Graham Cochrane (Author of How to Get Paid for What You Know)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Today's guest is my very good friend, Graham Cochran. If you remember that name, it's because he was on episode number one of the Call to Mastery and we're finally welcoming him back. He's one of the most talented entrepreneurs I know. The most talented. Specifically when it comes to running an online business that sells courses or memberships or other types of digital content. Graham and I recently sat down to talk about how he came to view his work as an entrepreneur as ministry, even when he was simultaneously helping to plant the church. We talked about the three steps to discerning what knowledge you have today that people will pay for. And finally, I think you guys will get a kick out of this. We talked about our shared love of musical theater and our respective roles in west side Story. I may or may not have delivered my one line from west side Story here on the Call to master. You have to listen and find out, guys, you're going to get a ton of value out of this great conversation with my friend Graham Cock. My good friend, Graham Cochran.

Welcome back. Hey, thanks for having me back.

Only the third time.

Yes, that's what I just heard. I feel so honored.

I mean, especially with that company, right? Like you, Carrie Newhoff and John Mark Comer.

Wow.

Only repeat guests. So, hey, and here's the deal. I don't know if you remember this. You were episode number one.

Right? Which means they're the best, right?

You're the best 100%. And so maybe this means this is the last episode. No, no, no. I'm just kidding. But I feel like we do have to end with Graham Cochran. So, you know, you're. That'll be the last episode. That would be an amazing. So for those who haven't listened, episode one. Tell us about you. Tell us your. I'm really curious for you to unpack your story and kind of the path that led you to what you're working on right now.

Yeah, I mean, it really falls in line with this book that I just wrote. I'm an unlikely entrepreneur, so I'm not the one that I expected to be on a podcast like this. I know that it's not all entrepreneurs, but people that seem to know their calling seem to know the work they want to do in the world. And I felt like I. I knew what that was, and that was musician. So I'm an artist, creative musician. I did musical theater. I was a theater kid.

I was in Time out.

Come on.

We've been pretty good friends for a few years. You know, this I got at each other's house, but I didn't know music. I know music, obviously. I've listened to the Graham Cochran catalog on itunes, which, fans is something else. Musical theater, I didn't know that was.

My first love, actually. I was. I thought that's what I was going to do. I thought was gonna be on Broadway. Yeah. Then we move into film.

Do you know that, like, this was my dream for a hot second.

It makes sense. You really. You nerd out over Hamilton, bro.

That's true. Yeah. So, like, four years throughout high school, I was, like, hardcore in musical theater. My first week of Florida State, which is, like, world renowned for their school music and especially musical theater program, I walk into tryouts, and I stay in the room for, like, three minutes, like, nope, I peaked at 18 and I'm done. So I didn't know this. All right, so musician, you want to be a rock star, go from there.

Yeah, I'm a performer. I mean, that's what I felt like God called me to be, was a performer. And I chased that dream hard, and it fell flat. I didn't get signed to a record deal, which was my only plan through college. I went to college to make my parents happy, and the whole game was get a record deal. So by the time I get out of college, I don't have to have a real job ever. Yeah, funny. I still don't have a real job now, but I did for a little bit. And I tried that corporate America, and it just. I felt like a square peg and round hole or vice versa. I just felt like I don't fit. We moved to Florida to plant a church here in Tampa in 2009. Global recession. I lost two jobs that year. We had our first baby, bought our first house. We were on food stamps for 18 months. I was 26 years old. And I felt like, wow, I'm going downhill. You know, I thought I was peaking and getting excited in the college years, and I'm going downhill. I have no plan for my life. And that's when God did something very different. He said, I want you to start blogging and making a YouTube channel about music. I had an audio engineering background. That's what I studied in college. And I was like, how does this make any sense? How does this make money? How is this a good use of my time? And so God just took me on this wild ride of sharing my information, my knowledge, my experience, and putting it out there in the world. And he turned it into an online business. That was over 12 years ago, and that's now spawned a second business. I help people, not only musicians, record their music through the Recording Revolution, but now I help people, normal people, start online businesses based around their knowledge, their passion and their experience. And it's been a crazy, fun ride, man.

So that business that you started as a blog years ago, this business called the Recording Revolution. And since you were last on this podcast about two and a half years ago, you walked away from that business, a very lucrative business it was doing. What was the Recording Revolution doing, revenue wise, roughly when you walked away?

Yeah, like 1.2 million a year.

Yeah. Taking you, you know, really only required a few hours of your time a week. And listeners are shaking their heads right now and asking why you would ever walk away from that. So unpack that a little bit. Why did you.

Yeah, so this, this was a struggle for me. This is like an identity conversation. Honestly, I. In 2015, I had been doing.

That's why I'm asking it.

Yeah. You know where this is going? 2015, I had been doing that business for six years, had made more money than I ever thought possible because, remember, I'm a musician, so you don't. You don't expect to make much unless you hit it big. And. And I was really. I was a combination of bored, unfulfilled, and I had this weird itch that I was kind of over talking about music and recording. I was really interested in talking about business. I was really interested in sharing what I'd learned in business. And people were starting to reach out to me for coaching. I had a little bit of press written about me in 2015 that got me a little bit of exposure. So all of a sudden, people like, hey, could you help me turn my fitness instructing business into an online business or my motorcycle mechanic business into an online business? And so I got the itch to do something back then, but I was too scared to step into that world. That's a big pond. I was. I was a big fish in a little pond, and that's a very, very big pond. And then I also felt like, you know, what will people think of me because I'm the music guy? So I would say it was a. It was a three year process of me punting this decision down the field because I felt like for the first time with the recording revolution, I had achieved something. I was known for something. I had success. I felt like I had identity and purpose, and all of a sudden my own desires were making me want to walk away from that and do something different. And I was scared of that. Because if I'm not the music guy or the music education youtuber guy, then who am I? And what if what I do fails? Will I come crawling back? I was on a podcast yesterday sharing the analogy for me is like, I felt like Michael Jordan. So confident that he's a good basketball player that he tries his hand at baseball only to realize he sucks at baseball and goes back to. I was like, I don't. I'm not Michael Jordan. I'm trying to compare myself, but I'm like, I don't want to be embarrassed. Like, he should have stayed in basketball from the outside looking in. That was my fear, man. And it took me three years to start this second business. And then it took me another three years running both of them together, to finally position myself to step away from the recording revolution. I still own it. I'm still the CEO, but I. I'm no longer the face of it. I'm no longer doing the content. And it's. Because it's. It was disingenuous. I didn't. I don't care about music recording like I once did. And the audience still does. They still are excited, and I just can't fake it anymore. And they deserve someone who is excited. And so it was a hard struggle for three to six years of even starting a second business and then stepping out from the face of the thing that made me successful.

I want to commend you for something because you and I have had a lot of conversations about that transition behind the scenes, but a lot of people in that position would just coast, be like, yeah, like, I don't really care about this content that I'm producing anymore, but it's great money and I get to just kind of sit back and kind of enjoy life and kind of coast forever. And like, you just weren't content with that, you sense that, okay, Lord, you've given me this knowledge, you've given me these skills, and I feel called to put it to use somewhere else, even if that means stepping away. And you were prepared. I know you still own the recording revolution, but you were prepared to not own the recording revolution. Right? Am I remembering this correctly?

Yeah, that was actually plan A. Plan A was to shut it down.

Plan A was shut it down.

Yeah. But business parts like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. People still love this brand. Like there's, let's see if we can try a plan B first and see if, if we can, you know, replace you.

No, but I just as your friend, want to give you credit publicly here. You were willing to walk away from it all because you believed God was calling you to something different, even though it was risky. And I love it. So, hey, before we go any further, you already mentioned it before, this terrific new book that I was honored to endorse. I want you, I want us to introduce that because I'm sure I'm going to reference it a couple of times throughout the conversation. So first off, what's the full title again of this new book?

Yeah, it's called how to Get Paid for what yout Know, Turning youg Knowledge, Passion and Experience into an Online Income Stream in youn Spare Time.

Now you know why I wanted you to say the full title.

Oh, yeah. Subtitles are key. Subtitles are key.

It's a doozy of a title. It's a great title. So what's the 32nd overview of what this book is going to help readers do?

It's simple. Everybody, I believe, has a business inside of them. And the reason is, is because you, you have knowledge, you have experience about something that is valuable to someone else if only you how to package it up, get it in front of the right people and sell it in an efficient, ethical way. And so for non traditional entrepreneur types who want lifestyle freedom, flexible work, meaningful work, lucrative work, this is an alternative to maybe the brick and mortar or traditional business. It's the way of the future in my opinion.

I 100% agree. Yeah, you're basically helping people start what a lot of people call a quote unquote, passive income business. And you and I have talked a lot in the past about how our Christian faith should cause us to think differently than the rest of the world about passive income. I'm curious for you if you could share with our listeners because of your faith. What is there to celebrate and critique about this world of passive income businesses?

Yeah, lots to critique. Let's start there. I mean, I think, you know, even the business gurus of the age who don't even love Jesus, critique passive income, but for a different reason. They make fun of passive income because they disrespect people who they feel are lazy and they respect the hustle and they respect overwork, and it's basically workaholism glorified and repackaged and.

Yeah, 100%.

And so that's one. That's one criticism of.

But.

But from a Christian, we should criticize some of the passive income teaching because it is focused on self and it's focused on, you know, if you read the Book of Proverbs, there's all this language that's sort of like, hey, don't be the fool, because the fool is lazy. Like, he puts his hand in his dish and he's too tired to even bring it to his mouth. You know, like. Like he's so lazy. Laziness is foolishness. That's not wise, and that's not what we're aiming for. And a lot of passive income is geared around, hey, just do this thing. People are just numbers. It's cold. It's just a formula. It's just a system. It has nothing to do with providing value, has everything to do with just finding a way to sit on the beach and not have to work. When, you know, you're. This is why I love talking to you about it, because you're the work is good guy and work is sacred. And that was so helpful for me in my journey as an entrepreneur. And that's how we connected, was first I read your book, and so I believe as a Christian, that work is good. Part of my journey was finding the right fit because I just. I didn't find the right work. So I'm really. I love in this book. I'm really trying to help people find the right work. That's one element of it. That's probably the first element is, are you doing work you're really called to. But passive income is really powerful to me because it's really just efficient use of your time. I mean, your book Redeeming youg Time is all about this. Like, there's nothing glorifying to God by just doing something longer than it takes, you know? You know, there's nothing that's. That's honoring by saying, like, it takes two hours, but I'm gonna spend 20 doing it and just grind, grind it out. And so for me, it's. It's like, wow, we Live in an age where there's tools, there's automation, there's a global economy that's at your fingertips, where it's just possible now to do things that weren't possible when I was growing up as a kid in the 80s and 90s. There's things that allow me to reach people and help them and sell my products digitally faster. That when I look at it, it just doesn't take me that many hours to run. And so I've wrestled with that and, you know, we've talked about this a lot. And so I feel guilt and shame because it feels like, well, shouldn't I be working more? But they're trying to redeem it and find the good in it. And then a lot of what God has used. The efficiency and the passive income part of my first business is what allowed me to start this business, the Graham Cochran brand. It's also, it's allowed me to like, lead worship at my church for years to make records, you know, for the church to have time in my day to do things that maybe aren't as quantifiable because they don't make me money or don't pay the bills, but they are part of my, my calling and mission. And you know, it's just, it's. There's so much good in there, but I think it's not talked about enough. I don't, I don't see it. It's, it's a very American Western thing to work hard. The, the Puritans are all about hard work. So I feel like I'm a black sheep even in the Christian culture. So I'm still trying to like, figure out where, where that conversation should go that's healthy and helpful.

Yeah, no, but I, but I so appreciate your perspective on this and we've talked about me, very old book, but really the one that kind of made passive income famous, the four Hour Workweek on the COVID is really, I think, a concise description of how a lot of people view this realm. It's a picture of a guy laying on a hammock in the beach. And the message is very clear. You can make a lot of money, only work for hours a week so that you can coast and just live this very luxurious lifestyle. Right. And that I think as Christians we ought to criticize. The purpose of this life isn't just to sit back and relax until Jesus comes, comes, comes back. But to your point, passive income is a more efficient means of doing the good works which God has prepared in advance for us to do. See Ephesians 2:10, and that we could celebrate and say, yeah, there's a more efficient way to serve people with the products that this business is selling. I think that's. I don't know. I think that's really beautiful. The point is service. That's the distinction, right? Christians can view this business model as a more efficient means of serving others. Is that a pretty fair summary?

Absolutely. And here's. Let's uncover the dark secret, right? Like there are so many Christians, say just Christian entrepreneurs who are lauded for building wonderful businesses, giving lots of money away, having a great company culture, but maybe they work way too much and so they can't take care of their body. So they're not taking care of the temple of God because they don't sleep enough, exercise enough, have time to cook healthy food. They're not around their kids, they're busy building their kingdom. And maybe it's for God, but they also miss out on an opportunity to be fully who they are. So it's more than just the work, right? It's if you could run your business for God's glory in 30 hours or 20 hours and still achieve your goals and then have more time to exercise, sleep, be with your kids, spend more time with your family, man, that's a, that's a layer that's not talked about enough. And I think even in Christian circles, we still don't talk about that because it's, it's uncomfortable and it's, it's convicting.

Yeah, totally. You ended your book this way, which I love you said, quote, at the end of the day, that's all we're doing in business, serving. And what is serving? Giving of ourselves for the benefit of someone else. I mean, it's beautiful, right? Like you're, you're quasi quoting scripture and Jesus coming to serve, not to be served. But that is, I mean, business when done right? That's what business is all about, serving the customers. Now, our sinful nature distorts the heck out of that and we want to serve ourselves. But that's a very romantic view of business. Do you have you. I don't know, you've had a couple of people read an advanced copy of this book. Have you gotten people cynical? People be like, come on, Graham, business isn't about.

No. Maybe because I'm only sending it to people that like me and are nice. But I mean, this is the truth, though. So my niche of, like, let's just not even say the niche of the topic, but the, the type of business, the lane online Business content. I do YouTube, I do podcast. You do con. You do content to. We're in the same lane, but in this space, the people who are really making a lot of money traditionally are like, it's not about service, it's just about ads, or it's about your funnel, or it's about. They'll point to other elements of an online business and all this stuff that I teach about, but they miss what the soul of online business is. And so I feel like if I just look back at my life and what God has done in my businesses, you know, I've figured out some stuff along the way, and I think I, you know, I have some strengths. I'm. I'm disciplined, I'm consistent. I think I'm smart and intentional. I think I'm a good communicator and I'm adaptable and I'm creative, but I'm only moderately any of those things. I think, if anything, what I've seen has led to my success is that I just have a relentless desire to make sure everything I do in touch is serving somebody. So if I'm going to do one video that's 10 minutes on YouTube or one episode of a podcast, I assume this could be the only piece of content. A random stranger of touches of mine. And so I want their experience with this content to feel like it helped transform them in one way or another and serve them powerfully. And most of what I put out in the world is free. Like 95 to 99% of what I create every week goes out for free. And so I'm really not trying to give the light stuff or the fluff or the teaser just to bring them into the paid stuff. I believe that my commitment to serving people is what grows my audience, which allows me to sell more product in the back end. It's just not as quantifiable, and it sounds like, to your word, romantic and maybe antiquated, but it's 100% real.

I agree. I can't remember. Did you ever read Shoe Dog, the story of Nike?

No, but you were talking about that. I think in one call. We were on.

I talk about this nuts. I love this book so much. I want to read. I just pulled this up in Evernote. I want to read this somewhat lengthy quote. You're reminding me of Phil Knight, the founder of Nikes. Like, I always thought of business as this dirty term, and I've come to see it's really beautiful. Here's what he says. He says, quote, when you make something, when you Improve something. When you deliver something, when you add some new thing or service to the lives of strangers, making them happier or healthier or safer or better. And when you do it all crisply and efficiently, smartly, the way everything should be done but so seldom is. Listen to this. You're participating more fully in the whole grand human drama. Oh, preach more than simply alive. You're helping others live more fully. And if that's business, all right, call me a businessman, end quote. Isn't that so good?

That's good.

I don't know where Phil Knight's at spiritually, but I come back to that quote a lot. Like, that's one of the most beautiful, beautiful ways to articulate a theology of work in this idea that work is service to others that I've ever heard from. Christian or non Christian.

Well, yeah. And the language he used there is participating in this. This story. That's the key right there, right? That's the. The thing that Christians entrepreneurs should get and Christian workers should get. It's so much more than you. You know, there's more than just your role. And, look, I spent a lot of time trying to help people find what they're meant to do, and so do you. But, like, that's a means to an end. It's also so that you find your role so that you can be a part of. Going back to the musical theater days that we both shared apparently, is, you know, like, get the right part. Like, the first part of, like, auditions is, like, all about you. Like, make sure you get the right part. But then once all the parts are assigned, whether you like the part or not, once you are the right part, then it's all about the show, and we all have to work together. And it's exciting because the night the curtain goes up, opening night, you're like, this only works when we all play our part. And it's this that I like. It's not just my lines that I like or my role. I might like those parts, but I like the energy of the whole show. The lighting, the set, the audience, the energy. It's, like, electric. And so that's what I think the world is. And as an entrepreneur, as a worker man, it's so much more exciting when you find what you like to do, find what you're called to do, like his language, do it crisply, do it well, and then realize that it's because then you get to more fully participate in everything that's happening in the world. And you can go to bed at night feeling like, hey, I did my part really, really well. And I'm glad I did my part well because I like the whole. That it's a part of.

That's beautiful. I think it's a beautiful picture of the church, right?

Of the.

Of this body coming together with many different parts, many different skills. That's beautiful. Hey, I want to. I want to harken back to something that you breeze past in your story. We were actually just talking about this the other day. You moved to Tampa in part to plant a church to help your buddy plan a church. And you were also starting the recording revolution at the same time. And we were talking about. You were telling me how it was easy obviously, to see how, you know, evangelistic outreach with the church plant was ministry. Harder to see how the recording revolution was ministry. But I know you've made strides in your thinking here, so can you just talk for a minute about how you see your work as participating in this grand drama of God's, even when you're not, quote, unquote, saving souls and sharing the gospel?

My church background taught me nothing as a kid about God. And so I was kind of a blank slate. And then the first church I went to post college, where they actually opened the Bible and, and really preached from the scriptures and discipled me and men grabbed me up. That was a formative time in my life. And that church was very evangelistic. And I was explicitly and implicitly, as communicated to me that what you do between nine and five doesn't really matter. Just do it ethically and take care of your family. But what really matters is what you do for God. Which I don't know why they laid claim to that language, but of course, any young Christian wants to do something for God. And so that was in my head. I was like, okay, this makes sense. Like, I can get any job. It almost took the burden off of me needing to find my calling because my whole life was like, identity, identity. I was like, forget, forget it. So in a way, it was freeing. I was like, I can have any job, doesn't matter. I'll tithe. I'll take care of my family. And then what I do on Sunday when I would go on missions trips, I mean, we went to Costa Rica, we went to France. We would walk around the city and knock on doors, and I was doing God's work. And then the ultimate was going to start a church. And that when we came down here, I was like, man, I really felt, like, smug. I would tell people, you know, I'm going to go help Plant a church, and I'm going to be a volunteer worship leader. And people were impressed, like, oh, wow, you're going to move all the way across the country and do this? And in my heart, I felt like this is the ultimate serving God, like, picking up and moving somewhere for God. And it was when I started the business out of necessity because I needed an income and lost my job. When we got down here, I told you the other day, it feels like I was building two things. A church plan is like building a business from the ground up, and then I'm building my business, and I made time for both. But it felt like I was mentally divided because I was. And my pastor Buddy, he both felt for us because we were broke and he wanted the businesses to succeed because he felt bad because he kind of, like, helped encourage us to come down with him. But then he also felt like I wasn't fully participating in the church, and he wanted more of me, more of my ideas, more of my time. And I felt like, I'm giving you. I'm giving you, like, 20 hours a week. I'm trying to get my business. 20 hours. I'm doing the best I can. Mentally, I'm divided. And it felt like one of the things. Church planting was God's work, and the business was just what you have to kind of do.

And so I think it's a means to an end.

It's a means to an end. And I was like, God, this is a harder means. I'll just get a job. But I clearly felt him say, don't go get a job. Keep blogging. Keep making YouTube videos, which is a weird thing. Is that really what you're saying, God? Because I feel like I would be drawn to verses like, he who fails to provide for the needs of his family is denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. And I'm like, aren't I contradicting your own words, God? Because I'm not able to provide fully, shouldn't I just go to Home Depot or Publix and get a job? But I felt him say, no, keep doing what you're doing. And so it was a shameful part of my life. And I told this a bit where I felt like I had to explain to people that I wasn't really pursuing work. I was just blogging. And so I was conflicted. But through the work of Tim Keller, through your book, through intensive Bible study, like, I have slowly come to learn that I was fighting against the whole point, which is all of. And you Talk about this so eloquently, but all of work, all of life is ministry. You don't have to have a job or be a part of a church to do ministry. If you take care of your kids, if you take care of your neighbor, if you do anything, you're doing ministry because you are an ambassador for Christ. And so I felt like when I realized, not that it's about exposure or reach, but when I started to see the. The numbers of, like, I'm reaching millions of people a year through my YouTube channel. Like, talk about outreach. Like, granted, I'm not a pastor and I'm not preaching the gospel, but I'm influential in the world without even realizing it. And so to me, it's always been light in darkness displacement theory. Like, okay, I'm going into a dark industry, the music industry, and I'm going to be a light in the music industry. I'm going to uphold Christian values, Christian beliefs. I'm going to talk openly about my faith, faith and my church. I'm going to encourage people, empower people. I'm going to your point. I'm going to try to be winsome for Christ. The aroma of Christ. I want to look different, smell different, be different. And it's opened up amazing conversations with people. And I've done that in the music industry, which is super dark. It needs a lot of Jesus. And now I'm in the business space, which is arguably even darker because I think the power of money and success is an even deeper pull. And I'm trying to do the exact same thing. And people respond. They're like, this is different. I didn't know you could think about business in this way. And it's refreshing to people. And so to your point, I just now know that I am doing God's work. This is the kind of work he just called me to do. And we need everybody doing God's work wherever they are. I mean, that just makes so much more sense when you think about it. But I was so narrowly minded because I think the church by and large does preach, do something for God. Oh, and by the way, here are your options. Be a pastor, be a missionary, or volunteer like crazy. And that's just unfortunate because a, you gave me a great book recommendation. That book with like a. Doing stuff for God isn't the point of life. Being with God is the point of life that you like being with him, and then, yes, you're going to do things for him. But then that narrow view of what does it mean to do something for God. That's just crippling so many people.

Yeah. And it's so many people. You're one of many of these stories. And this is why I do the work that I do. And it's really. I believe you. And I've been talking a little bit about this. It's really rooted in bad theology about heaven. I think if we believe that our eternal dwelling is just our souls floating around in the sky, doing nothing forever, then, yeah, saving souls is all that matters. Sharing the gospel is all that matters. And of course, we're all called to share the gospel, but we, we forget that Jesus is coming to make all things new. Right. Heaven is, is earthy. It is here. Right. And part of the way that he makes all things new is through the Holy Spirit working through faithful believers. Right. So I, I just commend you for how you've transitioned into this thinking, and I'm so glad you shared that with our listeners, because I think a lot of people are wrestling with this. So. And I'll tell you what, I've had people, I've had many people over the years going to be back here. Are you friends with that Graham Cochrane guy?

I'm like, yeah, yeah.

It's like, I just like stumbled upon that guy's YouTube videos the other day. I'm like, man, like, it's really great. Like, he's just like, really, like, happy and life giving. I'm like, yeah, that's Jesus. You're smelling Jesus on my friend Graham because he's consumed with Jesus. Right. And people, they don't know what to call it, but they could smell it. So keep doing what you're doing. All right, so, hey, we've talked about service being the core of what you do and how you think about business. I'm curious, what else you think is the delta between good and great entrepreneurs in this field? Is it just this service first mentality, like, what else distinguishes great from good entrepreneurs in the online business world?

Yeah, so that's a great question. I think one of the keys to online business is another, go figure, Christian value, which is generosity. And so the online business space, like one of the number one questions I get, and I wrote about this in the book early on because I knew I'd have so many objections and people wouldn't read past chapter one or two if I didn't address it. Number one question is, Graham, why, like, why would somebody pay me for an online course for my information, if you're going to tell me to give it away for free? And so people feel that tension. And so they don't want to give away too much of their knowledge, their experience, their whatever for free because they want to sell their course. And it makes sense to some degree. But I just. Here's the crazy thing, and this is how I know one reason I know Jesus is real because, like, the more I give out for free, the more I teach, like, everything. Like, here's. Here's how business works. Here's like, I have a podcast that just dropped today as we're taping this called the Science of Online Business. And I just walk through the whole business model model. Here's how it actually works. Like, I teach that in my course, but I'm giving it away for free so people understand and they feel like they were served powerfully. And they're like, wow, he just gives all this for free. I wonder what his paid stuff is like. And they're just the loyalty, the bond with your audience that it just gets exponentially tighter and stronger the more you give first. And it takes a lot of confidence in Jesus's teachings, Paul's teachings in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, Solomon's teachings in Proverbs about, like, people that give things away, a lot comes back to them that doesn't make sense mathematically. But there's so much scripture that says, like, generous people prosper in all sorts of ways. And it takes having, moving away from what I was conditioned as an American to have, which is a fixed mindset, a scarcity mindset. Hold on to what you have. Like, it's, you know, someone's going to take it from you. Look out for yourself to move away from that to an abundance mindset, which is it's all God's anyway. He gives, like, generously and liberally to all who ask, everything, wisdom needs, whatever. So I really never will run out of anything. So I can give liberally of my time, of my talents, my money, my information. And what that does is that generosity makes you magnetic as a brand. And you know what it's like when you have that friend that's always will pay for your meal, that always shows up and always seems to have gobs of time to help you move, do whatever. They're so generous with their life that you can't help but love that person and want to be around that person, because that's generosity and it's magnetic. So I've built my businesses around this idea of giving and generosity. And I think that's one thing that makes me magnetic. That's one of the things they're smelling on me, which is different. And they don't know what it is, but they, they're drawn to me. And now I've got them like locked in like a tractor beam right as they're coming on in because they, they love what they're experiencing and they want more of it. And I think so many online business owners just are operating out of a deficit of like, I don't have enough, so why would I give something away? And you're just, you're going to fail from the starting blocks, if that's how you think about it.

This is what you call in the book the value circle, right? Is this, this, this term that you use. How does the value circle apply to professionals who are not entrepreneurs? Right? Like think about the, I don't know, the middle manager at intel, right? Or the, the foreman working in a shop that manufactures motorcycle parts. I don't know, does the value circle apply to them? And if so, what does that look like?

Oh, absolutely. So the value circle is just the simple concept that in a transaction, let's say in a business, that there's, there's four elements and at the center of each of those elements is value. So you want to give value for free first. Ideally, then you want to give a valuable product. Like you don't want to sell a crappy product. You want to over deliver and give value. That's a surprise and delight after the sale, what they weren't expecting, but more than they were expecting. And then in return, the fourth element is you receive the value of payment, of course, but loyalty, testimonials, referrals, and then it all just kind of goes into this beautiful circle and values at the center. I think, I think everyone's an entrepreneur, even if you're in corporate settings, because it's all about service to your point. And so I can tell you this exactly. Here's a good example. When I worked in corporate America, I was at this cool tech company. I was an audio engineer. It was a cool company, boring job, really easy. I was one of the newer audio engineers. And then there was a guy who joined maybe two months after me. And so I was kind of training him and we were doing the same thing. And I noticed after like three to four months, this guy, all of a sudden I got word that he was being promoted out of our, our department. He was going to be a manager over us. And I was like, why did he get promoted? I've been here longer, I'm more talented than he is. I knew these were facts. These were facts. That may have been arrogance, but they were facts. And come to find out if I really stopped and thought about it, it took me a couple years removed to be like, well, he was always there early, always stayed a little bit later. He was always the first to offer to help our then manager do anything. I saw him disappear into the office a lot of times talking to the manager. He went on this trip to Dubai to be part of this thing that seemed like a pain in the butt and I didn't want to volunteer for like he went above and beyond his job description. He functionally did a different job in addition to his job for a few months to the point where he was promoted because he gave value first without getting a paycheck, without getting the raise, without getting the position yet. And that made him promotable. And I learned a valuable lesson post fact which, you know, fortunately I don't work for anybody now, so I guess I could just promote myself, I don't know. But I learned like, man, there's a reason why some people elevate and become elevated because they have to Jesus language. They've humbled themselves to the point of a servant so that they're like, hey, I know this is not on my job description. I know this is not what you're asking of me and this might take more energy of me, but I want to go above and beyond because I love this company and I want to prove that I'm all in and that gets noticed. And people are looking for faithful managers, they're looking for servants to promote and that there's biblical language there, there's parables that talk about that that's who God's looking for too. But I think even atheist, you know, middle managers in corporate America are looking for super servants who are willing to go above and beyond and they're going to get the rewards.

Yeah, I got to say, I think this book, it's obviously primarily for anyone listening right now who wants to start an online business. But I think chapter two alone on the Value circle is worth the price of admission for aspiring entrepreneurs or I think it's really critical that we understand this if we care about doing our most exceptional work in service of others. So. So Grant, the promise of this book is pretty massive, right? Like if you read the description on Amazon, basically the pitch is, hey, God has already given you knowledge and experience. You can patch, package up and give and sell to others online. Right? Big promise. And you take readers through this. I think really practical, helpful, six step framework for doing that. Obviously we don't have time to go into depth into all six of those steps, but I would love for you to share a little bit about step number one, finding your idea, because I think a lot of people listening doubt that they have anything worth that people will pay for knowledge that other people will come to them and pay to access. Can you. Can you share a little bit about finding your idea?

Yeah, it's a great question. So to your point, there's a lot of things that you and I and anyone listening are good at or know how to do that is not valuable to anybody. You know, I'm really good.

I. E. Musical theater, I. E. My role as Chino in West side Story.

Wait, you were in west side story?

100%, bro.

I was Tony in West side Story.

Stop.

Come on. This is getting ridiculous.

This is getting ridiculous. So this is what I peaked. It was the eighth grade, and I was the, like, only eighth grader in the show, and I got a line. I was Chino who ran on stage and said, he killed your brother.

And it was.

Was amazing.

This is. Can we just pause for two seconds? Funny story. So I was Tony, and this. That was my peak. I peaked as Tony. And so at the very end, right, you know, spoiler alert, Tony gets shot. You know, it's Romeo and Juliet, guys. What do you expect? And so when I got shot on the opening night, and they pick up my body and they're like. I'm like, limp and these. You know, my gang is walking me off the stage, and it's silent and somber. My little brother, my punk brother who was probably fifth grade at the time, it's dead silent. He just starts laughing. He just goes bananas. And I'm supposed to stay limp and dead. And I'm like, I'm gonna punch that kid when I get off the stage. Anyway, he ruined my big, sad moment.

But we're not cutting this out of this episode.

Please don't.

Because to my team who's editing this right now. No, we're not. We're not. No. This is.

This is the real stuff. You gotta give.

This is why people show up for. To polish. What were we talking about, Graham?

Finding your idea.

Finding your idea.

But seriously, though, so, yeah, no one's gonna pay me because I was Tony. Like some people. Like some people, they have found a way to monetize their skill of theater and dance and acting. Of course, I use the example of eating pizza. I love eating pizza, and I'm really good at eating pizza, but I haven't found a good way to monetize that skill. But some people have. There's this guy on Instagram who just goes around and eats one bite of one slice of pizza and he rates it and like he's making bank and all these pizza places are begging him to come because he has the authority over pizza. So anyway, it is. Anything's possible. So partly, I would say, you know, you have to. In the book, I walk you through a three part framework, and the first part is you really have to just be selfish at first and write down everything you love, everything you're good at, your hobbies, your things, you know, things that you've helped people with in the past. These are clues, like, what have you helped people do? What do people call you up and ask you for advice on? I get asked a lot, like to help people with their finances for whatever reason. And it's just become a thing. And so there's maybe something there. Maybe I can help other people with their finances. I'm not sure. But for me, it was music. People were always like, hey, how do I record this? What? What do I need to buy? And I just never thought anything of it, but that I was the guy that you would ask about that. So you kind of make a list of things you love, you're passionate about, you've helped people with. People tend to come to you for. But then you do have to take what you know and what you're good at that you may not even think is that impressive. A lot of times we don't. And we're using language like, well, I'm not an expert. And I have. I address that in the book too. Like, no one's really an expert. Expertise is sort of this myth. No one really wants an expert anyway. They just want results. They want help. You don't have to be an expert to help somebody. So you can really kind of take a lot of that narcissism away, because that's all it really is, is you're sort of obsessed with yourself in a negative way. Oh, I'm not good enough. Take your eyes off yourself and look at how. Who could I help? You know, that's the Christian ethos. It's like you can disciple somebody, you know, anybody. You don't have to be a pastor to disciple. It's the same in business. So you kind of take what you're good at. And then you do have to, though, filter it through a framework of what are people willing to pay for? And we will. I walk through two ways of researching that, sort of like locally Sort of like, like in your inner circle of life and then sort of on the Internet, big picture, is there already a market for this? And it's so easy to find out. And I think people are surprised how much money is changing hands in all kinds of weird hobby niches, whether it's dog walking, whether it's motorcycle mechanics, whether it's like I have a brother in law who has an entire business built around fitness for people with back pain. Like it's very specific like for people with back pain who are considering fusions and that kind of stuff. Like you can get crazy niched down. And so I walk them you through a process that just helps, you know, is this something, you know, Ramit Sethi calls it the pay certainty technique. Do people have the ability and willingness to pay? And you'd be surprised what people have the ability and willingness to pay for. And the great thing is you don't have to be the next Amazon or you know, Tesla. You can be a small one person operation and generate a $100,000 or more income relatively easily by having a small slice of the Internet who's interested in what you're interested in. And that's the beauty of the web is it allows you to find those people faster.

I'll say this to putting on my old tech entrepreneur hat. We used to have these conversations all the time when I was running Threshold and some other ventures. A lot of people assume, well I researched the market and somebody's already doing it. And so I gave up. Yeah, it's like a lot of times that's just validation that there's a really big market that people are willing to pay for this thing. It's not a reason to shy away from the market, it's a reason to run into it because somebody's already proven that somebody will pay for that content.

Right.

So that's super helpful Graham. And I hope people will pick up the book and read through this stuff. So before we go into our last three questions, what's the name of the book again?

How to get paid for what you know.

There you go. How do you get paid for what you know? All right, Graham, three questions. We wrap up every conversation with number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

Probably said this on our first episode.

I know, I'm interested to see if this aligns, if this has changed in two and a half years.

No, the number one book is the Go Giver.

That's what you said to yourself, Bob.

Berg, John David Mann and Bob Berg actually endorsed my book as well, which is a crazy story.

It's awesome.

But that book, really. And that's an inspiration for chapter two of my book in the value circle. Generosity, giving things away, being that person. It's just a great mind shift. It should be a Christian book. I don't think he's a Christian, but it's very much Jesus ethos.

I love it. Who do you most want to hear on this podcast?

You got my last one, I think last time I said Tim Keller and you got him on there.

You did. Yeah, we got Tim. Who's next?

Have you had Kirk Cousins on? No.

That's a good answer, though.

Kirk Cousins or. Yeah, like any of those Christian quarterbacks. There's a few football players that I know, like, love Jesus hard and, like, I have so many questions for them in terms of what they deal with from the media and their life. I would love to hear a conversation with a football NFL player.

That's a good answer. That's a good answer. I was talking to. I think it was Randy Alcorn on the pod who does.

Yes, I remember that episode.

A lot of work with players. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Foles, too. Like, get Nick Foles on here.

Yeah, he did. That's right. He mentioned Nick. I got. I got to reach out to Randy. I bet he can get us in touch with Kirk and Nick. That's good. All right, what's one thing from our conversation today? Do you want to reiterate highlight for our listeners before we sign off?

I believe a hundred percent that every one of us has something valuable inside of us to give to the world that could be turned into a business. You don't have to. You don't want to, but you 100% can. And all I try to do every single day is help people dig that out, uncover that, and find a way to make it a reality. So do a little research. I think it's in you. I know it's in you.

I love it. Graham, I want to commend you for the exceptional content you put out in the world. Thank you for reminding us that the purpose of work is not. Not primarily to serve ourselves, but to serve others through the ministry of excellence. And thank you for reminding us of the priesthood of every believer. Right. Of what Luther and Calvin were telling us, that all of us are doing God's work by going out in the world today and doing our work with excellence and love and in accordance with his commands. Guys, again, Graham's new book is how to Get Paid for what you know. And you can learn more about Graham and his work@gramcochran.com Graham, my friend, thanks again for hanging out with us.

It's been my pleasure, Jordan.

Man, that was a fun episode. I hope you guys got a lot of value out of it. Hey, if you're enjoying the Call to Mastery, be sure to check out my new podcast, the Word Before Work. It's a weekly 5 minute devotional helping you respond respond to the radical biblical truth that what you do 50 hours a week, 40 hours a week, whatever matters, for eternity. You can just search for the Word Before Work or my name, Jordan Raynor, wherever you listen to podcasts. And you'll find it right there. Hey, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next time.