Dr. Monique Perry-Graves (Executive Director of Teach for America North Carolina)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5meerchristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as Audiologists, restaurant hosts, and interior designers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my new friend, Dr. Monique Perry Graves. She's the executive director of Teach for America North Carolina. Pretty big job. She had a lot of big jobs prior to that. Monique and I recently sat down to talk about how to deliver radical candor at work, but in a distinctly Christlike way. We talked about the power of pursuing vocational visions that will never be achieved and how to lean into the hard parts of your story for God's greater glory. Trust me, you're going to thoroughly enjoy this conversation with Dr. Monique Perry Graves. Doctor Perry Graves, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thank you for having me, Jordan. It's an honor and pleasure.

Oh, man, the honor is all mine. So, hey, you're at Teach for America. You're running Teach for America in the state of North Carolina. I'm curious, what sparked this love of education for you? I know you had a teacher in the 12th grade who was really influential for you. Is that it? Like, what was the spark of a love of education?

Yeah, I think it's in my DNA. It really goes back a couple of generations to my grandparents, who during their time did not have a chance to kind of have the full formal education, particularly my paternal grandfather, who had an eighth grade education, but he actually worked at a school alongside my maternal grandmother and also was an entrepreneur and had his own business. And so they very much instilled the importance of education, supported education. Even though they did not have access to that traditional education themselves, they still valued it and also had a deep faith. And the intersections of those two things and the modeling of my maternal grandparents is definitely in my DNA. Even though they did not get a chance to go to college, they afforded and worked hard to make sure that my mother and her siblings had the opportunity to go to college themselves. And my mother, actually, her first job after she stayed home with me when I was young, was a teacher, even though she ended up being in IT and was an IT leader until she retired from her job. So I think a little bit of it is in my DNA. And then my story kind of took a different trajectory to kind of land me where I'm at.

What was that different trajectory? Give us the Reader's Digest version of that story.

Yes. So as I was graduating from high school, I became a young, and I still graduated on time, still pursued my undergraduate degree, graduated actually finished before many of my friends that didn't have the responsibilities that I had with my son. But really what helped kind of stay keep me on the course of that was first and foremost, a foundation of faith. Second, my family and village. But then third, none of the folks in my education ecosystem ever doubted that my path or abilities. And these were, you mentioned the 12th grade teachers, they were poignant during that time because that's when I initially was going through this situation. But even as I got to college and beyond, folks from all walks of life, some that looked like me, some that did not, and everything in between, they just never doubted my potential, period. And neither did my family. And then as I became, I would say, more focused on my faith walk, I've been internalized that because sometimes people can believe in us, but if we don't believe what God has put in us, when we encounter those types of circumstances that could derail us. Like, I recognize that, you know, I am, I may not be what the average person in that situation manifests to be, but I too had to believe it.

That's good. Is it part of the reason why you were drawn to the work of Teach for America? And actually, let's back up for a second. I don't want to assume there are listeners know what Teach for America, so just set the table for us there. What is Teach for America?

Yeah. Yeah. So Teach for America has been around for over 30 years. And it's really an organization that focuses on securing and finding the best talent across the nation and really asking them to make a lifetime commitment to education. And our mission, to ensure that every child has access to an excellent education. And we ask people to start that by making a commitment to do two years in the classroom. We are a federal AmeriCorps program, so very similar to like the Peace Corps and other programs that you might encounter. But we ask for them to make that commitment to two years in the classroom when they join us, and then they become an alumni of the program. So it's kind of think about college, you're with us forever, and so we support you throughout your trajectory. Many folks continue in the classroom beyond their two year commitment, but we're also focused on developing leaders as well. And so whether that's the leader in the classroom or, or the leader in a school, or the leader of a school system or everything in between, we know that good teachers work for good leaders, just like in the workplace. And we know the impact of a strong school or systems leader on the ability to retain teachers as well. And so we really kind of work on the whole continuum of talent which sets us apart.

And is your story part of the reason why you're so passionate about this work.

Absolutely. I've been a Teach for America a little over two years, but prior to that, the majority of my career is in higher education, even though I started right out of college and business. So I've, I've crossed industries. But after I got out of corporate, which was actually through a layoff, that I got redirected to education. So when I came out of college, I had an internship at a pewter software company. I'm like, I'm making good money. I got a job offer before I'm leaving. And then the Lord through a series of events, redirected me to what I feel now was my ultimate calling.

I love it. Why Teach for America needed Educate our listeners on the problem.

Right.

We know what Teach for America does, but why is this such a critical problem? And why should Christians care deeply about this problem?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that from a Christian perspective, you know, I think the alignment with the mission of making sure that everyone has what they need and so every child has access to excellent education, and so some kids have that inherently and some kids don't. But we know from a society perspective, we talk about the love that we should have for people and our neighbors and folks that are around us that we may or may not know. Every child deserves that. And so a big component of that is the folks that are leading in your classrooms and the folks that are leading in your schools and beyond. And so as Christians, we should deeply care about this because the kids today are going to be the people leading us tomorrow, taking care of us tomorrow and making really, really high stakes decisions for us tomorrow. And so having the right folks teaching, who have a love of that and want to make sure that education is accessible to all is the right heart for that. And so that's why Teach for America is for sure needed, because we need to consistently be looking for the best talent to make sure that they are centered in this field.

Yeah, it's good. One of my best friends, Kristi Adams, was on the podcast a couple of months ago talking about her work as a middle school teacher in the public school system. She's been there for, I don't know, 15, 17 years, something like that. And she said that she sees her choice of teaching in public schools instead of private schools as an act of justice. I love the way she framed that. Do you agree that Christians choosing to work in the public school system can be a way of following Micah 6, 8 and doing justice in our communities?

Yes. It's ironic that you said that the coffee mug that I'm drinking out of has Micah 6:8 on it right now.

Hey, here we go.

Yes. Yes, I think it is. But I think also there's many other fields we're honing in on education right now. But when I think of fields of public service. Right, because we all know that there are other fields that we could potentially be pursuing that could be a little bit more lucrative, you know, especially than that. I think that's a different conversation about that for teachers. But I do see it as that in those that do choose public service, I know for me, even though I have a love for it now, the Lord had to redirect me into education. It was not something. I came out of college, you know, hot off the press, ready to engage, even though I'm very aligned with that. So I definitely identify with her sentiments for sure.

What did the Lord do in your heart to that end, though, right? You got laid off, but, like, your resume is off the charts. Like, totally off the charts. You got all this business experience. You were an Aspen presidential fellow. Like, you are not having a hard time getting a job post layoff, right? Like, what. What was the Lord doing in your heart that was like, hey, Monique, I'm going to channel you to something way less lucrative.

Yeah, yeah.

And you're going to be cool with that. What happened?

Yeah, yeah. I laugh now because you know those moments where you're like, lord, help. So I was in the corporate workforce, and I got laid off during the 2008 recession. So when a lot of that hit, and at the time, the company I got laid off from, I was blessed to have a severance. I had my son at the time, so I was a young single mom. But, like, I was not in dire straits. So I was very thankful and blessed to have that. My intent was to go right back into the corporate field. And I was getting calls and, you know, people are like, hey, I got some leads. Those kinds of things. About six months prior, a mentor of mine at the time, I had just finished my master's degree in communications, and she was like, you know what? You would be a great college instructor. Like, you've been a working parent. You actually are doing what you've actually learned academically. So you have both lens of experiences. I was like, no, I'm good on school. I just finished my master's degree. I'm good on school right now. And she kept nudging me. So long story short, she actually had it such that I was applying for positions. And so I Got a position. I was teaching one night a week at a local community college. And when I got laid off and I started getting calls for interviews for other jobs, I literally would feel sick to my stomach talking to people about that. And at the time, I didn't know why. Shortly after that, one of my students unfortunately was a victim of violence in his neighborhood. And I remember looking back and talking to his family at the time about some of the impact of him being in my freshman seminar class at the time. And the combination of those things. Now I know it was the Lord disrupting my spirit. So I was feeling uncomfortable because I was like, this is the money I left, you know, got laid off. And then I'm looking at these education salaries and I'm like, lord, like this, this, the math ain't math. And you know, this is not working. Like, Lord, I was like, lord, help. You know, like I, I have worked really hard. You know, I grew up in a middle class, upper middle class lifestyle. I wanted to provide the same for my son. I worked very hard, you know, to do that and was at that place and it was just like, I couldn't, I couldn't. I had to stop taking the calls. And so I decided was like, Lord, I was prayerful. I did not want to, like, I'm going to be real. Like I accept it now, but I want to be real from a Christian perspective. Like, because I was focused on the monetary.

Yeah.

And I would have to take a pay cut to go into serving as a full time faculty member initially. Now I had the leadership experience to move into administration.

Sure.

But that's not where I was starting. So just to condense, to end the story, so I ended up moving into a role full time at a college. I took a pay cut. A couple years later, the college reorganized. I got into administration. And I would say by the time that I left the college, before I'd taken this role that had been redeemed and so much more and my path accelerated. It was just like very much ordained. All of the experiences, all of the tools all came together. But I had to take that leap of faith and trust him. Initially, I didn't miss a bill. I didn't miss a beat. I had a house at the time. Like my house was, I mean, like none of that now I learned some couponing, you know, like, but I didn't miss a beat. My son didn't miss a beat. And actually he was in private school at the time. My son ended up doing a mix of public and private school. Didn't miss a beat. The Lord provided and honored me taking that step, but I want to be real in the fact that I wrestled with.

Yeah, no, it's good. And even if it didn't lead to promotions and more monetary blessing in the future, your act of faithfulness in the present would have led to eternal reward. Because a lot of people are like, hey, I felt the Lord's leading. I've taken that leap. And it hasn't panned out economically, materially. Hey, listen, that's not guaranteed. That's prosperity gospel theology. But what is guaranteed is when we are obedient to the Lord, when we're working as unto the Lord, there are eternal blessings and eternal rewards to be sure. So that man, that's a great encouragement to our listeners. Monique. All right. Hey, so we've been talking a lot about how your faith influences what you do vocationally. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about how the gospel influences how you do what you do. And I loved in your pre interview, you quoted your aunt as saying, quote, it's better to. To live a sermon than to preach a sermon. End quote. What about how you work leaves people asking questions to which Jesus is the only answer?

Yes, my Aunt Linda is the famous.

God bless Aunt Linda.

Yes, about that. And she very much lives her sermon is a great example. So I think that there's a couple of factors. I think the story I just told you, you know, I've had to become a lot more comfortable with sharing my, you know, what we call in the Christian realm, testimony, in a way that because depending on what chapter you walk into someone's life professionally or get to know them, you may feel like there has not been a level of struggle, possible derailment, all of those things, because you just walked in on the chapter 20, you know, but you may not have been there through the 1 through 20. And so I try to, when I can lift that up as a way to show kind of what I feel my story is riddled with grace, redemption, and faith. And those are the themes of the story. And I see the opportunities. And to your point, they're not just for, you know, the economic may or may not come. That's not the leading factor. But the opportunities are a result of that. There's very much every step of the way the Lord positioned what I call kingdom connections, whether those people were of faith or not. Like, sometimes I might not have known that whether the person was a person of faith or not.

Sure.

And kingdom circumstances to orchestrate things where there was no other way, either the timing of it, how it happened, or how quickly it came together. It was nothing but God.

Yeah.

And so I think when I'm able to tell people the details, because it's not me. And I very much view any position that God puts me in as the mantle, and I'm there in service of him, and I'm there not to center myself. He's given me gifts so that I can be effective. Because I do believe you work onto the Lord. And I do think Christians should operate in a level of excellence of who we represent. I don't think that the church and Christians should be, like, poorly run organization. I think we should be an example to that. And so I try to balance those two things in how I work, but also that the gifting that I have does not come from me. It is purely a divine gifting. So I often refer to, like, spiritual gifts. Those are my spiritual gifts. Or like, you know, we say in the workplace, oh, this person has great judgment and instincts. I call it discernment.

Yeah.

I pray before, when I do my morning routine, before I start work, I pray for radical discernment. Like, lord, give me radical discernment in any, you know, decision, judgment, or anything that comes my way. And so I pray for those things to manifest in the work realm.

That's good. I want to circle back to where you started. The answer. I thought it was really, really insightful. You're talking about being transparent about your testimony, which. Listen, like, that's gotta be scary, especially in a professional context. Right? To be transparent about the hard parts of your story. But when you are, man, that just makes no sense by the world standards. Like, why would you tell chapter five of your story when it doesn't put you in a good light? And your answer is, because it makes Jesus the hero of the story.

Right.

And that's just totally countercultural, right?

Absolutely. And I think we make assumptions about people. I think a lot of times, you know, when you see people in snippets, right. You don't know what's behind that. And so what I had to learn is I've matured. I have not always done that where it's not like the first time I meet somebody, like, hey, let me tell you my testimony. Yes, Christians, we've got to calibrate how we. We do those things. But I will mention, like, hey, I had a young son, and. Or, you know, I. And I will open the door, right, to share some of the things that could have been more adverse circumstances for me, if not for The Lord and how he, the conditions he put me in and if not for my faith. Because I also think it's important that people not just see the people that surrounded me, but saw the level of personal, individual responsibility I took for my faith walk and how it doesn't matter how much can be orchestrated for you. There's a role you play as an individual in owning your own faith walk and maturing in that. And I often tell people that I'm a lot more mature than I was. I'm still, you know, the Lord is still working on me. I'm a lot more mature than I was then, but I just put one foot in front of another, right. And a lot of times people think your level of maturity they have to arrive at yesterday, you know, depending on where they are in their faith walk. And I often tell people just like one footed fist, just walk, just stay on the path and you will get there.

That's good. From the outside looking in. One of the ways I think the gospel shapes your work is that it leads you to be a force multiplier. You had a mentor call you that in the past, a force multiplier, Somebody who makes the people around them better. Right. And that, that's really rare in my experience because most people are just focused on their role, keep their heads down, doing their job. It takes time, it takes sacrifice to make others around you better. I'm curious what resources you think you have as a Christ follower that you've got unique access to that should that enables you to sacrifice time and energy to make those you work with better?

Yeah, that's a great question. I had not thought that until somebody told me that. And then I had to kind of reflect and be like, yeah, that is right. The majority of the time. I would say first and foremost, it's a mindset. I think mindset is just so critical to so many different things. And a mindset of servant leadership where my job as a leader, like especially those of us that are in roles where we have to be the face right or part of the gift. And part of what we have to do and engage is that we might be more publicly associated with the work and the output, but my role is to develop and grow people the way that I was grown and developed. And I really see when I look back at my journey, part of the reason why I was able to accelerate in so many ways and points is because there were people that were committed to me to do that, even though they didn't announce it. Right. They didn't come to me and say, hey, I'm going to do. You know, like, I truly see myself as that. And that looks different. Right. So. But I think sometimes people think Christians is all, you know, affirmation and, you know, like. And sometimes it's a constructive with love kind of orientation to help people get better. And one of my leadership values very much is authenticity. So I do tend to bring a level of candor to my leadership that can shift people in different ways. But I think it's so, so important, and I see it's a gap sometimes with people and their potential.

Talk more about that. What do you mean by candor? Right. And how do you see that as a means of loving those you work with and helping them get better at what they do?

Yeah, I don't think you can love someone and not tell them the truth.

I agree.

I don't think everything always needs to be said. Right. So I think it's the. And I think who says it, where, when, and, you know, it's kind of like in a marriage, like the same kind of things. But I think sometimes people make assumptions that Christians are only going to say things that are positive or not speak constructively. That's not the example that we have in the Bible by any stretch of imagination or that Christians don't get angry or don't have emotions. That's not biblically based by any stretch of the imagination at all. It's just the way that we do it is different. Right. And so that looks like pragmatically, you know, if there's a staff member that I'm working alongside and there's constructive feedback, you know, I'm not going to do that to them publicly. Right. It's going to be a private, you know, conversation that is going to deliver in a constructive yet respectful way, but also doesn't dishonor them as a human being. Right. I have seen, you know, individuals that do that publicly or do that in ways that's dishonoring. And so I think as Christians, if we love people, we have to tell people the truth. And when we don't tell people the truth, that actually hurts them more, in my personal opinion, than it does when we do. But we've got to be very thoughtful and prayerful about what, who, when. And I always think about that, like, you know, I'll be sitting at my desk or zoom and say a quick prayer. Like, I think also people think Christians like, you know, I'm sitting there with my head down for 30 minutes. You know, sometimes it's like, lord, give me the words, lord, tell me when you want to release me to say this. Because sometimes God doesn't release me to say something. I've had to learn that too, where it's like, I know it may be the truth, but he's like, I'm not releasing you to say that right now. Or sometimes it's like a conversation might happen that I didn't anticipate. And he's like, now's the time you need to deliver that information. Because that might be the time that the Lord has softened the person's heart or circumstances to receive it. Because I can deliver it. But if you're not in the posture to receive it, then it's not going to do what the Lord wants it to do.

Yeah. So if I could put words in your mouth basically saying, hey, listen, Christians are going to lean into candor because candor is a form of love, but we're going to be really prayerful about when we deliver that candor, deliver that hard thing that we need to say, and certainly where we do it right privately and how we do it as a way of addressing the issue, but not demeaning that other image bearer as a person. Is that fair?

Correct. It's kind of like we talk about when you are correcting children. Yeah. You're correcting the behavior. You're not. It's not the child themselves. And I think it's the same, you know, way. And I think we just have to always be prayerful about those things. And anything that we say and do aligns with what he wants to do because you never know how he's using us as a vessel in many different ways.

But I do think Christians should be more candid than non Christians, not just equally candid. Right. Because candor is a form of love. I think about Proverbs 27:5 a lot. It says, better is open rebuke than hidden love. Right. Those are the two things. Contrast. And then Leviticus, I think it's Leviticus 19. God says, do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor, frankly. Right. The opposite of hate is not niceness. Sometimes it's a rebuke giving critical feedback, but loving feedback as a way of being a force multiplier and loving our neighbors herself and helping them develop into all that God created them to be. Right.

Absolutely. And I think the more that we normalize the candor, the less it seems so abnormal. Right. And it doesn't become so high stakes because we actually grow from all kinds of feedback. And I always Tell people, like, please tell me, like, because I want to know early so I can adjust and redirect or whatever I need. I don't want to wait until the molehill becomes a mountain because it's a lot harder to actually address things. And I've seen that with people where along the way, they may not have received the candor, and then by the time the stakes are higher or it's just grown so much, and that's not helping. That's not helping people. And if we also have orientation of service in our leadership and in our work, I think that's all the reason why, to your point, we should be more candid. Why? Sometimes people assume we should not be. I'm not sure about that, but I do think that's an assumption that's out there.

Did you read no Rules Rules by Reed Hastings and Aaron Meyer?

No. I need to add that to my book list.

Really great. It's probably my most recommended business book in the last 10 years. Reid is the CEO of Netflix, and it's basically just a whole book around how Netflix's culture works. And there's a huge section in there all about candor and how to deliver candor in an excellent way. Not written from a Christian point of view, but by God's common grace. A really, really helpful resource for those looking to go deeper on this. Radical Candor by Kim Scott's also a really good resource on this. Is that your favorite on this topic?

Yes. Yes. I'm actually looking at that book on my bookshelf right now.

That's awesome.

I love it.

I love it. Hey, I want to circle back to something you said a few minutes ago. You talked about Teach for America's vision, right? That that one day all students will receive an excellent and equitable education. Amen. All about it. But, man, you and I both know, our listener knows that until Christ returned to complete the renewal of all things, there will likely always be a gap between that vision and the reality of the present day. We're going to make progress, right?

Yeah.

But there's always going to be a gap. How do you work hard to close that gap while realizing that it may never be fully closed? What's it like to work in the gap between that vision and that reality?

Mm, that's a good question. I think with anything you do. And the Bible also talks about vision and around leadership, too. You have to have a North Star aspiration. Amen.

Yes.

You have to have that. People are galvanized by that. People are inspired by that. And there's always a problem to be solved or a problem to be addressed. I think that when you think about the importance of education, there's another element of a exponential benefit to that. So I talked about earlier about the young kids today are the folks that are going to be making decisions for many of us, taking care of us tomorrow. The exponential effect of a sound education on a child's life, whatever direction they go into once they finish their traditional K12, whether that's military, whether that's community college, whatever that looks like, whatever that set of gifts, the contribution to the communities in which they can make as a citizen, as a participant in their community, but also as whatever version of family they decide to make for themselves, whether that's as a single, you know, person in their walk or as someone that, you know, has a family. The effects of society on that, that go way beyond education or excellent exponential. And so what I hold on to is making sure one kid has that affects so many other people. And education is one of those fields that does that. And so that helps in recentering, knowing that we can close the gaps to your point, but the North Star may not be achieved in our human, you know, lifetime experience, but you have to hold on to that. Which is why for me, that I have to, you know, people, you mentioned this earlier at the top of the podcast. I have people approach me about like, well, you know, why didn't you do this? Or why didn't you do that? Or you could have done that, or, you know, even when people call me about opportunities, still I have to be aligned with opportunities that center impact point blank, full stop. And so it's really important, not mean to say that people don't make impacts in their various vocational capacities, but there's a level of impact that I have to be centered on at this stage in my walk, unless the Lord directs me differently. That's super important to my continued motivation for this work and the energy that I'm able to assign to it.

Yeah, and there's something powerful about playing an infinite game, to quote Simon Sinek's book called the Infinite Game. You know, it's, you know, this game's never going to end until Christ's return. And that can be demoralizing, but it can also be terrifically motivating, right? Because, like, oh, this is so big and so audacious that the Lord's going to use this vision to fire me up to get out of bed every single morning and do the work that I believe is a on God's heart for Society. Right. Like that. That's an incredibly motivating thing. Proverbs 29:18 says, where there is no vision, the people perish. And when you get a really audacious vision, man, people thrive in that. Amen.

Amen. Yes, I agree. And you know, oftentimes, I know sometimes leaders, but leadership is hard. Like if you are really leading. You know, I tell my staff a lot of times when we have leadership conversations around, there are a lot of leaders by title in the world in various vocations.

Yeah.

If you think about how many leaders are really great leaders, transformative leaders, that's a small percentage of that. Yeah. And I also believe that people don't have to have a formal title to lead. I was thinking as a leader before I came became a formal leader by title. And when you really are all in on it, because you also have to make sure you're continuing to develop yourself because the more the leader develops, the people get better. Because if you are growing people, then you got to continue to grow yourself because that's important. And so leadership can be tough. You got to make tough calls. We talked about candor early. Sometimes people have to leave the organization. Sometimes you've got to make budget decisions. I've had to do all of that. And so leadership can be tough. And so you need that vision and that inspiration to even hold on for yourself in the tough times. I think sometimes people don't see in some leaders, often I think we just kind of go through the motions.

Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah. It's related to something you said in your pre interview that your faith enables you to, quote, operate, overcome and adapt as a leader in a variety of situations that some of your counterparts have a hard time understanding, end quote. Can you think of an example of that?

Yeah. I had a situation in a previous role a number of years ago where my boss at the time, for a short period of time was, for lack of better terms, bullying me. And we went from having a very strong relationship. The first, this is a person that hired me. So it wasn't like, oh, well, this new leader got hired and they inherited this team that they may not have. You know, they hired me, supported me and you know, there was a point in which there was a workplace decision that my boss made that they asked me to be involved in that from an ethical perspective, like not financial or anything like that, but just from a. It was a people related decision that while I wanted to honor the, you know, the fact that this is a person that's supervising me I need to make sure I'm following them. I know there's a biblical foundation for that. It borderlined on my values, and I expressed that in a professional and constructive way. And from that point on, the relationship deteriorated quickly. And I then found out, because I had just started working for this person, that there were other counterparts that had experienced that from the boss at the time, but I had not seen it because I was not working in the area. Sometimes you don't know until you get closer to a department. And I then had to figure out how I was going to navigate it while also protecting the people that worked for me at the time because it freed them to then express what they had been experiencing before I even got there. So I really had to lean into my faith at that time to make sure that I was grounded and centered to the point that I could be, because I then had to also steward a team that clearly have been challenged.

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine many listeners nodding their heads who have been through similar situations. I've heard this story or a similar version of the story many, many times. How do you think a Christ follower engages in something like that in a distinct way? Like, what's different about how you engage that situation than a non Christian counterpart?

Yeah, it actually is a time that I built some of the habits that serve me today. Yeah. That I did not have. I was a lot more prayerful time in prayer. I would wake up in the morning and, you know, like I said, this was a number of years ago, so we weren't working remote or hybrid. You know, I was going to an office every day and I didn't want to go. And it was less about the work. Like, I love the people that I work with. And I loved, you know, what I was doing. It was the leader. Yeah. And I was mourning the fact that, like, this was the first time in my career that I did not want to go to work. Like, you know, we all have days where, like, I'm tired. Like, I wasn't that. It was literally the dread of that. And I was drained. My spirit was drained. And I started a routine of deeper prayer and devotion in the morning before work in a disciplined way that I hadn't before. I've always been a praying person, but really giving God the first time, you know, in the morning. Yeah. I started the practice of. Of journaling in a way where it's like, I'm really just kind of writing to God in that kind of level of communication. I started devouring a number of books on faith, you know, I've always been an avid reader, but really introduced that in a different. And just tried to consume as much as I could at the time. And that helped me keep me afloat in a way that once certain people knew what happened after the fact, that they were like, I cannot see how you were able to do this or do that or be at this event. And I was able to say, it was God, when my strength ends, his wind and strength began always. So I was riding on that during that period of time. It was not me. I am a strong person, but my strength is not equal to his. And he equipped me to walk through that season, but to also be in a position to help others walk through that season as well. And I realized through that morning devotional time, not only, you know, there's that verse in James that talks about through your trials and all of that. And I would always pray like, lord, give me a way of escape. And he had to tell me, like, I may not be providing a way for you to escape. Yeah. Like how I deliver you out of this situation may not look the way that you. And it didn't. So the leader transitioned, and I stayed and my team stayed, and we end up growing exponentially after that.

Wow. I love that so much. Yeah. James. One, two. Consider it pure joy.

Yeah.

Whenever you face trials of many kinds, including this situation, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance, and in your case, Monique, it also produce an opportunity for you to boast in your weakness and God's strength to those that you work with. So blessed be the name of the Lord for that trial. Right. Nobody wishes that trial but man. God use that trial for his glory and your good. Amen.

Amen. Absolutely. And it strengthened. You know, we talk about professional growth spurts. That was a faith growth spurt for me. Yeah, very much so. Like a lot of the practices, a lot of what was in my heart at that time serves me very well today. Such that when trials do happen at times, the way that I walk through them or the way that I engage with them, not mean to say, oh, this is a cakewalk, but because I went through that, I kind of immediately know how I can handle that walk through it, because I've been through those things. Again, we don't wish it, but it does equip us for the next stages that God might put us on and things that we might encounter that may not look the same, but it equips us with the tools to walk through them.

Amen. And to walk others through them. That's the beauty of this. Right. God is sanctifying us, teaching us through trials so that we can better prepare for the next trial and come alongside somebody who's going through that trial right now and serve them as they're going through that and pointing them to God's goodness and his love. Hey, Marty, we initially connected over a post you made on LinkedIn about my book, redeeming your time. By the way, pro tip, if you ever want on the podcast, just, I don't know, post something extravagant about the book, and you're gonna go to the top of my producer's list.

Okay.

I love. I loved your post about that book. I'm just curious, what about that book? What about how Jesus managed his time has most influenced how you manage your time leading this incredible organization?

Yeah. It is one of my favorites. I have recommended it to a lot of people, which is why it was on that list. I think that we all talk about time management, time, whatever you want to call it. Right. And one of the common questions I get from people a lot is, how do you do all that you do? Right. And I think with anything, what I've learned over the years, you have to have an intentionality around it, and you've got to apply a practice around it and a level of discipline.

Yeah.

And what I loved about your book is it kind of goes back to that story I told you about where I really started. My voracious reader and me really started looking for books that intersected, like, my love of reading about work and leadership with faith. And so it really provided a mixture of some provocations that I think are rounded in pragmatic ways in the workplace, which is what I really have drawn to your work around that because I see the balance in that. And sometimes, like, you know, people think of Christian as, like, we're sitting at work like the. And thou, you know, all the time. And, like, that's not. That's not what I'm doing. Like, so it's like, you know, like, that kind of thing. And also the affirmations of some things that I had started doing.

Yeah.

That, like, okay, this is validation of that. And so I think that our gifts that God gives us and what he's charged, our mandates, we've got to manage our time to be able to execute on those things.

Yeah. This is what Paul says is part of our response to the Gospel. That's where the book title came from. It's actually the new King James version of Ephesians 5:16, where Paul says, see Then that you walk carefully, not as fools, but as wise. Redeeming the time because the days are in evil. Right. Did Tim Keller, commenting on that verse, once said, time stewardship is a biblical command. This is not a secular idea. Right. Paul says it's part of our response to the gospel. And so I'm just grateful that you are doing that and rolling up your sleeves and redeeming your time. Monique. Because the days are evil. Speaking of books, we wrap up every conversation. I love to know what our guests are reading. Like if we pulled open your Amazon card, smart order history.

Yeah.

What would we see you buying over and over and over again?

Well, your book is one. I've actually recommended it to a number of our school leaders who I know are of faith, who are not aware of your work. So they have, as principals, leading schools of thousands of students, redeeming their time is definitely one I would say. Recently I finished, so I try to my practices, I read a faith book. So like I do my regular practice of, you know, reading the Bible devotionals, those kind that's kind of foundational. But in addition to that, I'm always reading like a book around, you know, work leadership, something along that realm, and then a book on faith, like, in addition to like that. So I just finished reading Believing Bigger by my Sean, I think Evans Daniels, I think that's her name.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just finished reading that, and I just got in the mail Adam Grant's new book, Hidden Potential. I think the name of that. So those are two that I just finished. And then I have a kids book that I have on my desk that's like, takes two minutes to read. Yeah. But a staff member that's now on staff with us, when she interviewed, we were talking and she was asking me what my vision was and how I like to work and ideas. And I said I like to think like, there's no box. Right. And there's this children's book called Not a Box. And so I often, like, read that as just like a bringing me back to like, the childlike, you know, aspect of things. But also as we think in abundance, which at times when in the workplace we are contending with things that, you know, we're having to adjust here or whatever, but still maintaining that mindset of abundance. It gives me that kind of way to bring that back in a tangible way.

I love that so much. I love, you know, you have a killer kids book when grownups gift it to other grownups or read it to other grownups like that's the Holy Grail. That's what I strive for with my kids books and I like I love what do you do with an idea I think is in that vein is really good. And now I gotta check out Not a box. That's a great recommendation. Okay.

Yes. Yes.

All right, Monique, who would you most want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?

That's a good question. I would say that I would love to hear from the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Diamond. Yeah. And from a faith perspective, Sarah Jakes Rockford.

Yeah, it's a good answer. Okay, great. I like that a lot. What's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off and we're talking to a global audience of mere Christians across a variety of vocations? What do you want to leave them with?

I think always don't judge people by the chapter that you may see them on in their level of success. And to do not underestimate how the Lord can orchestrate people, circumstances and conditions for his will, but also to honor your desires of your heart. Both things can be true and I think that's important for people to remember. Never give up the belief in that.

I lied. I got one more question because I wrote down something earlier you said that I loved. You talk about seeing people in snippets. It's basically what you're hitting on right then, Right. What do you do to ensure that you're not seeing your team just in snippets, but you're really getting to know the story of their life? What does that look like?

Yeah, this is hard and it requires intention, especially because I work in a remote hybrid environment. It means getting to know people to the extent that they feel comfortable. Right. Because I think you also have to honor the fact that like yes, it's important to get to know folks from a holistic perspective, but some people are not going to feel comfortable like the first time you meet them or as they're getting to work alongside you, sharing their complete life. There are other people that will tell you that upon the first meeting. Right. And so I think providing the avenue for people to share and to feel seen. And I try to not be so busy. I don't always succeed at this. So I will name it something. I'm working on that. Even when micro moments where it's like, okay, somebody is taking off half a day for their child's birthday to at least the next time I see them Ask them how that went.

Right.

Even though I may not see we're not in an office like we used to be, so I may not see it's. It's not like it used to be for many of us, not all of us, because some people have been working remote and hybrid for a number of years where you would all return to the office and you could just walk by their door and there would be a natural set of conditions. So I say I'm working on this because it requires the shifting of a leader to have more intentionality around that because it could be two weeks before you encounter that person.

Yeah.

Again, so that's why I said I don't always succeed at it. But I'm working on becoming a little bit more mindful of that, because some people need that more than others, I personally don't need that as much as what others might need. But that goes back to the part of, like, as a leader, that's your job, to kind of be aware of that.

Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Dr. Perry Graves, I want to commend you for the terrific work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for your commitment to seeing beyond the snippets of people's stories, for your commitment to justice in our school systems, for boasting in your weakness for God's glory and the good of others. Hey, where's the best place for people to connect with you? Is it LinkedIn?

Yes. LinkedIn is a good place. I also just launched my new newsletter that we call Lights and Lessons. So I'm a subscriber. Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you. I look forward to your feedback. But that also was a nudge, too. Like, people were like, you need to share more. You need to share more. And so we talk about sharing the testimony. All of that is rooted in some level of story. Now, as a leader, sometimes, as I say on television, you have to modify the names of the circumstances. But all of it is rooted in seeds of truth and I hope can also be another avenue to serve him.

Yeah, I saw that pop up on my LinkedIn feed. I was super excited about it. So I'm subscribed to Lights and lessons on LinkedIn by Dr. Monique Perry Graves. You guys should subscribe to Dr. Perry Graves, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. I appreciate you.

Thank you so much. And thank you for all of your good work. And I look forward to continuing to follow you and benefit from your gifts as well.

I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Hey, if you did, do me a favor and go leave a review of the Mere Christians podcast wherever you're listening. And if you're listening on Spotify, reply to the question we got there. We read all those responses. I'd love to hear what you thought about this episode. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.