it is time to garden again. Time to go back to Eden to redeem all things, to redeem wine, to redeem literature, all for his glory and to enjoy these good things of the world. Anything you want to add to NT Wright's commentary on Jesus as the gardener?

Well, I think it's not just that we are, you know, receiving it. I think it's our task as Christians is to reclaim what belongs to God and wine belongs to God. He's created the world in such a way that he placed bacteria into the atmosphere that fermentation could happen. That is because God created the world in this way. So if we don't receive wine and we give it the meaning that God intended it to have, we allow the secular world to define the meaning of wine for us. And I don't think that's acceptable. It's God's gift for us and it has a very particular role in our lives. And it's important to take scripture seriously. There are nearly a thousand references to wine and wine related themes in the Bible. There's no doubt about that. Wine has a very special purpose in God's salvation. And so I'm trying to help everyone remember that and be faithful to the holy and sacred scriptures I love in the book.

I think you make this, like, really practical in your book about. We have let the secular world really define wine culture. And the church has been largely absent from that conversation. And one thing in particular you talk about in your book is this like pretentiousness of wine culture, right? Wine being seen by many as unapproachable. It makes some people feel like outcasts. What do you think is going on there spiritually that causes us to use wine in that way? And how can the church contribute in the redemption of wine culture?

Well, I think we live in highly competitive consumer cultures. This is the framework of our cultures. And so in North America in particular, wine has been emerging as a cultural force. And so it's defined within this very competitive consumer culture. It just takes on the meaning of the culture, it absorbs it. And then people, you know, the wine experts can be very helpful, but they also, you know, they spend a lot of time trying to impress other people or trying to sort of create this sort of consumer mentality that in order to really enjoy and appreciate wine, you have to do this and that and you have to spend this and that and it becomes this very, very elitist and compet thing. And I think it's important to take a step back and look at the history of civilization and the history of Christianity and see how people have talked about wine and. Or to look at, you know, older traditions in Europe where wine has been part of everyday culture for such a long time. And then there is, you discover this freedom, this freedom to just enjoy wine on your own terms, that you don't have to learn all that lingo, you don't have to spend a fortune on a really good bottle of wine. You do to invest some money into a good bottle of wine. I agree with that. But there is suddenly this freedom to say, let's just enjoy it and be on a journey of discovery. And while you can learn from all of these wine writers and wine educators, I also think we need to sort of keep them at a distance so that we have more opportunity to discover for ourselves what wine is for and to read the Bible and to read all these, these great poets and theologians who have written about wine. And I've tried to do that in my book the Soul of Wine. I've tried to bring in some of the quotes, some of the anecdotes of how people have reflected on wine and how without pressure in light heartedness. That is.

What's one of your favorite anecdotes and stories from the book?

I think my really favorite story, and I'm not sure if it's in my book the Spirituality of Wine or in the Soul of Wine, but a Benedictine monk was fiddling with second fermentation and that was a time when others were doing that too, and he started using a cork. And so in all of his experimentation, he sampled the wine that had gone through another fermentation, and it was very sparkly, and he was so excited. And he called his brothers, and he called to them and said, come quickly, I am drinking stars.

So good.

That was Dom Perignon. He thought he was drinking stars when he was sampling sparkling wine. And that is one of the most beautiful metaphors for what it feels like to drink a really well crafted sparkling wine.

That's beautiful. So when you were talking a minute ago about pretentiousness of wine, you just made me think, there's a parallel here to our work. Right. So when we approach wine as a weapon to make me feel superior to other people, you can't enjoy wine for the sake of just the goodness of that gift. The same is true for our work when we approach our careers and whatever job title we have and whatever accomplishments we have as a means basically of self salvation, work will never feel like a calling. It'll always be a slave driver in our lives. It's only when we can rest in the truths of the gospel and the identity of who Jesus says we are that we can approach our work and enjoy our work just for the good, good gift that it is. So there's a beautiful parallel there.

Yeah.

All right, Gizel, three questions I love to ask every guest on the Call to Mastery. First, I'm really curious which books you tend to recommend or give away as gifts most frequently.

Obviously, I give away the Spirituality of Wine and the Soul of Wine a lot these days. Sure.

Yeah.

I would like to see a wider conversation, and I would like to see for Christians to reclaim this. I want for theologians and pastors who don't feel like they can continue as theologians and pastors, I want them to consider going into the wine world and find their vocation there. I think that's really, really important that we do that. I give a children's book away that I love, and that's called the Gardener.

Interesting. I don't know this. Tell me more about this book.

Well, it's about a girl, and it's during the American Depression, and she's sent to help her uncle in the city with the bakery, and he's a very grumpy man. And she starts plants. She collects seeds and plants them all around the bakery on the rooftop. And she transforms her uncle's life by being a gardener and by planting things.

That's beautiful.

So I love encouraging people in seeing that spiritual Formation and soul care ultimately in the long run has to do with us reconnecting with the earth and being rooted in the earth. And that can just mean living in the city and planting a few seeds in a flower pot. That could also mean planting a little garden or that can mean visiting a winery that's close by on a regular basis and learning about God's creation. So I love doing that. So books by Wendell Berry, I like his poems a lot. His Sabbath poem are very important for me and I've given them away. But there's a book by Abraham Heschel called Sabbath.

Such a great book. One of my all time favorite books.

Yeah. And then there's a book called for the Life of the World that is a very, very important book for me to give away. Yeah. And the book that most recently I've given away a lot is a book called the Body Keeps the Score. It's by a psychologist who works in trauma therapy and with the neurosciences. And again, he has a much more holistic approach to healing the whole person. And I think that his view of the human person and the way he suggests healing can happen is much more in sync with sort of the way the sounds understand the way we heal. And for me, the Sounds is the prayer book for Christians in the Bible. So that's something that I'm really interested in. We are moving and developing our understanding of how we tick as human beings and how we heal. And I think there's a lot of good work being done that's actually very biblical. It's much more integrational. So that's a book that I like giving away a lot.

Those are great recommendations. I wholeheartedly recommend the Sabbath Book by Abraham Heschel. And I'm gonna check out the Gardener. That sounds like a great read for my little girl. So I'm really curious, which one person would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences their efforts to create and reshape culture?

Someone that I have a lot of respect for. His name is Peter Harris. He founded an organization called Russia. He was one of the early Christians, very committed Christians involved in creation care. He's an ornithologist. And they started developing these sites where they started bird observatory centers. They worked with local governments and developed educational programs for children. But always with a passion for the gospel and a true calling to hospitality to see all of creation being redeemed. He is one of my great heroes and his name is is Peter Harris. And he co founded Arasha.

Yeah, I gotta check Peter out. That's a great recommendation. All right, so last question. You know you're talking to an audience of believers, Christ followers, who are passionately trying to do the absolute most masterful work they can do primarily for the glory of God and the good of this world, the good of others. What one piece of advice would you give to those people who are trying to master their particular crafts?

I would tell them to rest in God and allow God to lead them and to not be too perfectionistic about it. Not forget joy in the process.

That's good. And relinquish control. Going back to a theme we just discussed a few minutes ago, Gisela, I just want to commend you for the masterful work that you're doing. Thank you for helping people all around the world to understand God's Word better. Thank you for helping the church to reclaim food and wine as these good God given gifts. And thank you for helping us better understand the eternal significance of all of our work. Hey, you can connect with Gisela and learn more about her book and find out about all of these wine pilgrimages she's doing@gisellecreglinger.com obviously the link is right here in the show notes of this episode. Gisela, thank you so much for joining me on the Call to Mastery.

Well Jordan, it's been a delight to talk with you.

So who wants to go on a wine pilgrimage to Israel? That sounds amazing. But seriously, if you're interested, shoot me an email. Maybe we can get a group together. I hope you guys really enjoyed that conversation. You guys know how much I love talking about how our efforts to create and redeem culture are eternally significant. That was a terrific perspective from somebody who's both a master theologian and understands what it takes to be masterful at the art of making wine. What a beautiful conversation. Hey, if you're enjoying the Call to Mastery, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode in the future. And if you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor and take 30 seconds to go review the the podcast right now so more people can find the show. Hey, thanks for listening to the Call to Mastery this week. I'll see you guys next time.