Haejin Shim Fujimura (Attorney)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We, we talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Today's guest is Heejin Shim Fujimura. And if that name sounds familiar, it's because Hejin is the bride of Makoto Fujimura, who was my guest on the Call to Mastery back in January. One of my favorite episodes all time of the show. Anyways, Hedgin is an attorney who has two high profile roles. First, she's the CEO of Embers International, which serves victims of injustice in India. And secondly, she's the managing partner of Shimon Associates, where she has successfully litigated over 450 lawsuits on behalf of businesses very big and very, very small, from startups to publicly traded companies. Hedgin and I sat down and we talked about how she sees her work fighting human trafficking and her work as a civil litigator as kingdom work. We talked about the wild story of Hedgin standing in front of a painting and feeling like she had been transported into another world and given a glimpse of the eternal kingdom of heaven. And we talked about why Adam and Eve can be seen as the first lawyers of the world, even before the fall. You guys are gonna love this conversation with my new friend, Hedgin Shim Fujimura. Hedgin, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, so we were just talking about having your husband Mako here a couple of months ago. Honestly, that was one of my favorite episodes of this podcast. It just came out a few months ago, but it's extraordinary. So if you're listening and have not listened to that episode with Makoto Fujimura, go listen to that and then come back to Hedgin. So I was curious, how did you and Mako meet? I don't think I know this story.

Oh my. How much time do we have?

As much as you want. Go for it.

I mean, we have quite a story about meeting Marco And I have a lot of mutual friends. Like, a lot, because we went to the same church, unbeknownst to us, of course. And you know, how Marco has lived his life as an artist. He was not only an artist, but also an advocate. So he started organization called I Am Culture care from the 90s. And so we have a very similar path because as as a lawyer, I have my own legal practice, but I also lead an organization called Embers International. So I am an advocate while being everyday lawyer. And so we have this very similar kind of track of life. And in the midst of that, being in New York City, going to the same church in kind of different seasons, but we have just a lot of mutual friends. And I had this training at Wedeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, the church that Tim Keller founded. There's a training called Gotham Fellowship.

Yeah.

Oh, great. So I was part of that, like, more than 10 years ago. I also TA'd, you know, the following year. So I was in this studio space where we met on a weekly basis for two years. Didn't know whose office space or studio space it was, and it was Marco's studio. And so he was painting for holy Gospels in the back while we're meeting in the front side of office, which was used for I Am Culture Care. Didn't know him. Didn't know of him. Probably somebody told me about him, but it never registered to me in my database. So I met Marco's art about three years before I met Marco personally. And then by the time, I didn't know Marco as an artist either. So it really wasn't in my radar. I was in this gallery space in New York City because the gallery owner asked me to come and speak to this nonprofit leaders who just started their nonprofit work. So I was there to provide pro bono counseling to these leaders, which I was happy to do. And I love art. To begin with, I'll go to Paris just for a day to go to the Louvre. So art is my language. But, you know, I never had that kind of, back then, time to just really immerse myself into it. It's just different kind of season. But I was in this gallery space waiting for these people. And I'm standing in front of this painting, and it's a giant blue painting, and it's the size of, like, entire wall of the gallery space. And I remember, I. And this may sound strange to some of you, which is okay, because we live in this very mysterious world where we see a glimpse of God's glory everywhere. And sometimes we notice it, sometimes we don't. And I'm standing in front of this giant blue painting. I remember walking into that painting. And this is not a metaphorical or analogous expression. It was an actual experience. So. So in this painting, I met and it was just initially a blue painting. But in that painting, I saw and met and experienced this beautiful nature. And it looked kind of like forest. And if you have seen Lord of the Rings, there is a forest scene with the walking trees. So it kind of looks like that, but it is not that. So it wasn't a piece of memory in my database that just was brought out. It wasn't that at all. It was something very new, but I was able to recognize it as a nature. And then there were all these animals. And I can recognize them as animals, but I couldn't recognize them. So there was something so new. And I hung out there. I play with them, and it felt like hours, but I bet it's probably like couple minutes from the outside of the painting perspective. But I played there for hours. And then I came out. And when you have.

You stepped into the wardrobe.

I stepped into the wardrobe, Exactly. Oh, thank you, Jordan. You get it. And so, you know, when you have this extraordinary experience or something so unusual, what will be your very first reaction or question or response? What happened? What was that? But I didn't ask that question, Jordan, because I knew so intuitively and affirmatively that I knew what just happened. Like, I just knew what I just experienced. I just experienced a glimpse of new creation.

Amen.

I walk into this new Jerusalem, this wardrobe, and this painting was the portal. And not only a portal, but actual piece of new creation that is gifted to us to decide the side of eternity. So I just knew what happened. So my very first question was, who is this artist?

This is so good.

Because I just knew that at that moment, God chose this particular artist, in his grace, to anoint him, to paint something that is a piece of new creation, a portal into new creation, a way to invite us into his glory and his beauty. So, you know, years later, we met. And we actually met not through any of our mutual friends, which we have a ton of. And even after my encounter with his art, we. We didn't have any. I didn't seek him out or anything like that. I just kind of put that to my heart because I wanted God to. I wanted just to wait on God and see how he wants to use this experience because it was a gift to me as well, because I just experienced something extraordinary. So I kind of put that aside, and then just waited on him. And then when I met Marco, of course, I was really excited because, you know, by the time he became my favorite artist, I didn't tell him that. Of course, when we started dating, I.

Just wanted to be fangirling on your first date.

Right, Exactly. So. But, you know, he became a huge fan, actually, of. Of the work that, you know, my team is doing with Embers International. But I'll tell you that story a little bit later. So we met, and then, of course, we fell in love and we got engaged. So after we got engaged, and by the time I didn't actually share the story with him because I didn't want. I mean, meet as a person to person. Right. So I didn't share the story, but after we got engaged, I shared this story with him and I said, marco, where is that painting? Yeah. And then he said, oh, it's been sold to a collector.

No.

So I. I couldn't understand. So I asked God, God, why I thought that was my painting. And God in his grace and abundance, of course, he's so funny. God said, my child, do you want the painting? I'll give you the artist.

I love that.

So that's what happened.

That's so great. That's an amazing story. All right, you've touched on Embers International a couple times. Tell us what Embers International is and a little bit about the work you guys do.

Yeah. Thank you. Embers International is a nonprofit organization that does global work. We focus on India right now, but our mission, our mission is to protect, restore, and empower those who are marginalized and especially the victims of injustice. And our focus right now is victims of trafficking and particular sex trafficking. And even among that population, our focus is to end violence and generational exploitation for children who are born into Brussels. So what we do is we catalyze transforming experience for these communities that have been oppressed generationally because of the poverty and caste and the social fabric that makes them a very easy victim of injustice and violence. So I've been doing this work of anti trafficking, anti sex trafficking in particular, for over two decades by now. I started my work with International Justice Mission when I was in law school, and I continued my journey with them ever since then. I was in different capacities as a volunteer, as a gala committee, and so forth for New York City for International Justice Mission. And then eight years ago, I had this opportunity to go to India and meet the people that we've been supporting in this anti trafficking work. And when I went to India in God's grace, he brought me to a brothel as undercover. And it's a scary thing, it's a dangerous endeavor. But God really wanted to show me the depth of despair. So in that brothel, which is just a small, not even 7ft by 6ft kind of space that's dark and filthy and it's something that I never could even imagine how people can actually live here. It's such an inhumane condition that you just feel in your spirit, in your skin, the sense of filthiness and danger. And in this space I met a woman who's been trafficked for a decade by now and still young woman because she was trafficked when she was a teenager. And you know, I've been working to rescue, you know, this type of woman who's been just such a victim of exploitation for by that time, about 12 years. But what didn't occur to me until then and in God's grace, he had to actually show it to me so I can really experience it, is the children who are born into brothels, the second and third and fourth generation who's trapped in this cycle of exploitation. And so there in this room with this woman, I met her daughter who's six months old. And I remember so wanting to just grab her and run away because I could see in front of my eyes what her life is going to be. Her life is going to be just like her mother. And she wouldn't know anything outside of this brothel. She's not going to have any opportunity to be educated and know the outside world, to have the kind of will of her own, to understand the human dignity and what humanity really means. She's just going to be living in this terror and be in a way groomed into this trade. And you know, human trafficking and human slavery is number two money making crime in the world after drug trafficking. So that's why at the end of the day, it's all about money to exploit someone else so you can make money, which is just most inhumane thing that you can think of. So God showed me that eight years ago and I just knew that we need to do something about this population, this generation. And when you have two generations or even three generation living in a brothel and be exploited in this way, and children whose life is destined at birth to live in this tragic life, you can't just rescue one person at a time. We have to have a solution as to how we can break this chain and end violence for good with intergenerational empowerment approach. So about four years ago, Embers International was founded and started its operation in India, particularly in Mumbai, to have this generational approach to not only protect, but also restore and empower so that the mother and the children, they can exit the brothel and enter into a life of not only freedom, but sustainable freedom.

I love it so much. I love the work you guys are doing. So you actually have two roles, though, right? You're CEO of Embers International, which we've just been talking about, but you're also the managing partner of your own law firm, Shim and Associates.

Tell us a little bit about the.

Type of law you practice in that firm.

Sure. I practice mainly civil litigation and business law. So my clients are all kind of businesses, companies, business owners, and they range from startups. I love startups and entrepreneurs, all the way to publicly traded company. I practice litigation at a different law firm for the first eight years, almost eight years of my legal career. And then now, 10 years ago, I started my law firm and have rebranded along the way. So Shimano Associates is going to be celebrating its 10th year this year, which is really exciting. And I wanted to create a law firm where not only do we provide the excellent legal services, but also create a space where lawyers love their work. And it's really difficult to find lawyers who actually love their work. They might.

I know a lot of them who don't.

Oh, you do? Oh, who don't. That's right. It's really sad because legal practice is this phenomenal opportunity to serve the world. And lawyers, those of us who go to law school with, you know, a passion for this profession, actually have a high respect for the profession. But a lot of times, the working environment and how we measure our success by the world's standard make us really be in a sad situation where we actually, like, don't like being in the workspace. So, you know, I saw that quite a bit in the first eight years of my legal career, and I didn't want to be in that space myself. I didn't want my friends to be in that space. So I wanted to create a space where lawyers and also the support staff actually like coming into the office and working together and working for our clients. And of course, I won't be able to hire all the lawyers in the world, but I wanted to become a model and just kind of show to the world that, hey, this is actually possible. You can have a beautiful working space for lawyers. And I think that leads to serving our clients better.

I think it's obvious for our listeners to see how the work you do at Embers International is, quote, unquote, kingdom work, right?

Yes.

It's probably less obvious how civil litigation in a law firm is kingdom work. And I think you've started to answer the question, but I want you to go there a little bit more explicitly. Do you see both organizations as vehicles for advancing the kingdom? And if so, how?

Oh, absolutely, and thank you for that question. So I'll tell you briefly, I think if you go to my, my website and under my bio, there is a little bit longer lecture on what it means to be a lawyer. But I think we have to start with the idea of what law is. I think we. We look at, I think when we evaluate any profession or any work, I think it's easy for us to just go to, like, what's happening and what kind of result that you are creating. But I think we need to take time to go back to the origin and why we practice. So first of all, what is law? We have so many different types of law in this world. We have civil litigation, which I practice, business law that I practice. Also we have family law, employment law, environmental law. I mean, so many different. So when I went to law school with a very clear vision of why I wanted to become a lawyer, which I get to actually live out now, which is so fortunate, but I realized how many different types of laws exist and how each one of them really affect the fabric of our society. And then if you look at it even deeper, law is all about relationship. So business law is about relationship between two businesses, or it could be even a business and a consumer. Environmental law is about relationship between us and the environment and those who have a control over that. And family law, so obvious it's between family relationships and so forth. So if you take any type of law, it's all about relationship. And what law does is two things. Either the relationship is broken, and this is what we see more often. We see two relationships broken. So law is there to help the relationship, relationships brokenness, get resolved or repaired or help the parties to move on from the brokenness. So lawyers come in and we are the repairer and the mender of that relationship. And when we do that, we of course bring in that knowledge of what the relationship was supposed to be and how it was broken and bring a solution, a possible solution, how that can be resolved. And sometimes it can be more contentious or not. But ultimately the idea is that how do we restore this relationship? Another side is when the relationships are not broken, lawyers come in because the relationship is about to. About to be formed, or the relationship Wants to take the relationship to another level. So let's say mergers and acquisitions. Right. So you have two companies coming together and they want to create this new relationship and enter into a new season. That's where lawyers come in. And what we do is really create, whether it's a contract or a structure. And it's really about educating the clients as well, helping them understand what the responsibilities and rights and obligations and boundaries are so that these parties were involved in this new relationship can understand what they are supposed to do to bring that relationship to a place of flourishing.

Yeah, it's all about setting the framework for human flourishing is how you do that.

Absolutely, absolutely. And law is so vital and it's such a gift from God. How I see it, law was given pre fall. It wasn't because of the fall of man that God had to give us rules for us to follow so we can live within the boundary. I really believe that law was given at the time of creation.

Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about that. This is interesting.

So when God created. I love talking about this, by the way, Jordan, so thank you for the question. So when God created the world in the first six days, he first three days he created the form, right? The space and then time and the structure. And then the last three days he filled that form with animals and plants and human and stars and sun and moon. And what he did was I am creating this space and time as a boundary. And then I'm going to give each agent so whether it's the sun, moon and stars will govern the time. So we know when the sun rises and we know it's a day and so forth. And then I'm going to put these parameters for the fish to live and flourish within the boundaries of water. We have the animals and plants. And I'm going to have the human as my agent to govern and take care of my creation. So God has created this world where everybody has to play its role. And the idea of agency of these creatures governing the time, humans taking care of the earth, this idea of agency is actually a legal idea.

Yeah, this is good. Yeah.

We have a principal who is God giving his authority to the agent to take care of his creation. And when principal does, that principle actually does not give away the right, but the agent has the same authority that is given to the agent within limited scope that the principal has given. And we have the freedom to exercise that right and authority to do what we are called to do, which is to take care of and steward this world and image.

The principle on behalf of the principal and his values.

Exactly, exactly. And that is a legal principle. And God didn't need to do that. Right. He didn't need to first of all create, but he did that out of love and he wanted to share his authority with us so that we can store this creation for his glory and our enjoyment. And that was given to us at the time of creation.

Yeah. So there's this passing the baton to his agents in the beginning, but there's also a passing of the baton post fall, post resurrection, post the inauguration of the kingdom of God. Right. Jesus could have brought the kingdom in full, could have brought heaven to earth on the first Easter Sunday, but he didn't. Right. He's doing that work, at least in part through you and me. So it's kind of a wild idea to think about. Right. We understand that God's going to carry out ultimate judgment, ultimate justice for every deed ever. And yet he's called people like you to fight for justice at a micro scale in the present. What do you make of that? How do you think about this? Is this a tension like what do you make of this?

I think no, that's a great question. And I think we can ponder over this for days, but just to briefly share how I think about that is God has invited us into this incredible journey towards new creation. So the post resurrection life that we have here with this beautiful understanding of, although limited because we are limited, but beautiful understanding of who Jesus is and Jesus to come, we live in this between time with this, as you beautifully described, this work that we are called to do to bring this beautiful sense of justice and peace and shalom in this earth. I think it's such a beautiful invitation for us to partake in God's work of restoring this world and bringing new creation into this world. And we get to do that here and now. And those are not just, in my opinion, like a sample or just a little trick for us to see it, but it's actually new creation breaking in to this side of eternity. So when we see justice and ultimately this problem of human trafficking and exploitation of women and children is a God size burden, it's a long and hard journey, but we get to journey with God and be part of this work. And what God is saying is that you did it with me, which is just really incredible honor. But when we do that, and we need to do it more and better and deeper, new creation actually is breaking into this side of eternity and it's not going to be something that goes away at the Time of judgment. And it's not going to be burned into, you know, something that we cannot grasp anymore, but it will be with us. It's the idea of kings marching in to New Jerusalem. There's the beauty that we see in Isaiah and Revelation. So, yeah, I think that's why when we do, you know, when I do my work as Joseph's advocate, I have this satisfaction that whatever I'm doing is actually is going to stay whatever that God chooses to hold on to for the new Jerusalem. I mean, it's going to be glorified and it's going to be even better, and it's going to be all for God's glory. But it's not in vain.

This is 1 Corinthians 15:58.

Yes.

Somehow, crazy as it sounds miraculous, even as the resurrection itself, the work of the Lord, the work we do in the Spirit in the Lord, quote, is not in vain, Somehow God's gonna take it and refine it and wipe away all of its impurities, and it's gonna last into eternity. It's incredible.

Amen. Amen.

Hey, I know Mako's a big fan of Surprised By Hope By N.T. wright. I'm assuming you've read the book as well.

Absolutely. That book, you know, that book changed my mind.

I mean, this is what we're talking about, right? We're basically just quoting Surprise by Hope right now. But I think it's. This is interesting. So NT Wright focuses in the latter half of that book on these three facets of the mission of the church. Right. Evangelism, beauty and justice. And I love that you and Mako in this marriage are focused on two of these things, justice and beauty. So I'm curious, is there a way in which these two seemingly disconnected things, justice and beauty, connect and work together to advance the kingdom?

Oh, yes. So when we met, God has given us a new language that we have been pondering in our respective lives before even we met. And when I seek justice, and I've been doing this over two decades now, I don't seek it for the just sake of justice. The reason why I'm seeking justice is because I want to see beauty restored. And it's not just the beauty at the end of justice, but along the journey of justice. So as a very concrete example, when we rescued this one particular girl from a brothel, our team asks her question, what do you want? Kind of like how Jesus asks us a question, what do you want? And this is a hard question for a trauma victim because they, first of all, growing up and being born into a lowest caste and into extreme poverty. People never ask that question to anybody. And you don't really get to think about it because it's not part of your life. So first of all, having something that you desire is a really healthy sign of humanity. So but this is a difficult question, but this particular girl really surprised us and moved us because when we asked that question, what do you want? She said, I want to be beautiful again. Because this trauma, this victimization, this exploitation has taken that away from her. But she desires, so desire to be beautiful again. And so when justice is not pursuing beauty throughout the way and for the restoration of that beauty and ultimately creating new type of beauty, this justice is not going to be satisfying to us. Marco and I have been doing this talk on beauty and justice for some time now. And at this one event we were able to share very, very briefly how closely they are connected. And actually, in fact, beauty without justice and justice without beauty is really not complete. And in that event we had a Japanese ambassador to the UN who was attending the event and just he's not a Christian, but wonderfully open minded person. And at the end of that event he came over and he said, you know, your talk on beauty and justice really moved me because I travel the world and I saw justice being cruel and not beautiful and I want to see beautiful justice. When Marco creates beautiful art, there are certain resonance to it. So this beauty kind of emanates light and sound and it resonates with people. But what he says is that if the resonance of my art doesn't reach the darkest places of the world, it's not complete. So I think true beauty has that power of being resonant into places. But how much more powerful is it that when it resonates into the darkest places? So I think, I think ultimately what we do every single day, whether you're practicing law or creating art or something else, we are seeking what is true, good and beautiful. And justice is what is true, good and beautiful and beauty is the same. Right? So I don't think you can have something good and not beautiful. Right. I think it's not the separate, three separate categories that we're seeking, but what we are seeking is true good and beautiful and justice, the true meaning of justice embodies that and same as beauty. And briefly, if you look up the original word for justice and righteousness in the Bible, it talks about restoration, it talks about all relationship being shalom in this beautiful, peaceful, flourishing state. So when God's justice and righteousness is in place, you will have that beauty because the relationship is going to be restored and it's going to be in a flourishing state. And we call that beautiful. So justice without beauty is something that cannot be actually discussed. It won't be complete.

Yeah, this is really good. We were talking before we started recording about my friend Victor Boutros and the Human Trafficking Institute. I know you're familiar with their work and is speaking about. We were talking about just how to be effective at this means of justice and specifically in this area of trafficking. And Victor made an interesting point. You know, he said, yeah, the best groups are the ones that focus on mastering a really small piece of the puzzle.

Right.

So for example, Victor and team, they focus exclusively on teaching law enforcement officials how to prosecute traffickers. That's all they do. Right. And they leave victim care to other experts. It sounds like you share a similar perspective on this. You're not fighting trafficking in general. It's like real narrow, real focused. We're helping to free and provide justice to these multigenerational women who are growing up in these brothels. Is that, Am I reading this right? Are you guys hyper focused in this effort? And if so, why?

Oh, great question. And the short answer is yes. And to the why question, you know, we have amazing organizations who's doing great work in the areas that we're in already. So we have partners who are doing rescue and intervention work. So they're the ones who are working with the police, doing the raid and actually bringing the victims out of the brothel. What we are doing is something that is a lot more visible because we're creating a community of people that surround these multi generation so that we can tell this red light district and the community in there that you cannot touch our people. So we say it takes a village to raise a child. So what we are doing is we are creating that village, but not in a kind of mega massive way, but in a very concentrated way. So we have a children's center that we built in a red light in Mumbai where we're providing daycare, which is even just globally. Number one reason why women, especially mothers, cannot take legitimate employment because they can't take care of their child. So we started with the daycare and then so we're just setting the foundation of this village, right? So we have a daycare that we take care of children from age 2 all the way to the teenager years. We're sending our children to private school and showing them that, yes, there is a world outside of this. I never wanted our children to be competing amongst themselves by starting a school in the red light just for them. I wanted to send them out to private schools and learn amongst children who are from different background and learn the world that's outside of the red light even though they are still living there because of other circumstances. And so we have an education program, we have a counseling programs, but our focus is really to help this multi generation and a lot of times a two generation to exit and live a different life. And we haven't seen that many models out there in fact. And we're still creating a model where that is possible. I have, I mean there are great organizations who are rescuing just a child. But what happens with that is. And I think that's really important work and I just have a highest respect for them. But what I realized was that when a child is rescued, of course with the consent of the mother who is still in the brothel, the child becomes an orphan, will have to grow up as an orphan. And I'm just thinking about a situation where we can rescue both of them so they can actually start living as a family. Continue to live as a family and start living the freedom together and be an inspiration. And as they go through empowerment program together. So child will be going to school and the mother will be also learning life skills, but also vocational skills to be economically empowered. But they can become inspiration to each other.

Yeah, yeah. No, this is so good. I just love the laser like focus, like this is what we're good at. This is the small piece of this very big puzzle that we're going to really master. I just think that's great advice for listeners in any vocation, whether you're fighting human trafficking or trying to build a business, whatever it is, figuring out what God's equipped you to do most exceptionally well in service of him and others and just leaving the rest to other people that can really master that particular work. So that's really, really great hedging. Hey, three questions I love to wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

Oh, great question. Can I do a shameless shout out to my husband's Book of Art and a Theology of Making that is just incredibly beautiful book and very important. And so you just, you should read it. And there's a reader's guide that's on Yale University Press website that is free for you to download and that is not to just help you read the book, but it's to help you create a community along with the book. So that will be really helpful. But if I can easily.

It was easily one of the best books I've read in the last year. It's terrific.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. And another book that I've given away, maybe at least 2,000 copies, is a devotional book called Seeking God's Face. And it's compiled by Philip Reynders. This is, it's like a brown leather bound. It goes through the church calendar and it's a beautiful book. And I use that book for three consecutive years to do my devotional. It will enrich your life and especially your daily devotional life.

I've got to read this. What's the name of it again?

Seeking God's Face.

Great. I wrote it down. This is great. All right, Hye Jin, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes their work in the world?

I would love for you to consider inviting Pastor Guy Rodriguez. So G U I and then Rodrigues. And he, well, he has a Portuguese last name, but he's Indian, Indian national. He is the chief vision officer of Embers International and the partner that I have in India. The inspiration and vision behind everything Embers does. So. And he's just incredibly humble, loving man. And I, you know, we, you and I, we met a lot of Christians in our lives and you know, I'm a fourth generation Christian in my mother's side, so I met a lot of people, but I will say, even including our family members, that Pastor Guy is the man who resembles Jesus to me, the most beautiful. How so? Love. So the way that he loves people, the motivations behind everything, and I think most, most of all his sacrificial love in his service. So I will love to, for, for you and then the, the listeners to hear from him.

Yeah, that's great. Connect me with him. I, I'd really appreciate that. And all right, before we sign off hedging, you're talking to an audience of Christ followers who do a lot of different things vocationally. We got lawyers in the audience, we've got startup entrepreneurs, we've got marketers and stay at home parents. What they share is a deep belief that their work matters for eternity and a commitment to doing it really, really well as a result. What's one thing that you want to leave them with before we sign off? Hedgin?

When I started as a, as a lawyer, I guess, you know, even before I, before that, I think when I went to law school, I had an opportunity to speak to now my mentor, Gary Haugen, who's the founder of International Justice Mission and one of the most effective lawyers of our time. And he. There's a couple things he told me, but I think one thing that he told me, maybe I'll share both of them, actually. First he said, you got to learn about God, who's a God of justice, if you're going to be a justice advocate. So if you are an artist, learn more about God, who is an artist.

Amen.

If you are entrepreneur, learn about God, who's an entrepreneur.

Amen.

And I think that takes every day learning. So ever since I became a lawyer, and I've been a lawyer for 18 years now, there's one question that I ask God every single day, even today, which is, God, what does it mean to be a lawyer? Teach me. Teach me today. And that is the kind of question that we need to ask God, rather than trying to just figure it out ourselves. And also just read the Bible in a way that you have that kind of lens, like, I want to learn more about you. God, who is a lawyer, who's an advocate throughout history. So that's one thing that I would love for everybody to start kind of thinking about and then practice. Ask that question to yourself and God. And two is, he said, do it with friends. You know, this is we. We are never to do any work alone. You know, even Amber's work. Yes. You know, we have this mastery over one area of anti trafficking work, but we work alongside other partners and NGOs who are doing incredible work in different ways, and we come together and we can end sex trafficking. So do it with friends. You know, they don't even have to share the same passion with you, but do it with friends that you can share your struggles and your joys and visions and learn from each other, but do it with friends. Don't be alone.

That's a good word. And this is what we see in Genesis 1. We weren't meant to do this work alone. It wasn't good for Adam to work alone. So he created Eve. And then Mako and I were talking about this when he was on the podcast. You see it again at the Resurrection, right? Jesus appearing as the gardener, the last Adam and saying, hey, it's not good for me to build the kingdom alone. So I'm inviting you, my bride, the church, to help me cultivate the kingdom of God. Hedge. And I want to commend you for the exceptional redemptive work you do every day at Embers and at Shim and Associates. Right. Thank you for reminding us of God's heart for justice and the marginalized. And just thank you for being committed to mastering your vocation for the glory of God and the good of others. Guys, if you want to learn more about hedging in her work, you can learn more@embers international.org and shimassociates.com of course, both links right here in the show notes hedging. Thank you again for joining us today.

Thank you so much, Jordan.

Man, I love that conversation. That Genesis 1 and 2 connection of Adam and Eve as agents of the Principle blew my mind. I really, really enjoyed that. Hey, if you're enjoying the call to Mastery, do me a favor. Go leave a rating of the podcast on Apple or Spotify wherever you listen to your shows. Thank you guys for tuning in. I'll see you next week.