Graham Cochrane (Founder of The Recording Revolution)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week I'm hosting a conversation with somebody who is following Jesus and is also pursuing world class mastery of their vocation and the work that they feel called to. We're talking about each guest's path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. Today you're going to hear from one of the most impressive entrepreneurs I know, a guy by the name of Graham Cochran. Now, if you live in the world of music, you probably know Graham's name, but if you're not in that world, you probably don't. So here's a little bit about Graham. Graham's the founder of the Recording Revolution, a blog about the music industry, the latest recording technologies, and here's what's crazy. He's built a seven figure business. They're doing more than a million dollars a year in revenue, serving more than 20,000 paying customers in 200 countries. And Graham's the only full time employee. He's got a couple of contractors, but it's basically just him. What's even crazier is that when Graham started the business, he had nothing. His family was on food stamps. And what I love about Graham's story is his tremendous humility throughout this whole process. And certainly in retrospect, very much embodies that lyric. All glory be to Christ the King. All glory be to Christ. And he certainly lives that out. So Graham and I recently sat down in our both what we share hometown here in Tampa. We talked about his remarkable story. We talk about how you can turn nearly any style, skill or interest into a profitable content business. And probably my favorite part of the conversation was Graham and I talking about our faith, how faith in Christ provides this continued ambition for our work even after you are financially set. So we're not working just to earn a paycheck. We're working. We have ambition for different things beyond finances themselves. I promise you're gonna love this episode. This is one of my favorites that we've recorded thus far. Without further ado, here's my Conversation with Graham Cochran. Graham Cochran, how you doing, buddy?

I'm doing great, man.

Good. We first met for Coffee Lake. It was pretty recent. Two months ago.

Pretty recent. Yeah.

Conversation just like right across the street and my favorite coffee shop down here in downtown Tampa. So I was really blown away by your story. Right. I think your story is really interesting. I don't want to start there though.

Right.

Let's not give it all away right at the beginning.

Too easy.

Too easy. So we'll get to your story, but first tell us about your business. So we've already talked about Recording Revolution in the introduction. What's your business? What do you do? Who do you serve? Who are your customers? Just give us the basics of on the recording enterprise. Yeah. Or we could do both sides. But let's start with Recording Revolution.

Yeah. So I in that business, I serve musicians who are getting into wanting to record their own stuff. And so they've got maybe a laptop, maybe they've got some recording equipment and they're just trying to make their music sound good. And they're not audio professionals. They don't care to be professionals. Some of them want their music career to be professional. So they know their recordings need to sound good. And they just get on YouTube because they're really frustrated and they're like, why does my stuff sound awful? You know, and then they find me and I show them what equipment they need to use. I simplify it for them. I speak in non technical terms. I speak to them like musicians and then they're like, oh my gosh, this is really helpful. So that's where they meet me and I kind of become like a mentor in that craft of helping their music sound good. And from there, if they go deeper with me, I have online courses and membership sites where they can dive on deeper and get better at that kind of thing.

That's great. So you've had that business for 10 years?

10 years. Next month it'll be 10 years.

That's awesome. And then recently, let's call it a year ago or so, you launched this personal brand. Graham Cochrane. Give us the real quick hit of what that business is.

Yep. Teaching people how to start on online passive income style businesses based around what they know, what they're good at, sharing knowledge and information and how to either scale that if they're starting out, or a lot of people who want to leave a full time job and branch out into creating a business, I teach them how to do that.

And you have a lot of authority on that topic. Right.

So doing for A decade.

That's what you've been doing for a decade. So. All right, let's talk about the story. I gave a little bit of hints of this in the introduction, you know, and I'll just say this. We've been working together for two months. You remember Mike, Collaboratory for founders, which we can talk about later on. But you're just. You're. I've been very impressed. You're a masterful entrepreneur. You really know the craft. You know how to serve your customers well. But you didn't always really see yourself as an entrepreneur. Right. You fell into this how? I think a lot of entrepreneurs fall into business. So this path to mastery of mastering this vocation of entrepreneurship is really interesting to me. Tell us about the story. Just take us back from the beginning, maybe pre. Even moving to Florida, and tell us how this all happened.

Yeah, I tell people I'm like the unlikely fearful entrepreneur because I feel like people like you, from what I'm gathering.

Yeah.

Had vision at some point. I know your story has changed, too, in terms of what it was you wanted to pour yourself into. But I never seemed to have much vision other than the music career. You know, I wanted to be the rock star. That was where my.

What did you play?

What is. Yeah, so I. Guitar. I'm a singer, songwriter, guitar, and single.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Have we talked about the fact that I was in a rock band in college?

No, but I was reading about that somewhere. I was on the Interwebs. And you were like, a keyboard player.

Yes. Yes, dude. It's just I was so out of my element, so I was in this band.

I'm trying to picture you.

Yeah, okay, so picture. You're like typical rock musician and go a mile past that in the opposite direction, and that's what I look like. I saw a picture the other day of me. I was wearing a Tampa Bay Buccaneers T shirt on stage at the Beta Bar in Tallahassee playing keyboard. It was absurd. I was.

So did you have long hair or anything like that?

No. So at one point I had pretty curly, like, borderline Afro hair.

Okay, so we have the same hair then. That we both secretly hide. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. Please keep this thing under wraps. But, yes, I was in band. I put piano. Most people don't know. I was a vocal major at Florida State for six weeks. Yeah. Until I basically did it just so I could say on a podcast 10 years later that I got into the Florida State School of Music. It worked. It worked. But, yeah, I quit in six weeks because I wanted to make money smart. It was probably a good decision. So anyway, sorry. You want to be a rock star.

So yeah, we have a similar background, so that was, that was like the only vision. When I see entrepreneurs that have a vision, it's very appealing to me in a romantic way of like, dude, I wish I had a vision for that. The only thing I had a vision for was music. And what's interesting is God used a lot of that in my story to actually help me with my business. But I got to a point where I let that dream die, that vision die, and just try to do the good thing and get a job, air quote, you know, and be a good Christian and take care of my wife. And we were part of a church in Virginia that we loved. That's where I really started to get discipled and bought into the idea of church planning. And after being in a small college town for a while, my wife and I felt like we were up for an adventure. And she was looking actually into counseling psychology. Maybe we're looking at different schools, we might move around. So we were already mentally ready to leave. But then my pastor and buddy at the time was saying, hey, we're going to go plant a church in the South. Originally was going to be around University of Georgia in Athens. And then God sort of shifted us to Tampa to be near usf. But he said, do you want to come? Do you want to help out with the worship band? And so for me and my wife, it was just an opportunity to say, hey, let's just go and serve God on a volunteer basis. Be a part of something new and have an adventure.

Yeah.

And that was.

This was pre kids, right?

Oh, yeah. So we were pregnant at the. Around that time we were in the sort of like year long, praying, team building phase, but no kids yet that were tagging along.

So you moved down to Florida?

Moved down.

What happens next?

Well, you know, we picked the right time to move in the middle of a global recession.

Right, right, right. Ideal time.

Especially move to Florida. It was hard. Florida got hit hard. So coming from another place, I didn't realize how tough the job market was. Specifically in Florida. All I needed was a job to get me down there. I didn't need it to be my perfect career. But it was hard to find. I had 50 interviews. 50 interviews for low level jobs. I just need something. I got a job in the financial services, helping with debt consolidation. I was like, I just was like all, you know, smile and dial.

Dial for dollars.

Yep. And we got that job. Paid just enough base for me to, like, qualify for a mortgage. Get down here. We had our first baby, then they ran out of money four months into it.

So now the business.

The business, yeah. So now we're down here planning a church, which is like starting a business. We don't know what we're doing. I run out of employment, and we don't know anybody really. And the people we came down with, they're not connected either. So I. In that moment, I felt like, okay, so I have some savings. I thought. My plan was I have a freelance skill of recording and mixing bands. Because as a musician, that became my trajectory of. I also got into recording and audio engineering, went to college for that. And I'd been doing that on the side. So for me, that was easy, you know, transactional. But I didn't know anybody locally, so it was harder to try to call up previous clients and do remote work. So my scramble was try to get as much freelance work as I could. And that's what I thought. If I could get some freelance work, maybe my wife could do some part time photography work and maybe we can patch this all together.

Yeah.

And that was the soup in which I kind of started the recording revolution.

Yeah. So it really started. You were doing freelance work for hire.

Oh, yeah.

But how did you get to this point where you're like, all right, I don't want to be doing this. I want to record YouTube videos and produce this, like, educational content?

Because I didn't. I never made that decision. It just like, happened. It was how God led me. So I. Between a conversation I was having with my wife one time we had somebody over for dinner who's a musician, and he asked the same questions about Graham. What audio equipment do you need to buy? How do I use it? And my wife had this sort of funny moment where she's like, babe, we've had so many of these guys over and you're always telling them the same thing, giving them the same advice. I could tell them what to buy at this point. I could tell them how to use it because I know the script. She's like, you should just write this down for them so we don't have to keep having them over for dinner. And I have to listen, you know, just create a little recap.

I'm sick of having people over dinner.

Is basically what she was saying, but in a nicer way. And so that idea was planted of what if I created a little resource for my friends? And then I thought, you know, what if I actually turn that into a blog on My freelance site and put some content out there in the world, maybe people would discover it, see what I'm doing in the studio, see a couple of videos, see that I'm credible, and they might hire me to finish their projects or something.

Sure.

That was all as far as I thought of. I would create some content to get some freelance work.

So is that how it worked? So you were creating content where you were getting freelance gigs as a part of that?

That was the go.

And so. But when did you make the shift? There's a pretty big shift there from being a service provider and doing freelance contract work to what the business is now, which is basically SaaS. Right. Online education software as a service. Right. I come to the website, I buy a course, and I'm good to go. How did that happen over time?

Well, so when I'm putting out content, thinking that it'll just prove credibility of my skill and people want to hire me, what ended up happening is like, people found the content somehow. They found the early YouTube videos, they liked them, and then they would leave comments and say, hey, this was really helpful. Like, no one's explained this like this way to me. Or I finally understand said concept. Could you do another video on this? Or could you explain how to do this? And so there was more, you know, requesting for more content. So if you can picture having no day job, so there's plenty of time on my hands right in between freelance work that I could scrape together from past clients. Felt like I needed to keep myself busy. I needed to go in my home office and feel like I was doing. I needed to control something. Right. Because I felt like my whole life was out of control. So I needed to control something. So all I could control was helping these people, the smaller group of people, and like, sure, I'll shoot some videos, sure, I'll write some articles. But I thought I was filling time for the thing that God was going to do, which was bring me some freelance work. But what he was doing was, was developing me as a content creator and educator and. And helping me build an audience. And I didn't realize it took me a couple of months, but really, in the scheme of things, wasn't very long to realize maybe this is the thing over here, the content.

Yeah.

That people are more interested in. And so I decided to, like. I almost think you were describing this in your book Master, when you were talking about Call to Create and how that book sort of. It kind of took off in a way.

You're like, oh, it's like this, like Divine multiplication. You can't explain it when you see.

God's hot hand on it, you know, like in sports, who go with the hot hand when you see God's hand on it, you know, unless the Lord builds the house, those who labor labor in vain. So I'm laboring on the freelance side. It's kind of working. I'm not even trying hard. And the audience is seemingly growing on the. I wasn't making money on the content, but you could see momentum. And so I was smart enough to at least try to get behind what was happening here and say, well, let me give that a little bit more of my attention.

Yes. So the reference to Master of One, this episode's airing before the book's out, so Graham's oh, no, this is great. I want it. Hey, you're like, throwing softballs to, like, talk about the book. So the episodes there before the book comes out, you've read an advanced copy. And so the story Graham's referring to, I think about this a lot, actually. And you just illustrated it really well. Right. Like, I think when. When you're. When you're thinking about finding your thing, right? Or the thing, whatever that work is that God has called you to in this season of life, be on the lookout for where the Lord is multiplying your efforts far beyond what you can take credit for in your own feeble inputs. Right. So. And I' tell the story of Master of One about how, you know, as an entrepreneur, you know, I've had a good deal of success in my career, but most of that's been, like, pretty proportional to the amount of effort I put into the endeavor. Right. It was a pretty like, if it always felt like this, like one for one match. And then when called to create came out. Right. The community listening to this podcast has just taken off where it's at such a great scale that I truly. I don't know how this happened other than the Lord has blessed this and has multiplied that. So I think that's a good way wisdom for anybody looking for, like, what that thing is. It may not be the thing that you originally had intended, but be on the lookout for how the Lord is moving around you and where he's multiplying the impact, even if it's something that's not immediately generating revenue. Because for you, that wasn't the case.

Right? So don't be stubborn. Like, don't do the thing you want to do at the expense of the thing God's like, just putting his hand behind. Because the only negative about Making content was, well, how will I monetize this? Right? That was the only question. My wife, she saw the same momentum. I saw that, like these, how are these people finding your videos? You just put them out, like nobody knows who you are, you don't have a big following. But they're finding them and they're connecting with them. So there's something here. So. But that it sounds nicer to say now, 10 years removed, but in the moment, right, painting the picture. There was 18 months where because we were out of money, we burned through our savings and because we weren't making hardly any money, my wife asked me to apply for food stamps because she had a friend whose husband lost a construction job, right. And they were on food stamps. And she was like, I didn't realize how much money, money you can get for groceries. This would be very helpful. And there was a whole internal battle there where I refused. I told her, no, I'm not applying for assistance because I've always had a job and I went to college. And that's just, we're not those kind of people. There's a lot of disgusting pride. If you think back, if I think back to the way I thought about was a really humbling moment of like, that's not me. And if I sign that application or apply for it, I'm waving the white flag and saying, I'm a 26 year old, I've never really amounted to much and I'm a failure. So there was a lot deeply going on there. I finally relented because she asked again. And so if you picture I'm in this soup of I can't believe I have to go to the store with my EBT card, that's the big American flag on it. It's got a little slicker now, or I think you can hide it a little bit now. But now me and the cashier both know that the government's paying for my groceries. And so I just, that that was a lot of shame there for me. And then when you're in that I'm trying to build this content brand, I don't even know what it is. I don't even know if it was a thing. I didn't know the model that I know now. So I'm just, I know there's momentum, but I don't know how to monetize it. And having to convince myself that I'm not wasting my time and I shouldn't just go to Home Depot and get a job and having to see family members who ask you hey, what are you working on?

Right, right.

I started a blog and a YouTube channel on audio recording. You know, it's like.

Right?

And they're like, they get it from a hobby standpoint. Oh, yeah, that's your skill. But, like, how does. How does that make money? It's just. Those are hard conversations.

But isn't.

Yeah.

So this is part of what I love about your story. Right. Like, part of that's like a leap of faith. Part of that is recognizing that there's something here. And I think the something is you knew you were loving people really well. These people were talking back to you and saying, you're solving my problems. Right. And so it's like, yeah, I don't know exactly how this is going to make money, but I know I'm loving my neighbor as myself. And the Lord is multiplying this beyond what I can reasonably expect. I mean, were you thinking in that moment, hey, this is clearly the Lord. I'm going to trust them and go down this path? Was that conscious or is it just in retrospect that you see that?

No, no, it was definitely the Lord because my personality is very much like, try to do the right thing. If you're an Enneagram person, I'm a one on the Enneagram. So I want to do the. There's one right way, and I'm gonna do the right thing. And so I also had been beat into my head, you know, provide for your family. So to me, to try to start a business would be selfish. This is my dream. This is what I want to go build at the expense of dragging my family through, you know, some uncertainty. So I thought the right thing would be to have certainty in a paycheck. So to be working on this business that made no money went against everything I wanted to do in my flesh. So I was relenting to seeing some momentum and trying to trust the Lord, but every day, like, beating my head against my desk, like, is this a good use of my time creating content or not? And so it was definitely hard at first.

So fast forward 10, nine, eight years, right? Where's the business? Let's just talk recording revolution. Where's the business at today? Rough revenue team. Audience size.

Yeah. So it's. It does about a million dollars a year in revenue. It's about half a million viewers on YouTube every single month.

And you're the only full time employee.

Yeah, I got two contractors. It's crazy, man.

It's wild.

It is wild.

It's wild. I bet in, like, you know, People listening to this podcast know this. I'm all in on, like, content as a business model. Like, this business model makes sense. Like, I'm just a big fan of content businesses. Right. Like, moving forward, I think that it's a really interesting niche to be in. So, all right, you read Master of One, or you are reading Master of One. I'm really curious what you think your one thing is. Right. Because on the one hand, like, I could easily see it being. I do think it's super broad, by the way. Like, I think it's either entrepreneurship or teacher. Like, you're an exceptional teacher. Like, if you go. If you just Google Graham Cocker and watch his YouTube videos, he really is a masterful teacher. What is your one thing?

I think it is teaching, slash encouraging, slash encouraging.

Interesting. Is that a part of teaching?

To me it is.

Yeah.

But it's the way I like to teach and be taught. Right. Because there's different styles. So when in Master of One, you talk about, you know, there's examples of guys that are, like, super zeroed in on what their one thing is, and it's very dialed in.

Super specific. Yeah.

And then you use CS Lewis as an example. Right. Where his superpower, his one thing, is actually teaching.

Very broad.

Very broad. So as a professor, as obviously on the radio, like, you know, Mere Christianity was a radio program originally, and just sharing and teaching, and he has a way with analogies. And I don't want to compare myself to CS Lewis, but when you made that connection, I was like, that makes more sense for where I feel like I'm at. I thought my one thing was music as a musician, like, industry. Right, right. And then so the challenge was like, I gotta be an expert at my craft to be able to teach this. And then I've realized, which helps me now in this other business where I'm helping other people teach what they know, expert status isn't needed. It's not just knowing the craft to be a teacher, that's another skill set. And so there's people that know audio better than I do, but cannot teach it to save their life, or if they do, they're so boring, God help them. They're so boring.

Right, right.

And so being able to.

It's an academic.

It is. Yeah. And that's not what everybody needs. There's a place for that on the YouTube world. I'm realizing I have an ability to communicate an idea and simplify it down so that someone understands it, understands it, feels like they can do it, and is motivated to Go do it.

Yeah.

And like, those are really important to me when I'm teaching. So I feel like maybe that's what the gift is. And I'm shifting that over to now business. So I'm not the best business person or the best audio engineer, but I can teach those things that I know.

Yeah, that's interesting. And for those of you who haven't read the book yet, I do talk a little bit about this, and I think it's like an interesting distinction. I think when people hear the title Master of One, it can be intimidating. It's like, what is my one thing that I'm going to be great at in this season of life vocationally? But I do think most people's one thing is really broad. You mentioned C.S. lewis. His one thing was not writing. Right? His one thing was not. He did a lot of different things. But as I sat down with his stepson and was talking about Jack's story, he was like, no, like, Jack's one thing was teaching. He was a masterful teacher and he applied that in a few different contexts. He applied that to fiction, to writing nonfiction, to teaching people on the BBC and all those different things. I think that's interesting. So for you, your one thing's teaching. Encouraging. How have you pursued mastery? How have you gotten world class at that thing? How have you developed those skills?

Just a lot of it. What I love about being a content creator is it pumping out a ton of videos, pumping out a ton of doing a lot of webinars. Just the more. The more I teach and then get feedback, which I love about the Internet because then you can get instant feedback as to which videos are landing or not or where am I not clear? Or what's interesting to me is what are my distinctives in my brand? So in the audio space, I was just teaching all things audio recording. And then it became very apparent early on, okay, people tune into me because I focus on these three things. Like, for me, it's. He's all about championing affordable equipment. So I'll make fun of the people that say, you need a thousand dollar microphone. You can do it with a hundred dollar microphone. And there's a couple of different things that became gramisms that people realize and they either like or don't like. The distinct is, oh, Graham, if you follow his audio videos, he's gonna land in this camp. And now. And I'm having to relearn that in the online business space. Now, if I'm teaching business, figuring out what is it that I am distinct about and the way I think about business. And then the more you share it and teach it, you're repeating it. And as an author. I'm not an author. Maybe yet, maybe I will be. But like I'm sure as you were when you were kind of doing all the rounds with called to create a lot of the stuff in the book that you would repeat or your main things, the main course, you start to get really dialed in on what you know are your big things and your big topics. And that just comes from doing a lot of it. So I think it's kind of messy at first. You're throwing out a lot of here's what I know. But then finding out what connected with people and just like with the hot hand, like which business or opportunity, it's the same thing. Which content of mine am I going to get really behind?

It's looking for feedback. So we look for feedback from the Lord and trying to understand like where he's moving. But every masterful entrepreneur I've ever talked to, ever has mentioned in some way, shape or form this idea of humbling themselves and listening to customers obsessively, listening to the audience obsessively and like really understanding them.

Right.

And that's a form of loving your neighbor as yourself. And it's how it's so simple, right? But it's also really hard. It's hard to get that feedback, especially when it's critical, especially when something's not working and admitting that. So in the book I talk about discipline over time as one of the three keys to mastery. You know, it's a theme I certainly see in your story. You spent 10 years. You know, people look at recording revolution like, oh my goodness, a million dollars. One full time employee, two contractors. This is crazy. But you spent 10 years building this thing. Well, more than the 10,000 plus hours that Anders Ericsson says we need to do in purposeful practice to get masterful at our one thing. So I guess my question for you is what encouragement would you give to somebody who's earlier in that path to mastery? They just started the blog, they just started that YouTube channel. Maybe they're a content creator, maybe they're starting to write a book or starting a business. What encouragement do you have for them? Is the fight worth it? Is the fight for 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 hours of practice worth it?

100%. So I tell people, if you can have 30 minutes a day, you can do this because you see the people pumping out a ton of content. Well, if you don't have that kind of time. You don't have that kind of time. I would rather work on trying to get one article out a week, one video out a week, just one thing out, you know, because you need to do a ton of it to get good at it, for one. But you need to start because the way the Internet works, at least if you're going to be content focused or be online, is you only have credibility if you have content behind you. You know, the YouTube channel, if you're looking at how to fix a car and you go to two YouTube channels and one guy's got two videos and one guy has 200 videos, you just trust the guy with 200 videos, even if he's awful, at least initially. Yeah, because he's been at this for a while and the algorithms support that. But I think there's just the get started aspect of, you don't know a. Like you said, what the customers want until you put out a ton of content.

Right.

I was just talking to Theron, one of the guys in our collaboratory, just this morning. He was interested in creating content. He was asking me about it, and I was talking with him about where he wants to create content, and he was thinking about what product is. Like, you don't even know what product to make yet, so don't worry about that. Just become known in some little corner of the Internet for what you're good at and help these people create content and then learn where they're getting stuck and where they want help to go deeper. And that'll clue you in onto what to build. But we don't know until we get started. So it's. It is the ultimate learn as you go thing. But it's a really safe place. I think the only hangup, and I was talking about this with someone recently, is people are afraid to make content because you're developing in the public eye. Yeah.

But when you're starting out, you're not. Right. Like, I tell a lot of entrepreneurs, whether they're content entrepreneurs or not. Like, you know, when nobody knows, you embrace that, take advantage. It's the best time. You can make all sorts of mistakes. Like, you know, we're launching this podcast after we've got two books, after we've got, you know, this big email list. And it was funny, I was thinking about, like, man, if we didn't have those things, I could do whatever I want. I didn't need this fancy microphone or this, like, soundproof room. Right. But, like, we got an audience that we can't afford to make those types of mistakes. So take advantage of being unknown. Like, that's such a beautiful place to be. You can experiment and be so much more artistic and creative and just, you really have nothing to fear at that point. So I want to go back to something you just said. I talk about this a lot with a good friend of mine who's way smarter than me about content and the trajectory of, like, content businesses. I think a lot of people are exhausted on content. I think a lot of people at this point feel like I already have too many podcasts, I already have too many book recommendations. But I agree with you that we're at the beginning of this wave of content and it's only going to grow. Like, why do you say that? Beyond the obvious, like, the Internet's ubiquitous. Why are we at the beginning of this content wave?

Okay, no one knows the future. I don't know the future. But what we've seen in the last, let's say, 10 years, like, I think I was really fortunate to start creating content when I did in a lot of ways. But I think like, that wave will look like nothing in the scope of the next 50 years. Like anyone starting in the next 5 to 10 years will be at the beginning of this wave. Because we're still. People are still clued into the idea that, huh, you can learn something online. Not just like a helpful little tip, but I can learn a whole career worth of education with college, you know, expenses getting crazy. And we're seeing how that's gonna. I mean, the next generation is gonna be really confused. Is college or even really worth it? And for some people that's a no brainer, but it's almost not the no brainer once was. People still need quality education and in the gig economy. And there's something like, sometimes you just need to learn enough to do one thing well to make some money over here so that you can do your other thing over here. There's gonna be more need for people to get information online that's professional, that's good. And I still think people are still so new to this idea. So there's one. It's not new to me because I've been learning online forever and I wasn't new. People were teaching stuff online in the 90s and like making a living off of it. But I think there's a lot more people like realizing, like, even with Masterclass. You ever see Masterclass?

Yeah, yeah, I love Masterclass.

They're kind of late to the game, but all of a sudden be like, oh, gosh you could learn how to do whatever from so and so. Yeah. That's been going on forever, but now they just have celebrities. Yeah. You know, getting a nice advance to, like, shoot a video, do this thing. I think you're gonna see more people accepting Internet as a legitimate way to learn. But then here's the thing. The problem with content, because what you said was spot on. Like, people are, like, overwhelmed. Overwhelm is the problem. There's just too much. So we're almost seeing people rejecting content because there's just too much. And there's this built in guilt and shame of, like, I haven't listened to all of Jordan's podcast episodes that are.

You should feel guilty. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why I said that.

Sneaking that in, you know, so there's.

That, like, all the good stuff I want to watch or listen to, but I'm so busy. Or it's. You get online to learn how to do something and everyone's telling you a different way to do it.

Yeah.

Just take like, what are you supposed to eat? Is keto okay? Is it plant based? Like, carnivore diet? So overwhelming because there's so much. What people need now is to combat the overwhelm. We need content creators who will come in and simplify. So I think because of there's so much overwhelm, there's so much more opportunity out there for a new content creator who will come out. Not just throw everything at somebody, but look at their niche and say, where is their confusion? How can I help people? Just have some clarity of step one, do this.

Yeah.

Step two, do this.

It's the Dave Ramsey model. He's like the ultimate master. Absolutely right. Like, they have made getting out of debt not the process. Right. But the communication of the process. Super simple to understand. Right. Baby. They literally call it baby steps. Right, Exactly. Hey, so. So I'm obsessed with people's routines and habits. I'm interested in yours. So let's talk about a typical day for you. From the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. What does the day look like for Graham Cocker?

So it's changed in the last year because we put our kids in a different school and it's farther away and they go to school way earlier. So my morning got much earlier in.

The last 12 months.

So in the last year, it's been on a good day up at around 5, because from 5 to 6 is like the only quiet time in the house that I get before I got to get everyone out the Door. So. So that's like time to pray, drink coffee so that I can be awake to pray, read my Bible and just be. Sometimes I just sit in the quiet house because it's quiet and I have a lot to do mentally. So I just try to sit and listen because I don't listen a lot from the Lord. So just sitting. Sometimes I don't know if I'm like hearing anything, but that's the five to six, but then six it's like getting my girls out of bed and we're packing lunches, getting them out the door quickly in the next 45 to 50 minutes because we're leaving at 6:55 in the morning to take them to school. So that's the morning. But my wife and I alternate what days we're taking them into town to school. We got this place downtown so we can work downtown if we need to. But I work Mondays through Thursdays and I basically am about 9 to 2 and I'm not really good in the afternoons. I'm usually brain dead and I've pretty much gotten super efficient with the work so that I only need a few hours a day to chip away at both brands. So by two o' clock I'm usually done and either picking up the kids from school or I just get out of my home office and go for a bike ride or go for a walk or clean up the dishes or something. And it's just Monday through Thursday and then pretty much the afternoons and evenings we're just home with the family. So I just try to get the big things done in the morning basically.

So those afternoons when you're doing dishes, when you're going for a bike ride, is that when you have your best ideas?

Yes. If I go for a walk around the neighborhood, what's an example of one of them recently? So.

And where did the idea come from?

Yeah, yeah. So last month I launched this new membership site on the Graham Cochran brand to help entrepreneurs who already kind of already started their little online business grow it. So not the basics of how to get started, but they're stuck. How to grow it that was going on a walk. A few months ago, I had just launched a second product that didn't do well. It was advanced content on how to grow things, but it's really good. But I don't know if the positioning was wrong, but it just didn't click with my audience. A few sales just didn't do what it should have done and I was frustrated. I'm going for a walk and like what do I do with that content? It's so good. Where did I miss it? What do my people really want? And thinking about a lot of the feedback I've been getting and realizing people have so many questions. They want a lot of hand holding. They don't want to be alone. All the stuff I kind of knew just kind of came and I was like, I need a membership community for this brand. I didn't actually want to build one because I didn't really want to do it personally. But it's what people seem to be asking for. So I kind of fleshed out, what would it look like? What would the price point be? How involved am I going to be? How's it going to help them achieve their goals? It all came together on a walk, like, months ago, and then that's when I got back in my calendar. Okay, how long would it take me to build this out, what my promotional calendar look like? And so we just launched that a month ago, and it did phenomenally well. And I'm in there helping people. So that was the result of clarity for me. I get a lot of feedback from listening to customers, but for some reason, it doesn't connect until I'm out on a walk.

Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. There's. I think Cal Newport said this in Digital Minimalism.

It's a good book.

It's a great book. He was. I think he was quoting somebody else, but he's like, there's never been a good idea that, like, didn't occur during a walk. Right. Like, didn't occur during solitude. That might be right.

When you're in motion. It's the same when I ride a bike.

Yeah.

Because I got into cycling two years ago. I have. My neighbor is a cycling coach who got me to cycling, but he always said, when I'm riding, when I'm physically in motion, I just get so much clarity of thought. I don't know what it is about moving and obviously visual stimuli being outside, but. And I've heard so many people say they just start to walk around the block in the city or walk around their office or go out. I don't know what happens in your brain, but so much makes so much sense.

Yeah. So you talked about launching new products. Right. You and I have talked about ambition a couple of times. Right. So I want to talk about this for the good of. Really for the good of us, but also hopefully. Hopefully the good of listeners.

It's all selfish.

It's all. They're very. These are very selfish questions. That's all I Ask on the call to mastery. You don't have financial incentive to grow your business for you. You're making plenty of money. Right. You have a very little, very small cost structure. And yet I do see you being ambitious for these projects. Right. You talk about listening to your audience and what they need and wanting to deliver a solution to them. So why are you still going? What's driving? Obviously, I love it, and obviously I think I know what this answer is, and that's why I'm asking. But, like, why are you still ambitious for these brands?

Okay, so I'm on the fence. There's two sides of the fence. The way I view it, I view it as from the selfish standpoint, and I don't mean that word in the negative sense, but like, from what I need out of the business. Because I started this business out of a need. Right?

Right.

We're on food stamps, have no money, and I just want to provide. That was solved within two years of the business and then grew beyond what I needed it to be. And then we had some fun. And then, then I realized, oh, this is a whole different thing. And now I have to learn about stewardship in a way that I never thought I'd have to. I always was like, like tithing as a Christian and all these things. But you don't know how hard stewardship is until you're given more to steward. Then you realize there's a lot of interesting emotions that come depending on your personality. So that's been a whole different ball game. But on the selfish, what do I need for my family? That's covered. So on my days when I'm tired, or on my days when I'm just like, why am I keep pumping out content? Why do I have two brands? Now when I'm asking myself these questions, it's because I'm like, I just want to take a break.

Yeah.

And I take plenty of breaks. But it's part of me just wants to, like. I start to, like, get on. I'll get on Google and look at all the early retirement blogs. The fire movement. Right. Financial independence, retire early. I start to dork out with these guys. I'm like, why don't I just retire in my 30s? Like, I could do that. And that's the side of me that's like, I've got everything I need. I'm tired. Don't I deserve a break? And then it sucks being a Christian because then you've got. Don't quote me on that guy. But, you know, like the, the Holy Spirit Sorts of convict you of like. But it's not about you. Right. God gave it to you as a gift, but it's not just about you. So if it's not about you, what else is God doing? Okay, so it's about also the people that I'm serving. And so when I look at, let's say, the recording revolution brand, the first one, I didn't start a second business because that one was dying. I started it because God told me to start something new. Like, you've got this other thing you can share, so don't just keep it to yourself. Now unload everything you know about online business from the last decade. But he's only blessing the first one still, so he hasn't closed the door. So he's telling me there's still people out there that I can serve. So when I read Called to Create and really that sort of sealed the deal with every good endeavor. Started it. And then you sealed the deal. And that's why those two books are so good.

Literally the best compliment I've ever received. Yeah, well, dude, connecting those two in.

The same conversation, because that kind of gave me verbiage to understand one reason why to work, which is love, neighbor, self and serve and create culture and just do literally make the world a better place in the cheesiest sense. Like in my little corner of the weird audio universe, like audio engineers and musicians, I can make musicians better and their recordings better than all the people they touch. Right. And so if I can still help people, I should, as long as God hasn't told me not to or I just hate it, or it's at a detriment to my family. So there's the. Because it still helps reason. And then personally, and we know this as entrepreneurs too, I love entrepreneurship because of not only can you help people, but you can create wealth. You sent out the awesome passage in Deuteronomy. I think it was Deuteronomy, right about it's really. God gives us the power.

Yeah. Wealth and honor come from you alone, for you rule over everything. Power and might earn your hands. And at your discretion, people are made great and given strength.

Absolutely. So it's not us that make the wealth, but we're the ones God's called to do the physical work of creating the wealth. And having been an employee and being on that track my whole life and growing up with two employees for parents and not having an entrepreneur in the family. So never understood. I understood you make money one way, you work and you earn it. Now being on the entrepreneur Side, I see it as like, entrepreneurs are the future for any kind of ministry because. Right. All ministries, the only way they make money is to fundraise.

Right.

Which is a skill set. But it's the skill set of asking entrepreneurs for money, basically, or someone. Someone who's got money. So the responsibility that we have the ability to create wealth, to fund charities, ministries, anything, or just even help your neighbor, that side of it is really important to me too. And maybe it's because God had me start my business literally the same month we were starting a church. And seeing them run in tandem of like, I've been a part of a church plant for 10 years, I've been a part of a business for 10 years. And seeing how it not only the business helps my life and then helps the millions of people I'm reaching through this crazy YouTube channel. But being able to fund my church and then other ministries from it, seeing the importance of it, I see the connection of, if I can, and I'm not dead yet, create as much wealth as possible with the goal of being able to fund as many ministries as possible. Why not?

Yeah, I think you have like a really holistic view of the purpose of profit, which I talk about in the. Called the. And called to create. Right. So you do have this perspective of, I keep going, I continue to be ambitious for my work because it creates wealth and because that wealth can be used to be generous. But you also don't see that as the exclusive purpose of profit. Right. You see the purpose of ambition to keep going and serving those customers well. Right? There are people who have problems. I know how to solve those problems. You'd almost be a poor steward of that knowledge and those skills and the opportunities that the Lord has put in front of you, not to capitalize on it and bring solutions to market and solve those people's problems.

Here's the crazy thing. In my business, if you're a content creator, 90 to 95% of the people you serve don't pay you for something.

Right?

So it's not even. I'm not even making profit.

It's like the ultimate form of generosity.

So in that way, it's even more important. It's like, dude, if I stop, all these people who don't pay me will lose out too. So it's not even just my customers.

I love that. So you're a member of my newly launched. We actually haven't talked about it that much. We sent one email to my list about this, the master collaboratory for founders, which is basically just A fancy way of saying it's a community group for really high caliber Christian entrepreneurs. We've been doing this for a few months now, meeting once a month for a couple of hours. Why did you want to be a part of that? Like, why is it important for us as Christians to be in community with not just other Christians, but other Christians who are ambitious for their careers?

Yeah, I mean, I joined primarily to meet new people and be connected because everything I do is so isolated. You know, I don't have a team that I work with. I have a little bit of a contractor team, but they're all remote all over the world. And so I don't. I'm literally alone, you know, and I've been alone for 10 years. So part of me is that aching for community, just to talk to other people that are like me. And even in my church, there's not many entrepreneurs. I can only think of one or two. So even the people in my Christian community don't understand the way I think or what I do for a living or the burdens that I bear that are unique to being an entrepreneur. And then the entrepreneurs that I know are not Christians. So to have both together was really important to me, but also accountability, too. I feel like it's really scary that God has given us a business that's super successful. It's like, do you really trust me, God? Like, a lot of money is a lot of responsibility. I could just derail this whole thing and just do it for me. So I even, like, having, like, the money conversation is very interesting to me. Like, I want. And we haven't really dived into this a lot yet in the collaboratory, but even offline conversations we can have with the guys in the group. I want to know how other entrepreneurs who are Christians think about stewarding their wealth. Yeah. Personally, like, I want to ask questions like, how much house is too much house? Right. How much car is too much car? Real question again. Maybe that's the one in me. Is it?

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

What's the right car? But also, I just. I want to be able to be in the light and have other people who understand the I say problems, you know, air struggle. The struggle of, like, I want to be held accountable by somebody that understands similar situations. So that was one reason why I joined. And then also I learned. I think I've learned the most in business by looking at other industries. Yeah, I don't like to just stay in my little pool.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I'm really good actually ignoring my industry and better at paying attention to other industries. And I don't know if I consciously decided to do that, but it has served me well. So I wanted to join a group of people that don't do what I do at all.

What industries have you as a content producer? Right. Like which industries have you learned the most from?

Like everything that's just different. So like I'll look at airlines, like how they structured their pricing of things. Like I learned a lot about like upsells and priority service and stuff. And premium products from airlines, like first class flights are just fascinating to me, you know?

Fascinating.

It's just a fascinating business model. I offer super ultra premium stuff that doesn't make sense for most people looking at technology companies like the Apples and the Amazons. Like I look at them and the way that they think about products. Like I don't look at digital content creators really, especially not in the audio space. Like when I started and there's a bunch of us audio blogger people and we, we found each other, we were friends and I have friends and I like them, but I never paid attention to their businesses. In fact, maybe it's insecurity, but the more I'm on everyone's email list that's doing what I'm doing and I see all the awesome stuff they're doing, the more insecure I feel about myself. So I had to just unsubscribe from all my friends.

So you don't pay attention to competition?

No, I don't either.

And I've always like felt self conscious about this, but like I really.

Best thing ever.

So you're like all in on it? You don't think it's a weakness?

No, I think it's a superpower to ignore. Now, to be aware of best practices can be helpful, but I actually even.

Think that's overrated because I think you could find most of the time better best practices in other industries.

Well, yeah, I just don't care what, I don't care what they're doing because I don't serve them.

You know, they're not your customer.

They're not my customers.

They're never gonna pay you.

No. And I see it in other small industries. Like if you look at. So my wife's a photographer and I've interacted with a lot of photographers. If you look at photographers, let's say wedding photographers, I'm gonna pick on wedding photographers. All their websites are the same.

Exactly.

Because they just copy each other and they're all awful. Like there's a very few select People that are crushing it. And if you look at their sites, they're different. Like, so many of these photographers, their whole about me section is really about them. And your about page should never really be a about you. It should be about your customer. It should be, like, qualifying. Like, who are we for? We help you do this. But they're all flowery about me, and I feel like they all look the same. And how do you know that that person you're copying is effective? You don't. So I've been really served well by ignorance. It's good for my soul, so I don't get too insecure. But then it allows me to keep my head down and just think about, what am I good at? What are the problems that my customers are facing? How can I serve them?

I love this idea of, like, selective ignorance, like, conscious ignorance. So I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast, but, like, I don't read news, like, period, full stop. Like, my. My information consumption is almost zero, right? So. And that includes, like, competitors. Now, when I need information, I think this is like, Tim Ferriss, like, 101, right? When I need information, I go out and I find it. Right. And I hear about, like, truly important things in conversation. So do you read news?

So I am weird in that I get an actual newspaper delivered to us every day.

So I actually love that idea. I don't know why I like that. But, like, when Kara and I go away for a weekend, like, we'll always read the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times, and, like, that seems to be, like, very relaxing.

You know why I, like, physically, this is maybe a tangent, but why I physically like a newspaper is because, again, going back to overwhelm, scrolling through CNN or scrolling through USA Today, it never ends.

It's finite in a newspaper.

Yeah, newspaper's finite. This was all the important news for 24 hours. And, like, you get a sense of accomplishment where I just feel like I just lose my soul when I'm on Twitter or just. It never ends, so it never satiates.

Yeah, it's like all the news that's fit to print, but on the Internet, that's unlimited. So. Hey, I know you've gotten some advice in the past that I want to talk about. I think anytime somebody has a large audience or a large platform, be it a million YouTube subscribers or a professional athlete or Justin Bieber whose newly found Christ, Praise the Lord, I think there's this expectation that we're gonna automatically start talking about Jesus everywhere. We go. Right. Okay. Am I getting you fired up? All right, so I don't even have to ask the question. You've made a very conscious decision not to do that. You've been told, hey, you have a million YouTube followers. Why aren't you sharing the gospel? I think that advice is well intentioned, but I think it comes from some pretty old thinking and maybe some bad theology. Talk about your.

I'm so glad you brought this. So I. This is interesting to me. So lately I've been having. There's people in my life that have been giving me this calf list. Do you see how big your following is? And what they're saying is exactly what you're saying. Are you stewarding that audience? Well, shouldn't you be sharing about Jesus? And that's never made sense to me in what they're saying, or they want me to make a video explaining the gospel. Right. Because, you know, maybe people will unsubscribe, but at least for a moment, half a million people will listen.

The modern day track dropped into YouTube video format.

Boom. Right? And I never liked tracks anyway. So this is probably one of the things that drew me to you. It makes so much more sense to me, at least that. Okay, so here's a personal example. My buddy, who's a pastor, and he's still the pastor of my church, and I love him to death. We had early conversations on when we started the church where even before then he counseled me to become a pastor. And he was like, bro. Because again, he saw communication skills, maybe teaching. He said, you should go to seminary. You'd be a great pastor.

You would be.

Well, I appreciate it. And I felt both the. I admired him, so I'm gonna take what he says and really respect it. I thought, wow, finally maybe something I could be good at and it'd be for the Lord, you know, like, check the boxes.

All caps. Exactly.

So I was like, this sounds great. And I started to tell people I'm gonna go to seminary and be a pastor. But it never actually never settled in my heart. Like there was never like God, God never said, yes, however you want to define. I never felt God's hand being like, yes. Like, I always felt like a lot of hang ups and closed doors and just like slow movement and not a lot of excitement. So I felt guilt because I now I'm blogging about audio. That's like, how spiritual is that? But what's I always joke about with my pastor buddy because, like, he's been focused on ministry for years and has had impacts with so many people. But he jokes on me now. He's like, bro, you have impact with so many more people than I do because you got a half million people every month that watch your videos in over 200 countries. Like, that's incredible. So he sees it now, and I see now in retrospect, God snuck me in to have an impact in a different way to more people. So I've had a larger impact because I haven't been, A, reaching Christian specifically, but B, because I haven't been just sharing the gospel on my videos. People don't. They come to me because they want their music to sound good, or on the second brand, they come to me because they want to learn how to start an online business. So I better deliver that. And I love that Martin Luther quote that I don't know if really was Martin Luther. But, you know, a good Christian cobbler isn't a good Christian cobbler because he puts crosses on the shoes because he makes good shoes. And so I'm trying to make good shoes. That's how people trust me. And you talk about being winsome, and I think that is the best word. Like, people, A, I deliver what they're looking for, okay? Like, any business that does a good job can do that. Okay? I like this brand. I trust this brand. But it gives me the opportunity to speak into their life. Because as a content creator, I can share whatever I want to share. So I'm very intentional about pushing my worldview, and I push it in ways that I think might be connecting with them. So I don't share Jesus all the time. What I share is the value of family, the value of church. Talk about going to church like it's a normal thing, just like anybody else. Whatever they do is normal is normal to them. I talk about generosity. I talk about not working, overworking. So I'm trying to combat overwork and workaholism. I talk about serving people. So I'm trying to teach about Christian principles to be light and darkness. And what's crazy is that just by being an open Christian and then doing your work and not hiding that I'm a Christian, because some people hide that they're Christian. And I've actually had marketing people tell me, you need to hide that you're a Christian. And I won't do that. No, I'll be a blatant Christian.

Thank you.

That's the point of being alive as a Christian is let people know that you're different. But that is a lot of times enough to get people there's people that have emailed. It's the craziest thing. People that have emailed me through the audio side of things. Right. Email me saying I was considering suicide. But after watching your videos, your music, audio videos, by the way, and just learning about you, like, I decided to not commit suicide. I went, I found a church. I walked into a church one day and God saved me, you know, or people that were following the Lord and walked away. A lot of those who are like, well, this guy doesn't seem like a crazy person and he still goes to church. Maybe I missed something, or maybe I was burned by a pastor, but I missed something. Maybe I need to go to a different church. So people have gone back. A lot of returning people to the faith or just people who are spiritual who like to dive in with me and talk about, you know, they say the universe gave them this, and I say God and they think it's the same and it's not. But. But we can have conversations about there's something bigger than just living for self.

Yeah.

And so is given me so many doors that are open just by serving people well and not dropping the virtual tract on them.

Man, I love how you think about this. Right? I think, you know, so often we feel like to be the most effective Christians, we have to be sharing the gospel every chance we get. Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself. And that was a complete sentence, right? Yeah, love it. Love. Love your neighbor. Love your neighbor well. Serve them well. And by the way, when you do, when you do masterful work, you are winsome. You're fulfilling Jesus command to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world. And people just naturally gravitate to that. Right. People see light even when you're not talking about the explicit capital L light of the world by just being you, by being a Christian, by having the Holy Spirit and going into these dark places that you couldn't enter if you were dropping tracks every chance you got. So. So, man, I just, I want to commend you for the work you're doing. Thank you for serving these 500,000 people well through the ministry of excellence. Thank you for your commitment to Christ. Thank you for your commitment to generosity and sharing that you're being generous and sharing what it is to live like Christ through your products. So anyways, I'm just such a big fan of yours. So, hey, three questions I like to ask every guest to wrap up the conversation. Number one, what book do you give to others the most? Or books?

Yeah, it would probably Be the go giver, huh?

By the way.

Yeah, I haven't read it. Oh, dude, you'd love it. It's like the most Christian, non Christian.

It really is.

It's Philippians, chapter two. Like, the whole book is, you know, don't do anything out of selfish ambition. He doesn't realize this, but don't do anything out of selfish ambition or conceit, but instead view others more important than yourself. Right. Look out for not only for your own needs, but for the needs of others. That's like chapter two, three, and four. And then it goes on to look at how Christ did that for us. But that's a life verse for me in a way of like, the way to be winsome. The way to connect with people is to look out for their needs above your own. You become attractive. Right? But that whole book, and it's written like a little parable, and it's about sales and selling, but it's just so beautiful because it's all about, stop worrying about that. Your fist is so tight, like, getting yours and making sure you have enough and getting the sale and holding on. It's like, let go and serve other people even if it costs you something. And their belief is that the universe will, you know, like, it just works out for them. We know that that's just the way God designed things. Generosity is sewn into the fabric of his universe that he created. And it's sowing and reaping and it's all Second Corinthians, chapter nine. It. Paul knows this, but that book put, like, practical words and pictures to the way I believe my business model is set up by God. And I read it probably four years into my business was like, that's my business.

Yeah.

And so I love it because it's such an easy read. And I just. I give it to people because it gets them to think about how can I make other people's lives better, which is entrepreneurship.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, second question. What one person would you most like to hear talk about this intersection of faith, of work, maybe on this podcast.

Oh, to have on the podcast.

Yeah.

Can you get Tim Keller on here?

You're the third vote for Tim. So I would just like you. We gotta invite Tim.

Yeah, we gotta invite Tim. Yeah.

Well, I wouldn't do any talking. I would just sit here and listen to that soothing voice of Tim Keller talk for. There'd be a three hour interview. Yeah.

Yeah.

All right. So, Tim, what one piece of advice would you give to somebody who's in the audience Right now, maybe pursuing mastery of their vocation, really any vocation, but particularly for the entrepreneur, like, what would you say to that person who wants to start a business, wants to start a blog, wants to start a YouTube channel? What's the number one piece of advice from a master content creator and entrepreneur like yourself?

I just view content as sharing. It's the most Christian thing you can do. Everyone is given different gifts from the spirit. Everyone is made different. So stop worrying about what other people are doing with their content or the way God's blessed them, even other Christians. But what has God given you to share? And that's all good content is, is you don't have to be an expert yet, or maybe you won't ever get to expert status in your own definition, but you have something that you could share now. And good content this day and age is just sharing because it's authentic and real. And the guru kind of thing is dissolving people want. Want real humans who have something to share. And you can start that today.

Absolutely. So, hey, if you want to connect with Graham and learn more from him, I can't recommend that highly enough. You can go to grahamcochran.com that's G R A H A M C O C H R A N E dot com. Did I get it?

You got it.

Great. And hey, we're having dinner tomorrow night.

Dude. I'm pumped, though, that, like, it's 48.

Hours of 48 hours of Jordan. Yeah. So Graham and his wife Shea live here in Tampa, where Kara and I live. And Shay's also a member of the collaboratory. Shay's also going to be on this podcast. You'll hear her episode soon. So we're all going to dinner tomorrow night. If I still have a voice after recording all these.

After all, just stop doing a bunch in a row. Doing 17 podcasts in a row.

Exactly. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Whether you're an entrepreneur or not, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with my friend, Graham Cochran. Hey, listen, if you are interested in entrepreneurship, there's going to be a lot more conversations with people like Graham on this show. Now, we're interviewing people across a bunch of different disciplines. So we're talking to teachers, we're talking to people in corporate America, we're talking to authors. But by nature of the fact that I myself, and I'm entrepreneur, we're going to be talking with a lot more people like Graham. So if you like this episode, make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss an episode that we release in the future. And if you're already subscribed to the show, do me a favor, take 30 seconds and go review the podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you have no idea how to do that, how to do either of those things, subscribe or review, go to jordanraynor.com podcast we've made it really, really simple for you to do both of those things again. That's Jordan jordanraynor.com podcast thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next time.