Dr. Susan Hillis (Epidemiologist)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

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Two reasons.

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Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as loan Officers, diesel mechanics and medical assistants. That's the question we explore every week.

And today I'm posing it to Dr. Susan Hillis. She's an epidemiologist who spent 30 plus years at the CDC and today she's the co chair of the global reference.

Group on children affected by COVID 19. Dr. Hillis is a world renowned scientist whose research has led to over 140 peer reviewed publications. Dr. Hillis and I recently sat down and had a terrific conversation about how.

God has used her position at the CDC to spearhead caring for more than 10 million orphans. We talked about the profound impact that.

A silent retreat had on Dr. Hillis life and work.

And we talked about how practically you.

And I can remind ourselves of the father's delight in us as we work. I think you guys are gonna love this conversation with Dr. Susan Hillis. Doctor Hillis, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thank you so much, Jordan.

Hey, so to satisfy government lawyers, I want to make clear for everybody on the podcast that you're speaking for yourself personally today, not on behalf of any agency. Is that right? You want to Clarify anything there, Dr. Hillis?

Sure, I'd be happy to, yes. I would just say my views, experiences, findings and conclusions are mine alone and they do not necessarily represent the views or official positions of any US government, bilateral or multilateral organization or academic institution that I work with.

You've got that down pat. Our listeners, I think just skipped ahead 30 seconds through that, but I'm. Got it. You nailed it. All right, Dr. Hillis, let's start here because I don't know that everybody understands what an epime, epidemiologist does. Tell us a little bit about the nature of this vocation.

Oh yeah, thank you. And I hadn't had that question in so long. Some people who are guessing think, oh my goodness, is it from epidermis? Is it something with the skin? And the answer is no, but it is from epidemics and epidemiologists. That's the etymology. And epidemiology is the study of the distribution and determinants of disease and health and threats in populations. Yeah.

And how long have you been doing this work?

I have been doing this work for 31 years. And what's amazing is it's definitely my vocation because I would do it if no one paid me to do it. And I think that's the thing. I actually did do it for a year when no one paid me. But I definitely feel like it's clearly God's calling and invitation and blessing to me to be able to serve in this way. And I'm so glad he didn't ask me to be an accountant, which my husband is, because I would not feel that way. It allowed everybody else to deal with the money. But I'm happy to deal with science and public health aspects.

So my wife is an accountant. And I'm glad that God did not bless me with those skills either. But he didn't bless me with the skills of science either. I am totally ignorant when it comes to the sciences. So I'm curious. You say this has always felt like a call in your life. Where was the seed of this like did at an early age, were you sure you wanted to be a doctor and specifically an epidemiologist? No.

I think that there's a kind of a story of we were on the mission field for a number of years early on in Columbia, South America. And we always had a sense of wanting to use our vocational skills to help contribute to societal transformation and also to be involved in evangelizing and sharing the gospel and discipling professionals that we naturally got to know through our work. And so from the very beginning, I taught at a university as a professor in South America in Columbia. And I realized that the thing that people most needed was to have an ability to determine the causes and consequences and opportunities to prevent the main causes of death and disability. And so I think my passion for doing that came from actually being on the mission field and with a master's in public health and seeing that if. If we could just get leaders in nations able to know how to do the research and solve their own health problems that they could make so much progress. So it probably came from that my science interest. Part of it actually also came because I grew up in a non Christian family where there was a lot on domestic violence, I would say. And I realized that people don't really know how to love each other unless God puts that love in their hearts. And and so I decided I wanted to. At that point, I was not a believer. And so, you know, in high school I just thought, I am never getting married because all people do is hurt each other. I'm going to. But I do want to make the world a better place. I love science, I love math, I love languages, I love writing. I'm going to do something that will let me use all four of those. And really epidemiology is what let me use all four of those. But then obviously I became a believer. And I'm still married to my husband 45 years later. Adore him and so that totally changed the trajectory of my life personally.

So I didn't realize before we got on the phone that you had spent time in the mission field. And I think a lot of people would hear this story and maybe you even heard this from some people when you formally left the quote unquote missions field to say, oh my gosh, what in the world, what are you talking about? Going and going and working as an epidemiologist instead of spending all of your time sharing the gospel with others. Talk a little bit more about that transition because I think a lot of times in the church today we have a tendency to elevate the Great Commission to the only commission at the neglect of a lot of other things Jesus called us to do, including heal the sick. Talk a little bit more about your journey here.

It was a surprise to me being on Mission Field that God literally, I felt like I had a Philip like experience. So my husband And I had two children, 1 and 2. And our 1 year old quit breathing in our home one night in a city where there was no medical care. And so there was an ambulance and we were able to emergently get two hours away from where we live to Cartagena, Colombia, and get a plane out. And once we got to the States into a hospital, our son was diagnosed and had very really serious heart defects. And we were going to need to live within about a 60 second drive from a tertiary care medical hospital. So it became clear we could not go back to the Latin American settings on the mission field. And in fact, there was no place in Latin America that was really safe enough for him from a hospital point of view. So we had to. And you know, that was 30 years ago. So we had to switch and like, figure out, okay, if we're going to be in the States instead of God has clearly picked us up and plopped us here in the States. States, you know, what are we passionate about? And at that point I was hoping and praying that God would, with time heal our son and we go back to the mission field. And so. But I knew, having served as a professor on the mission field and then very involved in the church and in discipling and, you know, doing evangelistic Bible studies with other professors that I worked with in our home who became really our closest friends. And a number of them came to faith as well. But I realized that I really had a passion for helping train others in identifying and solving their own health problems. So God opened a door for me to get a PhD in epidemiology at UNC full scholarship. So I was really excited. You know, as I said, I've always loved science, math, languages, and writing and, you know, you can do all of that with that. And then after that, CDC actually recruited me to come into their Epidemic Intelligence Service training program, which is kind of, I guess, their premier training program after I finished my PhD in epidemiology.

That's amazing. But for you, there was never this divide of, well, now that I'm not a missionary, I'm not really doing the Lord's work. Like you kind of always viewed this work in science as part of God's mission in the world.

It sounds like I did. And I would say, but in the beginning, it was not the change from being on the mission field to being in the government as much. It was the. As the change from being a Latin American environment, which when people are more important than things and plans, it seems a lot more consistent with the values of the gospel than living in an American culture where things and plans tend to be more important than people culturally. So I think I had a big culture shock. More than a change from a Christian sector to a governmental sector. I will say that one of the most respected directors ever of cdc, Bill Foege, is a believer, and he's quite in his 80s by now. And he kept switching back and forth from like being a director of the CDC to going to the mission field and being a director of the CDC to go into the mission field. And he finally, I heard him speak maybe two years ago someplace, and he was saying, he was talking a little bit about why he decided ultimately to day with the government. And he made a very insightful comment. And he said, in the government, you really have to love everybody. And that was so disappointing to me. But I understand to some degree what he meant. And he meant the church does not really behave as though we have to love everyone, even though it's what the Gospel teaches us. And I think what he was intimating is, you know, Christians so easily are known for what they're against and what of what they're for. And so much has been written about that. But I would say I have absolutely thrived being in the government and being invited to love, well, the people that I work with and receive love from them. So I, I think that it has been a real blessing and I would not change anything.

Yeah, you're alluding to something I wanted to ask you about. You were at the cdc. You, you, you left recently. How long were you at the CDC? 30 years.

Ish. Yes, I was there 30 years and I transitioned to Oxford University and to the State Department and PEPFAR in the last, like five months or so.

Yeah, I love it. So you're a faithful follower of Jesus. You spend 30 years working at the CDC at a time when many of your fellow Christians are telling each other to trust God and not science. This classic science versus faith divide.

What was that experience like for you.

Working at the cdc, where all of this rhetoric was kind of reaching an inflection point?

I guess I would say I had a wonderful experience as a believer at CDC. There are many people of deep faith at CDC, just like you're mentioning Dr. Collins. You may have him on soon. And so I. I guess I felt very respected and appreciated. And I'll. I'll say something else. When we were on the mission field years ago, the president of Princeton came and spoke at the language school that we went to in Costa Rica, before we went to Columbia, before he got up to speak. You know, anytime you speak someplace, they share a bio. And his bio was so extensive and just overwhelmingly impressive. And I kind of went from thinking, oh, that man's amazing, to thinking, he must be pretty arrogant. I can't believe he's sitting there and letting people say so much that's so flowery and about him. And he. He stands up and he's afterwards and he goes, you might be wondering whether all those things that that person just said about me are true. And I will say, yes, they're true. And then you might ask why I let people read it. And I will tell you, if it were up to me, I would love to be introduced as I was a beggar who found fresh bread in the word and presence of Jesus. And I would love to share what I have found with you.

Wow.

And he said, but if I stood up, and they stood up and said that probably not many of you would want to listen to me. And certainly none of the non believers that I love and work with would want to listen to me. And he said, I just really urge you to aim for excellence and impact in whatever area of service the Lord invites you into. And know that because people respect what you do and your character, they will begin to want to know more about what you believe. And I think that is, that has been just so fully true for me. And I guess so much of what being a believer for me has meant at CDC is sharing what is grabbing my heart and my mind to complement the excellence of work and service. Sharing what is grabbing my heart and mind that I feel like is from God. Even though I might not say that from them in the beginning. So let me give you an example of the pandemic, what just happened. Two months into the pandemic I get a call from a pastor in Zambia because I actually have been on a long term secondment to PEPFAR since 2017, even my last like four or five years at CDC. But I was pulled back in to be deployed onto Covid the last two years. But I received this call from a pastor that I'm friends with and that I knew from my PEPFAR service and work. And over a crackling zoom line he says, susan, I am so scared. If Covid comes here and takes out the grannies in Sahimbia, we will not have anybody left to take care of all these orphans. We have got so many AIDS orphans still and their parents are dead. I just don't know what we would do. And I would lay in bed at night thinking about, oh my goodness, like we have got to model this, we've got publish it, we've got to create the big, we've got to produce the big number. And I could see like what we would need to do to do that. But I realized I know that the people in the world that I could pull into collaborating with me and we could answer this question and publish it and get the number out to the world. And so I began to ask people, and certainly as I began to ask people, I would tell the story about the pastor who called me, who's worried and I felt worried. And when I think everyone in their heart of hearts feels this longing for compassion and to be part of compassion and part of purpose and impact. So the fact that it's the question of one pastor in a country that is driving so much work, I mean now we just put a published another paper and report last week. We have now 10.5 million children orphaned by the pandemic that we have described. The Lord has let me be the first author of seven period publications and or reports on this topic in the past year with a team that's like the head of child development at Harvard, the head of orphan, you know, orphans and vulnerable children at usaid. Other is in the leadership at cdc, one of the lead economists at the World bank, the head of violence prevention for a World Health Organization and other colleagues now that I'm at Oxford from Oxford University and Imperial College and University College of London and as I was putting together the co authorship team, I realized we have got to have an international Catholic organization and Protestant evangelical organization that feels God has called them to care about the orphans around the world because it's not going to help at all if we get all these big numbers. But we don't have anybody on our authorship and expert reference group team that can immediately get help to the kids who most need it. Yeah.

Amen. And when you're excellent at your craft and you earn the respect, you win the respect, as Paul says, of outsiders. Man, this is what drives me so crazy about anyone who would call work in the government, work in the cdc, work outside the church, quote, unquote, secular work. Right?

I.

As you're telling the story, I'm thinking of Obadiah, who was a government official, right, placed there by God and was used by God to protect the prophets, right? To hide these hundred or so prophets away from this ruthless king. And, and here God's placed you, Dr. Hillis, in this government agency to see these problems and to serve these orphans. That's not secular work. You're doing it with God and for his purposes. It's just a beautiful testimony of that, of that truth.

There are many leaders in the scriptures that were involved, either directly or indirectly, in serving with or negotiating with the government. Moses and Aaron and Pharaoh, you know, Daniel and King Joseph and the Pharaoh, David becoming the king, Esther influencing the king. So, you know, it's. You can't really pay attention to the scriptures and let that be wasted on you. Nor can you pay attention to one of the names of Jesus being king and believe that there's anything lower or less than about that. So I don't feel that at all. I want to say something else, though, about something that's really been helpful to me. I just have a habit to go and take some time with solitude for a couple days every other year or so with just an intent to listen to God and seek him. And there's a monastery about 30 minutes away from us here in Atlanta that my husband and I go to sometimes for that purpose. And so I'd gone to the monastery years ago. I was walking, there was a monk there, and he goes, you, you come here quickly. I've taken a vow of solitude, but God has me here to pray for you. And I thought, oh, my goodness, this is weird. I mean, that's what I really thought. But then what do you do? You know, I mean, I felt like, I guess I shouldn't say no. So I followed him. He goes, sit down, sit down. I have to go preach vespers in five minutes. Yeah. So I do. And he. He lays his hands on my shoulders and he goes, don't feel my hands on you, but feel the hands of the Lord Jesus on you. Don't hear my voice to you. Hear the voice of the Lord Jesus to you. I have called you to be an instrument of my love in the lives of many children who have been abandoned. Always lay hands on them and bless them in Jesus name. So then he said amen and he goes, I'm going to vespers. I needed to tell you that so and pray for you. So I'm weeping because it was right after we had adopted our first two kids and I realized oh my goodness, this is much bigger God than your calling, than just adopting two children. And so as like the COVID situation came up and I get the call from my friend Remy in Zambia. This is what I think is so for me, so I think unbelievably and almost inexpressibly reassuring and I think inspiring. And that is God has placed me to work on what he cares about within a government or academic. It started at when I was deployed at cdc. You know, I first began leading that Covid work there with full recognition by CDC that these second order impacts on children are really serious from a public health and increased risk of long term health problems really their whole lifelong from that point of view. And then as I transitioned over to Oxford, that's what I'm continuing to work on and having that within the framework of oh, this is just part of God's call, you know, his call was to my family to love children and see God turn them from being orphaned into turning them to be sons and daughters who know the Lord themselves, number one. Also serving within the government sphere and contributing to more and more people recognizing and understanding the magnitude and urgency and the problem, but also the hope that is possible because we actually know the solutions that we have the science base that shows what works to really help them. And then not only that, but God is letting me. I provide scientific technical assistance to a global movement called World Without Orphans to try to ensure that the Christian groups are aware of the best practices when they're moving forward to try to ensure vulnerable children and orphans are in safe and loving families and not in institutions and those families have the help they need. So God spoke to me so clearly and I probably only have time to go over that one. There are a couple others. But God spoke to me so clearly and I would say even in those other ways, just confirming what that first monastery experience was probably every four to five years or so. When I got that call from Remy, I thought, oh, this is Obvious. This is part of God's call for my life. And I believe he has placed me in the position to do something about it and to be his voice to too many people who together can do a lot about it around the world.

Yeah, but if you hadn't taken that time for quiet solitude years before that call from Remy, you may not have connected those dots. Maybe you would have, maybe not. Though I think it sounds like that, that blessing, that, that word from that monk is kind of rolling around your head for obvious reasons. You know, when that call comes through at the cdc, how often do you make that time for solitude to just be thinking about and praying about your family and your work?

Oh, I. I get up early and I have time with the Lord, probably an hour every morning in my quiet time, just journaling, reading the scriptures, having a sense of listening to the Lord. And I would say probably once every year or two, I will have a dedicated day or two only for the purpose of hearing from God and listening to Him. You know, every January, probably the beginning of January, I will definitely take two, half a days, if not a whole day to ask God, like, can you show me what's your agenda for the coming year? Because you know, often God's agenda is really not our agenda.

Amen.

So I would say it's a life giving habit and source of great joy and reassurance to me and what God tends to do. You know, when God told, I think it was Ezekiel or Jeremiah, whoever it was, like, take this waistband, bury it, dig it up, say to Israel, I have made you to be like this waistband that clings to me, but you've been unwilling. There was a series of progressive instructions and I would say since those years ago, God has only, I think, made more clear his progressive revelation to me of what his invitation to me is through the daily time, yearly time, the every January time. So I would say the centrality of me wanting to hear God's voice probably undergirds most things. I do.

Yeah, no, I love that I talk about this in one of my books. This idea of dissenting from the kingdom of noise so that we can think and be creative, but most importantly, to hear the voice of God, right. And where he's calling us to focus our time and attention in our lives and work. Dr. Hillis, you have.

I've.

I've been thinking a lot about not, not a morbid way, I don't think, but thinking a lot about death lately and how meditating on death shapes our work. You've stared death in the Face more than most people I know with the tragic loss of your son, with obviously being at the CDC during this unbelievable pandemic over the last couple years. How do you think that dwelling on death has shaped the world work you do as an epidemiologist? In what ways has it influenced your vocation?

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I would say I do not dwell on death. I dwell on hope. And I learn a lot from faith leaders around the world that I connect with, often through, you know, virtually through regular calls, either with, well, without orphans or with. I'm quite involved with pepfar with a Faith and Communities initiative and a New Foundations of Hope webinar series that we started two years ago when the pandemic started. And I think that one of the things that we are uniquely invited to carry with us is, is hope. And I think I. I see death as like a dot in eternity.

Yes, Amen.

More than I see it as the unfortunate, tragic end of full life. Death in some ways is a crucifixion. You know, it's a loss of life and it is. There is no resurrection without crucifixion. And for every crucifixion there is a resurrection. So you might, if you change it into your death analogy. There is no sense of hope without this sense of loss. And for every sense of loss, there is a renewed and a greater sense of hope. That's how I think of it.

That's really, really well said. When you die, Dr. Hillis, if we can go, we go further down this path. Chances are good that viruses are still going to be ravaging this world. What truths in scripture give you hope in the face of that sobering reality as you approach the work every day, knowing that all of us are going to die with unfinished symphonies?

Yeah, probably Romans 8 about nothing can separate us from the love of God. Not, not life nor death, nor powers nor principalities, nothing present nor nothing to come. Cause the thing that matters most, we cannot lose and we will only get more of.

I love that on a day to day level. How is the gospel shaping how you do the work today?

Oh man, I love this question. I would say that love as the central, you know, all the commandments are summed up into love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. And I think when you're in like a high demand work environment, it is very easy to slip into the reverse. I think also the gospel drives me to prayer and to availability because often what we have on our phones is our schedule and in our computers as our schedule, it may really not be God's agenda for us for that hour or half hour per day. So I, I think the Gospel shapes my having a, like a, like an open hand about the agenda and not being so driven by it. I think it gives me courage because if there's something I feel clear that God is leading me forward to do, then it doesn't really matter to me very much what people think. I care a lot more about what God thinks of me. And then the other thing is often if God is leading you, if you're an ideas person and God's leading you to try to accomplish something big like call the world to live. 10.5 million orphans. It could be easy to be overwhelmed, but I feel very confident that there's only one miracle. And off word gospels and it's the five feeding of the 5,000. And the lesson is the same no matter which version you look at. And that is Jesus could not care squat about those 5,000 people. What they didn't ask in terms of food to feed them. He was so excited about what they did have. And he just said, bring it to me and let me multiply it as you go. So especially being a mother of 11 kids and working full time and having my fingers in a number of things, I just feel very comfortable moving forward with my five loaves and two fishes and not getting bent out of shape about them not being enough. Because I have experienced repeatedly the Lord's multiplication.

And I bet, especially in the context of the work you're doing now in tackling this massive orphan crisis, calm in the face of that massive obstacle has got to preach a pretty, pretty powerful sermon to those watching you do this work. Right?

Well, I'm, I'm not sure. I mean, I don't really ever think about that. I just think about there's a lot that we can do together and we can invite more and more people to join us, which is basically, I guess, the multiplication part. I, I'm not really. Yeah. Aware of. I don't think about what other people might think. I, I just think about, I see the five loaves and two fishes I have and I see the ten loves that person over there has. We need them. Will you come join us?

It's beautiful. You've reached what Tim Keller calls the freedom of self forgetfulness. How do you cultivate a reminder of that, not just in that instance in the D.C. hotel room, but on a regular basis? How do you remind yourself that the Father is well pleased with You.

It's a great question, and I'm really glad you asked it. There's a book called Strengthening Yourself in the Lord by Bill Johnson, and I read it years ago. And he wrote in there transparently about, you know, him finding himself in circumstances in which the emotions connected with the cares of life seemed bigger in his experience than the promises of God for those events or experiences of life. And he had the habit of withdrawing. And he said he carried around with him, you know, this little packet of little cards of either verses God had given him or promises God had given him. And he would just look at those again to try to get refocused on the truth and reality of the Scriptures and of who God is and what he's promised. I thought, well, I'm not going to carry cards around with me. But I do have the habit of journaling. And I could just start in the mornings every day, like asking God, show me a verse or something that you want to impress on me for today. And so I'd write it down. And in the early days when I was doing that, maybe like 15 years or 20 years ago, I would. Everybody still carry briefcases, and I still went to my office all the time, and I would just put my journal in my briefcase. And if in the middle of a workday I would be feeling that I would pull it out and look at what God had given me that morning and it really. And just pray about it and think, lord, this is so helpful. And so generally it would pull me back into a more healthy sense of reality whereby I think the realities of heaven seemed more real in my experience than the realities of earth. If I was not. If that did. Was not adequate, I would often text or call a friend and say, please pray for me. I'm really upset about such and such. I'm struggling to believe God is bigger than these circumstances or whatever. So I think that really helped me. And then what's fascinating is I have done that for so many years now. I don't usually have to go back and open my journal to remember. I mean, usually it's just there. So, like this morning I read 10 and, you know, Jesus was focusing on with me on Jesus is the good Shepherd, God's son, does God's work and through living God's life. And so if that's kind of pasted on the whiteboard of my mind as I start the day and it's just kind of sitting there during the day, I feel like the Lord helps me access it.

Yeah, that's really good. That's really encouraging, a super practical thing for listeners to take away from this episode. Hey, Dr. Hill has three questions. We wrap up every conversation with number one, in general, which books do you find recommending or gifting to others the most frequently?

Yeah, I would say there's a book written, I think, in 1976 by Peter Lord called Hearing God. And I have given that book away so many times because I find that a lot of times believers either say people don't hear from God anymore, and when they say that, I don't know what they do with John 10 or kind of go on a deep end. It's like I heard God say, go to McDonald's instead of Hardee's. And you think that's pretty crazy. Why would God care about that? And I just felt like it was such a balance treatment, balanced and inspirational treatment of the topic. And it really has helped me ever since. And so I give that away a lot. And then this other one, especially in the middle of so often you're wanting to give someone a book who's in the middle of a crisis like situation. And that Red Sea Rules book is so accessible. And I thought I. That's definitely the one I give away the most. I'm not giving away now, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Kilmer, but I'm recommending it and I'm reading Resilience by Eldridge and really liking that.

That's good. Those are great recommendations. Dr. Hillis, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences their work?

Okay, so this is going to surprise you, and you have never heard of this person and you might even not think I'm divorced. I tell you, I promise you I'm answering your question.

Yeah.

So again, because I work globally, I know a number of Christian leaders around the world from different countries and especially from Africa. And so I was just at the Global AIDS Conference in Montreal, I guess, last month and had some great conversations with a Ugandan bishop who lives in Kampala. So because you do this, you know, virtually, you know, you could certainly interview him. Bishop Cannon Gideon, he is 64 years old. He just turned 64. And he's been living 32 years with HIV and 32 years without HIV. And so when I saw him, I'm so excited. I'm getting ready to have my birthday. I'm going to have as long living with HIV as I've had living without hiv. And you know, his wife, when he first contracted hiv, really encouraged him to be transparent and tell people Because God was going to use him and his experience to bring grace to Africa in this area. And he is so such a common name in a lot of the African countries hardest hit by hiv. But I think the thing I'm really loving about him is, you know, there's a lot of discomfort in Christian communities about loving everyone and loving everyone equally and everybody well. And so he has been developing a theology of that. And he says, and this is his one sentence, no matter who or what you consider yourself to be or not to be, and no matter who or what I consider myself to be or not to be, we are morally obligated, theologically required, and spiritually invited to love everyone with all our hearts. So to love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind, and to love everyone as much as we love ourselves. And so, you know, he basically says any other option is either self centeredness or self righteousness. He is so articulate when he talks about these things, and he's beginning to just have these open dialogues. And he's inviting leaders of Uganda to come sit on all sides of this fence to come sit and talk with each other. And I believe he's going to bring a new kind of revelation and love among all groups that we have not seen in many years. So I would, I would invite, encourage you to invite Bishop Canon Gideon.

That's not crazy at all. It's a great answer. I may be. I may be shooting you an email asking for the introduction. All right, Dr. Hill's last question. What's one thing from our conversation today you want to reiterate to this audience of mere Christians before we sign off?

Okay, I would love. There's actually two things I want to most reiterate. One is wonderful. Be most known for your excellence in love. First. And second, Most known for your excellence in work. This is the second thing I would say. Having worked in the government for 20, for 30 years, I saw so many believers that I would say hid their light under a bushel. And I might get glimpse, you know, they might see that I was a Christian because I was pretty comfortable not hiding it and certainly not being obnoxious about it, but just in the way I talked about, oh, my goodness, this had to be from God. This friend of mine called me and asked me this, and I know how to help him about the orphans, but I think. So they would maybe like, be honest with me, but I would not see anybody else much knowing that they were Christians. So I would say Jesus when he talks about not hiding our light in a bushel, he really does talk about letting it shine at home and in your job and in the world.

Amen.

I would just invite people that one of the easiest ways to do that is through your testimonies of things you need prayer for.

Yes.

Or things that God has answered prayer about.

That's a great, great encouragement and it's part of the evidence that we should be leaving with those that we work with that we are indeed an apprentice of King Jesus. Yeah, because they don't know that we're missing a massive opportunity to shine that light. Dr. Hillis, you may have not heard this enough from fellow believers these past few years, but I want to shout it from the rooftops. Thank you for the extraordinary work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, partnering with Jesus to restore and renew creation in anticipation, of course, of his future work to make everything new. Thank you for your focus on pure and undefiled religion and serving orphans really well see James 1 and for your reminder that God chooses often to do his work in this world through faithful followers of Christ, including you, Dr. Hilda. So thank you so much for the work you're doing and thank you for joining us on the podcast today.

Oh sure. Thanks so much Jordan, and really great blessings to everyone out there. And thanks to everyone for the service that you're rendering as well.

I loved that episode. I hope you guys did too. What a great hero to point my girls to as they get older.

Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians.

Podcast, do me a favor and leave a review of the show on Apple Spotify wherever you listen to the podcast.

Thank you guys so much for tuning in.

I'll see you next week.

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