Graham Cochrane (Author of Rebel)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Happy New Year and welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Next.

I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as researchers, bank tellers, and graphic designers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my very, very good friend, Graham Cochran. He is a wildly successful entrepreneur, TEDx speaker, and best selling author of how to get paid for what you know and rebel. Find yourself by not following the crowd. More importantly, Graham is just a really serious follower of Jesus and has become an excellent friend of mine over these last five years. Graham and I sat down recently to discuss how Christian guilt about dreaming actually blocks intimacy with God. We talked about how Graham's 50 Dreams exercise can help you clarify which dreams are from God and which are not. And finally, we talked about three practical things that Graham does to work with the Holy Spirit in practical ways. Trust me, you are not going to want to miss this terrific conversation with my friend, Graham Cochran. All right, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Graham Cochran is the first guest to join me thrice on the Mere Christians podcast. I think technically you're a co host now. Welcome back, my friend.

Glad to be co hosting the show with you now.

Hey, we're releasing this episode on New Year's Day.

Yeah. Happy New Year's.

I'm very curious. We've never talked about this. Happy New Year's to you. Is New Year's Day a big deal in the Cochran household? Because it is not in the Rainer household.

You know, it's so funny in the Graham side of the Cochran household, it is a big deal.

Do we need to bring Shay in?

We do, maybe. I love fake newness, which I feel like New Year's Day is fake. It's just, it's this arbitrary moment in time. But I like any excuse to like, this is the year I'm going to change. This is the month I'm going to change. I love new beginnings. I love goal setting. Shay doesn't believe in goals. She's like, what's the point? You're just making something up. It's arbitrary. If you don't hit it, you're going to be disappointed. So she thinks it's a bunch of baloney and I think it's the most exciting thing ever.

Yeah, I mean, you know me, right? Like, I love goals. I love goal setting, but I guess I don't, man. I think about goals on a quarterly basis. I have my long term goals, but I don't say annual goals. I think it's very much 12 week year kind of mentality.

Oh, yeah, I love that. That's a good book, by the way. Great Book.

Yeah. So I don't know. Jan1 is just. Yeah, it's the start of a new quarter. I don't know. I don't get excited about it. I will say this. Our best friends, they have this great New Year's tradition that they've brought us in on. Is this on New Year's Day? No, New Year's Eve. Where they watch all the Star wars films from front to back.

Oh, I can get behind that.

Starting. Oh, yeah, it's great. And then you're ending the whole series around midi. I can't remember exactly how they timed it.

Oh, my.

Steal that one.

Borrow that one. But again, that's another thing that would be a hard no for Shea. I would have to send her away to a spa for the weekend. And then me and Vera, my youngest, would do that together. No question.

You and Vera should come hang out with us this year.

Can I join your family?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, man. So a few months ago, back in September 2024, you hit the best hour list for your new book, Rebel. Congratulations, man.

Thank you, man.

I know it's been a goal of yours for a long time. Speaking of goals, what do you think this book can do for the mere Christians listening in 2025?

Oh, man. My hope is that it would set them free and cause them to dream again. I think here's my big take, bro. And my heart for the Christian community, especially with this book. This book is a personal development book for anybody. There's a lot of Jesus in it. Cause that's kind of how I roll. But it's fun when I get to talk to Christian community specifically about this book. And we took our business leaders at our church in Tampa through an eight week series based on the book, which is really cool. My pastor was like, hey, I would love for you to do a series on it. And that was fun to see how they're processing it. But my big point here for believers is man. God has put desires in your heart. Psalm 37:4. Delight in the Lord, and he will give you the desires. That word there in Hebrew can mean like, to give, I give you a gift. But also can mean to assign. Like he assigns, like. Like I give chores to my kids. Or I gave my daughter Chloe, her name, Chloe. I assigned it to her. So I like to read that both ways. But if you read it as he assigned gifts or desires in our heart, then we should pay attention. I think that our desires are data points. I think dreams in our hearts are data points is the way we're Wired. And this is a book about helping you better understand yourself so you can live out the way God's called you to live.

I've never heard that commentary on that passage, but that makes way more sense than God literally giving us the desires of our heart. Because of course, he doesn't always. Because our hearts are desperately wicked. Right. On the new Earth, he will give us the desires of our heart because our hearts will be free from the curse of sin. Right. And they'll be perfectly in line with his. But that's really interesting. I want to come back to Christian guilt for dreaming in a minute.

Oh, yeah, okay, great.

You're excited to double down on that. But first, let's talk about this rebel framework at a higher level. So this is an acronym, right, for these five key steps that you see the guy take in order to step into your purpose. Talk us through that framework at a high level.

Yeah. So high level, why the word rebel? Why the concept rebel? I don't know what comes up for you when you hear the word rebel? Like, we were talking about Star Wars, I think the Rebel alliance, you know, a bunch of ragtag soldiers trying to take down the big bad Galactic Empire. And the Emperor, you think of like James Dean and Rebel Without a Cause. Like, he's got a red leather jacket, he's probably smoking a cigarette somewhere. He's the kind of guy you don't want your daughters to date, you know? But what's interesting is that to me, a rebel especially, you know, some of the definitions in the Cambridge dictionary are just basically disagreeing with the common thinking of the day, wanting to go in a different direction.

Jesus was a rebel. You pointed this out in your book.

Absolutely, yeah. We list a few rebels in history, and he was the most. Here's the thing with rebels, like, they disappoint people because they don't do what you want them to do, what you expect them to do. And they're not trying to be different, to just piss a bunch of people off. They're trying to be different because they believe there is a better way and they see things from a different standpoint. And I think with rebels in history, whether it's Jesus or Martin Luther King Jr. Or Amelia Earhart or Steve Jobs in the moment, people are like, ah, this is. You're ruffling feathers. Just be like everybody else, AKA conform, but, like years removed, we look back and we go, wow, these people were brilliant. They were pushing humanity forward. And so whether you agree with all of the rebels that I list, and there's A bunch of others you could come up with. The point is everything is going one way. Culture is going one way at large. Do you like the way it's going? Your micro culture of your family or your church? I mean, there's a lot of church cultures that are going away that I don't like where it's going, the way we do relationship, the way we handle money, the way we think about career and vocation. This is why I love your content so much. As you're like, hey, vocation. Everyone's like incredibly disappointed in their vocation. Like, what is the stat? 70 some odd percent of Americans themselves acknowledge that they're disengaged from work. So you're like, that's not working. That's the conformity, that's the current. It's like a little river. You put your stick in the little river. That's you. If you don't do anything, you're going to go where everyone else is going. It's going somewhere. Do you like where it's going? So to me, it'd be a rebel is just to get out of the stream for a second, look around and say, is this the way I want my family to go? Is this the way I want our finances to go? Is this the way I want my work and vocation to go, my spirituality, my health? Like, these are some of the core areas we talk about in the book. And if not, then where else do I want to go? And no one can tell you what that is like. That's the problem with this rebel journey that I take people on. It's not easy for one reason. We don't know ourselves very well. So I walk you through exercises to figure that out. That's what the rebel framework is going to do. And I will explain what the acronym is. But two, it's not easy because people don't like when you rebel. Everybody wants you to be like them, keep your head down, don't be different. Even if they don't know why, even if they love you, especially if they love you, they're going to be offended or confronted by your different decisions and choices. And that's hard.

Yeah, it's really about intentionality. I think the rebel term can have a lot of selfishness associated with it. But I love when you listed out these rebels in the book. You talk about Earhart and jobs and of course, Jesus Christ, you said, quote, they weren't rebels out of selfishness, rather they were rebels out of creativity and generosity, end quote. I think that's really beautiful way to describe people like Dr. King and Earhart. All right, what's the acronym? What's a rebel acronym? What does this mean?

Yeah. So if you know. My premise is that life is frustrating for a lot of people. A lot of external reasons why. But I think a large part of our frustrations are because we're living out of alignment with our design. And we can go back to that sort of Christian guilt and dreaming. I think that's why we need to figure out who we are. And so to do that and this look, I feel like the Lord helped me in sort of a spiritual download, reverse engineer my story. Because this is not something that, like, for 15 years I've been living and knowing that it's the Rebel framework, He gave me the idea of rebel. He gave me the imagery of it, and then he showed me. This is basically what you've done without realizing it. So this is like me writing this book, bro. Was like me discovering what my last 15 years have been like. But the Rebel framework is simple. The R stands for resolve to dream again. You have to start with dreaming, because dreams are data points. We can get into that. The e, that's the 30,000 foot view of like, what do I dream about? What do I care about? What do I want? What do I desire to do, be, have? And we all primarily suck at dreaming, especially Christians. We can go there. We've been told to not dream. That's selfish. So I would love to have a conversation there if that's interesting to you. But we dream again, resolve to dream again, then we establish the outcomes we want. This is where we get really intentional about vision casting. What does like the rain, you know, the Rayner family want? What is the the vision for the Rainer family or for Jordan in particular? Not just all Christians or all Christian authors or all Christian author podcasters. Like, you're so uniquely wired. Where are you going uniquely? No one can tell you that the B is to break once you have a vision, you can't build that vision yet you have to break negative thoughts, habits and patterns. So we do what I call an inner story audit, which is really powerful for people. We're all living narratives and we're never hearing the true voice of the Lord clearly because it's a still, small voice, it's hard to hear with the default loud inner narrative. The second E is to engage in rebellious new thoughts. So once you've got your dreams, you've got vision, which is on the ground. You're breaking negative thoughts. Now we can engage in new thinking, new Habits like living that intentional new life that we want to live that leads to the outcomes we want. And then finally the L. This is the ironic part of it is you let go of the outcomes that you established and you let go of other people's opinions. This is the hardest part for me because the outcomes give you a target to shoot for. So you're going in the direction that you're wired to go, not what everyone else is doing. But at the end of the day, we know as Christians, we don't control the outcomes, the timing, the terms, if they even happen. But you have more freedom when you, like, live loosely and trust God's perfect timing, and you have clear family or personal values so that when the opinions of others, especially those that love you, come in, they don't derail you because they will derail you. Of like, man, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. You need to know what your values are, so you keep going in that direction. And that's like the process oriented person the whole way. So it's messy, it's not perfect, but that's where it all ends up.

It's really good, man. I love the framework and I want to. I want to come back to maybe towards the end, the story of that download that you felt from the Holy Spirit on this framework. But let's go back to dreaming. You and I both want to go here. Let's dig a little bit deeper. Because I do think in my experience, Christians, more than non Christians, don't feel free to dream. And I think a lot of that is rooted in something good. I think it's rooted in something biblical and the call to be content in all things. What would you say to the believer who's listening today, maybe on New Year's Day, when this episode drops, who doesn't feel the freedom to dream about what's next for their family, what's next for their work, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah. I would say, first of all, I feel you my story, and I've shared it here since I've been on this podcast more than Tim Keller, I'm gonna say those many times possible.

You need to update your bio. Yeah, yeah.

First line in the expert bio. And I've shared my story before, but the short version of it that's relevant here is I felt my whole life God gave me a dream. He wired me to be a musician, to be a performer, to be on stages. And I just intuitively felt from a young age I was meant to be on stage and impacting people and I gravitated towards it naturally and had talent, and it was fun, and it fueled me. And then when I pursued that dream of getting a record deal and it died. And I had to choose between the dream and taking care of my new wife, and I chose that. I knew it was the right decision, the responsible decision. But the mistake I made was I made a subtle agreement that dreaming isn't for me and dreaming actually isn't for anyone. I almost had to create a worldview to make sense of my circumstances, which is you don't get what you dream to be a good husband, man, Christian, father, whatever you need to just get a job, pay your taxes, tithe, be present for your wife, keep your head down until you die. This is why, when I found your first book called To Create, and I found it through, I think one of your reading plans on youversion, I just felt so alive. I felt for the first time that. Wait a second. Wait a second. Maybe I'm not crazy because I had. Here's my problem, bro. If your dream dies and you feel like God gave you that dream, what do you do? Do you blame God? I mean, you could, and you could turn bitter, but I loved the Lord enough to know I can't blame God. So I'm just gonna rewrite the story and say no. I was foolish for thinking that you could get what you wanted, and that was just for kids. And so I basically floated for four years doing the right thing and was literally taught, Philippians, to don't do anything out of selfish ambition, but put other people's interests above your own. And, like, I interpreted that to mean, like, it doesn't matter what you want.

Your desires are irrelevant.

They're irrelevant because it's just about, like, evangelism, and it's about tithing, and it's about serving the poor, and then you die. And then Jesus says, hey, good job, man. You gave up on your dreams and you did the right thing. And then I read your book and others like it and Tim Keller's work, every good endeavor. I mean, so many things that just started to help me understand. Wait a second. We're all wired differently. Maybe the dreams God put in my heart weren't wrong. Maybe that version of the dream just wasn't meant to be. But it was a giant clue as to the way God wired me. And I felt like when I lost my job and we came to Tampa and I'm on food stamps, and I'm like, what the heck am I doing with my life? God said, hey, bro, remember your Love for music. Yeah. Remember your love to impact and encourage people and. Yeah. What if you could use it in a different way? Like, I don't have any other explanation for why I started my business other than the Holy Spirit was leading me through these sort of random questions like, what if you tried this? What if you did this? And all of a sudden, all my desires, my love for recording, my love for music, my love for the Internet, you know, like, I was always interested in the Internet. I was an early adopter of YouTube. Like, I didn't know what I was doing, but I liked all of it. I put it all together and God turned it into this incredible business that changed my life. And I learned, oh, my gosh, desires aren't bad. It's just I have no idea what God's plan is, but I really need to pay attention to the desires God's put in my heart are given to me. Again, Psalm 37,4 stuff. Because it's a clue as to how I'm wired. So my story is I can empathize. If you feel like it's selfish to dream, I think it's selfish to think that your dream is about you ultimately. But it starts with you, like God has. Like, God doesn't lead by pushing us. He leads with desire. He puts dreams in people's hearts for a reason, because he wants to gently pull you along, not shove you into something. So there's some clue there. But if you read the whole book of Rebbe, and I love how the Lord even gave me the ending to it, it ultimately isn't about you. It really is about others. But the only way for you to have the most impact in other people's lives is if you fully show up as who God made you to be. And the only way to figure that out is to tap into your desires and your wants and your hopes and your dreams, big or small, because they just paint a better picture of how God wired you. So if you're a Christian and you love the Lord, don't you want to figure out how he made you? Don't you want to figure out how the designer made you so that you can, in partnership with him, navigate what your best life could look like?

So good. But how do you know if the dream is given you by God or given you by bad sushi?

Right.

Like what? Like how are you personally, Graham, discerning that?

So, yeah, that's a great question. So in the book, like, I walk you through a 50 Dreams exercise.

I'm so glad you brought this up because if you didn't, I was going to ask you. I love this exercise.

I do too. I hated it the first time I did it years ago because it was impossible for me. Turns out I've learned that there's two types of people in the world. The people that this exercise is easy for and the people that it's hard for. And I think the people that it's easy for just have more self awareness and they have less guilt complex around their desires. It's just data to them.

Yeah. So talk through the exercise because I think where it ends is the question of how do you know if the dream is given to you by God or not?

Yeah. So it's simple but hard. Take out a Google Doc or piece of paper and you write down 50 things you want. 50 dreams, big or small. I love Tim Ferriss question. If you were the smartest person in the world and it were impossible to fail, what would you dream of doing, being or having? If you're getting stuck, that's where you could start. And it's like my list will include. It was include being a best selling author hitting New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, the USA Today. It would include owning a beach condo. It would include being able to speak another language fluently. It would include going to Santorini. It would include so for my dad. It would also include having a personal stylist. I just would love someone who could just buy my clothes and make sure I always look good. I don't want to deal with it. Think about it. There's also certain restaurants. I really want to go to this restaurant. Big or small, doesn't matter. The point is to brain dump. And what happens for a lot of us, especially for Christians. Not all, but for Christians. My experience I've found this is that there's a few that you're willing to admit and then there's a few that you're not willing to admit. And it's just weird because it's like bro, it's already in your head. God already knows it. No one is going to look at this other than yourself. And it doesn't mean anything. It's just be honest with yourself and get it down. And the reason why is ultimately we want to take that list once you get to 50. It took me a week to get to 50 the first time by the way. You want to get that list of 50 to 10. If you could only have 10 of these come true, what would they be? And then the reason you do that is to ultimately ask the final question which Is why do I want this? Why do I want this thing? So for example, if I'm like, I want to own a beach condo one day and if that made my top 10, the biggest question is why not to justify your desire? Because I love that book. 10x is easier than 2x. The idea that desires aren't things you justify. They're not needs. It's a want. You don't need it, so you don't need to justify it to anybody. It's just something you want. So it's not to justify the thing you want. The why is so that you better understand yourself. What is it about me, Graham, having a beach condo? What does that tell me about myself? What is it? Well, I really like the ocean. I really like the idea of waking up and I'm already at the beach because I like the beach, but not getting to the beach. I don't like bringing the stuff and I don't like fighting for parking, but I like seeing empty space and I like being able to walk and I get good ideas. And so anyway, you get to just do this stuff that you kind of intuitively know but maybe haven't ever journaled out about. Why do I want this? What is it about having this that is meaningful to me? And that's really the goal. You're kind of doing the research of self discovery. You're doing intel on getting intel on yourself to better understand what fires you up, what you really care about. Because that dream, whether I have a beach condo or not, is not important. What's important is that there's something about the ocean and the beach that matters to me and I need to tap into that because it's going to help me function, it's going to help me thrive, and there's probably something in there that ultimately I can use for self discovery.

So if I was doing this on my own, this exercise, I would use this not just for self discovery but for self gratification and glorified. Right. Like I just know my tendency to chase after things that, yeah, I desire but aren't necessarily truly for my good. So I'm curious for you, like when you've gone through this exercise, have you shared the list with another person as you're interrogating those top 10 to ask why you want it, or is this just you?

I mean, this is just me. I think the advantage the believer has that the unbeliever doesn't have is the Holy Spirit. And we kind of get into this in the book under the the Breaking Negative Thoughts, Habits and Patterns section. Because I feel like knowing what you want, whether it's good or bad, is one thing, but knowing how to operate in the world and make decisions that will ultimately lead to your good and your flourishing is another thing. We're just so limited, and the smartest person just can't always read the future. So in the book, I try to posit it as a voice of intuition. I mean, we talk about Elijah, we talk about the still, small voice of the Lord. But if you don't subscribe to that theory, then you'd have to make up whatever you want that to be. But Christians have the Holy Spirit. The problem is we don't hear the Holy Spirit because what we hear are the default stories and narratives we tell ourselves. So I think if you can do some of the work of clearing your head and then you're hearing the Lord a little bit more clearly, a little more consistently, that's going to be the sort of the winnowing fork that's going to be the filtering process for your desires. Because what I like about the desires is even if, let's say 30 of them are selfish, and I don't know what that even means. Like, if. If it's. Is it selfish or bad to want a beach condo? I don't know. I think it's kind of a neutral decision. But even if they're all like that, the beautiful thing is God's not intimidated by our wants or desires. Right. He's a good father. That says, like, my daughters always wanted snacks at the grocery store, or they wanted goldfish 247 or cookies. I was never upset at them when they would say, dad can have more goldfish, dad can have more cookies, get more donuts. Never made me be like, why are you so selfish? Don't you know that's not healthy for you? That's not good for you. That's not my best for you. I would just smile at them because they're children. They don't know what's best. And I would say, you know, I love you, but we've had enough goldfish for today. How about we have some?

A thousand goldfish is too many.

Yeah. If it's too many, we're going to cut it off there. You know, I was never offended or hurt or judgmental of them because of their desires, but I would just lead them gently. And so I think the Holy Spirit leads us gently when we say, this is what I think I want. What's amazing is part of Walking with the Lord is character transformation. I like the Idea of writing all your wants down. Because if you revisit in 12 months, bro, if you've been walking with the Lord, you probably will look at that list and think, wow, I don't know if I really want half of those things anymore. And there was nothing bad about wanting them a year ago, but you kind of learned, you know what? That car isn't that important to me anymore. Or that thing I thought I wanted my wife to do or be, or, you know, it's. I realized it's a me issue. It's not a her issue. Like, whatever it could be, bro, you're going to see the character transformation and it's sort of data points along the way. It's something you thought you wanted, but the Holy Spirit is the one that's going to say, hey, of these 50 things, here are the two or three that I think truly will bring you life. And you're going to hear that still small voice that whisper. And that's the way, obviously to live in the Christian life is to be in tune with the spirit, man.

So good. It's so good. Did you read the Soul of Desire by Kurt Thompson?

No.

He talks a lot about this. He's brilliant and just talking about, like the Christian guilt associated with desire. Accuses God of subtly of being a really cruel father who's offended by his children asking for something, even though he tells us over and over again in his word to ask for the things that are on our heart. Right. It is ironic he might not give those things because he knows what's best. This is what Jesus is talking about when he's in this ask, seek and knock section. Right? But he wants us to ask. He wants us to. He already knows the desires of our heart. We would be foolish not to just admit those. And it's a blocker to intimacy, I think, with the Lord.

Yes. Oh, so good.

When we're not transparent about what we want because we're hiding. We're hiding something from our Heavenly Father who already knows the thing. Does that make sense?

Oh, my gosh, yeah. Well, think about it in terms of. It's so good. Think about in terms of marriage, one of the most unhealthy things you can do in marriage, and I know, because I've done this, is to not be honest with your spouse about what's wanted and needed in that season. And there are difference between wants and needs. And so I think a healthy marriage is one where you're like, hey, babe, I really want this or need this from you, or in our Family or in our life, whether that's more intimacy or more vacation or I need some time just for me, or to slow down or to speed up or whatever it is. It doesn't mean that as a couple, you're gonna decide to give each other each of the things you want or even the things you need. Maybe you can't even implement the things you need all in that season. But it's so healthy to confess what is wanted and needed. And I love Jamie Winship's definition of confession, which is just truth telling. Just tell the truth of what you think you want and need, and then you can sort of go from there. But, like, it's such a healthy. You said it perfectly. Intimacy is when you can have confession. Truth telling, an intimacy blocker is when you're like, oh, if I write down that I really want a Lamborghini, God's going to judge me. It's like, well, he already knows. And B, he probably thinks Lamborghinis are cool. Like, what's wrong with the Lamborghini? But, like. But that doesn't mean he's going to give you one. Or. But maybe he will. That doesn't matter. But, like, if you like it, that's awesome. I have friends that are car guys, and they. They love cars, they race cars, they spend money on cars. That's neither good nor bad. But it'd be stupid to just lie about what you really want. But let the Holy Spirit show if there's something there that's, like, unhealthy. He's so tender, right? He's so, like. It's the way Jesus interacted with the sinners.

Gentle and lowly.

Yeah. He would interact with the prostitute. Like, hey, I know you're a prostitute. He's not gonna be like, bro, I can't believe you're a prostitute. He's gonna say, hey, I don't condemn you. Now go and sin no more. It's this beautiful, like, no condemnation. Let's just move to health. And that's. I feel like the way the Holy Spirit is when we talk to him about our desires.

It's good, man. I don't think I would have predicted that takeaway when we started this conversation of, yeah, getting honest about the desires of our heart. What we want to see God do in our work this year is a pathway to deeper intimacy with the Lord. All right. Let me ask you this, though. How do you personally chase after the dream, go after what's next, pursue your goals for 2025, and cultivate contentment regardless of the progress.

So are you reading my mail, bro? Are you reading my journal? Or you're trying to expose me on your wonderfully downloaded podcast? I don't have this figured out, bro.

I don't either. This is why I'm asking the question.

This is the thing that I have wrestled with for many years. And if you look in my journal and my time with the Lord, let's say all last year, all 20, 24, I think the word that's going to pop up the most is contentment. It's the thing that I think the Lord has been trying to invite me into. Not force upon me, but invite me into to believe that sort of first Timothy six, like, godliness with contentment is great gain. I just don't think I believe that at a fundamental level. I like it. I want to believe it. But if I believed it, I would lean into contentment more. I know God has given me ambition, and I've wrestled with that and have made more peace with that. As I listen to people like you, as I listen to people like Erwin McManus, as I listen to people that believe that a godly ambition is a great thing. Like, the Apostle Paul was very ambitious. Like, he just like, let's be. Let's fricking go. But I know he's made me ambitious. But, bro, I really suck at contentment. I'm a futuristic high futuristic on the strength finders. I'm a three, which is the achiever on the Enneagram, whether you, like, care about those things or not. Like, I always test similarly, which is I'm thinking ahead and wanting to. This book, REBEL all of 2024 was like, hit the USA Today bestseller list. We did it. You know what I did the next day? Like, what's next? What's next? And that's me. So what the kindness of the Lord has been inviting me into. And my journal is. Shoot, it's over there on the sofa. I wish I had it right in front of me. But what he even told me yesterday was he said, like, he literally said something to the fact of, like, I asked him, what do I need to know today, Lord? And he said, bro, this is it. You've already won. Just relax and enjoy. And it was this invitation of, I know you're pushing and you want better, but you're not even enjoying the sweetness of what season you're in, the gifts you already have. Not because you are ungrateful or aren't appreciative of it, but you're just so in the future that you miss out on the present. And I think he's trying to show me a better way where you literally can think and plan, but reap the rewards now of the sweetness of your season. I hope that 2025 is the year. If we come back in a year and I'm on your show for the fourth time ever, that'll be on my goals for this year, on my vision board. Be on Jordan's podcast for a fourth time. If we come back in a year and say, how was the year? And I say, bro, I learned to walk in contentment. It will have been the win of a century. Because I think what I'm chasing is right there. It's available to me right there. What I'm chasing in the next book, in the next launch of my business, in the next season, I think is actually available to me right now. If I embrace contentment. Because contentment is the state of. And I forget the actual Greek word that's used for contentment, but it really has this beautiful meaning of you don't need anything else. It's not that you don't want anything else. It's like you're sufficiently supplied. Like, you have ample. You have. It's that State of Psalm 23, right? Lord is my shepherd. I don't need anything else. And that's like, what we're all chasing. Is that like that. Do you think about the confidence and the peace and the clarity that would come from, dude, I've got it made. Like, who's got it better than us? Like, nobody. That kind of line. So that's what I feel like contentment is offering. And I. I don't quite have it.

You mentioned Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy's book 10x is easier than 2x, which I really enjoyed. I think the most helpful concept from the book that they turned into another book. I can't remember if it was prior to or after that book is this gap in the gain concept. Right? So I think most people, Christian or not, tend to measure progress between where I am now and where I want to be, the gap between where I am, where I want to go, the gap between goal and reality, vision and reality, dream and reality. But if you just simply turn around the other way and measure the gain from where you are today to where God has brought you to up until this point, that is a secret. I'm not going to say the secret because I think there's deeper layers for this for believers, but I think it is a secret to cultivating contentment. Because the gain that we've made. We were separated from a holy God. We were once God's enemies, Right. And through Jesus Christ, we have intimacy with the Father. We are adopted children of God. And so regardless if the of how much gain you've experienced in the goal, you have eternal gain that has been secured through Christ. And so now I can turn back around and look at the gap between here and there and where I want to go next and where I think the Lord is leading me and find great contentment because of how much time I've spent focused on the gain that Christ has accomplished on my. My behalf. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think it's interesting. There's another pressure there that's in our culture, which is, I think, very relevant to this conversation, which is the pressure of if you have a dream or you have a desire, you have a goal, it has to become a reality now or as soon as possible. And there is this, we say FOMO fear of missing out, but there really is this sort of fake narrative of if it's going to happen, it's got to happen now. And I think that leads us to just live so frantic and so stressed and so sad when we see other people advancing faster than us or getting the thing we want. And it's so interesting how if you even flip that much like the gap in the gain, there's a flip there. If you live under the idea. And it's just fresh on my mind because I just did a podcast episode of this. If you live under the idea that you've got all the time in the world, there's a great Rolling Stone song, Time is on Our side. Like, if you really believe you've got all the time in the world, well, then you can slow down and optimize for the long term and you can enjoy the journey and, like, also be moving and making progress because there's no hurry, there's no rush. As John Maxwell says, you know, if you're good, he's talking about in business and life, if you're good, time is your friend. If you're bad, time is your enemy. You know, so if you're doing good work in the world and you have a servant's heart, like, dude, the longer it takes, that's better, because you're going to develop wisdom. You're going to have more impact. I even, I love this quote. Sergey Brin, co founder of Google I think I read this in a, in a Seth Godin book, maybe the Dip. But he says something to the effect of Like, Sergio was talking about Google. He said it's better for the customer to find out about me and my business later. You know, like, just give me more time to develop and the business to develop or my thoughts to develop. I think as a thought leader, I think of you like, you've created so much thought leadership. And, bro, you've been good from day one. So you're an exception. But I'm sure you would even admit in a way it's better for a podcast listener or a reader to pick up one of your books or your podcasts now versus five years ago or five years from now versus today, because you've just developed more helpful, rich, mature thought leadership.

I want to unpublish stuff, man. I want to. Matt Chandler did this. You can't find old Matt Chandler sermons because he's so embarrassed by the theology. Like, took it all down.

Yeah, that's. That's smart.

Yeah. All right. Hey, I want to step outside of the content of this book, Rebel, for a second, and talk about the making of the book, because I just think this is a great case study of how your faith so powerfully influences your work. Graham, I remember you texting me. I think you sent me an audio message. We trade a lot of audio messages. By the way, you're the first person to get me hooked on audio messages. Congratulations. You got that and beating Tim Geller going for you today.

I love it.

And I remember you saying, yeah, man, I can't really explain it, but I just felt like the Holy Spirit just gave me the outline for this book, gave me the framework for this book. Take our listeners into that experience. What was that like? Where were you? What happened? Talk us through it.

Yeah. This was such a sweet gift from the Lord and a really challenging but beautiful experience. Early 2023, I was spending a day with John Gordon, author, speaker. I've gotten to know him briefly in an event and convinced him, twisted his arm to come over to Tampa and sort of just spend a day with me. I was trying to gain wisdom from him, specifically on speaking. How do I become a world class speaker? I want to know your thoughts on it. Whatever. I had all these 30 questions I'd written down, and before I got to my questions, he said, well, before we get into that, what's the message of your next book? And I had just come off the heels of my first book that you really helped me workshop the idea for, and you helped me get an agent. I owe so much of my authorship success to you. Being a coach and friend and Mentor in that space and really taking the time to push me. So I'm super grateful for you, bro. I will never forget it, but I really feel like I was fresh off the heels of that. I was like, whew. I got a book out in the world, and it was awesome, and I was proud of it, and I had no idea what to write next. I wasn't even thinking about that. And that's all he wanted to know is, what's the message of the next book? And I said, bro, I have no idea. So we spent two hours over lunch thinking about everything and anything I could write about and would be passionate about writing about or made sense to write about. And none of it was really clicking for me. And he finally said, okay, well, just tell me your life story. So I started to tell him my story about wanting to be a rock star and a musician. I just sort of gave him the little bit of it. And how my guidance counselor. I talk about some of these stories in the book, how I didn't want to go to college, and she just gave me a lot of crap for that. I was the only student that wasn't applying to college, and I had to apply. And then all these different things. I just didn't. He interrupted me halfway through. He said, bro, you don't do what people tell you to do. You're a rebel. And it was this weird kind of moment of rebel. No, I've never used that language before for myself. But it was one of those things, Jordan, where in a moment, I felt like I better understood my story when he called me a rebel. Because I realized, oh, yeah. Like, I've always intuitively felt I need to go this way, but my family and my classmates and my church community and other people are going that way. And I feel the tension because I respect all these people for the most.

Part, but I don't feel like that's.

The way I'm supposed to go. What do I do about that? And so I felt like, wait a second, there's something here. And he said, bro, I think your story and just the concept of how you've zigged when everyone else zagged, whether you knew you were doing it or not is meaningful for people and could set a lot of people free. And as a bro, I think there's something here. Let's workshop it. So in that moment, we started to brainstorm rebels in history. Like, what is the definition of a rebel? What are the benefits of a rebel? What are the cons? So all of this stuff happened in A flurry. And he just challenged me. At the end of the day, he said, bro, I think you need to pitch this. This is a book. I think you need to pitch it to your publisher. And I said, they're not going to sign it because they signed me as a business author. This is a personal development book. I don't think they're going to sign it. He said, just pitch it. So I said, I need to think about it, pray about it a little bit longer and see if there's something there. So two days later, I was sitting at Barnes and Noble, of all places, my daughter was at a dance class right next door. And I would just sit there and wait. And I was like, well, Lord, if this is something here, if this is actually a full book, you gotta give me something to write about. Because I can't just like write a blog post and then add 300 pages to it like most people do.

Like most books, right?

Right. Yeah, most books are just a bunch of garbage. And so I was like, I'm not gonna do that and I'm not gonna write this unless this is really something that's meaningful for people and I don't know what to write about. And so I said, so this is what I kind of. It was almost like a fleece moment and I haven't shared this part of the story. I was like, lord, if this is really a book, give me a framework. Just show it to me. High level. What's the journey I would take people through? And I immediately thought in my mind, well, it should be an acronym for the word rebel. And I was like, well, okay, I like acronyms. If that works, great, but I'm not gonna force it. And then it was like I got my Google Doc out and I just saw all of it. Resolving to dream again, establishing the outcome. I just literally saw it. And that's all I had. I wrote that down. And so all I had was like the title Rebel, a paragraph concept and this five part framework that I had not teased out, but it intuitively made sense to me. And I put that on a one pager and emailed my publisher, my editor, Matt Holt, and he's like, when can you have the manuscript in? This is great. I was like, this is not even a book. So the fact that they signed it and they saw potential in it, and John Gordon's like, bro, I think this is a great book. I think you should write it. All of a sudden I knew that God was doing something. So then I was like, well, Lord, I still don't know how to outline this thing. I need you to help me. And so he just, bro, from every step, from the outline to writing, to the stories, to the quotes, to the verses in scripture that he told me, even how to end the book. Which, by the way, if you haven't read it, it ends about a story with demon possession in Mark chapter five. It's the most random, but God's like, this is how you end the book. I'm like, what? I don't understand how this is relevant. He's like, read it again. Read Mark 5 again. And I read it a couple times and then all of a sudden it jumped off the page. What the principle was that made sense of the book. God wrote this book, bro. It was literally like open laptop. Okay, here we go. What am I going? What am I doing with this chapter? And that was the most frightening thing because I didn't feel confident writing it because I didn't know it was any good, because I didn't know what I was writing half the time. And I would have fits and spurts where there would be flow. And God would be like, he would give me an idea. I don't work on vacation, but I remember being in California last or two summers ago, and all of a sudden we were sitting out by the pool of this Airbnb and I got the opening idea for a chapter that I was stuck at and I was like, babe, I don't like to work, but I need to write this chapter right now because God just gave it to me. It was things like that over the course of four months, off and on, the faucet, turning off and on. And honestly, bro, when I turned it into my editor, I was like, I warned her this might be messy. I think there's some gold in here. But it may not be a coherent story or narrative or whatever, so feel free to just chop the heck out of it. And she came back, bro, and she said, this is the most organized or first manuscript I've seen in a long time. I was like, dude, that's the Holy Spirit. Because I literally was writing it almost blind and just not second guessing whatever he put in my head. I just wrote it down and I figured we could cut it later. And all that to say to see 22 year olds read this book and tell me, bro, I thought I had a path I was on and I actually got honest with myself and I hated this path. And I'm going to quit right now before I even start. And I'm going to go build this business or I'm going to go do this new thing or I'm going to become a missionary or I'm going to like a 22 year old feeling like freedom to go do the path they want to do and they feel called to do to 62 year olds that just got laid off who finally felt the confidence and the courage to be honest with themselves about the desires God's put in their heart for decades that they just never had the guts to act on for whatever reason. To see that gap and see it just setting people free, Christian and non Christian, is so exciting. And I really can't take credit for it because I'm really just discovering the message as I wrote it and as I get it out there in the world.

I have to imagine the vast majority of our listeners pray about their work, talk to God about the work. I know very few believers who invite the Holy Spirit into the work, to step into the work. Right. And really do it alongside of them. You haven't always done this like, well, I don't think, what does this look like on a regular basis for you beyond this book, to invite the Holy Spirit to actually do the work alongside you? I'm not even sure I'm framing that question the right way.

Yeah, man, I'm figuring it out. My experience has been and I've grown a lot in the last two or three years in this area. My experience with the Lord in this way has been again, practical level. I run a business is ideas that pop in my head I no longer assume are just my ideas. I assume it's a potential download or something I should pay attention to. So I'm paying more attention. And so flipping it from it might be God, but it's probably me. I'm flipping it to. It might be me, but it's probably God. And I could be wrong, but I'm just flipping that 80, 20, maybe 80% of them are now God. I'm going to assume that. So I will pay attention to it or write it down. And then the next time I spend time with the Lord, I'll ask him about it. So whether it's a business idea, whether it's an opportunity to do something, whether it's just an interesting statement that might be cool thought leadership, I'll write it down, assume it's from the Lord, and then I'll check it with him and I'll sort of ask questions. Like again in the morning when my Bible journal, I'll have conversations with the Lord sort of in my journaling time, like, lord, what do you think about like, I need to launch this new offer. I shut down a couple offers, I know I need to launch something new. I feel like I got this idea for this new community product. What do you think about this? Is this something I should pursue? Is this of you? Is there something here? And I don't always hear stuff or get clarity in the moment, but I do get affirmation of like, green light, green light, green light. Or a more clarifying idea or a finding idea from things. And I can just sense maybe it's someone else mentioned something the next day, or someone asks me a question about, are you going to launch a new community? And I'm like, I just start to. I pay attention better. And I don't assume it's random, but I'm constantly in conversation with him. It's not like a one time, hey, what do you think about this? And then I move on. It's just staying in touch with the Lord about it all the way through. And then to your point about something you said earlier being so open handed with it, of like, if at the last minute God says no, I'm willing to shut it down too and realize that there was a reason for it. And one of my mentors, a guy named Ed Coble, who's a real estate developer, loves the Lord. He's running Ed DeBartolo's $5 billion empire here in Tampa, but he does this all the time. But one example of him was that there was an apartment complex deal they were going to do and they had been doing the research on it for months and it was in progress. They're about to build. And he talks to the Lord every day about this stuff, felt the Lord confirmed it. But one day he's pumping gas and he's just pumping gas and he feels the Lord says, close that deal, don't move forward on that deal. And he's walked the Lord long enough to just be like, well, that was a waste of nine months and money and time. But if you say so, sure. And so they just pulled the plug on the deal. And he to this day has no idea why. But that's the kind of stuff, that's the kind of relationship he has where I feel like God uses our intuition, he uses our intelligence, he uses our experience. And if you're in touch with him every day, even if you don't have tons of time to sit, even if you're a busy mom or dad or like you're in the cart, you got three seconds in the bathroom, like, just invite The Lord, like, lord, I'm moving this direction. Is this wise? What do you have to say about this? He will speak back to you. It might be through a song, it might be through a book. I mean, bro, like, God has spoken to me a lot through some of the passages in your books. And I don't have to be like, why won't God speak to me? He is speaking to me. He gave me Jordan Raynor to write a book that said something that in that moment I needed to hear. And I think that's a lot of times how the Holy Spirit sounds is through other people, if you're willing to pay attention. And so I, I don't know. I don't do this well. But long story short, that's how I do it, man.

It's really good. And I think we got to be careful not to distill everything in our faith to practical frameworks, right? Because God is above us and so much infinitely wiser than us. It's mysterious. We walk by faith. That said, he has given us a mind. He told us to love the Lord our God with our heart, soul, mind and strength. And so what you just shared with me was extremely helpful of working with God in a practical way. One, assume it's him who's speaking, right? Shift the default position to. I assume it's my idea to assume it's an idea from the Lord. Two, follow up with him about the idea in study of His Word in prayer, etc. And then three, watch for him to move. Watch what happens later that afternoon when you've been conversing with the Lord about it. See what conversations he brings into your life. Man, this super good. I've long wanted to. I love Sky Gitani's book with. I've long wanted to write a book called With God Practically At Work because Sky gets practical towards the end of the book. But man, I think you just like outlined the book. Maybe that's the next book for you, bro.

Yeah, well, I think you should write it. So maybe I can just. You can quote me in it. That's right. Or put my face on the front of it. Just joking. But dude, I will say, like, you know what comes up for me is just that John, chapter 15, vine in the branches thing. Like that analogy is so interesting to me. If Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing in that passage. Well, I don't want to do nothing. I want to do lots of some things. And so I want to be connected with Him. And if all he tells us to do in that passage Is stay connected to the vine. I feel like that's what we just outlined is that's how you get the SAP, is you have to stay connected. That's what abiding looks like.

That's how we abide.

Yeah. There's nothing sexy or flashy, but it is a daily practice. And the final thing I'll just say about that is you can't hear the still, small voice of the Lord if you're in a hurry, if you're constantly listening to everything else. If there's just noise internally, like, there is a quieting and a slowing that can aid in your ability to hear and notice when God is moving. Because he doesn't shout very often, unfortunately. Amen.

That's why we have to descent from the kingdom of noise, as I say in redeeming your time. All right, four super quick questions. One, what job do you want God to give you on the new Earth?

Oh, just put me in the buffet line. Like, let me just, like, serve sandwiches or, you know, burgers or those choice.

Meats that Isaiah 25's talking about. You just want to serve the choicest barbecue of all time.

Yeah. Cause then people love you because you're giving them food. But then also you can snack on the, you know, the back of the kitchen whenever you need something.

It's great.

I love it.

What books do you give away the most?

I think we've talked about this before. The Go Giver. I think it just applies to so many areas. If I had to pick one Christian, non Christian, business owner, not business owner. It's just generosity. It's open.

I still haven't read the Go Giver. I gotta do it.

Oh, bro, I would love your take on it. Seriously. Read it in an hour and then tell me what you think of it, because I feel like it's an abundance mindset.

It's that short?

Maybe two. It's a tiny little parable. Yeah, it's short.

All right, I'll read it. I'll let you know. Who do you want to hear on this podcast?

Have you had Erwin McManus on this show?

I've never invited Erwin.

Oh, get Erwin. I would totally listen to that.

That's a great one. I loved. What was the artist book? The artist that he wrote. Gosh, and artists in the title. I can't remember it anymore. Yeah, I read it, like, eight years ago and I loved it. I'll reach out to everyone.

I think your brains together would just be like a mind mill that I would be. I would pay money to Listen to yeah, Coming soon.

Behind the Paywall all right, buddy, you're talking to this global audience of your Christians doing a bunch of different things vocationally. Some of them are entrepreneurs like you and me, but many of them are not. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?

God loves you so much that he put desires in your heart. Pay attention to them. Feel the freedom to pay attention to them because it'll lead to more awareness of how you're wired, it'll lead to more intimacy with the Lord, and it'll lead to a more fulfilling life. Because fulfillment doesn't come from following the crowd or doing what you think you should do in or out of the church. Fulfillment comes from living out the way you're desired. You're designed by the Lord, and that starts with desire. So I would say pay attention to your dreams, your desires, and ask God to come into the conversation with it.

So good. Graham, man, I feel like I could say this with a lot of sincerity given how much I've seen you on and off camera. Man, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. For loving your customers well, for loving our listeners well by just encouraging them to dream with God and for God as they head into 2025. This book's going to help a whole lot of people. It's already helped a ton of people, guys. If you're interested in going deeper into these themes, pick up a copy of Graham's great best selling book Rebel. Find yourself by not following the crowd. Graham, thanks for the three pe, buddy.

Dude, it's my honor and privilege. Love what you're doing bro. Keep it up.

We are setting the bar high for episodes in 2025. I hope you guys enjoyed that one as much as I did. Hey, I want to know who you want to hear on the Be Christians podcast in 2025. Let me know@jordanrayner.com contact thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before. So when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour C.S. lewis's favorite spots in Oxford. Explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a Zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever, and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.