Dr. Kennon Vaughan (Lead Pastor at Harvest Church)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

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Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote.

But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of near Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as farmers, Special Forces, officers and engravers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Dr. Kenan Vaughn, lead pastor at Harvest Church in Memphis, Tennessee, and founder of Downline Ministries. Dr. Vaughn is one of the people God used a decade ago to transform my thinking on the Great Commission. And we finally had a chance to connect live for the first time. Here on the podcast, we talked about this brutal and tragic accident Dr. Vaughn.

Was in in a plane crash in.

January of 2023, and how it changed.

His relationship to his work.

We talked about how the most common misapplications of the Great Commission are thwarting your purpose at work. And we talked about why you and I need to do less and abide more if we want to be effective at making disciples in the workplace. Friend, you are not going to want.

To miss this terrific episode with Dr. Kenneth Vaughn. Doctor Ken and Vaughn, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Oh, man. Thank you so much, Jordan. So honored to be here with you.

I was telling you before we recorded, I don't think there's a person alive that I've quoted more that I have not actually talked to live than Dr. Ken and Vaughn. So the honor is all my man.

Really.

It's a treat to have you here. So, hey, I mentioned you before. I define this term, you're Christians as those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals. You're not a mere Christian, as I define it, you're a pastor.

But I love bringing people with your.

Experience onto the show from time to.

Time to help our listeners just better.

Understand a specific aspect of how our faith should shape the work we do in the world.

And today, I want to start by.

Diving deep into your excellent teaching on the Great Commission because it's probably the best I've ever heard. And I remember, man, you might not remember this. I think it was on right now media, like, 10 years ago. You had this downline discipleship video, and you just said something that totally stopped.

Me in my tracks.

You said that go is not the primary command.

Matthew 28:19.

Whereas the NIV says Jesus said go and make disciples of all nations.

So explain why go is not the.

Primary command here, Dr. Vaughn, help us understand this.

Sure. Well, the reason it's not the primary command is because it's not a command at all.

It's a part of it.

Yeah, yeah, you're teeing me up. And listen, I'm not a linguistics scholar, but I've studied under some. And this is one of those passages that's Been riveting for me to study, just as you said. It's been eye opening, as you've heard me teach. I stand on the shoulders of many good and wise scholars, literary scholars, and what they've taught me and what I've seen in my own research and come to learn is that in Matthew 28:19 there is a command. And the command is mathetous, it to turn men into disciples. It's that verb right there, make disciples. And you have these other prominent verbs in the verse. You have go and you have baptizing, you have teaching. And all three of those are participles that really tell us how we're to carry out the command, which is to make disciples. And specifically on that word go, you know, if you really want to geek out on it a little bit, it's a participle of attendant circumstance, which is to say that you can't carry out the force of the primary command, which is the only command to make disciples without going. But go itself is not the command. So this is not ultimately a text about how far you go or where you go, but what you do as you go.

Yeah, the literal standard version, which I quote frequently, renders Matthew 28:19 this way.

Having gone.

Yeah.

Then disciple all the nations. Would you argue that's a more accurate translation of Jesus words?

Well, that is the accurate. It's in the aorist tense, which we didn't mention. But if you were to transliterate this accurately from the Greek, it would be having gone. And that's the idea. You picture Jesus huddled up on this rock outside of Galilee. You know, this is the only post resurrection appearance of Christ that's set by previous appointment, which just gives you an idea of how.

Hold on, hold on. Tell me more about that. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, we have 11 post resurrection appearances of Christ recorded in scripture and then others that are referred to that we don't have a specific account of. We just know there were many more, but 11 that we have an account of. This is the only one that Jesus set by previous appointment. In other words, before he even endured the cross, he had set an appointment right here that, hey, you guys. To the disciples, meet me at the designated place in Galilee on the other side of this thing. That's in Matthew 26, it's recorded. And then the angel actually reminds Mary when she sees the angel at the tomb, hey, go tell the disciples to meet Jesus where he told them to meet them. And so there's a reminder so they go to. Oh yeah, he told us to go to this place. So, I mean, there's an incredible significance to this particular meeting because Jesus appointed it before he even went to the cross. And it's the only such meeting. He didn't just surprise them and show up in their presence and appear to them this one, they went and they met. And so the reason this meeting in Jesus mind's eye was so significant is because of the significance of the command. There was a, you know, from the time he called them three years previous, follow me and I will make you fishers of men. Well, three years they walked with him, they learned from him, they in so many ways became like him. And, you know, as Luke 6:40 says, the student becomes like his teacher. There was this incredible discipleship process that happened. And then we come to this great commission, as it's been called since the early days of the church, that it's not done yet. Jesus wants to task them to make disciples of others the same way he did with them. And so the idea of having gone is, hey, when we break this huddle, so, so to say, having gone from here, the only thing we have left in way of Jesus physical presence with them is the ascension. And of course they're going to be staring at the sky. The angel is going to say, hey, he will descend in the same way you see him ascending today. So get to work. What are you waiting on? And Jesus message that's ringing in their minds and in their hearts, which we see readily in the book of Acts play out, is having gone. When we break the huddle, here's what you're to do. Here's the command. Make disciples turn men into followers and learners of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, and I love how you pointed out that Jesus himself didn't quote, go to quote all nations. Right. He went, I don't know, a couple hundred miles away from his hometown. Talk more, be more explicit about what that means for our listeners right now, today, who are going to work right now at Amazon or in their local coffee shop or whatever.

Yeah, that's one of the things that I find so perspective shifting, critically important about really diving deep into this text. And just to back up one step for this explanation, you know, I've probably heard this passage, Matthew 28, 1820. I've probably heard it taught at least half a dozen missions conferences that I've attended at local churches. And I love missions conferences. I love bringing in missionaries from around the world and hearing of what God's doing in other places. But oftentimes this text will be taught almost every time I've heard it in that context. It's taught with a specific application to all those who attend. And the application is, hey, we've got these missionaries. We're hearing the stories of what God's doing. They're called to be missionaries. Not all of us are called to be missionaries in cross cultural context, which I would agree with that in terms of the cross cultural context. But they say, hey, there are three applications to this weekend. You know, pray, give, go. Yeah, that's exactly right. To pray, give, to go. And what I hate is I really feel like at the end, those are all great applications for Christians certainly want to be praying for, for the gospel advancement at the ends of the earth. We want to give towards that. What better stewardship of our financial resources can we have? And should God make opportunities available or even lay a specific calling on it, let's go. But to use this particular text with those three applications actually misses the primary application for everyone. And that's that every single attender of that conference and every single Christ follower has a command when they leave that night. Having gone from this missions conference, having gone from here, when you leave your house in the morning, having gone, as you get up and go, we are to be disciple makers right where we are. You said it. Jesus liberally didn't leave more than 200 miles from his own hometown. And I don't think he's commanding us to see how many places we can go to or how far we can go. This command is for the entire army of Christ that as we go, we are making disciples. It's a lifestyle for a lifetime, just as it was for Jesus. We're following the footsteps of the one who spent 85% of his public ministry with 12 men. Surely. And my spiritual father taught me this sitting on his porch step over 20 years ago. He said, jesus Christ, surely he saw the masses, he cared for the masses, he had compassion on the masses. Matthew 9, he bled for the masses, but he saw the masses through the man. And he built the man to reach the masses. And he said, if we're following Jesus, that's the strategy for world impact that he's given us. And we have that same opportunity to see the masses have a heart that breaks for the lost to the ends of the earth. But right where we are, we can pour into a few, we can disciple a few right where we are, who, if the command holds, will disciple others, who will disciple others. There's a multiplying effect of the gospel going forth that will eventually and inevitably reach the ends of the earth if we're faithful right where we are.

That's so good. I, Lord willing. I'll never forget the way you articulated it in that video I watched 10 years ago. You said it wasn't about how far Jesus went, it was about what he did while he was going. The same is true for you and me. End quote. So just to make this abundantly clear to our listeners. Right, Dr. Vaughn, you're saying that the listener who is currently working as an executive at Walmart can be as obedient to the Great Commission as the listener living in a mud hut 5,000 miles away from Bentonville, Arkansas?

Yes, 100% and can be every bit as effective as I am pastoring a church and leading a non profit discipleship oriented ministry. The idea is every Christ follower has been given the same privilege of the stewardship of the Great Commission. And again, I'm going to refer to my spiritual father multiple times. Probably his name is Sue Campbell. And one.

What a name, what a name.

I know it.

Goodness.

Now, Jordan, his real name is Roy, but nobody knows that but his mom. Now me, you and you know, a couple hundred thousand listeners.

Soup Campbell.

Yeah, Soup Campbell. That's what everybody knew about. And Soup said, you know, if you really understand, lay hold of, live out the commission. Whether you're the Walmart exec that you talked about, whether you're living in the mud hut on the other side of the world, then long after you're in glory with Jesus, you're going to have a downline. That's where the name for Downline Ministries came from. A spiritual downline that's multiplying to the ends of the earth. You'll be worth more even when you're dead to the Lord than right now in your life because of the impact of your disciple making long after you're gone. If I can give you one story, one example, I was in Youth Ministry some 25 years ago and just by God's grace, I formed a relationship with a young man. He was a sophomore in high school and when I met him, he did not know the Lord. By God's grace, God convinced him of his sin, broke his heart, opened his eyes to the truth of the gospel he received Christ. This young man was. He was a basketball player at his high school. He's a large public high school. I didn't even know really how much of a leader he was at the time or what a leadership gift God had put in him. But he was just excited with that. You know, he's that new convert Energy, sharing the good news with everybody because of his excitement towards just his new birth in Christ. And it was unique. I don't see this all the time, but his friends had. God gave them ears to hear, and some of them started coming to Christ and more and more students. And there was kind of this little revival that was happening in the high school from this young man's testimony. I was his youth pastor for a couple years. And then God moved me to Memphis, where I am now. And he called me one day and he said, hey, would you mind coming back? We were near Kansas City, so would you mind coming back here and just doing a retreat with some of the guys that were in our small group? And this was like eight guys. So I said, sure, I would love to come spend the weekend. And I came back and I got there. We met for the weekend to just study the Word and, you know, play ball together and hang out. But I got there and there was about 45 guys there. And I said to the young man, whose name was Danny, I said, danny, I thought this was our small group. Who are these other guys? He said, well, you know, we're trying to be faithful to the commission. Each of the guys, we're all trying to just share the gospel. Somebody else in our sphere of influence, some of us have a little small group. We're teaching those things that you've taught us. And so, you know, we just said, hey, anybody, if you've got any guys you're pouring into, got any guys you're doing life with, whether believers or not, just invite them. So that's kind of who's here. I said, well, that's pretty cool. Well, six months passed, and he called me, said, hey, can we do that again, you know, the next year, President's Day weekend when it rolls around? I said, sure. And so I showed up again, and there was about 75 guys. And I said, danny, who are all these guys? And Danny was a senior now in high school. He said, well, you know, our groups have kind of grown, and some of the guys we've been pouring into, they're kind of reaching out and trying to invest their lives in the gospel and others. And I don't know, he's kind of growing a little bit. I said, wow. Well, six months passed. He said, can you come do it again? He's a freshman in college now. I gather there at the place with them in Kansas city, and there's 150 guys there. And I said, danny, who are all these guys? And he said, well, you know, it's the original small group. And you know, now they're spread out, they're in colleges, they're working. Two of them are in the Army. I don't know. These guys are from all over. And I literally said, I stood up and I said, do we have anybody here from like the West Coast? We had a guy from California, we had a guy from North Carolina. On the east coast, we had multiple guys in the military who had been deployed overseas. And I stopped and just said, you know what's so interesting? I was only in that place for two years with a small group of eight guys. But we all got to see, you know, just from that gospel investment and then what the Holy Spirit did, turning on the lights in men's hearts is only he can do. There's a growing gospel witness from that little investment in that little place and time that's from California to North Carolina and going overseas as we speak. And I think every one of us was marked by that. We realized that every single person in that room, though we may never see it housed in four walls. If we just are faithful to follow Jesus model and his mandate here in the Great Commission, that'll be the testimony of every single believer.

That's so good, man. It's so good. What a great story. And let's not miss this. You didn't mention any of those guys as quote unquote, 200 supporting missionaries. They were college students. You talked about two of them in the army.

And you know, I do listen.

The Great Commission to make disciples is indeed great. It's a non optional command for every follower of Jesus. But man, I do think there's danger in emphasizing the Great Commission so much.

That we imply that it is somehow.

Replaced the first commission God gave us in Genesis 1 just to make culture and rightly represent him in the world, to take the raw materials of this.

Earth and make it more beautiful for.

Other human beings benefit and enjoyment.

Right? And I think it's dangerous for a.

Lot of reasons, but one of which.

Is that scholars tell us that it has always been when Christians are most.

Engaged in the first Commission, building businesses, building hospitals, serving the poor, et cetera.

Et cetera, that we've been most effective.

At the Great Commission.

And I would argue that's probably going.

To be true in this increasingly post Christian context when entire countries are shutting their doors to donor support of missionaries. When here in the west, unfortunately, it's pretty unlikely that somebody's going to darken the door of a church to learn about Jesus for the first time.

So where are they going to hear the good news?

Through those kids in the army, through those kids going to college campuses, but push back on me. Am I wrong here? Am I right here?

Give me your perspective on this.

No, I think it's an important point to make, is that, you know, Jesus said of his followers that we're meant to be salt and light. We're meant to preserve. We're not meant merely to create and cultivate, as you're referring to the first commission in Genesis, but we're meant to preserve truth and a culture, even a culture that is careening away from any semblance of gospel centrality. We're meant to be light that pierces darkness. And you're right. I pastor a church. I love the local church with all my heart. I love the Jesus ministry of shepherding of people. Underneath, of course, the presence of a good shepherd who is none other than the Lord. But most people in this culture aren't just going to show up at church, especially as their introduction to the gospel. Some do. But more often than not, it's through a person. It's through somebody that is light and salt. In a workplace that's light and salt. In a school, in a parents meeting, in their battalion, in the Army. We were just talking about, like, it's somebody. There's something about them that's so different. There's something about them that's unique. If you asked them, they'd say, gosh, I don't know. It's just. They just kind of have a joy that is contagious even in the midst of difficult circumstances. They have a peace that doesn't even make any sense to me. Even when things are going wrong. They have a willingness to love others even when it cost them something. They're going to start noticing the fruits of the Spirit. They're going to notice the Christ in you probably before they ever know the gospel you believe. And so it's critical that we have a witness because of who we are, that allows somebody to hear what we believe. And, you know, if I can tether that back just explicitly to disciple making, if somebody asked me, hey, what does it even mean to make disciples? I would go to first. Thess. 2, 8 is the most succinct definition in the Bible of what it means to make disciples. In that verse, Paul says, speaking of himself in silence, and Timothy to the Thessalonians, he said, we loved you so much that we gave you the gospel of God in our lives as well, because you became so dear to us. And in that Whole chapter he's talking about. We just lived among you, we worked among you. We were not a burden to you. We didn't ask you to pay us for our ministry. Like we just wanted to be with you at your dinner tables, at your workplaces. We want to be in your life. And the bookends of that, we loved you so much because you became so dear to us. What gives you the right to speak truth into somebody's life is love. And Paul says, we're going to love you so much that there's an opportunity to speak truth and there's weight to our words. We're going to give you the gospel of God and our very lives. That's disciple making. And it starts with that relational connectivity that comes from loving somebody and being who Christ has called us to be.

It's so good, man. All right, so talk to the Walmart executive or the public school teacher in your congregation, or the mechanic or barista. What does it look like practically? Maybe even stories you've heard from your own body. For them to show up and embody love in that way and show love in that way to their co workers, that does raise the question to which the gospel's the only answer.

Yeah, well, you know, the first thing that we all recognize is there's only one who really embodies love. That's Christ. And the great command we have in John chapter 15 is that we would abide in Him. And the promise is that when we do that, he'll abide in us. And then there's a further promise. If he's abiding in us. It goes on to say in verse 12 that his joy will become our joy and our joy will be complete. Now we're in a fallen world. We're going to suffer. There's going to be just suffering. Just because life in a post curse world, there's also going to be trials that we'll endure. There's going to be spiritual attacks from a very real enemy. There's going to be some tests that God brings into our lives. But amidst all those circumstances that we cannot control and that we don't understand, there's an opportunity for us to abide in Christ. And when we do that, amidst the weight of this world, because we every barista out there, you and those you're serving coffee with, you're all feeling the weight of the world. You're all going through stuff. There's only brief glimpses when you go, man, everything's just great in my life. The longer you live, there's a lot more time in the valleys than on the mountaintops. And it's when you're in that you're enduring a trial or you're enduring suffering, you're walking through something hard. We have this incredible invitation. It's a commandment. It's an invitation to just crawl into the lap of our Lord, to be close, to draw near to the Lord as he draws near to the brokenhearted. The psalmist says, and as we do that, the presence of Christ in us and boy Jordan. If I could say one thing about the valleys, I don't ever pray for a valley. I'm probably just not mature enough to do that. But it's in the valleys where I draw nearest to the Lord. I know my need, I know my dependence. And when I draw near to him, that's when I find a greater intimacy with Him. So here we are Christians in the workplace, we're Christians in this world experiencing the same difficulties as every other human. We're having the same human experience in a post fall world. And yet there's something so radically different. There is an intimacy with the Lord. It's kind of like, and it's like this little light bulb and it just keeps getting brighter the harder we're squeezed when we're drawing near to the Lord. And so you know, the first thing that a Christian's got to do is remember that our privilege is abiding. Everything comes out of that metaphor Jesus. When we abide, we're the branch, he's the vine. If the branch stays connected to the vine, the SAP will course through the branch and it will produce fruit. Sometimes if we focus on producing fruit without abiding, we're not going to be able to produce any fruit or it won't be a good fruit because it's a fruit of our own efforts. So just the first thing I just would back up and say to your question, hey, what's the first thing? We do have a true abiding relationship with Jesus? I mean literally, if we keep that contact intact, then good fruit will come because of the faithfulness of Jesus. So that's what I would say, abide. What does your abiding with the Lord look like from a time of meditation on God's word, a time of prayerfulness, a daily time, to a conversation that doesn't quit to especially when you're squeezed in trials and suffering. Here's your opportunity. The Lord will not waste one ounce of our suffering. It's an invitation to draw near to Him. When we do that, get ready for A harvest of fruitfulness.

Man, I love this answer so much for a bunch of different reasons. One, I asked you very much a how to question, a doing question, right? Like, what does that Walmart executive, what does that public school teacher, what does that mechanic do to show love? And your answer was a bean answer, right?

It's.

It's, hey, we can overcomplicate this. Let's make sure. First principles, right? First things first. We're abiding in the Lord because that's the only way that we are going to be transformed in his image. And then it's almost inevitable. Like, as we abide, we can't help but ooze grace and mercy and love to those that we work with. Is that what you're saying?

That's exactly right. Because now you're getting into the promises of the Lord. He's saying, here's what's going to happen as you abide in me. So now we struggle with faithfulness. God does not. Second, Tim 2 says, Even in our faithlessness, he is faithful. So I do think the answer to that, the how to question, is ultimately a question in identity. It's that we be still in the Lord, that we learn what it means to have His Holy Spirit alive. It's Galatians 2:20. It's no longer me. I've died. That Christ is alive in me. He's the only one that can live the Christian life. I can't do it. The Christian life is not hard to live. It's impossible to live. Only Jesus can live it. Only he has lived it. So I've got to figure out how. Here's my privilege. I get to be in Christ and Christ in me. And so abiding is the answer to how we live in this fallen world, how we love the way that we've been first loved. And it's again, it's the integrity of the gospel seen in our very lives. It's the transforming power of that somebody else sees that's at work in us that they sure would love to know could be at work in them. That gives us the starting line, that gives us the relational capital to begin making disciples.

Yeah, it's really good. And that's seen even more clearly in trials, which you're no stranger to. I mentioned before, I've been quoting you for years. And back in January 2023, I'm not sure if you know this, by the way, back in January 2023, one of your elders emailed me and was like, hey, you really need, gosh, I love your Work. Jordan, I know you quote Ken and.

Have you ever met Ken?

And I was like, no. He's like, oh, my gosh, you gotta meet Ken. So he connected us via email.

And then eight days later, you were.

In this horrific accident. Would you mind telling our listeners what happened?

Yeah. January 17, 2023. As you mentioned, I was in a plane crash. And it was a tragic crash. It was a small plane, private plane. It was being piloted by an elder in our church who was actually a spiritual hero of mine, one of the godliest men you'd ever meet, a man that embodied everything we're talking about. His name was Steve Tucker. And my best friend, Bill Garner, was on the plane. Bill had the unique role in our life, in my life, he was the executive pastor of church, but he was my best buddy. He was my accountability partner. He's in the trenches with me. He was also a little older than me. Season of life ahead. He was a mentor of mine. Just meant everything to me. And then we had two young guys. In fact, in the nature of this conversation, Jordan, there was two young guys, one of whom I'd been investing my life into. He was like a spiritual son in the faith. I would say that with full integrity. He was a young man I've been disciplining for over a decade. Tyler Springer. Just love him. And then another young man, Tyler Patterson, who had recently just found me one day after church and said, hey, I'd love to spend some time with you. And. And I'd invited those two young guys to be on this trip. So it was kind of two of my mentors, two young guys, and we went off what was meant to be a day trip in our plans, a day trip to Texas, because Steve had a saddle business there that we were going to go visit, but just really to get time with one another and just for the fellowship of it. And on that day, the Lord had other plans. We crashed in Yoakum, Texas. And in the immediate impact of the crash, those four men went to be with the Lord. I was the only survivor of that crash. And in the moments after we impacted the ground and my world was spinning, and when I kind of came to, there was a stillness really like nothing I've ever experienced. And I could see that those four men were with the Lord. And it was a sacred moment right there. The Bible speaks to the Lord's faithfulness in our lives, that when we take our last breath here, our next breath in his presence, to be apart from the body. It says in 2 Corinthians 10 to depart from the bodies to be at home with Christ. And it was a moment when those men's faith became sight. Paul says in Philippians 1, to depart and be with Christ is far better, but to remain with you all is for your joy and progress in the faith and Jordan. I don't know the Lord's purposes of course in the tragedy of the crash that day, nor his purposes in keeping me here. My survival rate of that kind of a crash with that kind of impact was 0, 0.00. And so it was a complete miracle of God that He kept me here. And I believe I find my purpose in that Philippians 1 text. It's for the joy and progress of others in the faith. And for whatever reason the Lord has me here a little longer for that purpose. And so I want to be faithful to that. But that did, that was just about, you know, 18, 20 months ago and began a chapter of suffering in my life that's been unequal in any other chapter. And even I was saying a minute ago to you, the Lord's been so faithful in the suffering to teach me so much and more than anything to draw me into a deeper knowledge of him and intimacy with him than I've ever experienced before.

I've been praying for you off and on in your local body believers for the last 18 months. And I remember praying specifically when I first heard about the crash, that one of the good things that God would bring about in this horrific traumas that you would know God in a deeper, more experiential way. And so I'm curious, like what did.

You know about God cognitively prior to.

The crash that you now know deeper and more experientially post the crash.

Man, that's such a great question. It's a question you can spend your whole life thinking about. You know, that's one thing suffering will do. It'll allow you to experience your theology. And you know, my theology is, has been as best I can understand what God's word says is true about God and his sovereignty and his greatness, that he is El Shaddai, God Almighty and his goodness, that he is Yahweh, a covenant keeping God that we can know and love and Abba Father and a strong tower and a refuge in time of need. There's verses throughout the Psalms. I've done studies on the names of God. We know God's revealed in His Word who he is at a cognitive level. And then you go through something like that. And I hope listeners don't go through something exactly like that. But you live long enough, you're going to go through some suffering and you're going to lose loved ones. You may get a diagnosis of your own life that reminds you of how fragile life is and how fleeting it is. But whatever it is, it's really when life hits you in way of suffering that now God is not just. It's not just the names of God, it's the person of God that we experience what those names communicate in terms of who he is. And so, you know, for 21 days I was completely immobile in an ICU bed and then a step down unit where they were just doing surgeries and trying to keep me alive. And I was cognitive through much of that, but I knew I was day to day. And Jordan, I don't know how else to get somebody there except to be there when, you know, none of us are guaranteed our next breath or our next day. But when you're in that, you really feel the weight of that, like, wow, this could be my going home day. This could be my going home hour. I mean your hour to hour, your day to day. And I'm telling you, you cling to Jesus. Just the gift of knowing Jesus in those moments and knowing that you have an assurance of what we hope for, for in Christ. And every time they take me back and do another surgery, and every time I'd close my eyes realizing I'm either going to wake up and still be here and hopefully healing or I'm going to see the Lord. And there was an incredible assurance. There truly was a Philippians 4 Peace that passes understanding. There was a sense of not merely God's sovereignty, but God's sovereign goodness. Even in the midst of suffering, even amidst all the whys of God. God, why did this happen? And I don't know the will and way of God in the details of my life, but I do know that Romans 8 says, there's not a single detail that is forgotten by God or not understood by Him. We don't understand, he does. And it says he'll use every single experience. He even gives this to us in the context of suffering, says for his glory and for our own good. And you know, even those four men, I would, I would never trivialize for a moment the significance of their loss. Especially because I'm still very close to all of their families, the three widows, the children. So this is a grief that I bear and walk with each day. But God was faithful to those men even on that day. He did not forget them. He did not forsake them he remembered. And he finished the work he began in them as he brought them into his presence. And he won't forsake their loved ones. I'm only here for a little bit longer, Jordan. I don't know if it's measured in days, months or years, but soon enough, we'll all be where they are. And so the idea of having a faith that is experienced in the presence of God's faithfulness, when you don't understand and you can't control and you're hurting, that's where these names of God become real. And boy, Jordan, we'd have to have a considerably more lengthy conversation for me to give you all of the things that God's already done. Here's what we know. He purposes even our suffering for good. It's like at the end of Joseph's life, you know, he said to his brothers, even though you guys made it for evil, God used it for good. And we know that God's going to use the tragedy of that crash on January 17th for good. I don't know if this is a bad metaphor, but every day is this gift. And part of the gift of each day is I'm still alive, knowing that's a miracle of God purposed for good, that I can't wait to see what it is, you know. And let me just give you one, just one snippet. I know that Dr. Geist wouldn't mind me doing this, but preface this brief story by saying, I think I've got about 20 stories just like this one. And that's why I said we'd have to have a longer call. But it was maybe day six or seven after the crash, and I'm laying in the hospital bed and Dr. Jordan Geiss has been my surgeon. He's a lieutenant colonel in the Army. I was at a Brooks Army Medical Center, a Trauma 1 military hospital in San Antonio. Best place in the world I could have been to get treatment. He was off duty. He wasn't even on call. He was riding a bike in a rainstorm when they were bringing me in. But the on call guy and the on duty guy were both tied up. So he got a buzz on his phone that said, hey, can you come in? There's a guy that's in stable but critical condition that was just in a plane crash. So he's riding his bike through the rain to get to the hospital. He scrubs in. It's me. He opens me up and he gets in there, and there's so many things going on. I won't bore you with the details, but one thing that was weird was there was a green substance that was kind of leaked everywhere, and he knew that my bile duct was leaking, and he couldn't even find it with all the mix up of internals going on. Well, he did about five hours of other surgeries before he ultimately was able to find that my bile duct was completely severed. There was no real template for how to move forward with a severed bile duct. So he makes some calls, he kind of goes into MacGyver mode for the older listeners in our audience, and he just kind of rigs up a system that he hopes will drain the bile from my stomach into my lower intestine and allow me to survive. But he's in there doing that. Of course, I don't know this. He's in there going, golly, there's no playbook here. There's no proven procedure. We're just. Just kind of going, you know, he didn't have a ton of confidence in what was happening, but it was the best he could do. He said, this is the best. So a few days later, he's watching me like a hawk. And a few days later, every day, he's just as he would tell me later, he didn't tell me at the time, as he would tell me later. I was waiting for something to go horribly wrong and to reveal itself. And we were just going to kind of triage the situation as we went. But day by day went by, nothing was going wrong. So one day he came in, he sat down, he took off his surgical mask, he goes, hey, tell me your story. And I said, I'm sorry. He said, we had talked about nothing but medical emergency stuff. Tell me your story. And I thought, well, I think he wants to hear my story, my testimony. So I shared. And when I finished, his eyes were teary and he just was nodding his head in silence. And I had shared about the Lord's, my salvation and my grace through faith in Christ, reaching me as a kid, growing me over the decades through his faithfulness, teaching me what he's been teaching me. And. And he sat there in silence. And I said, hey, why do you ask that question? I said, do you have a relationship with Christ? And he just kind of shook his head, no. He said, you know, as a kid, I did, but I've long since left that. And I said, well, his name is Jordan. I said, jordan, I would never theologically say it like this, so I hesitate to do so on this podcast as well. I said, theologically, I wouldn't say it like this, but, you know, maybe God wanted to use you to save my life. Maybe he wants to use me to save your life. And he just leaned forward and he said, I think he does. And he said he was so moved. He didn't understand how God was sustaining my life. He said, there's something. There was God in this. The miracles were such that even from his brain, which works from more of a scientific bent, more of a medical nature over the last 15 years, he said, there's something unexplainable and it reignited this faith of a child that he had once had and has brought him back to the faith. And he and I have become really good friends. My family traveled to San Antonio this summer. We stayed for two days with he and his wife and their kids. And now he's in Abu Dhabi as the head of a United States hospital there. But there's just this man who God has brought back to the faith and the dynamic at work in his family. It's just one small story with eternal consequence of how God redeems every ounce of our suffering for good if we'll just trust him with it. It hurts, it's heavy. But God is great and God is good. And you watch him begin to redeem. And man, it increases your faith every single day.

That's so good, man. I love it. You know, as I was dwelling on your story, I've been thinking a lot about Psalm 90:12 and Ecclesiastes 7. Just the wisdom all throughout scripture of thinking about death, like death is the most taboo subject in our culture today. We don't talk about it, we don't think about it. The scripture says it's wise and you've been forced to dwell on death over these last couple of years, and I'm sure even before that.

I'm curious what's changed in your work, Maybe in how you do the work.

How you approach it, how you think.

About it as a result of spending.

So much time in this valley of the last 18 months.

Well, you know, a gift that God's given me through this is one gift. There's been so many, Jordan. One of them is to hold more loosely the things of this world so that I can hold more tightly to him. And that may sound simple, but in just the rat race, even though I was previous to the crash and still am in full time ministry, there's a rat race of life. My beautiful bride. Now we've got five children. They're all boys. I've got three teenage boys and then two Younger ones. And it's just easy to get going so fast. Just trying to get kids where they need to be. Just like your days start kind of feeling more like survival mode than anything else. And, you know, I'm trying just like everybody else out there, I'm trying to live out my faith in the midst of this whirlwind of exhaustion. And I would say, and my wife would say, I didn't realize how tired I was and how burned out I was at the time of the crash until God pushed pause on everything in my life in a real radical way. I mean, for six months I just laid there. Couldn't even lay in a bed, just had to sit in a chair. And when you have that kind of time to think and to process life and then to rebuild your life, I wish everybody, Jordan, had an opportunity for a gospel reset in their lives like God's given me. Because it's really hard when you're in the midst of it all to take anything off your plate, you know, or to just kind of slow things down or find any margin once it's not there. But when your slate is clean and all of a sudden it's like, you know what? I got nothing on my plate. What do we want to put back?

It's like zero based budget.

Starting from zero, start from zero. And so we did not put a lot of things back on my plate that were on to make sure.

Like what?

Well, you know, I don't know that how many people relate to this. But, you know, athletics is a big part of my past and growing up and all my boys loved to play various sports. And from the time they were little, I tried to get out there, whether it was coaching them with stuff being at all games. And so in our home, a big part of the rat race was they're all involved in so many sports and I'm trying to be a part of all their sporting lives because I want to be a part of their life. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that was a, by the way.

The majority of our audience is nodding their heads right now. Okay, this is.

Well, the youth sports culture is like kudzu that had grown all over our lives and it was kind of strangling out A, any margin, but B, even our emotional energy to engage well with each other, just to have a restful rhythm, kind of a Sabbath rhythm, not just on Sunday, but throughout our week. So we realized, hey, gosh, all the things that we are most serious about, we're not able to really do because of Some things that aren't necessarily sinful or bad, but they've taken over our lives. So we made some real significant changes, just for instance, in youth sports from our boys cutting down what their extracurriculars they're going to be involved in, from my me not going to coach them anymore, and even more support them in ways that don't hinder me from leading our family in a rhythm of rest and worship. So we just kind of did an about face in what we prioritized as a family. And this sounds funny and it's totally against if you know me, if you knew me before the crash, everybody would describe me as a hard charger with endless energy, a go getter. And that was probably true, but not totally nobly. You know, there was a lot of idolatry in there, a lot of insecurity in that and a lot of just immaturity in that. So what we've pursued first and foremost as a family now is rest. Like coming out of this period of God confounding me to rest. How do we choose to enter his rest each day as a family? And then let's live out of that rest as we encounter the world we live in. Whether it's a sport we're playing, whether it's our friendships, whether it's the margin that we do now have that we didn't have, that we can enjoy him one another like there's nothing better, just days with nothing. And it's hard to do with seven people in a family, but days when there's nothing on the calendar, I mean, we break out in charismatic worship over there at my house because we love just being present with one another. And we're realizing now how much we were starved from not having that before the crash. That's one gift that God's really given us in this reset.

That's good. What's the biggest change to your calendar? Monday through Friday?

Well, that's an easy one because I'm embarrassed about this and maybe it'll help somebody out there. The Lord's real serious physically about our rest. And as a guy in full time pastoral ministry, Sundays are really busy for me. They say preaching for an hour's. Well, I can't remember the equivalent of running like 10 miles in terms of your physical.

Yeah, I've heard this.

And so yeah, we have multiple services. I'm preaching for half a day and then I've always got luncheons and things. So anyway, I would work Monday through Friday. I think about my sermon Saturday and I'm Preaching and ministering on Sunday. And that's part of the rat race I was running. So for me, the biggest change was actually having a day of rest. So I take Mondays off and that's something I had in theory, Jordan, my whole ministry career. Like, if you'd said you have an off day, I probably would have said kind of, yeah, you know, but if you don't guard that ferociously, it's not actually going to be a tangible thing. And so now we do. Like, if you're going to schedule something with me on Monday, you're going to do it through my wife and I'll just tell you, good luck. And so, you know, for everybody though, again, the barista, the Walmart, just your rhythm is not my rhythm. But you'd better have physical and emotional rest built into your rhythm. God said to rest. He rested the seventh day and said it was good. And so for us that feel like we can keep going, keep burning the candle both ends and, and not carve that time out. And you know, I know you've had Dr. Tim Keller on here, who's with the Lord now, and he's done a lot on how do you Sabbath? Well, that we've gleaned from. But there's recreational rest, there's meditative rest where you're actually praying and, and then there's the recreational, can be, you know, something athletic, something outdoors. And then there's. You're pursuing some growth. You're reading books that you want to read or listening to podcasts that are educational or stirring your affections for Christ so that you're, you're still doing things. But it's a purposeful engagement in life that from a place of rest that produces a greater sense of rest in the Lord.

Yeah, it's so good. And it makes you, I would argue, more productive in the things of the Lord those other days.

It's an absolute life changer.

Yeah, nobody's going to argue. I'm not going to argue that Sabbath was commanded under the new covenant, but it still stands as wisdom.

Right.

Like God works six days rest of one. Jesus works six days really hard rest.

One in a life giving way, not.

In a life sucking way like the Pharisees. Right. And we would be arrogant, I think, to ignore that rhythm. I think that's really the heart of that. All right, Kenan, four questions we wrap up every episode with. Look ahead to the bodily resurrection of your friends on this new earth. You're with them with Jesus face to face. Revelation 22. 5 says, we're going to reign with Christ. Isaiah 65 says, we're going to long enjoy the work of our hands on the new Earth.

You're going to be out of a.

Job on the new Earth, right? What do you want God to give you by way of vocational responsibility on the new Earth? Is there something you've always wanted to do for his glory you've chosen not.

To do in this age?

Yeah. Yeah, there is. Jordan. I spent my childhood growing up on a Texas ranch. Ranch that was in our family. It's actually 45 minutes away from where where the crash happened. And we were gonna visit the ranch that day. It's still in my family, but I am like the biggest cattle ranch wannabe that you've ever met. Every day my heart has this longing to go and cultivate the ranch and raise cattle. I just have so much cowboy in me that was never allowed to be developed. And so I long for it. But I do feel God's calling on my life in this brief time I have on earth in pastoral ministry. But yeah, if you're saying I can do whatever I want in that day in the new Jerusalem, then yeah, for me. Put me on a cattle ranch, please.

Hey. Isaiah 25, verse 6 tells us we got the best of meats and the finest of wines.

Got to come from the new earth.

It's gotta come from somewhere.

That's right.

Kenan Vaughn's cattle ranch in the new Texas.

Yes.

Can't wait to see what the new Texas is like.

Oh, man.

Hey, if we open up your Amazon order history, which books would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends?

Yeah, that's a great question. The ones I find myself giving away the most I give away mentioned Dr. Tim Keller, his book on marriage and his book on counterfeit gods. Those are two that I give away continually. Counterfeit guides to folks like me who could be tempted to get going really fast, pursuing things of this world. And our heart's susceptible to making idols out of things that are good but not meant to be. God and in marriage, if you're married or entering a premarital, counseling or season to really understand what marriage is and what it's not so good. Also Love Thoughts for Young Men. It's actually just a little pamphlet by a Puritan named J.C. ryle. It's probably my favorite discipleship resource. I've led 20 discipleship groups over the last 25 years. And every young man that I've ever had in a discipleship group, we start our groups with thoughts for Young Men by J.C. ryle. And then Valley of Vision is a really good Puritan prayers for your daily devotionals. And I'm going to throw one more in there, Jordan, I probably too many here, but we've got a gal on our staff named Ronnie Collier Stevens who is like a modern day Spurgeon. And I don't say that frivolously at all, but he has written some unbelievable books on Genesis, on John, and on acts that are meant to be devotional. And if you want, again, if you want, if you know, if you're a Charles Spurgeon fan or you like the insights that God gives this particular man. He's a 74 year old, just giant in the faith. I can't believe I get to work around him each day. An absolute hero. But you would be served really well if you picked up one of Ronnie Collier Stevens Devo books.

All right, Canon, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences the work they do in the world? Maybe somebody from your congregation?

Yes. Well, okay. If I've got to give one, I will pick someone from the congregation. We have a mid-40s, he's a pediatric dentist. His name is James Selectman. We all call him J.B. james Benton, selectman. And boy, Jordan, I really hope that you will have the chance to have him on. I don't know. Oh my goodness, where to begin. I don't know. A more authentic, passionate, influential, non vocationally, you know, just a guy that's out there living out his faith, impacting the world so incredibly and with such a full heart is JB and another reason I'd have him on, he is. I'm going to say this now and that way, you know, it'll break the ice for later, but he's from the hills of East Tennessee. Okay, so there's some hillbilly in jb just so you know. And he is absolutely hilarious. So if you haven't, it'll be your most entertaining podcast of the year. And there is nobody living out the Great Commission in the workplace that I know more than JB.

That's a great answer. I'd love an introduction to JB. That's a terrific answer. All right, Dr. Vaughn, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians doing a bunch of different things vocationally.

What they share is this desire to.

Glorify God in their work. What's one thing you want to say or reiterate to them before we sign off?

My father passed when I was 16 years old. Brain Cancer. And I was at his bedside when he died. And first time I had ever been at anyone's bedside when they died, much less a loved one. And something he said to me, I just had a privilege of a few moments with him, just one on one. And had two sisters. I was the only son. Dad was my hero. And he told me he loved me, which was precious to me. And I already knew that. But to have him say it then. And then he asked me if I would take care of my mother, his wife and man, Jordan. The way that hit me then, you know, I was overwhelmed with emotion. And I just immediately, immediately blurted out, dad, I'll do that. Like, don't you worry about that. And he died about two minutes later. And I had this chance for my best friend and leader to give me this commission, if you will, that meant so much to him. And I felt this just burst of joy in my heart when he did it, because I was like, oh, my goodness. And he just gave me what's most precious to him. He just gave it as a stewardship to me to do until I meet him again. Like there's a way I can honor him with my life until I see him again face to face. And I just want to encourage everyone listening to know the Great Commission and the way I know my father's commission to take care of my mother, that Jesus gave us something most precious to him. And he gave it as this glorious stewardship that every time you are engaged in making disciples, like you are doing what honors Jesus the most until you meet him again face to face.

That's good, Ken. And man, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you're doing for the glory of God and the good of others, for helping our listeners feel that weight and understand that they can be obedient.

Just this freeing truth that we can.

Be obedient to the Great Commission in our current vocation and location. And man, thank you for the reminder to redeem the time and to the end of the great commission of making disciples and the first commission and partner with God to make an entire world that oozes his glory.

Hey, guys.

You can learn more about Kenan's terrific work@downlineministries.com Kenan, are you active anywhere on social media, or did that also fall by the wayside?

Yeah, truthfully, I'm not. I know it's such a powerful tool that is redeemed for good, like, in so many ways.

I don't use it either as well.

Yeah, I'm not a social media guy. But but hey, to the listeners you mentioned Downline, we have a nine month institute where we take folks Genesis through Revelation and we teach you all the how to's of making disciples pulled out of the New Testament life of Christ. So check out the Downline Institute online. If you would love to know God's Word to know Jesus more and really know how to make disciples, we'd love to have you.

Man.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode.

As much as I did.

Hey, if you've been listening to the show for a long time, you know.

How how passionate I am about not.

Sacrificing the first commission in our discussions about the Great Commission. But man, Great Commission is indeed great. So are all of other of Jesus's commissions and commands. But it is great. And all of us are called to make disciples.

Not just the missionary picture on your refrigerator, not just the pastor of your local body.

Every follower of Jesus is called to.

Make disciples as we go about the.

Work God gave us to do in the first commission. And so I pray that this episode.

Has challenged you to do that and.

Equipped you with a new way of.

Thinking about how to do that. I loved Kenan's emphasis on abiding in Christ less about doing, more about abiding.

So that we can use Jesus to others.

Guys, thank you so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

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