Duane Blasdel (Camp Director at Mapleridge Ranch)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week, I host a conversation with a Christ follower who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We're talking about their path to mastery. We're talking about their daily habits and routines and how their faith influences their work. Today you're going to hear from my dear friend, Dwayne Blaisdell. He's the camp director of Maple Ridge Ranch, this amazing summer camp in upstate New York. Duane's been in that role for about seven years or so now. Before that, Duane spent years as a student pastor at churches in Tampa and Nashville. I've known Duane for a long time. I've seen him grow to become a true leader, masterful leader. And he's one of the biggest fans of the Call to Mastery, which made this conversation flow really, really nicely. This is a terrific episode. Dwayne and I talked about what he did to increase their camper retention rate from 40% when he started to 80% where it's at today. We talked about why boards of advisors and directors are so valuable as you try to master your craft and how you can easily build one regardless of the size of your organization. And Duane also shared incredibly powerful testimony of seeing God do immeasurably more than he could have imagined or even prayed for in his work. You guys are going to love my friend, Dwayne Blaisdell. Please enjoy this episode. Dwayne Blaisdell, longtime listener, first time caller. Thanks for doing this, man.

You're welcome, man. I appreciate the honor. I'm honored to be asked to do it. And I'm excited to talk a little bit today.

By the way, I was trying to remember prior to this, how long have we been hanging out together? When do we start hanging out?

Yeah, so like, I've always known of Jordan Rayner even since when you're in high school, but we actually started hanging out in 2013. We were Twitter friends and I reached out to you right after I moved to Maple Ridge and I messaged you via Twitter direct message. And I guess I Slid into it is what they call it, the kids call it these days. And you responded to an invite and we met at the Oxford Exchange was really the official time we Met was in 2013 at the Oxford Exchange.

I think I just published Startup Stories.

I was like, no, you were working on it. You were working on it. Yeah. And then you.

Which you actually told me recently. You just read that, like, recently, which blew my freaking mind because I forgot all about that book.

Honestly. Not because I'm on your podcast, I would say this, but, like, I've literally told other people about it. It's one of my favorite books. It was so encouraging for me when I first got started at the ranch because, like, I was at that. Beginning that startup phase a little bit. It was awesome. Yeah, dude. That one and the other one. What's the one about the three things, like the standout or whatever, Stand out.

My first pamphlet. So by the way, people are listening to this, like, what the heck are these guys talking about? I've never heard of these books. So before called To Create, which I traditionally published. And then of course, Master of one, I self published two books. One of them was called Startup Stories, kind of about our experience running CitizenVestor and lessons learned from that. And then this other one that's basically a pamphlet called Standout. It is basically me being a crotchety old man telling, you know, kids to, like, check their email and be excellent at work. Work. And I don't even know if those books are still for sale. I got to check that.

If anyone wants one, they can email me and I'll send them my copy. As long as they send it back.

I guess that's right. We met up right as you were taking over Maple Ridge as camp director. So before we go any further, tell us a little bit about Maple Ridge. What makes this summer camp unique? Dwayne?

I like to describe it as we're an old school, traditional resident summer camp, you know, where kids come in on Sunday, leave on Saturday. I think one of the unique things about Maple Ridge is as culture is changing and we're so connected via, like, digital, like computers and texting and phones and all the different stuff that we have in social media, that there's something unique about getting away from all those distractions. And if you think about it, there's not a lot of those opportunities for us, especially kids, to experience that. So one of the unique things about our camp, one, obviously we're Christian. We're all about making much of Jesus, and we want to see kids live life to the fullest. But the other one is we really love that they can get disconnected. So there's no electronics, no social media, no cell phones in camp. And that goes all the way up to the staff. And so that part is really unique. And that's really one of the co things that we've seen our campers love so much about going to camp now.

So they show up and they literally have to like, check their phones in.

Well, they don't even bring them. And if they do bring them, yeah, they gotta put them in chief's office. So. Pretty awesome.

So I never went to summer camp. What do you do at summer camp?

So obviously there's all kinds of different types of camps, right? There's sports camps, there's day camps. You know, what we do at Maple Ridge is we are like that traditional thing where, like, it's a sleep away camp. A couple of the fun things we do, kids will pick skills that they want to try our activities they want to do. And they'll do those every single day. So you could everything from paintball rivalry, archery, horses climbing, tower, to how to learn to build a one match fire, to taking an eno setting up in the woods and hanging out with your friends in camp. But what's cool about our camp is kids come from all over the place. So we're not a church camp. We're basically for anyone ages 7 to 17. So, like when your daughters get older, send them to camp, you know, where they can be disconnected. And they'll meet people from all over the country, all over the world. Right. And they'll experience things they don't get to do at home anymore. Right. Like things that I did growing up kids don't get to do. So like every kid goes on a camp out on Wednesday night, which is awesome. They cook their dinner over a fire on Wednesday night out in the woods. They cook their breakfast Thursday morning in the woods. They get to hear the sounds of like the bullfrogs and maybe the coyotes, you know, and. But they just experience that. And then, you know, obviously we have worship and we do crazy big games and we have a huge dance party we do every Tuesday night. We have a lot of traditional things, which is what really is unique about camp. And I think if you never experienced camp like yourself, a lot of times you kind of think, well, that's kind of weird. But once you experience it kind of gets in your blood. And those traditional things kind of draw people back. That's why we've seen our return rate go from about 40% to over 80%.

That's nuts. I want to come back to that in a minute, but let's back up a little bit. So you were in youth pastoral ministry right before taking over the camp. What led you to make that transition?

I grew up at this camp, so as a kid, my dad was the director there for 34 years. I was a year old, and my dad became the director. So that's all I ever knew. I went to Liberty, got my undergrad in student ministry because I didn't know there was a camp degrees back in the 90s available to you. And so I was there, did that, and I was planning on becoming a camp director. That was always my, like, desire or working at a camp. And then God just kind of redirected through some relationships to an opportunity to intern at Ottawa Baptist Church in Tampa after my senior year. And I ended up falling in love with that. I ended up doing student ministry there for eight years. And it was really cool because I really began to have a greater sense of, like, how awesome the big C church is and how important that is connected to camp. I think growing up, I really put camp above church, you know, as far as, like, value. And being a part of the student ministry for 13 years really strengthened my love for the church and realizing that, no, what we do at the camp complements the church, doesn't supplant the church. So after about my year eight in student ministry, I was like, now camp's not going to happen. I'm just going to be student pastor, associate pastor of a church someday. But, yeah, and then God just kind of redirected. So it's been really cool.

You started your career being like, oh, man, I want to be my dad. I want to be a camp director. Then you get into pastoral ministry. You're like, I love this. And then eventually you basically, you take over for your dad. Right. At the same camp at Maple Ridge. We're going to go a little deep here in our friendship way, but I'm always curious about fathers and sons, especially in the relationship of, like, the family business. Right. So my dad, who's probably listening to this episode right now, so I got to be careful here, runs a family business and has wanted me to be a part of it and run it for a long time, and that just hasn't been where I feel the Lord has been calling me in my career. Did the fact that the camp was the family business cause you to run towards or away from that opportunity?

So I think initially, when I was a kid or like, maybe in college, man, I'd be kind. I always saw the potential, like, what camp could be at the ranch, you know, is what we call it. And so I thought I'd go there, but I didn't know that was the thing. And once I got into student ministry, I really just did not see myself going back to the camp. Now, the problem was, was that every time we go on vacation, where does vac vacation? You go back to see your family, you know, in upstate New York. So every time I would go back, every year, I would just get this drawback. Man, this could be awesome. This could be cool. What if this happened? I remember in 2006, God just kind of really opened my eyes. Admin Suit Mission, now seven years. And opened my eyes to the idea of being the director. And at the time, my kids were like, four, five, three. I remember saying to my dad, I was like, hey, I. If there was ever a time where you'd retire, I would. At least I may consider the idea of you throwing my name in the hat. That kind of went away. Like, he was talking about never retiring. And I knew that relationship. I couldn't really. I knew that for the love of my father, and he knew for the love of me that we couldn't work together. And I don't know. You know, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but, like, I knew we couldn't work together, but I knew I love carrying on the legacy, and I'd love to see the camp become. That was the draw. But then it kind of died. Like, I ended up moving to Nashville in 2007 instead of going to work at Judson Baptist, you know, a much smaller church and where I was at and didn't really understand why God drew us there, but just kind of felt like it was the right thing. But then in 2012, when my father announced he was going to be leaving, it was as if, like, God had opened the floodgates. I had never been given a clear vision or a passion or excitement about something that I shouldn't have been that excited about, quite honestly, knowing what I was about to step into or didn't know what I was about to step into. I guess because you didn't step into.

The easiest of situations. I mean, the camp had been around for a long time, but there were lots of room for improvement. So I've always looked to you as a masterful leader, and that's really born out of your just tremendous experience at Maple Ridge. I mean, you mentioned the stat before. I think it's the most important one in a business like yours. You guys are a non profit, but going from 40% retention rate to 80% retention rate is insane. What do you think really led to that? Increased in customer camper satisfaction and increase in retention?

Yeah, so I think when I began to see like what the camp could be, they were doing everything under the sun, you know, it was kind of like a country, but, you know, the old country buffet mentality, let's do everything, you know. And I just saw that like, I guess to say, like with Jim Collins, I think that's the name. Right? Good to great. What's the one thing we could do well and be known for? And for me, the passion and excitement was summer camp. That actually. So we laid that out. I was like, what if we became just a summer camp?

You guys were doing more than that at that point. I didn't realize that.

Yeah, I mean, the camp was doing Special Olympic riding. They were doing family reunions, Girl Scout groups would come, hayrides for churches, ladies retreats, Father son retreats. They were going 365 days a year. You know, unfortunately, this wasn't doing very well at it. Like it was doing okay, but it wasn't growing. And at the time, the only staff member was me. So I laid out, I was like, if we become a camp, like if I come, we gotta be a summer camp and do it just that, you know. And oh, by the way, we were working farm too, because we had 25 horses as well. So. So I think that was probably the biggest key was know, okay, what is the one thing we're going to do? And do it really, really well. And then the other thing that I thought was the key initially was our facilities are okay, they're not great, our programs are okay, they're not great. The food is okay, but not great. But the one thing is if we can have the best staff and that customer relationship experience, that personal connection, if we have that and we bring the best staff in, then that's all that matters. Because if a camper has an okay food program and facility experience, but they have a great staff member, a counselor, they're going to keep coming back. And that's what we focus on from the beginning. I spent 90% of my time trying to hire the best staff.

I love the intense focus. I mean, listen, I just wrote a book called Master One and focus in our Careers. Obviously, I'm a big believer of it. Within organizations, it's a lot easier to identify what that core competency is. What you as an organization can be disproportionately good at. It's another thing when you're coming into an existing organization and killing things, right? And saying, okay, we've been doing this for 20 years, we're not doing it anymore, right, and here's why. And this is all we're doing. What lessons did you learn from that about, like, how to do that effectively?

There's definitely multiple approaches to it. You know, especially growing up, like, you know, not being in the church ministry world, like I'd always learned, okay, if a new pastor comes into a church, you know, you take the first year just to get to know the people, love on the people. And so that's definitely a really incredible approach. If the organization is healthy, you know, and is going in the right direction, you feel like that culture is, you know, pretty stable. I just realized that we had to kind of rip the band aid off at the beginning, you know, and so that was the hardest part, was just saying, okay, we're gonna have to cut stuff. And being the guy to make the cut, that really made me stronger of a leader, I guess, having to make those decisions. And oh, by the way, it's your parents that you took over for. But I think once we just kept the vision very, very clear, we kept saying it over and over and over again, hey, we're all about seeing kids lives change for eternity. Make that the main thing. And if we're doing that, all these other decisions will make sense down the road. And it was about year four or five when I think people began to realize, oh, wait, I get it now.

You know, you got to say it that many times as the leader of any organization. One, you've got to get crystal clear on what the core of the organization is. And you have to say it so much that people can just recite it verbatim all the time, right? Like that's how long it takes for people to actually get it. You mentioned staffing, hiring people, interviewing people. That process, it's one of the core strengths you've got to have to be successful as a leader of any organization. You guys have done that really well. You've gotten really good at hiring camp staff, which I got to imagine is not the easiest staff to hire. You're hiring like 18 year olds, 19 year olds. So like, what have you learned through that process of how to do that?

Well, obviously for us, we're not a huge camp, but we're still hiring between 30 and 50 college age kids ages 18 to 24. And we're not just doing it once. Like, we're doing it every single year. So I think for me, it's all about relationships. And so our core was, instead of just going and setting up at every single school that we known demand and setting up a booth and just drawing people from the streets, you know, which a lot of people have to do. A lot of camps do if they're. Especially if they're really large. I really leveraged our relationships, like those that were student pastors, those that were college pastors, those that I knew, hey, do you know someone that love Jesus, love kids, and love having fun? I could teach them everything else if they have those three things, and then let's do that. And then, obviously, the interview process is huge. And, like. And I'll be honest, I didn't create my interview questions. I ended up asking camp much farther down the road than us. I said, hey, I asked my friends at Camp Ridgecrest for boys, my real good friend Phil Barry, I said, hey, do you have a interview format I could use? And they said, absolutely. And I've been using that now for seven years.

What's the number one thing you're looking for in interviews with camp staffers? Like, what's the number one quality you're looking for?

I mean, I think confidence, but then also for us is like, man, that their walk with the Lord is very evident in everything that they're doing, you know? And if you think about it, if you're a college kid and you're living for Jesus and you're sold out and you're committed to college ministries on a public university, you're different, right? I mean, you're definitely living it out. And that's been. Some of our best counselors are those that are plugged into campus ministries at the larger universities around the country, you know, and they want to give up their summer to serve. And if they have a servant's heart, too. The second thing.

Yeah, There might not be a Maple Ridge camp this summer. Right. We're in the middle of this coronavirus crisis. This is about as big of a crisis as you can deal with as the leader of a summer camp. I'd love to ask you this question in a year when you get some hindsight. But, like, right now, what leadership lessons are you learning in this crisis?

I think one, for me, personally, it's like, what is my idol? Like, a lot of times, I think maybe camp has become more of an idol for me than even the Lord at times. You know what I mean? And, like. Or work, you know, and I think for me, it's just been a huge reminder personally, like, okay, this isn't the most important thing, you know, in life. So that's just a personal thing I've learned. I think also as a leader, though, it's like, man, communication is key, like, still communicating on a regular basis. I haven't personally been pushing the envelope on like, let's get more kids signed up for camp or anything, but I'm trying to stick in front of our families, our staff, those that we've already hired and just said, hey, we, we're there for you, we're caring for you. Hey, how can we pray for you? For us, it's all about the relationships more than the actual experience of camp. And so let's just continue to be there for that. And that's what's been really neat is like, the families that I've been able to share and how we can pray for them and how we can encourage them even along the way. Yeah. So if you would ask me. Well, I think you did ask me last week. I was like, yeah, 100%. After having some conversations with just people, you know, bold prediction. I'm a hopeful yes. You know, even today, like Governor Cuomo said, like, he's trying to get things back online. The reality is you can't social distance at all at camp. Like, we sit at a picnic table to eat all of our meals in the dining hall. So it's like, how do you sit? You're rubbing elbows, literally, you know, so it's really just gonna be a matter of what the state says. We're gonna try to make it. If, you know, we have some contingency plans. I mean, I think for those kids. I mean, there's so many kids, so many staff are looking forward to it, that it's one thing they still have holding out that hasn't been canc yet. So I'm prayerfully hoping we do, but preparing as if we might not.

So you're one of the first nonprofit leaders on the podcast, and in your space, boards are required. I mean, legally in most nonprofits. Right. You have to have a board. So they're very commonplace in your world. Boards are pretty uncommon, though, for smaller for profit companies. Right. They don't have formal C class structures and boards of directors. But you and I were recently talking about how much value a board can provide and more broadly, just a community of people that you can go to to run things by as you're leading a venture nonprofit, whatever. Can you share your perspective on that?

Yeah, you Know, I think one of the keys to being a leader, obviously, if you're an entrepreneur, you have to be willing to do anything and everything and kind of know as much as possible. One of the things I learned from the beginning was like, okay, I'm not going to be master of every single thing. I have no idea how to do finance stuff. I'm not a lawyer. What does that look like for me? I've always kind of viewed it like, you know, it's a director led, board served, but there's also relationship there. And for me, there was two board members on the board at the time when I was interviewing with the camp, and they were high business, high finance, and driven that way. And that was the areas I wasn't comfortable with. And they really were the reason. They may not even realize it, but they were the reason I felt comfortable coming on board and stepping into the. The role as the director, because I felt like, okay, there are some people there, you know, they're kind of like the guardrails, you know, keep me in the straight and narrow, and they're a great resource. You know, we've had ups and downs as a board, you know, and we've had contentious discussions, you know, regarding different changes we've made over the last eight years. But it's been, like, really great to know I could pick up the phone and talk to a board member, you know, and just be able to get their opinion on stuff. And so that literally, for the last three weeks, we. I've been probably on the phone more with board members than anybody else, just because I'm trying to make sure we make the wisest decision. It just also allows you to broaden your network, also broaden the people you can reach when you can bring in different boards. We started out as a localized board initially because the camp was very localized in 2012, and now we have board members from five different states, you know, and we've been doing Zoom calls now as board meetings for five years, you.

Know, before it was cool, before Zoom took over the world. I love boards. I'm actually in the process right now within Jordan Rayner and company of forming a small advisory board for a couple different purposes. All the ones you just mentioned, other people's. One thing is not your one thing, but you need those voices in the conversation. But secondly, it provides accountability, provides feedback. I talk a lot about this in Master of One, right? Submitting yourself humbly to the mentorship of people who have done what you've done at greater scales or in different spheres. Et Cetera. So I'm curious if you have any advice. So maybe there's somebody out there listening right now is like, okay, I want to do an advisory board or whatever it is. How do you effectively recruit that board member? Like, what does that pitch look like for you? Like, are you guys aren't compensating your board, Are you.

No, there's no compensation for us currently. Not a ton of requirements to be on our board either. You know, there's different approaches to whether or not they need to be giving member and all that sort of stuff. But I just read a book last year called the Board Game. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's written by a headmaster of a Christian school, and then he was also like, on the board. It's just kind of a story form and it was really powerful. Like a bunch of our board members read it, and it's really just helping you understand the dynamics of the relationship between the board and the director. And especially if you're in a nonprofit, like a school or Christian school or an organization. Nonprofit, like me, that's parachurch. It was really helpful. But I think for us, I'm always looking for people that are going to take us where we want to go. So one of the reasons that I felt God calling us from Ottawa Baptist Church in 2007 to Judson Baptist Church in Nashville was, you know, we went from a church of 6,500 active members on a Sunday to a church of 500. You student pastors don't do that. Like, we go the opposite way. We go up the ladder. I went down, you know, but one of the reasons why I was drawn to that church was that Pastor Gene had been a pastor of a, quote unquote, a megachurch. And he really believed and was excited about this church that he just became to be the pastor of. And he wanted to see them grow. And so he brought on staff members that already been where they wanted to go. And so that's kind of the same approach. We as a board have kind of morphed. Just the last month, one of our new chairman had said, you know, we've been operating as a board of a 350 to 400,000 a year budget, but we need to start operating like a $3 million a year budget board, you know, and so we've been picking out people that love Jesus, understand our mission, but know where we want to go to help us get to that next level. And I'm realizing that the weaknesses I have or the inefficiencies I have, I need those type of people around me to take me to that because I've never been there. And so I think that's the really, the key is really prank. Okay, who are people that you trust that you know have the best interest for the organization and for you and can they take us where we want to go?

I mean, you really want people who have been three steps ahead of you. By the way, I want to make sure our listeners understand something. You know, Dwayne's running a non profit where boards are required. You can build a board for your small business. I've done this many times before. I ask people, you know, a group of five or so people to serve an advisory board, sit on a quarterly phone call for an hour. And I've done that without compensation, but I've also done it with compensation. Right. Giving them a very, very small percentage of profit when they're standing in a long line for coffee to be motivated to spend a couple of minutes of their incredibly valuable time thinking about you and where you want to take your business for the glory of God and the good of others. So you listen to the show. You know, we talk a lot about routines and habits. When you're at camp, I'm really curious what your day looks like for the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. What does a day at camp look like for chief?

It's a little different than the rest of my 10 months out of the year. I typically get up about 6am and I know that if I don't get up, have a shower and have a quiet time, it's not going to happen the rest of the day. And so the main house is called the Kimberly House and it's where some of the staff stays. Where I stay. I always make sure I go on the front porch, which is kind of the back porch of the house. And I force myself to sit there till 7:45 because even at that point kids are up and they're meeting at the flagpole and stuff's happening in the kitchen and all that getting ready for camp. I have a program meeting at 7:45 in the morning and then from that we just go all the way through the day. Three out of the seven nights or even more, we'll have a campfire next to the house for like the camp speaker and for some of the program staff. And that usually usually happens around 10:30 at night and I usually go to bed around midnight. So that's eight weeks straight. And that's every Night, I sleep pretty hard. Middle of August.

You're in an interesting role where when you're on site at camp, you actually don't do deep work, right? Because like your job is to be responsive to your people, right. And to be there for your team. But when you're home, right, the other 10 months of the year where you're recruiting staff, you're, you know, fundraising, whatever, I'm assuming you are trying to get deep work done, right. Do your habits change pretty significantly?

Yeah, so. And in fact, those habits have changed significantly over the last four or five years. And really in the last two years, what I've done now I'm pretty excited to get back to it once this coronavirus is over, the quarantine's over is, you know, I have a cowork space I rent out just to go to, to get out of the house because I don't work as efficiently at home. And I've been doing this thing, I've used the traffic as like my deadline to get up and get out of the door. You know, it's kind of like my forced meeting. And so I've been getting down to Bay three. You know, Armature works in Tampa, where I live in the off season and I've been getting down there by 6:15. I used to turn the lights on in there and I love it. I get down there and I'm just rocking and I get a ton of work done and try to knock out before the traffic gets bad in the evening. And now that I've read the Garden City and been listening to some more of that Garden City, you know, John Mark Comer's book about the Sabbath, I'm going to go in the fall. I'm going to go to a four day a week, 10 hour work days and then really try to protect Friday and Saturday with my kids. You know, if I go from, you know, six in the morning, four a night, get 40 hours solid, you know, plus obviously do whatever else I need to do. I'm gonna try it. We'll see if it works.

It's funny, I was actually just thinking this morning about trying that exact same thing. And I don't know why I haven't thought about this in a while, but Basecamp 37 signals, the company that made Basecamp and a bunch of other great software products, they do this, they have four 10 hour days. Yeah. And they do it really, really well. They actually wrote a really good piece about how they're, you know, convinced that they're more productive as a result of this, I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Cal Newport talked about this in Deep Work, which I probably mentioned in every single episode of the Call to Mastery. So, hey, I want to talk about another one of your habits. So a few months ago, you sent me a text that. And I don't say this lightly. I don't think I will ever forget this text message I received from you. You told me that for four years, you have been praying for me, specifically for my family and my business, every single Friday. And listen, dude, we only see each other a couple of times a year, so I was flabbergasted by that. And I know I'm one of many people on what I assume is a really long list of people you pray regularly for. If you don't mind a very intimate question, can you talk about your prayer habits and routines?

I just got goosebumps. I forgot I even sent that text.

I have thought about that frequently since you sent me that.

Obviously, we all have mentors in our life. For me, you know, this gentleman, Pastor Jack Oliver, you know, so he is very consistent, has a ton of margin in his life. He's been practicing, quote, unquote, the Sabbath in a ruthless elimination hurry long before it was written. You know, but one of the things he always does, anytime I would talk to him, he would say, hey, I just want to know. I prayed for you this morning. And there are people that you hear say they pray for you. Just like, okay, we all say it. I'll pray for you. But, like, I knew he did because I'd seen his journal. It means so much to me to know that he prays for me on a regular basis. And so then between him and Pastor Mike Khan, who was the adult pastor on. On staff at the church, he had developed kind of a system of, like, praying for certain people certain days of the week. Because the reality is if you pray for every single person, every single day, like, it just gets so long. I break it down. Monday is. Is mostly family, and then Tuesday is a portion of my friends. Wednesday is like church that I'm praying for, and some friends I break out, and then on Friday. I've always just prayed for people that are solid believers that are trying to start their own businesses. And I'm just praying that God's favor would be on their life. And so you have invested in me without even realizing it so much over the last seven years. Like, how could I not be praying for Jordan Rayner Co. When you succeed, I just feel like I'm a part of that. Like, that's just awesome. There's a ton of people on that. I mean, there's not a ton, actually, it's a very small list. But those people, I pray that God will show them favor because we need the advancement of the kingdom, you know. And so Fridays are the days I pray for those that are in businesses trying to make great work.

I love that so much. That's so practical, too. I love the idea of, like a different group of people every day of the week. That's really. That's really smart. Hey, so that's actually a really good segue to something I wanted to ask you about. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall in a conversation, I think you and I were having tea recently and we were talking about how over time. Right. So again, pre Maple Ridge, you're a student pastor. You're, I'm sure, giving lots of career advice, advice on career and calling to young people. As time goes on, you've been encouraging more and more young people to pursue careers outside of, quote, unquote, my least favorite term, full time industry or my new favorite term for this, religious professionals. Can you talk about your personal journey on this topic?

Yeah. I do believe there's a calling on some people's lives to be pastors, to be preachers, you know, and the pastors that you and I know in our lives, like, there's no doubt they should be doing that. But I've met so many young adults, you know, millennials or, you know, just people in their 20s and 30s that, you know, they were encouraged to abandon what they felt they were really good at to be going to ministry, and then nothing's really come of it. Like, they were kind of thought they'd be a pastor of a church somewhere or be a student pastor. The reality is, is that, like, we need believers everywhere in all the different fields doing things with excellence, you know, And I think that's why I resonated so well with your book and also with Garden City was just the idea. No. We are called to create. We are called to work. And God has given certain people gifts. And if you're a nurse, you have a calling on your life. Nurses are amazing, you know, and they need to be nurses. You know, I have a daughter that wants to be a doctor. Like, and she knows it. And, like, she's not even questioning it. And I'm like, I just want to encourage that. I think we are called to be tent makers. We're called to be in the lives of people and just doing it very, very well. And that's why I've just really loved Call to Mastery. And I've talked to probably five different college kids and those in their 20s in the last three or four weeks. Just saying, you know, it's okay, like pursue this. We're all called to full time ministry. We're all, we're all in full time ministry. It's not. Some just get paid to do it.

Amen. Jesus didn't come just to save souls. He came to redeem all things, to resurrect all things. We're recording this right after Easter. Easter was the inauguration of the kingdom in which Christ has invited us as his vice regents, as his ambassadors, to go out into every corner of creation and to claim those things under the kingship and the authority of Jesus Christ, to work to eradicate coronavirus, to work to build amazing summer camps where people can engage with each other and build community and enjoy nature and build businesses that reflect his creative character.

I work with college kids, you know, and really when I went into camp ministry, I really was thinking I was going to be ministering to kids. And God over the first three or four years really drew me to realize, no, my main primary ministry is the college kids. And that's where I'm finding so much joy. And you know, for this summer we're going to be talking a lot about just the idea that they're called the full time ministry, that they, you know, sometimes they get caught up in what God's will is for their life. And the reality is that, you know, what you're passionate about, you know, what you're excited about, just go and pursue that. And if you do it, you're going to find pure peace. Obviously you're not going to get there right away, you know, and I think for me, it took me 13 years before I really found what I really knew was my calling, you know, which was to run summer camp. That's what I get passionate about more than anything. And I think once you have that passion, people see it, they're going to confirm it in you, you know, and that's what is happening to me. And I've seen that in college kids. I want to come on because I don't can confirm them and what they're feeling, you know. So, yeah, 100 like, it's been incredible to see that shift a little bit.

I do think there is a shift happening and I pray that me and my team could play a small part in that. And I pray every day that more and more people will be talking about this more frequently. I mean, you've been on a pastoral staff. What can church leaders be doing right now, today to show kids the eternal significance and goodness of all God? Glorifying work.

It's so easy when you're in student ministry and in pastoral ministry to get excited about those that go into full time ministry. And so those stories are just so easy to tell. I think the key is telling the stories of those who've gone off to do amazing things in the nursing field, in the business field, whatever field that can tell all those stories. You know, I think when Pastor David Platt was in charge of the International Mission Board, like he changed some of the rules as far as going and doing full time missionary work overseas. Like, well, you can have incredible missionary work overseas doing a quote unquote regular job, right? And do it really, really well over there. And then you don't have to pay you to be a missionary. You're getting paid to be over there and you're still a missionary. So I think that that was huge and I love that shift. I think we need to start talking more along those lines with, with kids, encouragement, hey, no, you can be in the missions field, man. Go get a nursing degree, go get your PA degree, go get your accounting degree and go do it overseas and be a missionary that way or being in your neighborhood. I think it's huge.

I know we have a lot of pastors who actually listen to the show, which I love. I want to make this super practical. I actually gave this advice to a group of pastors in South Florida recently of like three practices we can do to, to help solve this problem in the church. Number one, just stop saying full time ministry. I gotta come up with better terminology for that. I'm digging religious professionals right now. Secondly, you brought up this idea that like, we really celebrate the commissioning of people going to the mission field. And I think when we do that, I think we should do that. Of course we should bring missionaries up in front of the congregation, celebrate them, pray for them and send them on their way. But if we don't also do that when teachers go back to school and when people get new jobs in corporate America, I think we are explicitly sending a message to adults and children in the congregation that their work is less than right. And so I want to see every congregation, I mean, very practical, just have people stand up every Sunday who are starting a new job tomorrow and pray for them. You don't need to talk about what their specific jobs are. Just say whatever your Work is that you're going out in the world to do tomorrow, redeem it. You are doing redemptive work on behalf of the king. The third thing is I saw this done really well in South Florida. Just bringing people up on stage, monthly, quarterly, whatever, and asking them about what they're going to be doing this time tomorrow. Right. So Sunday morning, 10am what are you doing tomorrow? Monday morning, 10am Tomorrow. And how does that contribute to human flourishing? So hopefully that's helpful to some of you guys listening. You recently, in the last year, experienced nothing short of a miracle in the life of Maple Ridge. Can you share that story with us and what the Lord's shown you through it?

Yeah. So we about four years ago, started praying for the idea of building a lake. Like, we felt like the one thing we didn't have at camp was a lake. We didn't, you know, and so we looked in the idea of building one and God was just kind of working our way towards doing that. Two years ago, we began preparing that way. Well, then out of nowhere, our neighbor to the camp, we got word through my father actually, who was actually talking to her, they were interested in selling a piece of property adjacent to us. Well, the piece of property was 225 acres, which is. Was incredible. It basically double our size of our camp property, but on it was a 10 acre lake. We were going to build a five acre lake for maybe like, you know, 400,000. Well, she ends up offering it to us, the whole piece of property of 225 acres for $409,000, which is an incredible price. You know, you imagine what can you buy in Tampa for $400,000? Not much, you know, and so we were just so excited. The problem was we didn't have any money in the bank. We had money in the bank, but not enough to pay for this, you know. And so we asked her, we said, hey, could you give us a year? That camp had never raised that kind of money, but would you allow us to take a year and raise the money? I told her, we don't have $40,000 to make. We don't have $4,000 in the bank for this. But we know a God who owns the cattle on Thousand Hills, and if he wants us to have it, he's going to provide for it. And so we set out with the idea of prayer. If we go for it, man, if we can come up with 20, 30, 40%, that'd be awesome. Well, coming down to the end, the month of October of 2019, we as a board just began praying and fasting and asking the Lord, lord, will you provide? Will you provide? Like, he ended up allowing us to find a loan right at the end, like, through an individual that was only, like, for $140,000. The rest was cash that we paid. So we were able to pay cash and had this loan that we're going to pay off in three years.

You raised 300ish thousand dollars.

And then. So that loan was $140,000, and we were going to pay it off over two years. Well, the next month, I was on the phone with the individual that loaned us that money and just telling him, thank you, appreciate it so much. And he said, oh, by the way, I wanted to let you and the board know I'd like you all to tear that note up. And so literally, right there, within a year, God just provided all of the money for the property, paid cash. And it was incredible for me, you hear of other people praying for God to do amazing things like that, like, and you get excited for them, but, like, to have that experience for us as a ministry and us as a board and myself personally, it was just like, like, wow, God really can do something farther, more than what we can even ask or think. And that's just been a really great testimony to who he is and just how he's used the community to do that, his people, you know, it was an incredible, incredible experience for him to hear him to say, you can tear that note up. The reality is, if we were in the situation right now and having a bunch of debt and going into this, we'd be in a completely different boat. Again, God took care of us.

So as a leader, I'm assuming one of the lessons you gotta be taking from this is like, man, our prayers are too small. So how is that informing your prayers for the camp now? Right? You got this property. Like, what do your prayers look like for the camp now?

When I look back to my prayers of, like, 2013 and 14, my prayers are like, man, well, just give us 350 campers. You know, give us 400 campers. You know, let us get a return rate of 65%, you know, help. Because when we took over, we had a debt. So I was like, let's just pay this debt off. So, like, one of the books that was so formidable in those early years was the Circle Maker. And that kind of blew my mind regarding prayers because my prayers up to that point were very small. So this past. For three years, I've been circling and praying for a lake and God provided, you know, and so now we're praying. All right, Lord, we want to build a new camp around this lake that's going to be three times the size of what we are currently. We're almost completely sold out. We have no more extra beds. But we want to continue to see advancement in the kingdom and impact more lives. So now we're beginning again. We're praying for several million dollars. We're praying for a new master site plan. We want to triple our attendance, you know, over the next five years. So now that's where we're stepping on a faith again to say, okay, Lord, we want to go there, help us.

Get there when our motives are right. We are ambitiously pursuing the work God's created us to do. And we can genuinely say our overriding ambition is his glory and the good of others. Man, we should be bold in our prayers. We should not be ashamed to walk into the throne room with Christ opening the door for us to ask our great God to do immeasurably more than we could do in our own strength. What an amazing testimony.

My encouragement to anyone listening is start praying. Start praying big, like, and, you know, and going back to it, circling it over and over and over again and just trusting that he'll do it and he'll. He will. I've seen it time and time again, and it may be like, you might be, like, listening and being like, well, I don't own a business. Do you have a family member that doesn't know Christ? Have you really sought the Lord to pray if we go after him or hurt every single day? Pray for their salvation, you know, and I think God honors it. He honors bold prayers. And it's just been really cool to see him answer it. I'm ready to do it again. I've been praying right now for a miracle. I want God to eradicate this virus. He doesn't seem to be answering it. I think he's trying to get our attention a little bit. He's answering in different ways. Maybe not eradicating immediately, but, man, why don't we pray and go boldly for miracles for him to do that kind of stuff? It's time for the church to rise up and stop praying for our best friend's aunt's dog who died.

You know, which books are you giving away the most to others right now? Which ones are you recommending the most?

I probably don't read as much as you. I wish I could, but I've given away the Circle Maker to all my board members twice. Over. But actually, our intern team just went through the Circle maker. I know Ms. Crystal Whitten mentioned it once on the show. If you haven't read it, you need to pick it up. Mark Batterson. And it's awesome. The other one I've given away, especially for those that are kind of, like, kind of discontent with what they're doing and they feel like they want to do something more. I love John Acuff's book, Do Over. I've given that book away to so many people that if they feel like they're in a job where they're hitting a ceiling or they're about to go through a transition where they feel like they need to pivot, that book is very, very important. I give that one away a lot to people. It's very encouraging. You know, he does a great job of just really helping you realize you can do more.

Yeah, it's a great book. And you can find those, of course, at jordanrayner.com bookshelf I think circle Maker is gonna rise in the rankings of one of the most frequently recommended books here. Who would you most like to hear on this podcast?

Man, that's a great question. You've had so many incredible guests down here. You're doing a great job of procuring these awesome guests. You and I joked when we're back having the coffee or whatever it was. I just love that you were, like, so bold, like, so honest. Like, I'd love to get Kanye west on. On the show. And I. I was like. And at first I was like, like, who is this guy? Like, what's he talking about? Then I'm like, of course he's gonna have Kanye West. How does he Just blows my mind. So that would be incredible. Have you seen his interview with David Letterman?

No, I haven't seen it.

Probably before he really kind of came out with all this newer stuff. It's older, but it's just so fascinating, like, to watch him in his interviews. I highly recommend that. That would be awesome. But then the other one, I think, if you haven't had him already, is John Acuff. He's just an incredible encourager. I mean, how do you not love John Acuff?

John and I have been talking, and he's expressed some interest in coming on. We just got to make it work scheduling wise. So I'll let you know when that happens as we wrap up. You've given such great wisdom for leaders out there. Boil it down to one thing. You really want our listeners to walk away with this audience of people who love their work because they believe it's a means of glorifying God and serving others. Well, what do you want to leave them with?

If you're listening this podcast on a regular basis, you get tons of, like, stuff to take away and apply, which is just why I keep going back to it every single day, listening to it all the time. But I think I'm a pretty practical person. Right. I love the practice and habit of praying for people, praying for my employees, praying for my staff, praying for my friends. So if you, you know, as a business owner, are you praying for those and actually letting them know, encouraging them by letting them know you're praying for them? And then I think also it goes hand in hand. Man, there's something powerful about a handwritten note. You know, at camp, like, the only way to communicate with your kid is via snail mail, like mail. And so mail time at lunch is one of the, like, funnest times. And, like, kids get mail and they open it up and they have to sing for their packages, you know, and then afterwards we have this thing called flat on back where they like or rest period, basically. And it's a chance for them to write letters. And I watched a pastor of mine that was a pastor of a large church did that on a regular basis on his time off. And I was like, I want to be like that guy.

Inside my desk drawer right now is a handwritten note from Dwayne Blaisdell that I keep handy all the time with a few others. Carrie Newhoff has been on the show. I have a note from him in here. I have some notes from some of you out there who have sent us mail, and I treasure those. This is a habit that I've really tried to start cultivating. I want to commend you for just the exceptional work, work you and your team do at Maple Ridge. I know many, many people who have gone to the ranch and had life changing experiences there. Thank you for helping students see the eternal significance of their work inside and outside of the four walls of the church. And just man, on a deeply personal note, thank you again for your prayers, for your encouragement of me, my family, and my work. I feel like you're a partner of Jordan Rayner and company. Hey, Dwayne, assuming that camp is happening, when's the latest people can register for camp? In 2020. Yeah.

So as of right now, they can continue to register up until the weeks are full. So, like, we already have a couple of sessions full already, but if there's a spot available and they want to sign up the day before, then it'll be available on the website. So go to maple ridgeranch.org camp and all the information is there. You could register right there if we're having camp. If the bed's available, we'll get them into camp. I love it.

Dwayne, thanks for hanging out with me, man.

I love the podcast and I love you and your family, and thank you so much for having me on.

You're a great friend, man. I love Dwayne Blaisdell. So glad that he was finally able to come on. Hey, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. The call to Mastery. I'll see you next time.